TrueLife - Kevin Holt - So, She Left You: A Handbook for Divorced Men

Episode Date: April 9, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/www.kevinholt.mehttp://linkedin.com/in/real-kevin-holtA candid, real life story about life, love, & loss. I love to read books that allow the reader an honest look inside the life of the other…I always find myself there! I Highly recommend this book. If  you know of, or have been effected by a divorce then this conversation is for you.On top of being an author of several books,Kevin also has a suite of professional services that are available on his website linked above. Ask him about the FREE breath-work course for TrueLife Listeners.Also check out the sponsor of this show Under Lucky Stars. This incredible site allows you to stop time! It provides you with an incredible star map. A perfect way to see how the stars were aligned the moment that special event happened! Use this link to receive 10% off your ENTIRE order!https://www.underluckystars.com/TRUELIFEPODCAST One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Like the fear of not being loved or not being seen is another key one. So, oh, this is a great segue back to my book. Yeah, yeah, perfect. Yeah, the pain. of a heartbreak and death also is very healing if you allow it to be. And, you know, I talk about in the

book how I've been divorced and it was really rough for me. But I think it taught me so much. And I'm not, I feel totally different from, from who I used to be. I'm a lot more, I have always kind of humbled, but I feel like I'm a lot more humbled by life now and a lot more appreciative of just simple things like just kindness you know and i try to try to value that in people and um i was having this thought the other day about how when trauma happens it will it will open a wound and it's your decision if you want to just paper that over and uh and ignore it or if you want to like kind of put some lemon and salt into it and maybe some some um disinfectant that will hurt for a while, but then it will actually heal over. And I think that's a key part of the work

is to not run from not run from the bad thoughts and the pain, you know, be by herself and allow yourself to be overcome by despair at times, but understand that you can fight through it. So it's an interesting point. So she left you, right? A handbook for, so she left you. So that's a pretty bold move to write about something so personal in your life. Like, what was, did it take a while to get to the point to decide, okay, I'm going to write about this. I want to share this to help other people. What was the decision point to get there?

I think at first, it was, I don't think it was a decision to, like, help anybody. It was for sure for me at first to try to get some of my ideas and thoughts down and try to understand certain things. But then it became, it got to a point, it's not a long book. I mean, you can probably get through it in, you know, three hours. So it got to the point where I thought, okay, there's some ideas here. And I don't see a lot of this being discussed, especially for men. There's probably a lot more for women about, you know, grieving and loss and stuff like that.

Or more generalized, but I wanted something specifically geared towards. men because my experience of it was quite solitary. I mean, I had friends and I had, you know, guy friends and girlfriends who would give me different perspectives, but ultimately I just felt like I had to figure out by myself. There wasn't a whole lot I could rely on. And so I thought that there was maybe something that especially men could gain from from hearing about my experience. So I haven't done much with it. It's on my website. It's for free as a PDF. I don't know if I'll put it on Amazon. I'm trying to get a cover art designer, but I haven't really found one yet. So right now, it's just a free as a PDF from our website. So anybody who's still on board with this conversation

wants to check it out, you can go to my website and there's like a little form that will, you just put your email address in there and I'll get sent to you. So far, mostly women that have been reading it, unfortunately. I'm trying to get men to read it, but like it seems very difficult. Well, we don't like to talk about it. You know, I mean, it's, it's something that's really personal. And sometimes reading things about why relationships fail force you to face those things.

And I think that there's a lot of people in relationships that would rather have a dead relationship or maybe not want to do it. I don't know. Do you feel different about being divorced after you wrote the book than prior to writing the book? Not really. What I find weird only is that I still have to file my tax return as a divorce person in Switzerland. I'm like, when does that go away? When am I just single again?

Yeah. But I don't honestly think about it too much anymore. I just feel a lot. I don't know, I just feel a lot more grateful. I feel like a lot more grounded and more mature, I guess. Yeah. If you were going to pull a point out of that book to share with guys, like, you know, you said you were hoping more guys read them.

