TrueLife - Jocelyn Brady - The Authenticity Code

Episode Date: July 27, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Jocelyn Brady is a writer, edutainer and behavioral design consultant  who thrives at the intersection of comedy, storytelling and unraveling the mysteries of the human brain. When she’s not being the Bill Nye of the brain (as the creator and host of Tiny Tips, the Internet’s favorite way to Brain), Jocelyn applies her certified Brain Coaching and Tiny Habits chops to help creative visionaries play to their brains’ greatest potential.In her past life—as an award-winning copywriter, Creative Director and agency CEO—Jocelyn led narrative strategy and international storytelling training for some of the world’s biggest brands. She also produced and co-hosted Party Time, a standup comedy and storytelling show featuring talent who went on to write or perform for Conan, Colbert and Comedy Central. All while managing to keep her two cats and houseplants alive.Jocelyn’s first book, tentatively titled Your Brain is a Magical Asshat, is slated for publication next year.Jocelyn online: https://www.scribestorystudios.com/Rewrite your BS: betterbrainstories.comIG and YouTube: Jocelthem  (IG https://www.instagram.com/jocelthem/ and Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGQAm7AlSKTAyZI83f5XxaQ)LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynbrady/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope that the world is singing your praises. I hope the sun is shining, the birds are singing.

Hope the wind is at your back. I hope you've got something to do, someone to love, and something to look forward to. For most of you, it's probably this show, and it's probably this guest, the one and only, Jocelyn Brady. She's a writer, author, a keynote speaker, behavioral change consultant, story scientist, and CEO of Scribe, often referred to as the Bill Nye of Neuroscience. We're going to get into all the content she's been creating, the unique way in which she sees the world and how she can help you see it better. Jocelyn, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? What a pleasure. Thank you. You're hired. Introduce me everywhere.

Doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. Nice. Well, it's such a fascinating time to be alive. And I think that the pace of change is changing so fast. We're moving into this world that really belongs. I think the future belongs to the storytellers, the people with imagination. And I've seen so much of your content lately because I've been looking forward to talking to. you. I think that you're an amazing storyteller. And I was curious if maybe you could give people a little bit of background on your story before we get into storytelling. Yeah. Well, I was born near an Arctic tundra. Yes, we are going back that far. Raised on an active volcano in Hawaii on the big island. And when I was seven, a volcano ate my house. And, um, rendered me and my dad was raised by my dad, homeless. We went to homeless shelter. And then kind of got on welfare,

relied on the kindness of strangers. And my dad was a really incredibly talented story. I mean, case in point, I'm pretty sure it was a shelter that we stayed at for women and children only. And he somehow talked his way in. And look at this little girl. And he was a really phenomenal storyteller in all kinds of mediums. He's a guitar player, a playwright, an author, a haiku poet.

He grew up in Southern California, like once upon a time in Hollywood, Forrest Gump, that's his life. He played with the Beach Boys, you know, literally ran into O.J. Simpson, met Charles Manson, just always had these really great stories. And he would grow, you know, as I was growing up, he would tell me. A lot of these stories and especially these like juicy stories, you know, they could get to these really cliffhangers. And you'd be like, and that's when the police came. And they'd be like, but then what happened? And he's, you know, I'll tell you when you're older. So that really shaped that and being raised in a place that is so rich in nature, which gives you story unraveling in real life.

And also the culture itself has so many. is such a rich storytelling culture. So it was just like I was swimming in it all the time. So I loved stories. Yeah, it's kind of the background. And I got into writing. I wrote my first, I published my first poem when I was nine about my not dead grandmother,

but I wrote about her as if she were dead. People at a funeral, because that's what I did as a child. And I stuck with it. I eventually found my way into opening storytelling and narrative consultancy. I was working on really big brands, got super bored, got really interested in people's brains. And like, I don't really care about your brand story. I care about these human beings who are tasked with making this stuff up and working well together. And hopefully feeling some kind of kind of kindred spirit and joy and connection.

in this work that they do every day. So that's what I leaned more into over time. That's beautiful. There's something so romantic about the relationship with language. And for me, you know, when I hear your story, I can't help but think of my daughter and my relationship to her and I'm hopeful that I can do the things from my daughter that your dad did for you. And it seems to me that he's given you or bestowed upon you,

this beautiful gift of language. And the world is kind of made of language. language. And I think that that kind of moves into the world of behavior and brains. But what is your relationship to language? Like your father was a poet. You were writing poems at nine. That definitely gives you an insight into the way the world works and the way you see it. Yeah, I love language. I am also very envious of people who speak multiple languages. Hey, Jeff. And just links. in user that is so not fitting for your time. I know.

Yeah, and I think we have this magical power to convey as best we can through these stencils of words what is going on in our locked skull, you know? This like dark, this black hole that's in here can translate some experience in essence into these words that can then go into somebody else's, you know, trapped brain. Yeah. And that's, that's like a miracle. And I think it's, what a wonderful gift that we have. And the more facility we have with our words and being able to express and understand, I mean, I think the better, the better we create and get along. Yeah.

It's, it's interesting to think about the way in which all of our lives are shaped by language. I just had a, I had a really interesting conversation a little bit ago with a gentleman. and we were talking about the way in which the written word, books, these ideas of like exact repeatability have shifted our focus. They've changed, you know, the same way you concentrate on a word and then a letter in that word, it seems to echo the way in which society works as individuals. Like we've gotten away from the larger storytelling, how we're all players and we interact.

And now we're like into this individual, look at the symbolic meaning of the word, let's dig down with applied linguistics. It's funny to think about, right? Yeah, yeah, that is interesting. I really thought about it like that. And how, you know, it all needs to, it all needs to work together. And it, and it, you know, shape, shift, shift. Easy for you to say.

Yeah. And I remember, so another reason I got really into language in the brain, particularly. And what really sparked my interest in brain science, neuroscience, cognitive neuroscience is my dad had a story. stroke when I was quite in my early 20s. And he temporarily for a few months lost his ability to speak. I remember that day that my grandma called and she told me the news and she's like, he can answer the phone. So you can call the hospital. And I did. I just remember like muting myself because

I was, oh, I don't hear how nervous I am. Oh my God. I'm never going to hear the end of the stories. unacceptable. And I remember him picking up and just like this alien. Like you're just like, hi, like hi Joss. And I just lost it. And I mean, he could make out some sounds.

It was really difficult for him. He couldn't articulate. It was exhausting. And that's when I was like, I want to learn everything about what happened, what happened in his brain from this stroke. How does it work? What can be done?

And that's how I learned about neuroplasticity, you know, the adult brain's ability to change, which even in the early 2000s wasn't regularly accepted, even in the scientific community. And like little by little, he would just look at letters and think of words and one letter at the time. Look at objects and, you know, just like go cup and just stick with it. And that's like, man, there's nothing like watching someone close to you or having this experience yourself of losing something that you might have taken for granted to recognize that gift is so valuable. Yeah. Wow. What an incredible experience. It seems on some level like a huge tragedy.

But if I were to pan back a little bit, it seems like it's those tragedies in life. that really blow on the embers of coals in our heart that create a fire. Like maybe because of that, you become who you were. Maybe because of that love for your father and the need to understand how to solve that problem, that you have helped probably thousands of other people solve problems about behavior. You're given this, you know, TED Talk slash comedy stand-up special.

Like, maybe that would have never happened had you not thought about it that way. Absolutely. I think it's just like every every big moment presents a gift in itself even if it doesn't feel like that. Right. It's like you're seeing something you haven't seen before. A door is opened. It's like that all those old cliches apply. One closes, another opens is true.

And you can choose to pursue that hard thing or that new thing or that scary thing. Just like what are the choice to have? I'm going to shut down and look away. What's the point of that? It's not a life. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think it speaks to the idea of behavior.

Like, you go deep, deep into this and you have such a unique way of looking at it. And I want to get into that. But it's, do you think that one of your quotes is that we're not really thinking people, we're feeling people or we're feeling beings that pretend to think or something along those lines? Maybe you can dive down to that and unpack that for us. Yeah. So that's a quote from Jill Bolt Taylor and she wrote my stroke of insight. And she was one of my early heroes because she was a neuroscientist who experienced a stroke and wrote about it.

And that was like, it really helped me understand what's going on with my dad. Who, by the way, he did regain his ability to speak and tell dad jokes. And he still does not finish the cliffhangers because he still says I'll tell you when you're older. And I'm 41. So Jill Bolt Taylor, yeah, we tend to think of ourselves. as thinking creatures that feel when really we're feeling creatures that think. I love it so much. She's like, we, in talking about this gift of language, we can even tend to think of that

as like this logical side of us and even, you know, one side of the brain, all those old kind of myths. But being able to identify, like, that's how we experience the world. We feel things in our bodies and our brains, like, respond. And then it gives rise to, you know, these emotions come up and then we interpret them a certain way. And it's something I think is sorely, absolutely believe no is sorely lacking, particularly in business, is the fact that we are feeling, we are emotional creatures. And that drives us, right? It's like, if you, it's better you can recognize that, the better everybody's going to be.

I mean, it'll be better off. Everyone will be better off. I promise. Agreed. Yeah, business blows my mind because they're like, listen, we can harness the power of fear and love and advertising, but we don't want any of that in the actual workplace. Yeah. No. Keep that to yourself. Yeah. Get back to being a robot.

We don't need emotions in here. We need productivity. And I've been playing with this idea, too. And this stems from me being in a long bout. of people who care about production over anything else. And this is just my opinion, that in multinational corporations, I worked for UPS for 26 years,

and they don't care one iota about service, they don't care one iota about people. They don't care about anything except productivity. And so it just blew my mind how many creative and beautiful people are in the world of business and they want to do a great job. They have these creative solutions that can solve problems, But they are bunkered down and held down by this thing called the bottom line.

