TrueLife - Katherine MacLean - A Truth Telling, Paradigm-Busting, Open-Hearted Scholarly Conversation

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://greenwriterspress.com/book/midnight-water-a-psychedelic-memoir/Dr. MacLean’s story begins during her first year on the faculty at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine when her path takes a sudden and unexpected detour following the death of her younger sister from cancer. After leaving her faculty job, MacLean travels the world – bringing medical and humanitarian aid to remote Himalayan villages and creating sanctuary spaces for psychedelic support – until she finally settles on an organic farm. While birthing and raising her two children, leading workshops and psychedelic retreats, and training to become an MDMA therapist, MacLean’s traumatic past and the loss of her sister continue to haunt her. When her father’s lung cancer finally invades his brain, MacLean realizes that she must dive straight into the heart of her own labyrinth in order to forgive her dad before he dies.Midnight Water is not only a compelling personal story of psychedelic healing but an inspired vision for a psychedelic future that positions women and family caregivers at the center of home-based healing, from birth through death. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. There's a wrong button here. There we go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the birds are singing.

The sun is shining. I hope that the wind is at your back. I got an incredible guest with an incredible story. The one and only Dr. Catherine McLean, PhD, she is a neuroscientist with expertise in studying the effects of mindfulness, meditation, and psychedelics on cognitive performance, emotional well-being, spirituality, and brain function. As a research scientist and faculty member at the John Hopkins University School of Medicine,

she conducted clinical trials of psilocybin and other psychedelic compounds. She's an author, a world traveler. She's also a mother, a wife, a sister, and a daughter. And I could keep going on and on with the title. She's written an incredible new book called Midnight Water. And I really think that it was Dr. Cassandra Vietin, who summed up your book in a few words that I'm just going to plagiarize and say, as a truth-telling paradigm-busting, open-hearted scholarly memoir.

Catherine, Dr. Catherine, McLean, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing good. My voice is not usually this gravelly, but I guess this is my life now. I'll just be speaking about midnight water until I die. So my new speaking voice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess that's what happens when we get to a certain point and we're always changing. Like sometimes in a trip or when you take a psychedelic subject, you get to a level and then everything changes. So maybe your voice is changing on this part of the journey right here. Right. So Midnight Water, I love the idea that the title is always used in the book. And I always, it's kind of like a Where's Waldo for me? Like we always look in, I'm always looking in the book to find out where they use the title.

And it was beautifully placed in there. Maybe you could give a little bit of background on why you found the need to write the book at this time. Well, I knew I wanted to write it 10 years ago. Right. And my life had to like catch up to the ending of the book for me to write it. And there were many points in the last 10 years that I thought, oh, this is the end of the book. Oh, no, this is the end of the book. And then life just kept revealing more and more.

So what I would say is that midnight water was like a transmission from the future. You know, when I was sitting with my sister in the hospital, I knew the name of the book. I knew the whole book. I knew I was going to write it. It was like faith. I had no choice. And then the question was, when am I going to live into the moment when this becomes reality? And I think the craziest and also most accurate thing about psychedelics, they will show you the future.

And we are, I don't know how many pharmaceutical reps and clients and doctors are ready for that. You know, it's like, do you want to see 10 years into your future? Do you want to even see six months into your future? Because I promise you that information is coming. Yeah. I think a lot of the pharmaceuticals are looking into the past. It seems like that. Right.

Yeah, no. And I just, you know, I think that we have, I mean, there's so much that I can say about psychedelics vis-a-vis health care. But my sense is that they are not health care. They don't belong in medical institutions because what they do is they provide information and communication across these dimensions that our science says are not accessible. They're not, you can't bridge these dimensions. And then psychedelists come in and say, hey, maybe you have back pain because 10 years from now, you will finally figure out that the back pain was trying to get you to change your whole life and quit your job and write this book and have two kids.

You know, so you could cure someone, but then they have to live into that cure. And I don't know that that's, I love that part of it. You know, that's what the book was for me. I'm basically taking people on a 10-year journey of what it looks like. to get a message and then live into the treatment, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, it's eerily reminiscent of the hero's journey for me when I see it that way. You know, it's like you have this call, this call to action,

and there's all these threshold guardians that are like, hey, wait a minute, I don't think you should be a work in here anymore. Hey, wait a minute. You know, it's just interesting how the ideas of psychedelics can produce miracles for us. And sometimes we're just blind to them. Like we just, even though it's a miracle happening in our lives, we're like, yeah, I'm just going to pretend that didn't happen right there. So it's almost mind-blowing to me. Well, and, you know, someone asked me recently, they said, you know, what, why was it that in 2012 and 13, you encountered something you had never experienced before and you chose to follow it rather than ignore it?

And I said, I don't know. Maybe that is a personality dimension. Maybe that's just me being a bit of an adrenaline junkie, always curious, always seeking the new. experience, but I could have put it on a shelf. I could have put the experience I had with meditation, which I could talk about. I could have put the experience I had with my sister dying. I could have put all that on a shelf and said, I'll deal with this when I'm 80. But there's the catch 22.

I saw my sister not be able to wait until she was 80 to have these questions and answers. She got 29 years. And once you see that, you're like, I can't waste a single minute. You know, if it takes me 10 years to figure this out, at least I've done it now while I'm young and have, you know, my wits about me and I can still travel and move around and ask the question. You know, it's interesting. When in the book, when you begin to reveal the idea of the title, it almost coincides with you being in the room with your sister. And like I almost like I had old tears coming out of my eyes when I started thinking it was beautiful. in some ways. And one of the ways that really grabbed me was the banter that you had with your sister

when she was like, I just want to see my daughter grow up a boy. She's like, why? You want to see her grow up be a teenager so she could be a little shit like you were to mom. That was such a cool sister moment right there. Like, I love it right there. That's beautiful. That was the essence of our relationship. You know, it's like I was the good older daughter. I was the first born. I was the older daughter. I did everything right. And she was just the rebel. But interestingly, we kind of switch places in our 20s. You know, she became the very serious mom. Like I said, she got an insurance policy.

Who does that when they're 22? She had her own business. You know, so she became such an adult and stopped rebelling. And that's like what allowed me to start rebelling. And, you know, her daughter now is a teenager and she's not a shit. She's perfect. She's great. She's amazing.

So I was wrong, you know. Rebecca would have gotten the best possible teenage daughter ever. So, you know, someone asked. me, why do you find death so funny? And I said, well, what's the alternative? Right. You know, the alternative sucks. It's like you might as well find the humor in these moments, because otherwise it's just like unbearable. And that's what we had in her hospital room. Like, there was the pain and the confusion. And then right next to it was the humor. And the humor is what kind of got us through. Like, you know. Yeah. It reminds me of the relationship that kind of

the dark humor that psychedelics has in a way that might be preparing us, right? No, that's true. And I think I talk about that in chapter two when I say that the mushrooms have a really twisted sense of humor. Like, they think it's cute to invite you to a party and surprise you with your worst traumas. Like, they think it's like they're helping. You know, they're like celebrating the fact that you're finally aware of this shit that you've hidden away and like won't look at. And the mushrooms are like, here it is. Like, are you excited? No, you don't understand what being a human is like. I'm not excited.

This is hard work. And I'm often going to like, why. Come on. Right. We're getting to the good stuff. You know how long I've been trying to hide this? That's why I hit it down there. I don't want it up here, right?

It just brings it right to the forefront right there. Yeah, it's interesting to think about the way in which our relationship with reality can really change when we start to have a relationship with, you know, of different heightened states of awareness and different sort of, you know, be it psychedelics or any sort of mood-altering ideas. Has your niece read your book? No, not yet. And actually, I'm, so I'm, we're picking her up this Friday, Thursday, flying on my book tour to Bermuda and London. And so she's coming with me. And my aunt said, oh, she can read your book while she's on the plane and I was like, I don't want her reading this until she's 21, you know. There's a thing that kicked in in me that, you know, I'd rather have the conversations with her. Right.

Based on her questions, then have to kind of live into this story that's like a little bit removed, you know, it's removed from her life. Like, she remembers her mom, but only a little bit. And, you know, I want to be the, it's okay if I'm the crazy aunt, but I don't want to be that crazy. Like, I still want her to trust me and come to me if there's, if there's an issue. So, but yeah it's a it's a question you know i had i had some of the copies out and my eight-year-old daughter started leasing through it i was like no no no no you can't read this and i remembered myself at 10 finding stephen king you know and all the like craziest stuff i could find in my parents library and it's like she's two years away from that you know so the perspective it was

so wild and just the fact that you tell her she can't read it means she's probably already got a copy in her room reading it right She's a great reader, right? So it's like at eight years old, she can read this and have questions about it, understand it. You know, maybe she can't pronounce all the words, but, you know, she's pretty precocious. Imagine that. In Hawaii, they say the coconut doesn't fall too far from the tree. So, you know, Bermuda and London, are you going to, yeah.

Go ahead. You know, a trip to, yeah, Bermuda and London, are that, are you going to? to see, are going to the beach where you finally laid your dad to rest? So, yeah, Church Bay. I don't name it in the book, but I'm happy for people to know where it is. It's a very small little secluded cove just on the south shore. It's kind of a local beach, you know, tourists don't go there very often. It's actually great scuba diving.

There are these huge parrotfish. They're like this big and they look like rainbow mermaids from the top. And they come all the way up to the surface so that you can see their fin come through the water. And they actually eat the coral. And they kind of gnaw at the hard coral that's right by the beach. And so if you kind of get past where the parrotfish are, there's this amazing scuba diving. And one of the last times I was at Church Bay, two friends actually came. And one of them brought me a microdose of mushrooms.

Yeah. And it was the first time in years that I was like, because with me in mushrooms, I'm like, oh, God, what are they going to show me? You know, like, I just, I'm always a little nervous. And I'm like, maybe the tiniest amount. And it was beautiful. And I went swimming and scuba diving, which I don't recommend. You know, it's like I want to be clear.

