TrueLife - Jonas Rosen - This is What Psychedelic Therapy Sounds Like

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/www.innervisionpsychedelics.comhttps://www.mycomeditations.com/retreat-options/https://youtube.com/@CosmicJonashttps://m.youtube.com/channel/UC6bmn-6O0s0-F7rNH6Xx07AJonas Rosen LMSWI'm a psychedelic professional, and licensed social worker specializing in Psilocybin-assisted therapy.Having worked at MycoMeditations for over 3 years, I've participated in dozens of group psychedelic sessions, and worked alongside hundreds of clients. My work integrates mindfulness techniques with transpersonal psychology, to help others heal and grow with plant medicines.In 2020, I founded a company named Inner Vision to provide education and compassionate support around the psychedelic experience.I've repeatedly witnessed powerful psychedelic healing in-action, and am continually inspired by the power of plant medicines to help us self-actualize and grow to our fullest. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining.

I hope that there's a little miracle that happened that you're not quite aware of, but it's about to just dawn on you and the world is just about to wrap you in this warm embrace. I have an incredible guest for you today, Jonas Rosen, psychedelic facilitator and integration coach at Micah Meditations. He's a psychedelic professional, licensed social workers,

specializing in psilocybin-assisted theory. He's the founder of his own company, Intervision, which I think everybody should go and check out. That'll be in the show notes down below. He provides education and compassionate support around the psychedelic experience. He's got his own YouTube channel. He does incredible interviews.

He does incredible videos. And he has found a way to synthesize the whole enchilada. I really mean it when I say I thoroughly admire the way in which you can translate the vision that you have into reality. And when I watch some of your videos, I'm like, gosh, this guy is on it. I think it shows through. I think your passion comes through in that, Jonas. So thank you very much for being here today. How are you?

Oh, man. I'm great now. What an introduction. Yeah, love the energy. And yeah, just really, really appreciate that very kind and just warm, warm introduction. It's true pleasure to be here with you. Yeah. Well, the feeling's mutual.

I was, for those who may not know, maybe we can start off about an origin story. I found that sometimes that's like a good place to begin. And it helps to, it kind of helps to show people. people, little secrets or little hints that may reside in themselves about who they can be. So I always like to do a little investigation. Would you be so kind as maybe, and you can go back as far as you want, wherever you want to start at? But you are, seem to be at the foreground of exploring some of these incredible mystical experiences. And I was wondering what brought you to begin investigating this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where to begin? You know, it's, it's, it's,

It's interesting. I can remember even from a very young age, always being fascinated by the mysteries. You know, like I always just had so many questions. I remember being like seven or eight years old in my elementary school library. And there was this book on UFOs. And I was like, that. Like, I want to read that one, you know. And yeah, yeah, yeah, from a very young age. It was like UFOs, like the mysteries of the cosmos, you know, telepath. abilities, extra sensory perception, like lockness, monster, ghosts, you know, afterlife, spirits. Like, I don't know. I mean, I didn't grow up in a religious or spiritual family.

Like, I was just fascinated by the big questions, you know, and fast forward a bunch of years. I was, well, really, really like an inflection point, a major kind of turning point in my life that brought me to where I am right now was my. very first experience with psychedelics. I took psilocybin mushrooms when I was about 18 or 19, and I really didn't seek it out, you know, like I was, I was kind of raised to really fear all these different substances. I approached with like a great sense of trepidation and fear, but that curiosity killed the cat there. You know, like I just, I was curious. I was, I was, I was,

you know, yeah, the desire to explore was, was, was there. And that, um, that, um, overcame the sense of fear, you know? And so I went into that first psilocybin experience and really just had such a profound experience on so many levels. I mean, I wasn't in ways I never could have really anticipated in a very practical sense. It helped me to really work through a lot of the anxiety that I had in my life, like kind of like an existential anxiety, to some extent of social anxiety, trying to find my way, you know, for many years, I just felt like I had a a lot of clarity about my values and different passions, but felt like I was just floating adrift at sea with no clear direction.

And from that very first psilocybin experience, a lot changed. I found a new sense of wellness, a new sense of clarity, a new sense of life, meaning, and purpose. And beyond that, just felt like I connected more deeply with a sense of awe and wonder that life is such an incredible mystery and a miracle, you know, in a way that had just been passing me by for many, many years without me even recognizing it. There was a moment in that first, in that, in that experience when I was, you know, I was laying in a field of grass, was going to school out in Nashville at the time, and there was a park there that kind of overlooked the city. He was a really

beautiful spot. And I remember looking up and all the seemingly ordinary mundane things, you know like birds flying overhead the clouds in the sky the trees swung in the wind the grass all of these things we kind of had just taken for granted all of a sudden were absolutely i was absolutely transfixed like every single blade of grass is such an incredible mystery an entire an infinite world in and of itself the moment that we pay attention you know so it's like it opened up all these these doors of exploration and fascination and fascination in my life that really was the beginning of of spiritual opening in my life where you know in the span of a relatively short period of time I went from being an atheist and a materialist to not that you know

someone who's absolutely convinced that there's just as vast and infinite as this physical universe is there's so much more to the mystery of existence than what we can perceive with our physical senses and there's so much more to what we are so much more to consciousness than a physical body, you know. Anyway, yeah. So, I mean, from that first experience, I really just kind of dove dove in head first. I've really felt a strong sense of passion around exploring. I read everything that I could, all the research that was coming out in books and literature around psychedelics and psychedelic therapy and all of that really validated my own experience of healing and growth within the span of a single day, you know? And that, that just, it was validating to the point that I was like, I felt this growing sense of passion.

Like, I want to get involved. I want to do this. You know, so I ended up pursuing a degree in social work and in talk therapy. I got a master's degree there. And that opened up an opportunity for me to now work full time in the field of psychedelic assisted therapy. Over the past four years, I've been living and working pretty much full time down in Jamaica where psilocybin and other plant-based psychedelics are fully,

are fully legal. So I work at a retreat center there. It's called micromeditations. And, you know, we've got an amazing team of licensed therapists and, you know, registered nurse on every retreat and just like an incredibly experienced and gifted team to create a safe and supportive environment around supporting these exploration of non-ordinary states of consciousness. And of course, the healing that comes out of that. But it goes well beyond that, you know, to all domains of life, from the creative to the life meeting and purpose, you know, occupational relationships and certainly like spiritual as well, energetic, the mystical, the trans personal. And that's really like the bulk of my, my passion of my life work has really intersected there, you know, so, yeah. It's beautiful.