And the bottom line says all that matters is productivity. Productivity seems to me to be the, I don't know, it just seems to be stripping creativity from everything. But anyway, that's my soapbox right there. Thanks for let me jump on that for a minute. But yeah, it's fascinating how we don't allow the language or we don't allow the real behaviors that can solve problems into our life, whether it's in business or in our own personal life. What do you think? Absolutely. I remember you saying that on Jeff's 40 going on four.

It was sort of like productivity is the antithesis to creativity. It's like that is such an interesting perspective. And I was like, yes, why does that resonate so much? Because we have, and I think I even use it in my language. It depends on who's hiring me, right? They want to see their word productivity. Yes, get me in there. And then I'll talk about play and brain science and comedy and joy.

But yeah, it's just like we've, as if the bottom line is the only thing that matters, like what are you doing with your life if the only thing you want is the most number of apples produced the fastest. Yeah. You know, it's like, but the tree is sick and the soil is dry. And what are you going to do about that? There's no air. There's a storm.

It's just like there's a whole freaking organism and ecosystem that needs tending to. So open up your eyes, man. There's way more to measure in big. business. And that's such a shame that that's become like this myopic focus. It's and even, you know, villainized and characterized in films and movies and like kind of, um, becoming true before I very eyes. We're like, like, look what's happening with these strikes. The evo creatives are just sort of, you know, like let's let them bleed out until they have no choice, but to come back and sign a crappy deal. Yeah. I'm going to teach these guys a lesson.

You're not teaching anybody a lesson. What lesson are you teaching there? I'm like yeah it's so funny you have to laugh there's a great quote between a gentleman name Eugene Debs who was a great union leader

and Henry Ford and they're walking down this is back when automation first came in and I think it resonates today they're walking down the assembly line and Henry Ford

he's walking with Eugene Debs and he goes hey Eugene you know all sarcastically how are you going to get all these machines to pay union dues ah ha ha ha ha

and Eugene says hey Henry how you're going to get all those machines to buy your cars? You know, like we're the same, man. We're moving parts. We're different gears. We need each other. And one person doesn't win by hurting the other people.

The only way we move forward is by understanding that we're part of the whole. And I think that that's a lot of what your storytelling does. It impacts people. And it gets them to see we're part of this story. We're part. We're characters in a play. Which part do you want to play? And that leads me to one of my first questions, Josh.

And I'm super stoked you're here to thank you is how does storytelling impact the way we perceive and process informational and process information compared to more traditional methods of communication? I story storytelling rules the world. Everything that we believe comes from story. Everything that we imagine, our brain is constantly creating stories to make sense of the world, of the human experience, of things that happened, consolidating our memory, like just contextualizing everything. It's constantly doing that, even when we're asleep to make sense of stuff. And I think that the best storytellers rule the world. And it doesn't mean the greatest, like most imaginative necessarily because we see who gets into leadership. But but stories sway us. I mean, look at, you go to a concert. We go to movies.

The entertainment industry is huge. I saw this really beautiful quote. It might have, I don't know where it came from, but is Ethan Hawk talking about the value of creativity. And he's like, you know, people think of, you don't, you don't think of a poet or a poem is necessarily, I'm just butcher this, but a poem necessarily having value until a father dies or you lose a limb or your heart is broken.

And then you seek. that meaning and connection like it like it's a life force and you know then that poem shows you that you're not alone and someone's been through this before and you can get through this these are necessary things for us as beings so i that's so you know story is vital yeah that's beautiful i love it i i've found later in life like a strategy that I use that I think is almost synonymous with this, is that it really helps to begin to look at your life like a story. You know, one thought experiment you can do is pretend that you're a character in a book.

And now pretend you're constantly trying to get attention of the author to get a bigger part. You know, what book do you want to be in? Like, what character do you want to be? If you find yourself, if you think about that, you're in a book. okay, what role are you playing? If you want a bigger role, then start moving through the pages and helping out of the characters, start identifying the other characters around you, and what is your connection to that character? And how can you play a bigger part in their life?

Because playing a bigger part, a bigger part of the story in other people's lives means that your character grows bigger. And all of a sudden, you become the main character of this novel. Maybe you're the hero or maybe you're the anti-hear, whatever it is, I don't care. But play a bigger role in your story and watch the story. unfold in front of you. Watch the author begin to write new parts for you to walk down and new gardens

and new people start coming into your life. And I love the idea of story and I love the idea of people telling themselves a better story. What do you think about narratives and internal storytelling? Ah, this is what I live for. Absolutely. God, I love that so much.

It's an exercise that give people, too. I love the way that you put it. Just thinking of yourself as a character and a story, especially if someone's struggling, and they, you know, like they have this, they're identifying with this identity that only does X, Y, and Z, and that's who they are and it's not, these other things aren't possible for them. So like, just, let's do a little distancing exercise.

And that person is now a character. And they choose these different roles. What if that character is, Glinda the Witch or, you know, the Good Witch and the Bad Witch, what do they do? What do they say? What's it like for them? And, yeah, and that one, what you said about characters, like go and see how you can support other characters.

That's like one of the greatest things we can do for our for our self, for our well-being, for mental health. Like go out and tell someone, thank you. You know, go offer some kindness because you will feel better, they will feel better. It has a ripple effect. Like this stuff is contagious. And yeah, the stories we tell ourselves,

it's like that's what you can keep yourself stuck, even becoming aware of it can be a process. Like what is, what is this narrative that I've come up with that tells me I can never be a public speaker or I could never share work or I could never X, Y, Z, right? It's like that, it's just a story. You get to change it. You get to try on a new one and see what is more helpful.

Yeah. And there's so much dimensions to it, too. If you see yourself as a character in a book, like you can look at it that way. Or you can be like, hmm, maybe I'm more of like a on stage performance. You know what I mean by that? Because if it's a book, it just changes the dimension. Because if you're looking at it a book, you could be like, okay, well, where am I out of my character arc?

Okay, I'm in the hero's journey part right here. This is the first threshold guardian. Okay. And one idea I really love about stories is that it puts you in the third person, point of view. And it's so helpful and so effective to see your life there. You know, to give you an example. All of us know people in relationships where you're like, that's never going to work. I can see these new people. That's, that guy's using this. She's doing that. It's done. It never even started. But they can't see it because they're right in it.

And they are in their own story for whatever reason, but they can't see it. But you as a third person can see it. And it's obvious. You can do the same thing for yourself. If you just change the narrate, if you just change the perspective, it's hard to do when you got tunnel vision and you get up and you go to work and you come home. When you get up and you go to work, it's difficult when you got the blinders on. But if you can just tell yourself you're in a story, whether it's a stage, a movie, a book, it'll change your perspective and you can see it from over here now. And it changes everything, right? Isn't that a form of behavioral change? Absolutely.

Yeah. And that's like a, I think it's psychological distancing is that kind of practice of like, how do I step outside this situation? and imagine it a different way. And then it kind of unlocks a new way of thinking. Yeah. And I think absolutely, if you, I really love that. Just like, just step outside. Be on this.

You're God now. You're God telling this story. Yes. Whatever being you want to be. Let's call it that. And or an alien, actually. A horrible baby alien who's like, what's going on with this? Yeah.

From the cat's point of view. Yeah. Is it just like that's, you get the, you get, you get, you get, to choose that and it doesn't feel that way. It feels like we get stuck because our brains are tricky and they want us, you know, it's like, how do we help you not die today? Well, we'll just do exactly what we've always done. All the same kinds of thoughts and patterns and habits and stories, which are habitual, will come up to keep you safe and not dead. So if you're feeling that like, uh-oh, Jocelyn wants to go play basketball today, I don't know, I have done. I don't know. I have

Don't do that. Let's just do that. See? And then my great, no, Jocelyn doesn't play. Jocelyn is not a basketball player. Jocelyn does not play basketball. Jocelyn will look like a fool playing whatever. And then you get to decide like, nope, today Jocelyn played basketball. And she had a great time. Whatever happened. Learned something.

Yeah. I think that's, it's like one of the most important tools. And I mean, like an easy. easy thing to try on and it could be more difficult to apply and integrate, but just try it. Just try on a new story. Yeah. What, like, let's say, let's say you go into a, you have a client or you go into a business setting and they start talking about patterns and behaviors and things they want to change. What would be one of the first steps that you would do to help them achieve changing patterns

and behaviors? So it's helpful to think about the what is the change that you want to see. What's the end result, right? It's like just like what is the thing? Let's say you want to be a basketball player and you believe that you're not and you're doing nothing about it. Right. So here's the end state basketball basketball playing version of self. Great.

And then get it like to turn it into, this is what I like to do is make it a headline, right? turn it into a story turn into a song title a track a tv or a t-shirt slogan something that feels fun for you and that's like your north star and now it's like that's the top of everest okay you're not going to get there tonight probably unless you fly a jet or something which you can do um but if we think about like what are the steps to get there right and this is just kind of like behavior 101 just like think of think of the big thing and then go now what is the absolute tiniest, like ridiculously small thing that you can do. This is part of BJ Fogg's work that I love so much. He wrote these Tiny Habits Academy guy. And it's like tiny, like what can you do in two minutes or less?