The way I lift my analysis is not what I think other people to be doing. But it was perfect for me. And I kind of reacquainted myself with that medicine in a way that I'm like, okay, we did the hard stuff at the high doses. Can we just like have a different friendship? Now, can we just like hang out? And like you don't have to show me everything. Like I'm good.

Yeah, I was blown away by, I think Patrick was the name of the gentleman that you had, that you had spent some time with when you're working with mushrooms and stuff. And I was blown away by some of those accounts, you know, when you were getting to build a relationship with me. I was wondering if you could share one of those stories about a time that you and Patrick had worked with the mushrooms together. Wow. I mean, it really, you know, meeting Patrick and having those experiences, and there were only actually three of them, but, you know, three mushroom experiences at those high doses is enough for her lifetime. The experience that stands out is the last one that I experienced where he had recently received a grizzly bear skull from the Pacific Northwest through his indigenous friends.

I don't even know how this school ended up in Manhattan. But when I walked into the room and I saw that skull there, I was like, oh, maybe I don't have a clue what this is about. Like, I thought this is about mushrooms and then the mushrooms kind of kept showing me other things. And now here we've got a grizzly bear skull. And in that experience, you know, it's hard to describe. I've done a lot of mushrooms before, but there's something about the ritual container and the way he would set up everything in the center of the room in a very kind of specific way with this little piece of blue felt that he called the altar. But the altar, you know, it was, as I say in the book, I thought it was going to be like a

Zen or like a, you know, a Catholic altar with like an actual table. But it wasn't. It was just on the floor. And you actually had to kneel down to be with it, which I think is important. You know, it's making you see that you're not this like important person. You're just on the ground. And at one point, in the middle of the. of the experience, the mushrooms took me to a place that was this kind of like a vast galaxy

that I had visited before, but I suddenly understood that they had been showing me my own self, like a part of myself or maybe a primordial self, something that wasn't like either before or after being human, but they were kind of like, we've been showing you this place and you thought you were just going to visit, but this is like, this is you. Like we've been trying to show you who you are. And luckily in that space, I could finally accept that without it being this like grandiose. Like, oh, I'm a galaxy. Can you imagine if they showed me that the first time?

I would have started a cult or something. I was like, you know, but instead they're like, we're going to test you with all of your worst autobiographical stuff. And then we're going to show you that you're a galaxy. So when I came out of that space, I understood that the bear skull. was a way of connecting with that galaxy, but like while staying here on Earth. And it's another rabbit hole to go down. But for any listeners, there's a whole thing about bear clans, bear cults, the great bear medicine, the dreaming bear.

People think that shamans learned originally from bears how to meditate and dream and how to go into these states of consciousness. So for this galaxy and the bear skull to finally be like, hey, like you're here thanks for coming it really felt like a moment of arrival you know i was no longer being initiated they were like okay you you've arrived like here we go yeah that's i've never thought about it from that angle but as you saying that a bear that goes into hibernation i mean it must be an altered state of consciousness at well right i mean that's like that's a deep meditation if you can just hang out for you know months on end in the in a quiet dark room under five drive grams i'm just kidding well think about it right they would go into a cave into the darkness and i'm

sure the early shamans were like wait how do they do that like where where do i have to take my mind to be at peace for that amount of time not needing food not meeting anything other than darkness so it makes sense and there's actually where i live now there's a mama bear that has come around a few times and i feel so lucky and when people are like oh do you have bears i'm like not enough Like I want more. I'm like, please spread the word. I want the bears to know I'm here. Is that what inspired that chapter?

Like I think it was chapter six or seven in the book. Is that what the name came from? Yeah. So Mama Bear, the actual chapter, Mama Bear was the final initiation before being like, not crowned, but like cloaked. You know, it's like I finally like took on that identity in that next chapter with with Patrick and my husband in the mushroom ceremony. But the Mama Bear chapter was like the final,

I don't know, it was like the final karmic release of like all of that old stuff that I attributed to like Catherine, my life, the people in my life, my family. I feel like that meditation retreat helped me discard all of that so that I could then accept that new mantle. And like outwardly nothing changed. Like, I'm still Catherine. You know, I still have a lot of her traits and characteristics, but it felt like during that Mama Bear chapter,

Catherine from the previous 36, 7 years was dying for good. And now we're kind of into the birthing phase. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Because in the beginning of the book, you know, there's a bit of foreshadowing where you talk about the idea of the midnight water break and a former teacher runs off and tries to get into her car. And then later in the book, all of a sudden,

here you are at this retreat and you're running off. You know what I mean? Congratulations. I hadn't made that connection yet. You know, it's so true. So when I met Joan Halifax, and Joan is a fascinating person. You know, she worked with LSD back in the probably early 70s,

late 60s with Stan Groff, and she worked with my mentor, Bill Richards. she says that when the civil rights movement really took off, she decided to be as clear and lucid as possible because she wanted to be a service. And so she kind of made that transition from like taking tons of LSD and studying it to being a Zen, one of the first, if not the first American Zen female teachers.

You know, it's like what she did was actually revolutionary. Right. And when I went on her retreat, it was because I had felt, totally insane for almost the whole year. And the teacher I was working with, I think, was getting exasperated. And he's like, you should go sit with Joan Halifax. Like if anyone can figure out what the hell is going on here, like, she'll be able to figure it out.

So it was on a whim. And I had never sat a full retreat like that before. And what I could say about Joe is she's like an expert in ceremony. And she really pulled everyone into almost like the mushroom altar. Her zendo was like the altar. You don't know it at first. You're kind of sitting, you're going through the motions. And then at some point, things kind of like how I talked about in the book, at some point,

the mushroom altar like reveals itself. And that happened to me on retreat with her. And after that switch, when I was in that psychedelic space, that's when she told this story where she was one of the very few white people who had ever been invited into a Native American church ceremony with peyote. And, you know, I know a few white people who've taken peyote, but you get invited. You don't just sign up. You don't, there's no like buying a ticket to a retreat.

And to be one of the only white people and still try to leave just like strikes me as so audacious. And it's like that she even considered that she could leave, I think speaks to our white privilege. You know, a lot of our privilege around like, oh, we'll just take what we. want and leave. And why is she telling a story about peyote on a Zen retreat to a bunch of Buddhists? And I felt like she's telling me. Like this is a story for me. She knows I'm never coming back to her retreat center. She's like, this is the last chance I've got. Maybe a few other people liked it. But I really resonated with the fact that she said she was in so much pain. Like I think pain can make people try to do things like break the rules, escape, run away.

Sure. And that the roadman found her. And it wasn't just, oh, I can't believe she left, let's move on. Like they literally couldn't continue without her presence. And so again, that speaks to like, as a white person, sometimes we think like we're special, we're individuals, and we don't understand that we're part of a collective. And he was showing her that.

He said, even with all your pain and your attitude, and your privilege and you're like feeling like you're above us, we need you back here so we can keep going. And he made her continue the ceremony. So, you know, flash forward a couple, several weeks to sitting with my sister. And she literally died right at midnight. And I don't say in the book, why, but the reason there were all these half full cups of water in the room

was because she kept asking for water, her whole last day. again as a materialist you might say oh she was just like her sodium levels were all off she was dying she was trying she was thirsty but she couldn't balance out the water but from a cosmic perspective it's like she was placing all of these water glasses around the room to to to initiate that ritual like here we go like we're going into this ceremony you know it started around seven or eight in the evening i think when she started her palliative sedation and she died at midnight. I saw all these, you know, half full cups of water. And like, it was like I was back in the zendo with Joan. And she was saying you can't leave the ceremony, like, no matter what you have to finish. And again, in that moment, I'm like, easy, right? Like, I just, I was full of the positive aspects of the mystical experience with being with my sister that I thought, that's easy.

Of course, I'll finish the ceremony. I had no idea how hard it was going to get. And so in a way, both my sister and Joan gave me what I needed in that moment to survive the next 10 years. Like, how did they know what was coming? I mean, Joan had been, Joan worked with dying people. She had been through grief. She understood. She was one of the few people actually emailing me back during the hospital vigil.

And, you know, she was with me. there's no way that any of us knew how hard grief could get and that there would be a reason to stay with it, right? Not just like cut it off, take some antidepressants, get back, you know, get back to work. There are ways to cut off grease. Sure. That's the same as leaving the ceremony, I think. That's well said. Yeah, I never thought about like that.

But that, you know, and it reminds me of another quote that the roadman said that was something along the lines, if you don't get to choose when the ceremony is over. I was like, whoa, that's pretty powerful. Right. And, you know, what you pointed out about the mama bear chapter is, so for Joan, it was her back pain. But, you know, she had gone blind as a kid. She had lost, I think her mom had died of alcoholism. Like, she had a pretty, like, traumatic history. And so maybe her back pain was just like the way she symbolized that reaching her limit. But for me, on the meditation retreat, it was the flashback memories to my childhood. The not just the what, the what, the, what. of it, but the feeling of it. I was re-feeling everything somatically in my body and being like, this is nuts. I don't want to feel this ever again. So isn't it interesting that as an adult, the only reasonable thing is to escape the situation, just to feel what we've already felt as children or as teenagers or as young adults. I mean, it really speaks to the kind of pain that a lot

of us have carried for so long, that when we're finally confronted with it, we're like, I'm out of here. Like, this is nuts. But there was nowhere to go. I couldn't drive. I was in the middle of nowhere. Like, I could have gotten lost. So thankfully, the setting was like the roadman being like, she's not going anywhere.

She'll be back. I did. I watched right back in, back down, and it was like, okay. I think when I hear that story and I pair it with some of the things we were previously talking about, you know, there's some of the things. something to be said about the container, like the rights, the ceremony, the ritual. And it seems like, you know, whether it is the altar from Patrick, whether it is being able to go back into the retreat and everyone is still on their pillow or whether it is sitting with your sister, you know, there's something to be said about that container. And it seems like in modern medicine today, there is no more rights. There's no more rituals. There's no more something that surrounds us. Does that seem accurate to you? It seems like that's lacking.