Like, let's say that a lot of guys are watching this podcast or a lot of guys are watching this and read the title about your new book. What is a piece of advice you could give them while they're still in the relationship and a piece of advice you could give them after they got divorced. Okay. So first one, while you're still in a relationship, to the extent you can, try to have a, like a relationship update every so often where you literally ask your partner, like, are you happy. Is there anything that you want to be different? Like just but be vulnerable and try not,

I mean, it's hard to do. But, you know, lower your defenses, you know, ask what's good, what's not good, what you can do better, what she would like more of. Make, this is where I could have done better, which is make more effort at the romance. Because after a while, you just kind of get used to each other and you fall into your routines and I could have been better at like I don't know just getting your flowers every once in a while like I wasn't great at that um be more creative sexually maybe right instead because it gets kind of routine you get into it and you kind of know what you both of you like and you know what works but then try new stuff you know go to a class you learn tantra together like you don't know just keep it keep it interesting those are the two things I would say

or three things I would say during, if it still doesn't work out and you do go through a divorce, one mistake I made was to try to rush the process because I didn't like how it was feeling. I didn't like feeling like a loser, like I couldn't be loved, and I didn't feel like myself anymore.

So I was maybe rushed to try to get back to feeling like I was myself again. And yeah, I think I skipped some steps doing that at first. And then it came back later to bite me in the ass. So it's going to suck. Like just plan for it to suck for like two years and be very weird. And try not to rush the process and just do whatever you can to address the pain. the bad thoughts and all that that you're experiencing. You know, you said you wanted to get back to being yourself.

Do you ever get back to being yourself? Are you a new person? I meant the confidence part because it's confidence. For me, it was like a confidence killer. So I just, I didn't feel like my confidence self for, for a while. And I got back there pretty quickly, but like I said, I skipped, I skipped a few things. And then it bit me later. And then I went, it was almost like this.

It was like down. and then up and then down worse and then up higher. And I think that that was why that happens because I try to battle it too much. It's interesting. I was, I think, 11 when my parents got divorced. And there's this weird cloud of shame that hangs over it. And I've experienced it as a kid. Like, I was ashamed of my parents for getting divorced.

And I'm wondering, did you feel this thing of shame? And if so, what is shameful about it? Like, what did you find shameful about it? I mean, it's on some level. It's just embarrassing because, like, you know, you had everyone come to your wedding and see you pervests these vows of eternal love in front of everybody. And then a few years later, it's like, oops, I got that wrong. And now it's like, all right, well, I don't really want to get married again because it's like,

okay, I'm sure this time. I got it right this time. I promise. Everyone come back. Right. So there's a little bit of embarrassing about that. And just it's more, it's more just, it just, you lose your family because I literally lost my, my wife's family.

You know, I was pretty tight with them. And it is, it is somewhat embarrassing and people, it feels like whether it's true or not, it feels like you get judged for it a little bit. Yeah. Although not so much anymore because so many people get divorced now. Yeah, but there's still a stigma about it. And even if maybe there's not as much of a stigma about it, the fact that you feel there's a stigma about it,

now you just when you see people, you're like, oh, they're probably judging me or, you know, it changes you psychologically in some way. At first I thought that. I don't care anymore. No. But in the beginning, yeah, I definitely felt the shame. And just a feeling of failure.

Like you just went all in and you lost. you know that sucks but hey it's almost a write of passage nowadays so you know yeah everyone going through definitely everyone a lot of people that's i think one of the main things that opened my eyes was like almost that it was almost like kind of a happy arrogance you know i'm happily married and yeah yeah i can't believe people get divorced and like why does that happen and everything is so cool and i don't know why these people not happy and then it happens to you and you're like oh shit this is the experience of like literally half the population man like i'm not unique in this like a lot of people have done this and it's way worse for a lot of people probably than it was for me

yeah and then and then it really opens your eyes to the human experience because then you think wow like how many people were abused like what kind of messed up stuff was going on i was lucky in that nothing really overtly bad happened but there's a lot of situations where that's not the case And they're just stuck in these horrible cycles and emotional loops. You know, like you said earlier, I think your trauma and pain does end up letting you connect with the people because, like, seriously, you're not unique in that. Yeah. I'm curious. I know that, you know, I was born in California, and I know I've read a little bit about the laws only because I came from a broken home.