So if you want to be a basketball player, and I'm not saying you're going to be in the NBA or whatever, a person who plays basketball, what's the very first thing that can take two minutes? I will bounce a basketball. I will put on basketball shoes. I will, I don't know why I said in my brain. said smell i will smell basketball shoes that's the thing that's part of it and then and then celebrate it and this is this is where most people get stuck they're like i don't deserve celebration i didn't do anything big i wasn't productive enough and that is bollocks you need you want to make that change you have to own it and you have to convince your brain that it's a great idea because it will actively resist

to the thing that you're you're trying to change or that you're afraid of right so it's like i smelled shoes and that was my tiny step. Yes, I did it. Hell yeah. I'm making steps. That's where you start. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's it's interesting because smell is like one of the closest sense tied to memory, right? So if you're smelling the shoes, you may, you may smell those shoes every time now you think about basketball, but it's, it's so tied in together like that. I love that. What, B.J. What was the gentleman's name that you referenced? B.J. Fogg, he's the author of Tiny Habits and founder of Tiny Habits Academy. He's a behavior scientist out of Stanford.

Oh, it's so true. I've never heard that before. Thanks for bringing that up. Let me see. I have another awesome. I have a bunch of questions. I'll jump to this one. How can we measure the effectiveness of storytelling in promoting behavioral change?

And what research methods are commonly used in this area? How could we measure the effectiveness of storytelling in creating behavioral change? Yes. Well, wow. I feel like I'm like trying to pass the bar. They're interesting questions and you are an interesting person. I don't know how we measure storytelling or if we want to. I wonder what I think that maybe I'm being a little resistant because I worked so long in branding. and they're just like, yeah, no.

How do you measure the feeling of joy? Or the will to live? Like, how do you measure people looking forward to working with each other? I don't know that we can. And I don't know that, again, that we should. That said, since businesses do get so myopically focused on metrics and measurement, I guess the best way is currently is to do things like surveys. and there's a technique called buddy interviewing where you get two people together and you ask them

questions and they can kind of it has an interesting effect that you don't necessarily get one-on-one or through surveys alone, right? The surveys have their lots of flaws. Yeah. But I don't know how else we could other than sort of these self-measures or if you're looking at, you know, just like the kind of obvious, hey, you told you have a, you told yourself a story about becoming a basketball player and now you either are or you are not to basketball player so did it did it work even then though maybe some maybe they decided that wasn't the thing they started exploring it

and they're like you know what actually i i'm glad i tried this but this this doesn't sit right and my my goals have shifted and now i want to be a cat whisperer and so then you know you just follow that, you follow that new thread. Is that to say that the story didn't work? How do you measure a change of mind into something that's more aligned or something you're more curious about? So I don't know. I don't know how we measure that effectively or if something like that exists. I do know that there are, you know, some experiments and things done on changing narrative patterns and shifting thought and there's really great stuff in um that's been done on improv uh with this man named charles limb and a lot of other people but he's the one i know that first comes to mind first and he did

these experiments looking at what's happening in people's brains when they're creating um improv improv improv music, rap. He's currently looking at improv performers, like stage comedy improv. And that is a form of telling a story that shifts behavior and shifts thinking and gets people. There's, you know, can calm nervous system, drop stress levels and shift your thinking possibly

for the rest of your life. So there's that. Yeah. That's, I love it. It's a beautiful answer. And I wholeheartedly agree that, you know, trying to measure, like, the theory in business is, well, how do you manage what you can't measure? Well, the problem is you can't measure subjectivity, you know, and you can't, we don't have the tools to measure non-Euclidean space. And so we just throw away everything that doesn't fit into our cool little box.

We don't have a real measuring tool for that. So let's just throw her out. Like, no, dummy, that's important stuff. We can't throw that. out, well, we can't measure it so it's over here. Okay, those people should just step aside for a minute because those are the people that are getting us tunnel vision. I propose that we start looking at the way other animals see each other and they communicate.

Let's take the squid, for instance. Like, here's an animal that, like, communicates by changing its form, by changing its shape, by changing its color. You know, in a weird way, we do that. And I'll go back to the idea of poetry. If you sit down with someone you love, like, before, like in the intimate phase of a relationship, and you sit down to a candlelight dinner

and you're reading poetry and that both of you are really attracted to each other, just the act of reading like an erotic poem or just a beautiful poem, you're going to see someone's face get flush. You're going to see the goosebumps come up the same way as squid or they change their shape. So too do we change our shape and our texture

if we're really willing to tell the right stories. And that's how you know your community. whether it's improv and the crowd is clapping and they're yelling or maybe it's a eulogy and someone is you can see you can measure the performance by the tears and the eyes of the loved ones and it's it's more than a performance it's a it is a coming together an interaction that we have with each other and the language is the bridge the story is the is the platform which we all play on and i i i really think that the work you're doing like some of the short you're doing are awesome some of the stand-up slash talking that you're doing i think that you are showing people how to be that bridge and i want you to teach more people how to do it all right that's yeah do it yeah i really that's like thinking of how and like an octopus yeah yes thank you or squid octopus you know one yeah i don't i don't know one of them does Yeah, the little aliens of the sea, they're so fascinating.

And then thinking of how we too transform in ways that can seem more subtle. But I think as far as I know, we are the only creatures who cry visible tears of sadness. And they are made of a different chemical substance than tears that clear our eyes, for example. You know, like we get something in their eye or it's windy. Yeah, which is like that. One theory around that is we cry these visible tears that they stick to our face. The sadness tears stick to our face longer. The next time you cry tears of sadness,

see if you can notice the difference between that and your eye in your eye tearing up to get something out of it. And that's like a signal to our fellow beings that I need help. I had no idea. Thanks for sharing that. That's a, it's, it's an unspoken word that, that we sometimes really gets us. You know, it's that whole thing together, whether it's the tears, the smile, the, the, the flared nostrils or the squinting of the eyes. You know, it's all these fascinating things that they play a part in our story. I can think of, you know, there's always some foreshadowing, like one of my.

favorite authors is there's the Herman Melville who you could argue as a prophet I would like to do that sometimes but you know the book Moby Dick

where they talk there's so much foreshadowing in there where they talk about Starbucks and all these people and they talk they describe their faces

and in doing so they're describing the scene around them and I think that's a part of storytelling too is right setting the scene setting the environment

and there's a lot of intention in there yeah yeah and we get we gain so much just for that picture, right? Yeah.

So much that is impossible to put all the words to. But it's a form of language and of itself. Like, what are you seeing in this scene? What are you feeling? What does it smell like? Where are the shoes? Ah! Well done.

I love it. So here's one that we see play out on mass media. And it's this idea of the way storytelling is employed to address social or environment issues. Do you think that there's a certain sort of responsibility for storytelling? And what does that look like? Yeah, I think that that's such a, whiff, the people who know that stories change minds and that have the power because they own the networks or they're in front of that they hog the microphone absolutely have a responsibility. Do they, Do they use it well? Not in my opinion, mostly.

You know, and I think that it's like that whole thing when people get too much absolute power, corrupting absolutely is people get so blind because I don't know why exactly other than we seem to deny that we are this social species and we that we need each other. And then when we get more and more to like billionaire status, it's such a mind fucks. Like what? Yeah. This doesn't make any sense. Not a person having that much doesn't make any sense. And I think the brain just goes berserker. Like, I empower, I need more. You know, it's like that, what is that little, that cartoon?

Absolute power. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that any time you're telling a story about, especially about what happened or like with the media telling a story about big things that are happening oh i wish they would take a little more responsibility i think the people who do it best are the comedians because they are not afraid to say the truth and we know that as the audience like we might not like their comedy or we might have hurt feelings but you know for the most part

you listen to a comedian a really skilled comedian they are telling the truth in a way that most of the storytellers are afraid to do so, which kind of goes back to that whole, like, you know, when the jokester, what was it, the joker person was in the castles? The wit, the court wit. Yeah, yeah. And that person, well, I guess it depends on the king because they could have their head cut off, right? Totally, yeah. How do I tell the truth in subtle ways.

Yeah, yeah, I do wish we see, we saw more of that in the, in the consolidating. powers. However, it's really cool to see that, I mean, there's this happening, right? You have this podcast. We have places to express. And from the social media channels, which ownership who runs X or whatever anything's called anymore. There's that, but we still have that. There's places like substack for, you know, writers who want to put out whatever they feel like putting out and can generate their own audience and get connected that way. So I really love seeing the emergence of that storytelling channels. Yeah.

You know, I love language too. And so much comes to mind when we're talking about these stories. Like I think of the word history, his story. And all of our his stories are different, whether, you know, where are you reading his story? Are you reading his story in Japan? Are you reading history in England? Are you reading history in Africa?

You're reading his story in the United States? Because they're all different stories. stories told by the person that had the microphone. You know, and if we, if, if you, if you, if you, if you can look at it from that angle, you can almost put yourself in this weird sort of psychedelic third person point of view. Like, let's take comedians, for example. A lot of the times the comedian's best stuff is before they get famous because it's really difficult to tell stories about trauma and upcoming and facing adversity when you have

everything. So you can, you know, you can see comedians that are crushing it, crushing it. and then they just level off and they kind of have the same act or even their new stuff is like yeah it's just missing something you know it's like it's like non-alcoholic beer at a point in time yeah it kind of taste the same but i'm not really getting the buzz from it you know yeah yeah what what must a billionaire story be it must be something along the lines of i work harder than everybody i'm better than everybody and that's why i'm here you would have to say that you would have to have that story to continue on that trajectory right there's got to be god complex that

comes into play, right? I mean, if you see people like they're, and they're easy to pick on and they're still people, but Elon Musk is a great one to pick on. Yeah. Um, because he, I found him so fascinating for a long time. He's still fascinating. I think he's still fascinating creature, but he for a while was sort of this, you know, played the role of more an anti-hero type. And that was his like, I'm the guy who says the real stuff. I can say whatever I want. La-ta-da-da-da. I'm going to do my own thing and live in my trailer and make space cars and whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And and I feel like over time, he's, he's become more brittle, at least the exterior. He's become more in the way that he puts things out in the world. It just feels a

little less like humanity is is slipping away. And then you and at the same time, though, what kind of person thinks that they're put here on earth to get us off of earth? Like, what what is going on that you think you're the savior and that and that you have the only solution you know and why not take care of what is right around us and maybe that's the argument people can make for electric cards which I have my whole there's a whole other are they better I don't know um they still plug in they still use the oil company's setup I mean what okay the batteries yeah yeah I'm with you um yeah uh yeah so I don't know. I don't know how do we maintain perspective and humanity when we don't really want for anything except for more power.