I saw what you're saying, you know, and as soon as you started saying that, I started thinking about the Hopkins session room and how the session room is like an altar. It is like one of those spaces, but around it is there's no cultural container for what is happening in that room. So the room works. So I know for sure the room works, and it functions in the same way as a zendo or as an altar or a temple or a church. But then just outside of that room, there's no continuity. And I remember when I was at Hopkins, like just trying to figure that out. Why is it that I can walk into a room and it's one way? And then I walk out of that room and it's something totally different.

And that's what made my mind like crack. You know, I don't like the term psychosis, but it's the closest we have. So what happens to me. And psychosis happens when you're confronted with two competing realities. And it's like they can't, they cannot exist together. So one, you know, one wins. And usually the mainstream consensus reality wins. And for some people, the other one wins for a time.

And no, I mean, this is, I, so I currently live on 120 acres of mostly forest. I have like a couple of humans, you know, within driving distance. But there's a reason that I chose to live this way. And it's because I can't control the container outside of my meditation room, my house. you know, even like my driveway, but the woods and the forest and the animals create a buffer to whatever goes on here. And I hope that more people can experience that here. I don't know when,

but at least for me now, I know that if I go into those spaces, I have that cultural container around me of wildness, of nature. And for a lot of people, I mean, they're doing this stuff in, you know, they're doing ayahuasca in Brooklyn.

Like, what is, I mean, how do you do that, you know? like how do you take it out of the jungle and say good luck like as soon as you step out of this door you're on the subway yeah it's you know it's interesting to think about that part of your life where all of a sudden you're introduced to what could theoretically be a dream job for so many

people you're like oh especially at the time you were doing it you're like whoa talk about like trend setting and pushing the boundaries of what is possible and then upon you know leaving you find yourself, in the book you had written something close to, I couldn't stand being in a place that seemed to care so little for human life, where the only point was working as hard as you could, bringing in as much research dollars as possible until you quote. I couldn't stomach giving people psilocybin and watching miracles happen against the backdrop of shooting deaths and abandoned building. It's like the same. It's so, that's mesmerizing to me. Yeah. And you know, there are, what I can say is there are probably more spiritually adept people who can do that.

And I knew that I couldn't. You know, there are plenty of people meditating in refugee camp, in situations like if you look at the Tibetan monks, the way they were tortured by the Chinese in the 50s and 60s. So clearly it's possible to hold that. But I was at the point that I was at, I didn't have a lineage. I didn't have teachers with me. I didn't have a community. So I was, was trying to gut it out on my own. And I think that's what the American Wild West Cowboy thing is. It doesn't work for enlightenment. It just doesn't work.

You can get to a certain point, you know, with all the brain hacking and psychedelics and all of that stuff. But at some point, and this is what a teacher said to me once, he said, the point isn't to, like, triumph over death. It's to get to a point where even if you died on that spot, you could completely surrender and you would trust whoever was around you or whatever was around you to take care of what was left, that you could just completely depart and that would be fine.

And he said it challenges our notion of like, at Hopkins, I was like the lone wolf, you know. It's like I was trying to do this thing that people had done before, but not that many and not that recently. And, you know, my other colleagues managed it the way they managed it, but I don't think a lot of them allowed themselves to surrender the way I was ultimately surrendered to the space of psilocybin. I love what Patrick said when you, after being in that state where you're finding out,

like, hey, maybe this, maybe it's a lot trickier than I thought. And like you said, you didn't have a lineage and you were beginning to see a lot of people that were kind of there for the money or they were very tunnel visioned in some ways. And you had met with Patrick. And Patrick said something to you that blew you away and it blew me away when I read the book. was you don't worship the same gods as them. Yeah. Well, and look, I mean,

uh, what just happened in Denver, Colorado, that 12,000 person cult church service, um, there it is. I do not worship that God. You know, it's like,

again, Patrick saw what was coming. You know, whether it was through the mushrooms or his own practice, he warned all of those researchers 10 years ago. If you don't focus on these indigenous practices, if you don't ask your elders, if you don't understand the rituals, this is going to get away from you and there's going to be harm. He warned them 10 years ago and now they would think

they've succeeded. Like, right, they win. They're right, but you're not right. You know, it's like, it's coming. And thank God for those protesters at the very end. I don't know if you were paying attention, but this indigenous folks with drumming and chanting and screaming interrupted the final speech at this psychedelic science conference. And one thing this one man said, he said just like with tobacco and coca and opium, he said these drugs were on our side because we respected them. We used them as medicine. We used the ritual. But then they turned on us because we abused them. And we decided how we were going to use these drugs to get high and get rich. And he said, do not be surprised if these medicines turn on you, just like those other medicines did.

He said, there's nothing special about tobacco or mushroom. It's just without the relationship and the ritual. It, you know, the human being can't dance in that space without help. You know, it's like we can't just own the space. Yeah, that's well said. I'll look into that. I didn't, I didn't see that part. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to exactly what was going on there.

But it makes sense when you start. reading some of the new studies that are coming out where they're trying to take the, you know, the difficult part out of the trip and just leave behind like the attenuation of, you know, it's like, what are you guys talking about? Right. But it makes sense, right. So someone asked me recently, they're like, all right, so you know that you went, quote, insane for seven or eight months in 2012 as a result of meditating.

I said, yeah. They said, so is that a risk? I said, you mean psychosis? Like, I don't know. what's the alternative risk, like being a workaholic, binge-streaking, dying of liver disease or cancer at 60? You know, so it's interesting how our culture has said this form of numbing out and abusing your body is okay, but this other form of challenge is not okay. And so when I hear that they want to come up with non-psychedelic, psychedelic drugs to cure people, all I hear

is like another way to numb people out. Another way to keep people from feeling what they're feeling so that they go to work every morning and they don't take more than a day off when their loved one dies and they just keep the system. It was actually Terrence McKenna who said this. Capitalism is a god and it's what's the term a moloch? Like a god that takes and takes and takes. It demands sacrifices. So we are worshipping a kind of God, collective. now and it's a god of money. And again, it's like, I know that those words sound really radical to some people, but I've been in the world of money.

I can see its power. I can see how people worship it. It does a lot for you. But, you know, it's like, what's that transaction? And would you rather be working with the mushrooms instead or like working with a God that actually cares about you a little bit or is going to kind of help you along? The money is not going to do that. Yeah.

And there's a discount rate on. that money, God. Like the older you get, the more you realize, the less it's worth. No matter how much you have it. I can't spend all this. Oh my God. This, fuck God took everything from me. My wife, my kid, right? Like, it's worth less. And I, so here's a question. Is it a psychosis that you went through? Or is it breaking out of the world and understanding, holy crap, I've been lying to my whole life. Everybody I know has lied to me. Well, I think it's the latter. But when I remember, when Roland was presenting his psilocybin findings in the psych department, the psychiatry department. And this one of the old school psychiatrists said, we used to have people showing up here

with cosmic consciousness in quotes. He said, no, it's mania, it's psychosis, it's grandiose delusions. So when I use the word psychosis, I'm purposely using the language of that capitalist system so that people understand, like, I'm not putting rose-colored glasses on this. Like what I went through was terrifying. And there were times, I mean, if I had had to be a mom during that year, it would have been really scary. I would have lost my children probably. They would have had to go live with somebody else. Like I would have been impatient in a hospital.

But instead, it was just me. So I could just keep letting go and doing that practice the way that my meditation teacher taught me. But, you know, most people don't want to wake up that way. Right. You know, it's like you do have to play with fire for a certain amount of time. until you can walk across the cold. And you cannot prepare someone for what that fire is going to look like to them. So for another person, it might look like a good friend of mine who's an elder.

He said when he was in his either 40s or 50s, he was wealthy, he was traveling the world, going to parties, he had life. And then one thing after another took all of his financial wealth away from him. So to him, that was death. I think to me, like losing my mind was death. So it's like for each person, you get the form of break that will make you make that shift or succumb to, you know, being totally without a home on the street or being, you know, mentally ill because that's how we don't take care of people when they go through that. You know, those are the kind of two examples. I don't know.

I mean, I guess if you were living in a village where people are like, oh, yes, this happens sometimes. And that's her year to go through this. So we're just going to make sure someone takes care of her and takes care of her family. And she'll eventually get through it. But I felt that maybe the actual perceived risk of it to me made me want to get through it faster. Like it wasn't comfortable. I didn't know what was going to happen. Yeah.

On some level, do you think that it was necessary? Like, I mean, was it one of the, it seems like, I can see how it would be one of the biggest life-changing growth experiences in your life. Yeah, I mean, you know, I talk about it a little bit in the book, but the thing that I want to kind of clarify here is that the year leading up to that annihilation experience, I really was overworking myself. I really was. I was working through sickness.

My back was killing me every day. I really believe that if I got enough papers published in certain journals that I would finally have value, like I would have a rise. I had fully committed to that totally fabricated materialist reality. And so was it necessary? I mean, some people don't have the break. They just keep succeeding and succeeding. I don't know. I mean, if we track some of these people, what does it look like when they're on their death?

bed. I mean, you know, the closest example I have is my dad, but at least he woke up maybe five years before he died because he lost his daughter. You know, he got cancer. So thank God he had five years to wake up. You know, what does it look like if you just push the thing all the way to the very end and then you're on your deathbed and you're like, oh shit. You know, so I I'm happy it happened. Like, thank God. I don't know what the alternative would have been like. And, you know, I probably would have been at that huge conference in Denver thinking I had made it and still feeling like that pit in my stomach. Like, what's missing? What did I, what did I miss? You might have, you might have just taken over for Roland Griffith for Dr. Roland Griffith. Right. I mean, yeah. So isn't that fascinating?

