TrueLife - Keith Heinzerling - This Man Is Rewiring Humanity

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️ Keith Heinzerling Aloha, fellow travelers of the interior cosmos—welcome back to TrueLife.Today, we cross the event horizon of healing and vision—not with blind faith, but with the scalpel of science in one hand and the torch of gnosis in the other.Our guest is not merely a doctor. He is a cartographer of the uncharted mind, a practitioner of medicine on the edge of myth, and a psychedelic Prometheus—channeling fire through molecule, myth, and memory.He is the Director of the TRIP Center—yes, you heard that right: Treatment and Research in Psychedelics—a sacred laboratory at the Pacific Neuroscience Institute where the walls between dream and data are melting into revelation.He is also the co-founder of SkyFire Retreats, where ancient rites and clinical rigor converge, creating spaces where transformation isn’t metaphor, it’s biology rearranged by grace.Through ReWild Medicine, he reminds us that healing is not a sterile procedure—but a reunion with nature, with spirit, with the breath of the Earth herself. He is a healer who hears the voice of Gaia in the silence between heartbeats.Board-certified in Addiction and Internal Medicine, he has walked the corridors of Western science and returned with elixirs for a culture in collapse. At BDH Pharma, he is architecting cannabinoid technologies for pain, for addiction, for the ache we carry when we forget who we are.A former UCLA faculty member, yes—but more than that: a neuro-shaman in a white coat, a truth-seeker with a scalpel and a soul, bringing the mad beauty of the psychedelic renaissance into the language of neurons and measurable light.So light your candle, sharpen your questions, and open your heart—Because today on TrueLife, we’re not just talking medicine.We’re talking metamorphosis.Please welcome the visionary healer,Dr. Keith Heinzerling.https://spiritualscientist.me/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Heiress through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, psychedelic science 2025. I was walking about and who do I see, but one of the coolest people that I've met virtually, but never in person, The one and only, Keith Heiserling. Keith, what's going on there?

Not much, George. I was very glad to be able to meet you in person. I feel like we already know each other, but it's great to meet in person as well. Yeah, we were just talking briefly about, you know, LinkedIn being a place where you can meet so many cool people virtually. But psychedelic science has really been a place

where I've got to come and actually meet the people that I've spoken to for so long. It's amazing. I've seen Susan Gooner out here, Christian, Diego, Jack Gorselin, Noah, like Alex Detmering like so many people are out here just doing their thing it's a beautiful it's a beautiful arena agreed so Keith when I came out here I was a little bit overwhelmed and I decided to ditch my my whole you know plans that I have and just sort of kind of go go out and start looking at talks

and listening to people what have you thought about the whole convention so far it's already Friday yeah it's been flying by I too have just pretty much been wandering wandering wandering around. I've tried to go to a couple talks and been intercepted on the way by people like yourself, George, who I want to see and then end up talking and miss the talk or show up at the end and try to grab the speakers. So it's been a very fluid, fluid a couple days, but it's been very productive, and I feel very grateful to have been here and been able to meet everybody. Yeah, me too. There's so many people here with so much. many different points of view. I kind of feel for a long time science and spirituality have been at

odds a little bit, but there's everybody here and everybody's talking about it, figuring some things out. What's your thoughts? Yeah, I have been thinking that maybe psychedelic science isn't exactly the right name for it in a way that maybe it should be psychedelic science and spirituality or just something a little broader. There is, there's plenty of good science being presented. And like you, George, I feel like our mission is to, in this modern time, is to not lose the essence and the benefits of scientific thinking and use technology for good, but at the same time, not over rely on it and allow the other non-physical aspects of life to come back to be side by side and at the table with science instead of it. It's not either or. It's not an either one. It's interesting you say that because first off, it's beautiful.

