TrueLife - Joseph Sassoon - “The Sassoons” Rise & Fall of a Family

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://www.amazon.com/Sassoons-Global-Merchants-Making-Empire-ebook/dp/B09Q839Q44A spectacular generational saga of the making (and undoing) of a family dynasty: the riveting untold story of the gilded Jewish Bagdadi Sassoons, who built a vast empire through global finance and trade—cotton, opium, shipping, banking—that reached across three continents and ultimately changed the destinies of nations. With full access to rare family photographs and archives.  They were one of the richest families in the world for two hundred years, from the 19th century to the 20th, and were known as ‘the Rothschilds of the East.’ JOSEPH SASSOON is Professor of History and Political Economy at Georgetown's Center for Contemporary Arab Studies and holds the al-Sabah Chair in Politics and Political Economy of the Arab World. He is also a Senior Associate Member at St Antony’s College, Oxford. His research interests include political economy, economic history, Iraq, Iraqi refugees, and authoritarianism. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen, here we are

Back at the True Life podcast With an amazing individual Who has an amazing story And he's done a lot of hard work To get to that story Professor Joseph Sassoon, how are you? Welcome to the True Life podcast. Thank you very much. I'm doing well and thanks for having me. Well, it's a real pleasure. You've put together quite a story. And while it is your story,

it's the story of a family. It's the story of a dynasty. And it's an amazing book. I'm curious as to how it came about. Well, it's actually, I was never interested in, writing the history. I got contacted by someone also named Joseph Sassoon who happened to be living in Western Scotland, very beautiful place. And, you know, I responded to him and then we chatted on the phone. And then that summer I was in England, so I went and visited him. And he began to tell me stories about his mother, his grandparents, showing me pictures, and have to say, got me interested. And as I was in England, I went to the archives, checked the archives there, and one thing led to another, and then found an incredible trove of documents at the National Library in Jerusalem.

Later on I went to India to China to trace the family. And that's how it came about. It's fascinating. I like in the beginning of the book too, how I think you may have led on the story about your lovely wife encouraging you to follow up with the man on the phone with the same name as you. And I think it's always important that we give respect where respect is due. and our wives probably are a huge part of us. Yes, I told her after three days, you know, it was a letter.

There was no email. There was no phone, which meant I have to write a whole letter, find an envelope. And I didn't feel like it. And she said, but that's really not nice. It's very rude. The man wrote you a letter, took his time. You should answer him. Yeah.

It's just like we probably both got better than we deserve when it comes to our wives. So thank you to our wives. We love you. And thank you for making us better men. So one part interested me in the beginning of the story. With the name like Sassoon, like you had to have known on some level that the dynasty that were the Baghdadi Jewish family, you had to know you were related in some level coming up. Like how did it, was there like a disconnect there? Well, I mean, I grew up and I tell the story again in the book that my father wanted always to tell me about the family glory.

And I was totally uninterested. And in fact, I really wanted to irritate him. And as a 12-year-old, I put my fingers in my ears and run away, which did the trick and upset him every time I did this. And I really, years went by and I never really was interested until this letter arrived. I mean, it's absolutely unbelievable how life changes, you know, because of one letter. And I am convinced to this day that had this man not written this letter, you know, I might have read here or there, but there was nothing to, to, to get me sucked into this long-term project. Yeah, it's fascinating the way in which life reaches out to us.

And I'm a big fan of foreshadowing. And I think what you said in the beginning of this little blurb right here was that you wanted to irritate your father. You didn't want to listen to him. And in a weird sort of way, we see that later on in the line with the Sassoons. Yes, very much so. Everyone wanted to irritate someone. It runs in the family.

And I don't care which family you're a part of. No matter who we are as a family, like that is inside of us right there. Yes. Well, they've made some incredible contributions to the family of Western globalization. And I know we have a short amount of time. But as we saw them move from the Middle East

into the heart of Europe, is there something that was unique to that family that brought them into the heart of Europe? I mean, I think their story is really the story of many refugee families. Fled with nothing, determined to succeed, determined and committed to work very hard to educate their children. I don't think from that point of view it's a unique story. In this country, there are hundreds, if not thousands of these examples and in other places. I think the other thing you'll learn, you have to be at the right place at the right time.