I mean, like right now, and that's also the synchronicity of it, that my book is coming out the same season, the same summer that my mentor is probably going to die. I mean, he's been dying for the last year. and the person that I hired to take over for me is now that it's taking over for him. So I literally extricated myself from the legacy. You know, it's like the kingly progression was there. And I was just like, whoop. Yeah.

I'm just going to like surgically extract myself and like replace myself with the next in line. It's like Krishna-Murdy in some ways. You see the spiritual angles right there. You know what I mean? It's so interesting to get to read First off, thanks for being so honest in the book. It's probably hard to be pretty vulnerable at times to put yourself out there.

But it's a fascinating relationship you had with your dad and to see some of the traits in yourself and to see your father, who was this very successful corporate lawyer, and then for you to be so honest about how you see the world of corporations. Like that's a very, a lot of moving parts in there. Yeah. No, and I, you know, the interesting thing, too, about my dad, and I touched on this a little bit, But, you know, he was a rebel when he was a teenager and in his 20s. He was more like my sister.

It was like he was like my sister and me mixed together. And he did his on the road thing. He did his hippie traveling, you know, hitchhiking across the country thing. He did probably, who knows how much acid. He listened to the Grateful Dead. So in a way, I think my battle with capitalism is still his battle. It's like he just kind of passed the torch. And in a way, it's like he was.

actually quite a genius about it. It's like, here's this system we can't beat. So I'm going to win in the system and then pass the torch to the next person who they might get a chance to beat the system. You know, so if he had just done, you know, fuck all at 22. Yeah. I wouldn't get this opportunity to now tell the whole world about the very thing that he also knew the secret of, is psychedelic secret. And it's an open secret now, you know, but it's interesting when you look back over generations. And the people who came before did what they had to or could to kind of pass that torch so that now I can write a book like this that's so vulnerable and will actually be read and not just like a weird cult, you know, like, oh, that's so strange. Like, what's she up to? But yeah, I mean, my dad thrived in the corporate world. He loved it, you know, and so did my sister. So I don't knock people whose lives feel really good in that space. You know, and know, I just kind of want them to remember that it's just, it's a bit of a charade. Like, enjoy the circus.

Be a good trapeze performer, but like you're still performing. Like, and just remember, you can set it aside anytime you want and just step away. That's all. Yeah. I think that's hard for a lot of people. And I think psychedelics offer you a quick, you know, water break, if you will, because it's so easy to become your identity. I am George, the corporate attorney.

I am George the truck driver. I am George the stay-at-home dad. Like, I'm, you know, I'm all these things. But we get so caught up in that identity. We really forget about all our other connections. Right. No, I mean, people are surprised when they meet me and they're like, oh, you ran track. Yeah.

I was like, yeah, I was an athlete. And they're like, that's interesting. Like, you're also a psychedelic person and an academic and a mom. And I'm like, I actually, like, at my root, I identify the most with being an athlete. And, you know, so it's just, you know, So what, is it Walt Whitman? I contain multitudes. Yeah.

You know, so it's like, in a way, it's like I think psychedelics help all of us feel at peace with all of ourselves. You know, we may, we may still choose what self we want to be kind of running the show for a period of time. But, you know, the other cells don't go away. They're just kind of like in the background. And so that self who was really struggling for a lot of years, I mean, she's still there. you know, maybe given the right circumstances or wrong circumstances, she'll come back again and be like,

oh, my God, life sucks, you know, I don't want to be here. And I'll be like, hey, I remember you. We went through this before. It'll pass, like, you know, and then kind of that balancing act. But I think to most people who just know that they have one identity and they like go to work and take care of their family and they, you know, they have a bank account and saving, this can sound really scary. It's like it sounds schizophrenic. Like, what do you mean I have other selves? I don't want other selves. Yeah. What if they're crazy, you know? What if they tell me to quit my job? You know, the study coordinator at Hopkins just told me recently that we had a really funny back and forth where she said there was a chemical weapons developer, like a young guy who was on a

study back when I was there. And he just finished his PhD, but in like another area. And I said, oh, I remember that guy. Didn't he also teach yoga in Thailand? And she goes, no, no, no. There were two weapons manufacturing people who the mushroom successfully told them to leave their job. So it's like, we were joking. I was like, two for two. We got two people out of the Department of Defense after suicide.

And again, that's what the government is worried about. They don't want all these young people realizing like, hmm, I could teach yoga. I could, like, learn about philosophy. Like, I don't want to go figure out how to kill people. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there's tons of papers about how to weaponize psychedelics to how people get rid of fear so they can just go murder more people, you know, or get in the machine over here. Come on in.

It's the new one. You know, it's, you know what? It brings me to this other way. Yeah, that's such an interesting idea. Yeah, of course they will be used that way, right? Without a doubt. And then we'll just have to wake up to that new brainwashing. It's like it's always like the, yeah, like what's the move?

Like, what's the move of the system to try to. make itself relevant. And so now it's like, oh, shoot, we have to make ourselves relevant through Sigadelic. So instead we'll come up with bots who like train people to, you know, say they're not depressed anymore, but not have any of the other insights. Yeah. Okay. Think about that. Like if you look at the way, like if you look at Denver or you look at where all the money is, you know, they're frantically trying to weaponize fragility in a way that's like, okay, you can use this but for mental health because you have a problem and you have to come and it's going to be $25,000 and you can have this microdose.

And then you can have a Dr. Pepper on the way out. You know what I mean? Like it's like the, I don't know, the McDonald's of transformation, right? Right. And, you know, it's like they, I think they tried to do that with mindfulness. And then the thing with mindfulness is like the uptake was so poor. You know, people are like, I don't even want to meditate 10 minutes a day, you know. It's like they couldn't get the dose right to get people even to that level that it was going to.

But, you know, with psychedelics, I think. I mean, I only have two major fears. And I've kind of made peace with one of them, which is that everyone I talk to, friends, family, loved ones, whoever, I just say, unless you absolutely have to and your life depends on it, do not walk into a psychedelic clinic. Do not give them any of your money. Do not give them any of your health data. Do not trust these strangers with your mind. Like find any other way possible that's still safe if you feel like you have to have this experience. So that's like, and yeah, I mean, people may think that that's your response.

but that's just where I stand. I think the risks are too great. And we can't even, you know, it was Dick Cheney, the unknown unknown? Yeah. You don't even know the risk. So, and the second part of it is, well, what if we run out of the drugs? And I haven't figured that part out. So I still sit with that fear of like what happens if there's a day when the penalties

against growing mushrooms are so steep that you have, the only way to have a psilocybin experience is to go into that clinic and how scary that would be. Like how dystopian. But I see it coming. I don't know how soon, but I see a future where the underground accessibility of psychedelics is truly dangerous because of what people are risking and that they'll kind of funnel us all into that system.

And again, so I just say it out loud now so that people start thinking, like what would an alternative look like? I mean, maybe the Earth won't even make it that long, at least humans on Earth. Yeah. It's interesting. because when you say it like that, I think of Aldous Huxley, and I think of like his suite of creative memoirs that were left to us. And if you look at the way in which he wrote books,

it's almost like he was writing them with his relationship with psychedelics, whether it was the perennial philosophy or at least to the doors of perception that leads to the brave new world, which leads to the island. And I think we're on the cusp of that. Are we moving into brave new world or can it be the island? Because there is a relationship with both of them. If we look at the world of production that wants to find ways to reward the alphas and the betas and the gammas. And then you have this other world like the island that he wrote where there's this kids are going at the age, you know, I don't know, at 14 and they're going with a mentor to meditate at a church on a mountaintop and take psychedelics for the first time.

You know, it's just it's almost like he kind of gave us like this choose your own adventure, you know. I don't know. Do you think we're going to do with a brave new world? Yeah, right? It makes me want to read both again. And especially the island because in a way, so I live in Vermont. And Vermont is a green oasis, kind of like an island. And it's one of the few places where like cannabis marketing never took hold because you can't have billboards.

There's no highways. You know, they actually legalize grow your own first. Fully legalized it, not just decriminalized it. So we're actually, there are really good conversations happening right now with the state. legislature about what would it look like to make mushrooms like cannabis. So we start with the home. People can grow, they can share it, they can use it. And then once we've seen how that goes and people are educated of it, then maybe

we'll get a handful of money making enterprises set up shop, but not first. And so, yeah, I guess I want Vermont to be like the island. I want it to be like a refuge from the options that are available in. in New York, in Denver, in Oregon, who knows where. Is that utopian? That means it's idealistic. It's a little bit unfathomable. But if it can happen anywhere, I think it's probably in a state like this where people are

open-minded, but they're not, they're not like extremists. They're just kind of like, everyone should be able to live the life they want to live. And we have more trees than people. So like, we can manage the risks. It's like, even if something bad happens, you know, you're at a, you're at your home. home and you're not going to run into another human being as soon as you step out of the door. You know, the possibilities for those kind of risky interactions are reduced. Yeah, it's interesting that we look at it from that angle.

If we look at sort of the hotbeds at it. And I think that ties another thing, that ties into something else that Patrick said that I had to set the book down for a minute. And that was you can't commodify the sacred. I guess, I mean, look what's happening. I mean, if you look at what happened to cannabis, and if you look at, even if you do attempt to do commodify the sacred, then we run into what the protesters were saying about. Yeah, you're going to abuse those. They're going to abuse you back. It's a powerful statement. Right. Like the tobacco. So, you know, tobacco, as I talk about in the book, it's actually funny. It's like one of the, it was one of the harder things to be vulnerable about because our culture is so, this is a stigma around cigarettes, you know. How dare you smoke cigarettes. I know, right? And, you know, they're, and like, also, how strange that tobacco as a medicine was reaching out to me from the time of the child through my dad. You know, it was like this thing that said, hey, I'm here.