And second off, it echoes like all the work you're doing. For our audience out here who may not know, maybe you could shed a little light on what it is you're doing. Sure. Yes. I'm a physician. I'm a doctor. And I run a psychedelic research center in Santa Monica. And we do clinical trials of psychedelic medications for mental health conditions like depression and anxiety.

It is primarily working with pharmaceutical companies who are trying to get FDA approval of the medicines. And I feel strongly that getting FDA approval of, say, psilocybin or any of the psychedelic medicines would be a very important thing to provide access to psychedelic therapy for patients. But it is only a small sliver of what is interesting and important. in the realm of psychedelics, the medical applications of psychedelics. I want to see the benefits realized for patients and for society. But there, and I think in some of the developed countries, the path through medical testing and medical approval of psychedelics is seen as a way to get started. And it's something that most,

people, I think, probably find acceptable, but the potential benefits of psychedelics go well beyond the medical applications. And I really am very excited to try to lend my efforts to increasing access to psychedelics in that realm as well. Yeah, I think you are lending an incredible hand to it. Like you and your whole team are doing amazing work down there. Thank you. You know, on the way in earlier today, I was talking with a friend of ours, Matt Zee. And he was telling me about some ceremonies at end of like end of life ceremonies They had recently had a gentleman that was like 86 years old and he came in with his family to share like the last You know time of his life together yeah like that to me like I get goosebumps when I think about it

Yeah if we can start seeing the end of life or these traumatic moments he had mentioned someone that had cancer Stage four and she wanted to come in with her family and have a ceremony and in in and celebrate life as a process. Yeah. Like, I think we're moving in that direction. What are your thoughts on? Can we get there? Can we get more people to see that?

Well, my thoughts about can we get there are mostly revolve around a greater sense that I have just personally where I'm at in life, that, you know, there's a lot of stuff. Most things are probably out of my control. I just, they're all just here. There's the arc of the history of humanity that is just slowly unfolding. And sometimes if you, you know, depending on, if you zoom in on certain times or pull back, right, like if you look at where psychedelics are today or this month versus, you know, overall. And also, like, you know, George, you and I were just talking before we went on air about how if you pull back, and also think about psychedelics in their proper i think proper context which is that um you know a lot of the things that are happening with psychedelics um are are happening in related ways in the world in society

in culture in general it's really it's not like this is happening in isolation there's this is a time one of those times i think in history where where things are going to do some sort of a phase shift and I hope I sincerely hope that whatever is shifting doesn't end up you know that those can be difficult times. Yeah. Many innocent people go through suffering or maybe harmed. I really hope that that can be minimized but it does feel like a time where things are speeding up. Like myself and my colleagues were saying wow it feels like things are speeding up but we we feel much more grounded and confident in our mission. So we're slowing down in a way and just being like, well, we know why we're here.

We know what we're supposed to be doing. We're doing it as best we can. And everything else is accelerating around us. So, you know, it's a strange time. And with all risks, there's opportunities. And hoping that the risks won't be too bad. And the opportunities will turn to be good for everyone. It's so well said, you know, with AI and psychedelics, especially like the bubble you and I travel in.

It seems that it's just so fast and so quick and things are always changing. But I see so much positive traction out there. You know, you have Texas that kind of just passed the ibogaine. Although, you know what I heard? I heard that the Texas, the legalized ibogaine, or they got, I'm sorry, they didn't legalize ibogaine. They got a large funding for iBocene. Yes. Thank you.

But I heard they also took away THC products. Did you hear about that? Oh, I, oh, there was some, but a separate. It was a separate, yeah. I think it was a separate piece of the legislation. Yeah, I mean, that's how it's, it's, I mean, I'm in California. Okay, me too. And we're, right, we're, we're, um, have a lot of friends and colleagues and I try to help always.

I say, if I can help in any way, they're trying to work on policy. Okay. Nice. Like dogs in California. And, um, um, I, um, And I've been reluctantly involved in political and policy things in the past. I say reluctantly just because it's such hard work. Of course.

