TrueLife - Kat Kurner - The Most Dangerous Truth

Episode Date: June 1, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Kat KurnerShe didn’t read it in a book.She heard it in the bones.Whispers from the fireline of her blood,where Cherokee chants ride shotgun with death,and healing ain’t a hashtag —it’s a holy rebellion.Kat Kurner walks with medicine in her handsand a revolution in her spine.At seven, her grandfather — a Cherokee Medicine Man —looked her in the eye and named her future:“You’ve got healing hands, child.”But prophecies don’t bloom in soft soil.They rise through fire,and hers came blazing through the cancer wards,as she massaged her mother into the afterlife —one touch at a time,one tear at a time,until grief opened the gate to her calling.She left the world of crisp suits and recruiter scriptsto walk barefoot with the dying —hands anointed,eyes wide open,unafraid to look death in the face and say:“I’m staying ‘til the last breath.”Since 2002, she’s run HealingWithKat,but healing’s never been the whole story.Not in a world that’s forgotten the sacred.Not in a system that cages plants and criminalizes roots.So Kat sat with the ancient ones —peyote, psilocybin, ayahuasca, cannabis —not for the high,but for the homecoming.She trained in the Netherlands where it’s legal to remember.And now she fights —not with fists,but with ceremonies and sweat,for the decriminalization of Nature Herself.Because in Kat’s world,healing isn’t sterile — it’s wild.It’s not quiet — it’s got teeth.This ain’t therapy.This is ceremony with a steel backbone.This is ancient rhythm wrapped in 21st-century skin.This is Kat Kurner —Let’s begin.Healing with Kat - Soul Journeyshttp://linkedin.com/in/kat-kurner-27a44210 One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I got an incredible guest for you today, an incredible show.

I'm so excited that she's here. Ladies and gentlemen, Kat Kerner, she didn't read it in a book. She heard it in the bones. Whispers from the fireline of her blood or Cherokee Chance Wright shotgun with death and healing ain't a hashtag. It's a holy rebellion.

Kat Kerner walks the medicine, walks with the medicine in her hands and a revolution in her spine. At seven, her grandfather, a Cherokee medicine man, looked her in the eye and named her future. You've got healing hands, child. But prophecies don't bloom in soft soil.

They rise through fire, and hers came blazing through the cancer wards. As she massaged her mother into the afterlife, one touch at a time, one tear at a time, until grief opened the gate to her calling. She left the world of crisp suits and recruiter's scripts to walk barefoot with the dying, hands annoyeded, eyes wide open, unafraid to look death in the face and say, I'm still, I'm staying to the last breath. Since 2002, she's run healing with cat, but healing's never been the whole story. Not in a world that's forgotten the sacred, not in a system that cages plants and criminalizes roots. So Kat sat with the ancient ones, peyote, psilocybin, ayahuasca, cannabis. Not for the high, but for the homecoming.

She trained in the Netherlands where it's legal to remember, and now she fights, not with fists, but with ceremonies and sweat for the decriminalization of nature herself. Because in Kat's world, healing isn't sterile, it's wild, it's not quiet, it's got teeth. So this isn't therapy. This is Ceremony with a steel backbone. This is ancient rhythm, wrapped in 21st century skin. This is Kat Karner. Kat, thank you so much for being here today.

Wow. If it takes me my entire life, I would like to live up to that introduction, please. That was fantastic. Thank you so much. I'm honored to be here. Happy to be in your energy and your great positive attitude. I love it. We need more of it, especially in this space.

Yeah. It's so true. And I think that that introduction is something that so many people see you as. Like you've been on an incredible journey for a long time and you've helped out lots of people. You've sacrificed quite a bit to do what you're doing. And I just want to send a shout out to everybody out there and tell them thank you. You know, thank you from all of us. What, um, go ahead.

It's been so long since you and I have been talking back and forth. But I just thought maybe I'd throw it back to you to say anything that maybe I left out in the introduction there. I don't think you left anything out in the introduction there, but I also just want to acknowledge what you just said because I think it's incredibly important to acknowledge the legacy medicine holders who have been here quietly underground, helping people at great personal risk, risk of personal freedom, financial ruin. people who have heard the call and understand that the helping is the most important, even if it means doing things that are currently against our antiquated legal system. And so I just read an article this morning by a publication I won't mention because I've really become quite disillusioned and disappointed with the way in which they, the direction they've taken.

But I mean, essentially it was like, would you pay someone $1,000 to be a trip-sitter? And it was written by a psychologist who's, you know, I don't know, maybe feeling threatened by the idea that someone could actually sit with medicine and not have to sit on their couch for years and years to come generating their future income. But it was just so disrespectful, I felt.

you know, the tone and everything about it, not acknowledging what has gone into being in a position to be able to sit with someone in these really tender moments, the container that we build, the amount of time and energy that we put into each and every person that we walk this journey with. And so I just want to acknowledge and say thank you again for that acknowledgement,

because it is important. We're still here. We may not be the loudest. We may not have the biggest platforms. And we may not have 50,000 Instagram followers. But there's a lot of people who are quietly doing really beautiful work in the underground and who will remain in the underground. Even when these compounds become legalized or have a clinical framework in place,

there's a lot of us who are never going to put our name on that dotted line. We're going to continue to do our work because we believe in the decriminalized nature ethos, for example, that we should be able to gift, gather, and grow our own medicine to help those in our communities. So anyway, that's my soapbox about that, but I wanted to just say thank you for that acknowledgement. I love it. You know, there's so much going on right now in like the commodification of psychedelics. Alex, and it seems to me, at least in my opinion, when you start commoditizing vulnerability, like you really start getting into the weeds about like, what are you doing? So many of these platforms that I've talking to and I've kind of gone for publicly, I don't think they really

care about health. I don't think they really care about people. I think that they care about making a profit. And when you start seeing the CEOs of these companies wealthy and the kids that come out of there with a degree and they can't do anything of it, I think that those actions speak louder than anything else. And it bothers me, Kat. And I know that you have been on. the underground for quite some time. But what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think that it's going to happen. The commodification is happening. It's going to happen. I don't think that there's really anything that we can do about it. We can be upset and we can wallow and marinate in that, or we can just go and do good work and seek out the people who are heart-centered, who are doing

good work. And my current soapbox issue is about personal sovereignty. I mean, not that it hasn't been my entire life, but I want us to talk more about our own abilities to seek out the people who are right for us to do our most tender work with. I want us to talk more about how we vet the people who we sit with. We can stand and point. point fingers at how they do bad work and this person isn't ethical and they're not safe and all of that. But okay, let's also talk about our personal responsibility to vet the people that we do this work with, ask for referrals, do deep dives on the internet. I mean, the World Wide Web is here.

It's at our fingertips. If you put in my name, you see what I've been doing for a decade. If you come across somebody or somebody is referred to you and you Google their name and there's zero there, you might want to think about continuing to look. So I don't know. It's just that you're right. There's so much going on. And years ago, I was the person who said,

the only way you can sit with these medicines is in my tepee, around a fire, in a good way, in the traditional way. And someone in the UK, who was a doctor, a psychiatrist, said, Kat, you know, I live in a country where half of the people suffer from severe depression. We have the possibility of introducing MDMA or whatever other compound. And the national health system will pay for it. Why are you against that? Why are you against those people also finding healing? finding and I thought, God, I mean, he was right.