You know, and I find a common thread that runs through the stories of so many interesting people. and it is this sort of realization. And I think I caught a glimpse of it when you spoke about laying down in the field and seeing the beauty and everything. Sometimes for me, when I hear that, it seems to me to be the lifting of fear or at least the confrontation to fear. Like, you know, it seems that we've been conditioned to fear from the very beginning. And I'm wondering if that's something that you have a relationship with. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, it's a great point because it's a great.

great point. Well, you know, there's kind of like that that, that, that cliche or that quote that, that, uh, the magic happens outside of our comfort zone. Yeah. Leaving the safe cocoon, spreading our wings to explore. It's a leap of faith. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a leap into the unknown. And, and, and, and adaptive human response to that. But yeah, I mean, like I, like I mentioned, from a young age, I was, I was kind of taught to be fearful of, uh, mushroom. and all substances, told that this is bad and it's going to fry my brain. And, you know, there's nothing good about exploring any of these non-ordinary states, you know, which couldn't be further from the truth.

And also flies in the face of what our ancestors, indigenous people from all around the world, literally every continent of the globe, for thousands of years, you know, the consensus, the clear consensus of thousands of years of human experience. experience is that exploring these non-ordinary states is somehow central to what this all is, you know, to self-actualization, to living life with the most wellness, and also to realizing our fullest potential, like blossoming to our fullest extent, you know. But you're very right that like inescapable, inevitable in that process is coming face to face with fear. And moving towards

taking steps in the direction of courage. There is something really archa tippal about that. It's like the hero or heroine's journey. There's this descent into the underworld and coming face to face with terror in order to, and moving through that, of course, not running away, not avoiding, not numbing, not distracting, moving towards that

to unlock more of our potential. and more of our gifts, you know? Yeah, that's really well said. One of my favorite quotes is this quote that says, courage is not doing something in the absence of fear. Anybody can do that. Courage is doing something in spite of the fear. And for me in my life,

I've found that there's this opportunity that continually presents itself. And I think it does for other people. And I'm curious to get your opinion on this. But it is that confrontation with fear. It is this becoming aware of that which you are fearful of. And the more you begin to hold it, confront it, stare at it, the more you become familiar with that environment. And while it may not get easier because the fears get bigger and bigger, you do begin to establish a pattern of how to deal with it. And establishing that pattern with fear, I think it broadens your horizon to what is possible.

Is that something that, like, does that sound plausible? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really, really well said. So do you, like, maybe you can give us an example of what was it that you were able to confront to take you to the next step in your career? Like, so you go to school, you understand talk therapy. Clearly you have this passion to help people. But it must have been at times. maybe it felt, I don't know, unreasonable or maybe it felt, it felt difficult, but what was it that allowed you to take that next step into the unknown and go to Jamaica, to start working with Michael, to start working within theogens?

Like, what was it that got you through that roadblock? Or maybe you can explain that step in the process? Yeah, it's a good question. I appreciate that question because, I don't know, it's helpful. reflection just for my own my own process my own journey you know in some ways um yeah well i mean definitely it's it's a pretty unconventional path you know like going to school with other social workers not many people were going into the uh joining me down in jamaican uh you know going into the field of psychedelic assisted therapy in fact the only time i heard the the word psychedelic

assisted therapy in in my years of of education where pretty much when it was coming out of my mouth you know um but there is there is this quality of um of when there's a deep enough conviction, when there's a clarity of passion, when I felt like I had perspective on my values, you know, and my values weren't more so than following the safe and secure path. My values were to follow my heart, you know, to do something that feels genuinely inherently,

like rich and rewarding and meaningful and exciting and stimulating and engaging rather than you know falling money or any sort of like any anything else which you know of course I wouldn't have gone into the field of of social work if it was all about all about money but no it's it's true I mean there's an element of a leap of faith to it that you know I was I was like kind of a broke graduate student at the at the time and I was kind of like paying my way to be a volunteer at a psychedelic retreat center initially like that's how I first kind of got came to the fold there and um clarity clarity of of of of intent and uh and a and a um willingness to be uncomfortable with with not knowing you know

to move in that direction um is is really what sort of like under under under under under under under under that whole process. But I mean, in a lot of ways, it felt like following my excitement as well. You know, it was the possibility, however remote of really getting directly involved in the field of that like the job of my dreams, essentially. Like, this was like, how could I pass the opportunity up,

even if it does all not lead anywhere? You know, so I felt. in a way it felt like there was an element of fear but it felt like an obvious choice like there was no hesitation there you know yeah i love it i the reason i ask is i i found myself in that position and i think a lot of people that go through their everyday life i think part of them here's the siren call for living a life that is more fulfilling and it's scary to hear that call it's sort of like Odysseus hearing the sirens call him to the rocks. And like, you know, he, he bundled himself and he tied himself to the mass.

So he couldn't move. And he couldn't, he couldn't answer that call because he was afraid. He knew the people that have gone before and were going to be crashed on the rocks. And so were their dreams and their family's well-being. And in some ways, when I hear your story, I hear the idea of like, this voice is calling to me. Let me explore it. And when I see what you've accomplished by exploring that inner voice, It's very, very inspiring.

And I hope that people see that and hear that and begin listening to the voice that calls to them. Because I think that there is some real evidence based in self-fulfillment there. And I think that people, if they can find the first idea of courage or fear or standing to it, then they can begin to hear that voice grow louder and louder. And it becomes like a light that lights the pathway forward. And I wanted to bring that out to the people's attention. If I can shift gears just for a quick moment here on this idea that beginning as an apprentice or beginning as someone who volunteered at a retreat center, it sounds to me a lot like this archaic revival of beginning to learn things at the very bottom level and then working your way to the top. And I'm wondering if you see a pattern there with the way the world's emerging now, maybe in your life and the way that things are emerging now.

It's got to be that way, right? I mean, it's it's it's got to be that way. Well, I mean, specifically in the domain of like psychedelic assistive therapy, right? Like in indigenous cultures and societies, they're the wise elders. Yeah. To guide, you know, and the wise elders, the maestras, the maestras, the maestras, they're the wisdomkeepers and they're, they're, they, they, through, which they've earned. through experience, through decades, a lifetime of experience, right? And, well, I guess really, really in any domain or discipline that has, that has relevance and truth. But certainly, I mean,

in the field of psychedelic assist therapy, there are just elements to it that you can't read about in a book, you know, when there's a situation unfolding in real time, there's no amount of of book knowledge that can tell you how to navigate internally and externally, right? Or maybe a book can tell you on one level, but like the practice of that, the experiential practice of that. Like just as an example that comes to mind, like if someone is in a psychedelic experience and having like a big emotional cathartic release, sometimes there can be like a big powerful energy that's coming through.

And sometimes it's a absolutely beautiful thing. And sometimes it can seem, well, for lack of a better word, especially to someone who's not really familiar with non-ordinary states of consciousness, it can seem disturbing or kind of bizarre. Like, what is going on here, right? The capacity to regulate, to self-regulate and to maintain an unconditionally warm and supportive presence. And to trust, to have faith in this process.