I have such respect for like the people that are trying to work on policy. Talk about needing a long view. You really do. But, you know, like currently in California, if you do surveys of people, there's a pretty good support for the idea that's psychedelics. could be helpful to society. But when you think about trying to actually get a law passed in California or any state, whether it's state, local, federal, there are so many random things that are kind of about,

you know, politics is people. Politics is people. And so it's people and people have feelings and ideas that differ. And that's a beautiful thing. But it's not like rational. It's not like, well, here are all the pros and cons. And then we're a computer. and we say, well, the pros are more than the cons, so it passes, you know?

There's a lot of, like, very complex things that come into play that don't have anything to do with psychedelics. So, yeah, I think that just shows that, you know, it's not like there isn't necessarily some grand understanding behind some of these things. It's just that the way politics works is you've got to get lucky. And maybe someone who's influential has a personal, you know, experience that leads them to be supportive and they're able to guide it through yeah so you know it's

it's a it's a crazy thing and texas is ahead of california at the moment which is really strange because you would think california think it would be the opposite so go figure i don't know yeah it's interesting to see and think about the different states something here in denver like i was outside the the conference and they had a they had a people with a booth they're selling like mushroom gummies and like people are lighten up cannabis on the street you know I think it's a double edge sword like I love the fact that it's that it's decriminalized I think that's really awesome but I think on some level it opens the door to getting products that are less than less than you know what I mean maybe that's part of it though I don't think maybe you can't

Maybe the people that are going to find these products need to start doing some research and figuring out who's reputable, who's not. And maybe the idea, and maybe this is a bigger part of the policy is this idea that we can be safe all the time is sort of flawed. I understand that we need to be safe. And I'm for harm reduction and I'm for safety. But it seems that you're never going to be safe. And there's going to be people out there that are purely for profit or trying to do some things out there. So I see both sides of it. You know, what are your thoughts?

There's just in general, it's very hard to simplify. In the adult modern world, there aren't many clear black inmates. So true. There's so much gray. So when you're trying to craft the policy, I'm sure I see what they're trying to do. Right. Try to, you know, try to create an environment that encourages the responsible things. Right.

Discourges. But, you know, you can never eradicate some action or behavior. it's just probably not possible. But one thing I was thinking yesterday and today, which I was saying to a couple of people this morning, because people were saying, well, what's the biggest impression you've had so far of the conference? And for me, I think it's that I sense a huge energy

around and under Ibo gear at the moment. And it's a very interesting energy in that, There is quite a bit of interest in the science and could it be a treatment, a medicine for treatment in the medical system. How would you deal with the potential cardiac complications that may come along and et cetera, et cetera? And then at the same time, I just feel this really strong. And this is true for all of the traditional psychedelics, of course, but this feels like there's something. you know particularly unique

kind of like with ayahuasca there's very specific I feel a sense of just a huge specific type of history behind ayahuasca and I feel the same thing with with Ibo Gain and I feel those forces

of the you know the indigenous aspects of Ibergain it feels like they're they're holding their ground and they're really trying to to stand up a bit now and more and come really try to come to the table and you know counter some of the commercialization plans and and it it's that seems I mean that I I want to support that I it's not even that I want to support that it just feels right and natural yeah but at the

same time I also know that the train has left the station and you know again i don't know that it's going to be possible to or even beneficial to try to prevent right so but it almost feels like there's been this like debate and dance of like the pharmaceutical companies and the indigenous right people and they've been there have been two sides and both have been kind of progressing but they haven't come together to actually like hash it out or got to forbid fight it out yeah not yet and it almost feels like maybe this iboga and ibogan is going to be the place where that where there's more of a direct engagement and and i really hope that that could lead to to something a better in general for second off the better balance and and you know a

cooperation and a coalition between the the variety of different stakeholders to try to come up with something that would just be good for all involved. And in particular, you know, really like ingrains her respect for where the medicines have come from, while at the same time is open to modern science, perhaps, you know, taking some of the knowledge and advancing it hand in hand maybe with. But I don't know, it may not play out and it may turn out to be just a big fight. I hope not. And, you know, so, but it's, I don't know. I just, that feels like an energy then.