And, you know, that kind of caught my ear from time to time. And I spent most of my friends came from broken homes. It's weird how that kind of happens. But, you know, there was this idea that if when no fault divorce came onto the scene, that it became easier to get divorced and more people did get divorced. Do you think that if it wasn't easy to get divorced that it would be better for people? Like if it was very difficult to get divorced, might that be a better situation? for families that is a very interesting point and I think there is merit to that I don't know what should be done in terms of legislation but I do think I've come to believe anyway that at the end

of the day love is a choice and people have this idea of like oh I fell out of love this person isn't the one okay but you have have the choice to just go, you know what, this person's not perfect, this relationship is not perfect, I'm just going to choose to love this person anyway and just try and make it work. And I think I haven't spoken to people, you know, married a long time, but I think that a lot of them say that, that you just have to choose the person and then like choose the person that chooses you. So yeah, to kind of reinforce what you were saying, if it's harder to get divorced, you might

have more of that incentive to like, okay, I'm just going to make it. I mean, obviously there are cases of, if I mean, if the person's being abusive or whatever. Right, right. You can't do that. But I'm assuming it's a more or less functional relationship, but maybe the spark is gone. A lot of people use that as an excuse. But I think you can work at that. I think you can choose to value the good in the person,

choose to keep it mutually respectful, and try to see them for the things that you once valued in them. So the no-fault divorce does make that less. You don't have to fight. There should be a little bit of a fight if you want to make that last. And I think that maybe if that were the case, maybe I wouldn't have got divorced because, We literally went from happily married to divorce within like three to two months, you know, because it's just so easy to get out.

We literally just have to fill out a couple forms, go to court, pay the court fee, and that was it dissolved. And to me, yeah, there's something about that that feels a little bit weak. Yeah. Yeah, you can see it in modern day where people that are, this is just an anecdotal idea. I think this, and I've seen some cases of it, but it doesn't mean it's something that happens all the time. But divorce on some level seems to be a measure of affluence. Like if you have enough, you can get divorced, but people that don't have a lot, that are both struggling, a lot of times those people will stay together because they need each other. And it's more than love.

It's like, I need this person. Like, I need them to take the kid over here. I need their uncle to, to help us, or I take care of the mom. And, like, this idea of the family working in a way where people are not only in love, but they need each other. And maybe that's part of the love. Part of the love is, like, I rely on them. I love that, you know, when you have, you know, there's a great quote by, who was it?

I think it was a Gora Vodal. was talking to Hillary Clinton and he was at a dinner party and he says Hillary, why is it that so many men hate you? She goes, I think it's because I remind them of their first wives. You know, and like, it's just

it's this idea. My sister investigates corporate security fraud and she's constantly investigating a lot of high-in white-collar criminals and they're all like on their third or fourth wife. You know, and it just seems that when you achieve, some level of of something maybe you can only love one thing maybe you could only love your

career or your family and maybe that changes back and forth but you know i think when you i think i'm kind of birdwalking here but yeah i think that if it's difficult to get divorced whether it's because of financial needs or spiritual needs or just needing the other person i think it adds that other dimension in there to make it make that bond stronger and a weird sort of way. Yeah, interesting idea. The idea of dependence being an element to love, whether that's good or not, I don't know, because I don't know where I feel about this, honestly.

Like something I thought about it quite a lot where I felt, no, no, I want, you know, I want independence. I want, like, us to choose to be together because we're not dependent on each other. But I don't know if that's the way. Like, I question that. Yeah, I really do. I don't have the answer either. I don't know.

And I, the model I had, I always thought that, you know, you probably get divorced at least once, you know. And like that, that was a model in my family. Like most people have. And, you know, I, I don't know. I think maybe luck plays a big part in it, like all things. I think maybe waiting until you get older plays a role in it, you know, when you're, You're young. You can, I have lots of friends that were younger and, you know, maybe they got drunk and had a

crazy night or, you know, you're just so much more impulsive when you're young. You're not making great decisions. And, you know, it's, it's, there's so many moving parts in there. But it's, it's interesting to think about all those things. Maybe the fact that we're thinking about all those things now is something you should think about before you get married, you know, but how would you have that experience unless you were, I don't know, it's, it's interesting. think you can. I mean, I just think everyone goes into marriage, sort of idealizing it.

Sure. As I write about it a little bit about the book, a lot of it's like movies and this idea that we're taught of this soulmate thing and this everlasting bliss that we'll receive when we get married. It's almost like this weird club that no one tells you the secrets of. Like, you just have to go in. Yeah. And yeah, there's a luck factor. You just, if you manage to find that right person that's, you know, willing to fight and willing to, um, get through the period where like you kind of wake up from your drunken bliss, whatever the first few of the relationship and go, oh, okay, this is this is more what it's about.