But even then I argue, you know, if you and I were in Bombay, in India, in the mid-19th century, why did you become so wealthy? And I just was okay, successful, when we both witnessed the same thing. In essence, we had the same opportunities. And that really goes to the character of the founder. He was very determined. I think there are things that you look back almost 200 years later and realize, wow. He realized at a very early stage that even today is very applicable, that it's all about information, information, information about the markets, information about the global economy, and information about your competitors.

And that made him spread his network, first in Asia, then the Middle East, then Europe. And he gained an incredible advantage. He was the first of all the merchant families to send a son in the 1850s to London. And why is that important? Because information was so slow. It's not like today every second. and you get a great thing. Message took on average between one city to another three to four weeks,

assuming it arrived and the ship was not wrecked. So it's a long time, but even that extra advantage. So the sun was there when the civil war in America erupted. Cotton prices quadruple. The world of commodity trading was in a friend. You have the first two years of the war. Prices more than quadruple. Every trader in the world wants to trade cotton.

But then other suppliers entered Brazil, Egypt. India expanded its production and the price collapsed. By the end of the Civil War, 80% of merchants in India filed bankruptcy because they got stuck with a huge amount of supply of cotton. So yes, someone else could have been, the trick is when to be in the first two years and take all the advantages and when to walk away and just sit on the sidelines and not take the risk. Yeah, and that is a huge.

I would argue that's almost instinct because there's so much there. you have to have the right instinct to be like, this is the time. How do you know? I can feel it. Right? That's, and that's something that I don't think you can teach. It's feeling, but also information.

Learning about the news, what's happening. The fact that there was a son in London who was closer to the war, closer to American and British journalists at the time, closer to the British government, who had better information than, people in India about what's going on in the Civil War, all added to his instinct. Instinct alone doesn't work if it's not accompanied by good information. Right. It reminds me of, oh, God, I hope I don't butcher this.

It reminds me of the time when the Rothschilds were the first to know about the battle. I think it was a Waterloo and they came back and they were to tell them. Yes. Right. It's fascinating to think about. What do you think? it is, or when do you think the allure of wealth began to penetrate the family? I think the minute the founder died and his eldest son decided in the early 1870s to move to London. Now, the move to London, he explained it, look, London is the only capital for the

financial world at the time. There was no new. York as it exists today. It was really London. And he thought as the new boss, he should be there. But there was another element. You know, the life of British aristocracy reports and letters by his younger brothers telling him about the wonderful life in England and its countryside and the parties with the royalty. It made a dent. I mean, you could. see sometimes in his answers, there is a little bit of jealousy, why the heck am I sitting in hot, steaming Bombay, and you guys are having fun. Shouldn't I be the one having fun? And, you know, he was knighted. He changed his name, and from 1872, he became known as Sir Albert.

And then more honors were bestowed on him. And he felt, okay, I can be part of this aristocracy. And of course, one thing leads to another. If you are a part of the upper class, you have to have the right houses, the right estates, the similar hobbies as others. And so one thing leads to another. If you're not in the horse racing or hunting and everyone is doing it, so you get involved. But what does that mean?

More money spent. More money spent. and less time on work. He continued to work very hard, but his siblings and the third generation, it went downhill very quickly. Yeah, for everybody listening to this, the book is called The Sassoons,

and it's by Joseph Sassoon. It came out relatively recently, and I recommend everybody pick it up. It's a great book, and for those that are watching, you can see the book behind him. It's a great book. Go pick it up and check it.