Yeah, I think it's a beautiful point. And one of the reasons I think psychedelics has had a problem is it's difficult to measure subjective things. You know, and so when we try to get into the labs and we try to figure out, okay, yes, but why? It's very difficult to figure that out. But Iboga comes in as like, I work. I work. And they're like, yeah, but why? Don't worry.

I work. Watch this. I know. And it's so undeniable. There is something about. Right? you there's some and not even like at that level but you're you're touching on an aspect of what I feel about it it's just like I bogus like you know the history of

it is like it's a proud it feels like this we're noble like we're noble like yeah we are here we've been here and you know mess with us at your risk right like threatening not threatening not aggressive in any I don't feel aggression but I do feel like like respect if yeah we deserve respect and and we're we're getting to try to we're ready to defend ourselves yeah we're proud it's a proud thing and so and i respect i respect that but but yeah you're right and um so you know it's yeah i think i mean subjective is subjective like right you try can't take objective measures and try to assess subjective it's kind of silly to try to try but

But the biggest thing for me that like underlying all that, like we were talking about, like, what if, what like Instagram saying you can't talk about psychedelics and LinkedIn? Are they going to say you can't talk about psychedelics? And we were saying that we could have a very productive conversation and never use the word psychedelics and talk about exactly what we want to talk about because psychedelics are an amazing case study. One of the best there is, of course. But nonetheless, it's not about psychedelics as much as that psychedelics open the door to a variety of things that are what I'm really interested in, what I really think can help the land. That is a better balance of, you know, the objective measurements and scientific worldview is one slice of what we live in. And there are limits to what it can explain and what we can use those tools for. And to say that the things that we can't explain currently with science are not important or don't exist or in our imagination is harmful and not helpful and really just doesn't make any sense to someone who lives and has experiences and the experiential part is very valid.

So, you know, a more a wider, more holistic view of reality that doesn't. isn't just firmly rooted entirely limited to the materialistic is is what interests me the most and psychedelics are in our way that that it like it demonstrates it or or gives you the the experience that that you know can be can open you to the to that some people are aware without psychedelics but psychedelics are a good tool for that and i think that's what um And, you know, it's not, I was going to say, you know, sometimes you're like, well, can psychedelics save the world? I think, you know, nothing's going to, nothing's going to save the world. We're not.

I mean, it's just doesn't, no one's coming to save us. No way. It's us. We're going to do it or we're going to not. And it's not so binary anyway. And even if humans disappear, it's just going to keep on going without us, you know, sadly or maybe, you know, maybe that's what, maybe that's what has to happen. I have no idea. I hope not.

I hope not. But yeah, you know, we don't need, we need to, we can have, we can talk about the important things, even if someone told us you can't say to them in psyched life. Right. It's all still there. Right. Yeah, it's interesting to think about the authoritarian part of it. You know, it maybe that's something that happens.

Maybe, you know, when we, sometimes when we look at addiction. Like, it is a pretty big, like a $32 billion industry. You know, and there are a lot of entrenched people and there's a lot of livelihoods and there's there's institutions built around it. Do you think that there is, like, is there, I hope there's not a fight, but on some level, maybe they can be a coming together of the two, like, can they find a path to work together instead of it having to be like, we're not doing this? We have to, I mean, only with,

we can make any progress of working together right you know I'm I'm very yeah I think often these days about how the some of the biggest challenges I think we're facing they're all planetary level of challenge yeah they're not national challenges they're not something you know that the nations serve a purpose I don't necessarily think we should have no nations I think there's nothing wrong with being patriotic it's very healthy that patriotism having a strong sense of like a heritage and a culture at a place. But it's not the most important thing.

