TrueLife - Julio Vincent Gambuto - Big Brother is Watching

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️Julio Vincent Gambuto is a visionary thinker and an unflinching voice in the self-help and societal transformation space. His groundbreaking book, “Please Unsubscribe, Thanks!: How to Take Back Our Time, Attention, and Purpose in a World Designed to Bury Us in Bullshit”, challenges the fabric of modern life with razor-sharp insight and disarming humor. Beneath its humor lies a profound critique of the relentless pressures of contemporary life, calling readers to escape the cycles of automated behaviors, performative relationships, and empty values that drain true fulfillment.Born out of the societal shifts triggered by the pandemic, “Please Unsubscribe, Thanks!” is both a mirror and a blueprint. It reflects a world at the mercy of constant noise and distraction but offers a map to reclaim personal agency. Drawing from his diverse career as a filmmaker, writer, and creative force behind essays that have captivated global audiences, Julio’s work is a clarion call to reassess what we truly value. His viral essay series, “Prepare for the Ultimate Gaslighting,” set the tone for his unapologetic stance against the push to return to ‘normal’—a normal that, for many, never really served them.A graduate of Harvard University and the USC School of Cinematic Arts, Julio brings a cinematic flair to his writing, crafting narratives that are as compelling as they are transformative. His explorations invite readers not just to consume ideas but to embody a new way of living—one that champions freedom from the societal scripts that have long dictated our lives.In a world buried under the weight of digital demands, toxic productivity, and false priorities, Julio Vincent Gambuto is a guide for those daring enough to ask: What if we truly unsubscribed? His work is not just about breaking free from the suffocating pressures of modern life, but about rediscovering what it means to live with purpose, joy, and authentic connection.https://www.juliovincent.com/https://forge.medium.com/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0 One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back.

I have with me today, a show that I think everyone is going to love. With me today is Julio Vincent Gambuto. He is a visionary thinker and the unflinching voice in the self-help and societal transformation space. His groundbreaking book, Please unsubscribe, thanks.

How to Take Back Our Time, Attention, and Purpose in a world designed to bury us and bullshit. It challenges the first. fabric of modern life with razor, sharp insight, and disarming humor. However, beneath its humor is a profound critique of the relentless pressures of contemporary life, calling readers to escape the cycles of automated behaviors, performative relationships, and empty values that drain true fulfillment. Born out of the societal shifts triggered by the pandemic, please unsubscribe thanks is both a mirror and a blueprint. It reflects a world at the mercy of constant noise

and distraction, but offers a map to reclaim personal agency. Drawing from his diverse career as a filmmaker, writer, and creative force behind essays that have captivated global audience, Julia's work is a clarion call to reassess what we truly value. His viral essay series prepare for the ultimate gaslighting set the tone for his unapologetic stance against the push to return to normal, a normal that, for many, never really served them. A graduate of Harvard University,

and the USC School of Cinematic Arts, Giulio brings a cinematic flair to his writing, crafting narratives that are as compelling as they are transformative. His explorations invite readers not just to consume ideas, but to embody a new way of living, one that champions freedom from the societal scripts that have long and dictated our lives. Julia, thank you for being here today, my friend. How are you?

Thanks for having me. That's the best description I've heard yet, so thanks, man. Yeah, I'm so stunned, man. Things are looking up, man. You know, before we got started, it was like I was saying, I really feel that so many people's lives change during this pandemic. And, you know, maybe that's a good place to start. I'm sure you've been asked this question a million times on a million podcasts. But let's start with the foundation, man. Like, is that what happened to you?

Did the COVID fundamentally change the way in which you see the world? Fundamentally. I mean, it just shifted. I always say it's like it was a tectonic change. Like the plates beneath my life just boom, shifted. And, you know, I personally haven't been the same. I think many of us haven't been the same in the best possible way, right? I think life before the pandemic was go, go, go, rush, rush,

treadmill, treadmill, treadmill, you know, sort of being held up by this really, really, really, strong commitment to like, I have to be the best. I have to be, you know, the wealthiest. I have to be the prettiest. I have to be the skinniest. I have to, whatever that is for everybody. And for me, it was like, I've got to be successful. I've got to be successful. I've got to be successful. And I think the pandemic just rocked that to the core. And, you know, it's taken a long time. And I'm sort of still in the process of really making the kinds of changes that I call for in the book. But it's really been a journey of like, hey, what are you doing here? How many years you have left on this planet?

You really want to spend it on this treadmill or do you want to spend it loving, living, you know, and being a part of the world in a good way? So, yeah, it really rocked me. I love it. You know, there's no better spokesperson for something than someone who's making those changes in their own life. And I think that that is something that's different that you speak to in your book. Instead of being, you know, harassed by these infinite distractions that are constantly screaming your name, you know, you have an opportunity to wake up and do it. Maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the sacrifices you've made since the whole COVID rendition. Sure.

I mean, you know, for the most part, and it's so funny that you use the word sacrifice because I sort of, you know, I grew up Roman Catholic and so we used that word all the time. Right. And but in this period, like it didn't feel like sacrifice actually. It has felt so good to let go of so much of that kind of constant pressure, whether it's digitally on my screen in front of me, whether it's, you know, how quickly I think I need to respond to an email, whether it's how, you know, how quickly I think I need to respond to an email, whether it's how, you know, how, how much pressure I feel to meet up with certain people, to maintain rather transactional relationships sometimes to sort of walk around and carry myself with a sense of like, we're all in this together, as opposed to it's about me, what can I get out of this?

How can I take, take, take, take, take? And that's way easier said than done, but I think being aware of it is the first step, And that's really kind of why I wrote the book was to kind of put pen to paper about that awareness. Because the awareness is what shifted during the pandemic. And that's what I want myself and as many people as possible to hold on to is the awareness that it doesn't have to be this way. You don't have to go back to the madness of it all. And that you're allowed to enjoy life, right? And you can still be a contributing member of society, totally engaged.

in the world, but you can do it from a position of contentment rather than envy, resentment, pressure, craziness, which is certainly how I lived a lot of my, you know, 20s and 30s. Yeah, I echo that so much. You know, I didn't realize until, you know, through COVID, where I started taking a lot of time off, how much I really hated who I was doing, the things I was doing. It was all this pressure on me. And I realized my relationships with my wife and my daughter were, you know, it was shameful. It was shameful.

Like I spent no time home. And I would come home and I'd be in a bad mood. And I would look at my paycheck and be like, I'm crushing. I'm crushing this. But in reality, it was like an empty husk, you know, and when you start realizing, like, holy crap, like what am I doing? Is this really necessary? It blows my mind.