These are like fundamental components to the work that can really only be honed and refined and cultivated through direct experience. Right. So yeah, I mean, it's that experiential piece is so key. And learning from the elders or learning from the ones, the people who have already walked the path, you know, is is, is just, is just essential. And I think, you know, in some ways, that's, that's needed as well as in a, in a collective sense for, for, for humankind, both in, in, in the whole psychedelic movement, but also in, I mean, the collective evolution

of human consciousness, you know, where we're kind of like, my sense is that humankind is slowly but steadily and maybe rapidly kind of waking up, you know, from a, from a, from a, from a slumber of ignorance. And who's going to, well, again, it's like the people who will naturally emerge as leaders are the ones who have cultivated that, that experience, you know, um, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Does, did I kind of answer your question there? Absolutely. It was a beautiful answer. And I, I, I think that, you know, any, Anybody, and it kind of brushes on the idea of having the experience, a transformative experience outside a ritualistic setting.

We talked about leaders. We talked about lived experience and those people helping us, starting at the bottom and how you build that lived experience. Because the truth is, anybody, maybe not anybody, a large number of people, regardless of their experience, could be in the presence of someone who has a beautiful psychedelic experience and be moved. But try being a facilitator when someone has an experience that thinks you're the devil and wants to kill you, wants to fight you or wants to punch you in the face. That's a whole different world. Like how are you going to deal with that? Are you someone that can set

aside the emotion? Are you someone that can set aside the ability to be like, okay, this person is having a bit of a break right here in a way that can be incredibly transforming, but they're going to need a lot of help integrating this. You know, and I think that that's kind of where we're beginning to see some of the cracks in the foundation when it comes to the model of psychedelic retreat centers and treatment is, you know, we are building this framework up. And there is this sort of awesome conversation that's beginning to happen about how do we move forward from here. And what I see emerging with places like what you have with with micromeditations or when I listen to the words of Dr. Jessica Rochester or if you look at some of the people coming from maps or, you

know, Nick Murray. There's so many beautiful people out there that are really trying to build up this sort of rights of passage or what I like to call like the new Illucinian mysteries around it that can help people, right? Like, like, and I think it's your part of that, Jonas. I think that you're a huge part of it, not only in with Michael Meditations, but with your YouTube channel, your ability to explain what's happening the way you see it. But more than that, I see this beautiful story.

merging with your whole life. And I love the fact that you're sharing it. Like, hey, here's how I got started. Here's the step that kind of got me through the edge. Here's where I began my message. It's like I think it's beautiful to get to see it unfold in real time. What do you think about building this new Elyucinian mystery's framework? Well, I really, really appreciate that.

Yeah. And I love how you phrase that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's essential. We need it. We need it. We need it. You know, you mentioned the word, you mentioned the phrase like rate of passage as well, right? Like that's something that comes to mind in your previous question that like we're missing that from in so many ways like the process of initiation. Yes. You know, to a, to a greater level of wisdom and connection and awareness.

Again, like every indigenous society in one way or another, has this embedded into the very fabric of their sociocultural, religious, spiritual lives, you know, for a reason. and the lack of that is very apparent in the leadership of our world. We have a bunch of little children leading our, you know, our governmental, socioeconomic, corporate institutions, people who lack on some level. And I'm not, you know, obviously that's a vast overgeneralization. This isn't true for everyone. but in a broad sense, I mean, if we just look at the trajectory of the human collective over the past couple of decades and what we, you know, the values and the, that have been espoused and

taught to us, in so many ways, it's reflective of a lack of emotional intelligence. It's reflective of a lack of wisdom. It's a reflective of a lack of awareness. It's a reflective of a disconnect. spirit a disconnect from oneness a disconnect from the sacredness of life a disconnect from divinity and and these are all all at the very core of like these rice of rites of passage the illusion a Lucianian mysteries right these these mystery schools these initiatory practices that help us to well

again, it all kind of connects with what you were saying earlier as well is facing fear and moving through it. This is what cultivates growth and wisdom, right? And again, of course, that doesn't just have to be with psychedelics. I would say psychedelics are one of the most ancient and powerful and universal tools, but there are many different approaches and orientations to that. But again, yeah, we need this. We need this. I heard someone say recently,

a while ago actually, I can't even remember who said this quote, but humankind as a collective is now in a race between consciousness and catastrophe. Race between consciousness and catastrophe. Either we evolve on that deeper consciousness level or inevitably, we will self-destruct. If we just keep going the way that we're going right now, we will self-destruct.

The only thing that could possibly save us, at this point, you know, clever politics, socioeconomic initiatives and policies are not enough. The only thing that could possibly save us is an inner transformation in the minds and hearts of people in mass, right? And again, you know, psychedelics by no means are the only tool, but they're one of the most ancient and powerful and effective and efficient. And that really is the bigger picture mission behind that that's kind of drives my engagement, my investment in this work, is like, how do we create transformation? How do we create healing? How do we move towards self-actualization? What are the tools and practice and modalities that evoke or elicit that, that cultivate that, that nourish that fully focus there?

Because this is what's needed right now. Yeah, that's really well put. So what are, like, what are those tools? Like, how are you using those things to help people become self-actualized? Or do, I know that no one really has the full answer, but it sounds to me like you've done quite a bit of thinking about these things. And maybe you could share with us how we do that. Sure. Well, specifically, like in respect to psychedelics. Yeah, to start with psychedelics and you could broaden it out in a fractal pattern to the rest of the society. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think it really, it really all begins with meeting a person where he or she is at, you know, and starting there. Where are we at right here now, you know? What are we open to?

What are we exploring? What are the challenges that we're navigating in our lives? There's, you know, this idea that for many people suffering is their only spiritual. teacher without even knowing it because when we when we experience hardship in life and again you know I don't it's it's hard not to overgeneralize in these cases everyone is different and unique but in broad strokes you know when when we experience hardship when we experience enough hardship eventually there comes a question of like there's got to be another way there's got to be another way And you hear this in the story of many of the world spiritual teachers and visionaries,

Buddhism as a, you know, religion wasn't born out of a quest to find God or even to find enlightenment. It started with the simple question of how do we live without suffering, you know? So suffering is pointing to the ways that life feels limited, confining, oppressive, pushing us down. Self-actualization, moving in the direction of growth and sort of realizing our full potential is moving in the opposite direction. Right. So like what are the points of pain and suffering and hardship? Let's, let's tend to those, right? Psychedelics, psilocybin in particular, works in so many levels to do that because really it's like a, just in the same way that we use

a telescope to appear more deeply into the cosmos, microscope to appear more deeply into the fabric of reality. Sillocybin and other psychedelics represent metaphorically like a lens for peering inwardly into the nature of mind, the psyche, consciousness, perhaps even on deeper levels, the soul. Sorry, I just experienced a little chop there. George, are you with me? Yeah, I'm still with you. I'm here. It kind of froze up for a second, but your voice is, your voice is flowing like a river downstream. But the picture stopped for a moment. You're very poetic.