Yeah, I think that that's what you're seeing with him. And like it takes us back to the idea of stories. Like he had a great story coming up. Hey, on this guy. Hey, I believe what you guys believe. I believe in free. I believe in these things. And then on some level, like, I begin thinking like, okay, we're never, ever going to Mars. Like, he's building weapons the same way Werner von Braun was the greatest rocket scientist of his time and he built weapons to destroy the country so too is Elon Musk building satellite technology to build weapons Mars is a cover story the moon and like that the I think space travel I think like this I'll throw this out here something since I'm going out on stories I don't think you come into this world you come out of it you're part of this planet like you grow the earth grows people like an apple tree grows apples you and I can know much more go to Mars and then we can send the ocean to Mars. Like we're part of this planet. You can't go out there. We're as far out in spaces we're ever going to get. We are on a spaceship.

We're traveling at a million miles an hour. We're not coming off the spaceship. So that being said, that's how I've begun to see the story about Elon Musk. And then, you know, it's weird to see that, like, on some level, you know, he has to be surrounded by people. He probably doesn't have any friends. He probably has only people around him that. want stuff from him.

You know, and it must be a strange feeling where your phone is ringing off the hook and his people are like, hey, man, what do we do this? Hey, man, can I get that? Hey, can I have that? There has to be this weird isolation that begins to happen. And that's probably why he sleeps under his desk, not because he wants to be productive because he's trying to get away from all these people that, like, want stuff from him. And while I'm touching on this guy, why does he have like 40 kids?

And how come all the, you know, why do the women that have babies with him, why are they never pregnant? Like where are the babies coming from? Like it's so weird. What's going on there? Well, those are good. Those are great. Oh, yeah, I never thought about that.

I remember hearing that he had all these kids and I'm like, what? Yeah. He does? Is that his, maybe his story is like, that's me giving back. Because I have all this money. I might as well pay child support. He's easy to pick on it. I'm sorry, Elon, but there's all these weird questions, man.

But I think it's such a compassionate way to look at that. I think that's really important is like when when people get in these positions where they are just surrounded by succubus types and people manipulators, it's lonely. And going back to like we need each other, if you don't feel like you're truly connected or you truly have a community that actually loves you and supports you and believes in you, not because they want something, but just because they're there for you. Yeah. what that that kind of creates that psychosis i guess yeah you're forced into that role okay well if these people are going to treat me this way then i'm going to treat them that way i guess i am the messiah you know what if these people are telling me i am i might as well be at some point in time you have these reinforcing narratives that that push you in that direction you know what i mean and then you build

these walls around you and then next thing you know you only find solace and other people who are as psychotic as you know and i don't mean that as a pejorative i mean that as a pejorative i mean mean that is we're all psychotic in some ways. And you do gravitate towards people that think like you. So you can see it's a self-serving sort of story. But it's back to the idea of stories, right? Yeah. Yeah, man.

I can't imagine what that would, what it would be like to be in a position like that. Like what? And, yeah, or to be one of the children in that situation? Like what happens to your mind when you're raised with that as your origin story? I don't know. fascinating if they're real if they are children out there yeah i know and then you know if you if you

dig even deeper into the story they go his parents own like this crazy emerald mind wow you know i bet you that his kids that he never sees from like his fourth wife or his third wife probably feel a lot like he did growing up i bet you his parents were never around they're probably always mining emeralds or you know like i bet you his dad cheated on his mom a million times the same way Elon has 20 different wives. It's not fair for me to say, but in my story about him, that's what happens. Right. Yeah. It's hard to get out of that, like get out of the, break the chain, get out of the loop. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about generational stories because a lot of the times the things that happen in our life

are stories that happen to us are the stories that our parents told. Did you ever see that thread running through stuff? Absolutely. Right. It's like, if we i often fantasize about um like like a a solar flare for memory and the whole world is just wiped clean like our memory banks are wiped clean i don't honestly wish for this i just imagine like if we didn't remember anything any of our stories any of these things that identities and things that we could what would happen we still have language okay but we just don't have any memory So then what do we do? We go, do we start talking to each other? We start learning things about what you're seeing. What's your day like? Because you don't have anything before that. We don't have categories yet or any of this, you know, trauma that goes deep. I'm just so curious about how we would behave. And if the tribalism that we have would probably it would persist in some way, but it would be different. And yeah, and I think that we can get really stuck to these stories of things that we deserve or don't deserve based on our appearances and the things that we have or don't have that often do a disservice more than generate, you know, awareness and compassion.

There's this really interesting study that was done on mice. And I think it was the smell of it was either like, let's say it's orange blossoms. And so they, I'm going to, again, butcher this a little bit, but the gist is the, there's this male mouse, male mice, and they're exposed to orange blossoms, the scent of it at the same time that they're shocked. So they develop a fear response. Anytime they smell the orange blossoms, be afraid. Then they're isolated from these females and their bread, and those children are isolated. So they never grow up around this stimulus response that they never see it. When they're growing up, though, they're exposed to orange blossoms and they're terrified.

Never shocked, never had anything else. Another generation and another generation, they are born fearing orange blossoms. And we talked about scent and memory being really closely interconnected. And we don't know how much of this translates to human brains, but I find that so fascinating to think of like, wow, this, this response created some kind of narrative in the brain, right? We don't think of Mises speaking necessarily, but there's a narrative going on. And it was just inherited without passing along verbally or, you know, just like just in their being. So how much of that are we dealing with?

A lot. Like that's, I think that explains nails on the chalkboard, right? Like clearly some beast that was going to murder us all. I'm going to get out of here. But maybe that speaks to the idea of us tearing down dictators. Maybe that also speaks to us tearing down the people in positions of authority and hanging them by the gallows. Like that's what we do.

Okay, you guys are in power now for a little while. Guess what? We don't like you anymore. And there's nothing you can do to change it. You know, you can maybe that's how the government looks at us. Like now, holy shit, these people are upset. we got to do something. And that's why they just pass bills,

past bills, okay, we're out of here. Like you're trying to get yours before the people erupt in murder because it's a matter of time, right? That's what we do. I think we need a little more of that.

I mean, not to say that people should be harmed, but with like the easy, easy targets to pick on again, but the studio execs in Hollywood. Come on. Sign the contracts. Like make the deals.

With the talent who is making the thing, that you cannot live without. You want to get a robot to do it, fine. Get a robot to watch it. You know, it's just like to the point that they're like, Ford, you know, it's like, who's going to buy these cars? Who's going to watch these movies? You take hair of the humans.

And I don't see enough of that. Like, what's happening to the execs? Nothing. Yeah. They don't get any repercussion for not making good deals. You know, that's your job. Make a good deal. But I suppose, again, going back to the bottom line, if they're just looking at that,

taking care of people isn't a service to the bottom line. So what are we going to do about it? Yeah, well, I think what you're going to see is the people that are positions of authority because it's not just the riders, it's the UPS drivers. It's the railroad people. It's all of them. Yeah. And I think what's going to happen, at least in my opinion, is that those people that are

holding out for trying to force people into work understand on some level that they're longer relevant because the computer is not going to take away the, you know, you don't have to be afraid of your job, losing a job to chat BT. You have to be afraid of losing your job to someone who knows how to use chat GPT. And it's going to go, it's going to eradicate the world of contracts. It should. That's, that's what it can do. It should imagine if we used AI and chat GPT to actually get equal justice under the law? Like, what if we could all have an awesome judge? What if we could all have an awesome attorney? Like, those are the jobs, I think. What if we could all have a contract where it was fair instead of it being skewed to the person who has the most

money? Like, and that's what the execs are doing. They're like, listen, you've got to sign this unfair contract that's dog shit for you guys. And they're like, nah, I'm not going to do it. And I think what you're going to see there is a couple of things. One, you're going to, You're seeing people like yourself and a lot of other awesome people that are starting to create great content without the necessity of a studio. You still need the writers. You don't really need the studio because it's all right here. You can have a microphone, a computer. Those guys are dinosaurs.

But you have the incredibly talented people who can understand storytelling. They understand a character arc. They can make the idea of the hero's journey jump out of the computer. They can understand how to leverage Nietzsche's camel to the child. They can make all these beautiful things just blossom into the world and people can enjoy it. And they can do it for free. And that's another thing too. Like I'll do it for free just to burn the students.

I'll quit my job and create content for free just to burn those guys. You know what I mean? And I hope more people do it because we don't need them. We have us and we're better storytellers. What's a more engaging story? Someone who's left everything behind to create something they love or someone who makes a giant paycheck and, you know, they push a few buttons. I think that we're seeing the revolution.