But as we continue on this conversation, it just underscores the old adage of short sleeves to short sleeves and three generations. Even though it went longer than generations, what you alluded to was almost a, the cancer of monetary values that comes in and seems to erode the hard work that so many founding members of families have laid for us. Intergenerational wealth is not a simple thing. You know, first generation works always very hard, very determined. Sometimes doesn't have the money, starts at humble beginnings. Then comes the second generation, and the first generation wants to spread that wealth, which is natural. You want your children to live in better conditions that you.

you live. You want your children to go to better schools. You want your children to have more luxury and travel. The third generation gets it as a must, you know, because by then it's part of the game. You're born into a wealthy family. You're born into large estates and fancy houses. So it becomes very difficult to get that a drive of hunger. of determination. And then comes the family clashes, which is normal since

mankind. Brothers fight, siblings fight, cousins fight. There is a lot at risk, and that is human nature again. So combine those rifts

with this generational intergenerational wealth and very, very, very few family manages to hold and continue for six or seven generations. Yeah, one, on a related note about the book, not only does it go into detail about a really dynamic family, but one thing that I got out of it so far is it's not just the tale of one dynamic family. It's the tale of family. And you can find your family in this book. Maybe your family hasn't risen to the level that they have, but I guarantee you when you read the book,

you're going to see some similar rifts. You're going to see some similar ideas that have happened between you and your mom or you and your dad or you and your brother. And I want to commend you on finding a way to translate the story of family so that everybody can be part of it. You don't see that too often. Often when people write biographies or when they write about their family, it tends to stay in the lane of particularly there. I think you did a good job bridging that gap and allowing everyone to take something out of it. I say in the book,

this is not a family story or history, but it's a history of a family. Right. And there is a huge difference between the two. You're absolutely right. You know, the clashes, the eagerness for success, the movement, the adventure spirit,

this is not just one family. It's across the board. Yeah. And it's, it's, oh, let me ask you this question as we're talking about families. Do you see the family unit as an organism with a life cycle? To a certain extent when it comes to money, yes. I think, as I said, it's really, really difficult. You know, sometimes also the first generation, not only is very,

very successful and determined, but it has a huge ego where it doesn't believe that anyone else, including your own children, can be as smart and hardworking. So you keep second-guessing them while the first generation is alive, but then they're preventing them from developing on their own, taking risk, learning from their mistakes. David Sasuna, actually, actually managed to do that. The problem was he did not foresee that what wealth can do by the third generation. Yeah, and how could you? I mean, even today with the ideas we have, how can you?

You can't, you can't guarantee anything. You can't guarantee. The other thing is, which was in the family, it's, there are two kinds of talent. You need a talent, but you need a business talent. So in the family, there was talent, but they were not interested in business. So you have a very famous World War I poet that is studied in Britain today called Siegfried Sassoon. The first woman who was a news editor of a major national newspaper was a Sassoon, but neither of them were interested in the business. So again, you are the first generation.

you can't tell the third generation, oh, I want three out of my four children to be interested in business. Unfortunately, it doesn't work and you can't control. That's such a great point. And I, it just makes me, I think it lends credence to families. Like, I've always wondered, what must it be like to know the history

of your great grandfather in detail? What must it be like to go on a vacation or to have a family reused? Union where you can sit with two or three generations and you can hear the different perspectives of the first generation, the second and the third. And as a grandchild, you could actually see the change is happening there. I mean, some families do that. There are families, I understand in the U.S. or in Germany, which are four or five generations.

They meet in a conference once a year. But then I hear that there are so many frictions and, and, you know, you know, you know, nerves are frying all the time. It is wonderful, however. You know, a couple of places, there is still a lot of memories. You can get in any taxi driver in Mumbai, which has 22 million people living in India in that city alone. And you just say Sasu, and there is the Sassoon Library,

which is in the heart of the city. There is the Sassoon docks. There is the Sassoon Hospital. There are no Sassoons, but the name kept. And it is really, there is a nostalgia. You go to Shanghai, and one of the tallest buildings until the 1980s was a Sassoon building. It's still today a beautiful hotel overlooking the bay. There is definitely some kind of pride.

in that. But it's also fascinating in the sense to know how things move over 150, 180 years. Certain things they're similar. Others are

totally different. Yeah. It brings me back to the first part of your book when only a few people left Baghdad to go into Europe and others were left behind. That must have been an interesting depending on which side you were on.

Yeah, I am the... So when David Sassoon left with his father because of a conflict with the governor, who was a very corrupt governor, his siblings stayed behind. I am the descendant of one of those siblings. You know, it's really amazing. That's the other difference.