And nationalism never really has never really been a good thing. It usually just leads to conflict. But, you know, we need more of an understanding that we're all in this together. And to work at the most core levels, there are, all those are our deep core issues that are common to the planet, not even just humans. And so psychedelics and like addiction, which is my special team, was my main medical specialty, we often talk about how like, listen, if someone is having, is out of control drinking and they're driving drunk and they're losing their job, right?

You need to focus on the drinking behavior to stabilize things. Right. They may die or something they're at. So it's all about focusing on the substance at the start. Right. But that's just the substance use is just a symptom. That is what the tip of the iceberg above the water. You see that.

The real issue is all below, whatever it is, and it's different for every person. Sometimes it's a traumatic thing or whatever it is. I think there is much more understanding in the modern addiction therapy world at the moment that, you know, yes, it is important. It used to be just entirely focused on you need to not use abstinence from the substance. That's all that matter, right? No, so they have much more of an understanding of that, but there still are some places where there's some limitations in conceptualization. But it is getting better. Because I remember way back when just first starting with addiction medicine and, you know, and after you talk to enough people, you realize that when you first look at their life, you're like, it's chaos.

And they're doing all these drugs that are harming them. Why would they do that? It's still irrational. Or are they crazy? But then you get the greater context of their life and their situation. And unfortunately for them, where they're at at the moment, the most rational thing to do is use the substance. They're holding their entire life together with this like duct tape of the drug or alcohol. And if they pull that off without proper support, everything falls apart.

They're in a bind where they're like actually the most logic. I realized, like if I was in their circumstances, I would probably do the drug too. Yeah. So that doesn't mean it's not an excuse or it doesn't absolve anyone of individual responsibility to try to be a good person and to try to work to be better.

But you have to take that context because if you just try to get them to remove the crutch, which it is a crutch, right? If you throw the crutch away without something else to support them, they're not going to swim. They're going to sink, you know? And psychedelics are perfect for that. that's so it's a great example of how it really just pushes through like that pushes through the

surface level things to the the lower things and that's why i think there's so much you know amazing potential for um working with addiction and substance use disorders with with psychodox man it's such a great answer it blows my mind too to think that for a long time and maybe with good intentions we really worked on solving the symptoms. Like, hey, this is the symptom right here. But with a newfound awareness, it seems that you can get to the underlying problems. And that is where real work is being done. Especially if we go back to Iboga for a moment, they're having incredible rates of helping people.

Like 80% once they begin a process with Iboga. And relatively short, obviously, it's not a magic bullet. it's not going to be one session, but there's over a period of time you can use it. And in some of the, some of the testimonies I get from people are like, I figured out why I'm doing it. Yeah. And I don't need to do that anymore. Yeah. It's amazing to think they're changing the whole neuroplasticity.

We've had so many people do the clinical trials with psychedelics. And at the end of all that, they'll say, I'm so glad I did this. It helps so much. And I hope to never do this again. You know, they're like, there is a lot, you know. Right. Right. Yeah.

And I think so, you know, sometimes are clearly important, but of course. They're totally right. Like treatments that just ameliorate. Like, so, you know, I work in behavioral health and mental health, but I'm also just a regular general medical doctor by my primary training. So, like, if you're a medical doctor and there's a fever, you know, you go, yeah, here's some Tylenol and I'll maybe make you feel a little better. But, but you really. what the doctor's thinking is, what's causing the fever? What's the sort of fever?

Is it something that's going to kill them? Or is it mild? You would prefer to treat the cause of the fever. So the fever goes away. Yeah, you give them something to feel better until the fever, till the like thing gets addressed and identified. So like just making people feel less sad when they have to put, right? It would be much better to get to the cause.