Good one. He was right. You know, and so there are many different ways to skin a cat, so to speak. And I find it interesting, too, even with my own story, because I do come from the Cherokee lineage, but I certainly was not raised on a reservation. My work is not Cherokee informed work besides the spiritual and lineage of healing that I carry in my in my blood yeah um i because my own personal journey led me to peyote ceremony through the native american church and i'm still a lifelong member of the native american church however i i don't practice in that way i held my own peyote ceremony because i saw the patriarchy that was that is a

huge part of the native american church and women are not allowed to hold ceremony. And I didn't like that. And I saw a lot of abuses from the male patriarchy in that space. And I thought I could do better. So I was not given permission or sanctioned to hold that medicine, but I did. And I don't regret it. There were a lot of people who were helped by it. But I evolved and I changed. And because of my hospice work and the work that is truly my passion, which is really working with people at the end of their lives or when they're first newly diagnosed, because this is a very, very heavy time for people

when you're going along in your life and then suddenly somebody says, hey, you know, you've got six months maybe to live. It really, really radically changes folks. And so being able to work with people in that time of their life is, I mean, it's just, it's incredible. And so I, too, have grown and shifted. and it's amazing how people don't want me to do that.

I mean, they want me to sort of stay, you know, with a lineage and with, and then it's like, well, you know, Kat, you know, are we not going to do this work in your teepee? And I'm like, I rehomed my teepee. I don't even, my teepee isn't even on my property anymore. And no, this is the container that I've built because I can keep you safely contained if you are going through challenges. if you do decide in the middle of the journey, you want to get up and leave or something like that.

This is where I were. But yeah, it's just very interesting. So I think that I've kind of lost the plot. I don't know what I'm rambling about now. Not at all. You know, basically I just wish that people were more open and took more personal responsibility about their own healing. It's so interesting.

And it's a beautiful answer. It makes me think how much of the huge, is in the seeking, like looking for the right person, doing the research, because you learn so much in that environment. And I think that that is part of a personal journey is trying to figure out who is right for me. And more than that, why are they right for me? That why are they right for me is a huge part of it, right?

Absolutely. I agree. And like I said, ask the questions that these people, trust your instinct. If you have a good connection with someone, trust that instinct and then verify. Yeah. It's so well said. And just the idea of asking the questions. I can only imagine, I would love to, if you could extend a little bit more on there, but it seems to me, when someone gets a diagnosis of cancer or terminal illness, like, there's a lot of questions that happen there. I know my wife was recently diagnosed with what we thought was stage four cancer,

and we sat in that oncology room, and we're sitting in there and they're like, I don't know how to you this, but you think it might be stage four. And what goes through your mind at that time is like, like, I get goosebumps right now just thinking about it. Yeah, me too, me too. Yeah. Like that, you know, it's life changing when you start coming, when everything is peeled away and you're like, you're just sitting there with someone you love more than anybody in the world. And you're like, oh my gosh. Yes. Is this, what does this mean? What are these some of the questions that when maybe you get to sit with some people that find themselves at this experience, is that one of the questions? Or what are some of the other questions that you find yourself engaged with? I mean, there are so many.

The existential angst that comes along with this is so deep and so different for everyone. Yes. I'm working with a gentleman right now that I'm helping to walk home, and he's just angry. He just cannot shift out of the anger into acceptance. And it's really hard to watch. And it's incredibly guttural to watch. Oftentimes with folks as they're entering into the phase of dying, the taste goes. They don't have a desire for food and anything they eat doesn't really taste good. And it's actually quite a gift from our bodies to ourselves because when the body is dying, digesting food is one of the most energy consuming aspects.

And so the body is going, hey, maybe we just won't have food taste good or be appealing so that the person can go into this process. But he's really mad. He wanted to have one last great meal. You know, he's not happy about it. And he's pissed off every time someone brings him something and it doesn't taste good. And he just gets angrier and angrier. So, yes, there are lots of questions that come up. Why me? Why now? I had so much more I wanted to do. And then sometimes folks are just like, cool, I'm ready. I'm ready to go. And then the question becomes, how will I go? And here in California, I'm so, so honored and so grateful to be involved with what we call medical aid in dying.

which allows folks the opportunity if they have a terminal diagnosis and two doctors have said, yes, this person is coming to this as a sound mind. A person can arrange the time that they leave when they exit. And that gives folks a lot of hope and a lot of joy and a feeling of control. because one of the things that can happen as well when you get this kind of a diagnosis is that you have a total loss of control. And then if you are perhaps bedbound

or you have to wear briefs or you can't the bathroom on your own or shower yourself, you can imagine this total loss of control that folks experience. And so medical aid and dying can really bring back a sense of that control of how am I choosing to leave?

When am I choosing to leave? Who do I choose to be there? And it's really quite beautiful. So, yeah, lots of questions. And then one of the things that psilocybin and other psychedelics can do is how people really come to terms with so, so much in a very short amount of time. And find forgiveness for themselves or for someone else in their life.

and come to this place of no fear. You know, sometimes they can really get a glimpse in a journey of the fact that they are vibrational energy and love, and that's where they're going back to. And so oftentimes when folks come out of a journey, they have this piece about them that is really so, so beautiful to observe in one of the reasons why I love it working, with this part of the population so much.

Yeah. So I think of dignity. I think of grace and you said forgiveness. I want to dive into those. But before I do that, I was hoping to talk a little bit more. Like do you work primarily with psilocybin or do you pair up a certain medicine

with a certain type of person or what goes into that particular methodology? Yeah. So psilocybin is my medicine of choice. I was working in hospice and I was a holistic health practitioner, massage therapist. I was, you know, I put my hands on people and counsel people really for 20 years. And during that time, I think that I developed one of the key components for the work that I do now, and that is intuition. Right.

So it's one of the most, I think, important aspects of the work that I do. When Johns Hopkins came out with their study, Roland Griffiths came out with this beautiful study about how psilocybin can help with existential anxiety and treatment-resistant depression as it relates to a terminal diagnosis. I was, that was everything changed in my life, like in that moment. It was almost like that. I absolutely knew at the core of my being that I would work with individuals and psilocybin who were nearing the end of their life forever. Like that would just be a part. It was just because it was like pieces of a puzzle coming together in that moment. That, you know, wow, I mean, this is this is absolutely perfect.

I've been on a medicine path for almost 30 years for my own personal development and my own personal growth. Was a big fan. Cilocybin was the first psychedelic I ever did when I was 13. And I, it was just, it was divine. I had had an experience when I was 19 of leaving my body, just shooting out the top of my head when I was making out with my husband. I mean, he was a really good kisser, but it was, I like to think that it was this divine little nudge to show me

because I was terrified. I had no context for it. I certainly was not in a spiritual community. I wasn't working with the dying, nothing, but I just shot out the top of my head, could see the scene below us, looked down, was scared shitless, screamed, no, immediately came back into my body, and I was filled with this vibrational energy, love, light, whatever you want to call it. And I was crying and laughing at the same time. I tried to recreate it. Could never recreate it again. But I've chosen to believe

that that was the universe's way of going, you realize we are soul, spirit, and we are of this meat suit with this party. You know? So I just feel like everything in my life prepared me for where I am right now. And every single day, I feel immense gratitude for that. Yeah, it's a beautiful story. I'm going to close my window because I think somebody's doing some gardening. Yeah, no worries.