And it was one of the first times that I really began to understand the illusion of choice, which brings me to this idea of consumer culture here that you get into some of these topics in your book. And so, you know, like consumer culture thrives on the illusion of choice. And, you know, in your opinion, do we ever truly make our own decisions or are we subconsciously selecting from pre-c curated options designed to keep us within societal norms? You know, it's a great question because it points at this idea of personal responsibility that I think is really important. You know, I've gotten a lot of reader mail from people on email that have said,

hey, you take a long time in the book to get to this idea of personal responsibility. You make it seem like, you know, these forces, whether it's, you know, big media, big tech, big brands, big parties, like they're in control. we're just subservient and, you know, this idea of personal responsibility is got to be more significant in your thought process. And I think it's an important, look, it's an important criticism. But I think what's important about it is that, is that, yes, we are all responsible. That's why I wrote the book is because we are all responsible for the choices that we make every day and that we've got to understand our power to make those choices and make them

differently. Look, when the world shut down, it happened really fast and we saw immediately what was important to us as a society. What was important to us individually? I'm not saying that, you know, you don't have sort of prescribed options in front of you that sometimes you have to choose from, whether it be serial or a life path or, you know, whatever that is. I think those, it's impossible for those not to be constructed by society in some sort of way, right? My partner is from the former Yugoslavia. I grew up in New York, New York City. Those contexts are totally different. And therefore, the choices that they afford us, each have been totally different, right? But within that, I think it's important to be making choices. And, you know, we vote with our money.

We speak up with our money. Our money is so important. Where we put our dollars is so important. And the idea that somehow, you know, there was this great sketch on Saturday Night Live this weekend about Amazon. It was on the weekend update. And it was like an Amazon woman who works at Amazon who's completely overworked and she's completely being exploited. And she's just like wired up because she hasn't slept in days. And at the end, you know, they sort of explain basically how she's being abused for lack of a better word.

And then at the end, you know, she asks Michael Che, like, are you going to stop shopping on Amazon? And he's like, I don't know about that. So we all know that these things are happening. We all know that where our money goes, affects the world. We all know that like putting money into some of these companies and growing their coffers and making them richer and making them more. powerful is not always serving us but sometimes it's hard to make that decision because we've been convinced that convenience is important and speed is important and you know how um the idea that i can get anything at my house at the you know at the drop of a hat is important um so i want us to question

those ideas right because it's not really about am i subscribed to amazon or am i not subscribe to Amazon it's much deeper than that it's like how can we start to interrogate and question the belief underneath which says if I get it at my door in 24 hours I feel like a king but if I don't I feel like shit right like that's the problem right that's where we have to start to question how we behave it starts sort of down there you know yeah I love that it's it's it's It's so true. And it makes me realize on some level that the revolution is bottom up.

Each individual coming to terms with living a life that they want to live instead of, you know, maybe being, maybe being can. It is about personal choice. You should, you should make good choices every day. However, momentum seems to direct us. And for so many people who have been on this treadmill for so long, it's different. to see the maybe the choices of poor patterns that you're the patterns of poor choice that you've been making on some level. And if you have kids and they're in school and you're living paycheck to paycheck, that pattern is something like that momentum is really hard to stop. You know, it's difficult. That's really important, George, right? This is an entire conversation from a really privileged white guy, right? Totally. Totally. Like I've gone to the best schools. It's like, you know, it. But, but. But if it doesn't start in our circles, we are the ones who have the most access to power. We are the ones who have the most access to the agents of change, to be the agents of change.

And so the less powerful you get in a society, the less access folks have to really be making those choices for themselves. And so I'm not saying that people are powerless. I'm just saying that it gets harder and harder and harder to step out of the momentum. The sort of lower you are on the socioeconomic scale, right? And the higher you are on that scale, even though, you know, the costs are high and sometimes even the financial costs are high, it is easier to step out of that momentum and to feel like you have nothing to lose and to feel like you have nothing to lose and to feel like you. you can speak up and speak out. And if, to be frank, if privileged white people don't do it, like it gets harder and harder and harder and harder for other people to do it,

I don't want to say that we are responsible for everyone's happiness. That sounds crazy. I'm saying that like we have a position in the society where we're really kind of morally and ethically required to speak up. step out of the momentum, you know. Yeah. It's, it takes courage to speak truth to power, you know. And I, I think that so many people on so many levels realize that they're kind of getting

burned. They just don't, they, it takes a lot of courage to step back in me. Like, holy, I am getting wrecked here. Like, what am I doing? It reminds me of the old George Carlin, you know, a bit about like, the last thing, some of the people and positions of authority want is for you to sit around the kitchen table and express to all your family members how bad you're getting screwed you're going to want that we don't need that you know and like i come i'm a i'm a in case you haven't figured it out right like a pretty far leftist

and my my dad is a trumper right and so but but we all sit at the kitchen table and at some point I try to make him realize, like, this is happening to both of us. Like, you know, like, this is not really you guys on the left, or I mean, you guys on the right, us on the left. It's really more about, like, who's on top and who's on bottom. And the ability for us to actually realize that we have so much more in common than we think. You know, my dad was a union guy. And I grew up, I grew up making picket signs with him.

So I have a really strong belief in the power of unions because they really are the only way to amalgamate power among working people. So I think that I'm going to get it wrong, forgive me, but the statistic is something like in the 1940s and 50s union membership, like one in three people in the country. were union members and now it's down to like one in 11 or something like that and i don't quote me on those numbers but but it's something very significant the difference is very significant like our generation really doesn't understand how many people were unionized back in the day um anyway to your point about speaking truth to power uh i think it's an important uh exercise i love it you're talking to a union guy i was i was escorted out of the facility that i worked in for speaking truth to power You know, and it's, it's amazing to see how similar we are.

Like, it doesn't, in my opinion, the left and right, people are so similar. Like, we have so much in common. Like, we want our kids to go to great schools. We want our families to live a life worth living. We don't want to see our kids. We want to see our families, man. We want a better community to be part of that we feel as if we're contributing to. We want to be part of the solution instead of a conversation.

instead of a cog and a wheel. And I really think, much like you said, you sitting at the table with your dad, regardless of who you're voting for, I hope you vote for a better life for all of us. Like, you see that coming together, that big picture, right? Yeah. It's so important. And I think to your point, too, we want to, we want to participate, right? Yes.

I think there's a real dignity in participation in the economy. I just wrote this piece for a medium actually a few weeks ago about having been in my partner's hometown and just being able to afford a jet ski ride with our nephews, a boat ride with our nephews, which there, because of the difference in the economy, is a very affordable activity. Here would cost me $500, $600 to like take my nephews out on a boat for a few hours, right? But here it's a huge luxury, and there it isn't. And so I think there's a real power in, sorry, I think that what we really want is the dignity of participating in the economy. We want to be able to take our kids to a baseball game and not have it cost $300. We want to go out to the movies.

We want to go to restaurants. We want to go on vacations. Those might seem like privileged things, but they were such a part part of the fabric of the middle class for so long and those things are disappearing. And I think that that's what people are angry about. They're angry. You know, they're not saying, I need three Teslas in the driveway, right? They're saying, I want to be able to send my kid to college without it breaking the bank. I want to be able to, you know, do and participate in sports without the worry that I'm going to break my hip and I'm not going to have the right insurance and I'm

going to get a bill for a million dollars, right? It's just the dignity of taking your family out to dinner and being a part of the economy that we really want, at least that I want, and I think a lot of people do, you know. Yeah, those are great points. You know, it's interesting, too, when we look at COVID or we look at the way we're targeted by certain types of, you know, sellers or companies or you know we're targeted all day long by different advertising firms and I'm curious to get your thoughts on on this targeting on some levels you know I'll never forget when my dad came to visit me he he had he was telling me George listen you got to get you got to get a there's there's a big case of um what's he talking about there's a big case of um something going around you got to get

this thing and I was like what where did he hear that if I never heard that But then I went into the room where he was and he just had like Fox News on blast and he was repeating a commercial verbatim to me. I remember thinking like, oh, wow, this is targeted to this particular audience. Okay, what's what's targeted towards me? Like, isn't it interesting the level of influence that goes into targeting certain demographics of people? And I think that's where we, most people are unaware of how sophisticated those systems really are. So George, I remember being an intern at People Magazine in the year 1999. And I was working specifically for people in Español, which was the Spanish language version of people.