I think it is televised. And I think it's people struggling to become the best, most authentic version of themselves. And that's what these strikes are about. It's more than that. Like the good people are winning. And regardless of what happens, we're going to see the old industry fold underneath

the same way Tectonic plates fold under the other ones, I think. And I'm kind of ranting there. But what's your take on that particular aspect of it? I love that. I love that view. I think we need to hear that, you know, gives some hope, right? Yes. Yeah.

There's a promise for something better and we have agency in that. Yeah. And having these people continue with the courage of stepping up, like saying, because I, man, mad respect to the people who are striking and it's, that's scary. It is. And you have each other, right? Yeah. It's like you.

And in this country, particularly, man, it's just with the, the, um, I don't know if it's fair to say economic slavery. Can I use that word? Absolutely. You know, servitude. It's just like we, I've been self-employed now for over 15 years. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very difficult, right? I love it.

I agree. Don't get me wrong. But every month, I got to come up with how am I going to pay my $400 in health care? This isn't premium healthcare. This is just like, I still pay $100 to see a doctor, okay? Yeah. And then my mortgage or anybody in this position, like your rent, your groceries that are more expensive now, the people who don't understand what it's like to be self-employed, who keep going like, why do you charge so much? It's like because I'm not getting 40 hours paid a week, right? It's like this is, why are your rates going up? Because inflation, hello.

Yeah. That sort of thing. It's just like, I don't know where this rant is going, but sort of thinking about these people who are standing on the picket lines and have absolutely nothing coming in. and can't work because of these, you know, are there some exceptions in SAG and in the acting industry? The UPS, like what, what, what, how are you going to eat? What about your health insurance? What if you need to see a doctor? And this, the way this country has programmed us and our narratives is really insidious. And I'm glad to see it breaking.

Me too. And I think it's necessary. Like, you know, I can speak on the behalf of, of, of, all the, I think a large number of the UPS is like the, it seems to me what's happened is this idea that the human being has been reduced to a number. And I know that because when I used to go into work, the first thing they do, the first thing you go into work is you have to walk through this bobwire fence. And then you have to go through a metal detector.

And then they have to patch you down. And then you go in there and you're shown this list of numbers that you've been reduced to and there's a negative mark because you didn't put up the same amount of numbers that somebody else did. So they want to compare you right off the back. You know, and I remember just walking in and just being so sick to my stomach like, oh, you know why they, do you know why they have metal detectors in front of UPS? Because people come in with guns and murder their coworkers, but they're not really murdering their coworkers. They're murdering their boss.

It's a funny story. It's not really funny, but when you hear about someone in a workplace and workplace violence, I don't think they're really murdering their coworkers. They're murdering their boss. And it's so interesting to me how people don't like to use that term when someone comes in with a gun and kills people. but they love to throw that term around when they're telling you what to do. Hey, I'm your boss. If you come up with a gun, they're a coworker.

I know it's kind of a crazy rant to go on. But, you know, when we reduce people to the lowest common denominator, what story do you expect to come out of there? When you can't have compassion for somebody, when you say, oh, well, yeah, you're working a little slower because your kid died. Hey, you're working a little slower because you're having problems at home. Well, that's one thing. But if you're working slower because, you know, 0172 isn't working right.

You can get rid of 017. But it's hard to get rid of George who lost his kid. It's hard to get rid of these people with real problems, but it's much easier if they're just a number. And that's why I'm happy to see the entire world going on strike. And it's not just in the U.S. I think it started in the world where we had the Middle East uprising, they called it, or it was the Middle East Spring.

And then you saw the yellow vests in France. And then you saw Greece erupt. And there's some interesting takes that are coming that came out of, Verifakis, who was the Greek finance minister, and he kind of laid bare the world that is finance and how they have a stranglehold over the rest of the world. But it's happening around the world and the people and positions of authority, whether government is the shadow cast upon people by business or they're working together or whatever ism you want to say it is, that system has broken and it's never going to get fixed. And I don't care how much weight they put on the people,

whether the UPS drivers, train track drivers, riders. It doesn't matter. You can't put enough pressure on people to push them back in their cages because that's not going to happen. People are erupping all over. And it's such a positive thing. I know people they're scared. Trust me, I know what it's like to walk away from a guaranteed paycheck.

And I know how much it hurts and how scary it is. But that goes away. And what's born in its place is this sense of community. What's born in this place is this fundamental understanding of how much you gave up. You know how much you give up by going to work for 14 hours a day, leaving your wife and your kids and not sitting down and having an awesome dinner table discussion about integrity? You give up everything for a handful of fucking dimes and it's bullshit. There's way more life out there and it's a way richer, more beautiful life if you're willing to take responsibility for it.

And in some ways, I think the world is saying like, look, rise up. Like stand up and take your place. Stand up to authority. These fuckers don't know anything. We're way better and we're way stronger. And when we stand together, you know, let's do what the Luddites couldn't do. Let's go out there and destroy all their fucking machines. Let's destroy the machine that enslaves us.

Now, that is my rent for the day. I love it. I love standing up to it. It speaks volumes. And beyond that, I think it's one thing to say it, but it's another thing to do it. And for people out there that feel the same way, I feel, take that next step. and walk it, live it. Take one step every day.

Do the tiny tips that you talked about, like whether it's smelling basketball shoes. Maybe it's walking into your boss's office for the first time and being like, okay, next time I'm going to say something. But maybe it's just walking past his door this time. Maybe it's actually saying something. Maybe it's standing up for someone across the way

that's getting yelled at. Maybe you just walk over there and stand next to him and say, I mean, this is right. But us coming together and standing up for what we believe in is the very first steps in creating a society that I want to be part of. So that's what I got. Did I lose you right there?

I was running like I'm maddened. I got a little frozen there. I got a frozen. I love it. Yes. Yes. And exactly. And what is the role that you want to play in it?

Which is like going back to all these people rising up, thank you. You are the heroes. Heroes. All of them. It is. It's a beautiful story. And let's take it back to the beginning of what we were saying. Where are we in this story?

Well, we have been being downtrodden for so long. And all it took was one or two people to start standing up and now we followed them. It's the same way that water flows down a path. And all of a sudden, there's a little blockage of the water starts flowing around it and the rest of the water follows. We have seen people. I have had mentors. I have seen people that I love standard for what they believe in, and that's what gave me the courage to do it. When you tell your story about like, hey, it's really hard for me to try to get enough money to buy a sandwich when you were starting out.

It was really hard to do that, but you did it. And in doing so, you told a story that allowed other people to follow what you do. And you can still see it's like success piles upon success piles upon success. And the more of us that take the opportunity to become authentic, the more we break away from the change. chains that bind us. And I think that that's a big part about behavior. If I take it back full circle here, what you're really training people to do is stand up and change their behavior. And maybe we could talk a little bit more about how the small effects that we change in our behavior can fundamentally shift society. What do you think? Yeah. Think of just one interaction,

like going to the coffee shop. And the person in front of you, let's say they're in a really bad mood and they back up and they step on you and they just say and let's say you didn't wake up in the greatest mood or you didn't feel amazing and then you're just like what the fuck and then you get in a fight or you don't but you pass that energy on yeah right there's this another study that says just three minutes of negative news in the morning has a profound effect on on you six to eight hours later you have a much more likely something like 30 percent higher chance of um continuing to feel negative that that's energy that you're taking back to your loved ones to your friends into the office everywhere it spreads right so yeah that tiny thing that tiny moment those tiny choices

where you can go hey um it's all good i'll buy you coffee yeah can you be the person who who offers that bit of kindness because you will get it back and so will they and so will the people around them and around you the ripple effect right it's those yeah the little moments that that can kill or nourish. And a lot of what I think about a lot and talk about a lot is the concept of deathbed you. And I find it very inspiring thinking about your death. Yeah. I love it.

Because we, that's another thing. I think we can push aside feelings and the fact that we're mortal. And that's why we go to the movies and we listen to songs and things like that. Right. So we're not allowed to talk about it at the office a lot. But there's this great article on a book written by Brony Ware. She was an end-of-life care nurse. And she documented all of these top regrets of the dying, right?

Number one, I wish I had lived a life that was true to me and not what other people expected. Yeah. The number one thing people regret when they're dying is that they didn't live a life that was true to them. And they tried to fit into somebody else's box and they lived by a bunch of shit. shoulds and have to and must instead of I want to and I can and I will. And I'm going to face this, the fears that I have and be courage and stand up for things that I believe in and be willing to fail and to learn and to have fun. That was another top regret.

I wish I had let myself laugh and be silly to play, to spend more time with my friends. These are the things that really actually matter. And at the end of our lives, nothing is more painfully clear than that. Every single day, go do something that feels true to you, that's kind, and that connects you to somebody you care about or go care about somebody new. Yeah. Experience the richness of life. You know, we've been tricked into thinking that you have to have all this money in order to live life. But a walk is free.

Calling a friend is free, you know. and it's, I love the idea of the energy transfer and the energy exchange. Sometimes it's difficult, though. Like if you do wake up in a bad mood and you haven't had your coffee yet, do you have any tips or tricks or hacks that you can do to shift your focus in that moment? Because sometimes if you just have a little shift, then you can change that energy. What are you doing that moment when you find yourself like ready to snap? But you're like, okay, I'm going to fix it.