You're very poetic, George. I love it. I think that's how we communicate more effectively, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, I mean, like, in using these tools for increasing our self-awareness, specifically of the unconscious or subconscious mind, it's no secret that almost all of these symptoms of mental illness, depression, anxiety, trauma are linked to unresolved or repressed, suppressed emotions in the unconscious mind, right? So psychedelics help these emotions,

these sometimes stuck or blocked energies to move out of the unconscious into the light of our awareness so that they can be processed, metabolized, and released, right? And the very natural outcome of that is healing and growth, right? So in this process of transformation, we're tending towards the places of pain in our lives while also like cultivating this garden of goodness, right? So it's like we're like pulling out the weeds while also like, you know, cultivating the soil, the nutrients, the sunlight, the water, tending to that garden, right? Which is every domain of our lives. So it's relationships.

It's passion, life meaning, and purpose. The creative projects are spiritual lives physically, all these different things. It works on all these different levels. And this is the movement towards this kind of transformation is on, on all of these levels. Like where are the limitations, where are the points of pain, and where are those points of goodness, right, that we can really cultivate in moving towards a sense of wholeness,

a sense of wholeness. And at the end of the day, of course, it's clear that in whatever, you know, in whatever way we're, whatever tool or modality we're using, at the end of the day, it's an inside job, right? Like, and this is like a, in literally every single wisdom, tradition, spiritual philosophy, is this, is this core teaching that we can search in the external world as long as we want, as many lifetimes as we want for the perfect set of circumstances and conditions, right relationship and job and this and that and the other, nothing. nothing will ever be enough until we are connected to true self and to the infinity this is this is that that that that deeper level of of of wisdom where we

recognize that we need to tend to all the all the factors on the sort of surface level but ultimately what we're talking about here is an inside job and hypothetically someone could be, you know, living in abject poverty and still be self-actualized. You know, it's possible. And, and of course, on the other end of the spectrum, I mean, how many people do we see in popular culture, rich and famous, but are absolutely miserable? So, again, it's this reorienting inwardly to that deeper level of, connecting, reconnecting with oneness, with spirit, with divinity in some level or the universe

or whatever, whatever word one wants to use. And it's like the wave remembering that it's part of the ocean. When the wave remembers that ultimately it's ocean and only ocean and could only ever be ocean and nothing that it ever did could make it any less ocean, then then the wave the wave can start to really feel free you know and to feel faith and trust that no matter how that wave breaks like it's all gravy we're all good it's all ocean you know jonas you've done one of the one of my favorite videos that you've done was this one on on oneness and you use the metaphor of the ocean and i was wondering if maybe you could

give the people a little bit of flavor of that video in this in this particular exchange right here maybe you can explain to them a little bit about why you did that video and then give them some of the the flavor of that video if you if you would yeah sure I'd be happy to well I mean where to begin yeah I mean you know in again like one this is fundamental it's a fundamental truth right However, we look at it from a scientific perspective, right? If we look at the history of the universe, the Big Bang Theory, tells us that all of the infinite cosmos, all the infinite diversity and multiplicity of trillions of stars, galaxies, planets, beings, creatures began as one, began as one, began as one unified, undifferentiated source energy that supposedly was a billion times smaller than a same. single atom, right? And whatever you are made of and whatever I am made of and whatever microphone and laptop and whatever is made of, it was all there. It all began as one. And quantum physics tells

us the same thing, right, that if we look on a deeper and deeper, more and more fundamental level, atomic, subatomic, into the fundamental particles that make up the fabric of space time, if we look on a deeper and deeper and deeper level, eventually the idea that bigger objects are made of smaller objects breaks down into this unified field of energy and potential. A lot of people call this the quantum field or the unified field. That is one, right? And we are all waves in that quantum field. What's interesting, what's amazing is that these are relatively recent discoveries, right? Big Bang Theory came around like in the 60s or whatever, Edwin Hubble, you know, and quantum theory is, well, it goes back a little further than that, but it's also relatively recent.

What's interesting is that mystics, shamans, sages, spiritual visionaries, all around the world, regardless of their social, cultural, religious background, universally have been teaching us about oneness for thousands of years. It's like our most advanced science has just started to catch up to what all these sages have been telling us for thousands of years. And again, we can see this truth codified in all of the world's major religions. Like Buddhism, it's taught that the Buddha nature is within, within all of us, right? All of us have the same Buddha nature. In Hinduism, it's taught that like, Atman, the soul is the same as Brahman, God, right? In Christianity, the kingdom of heaven is within, you know, in literally all of the world's religions, right?

And so this is fundamental truth. And the way that, yeah, the metaphor, the analogy that really makes sense in my mind is like waves on the surface of the ocean. Because, you know, on a human level, it seems like separateness is very real and obvious in a certain sense. It's not always easy to just feel that one. It's like, you're over there. I'm over here, right? Like separate. But on a deeper, more fundamental level, right?

That's the level in which one is can be kind of groked, like felt, you know? Because like if you look at the ocean on the surface level, it's like, yeah, there's a wave over there. There's a wave over there. And it's true. Like there are two separate. and distinct waves, you know, but if we look beneath the surface, if we go a little deeper, beyond what just is our immediate apprehension, look a little deeper. When we go beneath the surface, there's one ocean there, right?

So yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for bringing that up. I mean, I love talking about it because it's so, it's so fundamental. And it's, in a sense, well, whether or not someone is spiritual, whether someone is like an atheist and, you know, not at all interested in, you know, these ideas of soul or spirit or afterlife or anything like that, still, we have to, no matter how you slice it, like we can all agree that all is, all is one, right? And if we really internalize that, then suddenly all of these spiritual teachings, that the ego is illusory, that there's something deeper to what we are than the

human identity, all these things suddenly become like scientific, empirically true. Like, yes, this is fact, you know. Yeah, I see it too. And I, it's interesting because I can understand why some people in authority or even, some structures that govern us see the dissolution of boundaries as a real problem. You know, when we when we look at the way education is, you know, we think of schools or books and there's lots of information you can gain by listening to someone else's lived experience. But it seems that the true teachers are like a waterfall or a battered coastline or a rainstorm, you know,

And it gets us back to this idea that you were talking about oneness and the different sorts of teachings that have the same fundamental underpinnings that the true lessons that we should be learning are not something that you read from a book. There's something that's revealed to you. In a heightened state of awareness, we often see these revelations. And you can look back to the sacred texts of mystics, be it a Bible. or the Bhagavad Gita or any of these, you could read Moby Dick and get the same sort of profound insights that are happening. Herman Melville might be a prophet in my book,

but that's true. That's true, man. It's true. But there's so much beauty that can begin to be revealed to you when you're open to it. And I think that that's a unifying sort of underpinning. Would you agree with that? Definitely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And that's the process by which the, the cognitive component of that is translated into the heart component of that. Yeah, yeah. Like when, because there's a difference between like thinking it and feeling it. Yeah. The idea of oneness, yeah, it's a nice idea, beautiful, shiny concept.