It was hard for me to understand that in 1830 or 1840 or 1840 or 1850, people traveled so much, not only for business, but for pleasure. The fact that you're sitting somewhere with your four children who were all very young, and you say, okay, let's go to India because I heard there are opportunities. Now, today, think about it, you would do a thousand research on the internet. you go to read books, you ask people. There was no one to talk.

I mean, just people in the port saying, yeah, India has a lot of opportunities. The other thing which really surprised, and then they continue to travel, the other thing that really took me by surprise, how young these men were, you know, he sent his second son who was barely 17 with a command saying, go to China, explore the opportunities, and come back. Can you imagine it today? Sending a 17-year-old doesn't speak a word of the local language, doesn't know anyone, doesn't have a relative.

And more than that, they continued these young people to travel also for leisure. You know, there was one guy who went to Japan because they fell in love with the gardens there and the mountains, another one, went over. all the way to Norway, to climb a mountain. I mean, and you think, wow, we think we're the globalized jet set people, but they were doing it. There were no jet, and the trips were hard and hazardous, but they still did it. You talk about the difference between, I think there's two kinds of education.

And as we talk about being an educator and experience, how different is the world of someone going out and getting a, own experience versus someone going to school and learning from someone who knew a guy who might have had a friend whose dad did something. Huge difference. And today, wherever you're going with your phone at 17 or 18 or 20 and your mom is watching where you are and checking on it. Yeah, it's interesting.

And we laugh about it. But in some ways, it's kind of sad because imagine being 17 or 16 in 16. some of these cases where kids are off and they're learning and they have real consequences, not only for what they do, but on top of the consequences are real expectations from the family to succeed. It's interesting to see that character there. And you had to make decisions as a teenager. You had to make decisions on the spot. You have to calculate the risk. There was no one to call mom or dad, hey, what should I do? Or I am in trouble.

You're in trouble. You get out of the trouble. And you're making decisions. And it's very, very different. Yeah. It's odd to see this world of prolonged adolescence that seems to be plaguing us today. You know, I know I was probably guilty of it. And I try to make notes to not do that.

Let me shift gears here a little bit and try to just push back. I think that that sometimes makes for a great conversation. So do you think that maybe there's a little bit of cult of remembrance that happens when you're looking back on this particular family? I mean, it's really interesting. The fact that so many things, you can't put everything in the book. One of the most fascinating thing, the book came out a few months ago in Britain and outside the U.S. in India, in China.

It came out two weeks ago in the state. Suddenly, people who are connected to the Sassoons are popping up. And I get asked, you know, I'm looking for my great-grandmother. Can you help me find her? I think she was connected to the Sassoon. It's really wonderful. But it definitely stories like this. And what you said about readers don't have to be specifically interested in the Sassoon.

per se. But just to learn about how family lives went to, because they might have been different experiences, but the trends and the upheavals and the fights and the love and the losses are all the same. Yeah, that's well put. And, you know, I've always found it interesting to me. And maybe it's because I look for these little idiosyncrasies, or maybe they're actually true.

I prefer to believe the latter. However, you know, it seems that it's a perfect book about families in the time we're in today and the geopolitical environment we're in. It almost seems like your book is a call to families to say, hey, take a look around. Look at your mom. Look at your dad. Look at your grandparents.

Stop your bickering with your silly brother or your silly sister. I think that there's some lessons in there to be had. Yeah, I mean, and I mention it. You know, I told you the story I run away with, And then when I was writing the book and my father passed away more than two decades ago, I thought, oh, man, if I had only three minutes with him, if I only could ask him a question. And, you know, it's funny sometimes I go to a bookshop to sign the books and kids come. And they say, what should, you know, and I say, sometimes be interested in your family history. learn about it, learn what your grandfather before they go away,

learn about the family, because these things don't come back. And I am sure I missed a lot because I never talked to him. I never heard the stories that did not get into the archives. You know, the archives is the only part, but the other side of the history goes away. Yeah, and some of that is the real juice of the history, the emotions behind it, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I could feel you did a good job at expressing your concern and your reservations about not talking to your dad. I could feel it when you wrote it in there like, gosh, if I just listened to him one time, I'd have such a better book right now.