And I will never forget being in the conference room where they were trying to figure out what to put up on the website. And they decided that they were going to scan a postcard. You know those postcards that just fall out of magazines or used to just fall out of magazines and say, you know, subscribe for a dollar or whatever? And they were going to scan it and put that image up and you could call the toll-free number if you went to the website and saw that image. We've come a long way since 1999, right? And I think in 25 years, I'm not sure people understand how far we've actually come, right? That's where we started, where nobody knew what to do with the web and knew what to do with the internet.

And then we moved to a place where you could communicate on the internet and I could reach you with a message. And that was revolutionary, right? But then we moved to a place where the biggest businesses in the country and the biggest banks in the country figured out how to put the marketplace into that equation. So remember, Facebook didn't have ads. Facebook didn't say, click here to join Weight Watchers because you just saw a picture of your really skinny friend from high school

and she's still skinny and you're not, right? That was not part of the original plan, right? But it has evolved in this way. And we are to a point now in 2024, 2025, where advertisers can select demographic information about you, not just are you married, are you not, what's your household income, but like what you believe in, what your relationship is to FOMO, what your relationship is to class and to socioeconomics, meaning, you know, how do you view high-end luxury brands? Are you kind of susceptible to those messages or not?

Every time we click on the internet, we're giving more and more information to these systems. to evaluate how they can then reach us better. So it's no joke that like, you know, I googled colon cancer and then suddenly getting ads for colonoscopies or ads for it, right? That's basic, right? The targeting systems are that much more savvy and that much more sophisticated. And, you know, if you talk to business people, they'll just say, well, that helps their businesses be efficient.

And that helps their businesses to grow and to reach their market and to make customers happy. I don't think it's done from an malicious perspective necessarily. I don't think it's done in order to purposefully abuse or exploit. But what it does do is it gives your father that ad for that specific product. And he starts to believe that the world is just made up. up of that product and that worldview. And then I only get ads for the way that I feel about the world. And then our worldviews start to go further and further and further apart to the point

that, you know, when my dad and I sit down at the table, he just says the opposite of what I think now. It's like, it's like I say Kamala, you know, did X and he says Kamala did Y. And I say Trump did X. and he says Trump did why. And it's like, you just said the opposite of what I said. We're just watching news and information in a complete bubble. And the idea of the bubble is not new, right?

But I do think that it's important for us to realize that, you know, these systems do get more and more and more sophisticated. And if you add AI into it, you're getting even more sophisticated. Yeah, it's really well said. And it's interesting that we think, in this example, I use my dad as a consumer of information from a particular site, and he becomes something. And we do, you spoke about the sophistication of targeting mechanisms from big corporations. But if we can just peel back that onion one more layer, what about the doctor? Like, that guy's also being targeted by specific individuals to promote certain things.

You know, like, it goes pretty high up the food chain when you start looking at the way we're all consumers. regardless of your profession. And if it seems to me the truth becomes really relative. And like that, can we even move forward when nothing is true enough or when things are only true enough? It is the question of the day, right? It really is. I could not give you a satisfying answer because I think it is the question on most people's minds.

where do we go from here? We are past the point of a post-truth society. We are in completely uncharted territory. We are at the point where, you know, we can have completely different experiences. You know, there's this great book that I talk about in my book called Winning the Story Wars. And it really is,

and, you know, the author talks really about whoever controls the storytelling controls the future. And that could not be more true than right now because the storytelling apparatus has kind of fractured. And everyone's able to tell whatever story they want and present a view of reality that is uniquely theirs and attract. huge followings online. And there's plenty to say about sort of the value of that. You sort of eliminate the gatekeepers, you eliminate this sort of concept of the elite who's controlling information.

But what you do is you sort of open it up to anybody now to be able to put anything out into the information ecosystem and to have people believe it and follow it. I mean, I was looking at a report yesterday about this idea of the ABC whistleblower that has blown up online in certain circles. It was one tweet from an anonymous account on Twitter that has since disappeared, apparently. And this thing has been picked up and picked up and picked up. And now J.D. Vance is talking about it and Trump is talking about it and all sorts of people are talking about it. That happens on both sides of the equation, right?

is not just on the right, it happens across the ecosystem that this piece of information, right, which back in the day would probably have been vetted three or four times before it made its way into the media just makes its way. And I think what that calls on us to do, George, is to just become more savvy, become more aware, become more learned and intelligent about how these things work so that we can call out bullshit faster and that we become much more aware and can point at things and say, what's the source of that? You know, where is that evidence and data actually coming from? And we've got to be able to do that on a much more, like a quicker basis and a much stronger, you know, from a much stronger perspective, probably in ways that we

just haven't done it before. Yeah. I'm curious to get your thoughts on. It seems to me like that's exactly what's happening with the younger generation. I had my niece and nephew over yesterday and they're just scrolling through stuff, but it's so fast. Like the very hint of a commercial is like beat it, beat it, beat it. Like they're not even, they're so fine-tuned to bullshit like that they're not paying attention to. It's like, nope, nope, nope. On some level, do you think that what's maybe happening is sort of like attention evolution in real time. Like, are we somehow becoming more aware of the relationship between imagery,

linguistics, and feeling? I got, I'm going to send that question. I got to turn off my camera for just a moment. So carry that and I'll be right back with you. But I can hear everything. I just need to shut this down for a technical issue. Go ahead. Thank you so much.

To answer your question, you know, I am actively studying it myself with my nieces and nephews, right? I'm not a social researcher. I'm not a scientist. But anecdotally, I have, I watch my nieces and nephews and I want to understand sort of how this works for them, what they're taking away from it, what they find interesting, what they want to click on, what they think is bullshit and what is not. And to your point, I think that they are aware and that that evolution is happening in real time, that they are. are aware that there's a lot of nonsense on there, right? But what I've noticed is that they will scroll through the nonsense, but then they'll get to the thing that they are really looking for.

So, for example, my niece will then stop on a Sephora ad. And she and her cohort of 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds, are obsessed with makeup from Sephora. I think what they're not yet savvy about is that that is a intentional ad campaign, right? That they have been sort of hooked into this entire information bubble about makeup and cosmetics and appearance and Sephora to the point that my niece asks for Christmas for a her own makeup refrigerator in her room. So there's, there's, yes, I think that there is a learning happening on the fly in the moment they are learning to sort of skip past the BS to get to the thing that they're

looking for. But I'm not entirely sure yet that they're savvy enough, at least from the perspective of my world that I'm seeing. I don't know that they're savvy enough yet to realize like, oh, Sephora has hooked me and all of my friends and all of their friends. And we are a generation of painted 12-year-olds because we've sort of, you know, bit the bait. So I think that's the kind of savviness that we ought to be teaching our young people, is, hey, have you questioned why you're getting so many Sephora ads? Have you questioned where that makeup comes from, how it's made, whether or not you need it in your life,

whether or not you can be pretty without it. All of those things, I think, are still an important part of the conversation, for sure. Yeah, it's well said. I can't help but think about Marshall McLuhan. The medium is the message. You know, and as I want to believe, and I think this harkens back to your quote about, Hey, can these guys in the middle? Can these white privilege guys do something more?