Right. I think for me anyway, and I can only speak through my own lens, but my relationship with psychedelics has really broadened my awareness with my relationship to the world. And I think that that's a big part of behavior and mental illness. Or I don't even know if I like mental illness. Like, you know, maybe there's a better word or something along the last time. It's like when I see patients for the first time, I eventually usually ask them, you know, do you consider yourself an addict or, you know, an alcoholic?

like and just to see what they say. And I always said, I'm not going to ask me a lot of trick questions, but this is one of them where I'm asking it for a reason, which is that, you know, I'm, I don't really use those terms with patients. We say alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder, but it is important. Some patients will say, yeah, I'm an addict, you know, I know. And then other patients are like, I'm not comfortable with that term. Words are powerful. Yes. They are important, And but but you don't need to put but they're just words. You don't need to like hold on to it if it's not Productive or helping the person switch up the words call whatever you want to call. Yeah, I don't care what I care about is what you actually do and what we actually do not what we actually do not what we could call it so that I you know, so you're not in the back of your head. Yeah, I'm not gonna do what just got to do it's got to come to an agreement on the terminology so But yes, psychedelics, again, this isn't specific to psychedelics.

Psychedelics just happen to be very uniquely suited for us. But that is, I think the task in life in general is just kind of understanding who you are and why you're here and how you're supposed to make a difference. And for some people, that difference is on a big stage and in others, it's on, you know, quote, a quote, a smaller stage, but a lot of times probably those small things are, really would make the most difference in the long run, you know, just being a good parent or member of your family or community or whatever and and knowing, knowing yourself and, and better understanding where you're, like you said, your place in the grander, you know,

the fabric of life and, and, and humanity and the world. And that's, that's just a general task that we're all supposed to do each time you know each time around and uh psychedelics can be very helpful for that if you if you do it the right way man i love so much of that like you're if i come back to words for a minute like the idea when we label people sometimes that becomes an identity for them like you're an addict you're a abuser you have PTSD yeah well we all do that's what i'm just I like them label themselves. Right, right. I don't want to label them.

Right. But if they have like a label that they're using to express, you know, code word for their ID. That's important to know. And, and, you know, so, but you're absolutely right. Yeah, I don't want to label them. Right. Mislabel. What if, do you think we could get to a place where instead of like PTSD, we got to like,

um, like PTGO, like post-traumatic growth opportunity? You know, like a right of passage. Like if we saw it, if those people could see themselves as a right of passage, like, look, you're bleeding, you're crawling, you've lost everything. But congratulations, you made it. I know. Now you're one of us, you know? That, yes, I think about this a lot.

Okay, cool. This is an example, I think, of, again, like, whether you want to, when you look at a life, you can either zoom in or zoom back. And which is most important? Well, you know, okay, right now, if you are like standing on my two, toe, George, be like, George, come on. I thought George, right? Like, that's pretty important.

It's just in the moment, but hey, I don't want, you know, I don't want my toes to be on. But like, if I zoomed back to my entire life, this one moment of someone standing, is it really that important, right? Is it defining? No. So, yes, right? Like, the truth of the matter is that these things happen for a reason in a way.

I don't think that there's like, you know, a guy with a way. a beard and a, you know, up there just like planning it out for us, like the principal of school or anything, but they do for, you know, happen for some reason or at the very least, if we're lucky, we can make meaning, make things meaningful, you know, make things good or bad that happen to us meaningful. Right. They are growth opportunities. It does a little hard to say that to people when they're in the thick of it, right? Sometimes when they're in the thick of it, they don't want to hear that and so you have to be a little bit you know gentle with with how you bring that up but that is absolutely true right if if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger i guess is one way to think

about it um and so many good things emerge from like i often think i have some patients who have um alcoholism who are really far into recovery as they call it now and um and even like in alcoholics anonymous sometimes people will ask me or I'll ask people what do you know about a and then look at the 12 steps and you know the first three steps of a a about like you know powerless and needing some you know higher power those are the first three ones that are really like about the addiction and then the rest of them are kind of things that that you you might just like the Boy Scouts might have or something that are just like kind of nice thing make amends to people you've

harmed or be of service right like They're actually just things that are nice things that good people probably would agree would be good to do, right? And so I've had so many people who will say, you know, when I look back, I really wish I didn't have to go through all that. It wasn't fun. I feel bad that I hurt people, but it's in a way it's a gift because I may, you know, and I'll say that I'm like, I've never, I don't have a drug or alcohol problem. Why? I have no idea. I'm not better than anyone else, but maybe I've missed opportunities for growth, right? But I'm just kind of cruising through life, and I'm getting behind.