As much as we would love to hear the leaf blower, you probably don't. Authenticity. You can't buy it. Yeah. You can't script authenticity. It's real life, people. You know, so far what we've talked about reminds me of, like you said so many cool things that really stayed with me. And one is, death isn't the enemy forgetting it. And I was wondering if you could unpack that for people and kind of. Well, I've often said it would be wonderful if we could all live our. our lives like we were dying, right? I think there's even a country song about it.

Not my jam, but certainly the message is on point, right? It is very interesting at times when folks get terminal diagnosis, and then all of the sudden they want to do all the things, you know? It's like, why are we not all doing all the things? I mean, why are we not prioritizing? Why do we all think we have so much time? And what if that changed? What if we all thought?

And I credit why I feel like I have lived such a rich and deep, incredible life. Yeah. With the fact that I had death around me at such a young age. I lost my grandparents. I lost my father. I lost my mother. I lost friends. My mother's best friend died of AIDS.

My mother took care of him. So I was experienced with and close to and acquainted with death at a very, very young age. And I think that, I don't think I know, that that awareness, that this is all temporary. And this is just this brief little blip of time that we're here helped me to make really big, courageous decisions in my life, like to leave my corporate career, to move to Switzerland, to travel the world, to not save any money, but spend it all on experiences. That's not a financial tip. Don't do that.

Do some of it. Yeah, but for me, it was the best decision because of that, I've traveled all over the world. I've met the most incredible people. I've had the most incredible experiences. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that, I don't even remember what the question was, but live your life like you're dying. Yeah. And I think the idea of remembering, you know, like you talk about, death isn't the enemy forgetting it. And maybe that speaks to death too, because maybe people never really leave.

I know when I think about the people that I've lost, that's all I really need to do to be in their presence. Like if I think about my son or my aunt or all these people that I've been with, They never really left, maybe the body they left. But I can talk to them, and I do. And I encourage other people that you're out there. If you've lost somebody, just reach out to them and you'll hear them. You'll hear a comment or you'll see the wind blow the trees in a way that reminds you that they're right here next to you. And they're willing to help you if you just reach out to them and have a little bit of faith in there.

Does that sound like it's on part? Oh, absolutely. I lost my brother at the end of January of this year. And my daughter and I were sitting in my living room and I have big pain windows in the living room. And a hummingbird just came like right up to the pain window. And we were sitting there. We both looked at each other and we're like, hi, Danny. You know, and it doesn't, do I think that my brother has taken the form of a hummingbird?

No, I don't think that. But at the same time, why not? Why not let that image conjure a connection between you and the person that is no longer in a physical formation with you now? Why not? When I see a dragonfly, I always say, hi, mom, you know, because dragonflies were just all around me when my mother passed. And so, you know, it's just my connection. It's just my, when something happens oftentimes, again, my daughter and I, because, you know, we, we share a home, you know, something will happen and, oh, was that Danny or is that

grandma, you know? So remember, yeah, remember, remember, remember, you know, remember your loved ones. Talk about them. Say their name. And that's another thing because, you know, we can talk a little bit about people's fear of death is incredible. And I forget sometimes, you know, sometimes when I'm working with a family and suddenly I'm just talking.

There's a fantastic show right now. And I don't know where, I want to say maybe Hulu. It's called Dying for Sex. And you would think that it was more about sex, but it's not. It's much more about dying. And there's, at one point, this hospice nurse is talking with this woman who's dying. And she's going, okay, so what's going to happen is? And then she goes,

Oh, oh, I forgot about it. And she talks about something else. And they're both like, can you just bring it down? Can you tone it down a little bit? And you forget that people don't have the same experience of death that you do when you've been so acquainted with it for so long. And so sometimes, yeah, you've got to, I remember that people are so fearful.

And families, sometimes I just see the look in their eyes of this complete terror. oftentimes when people are requesting that they are there at the time, for example, if they're going to choose medical aid and dying, that they want certain people there. And I've had family members just go, I can't be there. I can't be there when he dies. And I'm like, why? Yeah. And even my own experience, when my mother passed and I was inviting all of my siblings and relatives into her bedroom. where she had passed and I said, come and look at her.

Look how beautiful she looks. And they were just like mortified. And I crawled up into bed with her and I put my head on her chest. And I just laid with her for a little bit. And they thought that I had gone around the bend. And so we have to respect where everybody is with their level of acceptance of death and the dying process. But there's nothing to fear.

We're all going to go there one day. So yeah it's so interesting to to see the way in which it in just my opinion like in the western world we've turned the like the fear of dying is so robust. Everybody and people want to extend their lives forever. But then you look to South America and they have like Day of the Dead and there's like this celebration and like they're having a drink and they're celebrating. They're like he was so great. Remember when this happened? Do you think that that's something that's beginning to permeate in the way? Western culture is more of this celebration and making some grace back and some dignity back

into someone that lived a full life. Yeah. Well, that's part of my mission for sure. Absolutely. I had the honor of facilitating a WhatsApp call between a client once and his dear friend who was living in South Africa. And I did have to, I'm usually pretty composed, but I did have to, to step out of the room because I was so overcome emotionally at the dialogue that was happening between the two of them and the way in which this beautiful man had clearly, really prepared for this call and was going down the line of wonderful experiences. It gets me choked up just thinking about it still. There's wonderful experiences that these two had had together. And thanking him for his friendship and for the gifts that he had brought to his life.

And it was so beautiful. And I just, in those moments, I just feel, even though those are hard things to do, I'm sure it was not easy for this person to put the time and energy into thinking about all of this and then to speak it to his friend who was passing. But what a beautiful gift. Like, what a beautiful gift, right? We all gather and talk about a person after they've gone and, oh, they were wonderful and, oh, they were these. But how lovely to be able to hear it when you're still on this plane, you know?

So. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious how the medicine might deal with this next question, because it seems to me, at least in the people that I've spoken with and in my own life, sometimes the hardest part about someone leaving is the anger that you never expressed to them or things. that happened to you between them and it never got aired out. And so they left and now on some level, you still have this anger and you feel horrible for having this anger. Like, oh my gosh, I didn't do it.

Are there some things like that or other relationships that happened during death? And does the psilocybin help people maybe cope with that? Maybe the person that is dying and the people that see them die. Yeah. So most definitely what I work, because I don't just exclusively work with people who have end-of-life diagnosis. I work with really anybody who's safe to sit with the medicine that's appropriate to work with me and chooses me. And oftentimes we are working with individuals who have deep, deep, ager and unresolved issues with someone who has passed. And again, the medicine

can help resolve that. It doesn't always do all of it at once. Sometimes folks come back, you know, six months later, a year later, and continue the work. The integration aspect of that is so, I mean, the integration aspect of any journey is so vital. I can't stress it enough. But this is one of the reasons, right? So let's say that you have a journey, and in this journey, your relationship with your father comes up, and he's passed. And you have all of this unresolved anger. But maybe in the journey, you see him finally as a boy who was also abused by his father. You see him as a human.