I'm going to pacify the monster for a little bit. And like everyone's going to chill out. You're going to have a fun time. I mean, that was the spirit of tobacco. It was a sacred presence in my life. And if I had just bought like capitalist propaganda about like cigarettes are going to kill you, it's like, well, they might. But also the spirit of tobacco, I can ask for its health.

And toward the end, you know, I was like asking that spirit. I said, is it possible? Do we still have a relationship if I'm not smoking cigarettes? And the tobacco was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if that works. Like it hadn't considered it before. So again, it's like I see that there is a way to still have relationship with these old spirits. And call them what you want.

I use the word spirit. I know that sounds like foolish to some people. But, you know, the essence of something. You know, if you imagine, like, what's the essence of water before we were putting all this chlorine into it? Or, like, what's the essence of the air before we were polluting it? Like, can we still find that and ask it questions? I think we can. Yeah.

Yeah, tobacco, yeah, it was commodified and it started killing people. But if you ask, you know, my friends in Nepal, like, their elders are not dying of lung cancer from being around smoke all the time. How does that work? how are they not getting lung cancer? It's not just about organic, you know, organic material. There's something else going on there. Yeah, I've, I'm so stoked to live in Hawaii because, like, everything grows here. And I have, like, the most beautiful garden with some of the most beautiful friends I've ever met.

And I sit and I talk to him. I found that I can grow a certain type of tobacco and just chew the leaves. And it's just like, all of a sudden I got this clear conscience and I'm talking to myself. And my kids, like, who are you talking to? dad, I'm like, oh, I'm talking to tobacco over here, you know. But it's amazing. The relationship that you can build with the plants in your environment when you start growing them and I'm kind of going off on a tangent.

But I love the relationship. Oh, it's not a tangent at all. And I do feel like maybe one of the undercurrents of the book is also how we like shame people for the drugs they choose and how I forget if I actually included this scene in the last book. I don't think in the last version of it, but there was a scene in the hospital where my dad had just come out of the first brain surgery. And these, like, really asshole doctors were, like, asking him how many cigarettes he'd smoked

in his life or, like, how many years he'd smoked? And I'm like, enough. The man has brain cancer. He smoked enough. Why do you need to make him feel ashamed right now and have to say out loud, 45 fucking years or whatever it was? And I just, I feel like that's also where I get very defensive. It's like, you know, if someone wants to smoke cigarettes their whole life and die of lung cancer, so be it.

You know, and was it better that he also was able to quit for some amount of time at the end? Yeah, that was beneficial to the people around him. But none of just, like, shaming people about the drugs that help them, you know, because we don't, we assume the alternative is better. But as I say in the book, it's like, maybe he needed to be less angry at the end. And if he could have just smoked a little bit, he would have been less angry. Yeah, like, you know, it reminds me it. In a lot of ways, your book is like a love story. You know, you talk a lot about your relationship with your sister and your relationship with your dad.

And, you know, I love, like, what you just said right now reminds me of the, towards the end of the book where like your dad gets up and walks out and is like, I'm not going to do this anymore. You know, like, it was such like a rock star move. Like, it's just like you're just like you tell them those, fuck off. answer that. Like, I love that spirit that is hiding in so many people. And I think that that is the love for ourselves that allows us to stand up and just say what's on our, goddamn I am I? No, I'm not going to do it. This is wrong. I'm walking away. There's something so beautiful about that. Yeah. And I mean, I love that you also said rock star because it's like my dad had that, you know, being a trial lawyer, but also being in theater and an actor and a musician, like,

he literally couldn't walk that day. But he managed to pull this off and like literally, literally, walk out the room. And I think that for, you know, for a lot of people, oh, I'm about to say something a little bit strange. The younger that you die, the more you're able to die as yourself for a lot of people. And what I would love is that people get longer, healthier lives, and they still get to die as themselves, true to themselves, not a shell of themselves, not a placated, numbed out, you know, apologetic, ashamed person who is like, oh, well, gold star, I made it to 90, but I'm fucking miserable. And like, I don't know who I even was 20 years ago.

So, you know, it's a controversial idea, but like how can we find that balance for people where they can live the life they want in as healthy and awesome way as they can? And then they don't live any more than they need to into those years that they may be losing who they are. And I mean, you can imagine where my mind is going. But like, as you can imagine, I'm a fan of euthanasia. Like, it doesn't scare me at all. But that's like about choice.

I think that people, we all get one life for sure. We might get more, but we definitely get one. Yeah. It's so, I'm not even profane is not even the right word, but we take the dignity out of dying. In some ways, we commodify at the end of life so that you can put someone on a machine. And they're just, you know, I watched my great grandma, my grandma, just not even there.

Just, they were just, they were alive because of a machine. And they were alive for a year or two years because of that. It's like, what the fuck are we doing? Like, this is, this is morbid. Like, this is ridiculous. You know, it's crazy to think about that. Right. And you've got, you've got very religious and very well-intentioned people on the side of extending

life. And then once, but once you've seen it up close, you're like, this is not, this is not a kind thing to do. This is not a loving thing to do. This is not like a godly thing to do. Yeah, it's selfish. And, you know, I forget if I've had this price tag in the book, but it was my sister's insurance spent $10,000 a day while she was in the ICU. And it wasn't $10,000 a day for my dad to stay at home.

It was less than that. It was still expensive. But couldn't we just get the insurance companies to realize that they can get paid just as much for people to be at home, having an awesome. from death than to be stuck in a hospital. Not until we make the hospital less profitable, right? It's like as long as a hospital is the place where they're going to make the less money off your body, that's where people are going to stay and that's where

they're going to die unless you have to, I mean, the antics I pulled to get my dad out of the hospital as a 66-year-old man with, you know, terminal brain cancer. Right. Why was I fighting the doctors to bring him home? It's absurd. And I think that until you've gone through it, people think, think, oh, like, I have my, you know, I have my living will. I have my health advocate.

Like, good luck. You have to go to battle with these systems to get what you want. Yeah, it's another great part of the book. You know, I think that you, at least for me, and I think that anybody else will read it. Like, I'm so stoked that I got to read not only what you did, but the advice you got from your friend about how to get the pallet of care. Like, that's a beautiful gem that you've given to. people right. Thank you for that. That's the kind of thing to have been told that, but maybe I'm the

first person to have told everybody else. I mean, that's the thing. My friends like to joke. They're like, it's not even like you're saying anything new. You're just saying it. And people are like, how dare you just say this thing out loud? It's like, well, sorry, I don't believe in secrets. Like, you know, as soon as I learned something and a friend of mine was the one who had to tell me, not the doctors, not anyone in the hospital. And, you know, you talked about the humor in the beginning, but that was a very humorous moment, right? It's like, she, you know, my sister wanted, she said very clearly, why am I still alive? What the fuck is going on?

This is tortured. Can you just kill me already? Like, you know, in not so many words. And then once we realized there was a way for her to die quicker and without as much pain, she was like, come on then. Like either save my life or like end the misery, you know? And so once we figured that out and I talked about it in the book, how it was me, and her husband, who was a football coach, like a football play.

You know, it's like, you know, the nurse would come in and be, and she'd be like, oh, how is she? And you don't say fine. You say, well, she seems like she's struggling to breathe a little bit. Or she looks like she's in pain and then they up the morphine. And as long as you play the game, they will up the morphine. Because they, and they know what's going on. Right.

But it's like the whole system has to pretend that we're not actively killing people or actively trying to prevent, you know, a torturous death. It's like, so it was just interesting for me to kind of be playing that game. And then I say at one point, my dad was in the room and he said, oh, she's fine. And we're like, no, fine. But that's not what we're doing here, Richard, you know. But on the flip side of that, my dad didn't need any pain medication at all. It's really interesting.

Once he was home and he had what he needed and wanted, he didn't have pain. So isn't that fascinating? My sister needed an overdose of morphine to survive the pain of the ICU. But my dad needed barely like a tiniest little liquid morphine under his tongue at the end. And so that, I think, speaks to what pain is really about. I think pain is fear. Like pain is real, but pain is also magnified by fear. Sure.

You know, something you're, I mean this in the most possible. respectful way, but was it something like this? So awesome! I know. That's so cool. Thank you for that. That's really cool. If you want to know what we're talking about, I've got to read the book, everybody.

Okay, that's in there. It's what everybody to know about it, you know? It's super cool. There was another part where I, here's something maybe we can do together on the podcast. For anybody watching this podcast or listening to this podcast, Dr. Catherine has taped up a fortune cookie for. fortune somewhere on a mushroom statue. If anybody can show that to us, I'll send them an ounce of mushrooms as soon as they show me proof of it.

You think it was ever going to find that particular fortune cookie mounted up? I mean, it would take someone who still has access to the Hopkins session room. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have access, find that mushroom statue and look for that particular fortune. It's going to be a good trip or something along those lines, right? Yeah, you will have a pleasant trip. that's such an awesome story there's so many and for those watching or listening to this there's so many of these these little like easter eggs that are in there where you just sit the book down and start laughing and be like man i wish i was smoking a fat joint with dr catherine right now and talking about all this stuff because this is awesome

you know it's i mean i had i had a blast i mean you know it's once you're it's like any trip right like once you're on the other side of it yeah it's all great and funny And so if you interviewed me, you know, at the bottom of the, you know, trough of 2018, you know, when I talk about like in the immunity chapter, like literally like every single thing the universe could throw at me. And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. How bad can this get? And then to come out of that, I think is like a trip, you know? It's like you reach that point where you're like, as Bill Richards used to say, like you throw the boomerang. And when you're at the very farthest point, you're like, I'm, I'm toast. I'm out of here.

Like, I'm never coming back. This is it. And then it starts to curve back around. And so I've written a book like that, but my life did also follow that arc. You know, it's like just a narrative method I used. You know, it really did go as far as possible beyond what I could have imagined to come back around and to find myself kind of like, here I am. at home, living a normal life as a mom with two little kids, you know, it's like things are pretty normal now. It doesn't mean that I didn't go on the heroine or hero's journey.