Because if they can't do it, like on some level, who has the resources to do it? But it seems to me that building community and becoming real-life mentors and models for the next generation will be much more powerful than the imagery that's on TV. I'm hopeful that what we're going to see is the majority of advertisement start looking a lot like cartoons,

not physically cartoons, but the people will know the difference on some level, like, okay, this is the man, this is the woman, this is the friend in the community that's doing something. Wow, look at them. They're a real perfect. And I guess that kind of brings us back to the idea of authenticity. And you're a filmmaker. You have an incredible knowledge about how people perceive information and you do a great job of helping people see the world differently. But maybe we can maybe we could shift gears and talk about authenticity. Might that be something that that change? changes the worldview of people. I mean, I think the short answer is yes, and it has to be. I think it just has to be a part of our future, right? We have to, I love the idea of mentorship and kinds of community bonds,

those kinds of interpersonal bonds, really being all that much more important in the future for the reason you're saying, right, is so that I as a young person can sort of look at what I'm being fed on my screen and then look at what I'm seeing in the real world and identify something in the real world that I would prefer to engage in. And I think that's so important. I think the more empathetic we become, the more we have an ability to speak to our experience

as humans and what's going on for us and what's happening in our lives, I think those are just tools that our generation, you know, we've learned in our lives, but I'm not sure we understand how important that they will be to going forward and to modeling a certain humanity for our young people. It's so important. I mean, we have athletes in my family, which is very strange because I was not an athlete in the least bit. And a lot of people always expect me who was like the nerd and, you know, the young gay boy and the, performer, the artist, right? Like, they always expect me to sort of like, I don't know,

turn my nose at the fact that my nephews are athletes or something, or be disinterested, I think, not even turn my nose, but be disinterested. And I'm really interested. And the reason is that they're getting a human experience. They're getting a human experience that's different than perhaps mine was as a child, but they're understanding dedication, they're understanding teamwork, they're understanding having to show up, right? They're understanding what it means to celebrate with people. They're understanding what it means to be disappointed with people. They're understanding relationships to their coaches that might be different than their relationship to their fathers or to their mothers or to their uncles or to their aunts. So any of those experiences that we can encourage our

young people to be a part of are so important because it gets them into the community and it gets them that sense of mentorship and it gets them this not just off the screen and off their phones but it just gets them into like the social fabric of the society you know which is not to be taken for granted anymore yeah sometimes i'm accused of being more polliana than cassandra but i'm thankful i'm really thankful to get to see i feel yeah i guess right what you kind of have to be like you kind of have to be because I, and I hope more people are. I work a lot. I'm very fortunate. I talk to a lot of people in the psychedelic community and the startup community. And in my, in my, and in your book, I see echoes of this as well. And in the movies and in going to festivals like

you do. And like going out and putting your best foot forward to help people see a better world. Like I kind of see us on the cost of like a new 60s on some level. When you look at it, the way in which, you know, there's all this talk about AI getting rid of jobs and there's all these people maybe no longer, no longer really participating at the level they did. There seems to be this generational divide. I can't help but see these echoes of a new movement happening. And like, that's time for celebration for me. That's returning to community. That's when the absurdity becomes so crazy. Like, okay, okay, let's rally up here and start figuring things out. Are you, do you see that same sort of resilience building and something big about to start happening?

I want to believe that it's, I want to believe that that's aligned with the political movements that are happening. Okay. But I've started to believe that our politics has been so, our politics have been so infected that I'm not sure that it's aligned. Like, I'd love to believe that there are political leaders that can usher this forth. I don't know. I haven't sort of crystallized that yet for myself, right? But I do think it's happening socially. And I think that what we're pointing at as generation X, sorry, Generation Z and they're

this, they're that, they're that. That's what, you know, parents said about their kids in the 60s, too, right? So that, they are finding a new way to define community and a new way to define sexuality. a new way to define identity. It doesn't look like we think it should look like, but I think we would be foolish not to think that it is something that is developing, right? They're doing it with phones. They're doing it across digital networks.

They're using technology differently because we simply didn't have it back in the day. But does it serve them or not serve them? You know, I make the point in the book that like, you've got to get out into the streets no matter what, even if you have organized digitally and you have sort of gained momentum digitally, at some point, you've got to make yourself known in the street. But if you think through that, the reason that you would get out into the street, at least for a large portion of the 20th century, is that you wanted media attention. Like the reason you would go out is that you wanted the news cameras to focus on you so that you could be a top story on the news and people could understand what your message was. But if those messages are being communicated through the tech anyway, what is the value of getting out into the street? You know, every time I answer a question, I have three more that come to my brain. But it's, but it's, to your point, I think.

that there is some sort of movement happening. It's just not something we recognize to be similar to the ones that we've known in the past. Yeah, it's well said. When you think of popular movements, I think of iconic photos of dogs biting people or just these incredible photos that say a million words in one photo. And after hearing your answer to that question,

There just, it seems to be like recycling. And what I go ahead. I think you, I don't mean to interrupt, but I think you just answered it, right? Which is that I think you just helped me synthesize it as well. It's the biting of the dog. It's the biting of the dog, right? The biting of the dog. That's so good.

Yes. No, but the biting of the dog is the physical moment of conflict and of conflict. Right. Between sides. And so I guess the larger question then becomes, how important is it to how important is it to have physical confrontation. I won't say conflict because that assumes I advocate for violence, which I don't. But like what is the physical confrontation look like? There will never be a physical confrontation on digital. There will never be a physical confrontation if you are a

screen away. So what is the power or significance of being in the street so that there is a physical conflict evidence to people. I guess that's the answer, right? Or one of them, which is that it's important for people to see the physical confrontation in some way, the biting of the dog, right? Yeah, that's awesome, man. That's a catching title. I'm now comfortable with you on your podcast.

I love it. Thank you for being comfortable on the podcast. It's true. It's the felt presence of the other. when you're in the midst of other people, you become part of that situation, unlike sitting far away from somebody. It's that real felt presence of the other that has the momentum to change things, I think. Well, I always think through these things in terms of the gay rights movement. I mean, as a gay man, it's hard for me not to, but that's the lens that I see a lot of this through.

And I think to like pride parades that I've been to where there are people actively picketing, right and actively protesting and they are carrying signs that say god awful things in the name of jesus but but they're right there sort of um wanting their message to be out there and wanting their perspective known um and i'm just trying to think if i've ever sort of witnessed a moment where people actually sort of are able to come together um and i think ultimately it's probably not happening in the street where people are like oh i saw your sign so I'm going to hug you now, right? But it's, but it's a momentum that's built, right?

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm it's, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just thinking out, but, but no, it's, it's awesome. I'm glad you, you, you are. makes me, sometimes I think it's what we're witnessing right now, like this incredible polarity and this extremeness is the unrealized dreams of the death of the boomer class. On some level, like, you know, is what we're seeing out like a fourth turning? Is it like, hey, here's all these people that may have come to the end of the mortality experience and they are waking up going, holy crap, you know what?