You see him in a different way, not just the person who was your abuser, not just the person. And you are able to reach this place of compassion and forgiveness. And, you know, there are those who would say, well, you know, we don't let people off the hook for, you know, abuses against us. So they want to hold on to that pain like it's a newborn baby. But I wonder what that really accomplishes, right? The person is gone. And sometimes, as I said, when we are in these non-ordinary states, we can accomplish this place, that we can get to this place of true forgiveness

and true compassion and love and understand that we are all just human, after all, you know, at the end of the day. It's beautiful. I think that this is exactly what's left out of the clinical trials in the labs is this underground understanding of forgiveness and compassion. Like you can't measure that with those stethoscope. You can't measure that. And that's, and I hope that the two are coming together.

And I see on the forefront they kind of are. But this is why what you're doing, people like Gareth Moxie, people like Dr. Matt. Yeah, like that's so incredible. Shout out to Gareth. We love you, man. But that's where the roots of the underground really begin to save, not only the lives of allow people to move forward, but the relationships with everybody else. It's so organic and like it's so, it's so beautiful.

Yeah. I mean, it really is. This kind of goes back to what I was saying the very beginning, the respect and the reverence for the folks who have, you know, who saw the power and who knew the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. possibilities of working with these medicines. I mean, look at the folks who work in the Iboga and Ibogaine space. Look at the way in which they are transforming the lives of people who have all kinds of different addictions and substance use disorders. And it's so powerful.

And it must be so threatening to the multi-billion dollar industry of recovery. that doesn't work, that fails people time and time year after year. Look at this incredible, incredible work that they're doing and look at the sacrifices that they have made to do it. I mean, this is something that's just so important for us to remember. It really is. I forgot the question. I'm back to...

You answered it perfect. Okay, okay. Sorry. No, no apologies. It's a beautiful. answer and I think it speaks volumes of where we're at right now. You know, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I did want it.

So I wanted to go, you know, I think it's interesting. We kind of keep coming back to some of those same key points, but in different ways. And that is that, you know, I sat with ketamine in a clinic. Okay. I did a ketamine session and it was a lovely appointed room and soft lighting and and lovely and all of it. And the actual experience of the ketamine, the 45 minutes, whatever it was, was lovely for me.

And I saw some things and I got some places. And then after I had to pee, of course, and it was like, okay, just right in there. And we open the doors and there's the bright white lights of the clinic and there's doctors and there's nurses and there's patients. And there's like, where's the bathroom? Oh, it's right down there. And then you go into this white, sterile, cold bathroom. I'm like, oh my God, like this is not what I need right now.

And I share the story of a woman here in San Diego who is brilliant. You know, masters in psychology. She has a practice here that she supervises, I think, 10 different, you know, psychologist. She was heading up the trials here for psilocybin and. eating disorders. And I had worked with her brother-in-law several years before. And she rang me up and said, listen, you know, I'm about to embark on these trials. I have never sat with a psychedelic in my life. You helped my brother-in-law so much, you know, would you consider sitting with me? And I said, of course. And put her through the entire, you know, the entire protocol. And we sat,

So I feed my clients when they're done with their journey. I believe that we have to feed our mind, bodies and souls. So we're having, you know, this food in the living room after. And she just stopped and looked at me and she said, Kat, we will never be able to reproduce this in a clinical setting. What you have done, how you create everything from start to finish is so beautiful. How do we ever reproduce this? And I thought about it and I was of course like blown away and so honored because I have a 10th grade education. I dropped out of school in 10th grade and tried to go back to college because I wanted to be a psychologist and realize that dyslexia and ADD were not friends of people.

Yeah. Yeah. You want to accomplish a high level of academia, academic success. I dropped out and felt most of my life, you know, like an important. And as I have done my own medicine work over the years and really come into my own practice, and through individuals like her, have realized that maybe I do have a place here in this world of healing and medicine. And for her to say that to me changed my life.

It really did. It changed me fundamentally because I thought, Wow, there really is a place for folks like me who are more concerned about their local community, their village. I said when I first began that I just wanted to be that abuela in the village where when you were having a hard time, you came to the fire and she gave medicine and you sat and you talked and you cried and you did think. I mean, I also live in Southern California and I have a big house here and a property that costs money. And so I also understand that selling my time is okay too, you know, because, I mean, we can talk, we can segue into the commodification aspect and the balancing act of money for service and money for medicine.

In my world, I don't charge for medicine. In my world, I charge for my time. In my world, if someone finds me through whatever change. and they are medically able and okay to sit with the medicine, money will never be an obstacle to working with those individuals ever. It never has been and it never will be. I have plenty of space and time in my world to help people who are not in a financial situation to be able to pay what my base, you know, charge is for a session. And that's my personal philosophy. And there are people who, you know, just like, how can you do that and how can you, you know, I mean,

I charge for discovery calls because I'm worth it in my time and my experience and my education. And that's cool too. You do you. I don't. I don't charge for discovery calls. And I have a very generous sliding scale. I love that, Kat. I'm not sure how we got it to that from that.

But I just, you know, I wanted to get that in, I guess. Well, I think it's the foundation of so much it's happening now. And I don't know, I don't have the answers, but I got lots of questions. Like, can you really build something that is truly healing when the foundation is based on commodification of it? Like at some point in time, you got to choose. Are you in here to help people? Are you in here to make money? And there is a delicate balance.

But I think the people that lean towards, like, the true healing are doing things like you're doing. Like, listen, I'm here to help people. And I know that it's cost a lot of money. And people have sacrificed so much of their time and so much of their money to get an education. I don't want to downplay that anyway. I'm thankful for all of them. Absolutely. At some point in time, what are you there to do?

You know, it's, and maybe that's a personal decision. Maybe everyone has to decide for themselves what's right for them. It's such a great question and a topic because. Yeah. So for myself, when I'm asked, I feel that the work that I do is a calling. I mean, I feel that I'm doing this because. it's a calling. I also, you know, I bought my home 30 years ago. I've been developing this property and making it into the sanctuary that it is for 30 years. And that was blood, sweat and

tears, both in the recruiting arena, and my practice as a holistic health practitioner, and massage therapist. I chose to not, I shop at the goodwill for my clothes and the clothes of my family and the furnishings in my home. I don't buy retail. I choose to put that money into things like building a barrel sauna or, you know, it's like every dime I have practically goes back into this property which nourishes folks. I also have income property that I built on this property. So I have debt that I that also produces money every month so that if so that I don't have to lie on the money that I make from my practice to survive. Because that's where folks get into problems and they get really into trouble is if you

let's say you open a place in Costa Rica and that takes money and you have to have staff and you have to pay the electric bill and you have to pay the rent and you have to do all of these things. Does that not possibly lead to persons not? doing great work all the time. Does it not lead to persons possibly being exhausted and then cutting corners for safety? Does that not lead to possibly people accepting people as a client who maybe shouldn't be? I think it may. And so I have about three apprentices that I work with a year. And that means that three people find me and say, we want to learn from you. It doesn't cost them