I mean, this isn't really necessarily what I was told, but it's nice anyway. Like maybe this is good enough for me, you know? So yeah, I blame the media for the movies industry for that. But yeah, it's a game of luck because, you know, my ex-wife on paper seemed like my perfect match, you know. I'm like, I had no doubt about it. I'm like, yep, I want to marry this chick.

We have all this stuff in common. It's awesome. Love her family. And then, you know, it is what it is. It's a luck game. She wasn't, didn't want to fight or whatever. Wasn't happy and didn't tell me or whatever it was. So it's just bad luck, I guess.

And you always think that you're choosing the right person, but you can't really know until it gets challenging. Yeah. It's an interesting conundrum to not know what the other person is thinking, especially you don't really have any control over what that person tells you. If they choose to not tell you things, like you would never know. Yeah. And there's way worse examples I've heard from friends that were involved with narcissists or sociopaths

that they thought they thought the person was in love with them. Turns out they had like two or three other girlfriends who all thought the same thing. And, you know, and then as I write in the book, like, I don't, I never really knew, I guess, I never really knew my ex-wife, what she really thought because what I saw and lived was different apparently from what she was feeling and thinking. And then, yeah, I mean, how can you really know anybody? because we're always like, I'm figuring myself out as I go. You're figuring yourself out.

It's this evolution. I can't say I 100% know who I am because maybe in five years I will be somewhat different. So if we can't even know ourselves, how can we ever hope to truly know another person? And maybe they're not, some people conceal themselves on purpose, but I think a lot of people do it without realizing it just because they don't really know themselves and then they grow. And then the challenge is, are you just with the right person that you can grow in that framework together and keep it going? Or do you just grow too differently? So that's the luck part, I think. Do you think there's a cultural aspect to it too?

Like, you know, we've talked about the acceleration of our culture or the Western culture and the idea of money and how this material world kind of has really become important. when you look back to, you know, times before the Great Depression where, you know, the family unit was something that was, you know, built up as an idol that people wanted to have. And now independence is something more that seems to be put on a pedestal versus dependence. It almost has a negative connotation to it. So is there some sort of cultural social structure to it that could be affecting the divorce rate in your opinion? I don't know. I just, I think we tend to glorify. like the old days.

Sure. In the past, everyone was happier, the family unit, and everyone was getting long and there was no divorce and stuff. But I don't know if that was true. I don't know how many people miserably stayed together during those days as well. But I think maybe in some ways, we've gone the other direction maybe too far, where we're just used to not fighting for things. It's a gratification society.

It's not going well. I'll just end this and I'll find someone else. And like while you're young, you can. But I think at a certain point, you have to make different decisions. Like when you get older, it's like, well, if I'm 50, I can't just go out and date like at Kuhu when I was in my 20s. And maybe that's settling. Maybe at some point everybody just settles because they're like,

all right, this person's pretty all right. I love them. They're fun to be around. Maybe that's enough. They're nice to me. And I think that like as you get older, standards change right now i'm just happy if somebody's not crazy and nice but that's like you know a lower bar maybe than i used to have when i was looking for this like perfect person yeah um

but yeah there's a balance to be struck between the old school way of like hanging on at all costs no matter how miserable i am and how miserable the the kids are versus now we're just like yeah i'm done with this let's just you know move on it's interesting i when i look at When I think about divorce and I think about my parents, they got married in their 20s. And they were 20, you know, they were kids in their 20s. And they made those kind of decisions. And I look at myself in my 20s and some of the relationships that I had. And I think to myself, you know, this, there could have been something that happened here.

Like what, what if this young girl that I was dating at that time got pregnant? I probably would have got married. And I could see when I, if I'm being honest with myself, I could see myself, I could see myself. in the exact same relationship that my parents were in. And I could see that exact same thing happening to me. And so I try to look at it from that aspect. Do you, were your parents divorced? And do you see a pattern in the way your relationships are?

No, my parents were one of the few that stayed together. Most, there's a couple of my friends' parents stay together, but a lot of them were divorced. I mean, yeah, they seem to have a really pretty good relationship. So it wasn't like I was predisposed. to divorce. In fact, the opposite. My experience is that, no, you can stay together and make it work. But, yeah, there is something to be said about waiting because you probably need to do, like, I don't know,

some kind of a thorough inventory of what the other person really believes in values before. And maybe I was too young. I wasn't that young. I got married at 30 young or 31 or 30. But I don't know. Maybe you should wait until you're 40 or something. I don't really know. But almost everyone I know who got married in their mid-20s is divorced now, with a couple

exceptions. Yeah, you really change through life. And I think one of two things happens. You either grow apart or you grow together. And there's so many tragedies along the way that are just waiting in the road to break people apart. Because life is hard. You know, ideas are hard. Jobs are hard.