I failed to live a life worth living. My kids don't like me. I have a little bit of money in the bank. I thought, you know, commerce has told me forever that I'm going to live out these last years is going to be awesome. I'm in the hospital. I have cancer. You know, my life is not as fulfilling as I was told.

And you're seeing this like death throes of a generation. Do you think that plays a factor in the polarity and the chaos that we're seeing? Dude, I love you. This is great. I take someone to no one. Okay. You know, is it? Unrealized Dreams of the Boomer Class. That's great.

Yeah, I hesitate to give an answer because I don't want to sound like I'm giving the answer, right? It's like, yeah, I mean, I think part of it is that, right? It's like you're sort of witnessing a generation of people who did stuff, who were shut down, who were then forced to sort of make sure that they went into corporate America and made some money. now have made them money, now are fighting over the house and who gets it and struggling to pay for senior care and are wondering, was it all worth it? I can't speak for them and it would be foolish me to try to, but I definitely see it from my own perspective. Again, just because I'm comfortable here right now on your podcast, but I'm coming off of the year of chemo. I'm coming off of the year of

canceled. I have been battling colon cancer since last January, so less than a year. And it's been horrible. And I think understanding how our healthcare system works from the inside now, understanding how cancer works from the inside, understanding the threat that one feels to their life, when you get in bed at night with your partner or without them and wonder how long you have left. I have been incredibly lucky that the prognosis is good, but for so many people, that is not the case. I have been incredibly lucky that my insurance has covered everything, and I've been well taken care of for so many people that's not the case. So what I'm trying to communicate is ultimately when your life is threatened, you realize that this concept that you're going to live to 90 and somehow like it's all going to be perfect is a complete illusion, right? It is the idea that somehow, you know, life is about my 401K is nonsense.

And it doesn't mean that money is not important. And it doesn't mean that you can't have, it doesn't mean that the more money you have, the more freedom you have or the more ability you have to experience things. But I think we have convinced ourselves that it's the only thing that matters in this country. and I think that that could not be further from the truth. So when you talk about a life worth living and a life full of meaning, what I hear is like there's three or five things I really want to do in this world and I've only done one or two of them.

So let's get going because the idea that I have 15 more years is an illusion. Jaloo, thank you for being candid. I love you, man. And I'm sending all my light and love your way to be healthy and happy. And I know all everyone listening to is, like, I, it's, I think we need more of that. Like, you know, I was speaking with a death dula the other day who echoed so much of what you're talking about. And I think on some level, what you just did right here and what we can do more of is sort of this right of passage. Like, you know, when I spoke to this death dula, I was like, what are people saying?

Like you were sitting with people who know like, hey, I'm moving on. And what are they talking about? She goes, well, George, I'll tell you what they're not talking about. They're not talking about going to Costco. They're not talking about buying a Tesla. That doesn't matter. They're saying things like, I wish I was a better husband. I wish I was a better mother.

I wish I was a better individual. I wish I had better relationships. And like, like, that is the sort of learning experience that I want everyone in my audience to understand is like you are here. And I can thoroughly understand what it's like to not have health insurance. I can thoroughly understand what it's like to not know how you're going to make it next month. I get it. And that is a lot of anxiety.

But guess what? Can you embrace the idea of uncertainty for a day? Can you do it for two days? Because once you begin coming uncomfortable with that idea of uncertainty, whoa, aren't the flowers brighter? Wow, do you smell the crisp air out there? Are those ducks? What kind of bird is that over? over there, you know, my wife smiles, she has 25 different smiles. Look at that, you know.

Can you help us understand your relationship with uncertainty? Like, how did you embrace that? Oh my gosh. You spoke a little bit about it, but maybe you can help people. Oh my gosh. I mean, it's all completely related to everything we talked about with respect to the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think this concept of certainty was so a part of my DNA before the pandemic, right? I think it was a part of all of our DNA. right we especially as americans sort of believe that the world is a certain place the world is a safe place the world is a solid place um at least on our shores and that uh whatever it is that we want we will get uh and and there's so much arrogance to that perspective right um but it is how we have been

sort of bred and grown and taught that the world is ours for the taking. And I think that there is just that what the pandemic did was rock, I'll speak from my perspective, was rock my life so much and so hard that I don't know that I'll ever believe again that in the uncertainty in the way that I did before, right? meaning that like all the things that I sort of imagine my life will be full of are not guaranteed, right? And so there's an entitlement to certainty, there's an arrogance to certainty, there's a real lack of, there's a selfishness to certainty. Like certainty sort of overlaps with so many sort of not very, not very attractive or, you know, traits. And I think when you kind of realize that none of it, you're not entitled to any of it.

None of it's guaranteed to come to you. You could die tomorrow and the world would just go on. People would mourn you and then they would get back to their life. That's a hard nut to crack and a really hard moment to come to. but if there are experiences in your life that show you that, I think what you then are freed of a little bit is, at least one would hope. You're freed a little bit of the arrogance, the entitlement,

the selfishness, whatever that might be. Hopefully you are, because then you can go forward and start to think about things a little bit differently. You know, Oliver Bergman has a great book called 4,000 weeks. and Oliver just by happenstance has become a friend and has been a great supporter of my book. But Oliver's book, 4,000 weeks, I mean, he numbers them, right? He's like, you've got if you live, he says, if you live till 80, if you live till 80, you get 4,000 weeks on this planet. What do you want to do with it?

How do you want to show up? Who do you want to be in the world? And for some people, that means I want to go to Antarctica. But for other people, it means I want better relationships with my kids. And I want better relationships with the people around me. And, you know, to your point earlier about sort of what you were missing out on, my brother-in-law used to commute before the pandemic an hour and 45 minutes every day for work. That's like, you know, two, four, five, about 20 hours a week, never went to a lacrosse game.

never went to a soccer game, wasn't at dinner with his family. It was just sort of what was normal and what we all considered to be normal. And after the pandemic, he works from home and he's like, you know, volunteering for the soccer team and the football team. And he's like, I'm not going back, man. Like, I'm not, you will have to drag me back to Manhattan five days a week because there's no way I'm going to do that again. I've been awakened for, you know, to use a,

A little bit of a woo-woo word, right? I've been awakened to the fact that that's not, that's not what I want to talk about on my deathbed, right? That's not the position I want to be in on my deathbed. I don't want to look out and say, my sons hate me because I was never at a sports game, right? I want to look at them and go, oh, my God, I remember the winnings, you know,

the winning shot of that championship game and I was with you, you know? Right. Yeah, that's what I remember I stood up and I spilled my soda all over you because I was so excited when that happened. You know what I mean? Like that's what you want. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And again, you could listen to this conversation and say, you know, it's two privileged guys talking about this, right? But I think that's probably why we need the economic changes that we need. Right. It's why we need our system to be structured differently so that people don't have to choose between the life moments that will give them the fondest memories and the, you know, and then I have to be, you know, working double time because I don't have the right insurance or I don't have the right, you know, I don't have enough money to afford the soccer uniform. You know, why do we stand for a system that makes us choose between affording life and having to work hard in order to afford it? And then the actual things that make life worth living. It's not always that black and white, and I realize that. But I think our system very often forces us into these terrible choices.