anything to do it. I only work with people who are local in my community. I don't work with people from out of state because that's just my commitment to my local village. But, you know, the first thing I tell folks is, hey, if you're coming here into the space and this time to make money, if you think you're going to get rich off of this or they walk in and they see my house and they think, oh, my God, you know, I want to do what you do because one day I want a house like this. It's like, I got, I got news for you. You got to work really, really hard for a long, long time. And I think especially with the newer, with the younger generation, the newer generation, the younger generation,

it's like they want everything and they want it now. And they see that they can have a platform with, you know, they can buy Instagram followers and they can build a course or they can build it or whatever it is that they offer and they do. And I just sit back and I go, wow, that's, that's so interesting. And I feel that folks like that just don't last, you know, know, like they maybe have a few years and then they just, they get burn out because their work is not heart-centered. And so the answer, you know, can, you're right. And I feel the same. I know really

good people who have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting educations and letters after their names. And now they're just so disillusioned. They don't want to sit and do the 55-minute hour. They know it's not effective, but what are they going to do with the $100,000, $200,000 in student debt that they have now? So I don't fault folks or, you know, bag on those who have, you know, practices or clinics or whatever. I think that there's a place for all of us here. I think it's again, back to the individual to figure out what it is that they really need for their healing at their particular time and space. It's really, it's really well said.

Thanks for putting it out there. That's my opinion. So I mean, yeah. Yeah. And I, I resonate with so much of it. You know, I think when the instrument becomes an institution, it loses its ability to be effective. And when I see so many these schools out there, some big name, some big name people in

the psychedelic community have these schools. And the questions that come up for me are like, it seems to me, education isn't working for people. Like they're not enough people anyway. Everybody knows someone who has student debt or worse off, someone who will never pay off their student debt. So if you take this higher education model and you put it into a six-month program, a year program or a four-year program,

you're importing a system that doesn't work. It's built on a faulty foundation. And a lot of the people that go down to teach, they have student debt. What is someone that has tons of student debt that just came out of school going to teach a new kid, especially if the kid's borrowing money to go to this school? And how old is this kid?

This kid's in the 30s? What are you going to teach a 50-year-old person? You know what I mean? Like, who are you sitting with? And why are you a teacher? Like, it just, it really bothers me on so many levels. And I know I get upset and some people are like, calm down, George, but I want people that are listening to this that may be seeking.

Maybe they heard the call and they've seen death or they sat with it on so many levels and they want to do it. But they're seduced into this enthusiastic idea of having this quick way to become a guide. And it bothers me on some. And on top of all that, Kat, I think someone graduating from a six-month course or a year course and calling themselves a guide is a slap in the face to people like yourself, Gareth Mock's, all these people that have built a career out of saving lives. And I don't want that to muddy the waters on too many levels.

Am I being too harsh? I mean, that's not for me to say if you're being too harsh, you're not. But I think that, you know, I think the world. world needs a lot of helpers. I think that we're in trouble. I think we're recovering from this overprescribing of antidepressants, which we're supposed to be like, you know, the, the answer to it all. We know so much more now. We understand that so much of our depression and our anxiety comes from trauma, comes from these deep wounds that now these different psychedelics are helping us to truly address for the first time.

It is challenging sometimes. I mean, I tell the story about the first time I ever sat with ayahuasca, the shaman was very white, dreadlocks to hear, and he was maybe 25, and I don't really even know what his background was, because, of course, I didn't ask. And I remember, you know, after we drank and he started playing the guitar and playing music that he had written with his own lyrics. And I immediately started focusing on Charles Manson. There's some reason, who knows why. But in that moment, I said, I have got to get the fuck out of here.

And I got up and I went down into an orange grove where I, I may have set up a blanket and pillow earlier because I thought maybe I might need to get the fuck out of there. My intuition had spoken. And I went down there and I laid on that blanket and I remember at some point he came down and he said, you have to come back into the circle. And I am telling you, I have never said this to another human being ever in my life. But for whatever reason, I felt like in that moment he would understand this language. And I looked at him and I said, I am a Sean.

and I am fine and exactly where I need to be. And he was like, okay. He sort of ran off, right? And I remember just even in that moment, why did you say that? I have never called myself that, nor do I feel that I am that. But in that moment, that was what I felt

I needed to communicate to him. And then I had a rather lovely and powerful experience with the medicine, just her and I together in that orange grove. But so getting back, it is interesting because I have certainly worked with folks that when they came to Apprentice with me, they were like in their 20s and now they're in their 30s. And it's like I see their platforms and I see what they're doing. And I just think, wow, like five years ago, you were a waitress. And now you're an expert on not only this, but that, that and that. damn, I must have been such a good mentor for you.

Even though it's like 20% of what we actually worked on, but that's okay. So again, I mean, I want to bring it back to we have so many humans on the planet with so many different needs. And our own sovereignty is what I feel should be. be talked about more and more and more and more and our own intuitions. People, I can't tell you over the years, they want so much to say, you helped me. You saved me. You brought me back to life. You, you, you, you.

And I'm constantly reminding them, what I did was built a beautiful, safe container for you to do the work. Yes, I put together a. really good playlist. What the help of, you know, Imperial College of London and John Hopkins and John Hopkins. And so, so many others. Yes, I make great food. Yes, I source beautiful medicine from someone who cares about how he cultivates it. Yes, I was present. Yes, I did those things, but you, my friend, you did the work. You had the courage to come here. You had the courage to let the medicine and the music guide you.

You, you, you, you. Because if I could say one thing to people, it's let yourself be your guide, you know. Listen to your intuition. It's there for a reason. We are equipped with this beautiful, beautiful tool that we can all use. at any time. Let's use it more. Let's rely less on the government to give you permission to take care of your mind, body, and soul. You don't need the government's permission. This is you. This is your own journey. And you've let the government make you believe that

alcohol should be legal, but that beautiful medicine that grows to help you is a Schedule 1 drug. If people don't understand the fucking insanity of that, people need to. It's such a brilliant point. This whole idea of external authority and external validation for us to believe that we're worth something. You know, it makes me feel on some level that we've built this cage. We've built this cage and people are so happy to, hey, like, I'm going to get a little corner of this cage over here. This isn't going to be sweet. I got a pillow.

And, you know, even when like people talk about, I know some people that are putting on some interesting events about like a shark tank and stuff like that. But for me, the most dangerous part about a shark tank isn't the sharks. It's the cage. Like that is the most dangerous part of being in a shark tank. And if you realize that, you go through the sharks are nothing. This cage opens up or it sticks. Like, I'm dead.

The sharks aren't going to kill me. The cage is going to kill me. And I hope people can take that metaphor and understand. understand, we're building a cage right now. And if you're not starting to get pissed off, if you're not starting to say like, how else can I, what can I do different? What is the underground doing right now? Because the underground seems to be the people that are aware of that and are like, do not build that cage. Like we don't need this stuff. We already have it. And don't we already have the guys? Yes, we need more. Yes, we need more education. But the system is already here.