And wants are hard. and trying to balance your life with someone else's life is difficult. And, you know, I, it's an interesting, and I heard another great quote. I forgot who said it, but it was something along the lines of. Marriage is a great institution if you love institutions. Yeah. It is an institution. It's almost like its own entity.

Yeah. And I think that's one thing. I didn't consider when I got married the first time. I thought it was just about love, but it's not. It's something different. It's almost like another person's in the room. And you don't want to be a cold rationalist about stuff, but maybe you should think about some of this stuff before you do it, you know?

Yeah. I don't know. It's a battle of like, do you want to just follow your heart completely? Because I've got two minds on this one. because your heart can lead you astray a lot, but then again, it will take you to something that you will grow from. So should you follow your heart or not? You know what I mean?

If I hadn't followed my heart, I wouldn't have had the resulting trauma and growth. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I don't know the answer to that one. Yeah. I don't know. I don't have any answers. I stress that in the book.

I don't know. I don't understand relationships. I don't understand what the right model is. This is just my series of questions and self-reflections. And hopefully somebody has those thoughts before and resonates with it. Well, that's a very honest answer. Yeah. And like I say at the end of the book, like I'm in a relationship now, but I don't know why it works.

We couldn't be more different. And that's certainly not what I thought about relationships before. Like I thought I needed to be someone that was a lot like me. And then that was important. But maybe not. Maybe it's just being with the person that will fight for you. And maybe that's enough. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting you had mentioned that a large number of the people you know who got married in their 20s ended up getting divorced. It seems like, you know, I know some people. that were high school sweethearts and they stayed together. And I want to try to draw this little parallel here. It seems to me like, you know, the first relationship that you fall in love with is sort of idealistic and pure in some ways. And if that can be maintained, maybe it has longevity.

But as you build up more relationships and, you know, say by the time you're 35, you've had five long relationships. You've built up this library of, okay, well, Jessica was great for these things. And Sandy was great for these things. And Barbara was cool for these things. And that you kind of know what you're willing to put up with and what you're not willing to put up with. And on some level, that provides you with, you know, and I think once you gain that, what you get with that knowledge is like, you know, well, I don't like this thing about,

that person. Then the next question is, well, what don't they like about you? Because, you know, you probably have a lot of things they don't like about you. And that kind of puts things in perspective. And so by the time you do get a little bit older, you realize, hey, I'm not the perfect match either. So maybe I should just shut my mouth when I'm thinking about these bad things about that person. Or do I really need to fight this battle? Because what's going to come at me from over here, I might not want to know. But yeah, so it seems like a pure young love can have the ability to go the distance and a more mature love that is understanding of flaws can go the distance but that 20 year old one is like yeah i made a mistake i can't do this you know it's just

yeah is that is that does that make any sense at all kind of i mean the young love thing i mean it could also be that they're just they don't know anything else so they're just like what i got yeah great and i was thinking lately i've been thinking about how i don't think there is such a thing as a normal relationship. I think every relationship is like weird or weird in its own unique ways. Because there are a lot of relationships I see where I go, man, I don't really understand how that works, but it works for them. And it's the same with mine when I'm trying to explain my relationship to my family. And they're like, I don't get it. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's weird in a specific way.

It's certainly not perfect, but it still seems to be working. And everybody I know has got some thing in their relationship, like some weird behavior or whatever. And this is a question, I don't know, is like, are we all just settling? Or are we just lowering the bar and just saying, this person's got more good qualities in bad? I'm willing to overlook all this other weirdness because I'm happy most of the time.

And maybe it's just about being happy most of the time and not looking for perfection. Yeah. Everybody, everybody has some weird quirk to their relationship. So weird is normal, I think. Yeah, it's a great point. Like there's no definition of normal. And sometimes my wife will be like,

you're a lunatic. And I'm like, well, what kind of a person marries a lunatic? You know? Yeah, right. But I think people are still looking, It's like in my brief stint dating, and people are still looking for this perfect, magical, soul-matching chemistry type stuff. But I just don't think that's real. I think being human is real.

Like flaws are real. Like fights are real. Yes. Wanting to sleep in different rooms sometimes is real. Because I want my space, you know, and I'd rather just have my own space for a few days and then busy on the weekends. That's honest. Yeah. Yeah.