Yeah. But it's all kind of like a very happy, distant memory now. And even better so that I've written it down, but I don't forget it. Well, even better you written it down so you can share it. You know, sometimes I think at certain points of our life, and I love the idea of the boomerang. I've never heard that before. But, you know, at some point in time, our actions become our stories. And the stories are told by the elders, sometimes in training so that they can become guidepost or they can become the light that guides the way for the next boomer ring or for the technique to throw the boomerang. You know, so I get goosebumps. Have you thought about that transition?

Like, hey, you are on this other swing now. Now you're kind of becoming the elder. You're becoming the storyteller. How do you feel about that? I mean, it feels great. I don't, I think that the only thing I've told people is I'm not going to fit for people until I'm much older. You know, it's like I'm very happy.

Right. I have what's called, you know, people talk about FOMO, fear of missing out. I have Lomo, love of missing out. That's so awesome. When people come to me and they're like, how can I, how can I get to where you are? It's like, well, that's why I wrote the book. Not to be you could do what I did, but you could see that there is an alternate model. And no one in these clinics is going to tell you this is going to take 10 years to integrate.

No one is going to be honest with you. So at least my book is saying that. It can take 10 years. You know, and I was 30 when I first started asking these hard questions. So really, it was 40 years, you know. And it's like if people can start asking these questions when in a safe way in a, in whatever like, you know, guided and careful way they can at a younger age, instead of recreationally binging on all these drugs, you know, at 20. It's like start in a very intentional way, then maybe you get to have a

great life starting at 25. You know, it's like, I don't think, I think it would be too much to ask for our culture to give people great childhood and teenage years. I hate to say it. It's like, our culture's so messed up. But it's like, once you're out of the house and you can start thinking for yourself kind of college years, I think that's, I think that's, when I would love for people to pick up my book, read it and be like, oh, there's a different method here. There's a different way of approaching my life. And I don't have to wait until I'm older to kind of turn that switch. Yeah, I love that. And I'm hopeful that the same thing can happen. I, you know, it brings up a question, though. Doesn't it seem like all the tragedies in

our life are forcing us to ask these difficult questions? And when you ignore them, the tragedies seem to get worse. Have you thought about it from that angle? Yeah, no, mine definitely did. You know, but I have met people and they do exist that don't have tragedy in their life. It doesn't. It's true. I don't know. Is that true?

Yeah, no. Some people have very, like, kind of steady lives and, you know, like, good for them. Like, again, I kind of, I'm not so sure about other lives. I believe I'm going to continue on in some form. I'm pretty sure I've had other lives before this one. But at least in Buddhism, they would say sometimes you just have one of those like softball life events. You know, it's just like you're just here and you're living. And it's not the lifetime where you're going to get enlightened or try psychedelics or, you know, have all of the tragedies that you have to navigate.

Maybe this is just the like cruise. And so if you're in a life and you're cruising and everything's great, don't take mushrooms. Like, God, please, just don't. There's no need, you know? It's like, really. I mean, these medicines are like, you know if you need them. And there's no need to just create disruption and chaos in your life just to try something out. Yeah.

That's interesting to see it from that angle and take a step back like that. Yeah. Sometimes when we talk about tragedies and psychedelics, you know, I was. it's interesting how sometimes it allows you to create this new understanding or relationship with like the divine. And it seemed to me throughout the book, like your sister was still, like you were still having a full relationship with your sister. Like when you go to London and all of a sudden, there's the Rebecca house. Like I don't believe in coincidences like that. Like that's, that's something bigger than we have language for, right?

Yeah. There was the Rebecca house. You know, she appeared to be in this particular way in the hospital. I mean, it's kind of like a, it's one of the earliest reveals of the book, but, you know, the picture of Ganesh is on the cover. And the not only Ganesh, but the symbol of the elephant kept appearing, and it still appears for me in my life. It appeared on that meditation retreat. Shortly before my dad got, shortly before his lung cancer spread to his brain, he went to Africa and like went to an elephant sanctuary. And he said it was the first time on the plane ride.

to Kenya that he had a dream of my sister. So she hadn't visited him at all, but like she was like, okay, like I see you putting in the effort now. I see you stepping out of your comfort zone. So like, okay, I'm going to show up. And at some point, and I do think I edited this out because I didn't want to freak people out, but I said at some point like the ancestors demand sacrifices. And I didn't mean like actual sacrifices.

But if they want to test you and see like, are you serious about this? Like you can't just like call me from this. existence that I'm in to like come help you for any stupid little reason. But like if I see that you're really putting in the effort, okay, I'll show up. And the one time that happened was the middle chapter is that I actually love it. It's called happy happy. And it's about the it's the it's the one where my husband is depressed and he's trying to cure his depression and I'm smoking all these cigarettes. And out of nowhere, you know, my dad comes as like, you know, the same.

And it was that wake-up moment of like, oh, look at us. Like, we're just like struggling imperfect people too. And like, here's this guy who's going to come help. But at the end of that chapter, the part that I edited out was the night after I got back to my dad's house with my daughter. And I was like, oh, I survived. I had the most brilliant dream of my sister. And she was in this like spaceship hovering over Manhattan over the East River.

And she had invited me into her like cosmic living room. And I was like, whoa, is this how you're like hanging out now? This is amazing. And she was like, yeah, you like my dig? I feel like that happened after that horrendous experience of just like, I don't think I'm going to survive this, like another low point. And so in a way, I feel like my sister would show up like after she saw that I was like, had made it through.

And she's like, all right, I'm going to reward that. Like now we get to hang out for like five minutes, you know. And it happened a few other times in the book that I did leave in the book. And so I hope people appreciate it. And, you know, if they think I just have a wild imagination, great. But, like, I can tell you, man, this stuff is real. Like, I hope it starts happening to people once they read the book. So they just, like, tune the frequency a little bit different.

I like that idea of tuning the frequency different. I, you know, I think that most people who had a really tender relationship with someone they love or that loved them, they have felt or seen things that are just completely unexplained. and sometimes it's just a feeling, you know, and that's enough, though, for you to fundamentally change your relationship with spirituality or, you know, whatever you want to call it. It's interesting. Was it, was there a fundamental shift after you lost your sister with, like your relationship with spirituality after you lost your sister and then after you lost your dad, did one prepare

you for the other or did one deepen the other? Did anything change there? well you know right after my sister died I remember my dad said something very oh because he got lung cancer within a year year and a half it was probably just about a year after she died and I remember him saying to me at least she showed me how to do it right and I in a way it was like kind of a shocking thing to say because I was at that point at least still like furious with him. You know, I was still blaming him for everything. And I was like, it's your fucking genes that killed her, you know, as if like, you know, that was his choice. I mean,

I want the reader to appreciate how immature and rageful I was, you know, but when he said, at least she showed me how to do it, I remember going to Patrick and saying, like, my dad's such an asshole. Like, he's using Rebecca's death as like a guidebook, you know, like, that's the most selfish thing ever. And Patrick's like, who did he say that to? And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, who did he say she showed me how to do it? I was like, me. He's like, right. Who guided your sister through death? And I was like, oh, me.

He's like, yeah. So like, in your dad's limited way, he's like, can you help me do this? Like, he can't ask for help. So instead he's like saying it as a statement. So, yeah. So I think I forget where we were going with this. But, you know, did it prepare me? Yes.

And then at the, at the, what I'm looking toward now is even more mysterious. Right? Because like clearly those two deaths prepared me for my own death. And I feel like it's like a long ways off. But my question now is like, okay, universe, what am I here to do? Like how am I going to use what they taught me to not just live a happy life and then die a good death? I know how to do that. Like I've got it, you know, but what can I do in the interim? And especially with my dad, I regretted I wasn't there when he died.

And so I kind of look at that question at the end is like, do you have to be with the person? What's different when you're with the person? And we can convince ourselves it doesn't matter. But like if you're the one dying, it does matter who's there. And so if you have the opportunity to be there for your for your loved one, go, be there. Don't think you're going to get back in time. Don't think, you know, it doesn't matter because they're already on the other side. Like the real thing I felt at the end was an affirmation that's like it matters.

matter that I was with my sister. And it felt like my dad was saying, like, don't underestimate how important it is. So, you know, what's happening around the dying person? You know, don't, like, don't reduce that to something like, oh, they'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah, it's so, you know, I was speaking with a death dula not too long ago, and she was telling me something similar where she had found herself in hospice care and holding the hands of people who were taking their last breath.

And sometimes in that last breath, she could see like their unrealized dreams. That last moment was, it was like a psychedelic time dilation where, you know, a minute seemed like an hour. But some of the insights that she got from just sitting with these people, I was like, maybe cry. I was like, oh, my gosh.

And then it just brings it all back when you start talking about, you know, especially I've read the book. So I, you know, I know the last conversation that happened. And then I know what your friend told you later. Like, look at all these. You know, look at all these. things. And so it's interesting to get to hear your voice after reading that and see your reflection. And that's why I'd ask the question about spirituality. And I think it's important to note, too,

that one of the first thoughts you had after your sister passed away is that you're here to help people die. Yeah. And I mean, to be honest, I have, I've tried. So I tried to volunteer for hospice. Every time I kept trying to put myself out there at death, death kept kind of being like, like let's let's focus on your your first relationship with with your own relationship to death and then you can go practice this with other people so in a way i feel like death was also a guide and kept showing me like if you haven't and i don't i mean there i'm sure there are very like lovely palliative care doctors and death doulas who are in their 20s but i feel like when you're dying you can smell the bullshit it's like you can tell when someone is just phoning it in

or doing a job. And it's like you want someone with you who knows that space of death. So I want to know that someone has lost someone. I want to know that they've survived something really hard. I want to know and feel in that moment that authentically they understand the precipice that you're on. And so in a way, I feel like I tried to jump the gun of it, like with the psychedelic hospice in the Isle of Man or like, oh, this is my ticket. I'm going to be a guide. I'm going to do this.