It's been in your lineage. It's been in your family. It's been with so many people like the, The antidote has been here for so long. So what do you think? You know, I think, and I think the concept of the idea of a cage is so interesting because so often, you know, as you said, I mean, we build our own cage, right? Yeah. We put ourselves in the box, right? And so another thing I love about psychedelics is that they can help you step out of that cage, right?

So maybe the answer is, you know, more psychedelics to help people step out of that page. But you also have to remember why do cages exist most of the time, right? It's to keep control, right? If you go to a dog pound, you have kennels. You have cages. Why? Because of the dogs were just running around, you know, how could the people control them? How can the government control you if they don't have you in a cage, right?

And so your own liberation is the biggest threat to authority. Your own liberation. I remember like back in the late 80s, I had a t-shirt that said, kill your TV, liberate your mind. And it had a baseball bat smashing a television, like a box television because I'm that fucking old. Right, right, right. And I think about that now.

Like I don't have television. I don't listen. I don't, I'm, when I'm on Instagram or Facebook or something like, I mean, I've, I've, I've cultivated what comes into my mind and what, you know, what I allow. I don't, unless I don't look at ads, I don't, you know, and the people who are there are a very select few that I know what their message is and their message is positive, their message is spiritual, they're, you know, and so I think once people, it always blows my mind the folks that have, the television going at all times like with advertising and all this just running in the background

constantly and it makes me nervous in fact when i go into people's houses um you know and that's happening i ask them very politely would you mind if just for the time i'm here we could mute that and they go oh oh yeah sure sure you know because for me it's impossible i can't think when i have that that background noise happening. So I you know it's just it's wild and I and I and I feel your passion and your and your frustration and I've been there time and time and time and time again. Just recently when my when my brother passed I was at I was in a grief spiral. You know, my brother was my best friend and I felt that I had failed him in ways because I didn't get him to medical aid and dying in time and I didn't get it. There was so one

that I was battling with. And then there was family issues. And then there was having to put my practice on hold for three months or choosing, I should say, not having, putting my practice on hold so I could be present at bedside with him. And I was just exhausted emotionally, spiritually, financially, I mean, it was just really, it was a hard, hard time for me. And I was not my best self. And I completely lost my temper with my daughter and another person who was present. And I was, I was so full of shame, you know, and so full of, you know, in that moment that I had, because, you know, Trump had just happened and the disgust that I was carrying in my heart and my soul for my fellow Americans, like, how could you let this happen? And all of it was just building

and building and building. And I just, I remember being in that moment of just the shame of, of, of, of, emoting in that way and not being, as I said, my best stuff, not showing up in the way that I was really, I was so, so embarrassed and so disappointed in myself. And then the longer I sat with that, the more I went, what are you doing? Like, why are you doing this to yourself? Where's the grace? Where is the forgiveness for yourself? Where is the acknowledgement of where you're at in this moment and that this is not the sum total of who you are. And I think that we are very often told and sold a bill of goods that we should be a certain way, the cage again, right? And if you go and you step outside, then you have a, you have no right to have an emotion, you have no right to have

a feeling or to just to not be your best self on a day. But because we have all of this media, we have all of this, you know, constant phone coverage. I think to myself, my God, if someone had recorded me in that moment and blasted it all over social media, you know, how would I now be perceived? And so at the end of the day, you have to be okay with yourself. You have to have that forgiveness with yourself and for yourself. And I think that, again, one of the reasons I love working with psilocybin especially and other compounds is that it can really help you to have that forgiveness. And again, to come back home to yourself where hopefully you haven't made a cage of it.

And if you have, I love the line, the Eagles line, that says, says, right? So oftentimes it happens that we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key, right? Yeah. Cudos to the Eagles that were doing copious amounts of psychedelics when they wrote those lyrics because they are very, very true. You can see the stars but still not see the light. That's right. Don Henley is, I think it was him and Joe watched. Amazing. You know who's really good too? Is Anthony Akitas from the Red Hot Chili Pepper? He's got some really lines too. Unbelievable.

Oh, I mean, music is my second language. So, I mean, we don't even go there because that'll be a whole, that'll be a whole other, you know, time we could spend together because I will go deep. I will go real deep. Nice. I got so many questions stacking up over here. And I haven't been paying attention because I've been so enthralled of this conversation. But let me move over to some of these conversations over here. Thank you.

We got the incredible Joshua Moyer. Joshua Moyer is an incredible artist. Everyone should check out his new album. Joshua, thank you. I can't wait to talk to you a little bit later. I appreciate the George's intros are the best. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate that.

For sure. Jen, Jen on the scene, she's really been starting to make a name for herself. I know she's doing a lot of cool volunteer work out in the psychedelic community. So if you're someone that's looking for someone to help out, Jen is the person. She says, Kat, your authenticity and your humility is inspiring. Thank you for doing the work. And it's just so refreshing. Thank you, Jen.

Thank you so much. Thank you, Jen. I'm just newly connected with Jen and I'm excited about that. Yeah. We got another user that says be kind to yourself and heal the world. Love it. Yes, please. All right.

Here we go. We got the great Clint Kyle's from the psychedelic Christian podcast. He says, man, I wish our entire economy could function with that much grace and understanding. Thank you, Clint. Oh, wow. Thank you so much. What a beautiful compliment. Thank you.

Yeah. Who else did we got over here? We also have another one that says thank you both for a beautiful conversation. Have a stupendous evening. Thank you. And I also got a few more coming in from another monitor I have over here. And this one comes in and it says, this one comes to us from Desiree. She says, what part of you had to die so your true work could live?

Oh, that's a great question. Parts of me continue to die every day. What part of me? Well, so I'm a Leo with a Sagittarius rising and my moon is in Virgo. So if you know what do you think about astrology, you know that Leo's come into the world with probably some of the biggest egos. And I hate to talk about ego death because it's so over talked about. But I will tell you that in ceremony, in medicine, my ego has died over and over and over and over again.

So definitely. I'm sorry, I wish I had a more interesting answer, but it certainly is ego. I heard an interesting frame a while back. I was talking with Eric Kaufman, and we were talking about masks and part of his dying. And he said something that I'd never heard before. And he goes, you know, George, a good way,

he goes, the way that I see it is I see these parts of me that died as my inner ancestors. And it allows me to look back and be like, you know what, I'm proud of that younger version of George. I'm proud of that younger version because even though they didn't get there, like they allowed me to get there. I thought that was a really cool way to sort of give like self-forgiveness to your thoughts. What do you think about that? I mean, forgiving yourself is just everything.

It just really is. I mean, I think it's challenging to forgive anybody else if you cannot forgive the most precious person in your life, which is yourself. And so, yes, please, please find that forgiveness for yourself, as I had to do, like I said just recently. I really went in hard on myself. I really beat myself up hard about the way that I showed up. And man, it was, and I didn't come to that place alone. I reached out to my community of elders. I reached out to my close circle of friends,

people who really, really know me. And then people who reached out to me, who I don't even know very well, but they know a sort of, at least a social media snapshot of me. but they are still people who I really respect their work, reached out to me and said, Cat, you know, we see you, we know you, we're holding you, and surround yourself with people who know you

more than the worry about what strangers think who don't know you. And I was like, oh, right, I forgot about that. And it brought me back home to myself. And so I'm grateful and you people know who you are. Yeah, it's a beautiful answer. This one comes to us from Benjamin C. George, Mr. Wizard. He says, what's the most dangerous truth you've ever told? Oof, the most dangerous truth I've ever told.