You snore too loud. I can't even sleep. Yeah, I can't sleep. I can't do it. I'll be right over here if you need me. It's more at all. I'm out of the relationship or at least in a different bedroom. Like, I can't sleep.

Yeah. Yeah. And those are the things that nobody, no one tells you that stuff before you get married. And then there's this, well, how cool? We're failing because we're not doing. No, you're not. You're finding ways to work with each other to get through the day. And like, that's, that's, maybe it is this, this romantic idea of Disney movies and princesses and princes and, you know, these ideas that we indoctrinate kids with to have unrealistic expectations.

And maybe it exists. Like, maybe I'm just, maybe I just haven't found that magic that I saw in the, in the movies where it's like this faded everlasting love thing. But I don't personally know anybody that feels that way about their special. They love their spouses, but I don't know if they feel that the portrayal in movies type undying soulmady type stuff. So I don't know if that's a misdirection of media or if like we're all just settling because we haven't found it, you know? That's something I think about sometimes too. Like maybe maybe that's part of it. But then I see people that decide not to settle and they just stay single forever because they never find that.

And that's a choice too. I mean, there's nothing wrong being single. Yeah. Yeah, I, um, on, on the, on the idea of the storybook movie and, and this dream of a perfect love, while that may not be something that is rational, knowing about it can give you the power to provide it to the other person from time to time. And I think that there's a lot of power in that. Like, like you said in the beginning of when we started talking about, your book like you know i could have been more romantic i think for a guy like there are times when you should try to be prince charming like get the suit of armor show up at the house rent a white

horse or whatever it is from time to time be run a white horse that's an awesome idea yeah right like like to go way go over the top over the top chivalry romantic to the point of ridiculousness and I think that it will pay dividends the next time you do something really dumb. You know, the next time you do it because you're going to. You're going to do something way under a bond. Yeah, absolutely, man. And so going out of the way to try to be the night and shining armor shows that you're trying to provide the princess with the opportunity. And it can be fun too, you know.

I think that there's a lot there. You know, maybe there's... That's great. I really like that. Creating your own fairy tale in a way, on a small scale. Yeah, man. Yeah. We're giving her the feeling of what she wants to feel from the movie she grew up with.

Yeah, it's like you're giving her that. Giving her that. And you know what happens? What I have found is when you do that, pretty soon it gets reciprocated, you know? And then next, you know, like, maybe they're playing a role that you've always wanted and play. And then maybe it's just a big giant game of role play, this whole relationship thing. Life is.

I mean, so that correlates with my theory of how life works, right? And it goes back into the idea of choosing because you're, you know, you're choosing to love. And then you're also choosing to provide your partner with those feelings. It doesn't just happen. I guess that's the point. Like it doesn't just happen. It may feel like that for a while. Like it just happened.

It's faded. And then, but eventually that kind of seems to fade. And then you have to kind of choose to keep doing it. I had an interesting conversation with one of my mentors when I was a younger man in my 20s. And he was married. And we were talking about relationships and love. And I was bouncing around, you know,

bouncing around all this, just being a. knucklehead and I was telling him like yeah you know it doesn't work relationships never work and he's like you know why and I'm like no he goes because one person is always more in love than the other person I started thinking to myself like it's pretty deep you know but then I I thought about it for a while and I'm like it made me kind of sad to think like because I was in the perspective like he was saying like oh this one person is always more in love than the other but then I thought well maybe that switches back and forth though. Like maybe the guy is with a girl and he's like,

oh, this girl loves me so much. Or maybe it's the girl. It's like, this guy's way too into me. But I've learned in my relationships, sometimes like I've felt that way. Like this person loves me more than I love them. But it's not long before I realize,

I start asking my, wow, I wonder why they love me. And then it kind of, it's like a magnet kind of like north and south pole, just moving between each other. I don't know what I'm real good answer. But it's an interesting thought to,

think that one person is always more in love. And I like to think that that moves back and forth. Yeah, I mean, sort of, it makes sense to me, like theoretically, that that is a polarity or like a center of gravity that would shift over time. Yeah. Yeah. Is it, it's, so do you think that if you get married again, you'll write another book called So She Said Yes?

I'll probably just update the last one. And then write a sentence, I was wrong about everything. Thanks for reading. That's hilarious. Yeah. Man. Oh, man. Yeah.