Like, how do you make that quick change in yourself? Well, there's lots of different types, sometimes, like this, morning. I just, I wrote down three things I was grateful for. I don't do that every morning. I don't know if it loses its power. I think it's like a, it's dosing, finding the right dosing for you. It's going to be different for everybody. So there's some mornings I do that. And that really just that's the very first thing I focus on is like, what do I, I just like the way that the light is shining through the window and yeah, the snuggle of my kitty. Yeah. You know, that I'm going to, I have legs. I'm going to walk. Yep. And that's what I did. And that's

another thing, walking, like you said, getting out in nature, seeing that Andrew Huberman is always talking, neuroscientist who has Huberbin lab, is always talking about getting outside and getting morning light, rain or shine every single day. And even just a few minutes of that really boosts your mood for the rest of the day. It's like necessary. Think of all this time and it's inside now. It's wild. Or do something like a silly movement. Like if you're taking yourself seriously, oh, this is something I love to do. But I'm taking myself really seriously. I have one of my favorite costumes is a penguin suit.

So I will dress up as a penguin and just totter around or go like say something to my boyfriend. Just like, beep, da, da, bu, and run away. And that, like, it makes me laugh. It makes him laugh. It reminds me that, you know, there's no reason to take myself seriously. It usually doesn't end well for anybody, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Do something that just makes you laugh. That's beautiful. I love it. And I have this awesome picture of people having an awesome relationship, finding ways to make each other happy. Like, that's enough. You know, I found that like a healthy dose of psychedelics seems to be a way to keep myself happy too. You know, it's changing a state in a way. And it's so easy to not be grateful.

It's easy to wake up and think about all the things you've got to do and all the things you don't have. But it's a pattern. In the same way you can wake up and write down things you're grateful for. so too can you think about things you're grateful for. So too can you force yourself to laugh. And especially like that's where this idea of dark humor comes from. Sometimes things are so bad, all you can do is laugh. And that's enough to pull you out of that thing.

Like, is this really happening to me? Yeah. I guess I'm lucky. I guess I'm lucky, you know, or just whatever it is, you can pull yourself out of it. And another hack that I use sometimes when I find myself on the edge or sometimes you're in your car and people piss you off or something like, that. But one thing I've really, that has really helped me is this idea that everything you notice

in somebody, you only notice it because you do it. So if someone's really pissing you off, the fact is they're probably pissing you off because they remind you of a part about you that you don't like. And that for me is like, this, damn it. You go from wanting to punch them to wanting to hug them because you're like, this person just showed me how dumb I am. This person just showed me what an asshole I am. And I should probably thank him for that because I just need to work on that. As soon as I go down that rabbit hole, then I just go, holy cow, this is profound. This is the world talking to me. This is the world saying, George, listen to me. I'm going to make you the best person possible. Today I'm going to show you what a weak chump you are because you're going

to see this person that you think is weak, but I'm telling you your week. Or you know what, George, today I'm going to show you how the world is about to unfold for you because you're out in your garden and I know you're staring at that vine. You can see the butt on that vine, about to blossom into a flower. You know what, George? That's you. You can rush around and do all the things you want, but it's not going to open up until, you know,

August 9th at 1245. That's when it happens. So just try to enjoy the time until then. But the world is constantly talking to you. If you're willing to tell yourself that story, if you're willing to look at it that way, then you can co-create with the world around you. And instead of seeing it as a task,

Instead of seeing it as a job or something you have to fight or create, like it's something that you unfold into. And it just takes away so much pressure that way. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And it's like, and to that blossom, it's still going to need the sunlight and the winds and the soil and the water and time. Yeah.

So tend, you know, lovingly. And also in your, you know, the reflections that people, the gifts that people have that don't. always feel like yes like oh yeah i really love it's like the little care bear in you is going it's time to it's time to beam some light because otherwise i'm going to get really i'm going to crush things um uh what was i thinking about that the same kind of oh i think also the the value of the feeling that you are experiencing there's alan watson there is no wrong feeling which i love there is never a wrong feeling.

You're feeling what you need to be feeling in this moment. So you don't need to push it away. If you are feeling angry or grumpy, you don't need to force joy or I like to force laughter when I can because I just love it so much. But like even if you could just get curious for a second about like, what is this feeling trying to tell me? What is the message?

What can I learn from? Like I'm angry because I, it's my biological being saying I'm not getting. something that I feel I need right now or I feel like some boundaries being crossed and I'm uncomfortable. So how can I navigate and manage that? It's harder when you're in the state of like absolute anger. But just if you could just pause for a second and be like, hey, this feeling is valuable. Maybe I can channel it in a way that feels productive, but in the way I like to use that word. Yeah. No, it's well, it's really well said. I think there is

you know, different meanings of different words, which speaks to the idea of a living language. We don't have to live our life in a productive manner using the definition of productivity that was given to us by corporations. We could live our life in a productive manner that means creating something beautiful for everybody around us, you know? And I think that that is a big part of some of the, some of the videos that I watch of yours. Like I really see you putting forth a vision of what is possible. And I like the way that you tell the story of how we create the changes in our brain and then it creates the changes in our lives.

I still have trouble. I still struggle with that, though. Like, how are we translating our vision into reality, Jocelyn? How is that happening? Well, the way we perceive affects, you know, the way that we behave affects the way that we create effects. way that we perceive like it's all integrated and if we are changing the story within so as an example going back to like think about my dad his story could have been i will never speak again i'm

fucked let's give up right or it could be hmm i let's see if i can say this letter today well i wonder if i can say this word today i wonder if i put a little effort in here what could happen i'm going to keep just taking steps and see what happens. Yeah. And the, you know, big goal being to speak again, maybe, maybe it's a North Star. The point of it being a North Star is it something to aim for. Yeah. And then you just keep going.

And I think like that's, that's the difference between, you know, it's like if you're, if you're telling yourself this story about giving up or being a loser, then guess what? How are you going to see the world around you? How are you going to be judging those who aren't doing the things that you think you wanted to be doing or the ones that are doing the thing that you want to be doing and you're so jealous because you're so angry at yourself that you can't experience happiness for anybody. So like that's it affects everything, right? That's and then you're when you make these new stories, you start believing them.

You start reinforcing them. You're you are literally creating new neural pathways, which affects how you are in the world. And because we all are connected and, and affect. each other, you are affecting the people around you. I think about this, one of the effective, effective things for people when they're struggling, and those people especially who have kids, it's like, what is the narrative you want that your child to believe in? Yeah. If mom is telling herself, I'm not good enough or I need to work harder or I'm not allowed to enjoy myself, I should just give up.

Do you want your daughter thinking that? And that is usually an eye-opener, you know, sort of like, oh, right. Because children are wisdom at its peak. And usually it takes us the rest of our lives to get back to that. When that kid is soaking up everything in ways that we get older and we lose, we lose some capacity usually, right? So they're just, they don't have all of the faculties that we have yet. So they're absorbing it all and integrating it in ways that we can't all understand.

So it's like everything you tell yourself and the beliefs and the behaviors is affecting something. So it's like how do you want it to affect yourself in the world around you? Yeah. That is beautiful. And as you're telling that story, in my mind, I see this giant ceremony that we're all part of. And it's this thing called life. And we can do experience it at different times. Sometimes we're the child that's in this state of constant amazement and learning.

And then we become adults. You know, there's a great song by Perry Farrell. It's called We'll Make Great Pets. And in that song, he talks about, children are innocent, adults are fucked up, and elderly are like children. But it's so, like, it just, it blows my mind to think about the ceremony of life that we're all in. We go through these different phases, the same way the moon goes from full to waxing gibbis to, you know, all these different quarter moon and all these different things. So too do we go through different phases of our life. And if we're aware, if we're aware that like for right now as an adult, there's a man who's almost 50, I can look at my dad and see, holy shit, I'm a lot like this guy in a lot of ways.

And then I see my daughter and I'm like, oh man, I can see the transformation happening. And if I really want to affect it, then I got to have a serious look at what my dad failed to, not accomplish, but what he failed to work on. And I think it speaks back to the ideas people have when they're staring down death's door, the unrealized dreams. So if you're an adult and you have the, and you're fortunate enough to have your parents alive, I think it would behoove you to have an honest conversation about what, they feel they failed in in their life because it probably has echoed or transferred to you.

And if you can grab hold of it and maybe just face it or be aware of it, then you allow your child to maybe not have to face it the same way. Like that's like evolution in a process. I think it's a conscious evolution. Like we can do that if we're aware that it's happening. But it's hard because you don't want to, some of those things are tough to face. Hey, man, we've got this. In our family, have a pattern of kids being molested.

Like, it's hard to talk about. But you have to figure that out. Otherwise, it goes right downstream, right? It's an interesting thing to think about. Absolutely. And the things we try to stuff away or don't talk about, like what we resist persists, right? It's just going to get stronger. Yep.

And usually more pernicious. It's like try to shove it away. It's going to get crafty or coming out somehow. It's like unless you stare openly at the beast, you know, and try to soften. and those difficult conversations, just like allow the vulnerability that's required. I think a lot of people really struggle with that. So we feel like, oh, no, if I say, if people see the real thing that I think, that I deem ugly, they're not going to love me, they're not going to accept me, I'll be ousted from the tribe,

and I'll die alone and sad and scared, you know? So it's like, no, revealing the thing that terrifies you, gives you power and strength. And if you're around people who reject that, find new people. Like, you know, it's not always that easy. It's like your family will reject a lot of that. But it's just like knowing the power of being able to share those most tender parts

because we need that. And thinking again of the deathbed version of you, that person, regret they'll have is, you know, possibly the things that you wished you would have said. Yeah. I think that speaks volumes of, I think everything's fractal. And the way we just talked about families being afraid, so too does that same problem happen in the workplace. And like that gets back to where we are. Like how much of the problems we face today are just fear. Like we're afraid to stand up to our boss. We're afraid to do it. Right. Because we're afraid to lose, which is a weird way of

saying we're afraid to die. But in some ways, the things that you push down or you don't stand up to, you're kind of giving them permission to rule you. You know, the same way that you give your boss authority, so too do you give the person that molested you the authority if you don't confront them. This idea of confrontation, this idea of standing up, this idea of authenticity, standing before the thing that scares you is enough to scare the thing that scares you. I should write that down. I love that. Yeah.