What does it mean to feel, to feel that, to know it, not here, but. But like in your whole being, that's when it, that's the level of transformation too, you know. And it's experiential. Yeah. That brings me to the idea of language. You know, there's a really, sometimes I tend to ramble. So I'm trying to stay focused on this right here. But I think that when it comes to language and the idea of conceptualizing something or internalizing it versus

feeling it. I think that that is sort of, that is what's happening on a heightened state of awareness when words begin to fail. And I see this new sort of language emerging. And I'm curious to hear what you have to think about this. It seems that, you know, some of these abstract geometrical images that people see on high doses of medicine or in, an alternate state of consciousness, they seem to be a coding pattern, a sort of symbol of itself. And I know that that's,

I just want to pause it for a minute. I was going to say this again so people can just take a moment. A rare symbol is a symbol of itself. So I was going to pause for a minute. Okay. And it seems to me, like the geometric images we see in heightened states of awareness

are in fact this kind of symbol, a symbol of itself. And when you can begin to think about that, I think it begins to transform language when we begin to think of language that way. And I'm wondering, what is you, I know that that's just kind of just a nice little thing I've floated out there,

but I'm wondering if you can drill down a little bit to help me make this idea a little bit more consumable to people. Like, how do you see language transforming when we begin to understand oneness. How do you see language begin to transform now that we've had some of these higher states of awareness? How do you think language is transforming? And how might that transform us as a society?

Well, it's hard to put into words. I know. Yeah, yeah. In some ways, in some ways language becomes more and more challenging to attribute. some ways it becomes easier, easier and easier. And I see it in this, in this sense, as one internalizes on that deep experiential felt heart level, the truth of onness. Then more and more, language is not, is not as a little clumsy here, but one gets out of one's way. Yeah. And

That whole idea of being a channel, a conduit, a vessel. Where the language, the quality of it becomes inspired and from beyond somehow. Both in the, there's a new, there's a new music to the language. But the deeper quality to it is, is, the energy that's behind it. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like, yeah, yeah, because it's, it's no longer, it's no longer just being cobbled together by the vast but limited intellect of the human brain, you know, it's, it's like flowing from the infinite, potentially. And, you know, this is, this is like the deeper level of, of life,

and art and creation. So many of the most, like the creative luminaries, you know, in any field, music, literature, art, whatever, whatever. The moment of creative inspiration, a lot of times, or creative flow, a lot of times, is described as, like, it came through me, but it's not of me. or, you know, like, how, like, there's, there's, there's something along those lines, you know, it's like, um, there is really can, can be that distinct sense of like, um, life is flowing through us. And, um, I don't know.

Again, like the, the, um, the quality of, of language, uh, can, can transform in in that sense, where it's not even necessarily that the words. themselves are changing a whole lot, but the energy behind them. Like what the words can evoke or elicit, the weight that they carry is greater. It's amplified. Yeah, that's really well said. And I know that it's tough to try and describe meaning because it's so broad. But I love the way you did it.

And I wanted to challenge you on it because I think every discussion that people have, have about this, it sends out like a little ripple. You know what I mean? And while I may have heard it described a certain way or I may have received a message from you in describing that, I think it may inspire other people to think different. And they would be like, oh, you know what they could have said is this, this and this. And I think that that particular, you know, like the pebble in the pond that radiates the ripples, I think that this attempt to recreate a better form of the logos is sort of of it's contagious. It's contagious, Jonas.

And it helps people to better understand themselves and their ideas and then transmit that idea in a better, in a way that is changing. And an example I give about this is, you know, I was doing a, I'll link to this video. There's a really good video that I think it's called What is Reality? And in this video, the people were talking about a new theory of everything. And they had come up with seven different, seven different clues given to us by nature that define this new theory. And one is information. One is causality loops, non-determinism, consciousness, pixelization, E8 crystals, and the golden ratio.

I know it's kind of a lot. I just want to talk about audits encompass it in the world of information. If we think of the world around us as a world of information, a world of language in some ways, it begins to become more accessible for the individual to manipulate the landscape and the world around them. And we can see it transforming. If we know that the foundation of our theories are changing, it instantly changes the world around us. And I think that that translates into you as an individual changing your vision of yourself and then reality changes around you. For way too long, I think people have found themselves in positions where they're like, they try to change the system. They try to go into their work and they're like, I can't get this guy to figure out that what he's doing is wrong. But that's the backwards way to go around it.

You know, when you try to change everything around you, it's like you're just Sisyphus trying to push this boulder up, you know, and every day it rolls down on you. But if you begin to change yourself, all of a sudden, the, world opens up to you. And I think that's, that, that is kind of a roundabout way of me beginning to ask you about as a someone who is a psychedelic facilitator, what is it like, like you've spoken a little bit about your journey and what it's like that you have got to see on your heightened state of awareness. But what is it like to get to witness other people have transformations? Yeah, it's, um, it's incredible. It's, it's, uh, to some extent, yeah, It's challenging to like just encapsulate in in in words and language because

you know, pretty much every single day on the job, so to speak, every every every every retreat that I work, you know, I hear some iteration of the similar story, which is something along the lines of, you know, I've been in therapy for 20 years. I've tried every single SSRI antidepressant. I've tried every single benzodiazepine. Nothing has worked. You know, this is like the sense that modern psychiatry or modern medicine,

like, has failed me in working through my PTSD or my depression or my anxiety or whatever the case may be. And oftentimes it's a place of desperation that brings someone to this experience to take that leap of faith. There's a sense of what other choice do I have, you know? And to see someone like that over the span of a single, week or even a single day, I have a deeply transformative experience. Say like, I feel at peace, genuinely, for the first time in my whole life. Like, there's a quality to it that's just like, so, man, it's just right here. Just big energy right here, you know, really uplifting, inspiring, motivating, rewarding, fulfilling.