And we want to making them because we love our kids and we want to buy the sock. uniform, right? And we want to go work double time in order to make sure that they can go to the dentist and get braces, right? But that doesn't always afford us the memory making, right, or the real good stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, it takes, we've used the word sacrifice or privilege, but it takes giving up things in order for people to have, you know, it's the biting of the dog. Like, you have to give up this perceived idea of what you think is special. And you know what?

Maybe you made the wrong choice. It's very possible. Very possible. Look, I made the wrong choice. But it's only in letting go of these ideas, these preconceived notions, this idea of security, this idea of certainty, this naive idea of certainty. that's been given to us. And it's only in that letting go, though,

that you can really begin to experience what it means to have a meaningful life. And I guess there's a strange paradox here that, like, you know, there's all these, the propaganda or the messaging that comes to us, it tells us on one hand to be distracted all the time. We're distracted. We're distracted. On the other hand, it's like fear the change. You know, like, I'm kind of birdwalking here, but this idea of awareness, like, is it something that people, more people like your brother-in-law are waking up to?

Like, it's so glaring once you see it. You can't unsee it, right? Like, it's like, oh, I'm aware of that now. I don't know. What do you think? I don't know that more people are seeing it. I'd like to think that they are. I think the, I think the drive to go back to.

normal was so intense. I think the the need to go back to normal was so intense. The, you know, the pandemic went on for so long. And the reason I keep bringing up the pandemic is I think it was the most, it was the, it was the, it was the, it gave us the most opportunity, right? It gave us the most opportunity to, to be awakened, if you will, to see that for what it was. And so I think a lot of experiences can teach you that. And I think a lot of moments in life can illuminate that for you. And I keep joking that like, I didn't need cancer. I already had the pandemic. Yeah. My eyes were open. I didn't need to open them again. Like, you know, like. Yeah. But I think a lot of experiences can do that. But the pandemic was one that was particularly intense for a lot of people.

And it was collective, right? It was something that we all went through together. And so, You know, it's one thing for me to say, oh, my cancer has taught me X, Y, and Z. And then my friend says, oh, you know, that's nice that it taught you that, right? We didn't go through it together. But to go through this collectively over the worldwide population, right? That is just so much bigger than our brains can fathom that like eight million people went through this collective trauma together. That was really illuminating.

So I think, you know, to your question, I think that, you know, I would like to think that people are carrying that forward. But I think the pressure was so strong to let it go and go back to normal. I think there were bills to be paid and mortgages to be paid and kids to go back to school. And I think people learned a lot. But whether or not they can put it into practice now in their life can be a challenge. And that's quite honestly, George, why I wrote the book is I wanted it to be a blueprint for people who remembered that they wanted to make some sort of change, remembered that, oh, my God, I did see things differently. How come I can't hold on to that? And offer them something that was a bit of a roadmap, if you will, for how to get back to that and how to really make those changes and how to go forward.

whether it's small things or much larger and deeper things, I wanted to kind of catalog it and chronicle it in a book so that people and myself had it. And so that now as we get further and further away from this massive collective experience, there's a reminder that it was real, right? Like what we saw was real, what we experienced was real, and permission we gave each other to make change.

was real. And I think that that permission has gotten eroded now. And we're sort of just like, hey, got to get back on that treadmill. Got to get back on that treadmill. The economy's back. Got to get back on. And I want people to know that they don't have to and that they can part of a life full of meaning and part of a life worth living is a life that's examined, right?

And like one that's that you take the time. to, if you have the time and you can create the time, to step back and re-evaluate some of it. They say old habits die hard and calluses grow back quickly. What are some tools or some techniques? Like when people hear normality calling back to them, hey, George, 40 hours, 60 hours, buddy, come on, man. It's free and sure. Come on, man. It's not that bad.

Like, what are some techniques and tools that you use to remind yourself of like, hey, I'm not going back to that abusive relationship. Like, what do you do to the person that hears normality calling back to him? I've thought a lot about this. And because, you know, in the process of writing a book, especially one like this, that's going to live in the self-help aisle or lane or shelf, you know, very naturally, your publisher and your editor saying, you know, give people takeaways, give people takeaways. What is it that they, you know, give people actionable steps?

And so I use the word practical and tactical all the time, right? Like practical and tactical strategies. But what I've come to sort of realize is that, you know, my life experience on a day-to-day as a engaged man in New York City who's a writer is very different than a single mom in Missouri who picked up my book because her friend told her about it. So a lot of those takeaways I tried to make as universal as possible. I promise I'm coming to a point. But what is more important, I think, is to ask yourself some questions, right? When you feel normality or normalcy calling back to you, you feel the treadmill calling back to you, and you feel yourself on autopilot or pressured to get back to autopilot,

I encourage people to think through some questions. How do I slow this down? How do I put limits back in? And how do I humanize this moment? And those are three things that I encourage people, because I think those are the principles behind my book, and those are the principles. That is what has changed the most in 20 years.

We have sped it all up. We have removed all of the limits and we dehumanized it all. So in order to counter that and to extend the awareness and to live more in the lessons and less in the treadmill, ask yourself, how can I slow this down? How can I put limits back in? and how can I rehumanize or bring more humanity to this? And that can be anything from, you know, my kid behaving badly to pressure to go back to the office five days a week, to, you know, what aisle should I check out at the grocery store? Those are the things that have been changed on us and in front of us and in our system.

And our power is going to come back more and more and more, little by little by little by little, if we can slow down, put limits in and rehumanize the experience. That's really well said. The idea, just how far we've been dehumanized to see ourselves as numbers, to see ourselves as an algorithm on some level and to see the way in which lots of money is being put into familiar. familiarize ourselves with, you know, if you just look at the metaphors that have changed throughout the years, like they've become increasingly mechanistic. You know, it's like, whoa, look at this weird sort of twist of language here. Like, we're all cogs in a wheel or like, you know, there's so many metaphors you can, if you pull back the onion a little bit, you're like, wow, it's interesting to think about from that example. I love watching advertising and billboards. I'm like, who wrote that? Yeah, me too. like what do you have to believe about humanity in order to write that and put that on a billboard or you know I look at messages everywhere I'm so attuned to them now and always have been which is why I think this has always been interesting to me but I'm always just like what possesses someone to write that you know it's like you've really got to like look at the world differently

to communicate a message like that but yeah yeah you know I always use the example of the grocery store because we have in our family no robot rule right like I don't use the I don't we don't go to the self-checkout where you get to do it yourself like it's fucking korean barbecue right like like I'm not doing that like I'm not doing it um and it isn't because like I'm lazy or I feel someone should reform me or blah blah blah blah it's because like that is the social fabric right Like the hello to the person scanning the fucking grocery, that is the social fabric. And the hello to the person holding the door at the church or the person who is the crossing guard or who is the toll taker or who like those are the things that are vanishing. And so when we think about the social fabric fraying, it's because all those little places where the society was held together are.

disappearing. So why are we just, why are we doing it to ourselves? Like, I'm not going to use the robot. I'm going to stand there and say, hi, Emil, how are you? You know? And like, Emil might think I'm crazy for saying his name, but like, you know what? Too bad. Like, hello, how are you? Let's both get on with our days, right? I don't have to have an extensive conversation, but that's where the social fabric is. I think about it. I was raised on Staten Island in New York. And as a kid whenever you entered the island there was a line of toll takers right and like you just went and you pulled up and you gave them at the time your four dollars now it's like 20 bucks or something but um and all that went away and now it's just this like metal barrier with cameras that takes your toll off

of your easy pass and or or like screenshots your license plate and that's it i'm not saying i love toll takers but I am saying that was part of the social fabric, right? Pulled up, you said, hey, how are you? 50% of those people could not give a shit that you were there. They were on their radio. They were ignoring you anyway. But 50% said, hello, how are you? And then we got all with our day.