Yeah, man. I think the fear, especially we could feel it right now. You know, it's like, it's been around for a few years now. But the COVID thing really unlocked real feelings in a way that is terrifying for a lot of us. I just had this memory. I think you said this on Jeff's shows. It was about AI, right?

It was that AI is a reflection of us and it terrifies us because it's us. Yeah. But it's also wonderful because it's us. I love that, right? It's like how do you see the things you're afraid of as gifts, especially if you talk about them?

Yeah. They are. Here's something that I've learned going through tragedies is that it gives you a superpower. And it's hard to figure that out because in the beginning, most tragedies rip something away from you. Part of you feels like you've died, be it your innocence or be it a life or be it a goal or be it an outcome. Whatever it is, in real tragedies, something is ripped away from you. And there's a hole.

But over time, something grows back in that hole. And that hole is a superpower. And it allows you to see and other people that thing that happened to you. And in doing that, the superpower is now you have an opportunity to help someone when you needed help. And that is like this powerful mode of healing. Like, holy shit, I can't fix what happened to me. But I see it happen into this kid. And you better believe I'm going to go over there and say something.

I'm going to do something. And in a weird way, you get to heal yourself by healing someone. else. And like I really believe the world's talking to us in these patterns. And it's this idea of like, look, I'm going to have to crush you, George. You know, I feel like there was some, there was some sort of sit down meeting between me and the creative. It's like, okay, George, I'm going to need you going to be rough. I'm going to do some fucking mean shit to you. But I love you. And the reason I'm doing it is because I think you're strong enough to come out the other side and help other people. Now, get in the game. You know, and it's hard to think about that when it

happens because you're like, why? It's bullshit. No one loves me. You go through all these questions, but like ultimately you're given a sign of, hey, remember the contract? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, there's a contract. Okay, okay, I get it. Yeah, you're right. That did suck. Now I'm going to go help people, though.

And if you can do it, maybe that's what happened, Jocelyn, with you seeing your dad. Like, maybe you had this contract. You're like, okay, now you're going to go out and it's not going to be easy. But I want you just to shun your gifts in the world of industry. Yeah, you can make millions of dollars, being branding and getting into case. You could probably make millions. but I'd rather you fight to get a sandwich to help people. Like, that's such a better way to live your life.

That makes you such a more beautiful person. It makes you someone that I want to be around. It makes other people attracted to you when you can provide a contagious way to look at life. I think that's what you're doing to people. And I hope other people are inspired by that because I'm inspired by it. Oh, thank you.

Yeah, I think it's sale. There's this. Have you seen True Detective, Season 1? No, I haven't. I'll write it down. What's it about? Tell me about it. I don't want to give anything away.

Okay, okay. But it does have Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson, and they're brilliant. Yeah. Without giving too much away, there's a line I love. And it's an exchange, actually. And the exchange goes, they're looking up at the sky, right? Looking at the stars, the night sky. And it's something like, look at it.

at all the like dark darkness out there and here's this story about you know used to just be all darkness and then there were stars and and uh and look at it now there's more and more stars so if you ask me the lights winning it's like the way they put it is it's a much more much more eloquent than that but i just love that notion of it used to just be darkness and now look at it it might look still like a lot of vast space in between, but the light's winning. I just really, I think that's one of those things

that can give us hope. It's like, yeah, there's going to be a lot of dark terrain and we've just got to keep going, looking for the light. Yeah, and every one of us is like a star. And every one of us that turns on presents inspiration for everybody else

because there may not be anything more inspiring than the night sky to look up, you know, instead of looking down at your phone, maybe you're looking up at what is possible and you're beginning to see or create your own story of constellations in your life. Like there's something there, right? When you look to the heavens to be inspired.

And I love that. I'm going to have to check that out. Yeah. It also reminds me of this idea of metaphors. Like how powerful are metaphors in our life and the stories we tell? What's your take on that? Yeah. I mean, they give us, that's like the kind of the point of when we don't really have all the words to express everything that we're feeling.

So metaphor is like a tiny story. Sometimes like I'm going to convey this meaning through imagery. This is also what I love about haiku, which my dad is a master at. He's been doing it since longer than I've been here in the world. And it's that's like capturing this moment in as much precision as possible, this juxtaposition in the natural world that gives you this feeling of, indescribable wonder and connection and complicated mix of feelings. Sometimes like wonder and loss at the same time.

I think that's the power of metaphor and short form narrative and story and poetry. It's so beautiful. Shout out to your dad for, what's your dad's name? You don't mind me asking. Brett, Brett Brady. Brett Brady. Shout out to Brett Brady for bringing into this world, a beautiful idea of language and symbols and Jocelyn and everything she's doing.

Like, your dad sounds like an amazing person. I'm stoked he's alive and creating poems and making the world better. It's not odd to me that he's in Hawaii because it's so beautiful here. It's not odd to me that you spend time here because it's so beautiful here. But let's stay on this vibe for a minute about language and imagery. It seems that like poetic metaphors or poetry in general is a great way for me to transfer an image in my mind through the use of words and put that image in your mind. It might be the closest thing to telepathy. Yeah.

Man, I think what they need to do with painting and cinema can do that in a way, but poetry is like this little, I don't know, package of magic, especially when. That's so perfect. All right. And actually, can I read to you? Please, I would love it. This was shared with me today. So somebody in the acting community in Portland died this week, much too young. And this poem was shared in tribute. I just think it's so beautiful.

It's not too long. So let's see. It's called for M by Miko Harvey. So here it goes. I don't want you to be nervous. Maybe thinking of a walrus would help. Have you seen the video of the penguin accidentally stepping on a sleeping walrus? It thought it was a rock.

The wallace wakes up like, what the fuck? And the penguin scurries off like, oh shit. Sometimes it's funny watching a surprise happen, and not just funny, but kind of amazing. Like, you never really know what's what when it comes to this planet. Then again, when it's you getting surprised, that's different. Especially for tender ones like us, what are we supposed to do? It's bad for our hearts, you know. I hope you won't need pills like I do.

I think I get so scared because I'm greedy. I want to hold on to everything. The world wants to take it away. What the fuck? The number of hours we have together is actually not so large. Please linger near the door uncomfortably instead of just leaving. Please forget your scarf in my life and come back later for it. Man.

Yeah, that one hit. Yeah. it's really true to life and in a way that is real it's true it's real yeah yeah that's the power poetry especially when we are going through these really heavy moments that we don't know how to describe and losing people is one of the hardest you know losing things people and animals and beings that we love is indescribably difficult and this gives us some language we can hold on to. It brings up another interesting point that it's in these times of fighting,

it's in these times of difficulty, it's in these times of loss that we really find the inspiration to create. Maybe it's a memory of someone we lost or, you know, maybe it's facing the fear or something like that. But maybe the only way you can get a Jocelyn Brady is by, having a life that is made difficult. You know, maybe the only reason you're able to have the deep thoughts you have or the inspiration that you can do for people or to come up with as much content as you do

or find ways to, you know, pay your mortgage is because you're forced to. Maybe that's something that's working on us. What do you, what do you take on that? I mean, adversity is give rise to, you know, perseverance. Right. And because what's the other option? Like your house burns down, a lava, the volcano eats it. What are you going to do?

You're going to give up? Starved to death? Like what do you know? Because we have this will to live. And so it's like you fight. You keep going. You look for the opportunities. You refuse to give up and you refuse to let the obstacles keep you down.

Get knocked around some, sure. you know learn some things fall down figure things out find your balance lose it again find it again i mean one of my favorite analogies to use here is surfing which i grew up doing and i started surfing because i could no longer run so i was a sprinter and when i was 14 i got really injured all my joints were like nope we don't like the hard things the hard food pavements and things it's like okay what's soft i'm going to get in the water i'm going to start surfing and man nothing teaches you about just patience and perseverance and perspective and paying attention. Just keeping heightened awareness and you're just looking for the right wave for you.

And you work, you paddle, you go for it, you put in the effort. And the first few, several times, it won't work out the way you'd like or you imagine. You know, you're not going to stand up and be a Kelly Slater who, whoever you're going to tumble and you're going to fall maybe hit something. It's terrifying when you're doing the washing machine underwater. And I remember the first time I got super scared. I couldn't find which way it was up and I was fighting so hard. And that's also this important lesson.

And there are times just you need to let go and let your body relax because it will find the right way. You can't fight. you can't win in your fight against nature. You have to allow some things to be and then go, okay, where now is the opening? I'm settled and now I can find it. And there's some error. Yeah, that's beautiful.

It's so true. I love, I love that what you said about trying to fight nature. In some ways, whether you're talking about nature as being pulled under in a riptide or falling down after rock climbing or, trying to fight what's going on in your life. We live in nature and we have our human nature. And if you just take time to see what's happening in nature,

a lot of the times I'll show you what's happening in your own body. And this idea of not fighting it, you know, I know that there is, like you can create diamonds out of pressure. I get it. And I understand fighting for a goal or fighting to get to the top of the mountain. But there's a difference, I think, in fighting your nature. There's that, you know, there's, there's a great,

what's the one with like the frog and the scorpion, right? Where they down by the water and the scorpions like, hey, man, give me a lift across the river. And the frogs like, are you kidding me? You're going to sting me, man. You're a scorpion. He's like, no, no, I really got to get across. Frog's like, all right.