I don't know. Nobody does. But hey, it's cool to have this platform to talk about this stuff. I love it, man. I don't think I've had this conversation since I was a man in my 20s, man. And I love that you wrote this book because I've read it. And I think that any man who is in a relationship would benefit from reading this book. And especially,

if you haven't got it out publishing yet and you're giving away a copy or two, anybody listening to this, like you go to Kevin's page, fill out the form and get the book because I know a couple things are going to happen. One, you're going to learn some things and two is you're going to laugh your ass off because there's a lot of humor in there. And I love,

you have like this dry humor that it's just like you're reading the book and then I found myself like, I started laughing about things. And it's painful. Yeah, it does. It really does. you're a great writer Kevin and I've enjoyed both of your books so far and I'm happy you wrote it. I would if I could reach through there and force you to get the publisher and the artwork done and get it out on Amazon, I would do that.

Hopefully my words will influence you to get on it because I think people could benefit from it, Kevin. And it's it's more than just you putting out a book and getting to talk to people about it. But I think it can help people. So that's why I pump it so hard. Oh, thanks. I appreciate you pumping it. Yeah, man. Publishing thing is a bit of a challenge because I was trying to, with the first book,

I also tried it. But every publisher now basically wants you to already have a platform. Yeah. And I don't have any following. So I'm like not interesting to them. And then I'm thinking, well, what do I need a publisher for if they want me to do my own promotion? Isn't that what they're supposed to do for me?

So then, yeah, then you go self-published, but then you've got to do your own marketing, and I'm just shit at that. So I'm like, I'm just going to put it out there and just see if anybody wants it. But no, I will eventually. I just need the right cover art. And then I put it on Amazon. I'll do the audio book probably someday. That's what I liked about, you know, young, successful, and miserable was that I could get it on Audible. And I could hear your voice going through it.

And I felt that the real character came out of the book because, You got the author reading it and they know exactly how the cadence should be and how the thought should line up with the words. And so, yeah, I, um, let's let's, when you, when you get the cover done, let's come back on again and, and, I would love to hear the story about the cover art. Yeah, yeah, we'll be on before then too, but yeah. Yeah. It's, for sure. To be continued. Well, before.

I had someone do the draft for me, but it's, it didn't finish. So the cover of draft? Yeah. exactly what I want. I just need someone to do it. Because I'm not artistic. Well, you know what? Like, you can, um, there's all those things like DaVinci, like those chat GPT AIs where you just prompt the cover and then it'll pump it out for you.

It might be worth, might be worth taking again or that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good idea. That's all I have. I've heard that they're really good at that. I just haven't tried it. Yeah. It's, it's the same thing with, it's all in the, it's all in the, it's all, it's all, in the explanation of what you want, you know, to get you the right image.

So I'll send you a link. I got a couple cool programs that I use for thumbnails and stuff like that that are pretty. That's fantastic. Pretty interesting. So. Yeah. Well, before I let you go, Kav, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about?

I'm not really that on social media. I'm still on LinkedIn. so you can on LinkedIn. I'm very quiet on there nowadays. I probably post like twice a month. I'm kind of sick of social media, but I'm still on there. Otherwise,

otherwise a website, Kevin Holt.me, those are the only two places right now that I'm online. And mainly I'm excited about the dive school. Yeah. I'm reading all about how different ways you can die underwater.

It's super fascinating. But yeah, I'm going to be in Norway, in a tiny cabin for four months on my own, which would be cool, right by a lake and a forest. I'll be around Europe. If anyone's in Europe, wants to look me up,

probably most of the rest of this year. You should document that dive school, like a video journal of it, you know, or like, hey, there's day one in the cabin. I just can't do it. I know you can. I would love it if I could get around it. I just can't do it.

I'm shit at that. I'm shit at being on camera. I'm shit at talking about myself like that. It just feels like a chore. There are some people that love it. I just don't. Right. Yeah.

I'm excited for the dive school for you. That sounds amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks again, man. I've had a lot of fun being on your show. Yeah, man. I love having you.

And it's easy to talk to people who are interesting. So I appreciate it. I appreciate the book. I appreciate you having a candid book. that's honest about relationships because I don't think there's enough of that out there, man. So appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon and we'll touch base and figure some things out, man.

I love you, buddy. Thanks for coming on and we'll talk to you soon, man. Love you. Thanks for having me. Yep. Good luck. Anytime. Okay.

Aloha. Leave studio.