And so by the end of the day, even if you didn't have a long conversation with people, you had greeted the person at the grocery store. You had said hello to the toll taker. You had been, you know, you said thank you for someone holding the door for you at the pet store. Whatever that is, at the end of the day, you interacted with 10 people. Multiply that by 300 million across the society. And that's a lot of social interaction that is disappearing, you know. So, you know, I don't think big tech is evil, but I do think that we are being,

the society is being changed in very small ways constantly. And we have to kind of fight back. And to me, fighting back is saying hello. Yeah. It's a brilliant point. You know, what effect does,

you know, three million thank yous a day have on the cognitive awareness of a planetary society? Like, I mean, doesn't that, doesn't that mean, we're all more thankful if we use that word. Yes, exactly.

Yes, I think it does. Me too. And I'm not for Day Brown. I don't have the survey to show you. I don't have the data to show you. I think that it does. I think you would be silly to not think that that's true. Of course.

I don't know how you would think that that's not the case. We are 300 million people in America. And if you eliminate that gratitude and you eliminate that, Yes. You know, that sense of grace from our day. Where does that leave you? I'll tell you where it leads you. It leads you with a generation of children who don't know how to say, please, and thank you.

And I realize that I sound like my grandfather and I don't care. But like I look at my nieces and nephews and I realize, like, why am I having to teach, like, say, please, say thank you? It's not that they're rude kids. It's that they don't have the practice of it, right? They don't have the practice of it. They need new sneakers. They go on their phone. They have their mother approve it.

And it's ordered, right? They don't have the practice of going into a shoe store and saying, can I try an eight? Can I try an eight and a half? Thank you so much. And I'm going to try them on. Oh, this doesn't work. Let me get you another one. Thank you for getting me the other one, right?

That's an entire social interaction that has been completely eliminated, right? Yeah. And so it isn't that they're spoiled or they're bratty or they're terrible people. They're not. They're kids. They're beautiful. But they don't have the practice of being in the society constantly interacting. And I think that the flip side of that is true too. Not only is a please and thank you, but then we kind of also rob our kids of the ability to resolve conflict and to and to mediate disagreement and argument. if you're not out in the society every day solving problems, those problems get harder and harder and harder to solve. Again, I don't have the social data to show it to you, but I can't imagine that that's not true across 300 million people

and then 8 billion people across the world, right? If we're not in the practice of solving problems, small problems every day, whether that's you rang that up at the wrong price, can you correct that or you took my parking spot or you sat in my seat that's my seat those things can scale up in very large ways i think across the society and we're not giving our kids the opportunity to learn how to mitigate conflict or de-escalate conflict or solve problems you know yeah that's a that's me on my high horse george there you go i love it Yeah, it's interesting.

My daughter and I, a while back, were at like a local convenience store. We went in there and there was nobody working registers. So they really, I used to go to this corner store all the time, and they really, really wanted people to use their machines. They really wanted to do so they cut all their staff and they had like one person that was just like mediating between the machines. And I was buying my wife some champagne and I was there with my daughter. We were checking stuff out. And it's like, you can't, you have to have somebody come over here and like, you know, put in their code. whatever because it was 21 and over.

And my daughter already knows. I have a huge problem with these machines. She was like this huge line of people. It was so inefficient, you know, and they were trying to do it on purpose to make people like use these machines. Dang it. And the lady came over and she's like, excuse me, sir,

your daughter isn't allowed to touch that bottle. And like I took the bottle and I'm like, this bottle and my daughter touched it. And I'm like, she just did. What should we do? Like, what should we do? She just touched it. You know, like you can see everybody.

I'm like, I hate these machines. Like I'm talking to you. You're a brilliant person. Like we wouldn't even be having this problem with the machines. The whole crowd behind me was like, yeah, these machines suck. It's so crazy, man. But you know what? I think that it's a Trojan horse.

Maybe I'm being way too polyam here. But, you know, why can't those machines pay an income tax? You know, maybe they could be independent contractors. And, you know, maybe we should be taxing all those machines every transaction. And like, everybody would be better out. 99, 1099, 1099. 1099. That would be so amazing, right?

But you bring up a brilliant point about labor and tax structures and who's doing the work in the society. And the point is, this is all changing fast and it's all going to change even faster. And you add AI to it and you add advanced technologies. And these things are going to change and change and change and change. So the question becomes, who are the people writing the rules? for the policies around this? Who are the people writing the rules for how these things are supposed to function? And my answer in the book is big corporations are writing the rules, right?

They're the ones getting you to click on your subscription. They're the ones getting you to agree to how this is all going to work and function. And that's not really the representative that we need, right? That's not really where the policymaking should be happening. The policymaking should be happening at a government level with people who are actual public policy makers. But of course, as we've seen, that has problems of its own. So, but your point being like, it's changing fast.

And it's, and I'm not sure everyone's thrilled about it because everybody behind you in line is saying, we hate these machines. Yeah. Yeah, I, that's why I think the message in your book will resonate with so many people. It's it is changing. And maybe, maybe COVID was enough. Maybe there was enough people that became aware that it was a tipping point, as Malcolm Gladwell would say. You know, maybe it was a tipping point.

Maybe the people that had enough is enough to break the center. And like, okay, okay, fine, we're all going to step aside. Now what are you going to do? We're going to force people to make rules. And you can see it here in the Bay Area. Like people are desperately trying to get people to come back to work. Like, everybody's got to come back or else. And they've moved like these threatening statements.

Like, come back. It's really rare. Yeah. You know. Oh, same thing in New York. It's like, or else. Like, or else? Yes.

What? You're going to hire me and I'm going to go get another job. Like, what's the problem here? Like, it's more complicated than that. I know. It is. But it's, but it is very strange to hear people, you know, mostly who are like high, high executives who commute about a block and a half to go to work or don't even come in five days a week.

to be telling people who live two hours away in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Connecticut, you've got to be here every morning at 9 o'clock for five days a week. Yeah. Do you see an exodus of talent happening when people are given this sort of ultimatum? Do you see the talent going, okay, I just go over here. I don't really like that anyway. Do you see the talent moving away from these sort of authoritarian rules?

I don't know because I feel like I'm not in the, in the corporate space enough to understand the day to day of what this has been. I do know that that, you know, we sort of went from, what was it called, the great, the great resignation? Great resignation, thank you. From the great resignation to the other day, the New York Times reported about the great stay, which is like people are now like staying in jobs. And so other people get to them because of the staying.

So you think, you know, people have sort of moved, found new jobs. Now they're not really willing. After the election, people will feel like they have more clarity about what's coming. And they'll feel more empowered to make changes. But, you know, isn't that the rich soil of a good economy that people do change, that people can, you know, shift jobs, that people can move around? You know, my opinion's about it, but I'm not in the economist. No, I value your opinion. And I think we're in the midst of sort of a bread and roses type revolt where, you know,

what you're seeing playing out in the media is like, oh, yeah, you guys want to stay home? Oh, yeah? Watch this. We're going to fire all of you. Now what are you going to do? All right. We're going to go actually go work for the startup over here that actually cares about the community. I'm going to volunteer at the community center.