I'm going to do that. It's like, what about I'm still afraid of death? And if I'm still afraid, how am I going to help other people? Because they're going to feel that on me. And that's the worst thing in the world. Can you imagine being in the room with someone who's afraid of death? And you're like, I'm doing this and you're making me scared about it. You know?

No, it's changed my spirituality a little bit, I think, for the better. So I think I used to have a very, like, outward direction. Like, what can I do to help other people? And right now I'm in a space that it's like, it's okay. to kind of take care of myself in my like very small circle and that that too is preparing me to do this great work in the world and obviously i didn't just sit back i wrote a fucking book you know so it's like i wanted something to be out there to start teaching people but um yeah i mean i'm looking out at these trees now and it's like i hope a lot of people get to die looking at these

trees i don't know when i don't know how but why i got this land you know it's like not just for me to have a good death. Right. Yeah, it's how did, sometimes when we're, when we're close to death that we see people that we love pass away, it kind of brings like a new zest for life. Is that, is that, is that something that you felt too after, I mean, was that part of writing the book? Was that part of giving back? Was that part of helping their memories be born? Was it all of that? I certainly think that my dad's death gave me an inspiration. an energy to get through what I call the labyrinth of writing the book. And it did almost kill me.

I mean, you could hear it in my voice now, but there were times in the past couple of years that I had pneumonia, I had bronchitis, I had all of this stuff related to the telling of this story. And so I think without that inspiration, it would have just been something that stayed on my laptop or stayed in a journal or never got published or maybe just published a few hundred copies and shared it with my friends. And I know there are a lot of books out there and there are a lot of writers. And I want people to understand that certain books take every single thing a writer has.

And that's what Midnight Water was. And so, you know, if I never write another book again, I will die happy. Like that's the kind of piece of art this is. And I hope to write more. But, yeah, I think. A lot of times I called on my dad and was like, you, first of all, you've initiated me into this labyrinth in so many ways that the reader will get to learn about when they read it. So like you now have to walk in and out of this labyrinth as many times as it takes for me to get out again. You know, so it's like I put him to work and I say that in the book that it's like, it was hard for me to ask my dad for help in life or like admit that I needed his help.

But once he was dead, I was like, all right, I'm putting you to work. You know, it's like, I need help. This person needs help. Come on, Richard, get on it. You're a genius. You know how to get into a courtroom and make something happen. So like, figure this out for this person. And he's pretty much always come through in very surprising ways.

I can share some of the ways, but I don't know if people need to read the book to understand what kind of person he was. Like, he's really a magic maker now that he's not in his body anymore. Yeah, sometimes it seems that it lends credence to, you know, Maybe we're here to become something different. You know, like prior to our conversation, we said, I was telling you that in Hawaii we have this saying that says we're all ancestors in training. Maybe you can't fully unlock all the magic you have inside of you or be able to relinquish the gifts you have to give to people until you live a full life.

And you move on to that next world, right? Well, yeah. So if we think about that, I mean, being an ancestor is awesome. That's what Native people say. They're like, thank God. Like I want to be an elder because that's one step closer to dancing in the stars, you know, and having that perspective, which interestingly, the book ends in that kind of ancestor space of death. But it begins there, too, because the mushrooms were the first portal to, at some point I described the mushroom altar and kind of feeling like I was like an ancestor in the stars looking down over like a whole galaxy. That was the first time I saw that galaxy.

And just like that godly presence. It's just like, oh, like we can, you know, kind of go all the way out and look down back on this human life and say, how funny, how silly, how dramatic, how theatrical. Like, look at all this stuff that they're trying to do. So the ancestor perspective is like, it's sweet. Yeah, it is definitely sweet. You know, I can't think. There's a poem that you, or more of a. mantra that you said to yourself that was given to you by a Hawaiian friend of yours. Do you remember

what that one was? Hooponopono. Yeah. So in the Mama Bear chapter, there's a pretty out there section. I actually, when I went back to Baltimore in just a small circle of people, I read it to the folks in Baltimore because I was like, they're going to get this. It's pretty psychedelic. But I had heard it from, there's a woman who, she was Hawaiian, and her legacy. And her legacy, or like her lineage was of these um they're called navigators or something like people who could take these canoes out into the open ocean and like figure out where to go just based on the stars and the ocean which itself is psychedelic right i mean that's totally being in the middle of the ocean look like mapping the stars is the space of this mushroom altar so people want to understand like what's the example on earth that's it and so she was talking about this prayer and that was in 2009 i had just graduated with my PhD. So I had that prayer from 2009, and it didn't fully come into understanding

until that retreat, which was 2017. Right? So quite a while I had to sit with that prayer, but it had been given to me. And, you know, in it is, I had turned the last phrase from, please forgive me to I forgive you. Right.

Which is interesting, right? It's like I needed, I really needed to forgive my dad before I could forgive myself before I could ask for forgiveness from other people. You know, people now, they're like, oh, well, you forgave your dad. You're like, forgiveness should be easy. I was like, no, no, I did it once. Every single time you do it, it's hard. Like, you know, just because I said it once doesn't mean I could do it for all these

other situations or asking forgiveness is also really hard. But it took me into a very mystical place that, what is, it's, thank you. I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me or I forgive you. And yeah, I still have not been to Hawaii. So maybe there's a mystical treasure waiting for me in Hawaii that was planted by that prayer. I guarantee it.

I guarantee it. Just being here is like a mystical treasure. You know, when I walk outside and I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's so beautiful here. And when I read that, I was like, oh, she gets it. Let's go get it. You know, so I'm so. So interestingly, too, and I don't talk about this very much in the book. book, but Ram Dass has these little cameos throughout the book.

Right. And in a way, you know, he, he had that desire to create the first, well, it wasn't the first, but he ended, he would have created the third open air cremation site that was recognized by a U.S. government. And he couldn't make it happen in Hawaii, you know, so he was, he ended up being cremated in a normal, you know, retort just like my dad was. And Crestone is one of them. And at Shambala Mountain Center where I was a meditation researcher,

I actually witnessed an open-air cremation in America for the first time. And again, it blew my mind wide open. There's something about these death rituals that itself is very enlightening. And I feel like it sounds crazy. Like only people like me and Rambats would say, I want to have an open-air cremation site. Like they're like, why are you trying to do this with your life? Like, what does it matter?

It matters that people can see firsthand the transmission of consciousness. That, like, the consciousness goes and then the breath and then all of the sensations, then the body, then the ash, then the smoke. So it's like to see that, I think, heals that death wound. So in a way, I think for, you know, there is this lineage that, you know, Ronda ended up in Hawaii and couldn't quite get to that final, that final finish line. But I told my brother, I was like, if I can figure out a way how to do open air cremation in Vermont, I'm going to do it. You know, he's like, he's just blown right past psychedelic.

You're like, well, what's the next extremely taboo thing that no one here in America knows anything about? Yeah, it makes sense because if you look at the way in which we treat death in the Western cultures, the fact that we don't have an end of life right of passage is scary in itself. The fact that we treat it that way, if you did have. some sort of ceremonial, you know, celebration at the end of life. Like, it wouldn't really go a long way with changing our relationship to it, right? Right. It doesn't have to be open-air cremation. I mean, that's the example that I was introduced to through Buddhism and Hinduism.

But, yeah, you could be, you could plant your loved one under a tree and, like, cultivate a forest, you know? You could, which are cool people doing out on the West Coast now with this, like, recompose. They're, like, turning bodies into soil, which then grow trees. which is really cool. But it's, you know, whatever is the opposite of embalming someone

and putting them in a material coffin that's going to sit there and not rot. Yeah. You know, there are native cultures say that we're eliminating that whole cycle of life by not letting bodies go back into the earth,

by not letting the transition happen all the way. And that's part of why we're so sick. Yeah, that makes sense. I never thought about it from that angle, but yeah, it makes total sense too. If you just look at the way we're... Anyways, let me shift gears here a minute and talk about like... So I really admire the way in which you talk about your relationship with the different sorts of psychedelic substances.

I'm reminded of Carlos Castaneda and how they talk about allies. And, you know, I had to set the book down when I got to the part of LSD where you're like, it's just too fucking long. It's just too got to have long. It's like seven hours and five hours, you know? It's so true, but I really admire your relationship that you've built with the different sorts of, you know, substances out there that help you see different things. And in the book, you talk a little bit about how you really have built up a great relationship with MDMA. I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit, like your relationships to the different substances. Right.

No, I mean, it feels like as someone who felt somewhat alienated from her own culture and family, I kind of feel like they're my family members. Yeah. You know, and I kind of think about them each having a different. character. I actually, now that you say that, I was, I put LSD on the shelf a long time ago, but I hope, you know, it's like, yeah, I, you know, I have two little kids and I've got a lot to do, so I don't have 12 hours to spend with that friend. But, you know, MDMA, it's so interesting because I didn't seek it out. It found me at Dartmouth as a college student, you know, I was probably 19 years old. And some kid brought these little capsules up from, they weren't

even hard-pressed pills. They were pure Molly from New York City. And, you know, the magic of that, you know, some people will only ever get pure Molly in a clinic, most people. And it's like, go back in time and it's like, you know, 23 years ago now, that was available to me on the black market because I was an idiot. I was just like, whatever and like put it, you know, it. it finally felt like my whole body was present. Like I wasn't trying to leave my body. I wasn't trying to disconnect from sensations. It was finally like all of Catherine is here.

And the only thing that's sad about that is like, wow, why didn't I get to experience being totally myself until I took a drug? So thank God it existed and also kind of sad, right? But the problem is that feeling of wholeness was so, it felt so good compared to the feeling of dissociation and brokenness and like, you know, hating myself and all the pain. But then I just was like, I'll just keep taking MDMA. Like I'll keep filling, I'll keep filling up that hole with MDMA.