invigorating, you know. It's, yeah, that's the, that's the, that's the biggest current there. You know, there's, it's, it's oftentimes a very challenging process as well. And there's, you know, when people enter into these non-ordinary states of consciousness, uh, it's often walking side by side with someone into the fire, you know, the full emotional spectrum. And by the fire, and by the fire, mean the fire of transformation right like uh because this is what healing and growth demands of us uh again this is the hero or heroine's journey of like um i think uh carl young has has a quote that's something like um before the tree uh can reach up to the heavens its roots much must reach down into the into hell right um it's there's like there's almost like this alchemical quality to this work

where it's like all of the and again this is why i said earlier in the conversation that from from many people like suffering is our our only spiritual teacher it's a for the invisible hand of life saying come on now little little one like let's grow let's evolve um i don't know i mean that's just my that's my belief, my perspective. But there really is this like alchemical quality to psychedelic, I mean, any therapeutic modality, but it's really like concentrated in the psychedelic experience because all these processes of healing and growth and transformation are happening at light speed, a process that could be, that could take of, you know, unpacking and resolving a traumatic

experience, right? And like the anxiety that might be associated with that. It might take five, ten, fifteen years in talk therapy. It can happen in a single day, in a single day with, you know, in a safe and supportive context using psychedelic substance. I'm not, certainly it's not always like that, but it really can be. And again, there's this quality of like, by allowing the fullness of our emotional life, our emotional body into the light of our awareness, there's a moving of energy that very naturally corresponds with unburdening, with a sense of greater inner lightness, emotional freedom, less anxiety, more joy, more wellness, more inspiration, greater sense of connection, all these, all these things,

you know, so again, it's like very broad strokes here. It's just like the psychedelic experience is almost like a microcosmic, like, all of the human experience, you know, is like super concentrated, focused in the psychedelic experience. And then oftentimes opens up into this doorway, this gateway into the beyond, the trans person. You know, yeah. It's kind of like, you know, to use that wave in the ocean analogy, it's like as where our self-awareness is expanding. It's like the wave, it's moving into deeper and deeper elements of its waiveness.

and what that entails. But that ultimately, that ultimately culminates in this transpersonal or like trans wave. Like now there's no, there's no more like wave is now fully aware that it's just ocean. You know, there's no wave here. Actually, it's just ocean. And that very much can occur in the psychedelic experience in these mystical states of consciousness that, you know, in rigorous, research at Johns Hopkins and other institutions, they found that, you know, something like 70% of people rate their psychedelic experience as among the top five most meaningful experiences

of their entire lives when compared to the birth of a child, you know, getting married, things like things like this. I mean, to really like let that sink in that eating a few grams of a dried fungus can render or elicit or evoke these peak mountaintop experiences that change our life forever. I mean, this is, this is magic. Like, this is nothing short of miraculous, you know?

So to be a little part in that equation. And, you know, like, I didn't really talk much there about like the role of facilitator, which I'm happy to do so if you're curious. But to be just like a little part in that in that equation is just endlessly inspiring and fascinating. It's a constant. It really has this quality of like the more I know, the less I know, you know. It's just so, so cool.

Yeah. That's really well said. I'm glad that I asked you that question because I think you answered it beautifully and it gives people an idea. But for me, I think it, and stay with me here, but I think that there's sort of a darkness about it in a way. I'm not saying that it is dark for you or anything like that, but it can be because it's so intoxicating to get to be in the presence of the felt presence of the other, because it's so intoxicating to be part of the terror before the sacred. Like that can become very intoxicating. And I know that if you, if some people lose their way as a healer or some

people lose their way because they, they, they feel that they become the transformation. You know what I mean by that? Like, if you look at some people that catch like they call it like the holy man syndrome, you know, like, oh, well, these people are coming to me because I can change them when in fact, they're just part of the catalyst to do that. Like, what is a, have you ever felt like that darkness there that's like, wow, I'm the person doing this. And how do you protect yourself from that feeling? It's a really good question. You know, I think that in order to really serve and function in that role of any kind of transformational guide, right? requires really sincerely doing the self-work first and foremost, the work on ourselves, right?

And because like any of this, yeah, it's ultimately, it's coming from a place of wounding or ignorance or lack of self-awareness and lack of, lack of humility and, and ego ultimately, right and um to yeah yeah yeah so you know there's there's there's so many there's so many layers to that to that question and to really really like continually uh having a high enough degree of of self-awareness of of of wisdom of integrity of like a um like a really like a really like a um kind of like a ruthless, like, honesty of, ruthless honesty of, of, like, what's going on in our internal landscape, as well as, you know, to some extent, like, collaborators, like, like checks and balances in place where it could, because other times, like in many cases, people can reflect things to us

that are invisible to ourselves. We all have blind spots. We all have blind spots. And, but it's, it's really, like, it's keeping things in perspective, right? Where, in a lot of cases, I see the role of a psychedelic facilitator as like a midwife or a doula. There's a process unfolding that is way beyond me. I'm not initiating it.

I'm not controlling it in any way. Nor do I understand, claim to understand. the way in which that process is connected fundamentally to the mystery of all that is. It's all a mystery. It's all a mystery. Anyone who claims that they know that they really got this, like on that deeper level, stay away from them. Because I think truly, like, to truly know means to acknowledge that we don't know, you know, that we can't know.

And again, like from this perspective of like like like a like almost like a psychedelic midwife, my role is to support a process that's already unfolding, you know, and the power is in the process. The power is not in me. My job is to support the process that's that's underway, you know, and really like one of the core tenants of good psychedelic facilitation work with very, very few exceptions, very very few exceptions is that there is nothing that I could possibly do or say that has more healing transformative power than the experience itself.

So in a lot of ways, it's my, my job is like less is more in a lot of cases. Take a step back, you know, and really, really deeply respect the process of this individual is going, going through their own inner healing intelligence. It's such a beautiful idea that there's something in us within each one of us that knows what we need. Like, you know, the example I like to use is when I break a bone, for example, I go to the doctor, a doctor puts a cast on the arm. But the doctor is not the one who's actually doing the fixing and the mending. There's something in us on a cellular level that knows how to create the mend.