Well, danger is also subjective. The one I probably have to tell most is you're dying. Yes, you are dying. Yes. you are going to die. I don't know how dangerous that is, but it's the one that is probably the biggest truth I have to tell a lot.

And can feel dangerous to some. What is the reaction you get when you have to say that? I mean, it just depends on where the person's at. You know, sometimes it's like, oh, okay, right. They forget. You know, they've forgotten. And then it's like, oh, okay, well, now what? Okay, what do we do next? Where we go from here? Sometimes it's just pure sadness. Sometimes it's anger. It's a myriad of different reactions for sure. But the, you know, I also people don't remember that we're all dying. Yeah. Right now, you, me, we're dying too. Some people just have more of a time frame. Yeah.

that is it's it's interesting to think about what's important in life and and what happens when someone tells you something like that yeah here's another one coming in we have this one's coming from this one's coming from betsy betsy we love you she says when did you first feel the medicine of death as a teacher rather than a thief wow what a great question You have some incredible people who follow you, my friends. I got the best audience in the world. Okay. Can you repeat the question one more times?

I want to make sure I absorb it. Yes. When did you first feel the medicine of death as a teacher rather than a thief? Hmm. Well, the first thing that came to me was peyote meeting. So I was definitely sitting with peyote. and I saw in that moment my daughter, who had not died physically, but was, she could have been very close.

And in that moment, I released her to whatever destiny she had. And that meant that she would physically be leaving. I had to accept that. And I saw her at peace in that moment. So death as a bringer of peace and liberation came to me in that moment that if that was how she needed to be liberated from the struggle that I had to accept it and I had to be at peace with it.

so it's such a beautiful word liberation and to see it to see you know death has these all these connotations with it and this emotions tied to it but if you start seeing it as liberation that definitely changes the way you can see the world and the relationship to it thanks for sharing that there yeah this is a great question who is this this one is coming to us from i don't see your name I'll find the name and put it in there. What power do you think lives in grief and what power lives in rage? Ooh, I can't believe. These are the best questions I've ever had, by the way.

So what we know is that sadness often sits on top of anger, right? Yeah. And so we know that oftentimes when people are just furious and angry, they're sad. And so that's really my experience of anger. And say one more time. What power do you think lives in grief? And what power lives in rage?

I mean, I think the power of sadness lives in rage. And I think the power of grief reminds us of how much we loved. Yeah. I love it. There was a really great book of poems. I think it was Alice O'Neill, but I remember I used to read them to my daughter. And there was all these emotions and they were embodied. And one of the first lines was, it was a, I sat with anger so long.

She told me her real name was grief. Yes. It's so beautiful. I was like, oh, my gosh, it's so true. So true. So often, if we can dissect our anger, we will. we will find that at the core of it is just is a sadness. You know, even myself when I was, you know, when I was angry with my daughter for once again relapsing or once again, you know, it was, I was so sad because I missed her.

I wanted her so much to be a part of our family and living and breathing, you know, I wanted so much. And I wanted it at times more than she did. and so my anger had to be, you know, transmuted into compassion and understanding that it was really sadness. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. It's not a good podcast if someone doesn't cry. I know. You know, I know, I remember my sister, she.

found my niece after she overdosed on fentanyl. I know. So sorry. You start thinking about what is it like to walk into a room and see your own child no longer living because of something that happened, you know, circumstances, whatever they are. But just those go to the side. But what is that? What kind of a teacher is that? And how do you even get to the place where you begin thinking that it's a teacher?

Like this is, this is, I mean, I can tell you, it really tests your faith in the idea that everything happens in divine right order and that everything that's happening is exactly what is supposed to be happening. And then it tests the reality that our children come through us. us that they don't belong to us. They're not ours and that they have their own path and their own destiny and that we were here to bring them into this life and then to let go. And sometimes we have to let go when we die. Sometimes we have to let go when they die. Sometimes we have to let go when they choose to no longer be a part of the family because they've chosen out of their own suffering and of their own trauma drugs or alcohol. And any way it happens, the letting go is never easy.

It's never easy. And so I'm just going to sit here and cry if that's okay. Yeah, yeah. It's, whoo, okay. You know, two words come to mind. One is initiation. I'm 57. I cry all the time now.

Sorry. It's just part of like what I do now. So. Well, I think it's, I don't think you can do what you do without crying sometimes, you know? Oh, I cry. I cry a lot. But how much of these ordeals or these initiations or being close to losing the people you love the most allow you to be successful? at what you do. Like you can see people's pain because you've been through it. The language of

lived experience on some level is what allows you to actually help other people. And that maybe that's the area on the thread that runs through wanting to help people is that lived experience that you've been through. For sure, I think that people, I can't imagine that there's a lot of folks who come to the helping profession, certainly not hospice, you know, just because they woke up one day and they decided to do that. I think most of the people I know who work in the helping professions are coming to it because of their own traumas, their own experiences, and then truly wanting to help people. A lot of folks I know in the addiction space, I mean, they feel truly they owe a debt to either the medicine and then help.

helping folks with that medicine or counseling or whatever it is because they know themselves how closely they came to no longer being here as a result of their addictions. And I don't know how successful I am, but I would say that my deep, deep reverence for the people I work with and the work that I do is absolutely, you know, in part to the lived experiences I've had. I've had a lot of deep grief. I mean, my first husband took his life, my second husband passed away, my son-in-law took his life in a very, very tragic and tragic and dramatic way, leaving my two-year-old grandson without a father. My daughter imploded. Had no idea how to handle all of the weight of that grief. We have my other brother committed suicide,

I, you know, we've had a lot of grief and a lot of tragedy in our family. And it certainly has, I think, lent to my ability to be present with folks during some really rough times and the most tender times that they face. So, yes, I think. And that's, I think that's one of the challenges with the, you know, the sort of, you know, the 29-year-old or the 30-year-old, you know, shaman or the, it's like, I believe that you have to be on the planet for a certain number of years and have a certain number of experiences. Now, that's not to take anything away from people who are old souls. I think I was an old soul. I feel like

I've always been 50, you know? So there's just this balance. There's just this balance. And there are a lot of younger folks, by the way, that need, I think, mentorship from people who maybe understand them a little bit better. I don't speak millennial. I'm the first one to admit it. I am not good at it. I am not good at asking for hugs. I just open my arms and I try to hug everybody. And I don't realize the pain of that that it inflicts on people sometimes.