And because of our biology and I think also the spirit of MDMA, it's like, no, you can't, it won't work that way. Yeah. So again, that's the kind of co-on. It's like, wait, how did this thing help me feel whole, but not keep making me feel whole. And early on in the book, I talk about that moment of realization where I had, you know, been binge drinking and taking all of the MDMA and cocaine, like anything else I could get my hands on in college. And also taking care of that monkey that I was doing research with, giving her ketamine because she had pain and she had a wound. And then finally, both of these things coming together and you realize and like, oh, I'm really messed up. Like I'm going to like my life is over if I keep just like blowing through this you know this experience and trying to not really look at what's happening.

And so again, MDMA went back on the shelf for a while. There was one experience I had at Burning Man, but within like two days of that experience, I just felt so depressed. And I do want to take a minute and say, I know that Max and Rick Doblin and all of these very well-intentioned people don't believe that the come down is. true that they're like oh this can do it pretty really true for a lot of people and we have to pay attention to that that like you need to take care of yourself for the few days after MDMA and if you have a really terrible day just like remind yourself like this is what happens my brain is building serotonin back up I literally have no serotonin right now it's very hard to

function without serotonin there are ways to kind of mitigate that but not to downplay it because, you know, it can, it can lead to suicide. It can lead to that kind of thinking. So anyway, fast forward. It was when my dad was pretty clearly dying of brain cancer, but was kind of back in like a place where he was pretty healthy. So we knew he was going to die, but he was healthy currently. And I was like, well, I'm freaking out now.

You know, it's like the most powerful person in my life who's caused the most difficulty but has taught me so much is going to be gone soon. Like, what am I going to do? And that's when MDMA, like, kind of like, said, hey, I can help with this. Yeah, remember me? And I really had to trust that it wasn't just going to be like it was when I was a kid, like when I was a college student. And how does that work?

How does a drug exhaust itself and then yet come back into your life and still work? So I personally think that MDMA is just as sacred as mushrooms, as the indigenous healing medicines. I think that, you know, LSD is a bit of a trickster. I think it has a sacred side. It has like a hedonism side. So I'll just, again, I'll leave that for others to pontificate about. But I feel pretty strongly the MDMA is one of those sacred, sacred spirit entities

that kind of came through our culture at a certain time. And it will heal a lot of people. But I just don't think it should be confined to a medical institution. It wants to be free. It's true. It's interesting that up. I was talking to a scientist from, I think he was from Berkeley. And he was telling me about like the Blue Monday study.

Because he had asked me, oh, George, what do you think that after MDMA that you feel bad? I'm like, absolutely. Like the next two or three days, like, I'm just all wrecked. And he's like, let me ask you this. When you ingested MDA, did you do any other drugs or drink a lot of alcohol with him? Oh, yeah, I totally did all that. And he's like, well, don't you think that maybe if you had pure MVMA and you didn't have all these other substances that you wouldn't have that come down period? And I was like, I can't tell you because I've never done it that way.

But, you know, I do. I can tell you, I can tell you, having done it all of the very irresponsible recreational sleep deprivation, not enough this. It still happens even if you do everything right, at least for me. And so here's another little, this is like a biohacking thing. So there's this thing called, what is it, 365 DNA? You can find out all this information about your genetics, but it doesn't go to some, like, I don't know, someone's like vault somewhere.

Right. Develop AI. But I learned that I have these two short serotonin alleles. And if you have two long serotonin alleles, usually like you're not susceptible to mental health issues, you don't get addicted to substances, you're a happy person, you're happy, go lucky. if you have one short allele, you have a greater chance.

If you have two short alleles, you're like, F. So when I found that out about myself, I'm like, no wonder. Like, I've been trying to make up this deficit in serotonin my whole life. No wonder MBMA felt so good the first time I took it because I was actually finally functioning. And so what I would say to people is if you want to be really smart about this, you can find out where your deficits and strengths are in your body, your history, like I really want people to be scientists about their life and so it's like find out

your risks are find out what medicine is going to fit the most with your genetics your history your trauma your memories you know your family life how you want to work in the world and then they'll probably be the right medicine for you just kind of have to do a little bit of grunt work you know to get there and certainly don't just you know because the doctor says oh I heard MDMA is available now. You want to try it. Be like, hey, maybe I'm going to have a really hard Monday, Tuesday, and if I've got five kids in the house, like, I want

to take a vacation for a week instead of come right back. Right. Yeah, there's something to be said about understanding the things that you're working with, right? And it is a relationship. It is like, okay, with this relationship, I'm going to be wrecked for like a couple

days. Or with this relationship, I need 14 hours. You know, it's I think that there's something to be said about the person who builds that relationship at a young age. And for a lot of us, it starts off as recreational. But later, that recreational relationship turns into almost an optimization relationship. We're like, hey, if I have this, then I'm going to be able to get through that. And in a weird way, it's kind of like dating in a marriage. Like when you find something you like, you go out on this date a little bit, you have this great time.

Maybe it's a little irresponsible, but you had fun. and then later in life you grow to love it in a different way, right? It's kind of crazy to think about. No, and like when you talk about the thing about elders and ancestors, like, I hope I get to an age where I'm still like, you know, interested in taking these things and I have a lot more time on my hand. Right. Just have these days where I'm like, hey, I haven't gotten to try 2CB in a long time.

You know, does anyone still make 2CB? Is that still available? Can I try that? which again, I found produced even a worse hangover headache than MDMA. And Sasha Shulke had always said that 2CB and MDMA were two of his favorites. And it's interesting that he didn't talk about what it feels like afterward. And like, does it not bug him or did he not get it? But like for me, it's like, you couldn't pay me to have that kind of headache two days later again.

Like, no thank you. Yeah, it's fascinating to think about it. I do hope that I'm curious I'm curious to see how the relationship with your teaching and your writing goes on because I think that while you're living this life now we got to see like the first chapter right I maybe this is me being selfish but I see like at least a three volume set I see this one we have which was like the Dr. McLean like the wild series here and then we're going to get to see the one where you are becoming the elder and then one where you know you have a whole whole different take on on what it means to be responsible with the relationships of life and how to get the juice out of himself but dr mclean this has been so much fun for me i really i i i crush the book i have all these notes and even though you can't see in front of me i got like eight pages of notes up there i think we've been through maybe four of them every one should go here's what the book looks like for anybody who's watching it's a great book uh midnight water you're never going to find

another story that's as wild as this and beautiful as this and you're going to set the book down and stare outside the window and laugh and realize, hey, I did that exact same thing. You know, it's a wonderful book and I really admire the way you've done it. Before I let you go, though, would you be so kind as to tell people where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about? Sure. Well, thank you for loving the book as much as I love it. It's like, I love it so much.

And I wish for everyone to experience it. So in a couple days, I am flying to the island of Bermuda where I wrote the book. And we'll be doing the actual government of Bermuda through the National Library has asked me to do a reading, which is huge. They're a very conservative culture. So they're like, even they're interested in psychedelics, which is good. Then on to London. And London, as you know, from reading the book, was kind of the birthplace of a lot of these, you know, notions and. interest and ideas. They have a very thriving psychedelic theme there, both research and recreational.

And then I'll be happily back in Vermont for most of the summer with my kids. This fall I'm trying to get to New York City in October for a book reading but also with music and we're trying to give people the idea with some of these events is we want people to have like a little like not a deep dive but like a moderate dive into midnight water. We want people to taste that psychedelic dream space, but not be overwhelmed. So like in a half hour, 45 minutes, you can get a taste of what this space is like sober. So that's in New York and probably California at the end of November. And then if I survive all of that and I still have energy and my voice, I definitely have a second book and a third book that I want to write. And I hope that they will be just as

miraculous as midnight water and I hope they don't demand so much sacrifice from me. I hope they're just fun. Yeah. Well, I think that without the sacrifice, you know, there can be no real elevation to the level it's at. And I think that that's because there was so much sacrifice and there's so much vulnerability and there's so much love in there that, you know, thanks to introducing the world to your sister and your dad and your niece and everybody in there and your husband and your kids too, it was really well done. I would recommend, too, that while it's a great read by itself, I've found that a light microdose just really makes the letters just jump off the page. So just my opinion. It's my opinion. So Dr. Catherine, I'm really thankful, but it's been amazing. Is there anything else that you want to

leave the people with before we go? Well, I just, again, want to be kind of the voice of reason, despite my own choices. You know, we are about to be hit with a tidal wave of advertising, a tidal wave of influence, a tidal wave of options around psychedelics, both legal and extra legal. And just kind of educate yourself now. Like be ready to be a smart consumer of this information that's coming at you. And, you know, tell your older relatives, tell your family members. Make sure that you educate the people around you so that then when they encounter this

question for themselves, they know how they want to answer it. They know the questions they want to ask in return. And just, you know, be smart and be wise. These medicines have a lot to offer. And, you know, you also have snake oil salesmen offering the medicine alongside the snake oil. So got to be a little bit one step ahead. Yeah. Gosh, I wish we had more time.

I think it's such an imperative part for people to understand that with some of the things becoming legal and so many people, the certain demographic of boomers that are finding themselves at the end of the mortality experience, like it could be such a. beautiful opportunity for people to have this tool in their toolkit. And we didn't really get to go into that as much as I wanted to. But you're right. People should be educated on it. Let's see what happens with some of these bills. Let's see what happens if the FDA actually legalizes MDMA. Maybe we have this conversation a year from now after mushrooms are legal in Vermont and people can buy MDMA for the first time from a doctor. I mean, that'll be truly psychedelic. Yeah. You know, we can think about it now. But when it's actually happening, I think we'll get to really, really see what the power of these things are.

Yeah, that's really well said. Hang on one second here, Dr. McLean. I'm going to hang up with the audience, but I wanted to talk to you for another moment. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. I hope that the world is singing to you and there's a little miracle. It's about to happen in your life. And if you believe in yourself, I believe that you can become the best version of yourself. That's all I got for today.

Ladies and gentlemen, Aloha.