It's miraculous. Like it's incredible beyond words, beyond comprehension, right? That's the inner healing intelligence. The idea is that the same thing, that same quality applies to our psychological well-being, to our psyche, right? Me as facilitator, I'm like the cast on the arm. And to claim that I'm the one who knows and understands the miraculous infinite forces that are creating the mend on that deeper cellular level is abject. ignorance. Like, you're fundamentally just misunderstanding all of this. Like, find a new job. You know, so that's really how I see it. And I mean, one last thing I'll say about that is

really acknowledging that people who are in non-ordinary states of consciousness oftentimes are at their most open, their most suggestible, their most emotionally, raw and vulnerable state where even a word that I say as a psychedelic facilitator when someone's in a mushroom experience, there's one word can take potentially can take a person's experience in a whole different direction, right? I mean, hey, like anyone who's working in that role, I think really needs to feel the weight of that responsibility, like the ethical, imperative that we need to respect this individual on a deep, like, soul level, you know? And, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, all of that kind of blends together and comes to mind when

you ask that question. But it's, it really needs to be a continuing process. And like all of us, like, again, as like a moral, ethical, like imperative, need to continue our own self, self-work because I think there's like a very natural like expand and contract or ebb and flow and ups and downs to the process of of growth and healing and evolution you know um so yeah yeah that was really well said and I'm glad I'm glad you answered it that way I you know I I struggle with the lessons that I learn sometimes in heightened states of awareness you know it's some Sometimes you get to try on these ideas. And because there's this realization that time is a construct,

the moment you spend at heightened states of awareness can feel like days or even years sometimes. And you can really try on these ideas and become this other person for them in it. And it's important to realize the idea you're trying on is like a T-shirt. Some of them are too big. Some are too small. Some you might not like the color. And it's important, but to understand this thing you're trying on, no matter how much you like it is just something you're trying on.

That has helped me cope with the understandings or those things that are revealed to me in those heightened states of awareness. You know, and I know language fails there, but it's such an intriguing question because there is, you know, I once heard where there's fear, there's power. And it is fearful in those heightened states of awareness. And there is power in those heightened states of awareness. So I'm always curious how people deal with that relationship. And I've, you know, I've never been in a position to be a facilitator or to see firsthand someone truly having an experience that is at a particular place for that experience. And I can only imagine the responsibility, the fulfillment, and the pressure to

thoroughly create a great space for those people. So I'm always fascinated. Thanks for answering it so honest. And anybody that heard that response, that's exactly why you should go to Michael Meditation is because that response that Jonas just gave right there. I mean, that's about as good as any sort of promotional video that would ever come out.

I think it was beautiful, man. So thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah. How is it, you know, for some people who have only had a a psychedelic experience with a close group of friends

maybe recreational and some people may have only had it by themselves and you know in maybe I've had the five grams of dried mushrooms in silent darkness maybe people have had that particular journey but how do you see the the difference between and maybe you can compare and contrast the experience between an individual having their own personal experience and then

an individual having an experience with a team around them. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. Well, the difference is potentially immense, immense. But that's not to say that, you know, in the right set of circumstances and conditions, like a person can't have a similar powerful and profound transformative experience by themselves, you know, five grams, silent darkness, I certainly have at times, right? I haven't always had had people around me facilitating, although I will say like, just as a general rule of thumb and there are exceptions, I would just about always recommend having someone around, like a facilitator around, especially on higher doses. It doesn't matter.

matter how experienced anyone is as a as a psychonaut, how familiar people are with the terrain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're, you know, like in some cases, just absolutely powerless in these experiences. And in the line between sort of objective or consensus reality versus my own inner experience, my trip, can get really blurry, really fast, you know. You know, with all that said, I would say, like, if we look at sort of the three phases of the psychedelic experience, like before, the during, the after, having a team of facilitators like that, that environment of safety and unconditional support makes a tremendous difference in so many ways. I mean, beforehand, if you look at, like, preparation and if you look in, like, having really that sense of intentionality behind it. Not that there has to be like a specific list of intentions like this and this and this and this are the things that I want to experience because usually it's like, okay, maybe you'll have some of that, but you'll probably have a lot of other stuff going on. I mean, really the intentionality being intentional about how we're consuming this really helps to enrich the experience. And part of that is like entering into this space where in a sense we're leaving. sort of like the mundane world mundane world behind right the job the you know daily routine

emails and all that stuff it's like leaving all that behind we're entering into this space where we're connecting with other people with the shared vision purpose mission goals uh to really like kind of focus in right like feeling into that the the energy of that collective like that group um this is what we're here to do you know um there's something like um empowering reassuring about that. There's a sense of, like, trust and safety and that having, like, facilitators or a team there, even before the experience begins, can really help to evoke, right? Yeah.

And that's just so fundamental for allowing ourselves to really take that leap of faith of, like, okay, I'm going to let go here. I'm not going to try to steer this thing. I'm not going to try to grip tight and, like, like make this like bend this experience to my which is like you know an exercise and futility there

but we need to have the right things in place right to be able to like really let go and then as like that the kind of during phase in so many ways in so many ways just having a that warm

supportive, calm, reassuring, presence, that rock, you know, that grounding anchor to, sometimes in these experiences, we can get really far out there, you know? And as we're navigating the depths of the psyche and soul, sometimes that's a absolutely beautiful right, you know, and as we discussed, sometimes it's really hard. And in those moments where it feels challenging, to have someone there, even just to hold handle hand a hold right or or not even necessarily that like a nonverbal presence just like nonverbal communicating i'm i'm here i'm here for you and everything's okay like all your worries and your concerns about how this might not be okay you just give that to me and just just go just let this

flow right and you know so there's so many different like flavors and in variations of that there's so many different ways that having a facilitator present during the experience can really enrich. And then, of course, afterwards, the integration phase. I mean, hey, this is what it's all about. Like, this is what we come to the experience for is a real life, real world change and transformation. What does it mean to leverage the new awareness, the new insights, the new experiences,

the new sense of connection or revelation? or whatever, what does it mean to leverage that into everyday life? And that's a challenging thing. And in a lot of ways, I don't think any of us can do it alone. Like, I think we need to feel connected. I think we need to feel supported throughout that process because it's a lot, you know? And even just having someone to talk to, like, about that, like an empathetic ear, not that that person has to say the right words or that that person has to tell you,

like this is the answer this is what you do this is how you integrate right but just someone to listen to to discuss um is is is is deeply uh it's uplifting it's it's a uh source of energy you know through through the process so it works on many different levels you know and and ultimately i think like in a general sense the uh the feeling or sense of disconnect factors in on some level to almost every flavor of mental health issue, mental ailment, feeling disconnected, disconnected from others, disconnected from nature, from the world, from ourselves, from life meaning and purpose, you know, in so many ways, connection is healing, is fundamental to healing. So to have a group of people around you where it's like, I'm not alone in this thing.

you know like i'm going through this and yeah it's hard but so is that person and like we can support each other we can share each other on and it's like really really really helpful yeah it does sound helpful and sometimes with shared sacrifice and shared experience can come shared goals and i i find that particularly beautiful and integration is such a magical thing i But I have some questions on integration. And these are just questions that I think of as I begin to talk to more people. And you begin to see schools kind of authenticating people's methodologies and stuff like that. And it seems to me that in the world of integration, that there's a form of priming that probably happens.