You know, it comes through in the way you're right. You did a good job. You're absolutely right. So what about Victor, Sasan? Sir Victor Sassoon and his brilliance. You write about that in the book. Well, he's a very flamboyant, a colorful character. You know, he was one of the most fanatic photographers.

He was among a dozen of people around the world that not only carried a camera every time, wherever he went. But I found that whenever Eastman Kodak came up with a new version of a camera, guess what? He was one of the first to receive it because they realized, wow, it's like having your first iPhone and you're the only one walking with it. And he took amazing pictures. He took a lot of models, but he took a lot of like the invasion of Shanghai by the Japanese forces. And these are really incredible images. By the time he got to China and Shanghai,

in particular in the 1920s, commodity trading died after World War I. And he shifted to real estate. And he was brilliant. He realized after talking to engineers and architects that the land in Shanghai is very similar to Manhattan. So he brought in a firm from Manhattan that built a skyscraper to build one in China, in Shanghai. And so he built the first skyscraper. But he had a huge eagle the size of the skyscraper.

On the top of the roof, and I went and saw it, if you fly above it, there are the letters VS to this day, Victor Sissou. And I think it's the only building in the world but has initials on it. You know, a little bit of the arrogance

got him in the end. He misread the political leaves, the economic leaves that were taking place in Asia. He didn't expect the Japanese to attack the U.S. He didn't believe is going to have. happen. After the war, he continued to believe that even if the communist took over China, they're going to be open for business with Western firms, all proved wrong.

And when you make three major decisions like this wrong, the result was a calamity, all buildings, 14 of them. including some skyscrapers were nationalized with zero compensation. So a huge amount of money was lost in 1949. Yeah, I think I've read it somewhere, heard it said, that you can make a mistake, you can recover from a mistake, but the third mistake is the one that drowns you, or something along those lines.

I mean, you know, keep making mistakes. Sometimes you're recovered, but you can't just keep doing it. and big decisions. Right. Yeah. It's interesting to think about the different perspectives you have. But you know what also intrigues me is what one can learn from a gigantic mistake. When someone makes a mistake, one mistake that causes so much calamity,

be it in your family or in the surrounding environment, you can learn a lot from that experience that someone who never had those resources could ever learn. Yeah, I mean, look, we all made mistakes. I'm sure David Sussu made a lot of mistakes, but the question is, what is the size of the mistake? Right. What is the risk you're taking? And how quickly are you willing to admit that you made a miscalation?

That's a great point. And to reverse it and to change it. In his case, he kept going forward, I mean, the writing was on the wall that it's going to be over, that the communist will take over, but he kept going and say, no, maybe. Now, whether it was wishful thinking, whether

it was delusional, I don't know, but the end result was not good. Okay, so if we can dig into this idea, maybe if we can dig into the idea of families attaining wealth and then making a critical

decision, it seems that certain generations, sometimes this cancer of wealth can be surrounding yourself with people that are yes men and you begin to believe, hey, this is a great idea, George, or yeah, George, you're so smart. And then all of a sudden, you no longer have that critical people around you to say, hey, wait a minute, that's a stupid idea. Or you know what? Maybe you're wrong here. You think that that is something that begins to creep into the world of wealthy families at some point in time? I think it creeps into anyone who has power. It doesn't matter whether

you're wealthy, whether you're in politics, whether you're in corporate world, in any, any position. It's very interesting because in 1949 after the nationalization, he still had a lot of good connection within Hong Kong and agencies of business. And his right-hand man who happened to be a second cousin, whom he trusted, and relied on all the years from the 1920s onward, told him, look, we can rebuild in Hong Kong. You know, Hong Kong is not going to be part of China. It's going to take off because it will be the hub for the whole area. I think he was beaten so much that he said,

no, let's sell everything. His cousin said to him, but we're going to sell a 10, 15 cents to the dollar. It just does not make any sense. Cousin resigned because Victor would not hear him. He did sell the assets for 10, 15 cents, and headed to the Bahamas, and of course, lost the incredible growth that Hong Kong economy had from 1949 until 1999, the word, but quickly. growth anywhere else in the world for half a century. Yeah, it's almost, it's, unless you read the book, and once again, ladies and gentlemen,