I don't ask permission to talk about stories sometimes. And I don't do things the right way sometimes. And I think that there are folks out there who are dedicated to knowing what products to buy, what things to watch, who you can say what to and all that. They are literally practiced at that art and they do it so well. And they can live in Portland because I couldn't. I would get kicked out, I'm sure, because I wouldn't do something right. So I think that there are those people who are deeply in need of help and connection

from folks that do those kinds of things right. The old folks who still don't ask for permission to hug, people can come and talk to me. That was, I'm being kind of an asshole. I mean, I, I, I, just being honest. I'll ask for permission to hug. hug people now. It's interesting. I've done that before and people, sometimes people get really weirded out by it and you're

like, oh, it's happened to them. Oh, you need to kind of feel this. Whoa, I just violated this person. And like that was not what I was trying to do. I know. And I had no disrespect to people who have been hugged without permission and felt violated either. But I will just tell you that like for me now, I think I do some kind of a combination where

it looks like. Yeah. That's a beautiful way. Can we? And then we had the whole COVID thing on top of there where people were just freaked out about germs and not, you know. And I remember, gosh, right after COVID, I was at a gathering with somebody I've known for years. And I was like, oh, my God, it's been so long. She's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we are not doing that.

I was like, oh, shit. Whoops. But it was just because of the COVID fear. So, you know, yeah, everybody's, you know. Everybody's right in their own path and we have to be respectful of all of it. So I try to do my best every day. My little dog is outside wanting to come in so badly. Do you mind if I let him in?

I'm just going to pause for a moment. I'll be right back. Yeah. Yeah, thank you to everyone who's spending time hanging out with us. Everybody in the comments, she thinks for hanging out with us. It's such an incredible time that we live in right now, trying to find out the path that you're on and having the courage. My apologies, but any moment, I think that he was going to break through.

Yeah. Should have brought him in the whole time. Yeah. All right. I got another couple of questions stacking up here for you. Let's see. Let's come down here to the front where we started at. Do you believe some of our deepest societal sickness stems from spiritual amnesia?

How do we begin to remember? 100% psychedelics yes without a doubt I mean absolutely and again

it's one of the many things that I love about psychedelics is that it can help people with that for sure yes we have a yes I mean as I said you know just look at the you know the media

that we have the constant influx of this of images and messaging and things that we were never, ever meant as human beings, as souls to carry. You know, it's just, I tell people, the biggest thing that you could do to fight your depression is turn off your fucking television. Like, seriously, go out in nature, build a garden, grow something, connect with an animal, be of service. Go donate your time. Go dedicate your time to a nursing home where there's people who are left lonely.

And talk with the dying. talk with the sick. I mean, go out and be a part of something bigger than yourself and you won't need antidepressants. That's such a wonderful answer. And I think that's a big push for like our society tells us all the time that if you want to be successful, you have to have this. You want to have, you got to make this money. You got to look this certain way. And we're all trying to find this sort of external validation. But the truth is, if you want to help somebody like volunteer at the boys and Girls Club. Just volunteer somewhere and watch how fulfilled you become. More than any money will do for you. It's so amazing. I mean, being of service and people ask me, you know,

sometimes, oh my God, like, why do you do that? Like, why? And I'm like, try it sometime. It's so selfish. It's so, what I do is selfish. I get so, so, so much, so much. And people don't understand that because we're programmed to believe if you're not getting something in return, why would you do that? And it's interesting because the people in my life who talk about it the most, you know, I look at them and I'm thinking, yeah, you don't have any idea because you've never done anything that hasn't brought some kind of a return. And though this does, volunteering, donating your time, it does bring you so much and people just don't, they don't understand it. So, yeah. Yeah.

I think it's like the language of nature on some level. Like when you begin and do a great question that people should ask themselves is, what can I do for somebody that can never pay me back? Absolutely. You start asking that question and you start acting on it. It does pay you back. It pays you back 10 times what you're going to get a paycheck and do this thing and I get it out of money. But what can you do for someone that could never pay you back?

Just keep that question in your mind. It's so powerful. And I will also say that it. It is a bit of a slippery slope sometimes because especially when you're somebody like me, I'm very methodical and very kind of ADD and manic at sometimes at some points. So because of those superpowers, I can get a lot done. And it doesn't mean just because you can, you should necessarily. So sometimes I extend myself too much and I over commit and I over and it's just in it and it's to my detriment.

So balance is everything also. And understanding your own maybe codependence or understand if you're doing this because you're just trying to get love. All of those things I have been absolutely guilty of in my life. So just the self-awareness, I think, is important. Yeah. I know I talked to Dr. Jessica Rochester from the Mahadrina of Santo Dime. Her two books are Ayahuasca Awakenings. Oh, she's so brilliant.

And she speaks so much about self-care, self-love, self-respect. Everything seems to stem from there. Yeah. Yeah. She's amazing. Yeah. And it does. And it's spot on.

Everything does stem from that place, I believe. It's so amazing. Kat Turner, we talked for an. hour and a half and I feel like just being warmed up like I feel like okay now we're settling in we've got these great questions and it always happens when you talk to someone that you really admire and I really enjoy what you're doing I think you're a huge a huge win for the psychedelic community and I love what you're doing and all the people in the chat are staying the same things but as we're winding down here where can people find you what do you have coming up and what are you excited about I'm excited about

having another day to take deep breaths and be around my family and my animals and nature. I'm very excited about that. So I have a website that's called Healing with Cat. I have a little Instagram that's called Healing with KK, because Healing with Cat was taken all those years ago, even though they've never posted one thing ever. And I have reached out to them several times to say, can I please have Healing with Cat? No. Anyway, and then I'm on LinkedIn and Signal.

I am going to be in Denver. I'm really looking forward to speaking at the Iboga speaks. What's the actual? Iboga saves? Yes, Ivoga saves, sorry. Iboga, Iboga, tomato, looking really forward to spending some good quality time with those folks. who helped save my daughter's life, Patrick and Michelle, I mean, are just amazing, amazing people.

And my daughter is actually going to Zoom in during that. So we're going to have a conversation, which I just got goosebumps just thinking about it because Jess is super humble and is not super comfortable talking about things. But she's amazing. She's so smart and so capable. and I'm just really glad that she accepted that invitation. So, and I'll be in Denver just really, you know, even though I was gifted a ticket to Maps, not really a huge, huge fan of it anymore, but just such a huge fan of the brilliant people that I know from all of the world who will be gathering and looking forward to some of the pre-parties

and the after parties and the dinners and just the really, truly being in community with some folks that I respect so much that I don't get to hang out with. So, and yeah, that's it. And then just doing my thing, working my work. That's really it. Yeah. It's so awesome. I wish I had something else to promote, but I don't.

Oh, aren't you speaking at 216? District 216 coming up? Oh, I am. I'm sorry. Yes, I am. That's in September. Yes, I'm really looking forward to that. I love Jacob.

I think he's just got such a great heart and such. I mean, he's really got that balance that you don't often see in the space of really heart as well as that, you know, kind of entrepreneurial thing going on. So we need a balance of both. Yeah, absolutely. Well, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us today to my audience. That's the most brilliant audience in the world. Thank you for all the beautiful questions and being here with us.

Go down to the show notes. Check out. Cat, reach out to her. She's an amazing individual. She's doing beautiful things. Can't hang on briefly afterwards, but to everybody within the sound of my voice, I love you, have a beautiful day.

That's all we got. Aloha. Bye-bye. Thank you.