And I'm not saying it happens at one particularly school, but it does seem that when you talk about connections, integration is a form of reconnections. And so, you know, is there a, I know there's not one school of thought, but, you know, and it seems to me that maybe the best way for integration is a sort of gestalt or a sort of Socratic messaging where you're just reflecting things back to people because it's, it's imperative what happens in that reconnecting phase, you know? and while it can, like, I can go in and reprogram somebody. I know how to do that. But at what point in time am I taking away from their lived experience by me making the connections for them? And isn't that sort of, you know, doesn't that sort of make integration a slippery slope? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's another great question. You know, I think that we're, we're. working as an, you know, to some extent, it is really like circumstantially dependent, right? And but I, but I think there's the same general flavor here where, you know, what I was, what I was referencing about being a psychedelic midwife or a doula. Yeah. There's a process happening here and it's, it's not my job or my role to try to control or direct that process. in fact it's unethical to do so in most cases in most it's disrespectful to the natural process

that's that's unfolding here and i've seen this happen you know at times like um you know i've had people upset with me in the past like i've had to learn this i've had people upset with me like don't interpret my experience for me yeah you know um and that's that's true that's legitimate you know there are some this is why i said to some extent circumstantially dependent because sometimes a person will express a desire like for uh like it would be helpful to hear like how you how what is your interpretation or analysis of this you know but sometimes it just feel so deeply personal like don't touch that you know yeah so it's it's again it's like this this um really dropping in and being present and connected and attenuated to where is this person at

and what is serving them rather than what is serving me like I want to see like I'm smart and intelligent and I'm a good integration coach because I know exactly what this means and that was an ego dissolution and that's what the stop stop yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and I mean hey that's that's to some extent like it's coming from a place of good intention of like I want to be helpful you know yeah but I think I think you're right that a a lot of, a lot of integration. My goal is an integration coach,

I want to help an individual unpack an experience and process an experience on their, on their own terms in their own way, you know, and meet them, meet them where they're at in, in that process. And, you know, a lot of times it can be helpful or useful just to check in and say,

like, is it a, like, it's, in mind like a certain a certain thought or like a similar experience that i that i've had in the past like would it feel helpful if i if i shared that with you yeah maybe they'll say yes maybe they'll say no you know um but but but but you're right like it's it's it's really important for i think really like um the biggest part of integration in a sense is to just very simply sit with it you know sit with the sit with the experience and let things let things marinate you know let things really

sink in sink in more and more deeply and um Again, like in that process of just like just being present with like my internal felt experience, like I just had this big psychedelic experience. Where is all that sitting? How is that feeling like right here and now? Just feeling into that. There is like something within us that knows what we need and knows how to keep the ball moving along. Right. But being heard, being seen, being engaged.

being in connection with others. And in some cases, having frameworks of interpretation can really help a person to unpack. Yeah. When I do share feedback like that, I'm really, these days, I'm really careful because I have learned this lesson. You know, I'm careful to ask. And I'm also careful to, like, say, like, if I am sharing like a framework of interpretation, I'll say something along the lines of, like, this is necessarily true in your case. It's just an idea to play with.

It's like a, it's a framework. It's an idea to play with. And to whatever extent it resonates and feels true with you, great. To whatever extent it doesn't, throw it in the trash, you know? Yeah. Like I, my own fears that I project on the space it's developing is that, like, it seems odd to me. Not because it's not predictable, but it seems odd to me because it seems counterpresentable. productive to begin issuing licenses for integration coaches.

Like, you know, I think that the way in which you begun your career as someone who volunteered in this particular experiment is probably the best way to label yourself an integration coach. You know, I, it seems to me too that, you know, maybe it's circumstantial in that integration may be good for someone right after a trip. Might it be better a month after a trip? Might it be better once the person has fully begun to build a container of their own before they start sharing, which is in that container with you?

You know, it's interesting to me. I don't have the answers, man. I don't know, but these are just things that, like, I don't hear people talking about that I'm curious about. What do you think? Well, yeah. And what's coming to mind is, as you just said that is like, yeah, I think that's spot on.

and being an integration coach isn't about having the answers. Yeah, at all. It's about asking the right questions, I think. Well put. Yeah. So the bulk of integration coaching should be listening, not talking.

It isn't it interesting that you get certified by going to a place and talking about it? I don't know, man. I'm not putting it down to any way you're from. We need it. And I think I'm for it all. I'm for everybody learning. I'm for people teaching. I'm for all of it.

And I love all of it. But I just ask questions because I think that questions lead us to a position where things can get better. So I don't, I hope anybody listening to this doesn't think I'm putting anything down because I'm not. I'm just, I'm just asking some questions. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me. Jonas, we're coming up on this hour and a half mark, man.

I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this conversation. And I feel like we've just begun to scratch the surface. Yeah. Yeah. It's really fun. And I hope maybe we can come back and reconnect or maybe do it more often. Because this is, I really admire the candor and the ability and the honesty and the vulnerability with which you answered these questions. And I love that there was this. You know, George, like, that's such a sign of a good answer is like, this person is going to think

about it for a minute. You know, it's like, I love it. So thank you very much for that. That's really fun for me. And I hope everybody listening to this really got to thoroughly enjoy. as much as I did and I hope you didn't. And before I let you go, though, maybe you can speak to where people can find you. What do you have coming up and what you're excited about? Sure, absolutely. You know, thanks for asking. I just want to say, you know, right back at you.

It was fun as fun as the right word that comes to mind as well. I really, really enjoyed, really enjoyed connecting with you. And, man, your energy is contagious and just so, so warm and good. like really, really, I really mean that. I really mean that. And yeah, just much respect to you. I really appreciate what you're doing and the way you're doing it, you know, truly. Yeah, I have a YouTube channel.

It's called Cosmic Consciousness with Jonas for anyone who wants to check me out there. I also do have a psychedelic integration and support company. It's called Intervision Psychedelics. at that link, Intervision Psychedelics.com. You can also reach out and schedule a schedule of free session with me that way as well. So I would love to, love to connect with anyone interested.

And yeah, it's always such a joy and a pleasure to have these conversations and these discussions, you know. Yeah. And you've been at it for quite a long time already. You know, I, point out to everybody listening that Jonas has spent a lot of time finding a model that suits him

and that gels with him and the people around him. And I would highly encourage people to go and check out his YouTube channel, check out the links below because more than anything, he's giving away a lot of free information that can help you make good decisions in your life, whether you choose to go the route of speaking with him or just maybe consuming some of the content that he put out there. I do it. I really enjoy it. And I've learned a lot from it. So I'm thankful for that. And ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us. Hang on one second. Just I want to talk to you for a moment after this. But sure, sure. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I hope you have a beautiful day, afternoon, and evening.

And I hope you take some time to reimagine yourself as the best possible version of yourself and your relationships. I love you guys. Aloha.