the book is called the Sassoons. It's a phenomenal book. You should check it out. It's, it's almost difficult to understand the magnitude of what happened or the decisions that were made unless you get the history that you wrote in the beginning there. Right. And it's, it's fascinating to think about. It is a global history. It's a history. It's a history. of colonialism. It's a history of Europe. It's a history of Asia. It's a history of nationalism. I think it has enough history, but it also has a lot of drama for a lot of people who are just enjoy a good drama story. Right. And there's even for those of us who enjoy the drug trade, there's a bit of opium stories in there. A lot. It's interesting. There's so many

parallels. Like if you look at, you know, you could almost draw a parallel to the East India company and opium as maybe some of the Sackler family and some of the, the opium derivatives that are happening in our country today, you know, and that's what I love about history. That's what I love about even the book you wrote, I think shows a lot of parallels of maybe what happened in the past and what can happen in the future. And that's why it's a beautiful book to read. Thank you. Thank you very much. Right. What, if I think for a moment, I'm guessing that, well, you know what, why should I guess? Who do you think you identify most with in the family?

When you were writing about it, did you find a certain person in the family that you identified most with? The person that really took me by surprise, and I had the book about around six main characters, is actually a florist suit. There is a whole chapter. She was the only woman who was a global CEO at the end of the 19th century. Her story is truly remarkable. A woman who learned new six languages, who can recite from Shakespeare, anything you want, started going to the office with her husband to learn the business. When the husband died, she announced that she is going to.

to take over against family tradition, against Indian tradition, against Asian tradition, against all tradition. In fact, there were no global CEO, a woman CEO running a global business in Europe or the US at the time. There were a lot of matriarchs,

but they were not running day to day a global business. She really was a fascinating character. She just had in her story everything, this determination, the cleverness, yet the conspiracies by the men in the family to push her out because they couldn't stand her success. They couldn't fathom how they, between them all the time, correspondent would say, how can a widow with three children run a global business? instead of saying wow that's amazing that the widow is running a global business with such success they are angry that a widow is running a successful business

yeah it's fascinating to to highlight that and I think you did a great job I have a daughter and when I hear you talk about that it makes me really proud because I can see the world in which we live in, in the potential for women who are sometimes smarter than all the men around them and have a different way of looking at it, maybe because of their brothers or maybe not, but it's a beautiful thing to think about. I'm wondering, what is it that you want people to take away from this book when they read it? I like them to think of a family that, as I said, you know, started as a refugee, built an incredible history,

gave a lot to philanthropy throughout the whole 150 years, whether in India, whether in China, whether it's in Britain, wherever they were. It's a drama. And like any other drama that you watch on television or you read, it has its ups, its downs,

it's good characters, less good characters, and I hope also it has some fun parts. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of fun in it. I think we've gotten away from great literature. And when you read a story like this, it kind of rings back to the ideas of Shakespeare. It's this idea of the stage, all the world's a stage. And I like the way you wrote the book,

because you can see yourself in that play. You can see the story. You can see the majestic parts of it. And you can see the conspiracies and the people conspiring against one another on there. I think it turned out really well. Thank you. Right. Let me see.

You know, does, do you think that the downfall of the family presents the opportunity for a new branch of the family to arise? And I was thinking about the book. Maybe that's one thing that may come of the book. Maybe there's a new branch of the Sassoon family because of the book. What do you think? Time will tell. I mean, it's hard to know. I don't know.

You know, there might be someone who's 16-year-old somewhere, a boy or girl in the middle of nowhere reading this book and thinking, I will resurrect the tradition. Could be. Yeah. That's interesting to think about. I'm curious if you have anything. after writing the book, sometimes authors wish that they could have changed something in the book. Is there anything that you would go back now

and maybe make a tweak to or something? I mean, I could have added a lot of stories. I could have added a lot of vignettes. But, you know, you're dealing with editors who are tough, are good, but tough. So, you know, we had our share of battles and arguments over the whole period. there is never such a thing as a perfect book.