No one's telling me I need to examine myself deeply and change. So I go, oh, I'll just keep trucking. But for them, you know, it hits the fan. And if they get through it, then they look back and they're like, there's a lot of things about me that I might have never gotten to that are wonderful things now that only happened because I went through that. But it's that you've got to convince them that you just got to hang in there long enough so that when you zoom back, you're like, wow, look, this, it's a hard one,

particularly when they're suffering in the moment. Man, it's so brilliantly put. When I look back on some of the tragedies in my life, like I wouldn't, first off, if I could choose, I would have never chose to do them, and I wouldn't choose anybody else through them. But that being said, it was those tragedies that allowed me to be who I am. And I think when you get to a spot where you can look back and make sense of it, you know, after the emotion is sort of waver.

Yeah. Like you really realize, oh my gosh, that was a transformable moment in my life. And because of that, I'm going to love more than I ever have helpful. Yeah. Those opportunities are there. Yeah. The hard ones I think are the hardest ones I think are when, you know, like when when you have hurt people. Yeah. Those bad times when, you know, so like people who, who, you know, cause an accident, driving intoxicated and they have to live with that. Right. forever and it's that's a tough one or when you've been hurt by other people like like a lot like i was thinking about how um you know people can be you can have a tsunami or an earthquake or or a natural disaster and people are hurt and harmed and it's terrifying and people certainly can have PTSD even as a result right those events but then terrorism and war or individual violence between people yeah just is so much more damaging because it's like peace someone did that yes oh and another person and particularly it's someone close to you your family watch out yeah that's that's the deepest the deepest wound and there's just a whole

another layer so you know um they'll never be a world without challenges and adversity and there'll be you know disasters or famines or but but individuals but violence by humans i really feel like hopefully we could outgrow that something. Yeah. I'm not, I don't know. Do you think it's getting better though? Like when I like let's take for example like family abuse like you know when you look back

not that long ago it seems to me that perhaps it used to be everybody would spank their kids or you know, you'd get the belt or something like that. But it seems a lot, lot less. And not only it's that kind of abuse but like sexual abuse or trauma. Like I think it's getting better. I think we're spiraling upwards. So it seems like it repeats. But maybe it just it spirals up and we're getting better at them.

Yeah. I think that one of the, what I've heard from from people who have had experiences like this, they will say that another aspect of it that's harmful and really hurtful is that there is that, you know, they'll be embarrassed about having happened that there's a stigma. And shame. You're the victim, right? Like, how can you? you be embarrassed you didn't do anything for that to happen to you it happened to you it's not how

why would you be you know why i think they would be because it brings shame on their family yeah you know you're going to break oh if you say this you're going to hurt your family yeah yeah and so i do think that there's that there are some advances there's more openness to talk about things publicly right because the truth of the matter is like like you know everybody thinks that something doesn't isn't going to happen to them or it doesn't happen to anyone they know it's a it's a distant thing that you can just put out of your mind but that's not true right you when when people do open up you realize that everyone knows someone who's had what of these things happen and they're like a real person you know who you know and love and so i do think that that's that's definitely getting better there's

still problems and that is an important one because the only way to make advances in general would be to be in productive dialogue with about an issue. So hopefully that's getting better, at least as a first step. Yeah, I think so. And I think psychedelics are playing a huge part in people being comfortable talking about things that have happened, realizing that the things that happened to a lot of people. And second, it just makes you more aware of things going around in the world right now. So that's one of the big, I think, you know what I've been talking to a lot as like therapists,

that are using psychedelics. And they tell me about how talk therapy, it used to work. But when they use talk therapy in conjunction with psychedelics, it seems to have profound effects. Yeah, we were talking about this the other day. I think there's two things. I don't have any scientific proof of this.