And like, what are you talking about? Or I'm going to work for myself. And like, that's what I'm seeing specifically in the interest. Like, I can speak specifically about the entertainment world. Because that's my day to day. But the entertainment world, you know, you're just seeing this bleeding happening at the major studios of talent, of money, of viewership, of all, most metrics. You're seeing this bleeding happening. And to some that's welcomed, it's the summit's not.

But what the major change is you're seeing, I think the number is now that like there were 700 TV shows on the air. Now there are 300 because the studios have cut back. It used to be that there was like 80% of production across the United States was done in Los Angeles. Now it's down to 40%. That's a really tough number for Los Angeles to swallow and for the community of artists and production people to swallow. because don't forget, for every space that you're seeing, there's like a hundred crew behind them working really hard every day to bring you that show.

Those people are suffering in a major way right now because production has been cut so much out west and has been moving around the country and been changing not only around the country, but it's been moving around the world as well. So, yeah, when you talk about talent, talent, leading out. That's definitely happening in the entertainment business. And now the entire business is shifting. It used to be that like five years ago, you'd be like, okay, great, like you should

do a podcast or you should go on YouTube or you should go. Now it's like you have to do those things. And they become sort of your proving ground. And then at some point, it's not even about jumping to the studio system. It's about just like, I can go direct to consumer. I can go directly to my audience, I can go from my laptop in my house directly to the people I want to speak to. And I don't even have to deal with Hollywood, Los Angeles, or that entire monster. I can just go directly. You know, there are benefits to that and there are costs to that and there are risks to that, of course. But I think there is certainly that is happening in the entertainment and media world where even independent journalists are now.

or journalists are now saying, hey, I'm not going to necessarily put up with the rules that you're giving me. And these are very highly paid journalists. Look at Katie Couric, right? Who left the corporate system and now has her own newsletter and her own channel across social media. She's making money. She's getting her message out. And she's not having to be told what is the right way to do it. What is the wrong way to do it? She's a seasoned journalist who's able to go direct, excuse me, I'm fencing with my shirt, who's able to go directly to her audience. And that is a mind-blowing possibility. You know, if you had thought about this 20 years ago, 30 years ago, who would have thought

that that would be possible? Yeah. But it's absolutely possible. Yeah. You know, when you say it like that, I can't help but think of the times we live in as sort of a, you know, a generational shift in, and coming to love yourself or like living a life worth living. Like, you know, and I just, I wish people would work as hard for themselves as they do for other people or other companies, right? It's beautiful to think. And maybe this is what it takes.

Like, maybe all of this is necessary. Maybe this is what it takes for people to go, you know what, I love myself and my family way more than I love that company. I should be, working as hard for me and them as I do for these other people that don't really care too much about me. Do you think that maybe that's what this is? It's like, hey, we are becoming collectively more aware of what it means to live a life worth living. I hope so. I really do hope so because I think that we've never before had as many tools to make it possible. We've never before had the awareness to make it possible. Yes. You know, when I, when my dad and my grandfather look at my life. They're like, what do you do all day long? It's like, do you have a job? Like, what?

Yeah. And I'm very fortunate. And I've worked hard, but I've also been very privileged in the fact that like, this is the world I've grown up in. Like I can make a living from my laptop and it's my life. And it allows me so much freedom and so much, um, such an ability to focus on and be part of the things that are really important to me. And that's just not been the case for so many generations of people. But I do think that that's what's happening. Absolutely. I mean, there is this, I just hope it's happening more, right? Oh, more people are realizing you can work for yourself, you can make a living by yourself, you can go out there and start anything you want in this country. It's an incredible place for all of the criticisms that I offer in the book to our system.

Our system is still producing incredible wealth for an incredible amount of people. And, you know, I don't say that because it's about the money. I say it because it's about the opportunities to say, you know what, I've made enough money this month to give myself three days off or I've made enough, you know, I've created enough flexibility in my calendar that on Tuesday and Thursday mornings, I can go watch my daughter's dance recital or whatever that might be for you. The goal, at least from my perspective, has always been flexibility in order to focus on the things that I love. And I think that that is more and more an opportunity for people.

You know, it takes a lot, though, right? Like you know from working independently, it takes a lot of inner fortitude to be able to say, I'm going to step away from that model, and I'm going to step away from all that that model offers me. And I'm going to forge into this really weird forest where I don't know where the path is. and it gets dark at night, and I'm not really sure where the health insurance is coming from. Right. But the good news is you figure it out.

Right. You figure it out. You take one step, and then you take the next step, and it starts to illuminate itself. And then you get so far into that forest and so comfortable in that forest and so happy that you get to swing from the trees sometimes,

that you're like, oh, you know what? I'm glad I left that. I'm glad I sort of found that inner strength to be able to walk away from that model. Again, easier said than done. Again, easy for me to say and harder for other people to do. But I think we've never before had as much opportunity either. That is beautiful.

I think that that, like that's beautiful. I think that that is the message that I hope people resonate with. And not only resonate with, but I hope it's contagious. And I think that that's a big part of what your book and your, your experience is showing people to do is to live this life worth living, man. But as we're coming up here, you've been really, really gracious with your time. And I'm really thankful for that. And I hope it's the first of many conversations that we continue to have.

But before I let you go, yeah, me too. This is great. Where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Sure, thanks. So most of my world centers at my website, Juliovincent.com, J-U-L-I-O- like Julio, but Julio J-U-L-I-L-V-S-O-Vincent.com. Yeah, I have a short film that just came out at Out on Film in Atlanta,

which was very well received, and that was exciting. So that'll be up on my website soon. And then I have a new book that I'm working on now and doing some writing about the experience of the last year. So I do a lot of writing on Medium. And, yeah, so check out Juliovincent.com for sure. I'm on social media twice a week. I keep it in my calendar.

It's very sort of limited, but I do do it because I think it's an important way to reach people that I don't know. And yeah, mostly I'm sort of excited to just be having these conversations. I'm going to be speaking at South by Southwest in March. I think that's public tomorrow. And yeah, and I'm excited about that, really excited about that. I was supposed to speak last year and I got sick. And so they were very gracious and extended the invitation for this year. So yeah, I get to sort of take to the stage at South by Southwest.

So I'm excited about that. And I welcome these kinds of conversations. And I think we're all still feeling our way through the last five years. And, you know, I don't know that all of us always have the answers, but at least we can share experiences and kind of help each other through. That's so awesome. You're going to crush it, man. And I would encourage everybody within the sound of my voice,

whether you're listening to us live right now, or you're listening tomorrow or seven years from now. Go down to the show notes. Check out Giulio's book. Check out his writings. I think they're inspiring. And I think that if you read them, then you will sort of see the torch that can help you find your way

through the dark forest at times and swing from the vines. I'm really thankful for it. And Julia, hang on briefly afterwards, but to everybody else within the sound of my voice, I hope you have a beautiful day. It's going to be amazing if you have the courage to change your life. Do it. We love you.

That's all we got. Aloha.