So they get halfway across. And of course, the scorpion stings them. And the frog's like, what the fuck? He's like, it's in my nature, man. Like, that was such a good one. It's in all of our natures. Like, we all do things like. that and when it happens, maybe you can laugh about it.

Maybe you can remember the frog and a scorpion and just be like, yeah, it's in my nature. Of course I was going to do that. Like, but you can work on it from there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe not that frog. They might have another chance.

Yeah, right? Maybe you don't get a chance, but what are you going to do? Yeah. And that's like, that's funny coming like the dual nature, the myriad ways you can use words, right? Because I mean, you know the same thing. I was like, I fight and I don't give up. And then it's like, but I don't fight.

Like, I don't, you don't fight against nature, but then you do fight against things that, you know, that can hold you down. Yeah. Yeah. And in giving, you know, fight for things you believe in, but not against things you'll never be able to change. Like, the way a tree grows or like the way the ocean tumbles. I don't know. It's a, it's interesting to think about it. I love that, that how many meanings.

Yeah. One word can convey. Okay, well, that means, like how many, how many ways, how many directions can your life go? How many, it's like that creativity thing people do. Okay, I'm going to give you an object and I want you to tell me, tell me as many things you think it is. It's a hat. It's a, it's a baseball. It's, you know, however many things you create of ideas you can come up with, however many different meanings of a word you can come up with, that transfers into how many directions your life can go.

Because a lot of the times we get stuck in a problem and we have like this rotating. real of horrible fucking things we say about ourselves. So why not use that creativity experiment of like, okay, what else? Okay, I shouldn't fight. Wait, wait a minute. I shouldn't fight what? I'm fighting this. No, I'm fighting that.

But all that internal dialogue points out, it points up when you're down in the water. Like that's what orientates you into the right direction is redefining the language, redefining your words. And when you redefine your language, you redefine your thoughts. And when you redefine your thoughts, you can redirect yourself in an area that's beneficial to you and everyone around you. And in doing that, you can create a pathway for other people to follow. And it really helps, it really helps center you and make you understand that you're part of this whole. And that's another part I hope people understand is that when you feel down or when life is just crushing you, understand that, you know, this two shall pass and you're part of a bigger system.

And that should alleviate at least some of the stress. It's a good mental exercise I think people can do. So I don't know. You know, it's going back to that talking about the stars. One of my favorite quotes is Oscar Wilde saying we're all in the gutters. Just some of us are looking up at the stars. I really love that. It's like you always have that choice.

You always have that choice. And think of all these beautiful minds who have brought us these ideas like Victor Frankl or that movie. Yeah, life is beautiful. It's like you, that's your, what is, Frankl's quote is something like that. Like, you know, your last, I can't remember it exactly, which is basically the gist of it saying you always have a choice on how you choose, like you can choose to see and follow through. Even if you feel like you have no agency, you can at least choose how you see and treat people. That's power. That's ultimate power

And that's power No one can ever take from you You know and he proved it by Going through a concentration camp And trying to figure out Like why are some people dying And why are some people living And this will to live

And this ability that you have agency You can't control In life you can't control what happens to you But you and you alone Get to control the meaning of the event And there's real power in that Another I love like I keep this book of like

words to inspire by me all the time. And as soon as I start feeling like, this is just not working. This is, what is this is dumb. As soon as I start thinking on that road, I just move up in that book and I'm like, I just replace that pattern of negativity with like,

dreams do come true and they can exceed your wildest imagination. You know, when you just take out this one and put in that one, like it fundamentally changes the way you see the world. And so I don't know. It's such a fascinating time. I'm really stoked to talk about. You've referenced a few great books in this conversation

so far. And I'm curious if maybe you could list off a couple other books that people listening to our conversation may be interested in. Let's see. Yeah, man, search for meeting. They recommend required reading. What else? I loved. I wonder if you can even see. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. The first ones. Well, usually the first that comes to mind. What do I have over there? Ooh, the War of Art. art. That one's great. Have you read that one? The War of Art? I haven't read it. I'm going to write it down right now. It is amazing. Stephen Presfield. He's talking about resistance, especially in the creative act, and how we choose to go forward. The obstacle is the way. Love. Ryan Holiday. Also, oh, what is it called? The Brain That Changes Itself.

Norman Deutsch is a really fascinating look at how early neuroscience and beyond, not even early neuroscience. Like going back, I think he goes back to the 40s and 50s and some of these stories, but just basically the brain's amazing capacity to rewire and change itself. So even when people are blind, this guy invents a way for them to see using electric nodes on the back that are, plugged into a television and then they're perceiving sight through the cells on their back and he's kind of like wow the brain eyes don't see the brain sees it's just these are the organs used for that but you can adapt in other ways so that's a super fun and cool book to me um yeah oh anything by rald doll going back to kid books or his essays or who else am I thinking of that had these really beautiful essays Joan Didion one of my favorite essay writers yeah those are the ones coming top of mind today

that's awesome that's a lot of them and I'm hopeful people listening this can either write them down or go back and listen to it because it's fascinating to me I love the way your brain works and I think that that's one reason you're so successful, is that you help people see things in a different way. And it's really cool to get to hear how you became that way and the influence is on you that help you continue to change the way you see the world. And I really think the people out there, including myself, are inspired by it and they look up to it. So I'm thankful. First off, we got to me and thankful that you're doing what you're doing. And I look forward to see everything that you continue to do. And that being said, where can people find you? What do you have coming up

And what are you excited about? Jocelyn Brady.com is my website. My old one, I hope, is rerouting properly, but jocelyn Brady.com. Jossel Them, T-H-E-M on Instagram, Jocelyn Brady, YouTube, Jocelyn Brady, LinkedIn, and Substack. So those are all the places. Look up at the sky. And there we are.

What am I looking forward to? and I'm excited about. I am, oh, I'm launching a course with a friend and colleague of mine. She's a therapist.

And so we're bringing together our respective strengths. And we also really both share a dark sense of humor. We love laughing. And we want to give people these skills and tools that we really love most,

you know, like being a person in the world, especially when there's a lot of fear and uncertainty and robots and corporations, not being nice. It's called human skills for a robot world. So I'm excited about that.

And looking forward to also continuing to have this beautiful summer, these walks in the morning that are just blue sky and perfect weather. I love it. For someone that might be interested in learning about human skills in a robot world, Like what maybe you could break down a little bit about what people could expect to learn there. Yeah. So it's on playcientists.com if you want the full course information. But it's basically teaching.

So emotional granularity and awareness. So becoming more aware of your emotions, how to work through them, how to develop resiliency, tapping on your strengths. So looking at how do you, what do you do best and how can you strengthen those strengths and use them, particularly when, you know, you feel anguish or need nourishment. I talked about resiliency and creativity and the ability to feel your real fucking feelings without burning things down. I think that's important.

That's in there. Yeah, finding your way out of difficult situations and seeing opportunities where many others would only see obstacles. Yeah, that's really well said. And I think we need it now more than ever. It's interesting to think about that there's a general, there's like a last generation of people who grew up without the internet. And in some ways,

it's incumbent upon that generation to teach the skills back to the next generation. You know, and it sounds a lot like that's kind of what's going on there. Yeah. It's so, it's so wild to think about that. I imagine every generation goes through some version of this. But this one feels,

so, maybe everyone says that. This one does feel so different. It's like people always had screens and the ability to connect with anyone in the world at any time since childhood. What? Do they, do you understand? Like, that's incredible. But also, it's the, like, how do you teach people the value? It's like, are you getting your hands dirty?

Are you planting things? Are you riding your bike for hours without having to check in? There's a lot that's lost. And for somebody who grew up in my generation, that's a hard thing for me to reconcile. It's like I wish upon everyone that ability to be able to just check out and be completely alone without being tethered to device. And to me, that feels like a loss, but I don't know what it feels like to grow up with another option. Yeah, and I think it's just important to we stay connected to the real world around. us while we develop these skills learning AI and the necessary tools, you know, to get stuff

created and done and communicate and connect. Yeah. Yeah, it's refreshing. In some ways when I'm hearing you talk, I'm seeing this beautiful world emerge, but it takes builders. It takes people that takes risks, you know, and it's just beautiful to see people taking part and helping shape the reality around us. And I wish more people would do it. And I think that more people will do it. But it's just a matter of showing them and being an example to everyone else that sometimes this uncomfortable things in life and this idea of uncertainty that seems to have a negative connotation to it is something you can embrace and it can fuel you and it can be something you're comfortable with. Sometimes uncertainty can mean freedom. Would you rather be safe or would

you rather be free? And you've got to make a choice in there somewhere. Yeah. And imagine if everything was certain and plans and there were no options. And imagine if we only lived by one person's version of certainty and we didn't agree with it. Yeah. Awful. So think of the like how wonderful it is that we get uncertainty. We get to be surprised. We get to be delighted. Sure, there are things along the path that aren't as comfortable. But we get that in exchange for dealing with the discomfort. We get magic. Yeah.

I'm going to write that down. That's a quotable quote right there. I love it. Well, Jocelyn, this has been a really awesome time. And I hope you can come back. And maybe we should do some panels.

We should get Jeff on here, maybe some other people, and we could just bounty about and talk about different things. It's really fun, and I really enjoyed it. Yeah, likewise. Thank you so much. Fantastic. Well, hang on for one second. I'm going to talk to you briefly afterwards, but I'm going to tell all our friends goodbye.

And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for your time. Going to the show notes, check out Jocelyn. She's got a bunch of cool stuff coming up and check out her YouTube channel. You'll be blown away by what you learn and the manner in which you learn it. So that's what we got for today. Aloha.