There really is. And my attitude to any book that I read and definitely a book I write, you know, it's a story, read it, enjoy it, and learn from it. Right. Were there any, you know, one thing I really miss about books today

is there used to be these books called letters, like letters of warpole, or these authors would write letters or people would collect letters from the family and publish those. Have you thought about maybe having a book of letters from particular parts of the family? Well, I quoted a lot of these letters.

I really do. I sometimes verbatim, sometimes not verbatim, sometimes I summarized it. They wrote huge amount. You know, I tell my students, if anyone complain about their emails and how much. These people wrote, you know,

when you have so many siblings, you couldn't do like today C, C, C, C, C, C, seven people, that you had to rewrite seven copies. I mean, sure, when they got very wealthy, they hired people to ride

the copies. But I think they spent an hour and an hour and a half every morning and every night dealing with correspondents, because that was the essence of the business. And you have to keep updating all members of the family who are spread. You don't want to leave the guy in Hong Kong and not knowing and you don't want the guy in London not knowing and you don't want the guy in Liverpool and you don't want

the guy in the Middle East not to know. So it was a huge, huge task and they did it. Right. You would mention that while writing the book, you did quite a bit of traveling to the different places that you write about and visiting different areas. Was there a particular place that you traveled to that really struck you to your core? Yeah, there was. I mean, in India, they had a house in the country, in the mountains, very high in the mountains because of the weather. And I was kept researching, and I found that actually it still exists.

Then I found to my shock that it's a little boutique hotel. And I contacted the owner and he told me it's full because it has only four bedrooms, but tell me next time. And I ended up going with my wife and a couple of friends and spent three nights. And nothing has changed in this place, definitely not the scenery. So when you open the door and you see the valley and you see the mountains, that's the same view that they sow. And to me, that really moved me.

Also, the rooms haven't changed, and there are still some old pictures of the family hanging there. It really was different from other places that underwent a huge renovation, changes, internal changes. This place definitely, the garden was the same garden. When they sit in the garden, we were sitting in the garden. And yes, it brought a lot of things into real life. Ah, that's beautiful to think about it.

Do you think that maybe that's the same thing with the family now, like the same way that house remained the same with the same views? Do you think there's people in your family today that still maybe have some of the same views as, say, Victor or David? I don't know. I don't think so. Things have changed. people have different interests.

You know, there are curious about it, but life moves on. I mean, that's the beauty of life also. You know, every 20, 30 years, the train of life takes us to another station. Yeah, and it would be boring if it stayed in the same spot, right? Exactly. Joseph, I want to be mindful of your time. I'm really thankful that I got to spend some time with you today. And the book, ladies and gentlemen, is called The Sassoons.

I highly recommend you pick it up and check it out. It's really fun. It's a drama. It's a conspiracy. It's the story of not only Joseph's family, professor's family, but your family. And you can find yourself in there's almost like a choose your adventure because you can choose to be whichever character you want to be in there. And I find that's a fun thing to do. If you were going to sum it up or tell people one last thing about it, Dr. Sassum, what would it be?

Well, just before that, there is also an audio. So for many of your audience who drive a lot, don't have the time to read, it's a wonderful thing to hear by a professional actor reading it. I think that it's really a family saga that takes place over 200 years, ups and downs, wonderful occasions, marriages, divorces, huge celebration.

huge parties. It has everything. And I hope you will enjoy reading or listening to it. That's a great point. And it's available on Audible. Is that correct? Correct. And where can people,

where else can people buy it? They could probably buy it at Amazon. Amazon is the easiest and probably the cheapest way to get it quickly to you. Nice. Do you sell it on your website as well? No, I don't. Okay. Fair enough.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I had an absolute blast talking here and getting to meet you and read the book. I hope everyone listening to the podcast or watching the video will feel the same. Do you have anything coming up as far as speaking gigs or where can people find you? And maybe what are you excited about? Yeah, I've been going to a lot of book tours. I'm heading tomorrow to Chicago for a couple of talks. You know, I was in Boston Literary Festival last weekend.

doing in D.C. A couple of events in New York. At some point, we'll get to California. Nothing to Hawaii, unfortunately. Well, if you ever find yourself out here, I would love to get my coffee signed and buy you a cup of coffee. So come on.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Fantastic. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time on the True Life podcast today, and we will see you soon. Thank you for your time.

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