I don't know how to prove in scientific. All right. Two impressions that I have from psychedelic therapy are number one. And we saw this and we did a study of psilocybin in alcohol use disorder. order. So we witnessed this, I believe. You know, when you tell, like I could be a dog, I have a certain authority as a doctor. I can tell someone, right, you should stop drinking. You need to

see. I'd recommend you stop drinking. And I have to say that a lot because it's a responsible thing to say to people. But, but the initial, anyone, me too, right? If you told me to do something, my initial reaction is like, who are you? You push back. That's kind of a natural. Yeah, of Of course, right? So when we did the alcohol trial, we did not mandate that people set a goal of abstin from alcohol. We didn't tell them what their goal should be. I mean, we said we want you to be safer to, you know, point out that some of these behaviors are dangerous, not healthy. But, you know, we want this to be a way for you to explore and examine and potentially come to a more healthy relationship with alcohol. You and alcohol, your relationship, you know, maybe what parts do you want to? want to change about that to be more healthy and safe. And despite the fact that we were so open about it, quite a few of the patients went through the psilocybin session and they came out and they were like, I got it quit drinking. But it came from them. Yeah. It came from within. It was there the whole time. It's down deep in there, but they're afraid of it for a variety of ways because they're using alcohol to

cope and they're like, if I give it up, how will I cope? Right. But down deep, they know the things should quit drinking. They know all the bad things, but they have this massive layer of like protection and denial set up. And if you start to attack it from the top, it's going to be a long battle to get down to that thing and they're going to fight you to the death. But with the psychedelic therapy, it was them, the part of them stepped to the front and said, we need to quit drinking. And so that's so much more, more empowering. And then the second thing that I feel like there's some element of is that, you know just doing psychedelic therapy or just taking the plunge in like the leap of faith and and and it's a challenge and sometimes it's a challenging experience the ordeal of it yeah it's like

it's a passage yep you know if you they drop you off in the desert and you either make it back and you're like a grown person or you don't make it right that's it right so you know just sometimes it's i feel like it's less sometimes people do get insights and they're like wow it's blank i've never put the dots together right this is the secret to the universe and now I can live healthfully but sometimes I feel like the content isn't as important like a bunch of random things could could emerge and it's less important that those are the things than that you went through right it's the right of passage of the hero's journey that it's just an archetypical you know legend mythological thing that we all have to go through in some way in our life one way or the other and that's what you're

providing them and you're giving them the quest and and they need to make it through the quest to get the other side and then they can be strong they then they realize hey i'm strong enough to do it i can do it whatever it is i can do it i can do life um so i don't know how to study that person even whether it's worthwhile studying maybe just leave it be be what it is and and not not everything needs to be in a research paper. Yeah, it's so well said. You know, I'm always reminded of Joseph Campbell and psychedelics are, they've been an incredible part of my life.

And Keith, I want to say thanks, man. Like, this has been an awesome conversation. My pleasure. You are an awesome guy. Thank you. Likewise. It takes on to no one, I guess. You know, but hey, people, let's say people are watching right now, Keith, and they

want to figure out how to reach out to you. Maybe they know someone that could use some help or maybe they just want to chit chat with you. Where can they find you? Well, on LinkedIn. me up on LinkedIn or I do have my own personal website that's pretty small but you can contact me there and it's spiritual scientist.me.m.m. So you could look there or just Google and I've got my work website or work emails and so any of those work. Just look me up by Google. Nice. Ladies and gentlemen, go down to the show notes. Check out Keith. That's all we got. Aloha.