TrueLife - Kimberly Adams - Where The Dead Speak In Metaphor

Episode Date: May 4, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Kimberly AdamsIn this hauntingly powerful episode, we step into the sacred space where grief becomes language, and language becomes transformation.Our guest is not just a grief researcher—she is a cartographer of the soul’s underworld, traveling the globe to learn how cultures mourn, metabolize loss, and emerge more alive. With over 15 years in entrepreneurship and business consulting, she bridges two worlds: one of spirit and shadow, the other of scale and strategy.Together, we unravel the ways unresolved grief can bind us to cycles of addiction, abuse, and disconnection—and how, through psychedelic ritual, cross-cultural initiation, and honest storytelling, we might finally begin to listen to what the dead are trying to say.This conversation weaves metaphysics with marketing, mourning with momentum. It’s for anyone who has lost someone—or something—and is brave enough to ask: What now?This is not grief as diagnosis. This is grief as teacher.This is not death as end. This is death as metaphor.Enter the conversation your ancestors have already started.A Practical Guide to the Incomprehensible | KD Adams | Substacklytmarketing.co One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back.

Woo, I got a show for you today. It's going to be a heavy one. It's going to be a beautiful one. We're going to get into these ideas of grief with an incredible individual, the one and only Kimberly Adams. And I hope that this show is going to be a hauntingly powerful episode.

We're going to step into the sacred space where grief becomes language and language becomes transformation. Our guest is not just a grief researcher. She is a cartographer of the soul's underworld, traveling the globe to learn how cultures mourn, metabolized loss, and emerge more alive. With over 15 years in entrepreneurship and business consulting, she bridges two worlds, one of them spirit and the other shadow, scale and strategy.

Together we unravel the ways. Unresolved grief can bind us to cycles of addiction, abuse, and disconnection, and how through psychedelic ritual, cross-cultural initiation, and honest storytelling, we might finally begin to listen to what the dead are trying to say. This conversation weaves metaphysics with marketing, mourning with momentum. It's for anyone who has lost someone or something and is brave enough to ask, what now? This is not grief as diagnosis. This is grief as teacher.

This is not death as end. This is death as metaphor. So, ladies and gentlemen, welcome Kimberly Adams to the show. Kimberly, how are you today? Great. Thank you so much. This is so lovely to connect with you and see you. We were chatting for a while without visuals.

So this is wonderful. I'm sorry. Yeah. It's so interesting the way in which the world connects people. You know, for those just kind of tuning in right now, Kimberly and I were supposed to go to this meeting, and all of a sudden we found ourselves on what was supposed to be a group chat, and it was just the two of us.

We ended up talking for almost two hours. I know we had our own separate link. They still had theirs. I found out later. There were nine people over there. I love it. I love it. Me too.

Me too. Those synchronicitities in life that sort of bond you to the people you're supposed to meet, I believe. So you've had an incredible life, Kimberly. Like you've been through many worlds of entrepreneurship, the corporate world, grief. How did that come about? Maybe it gives a little bit of a backstory on sort of the way you've weaved your way through. Oh, how did we begin?

So I went to school at Sonoma State nearby where you are at this moment. And I knew, I think I was like 13 when I took like, learned about psychology for the first time. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's the thing, which is weird as a 13 year old, but that's fine. So I found Sonoma State and I didn't apply to any other colleges. I just went there. It's like, this is perfect, eight hours from home. Parents can't show up on my doorstep, but I can still get there from Los Angeles originally.

And I got there and it was a humanistic transpersonal existential program, which I didn't know what that meant, but it, it, It spoke directly to me. All my professors were the first wave of psychedelics. So they had gone through, like, my neurobiology teacher was an extranot, which was the high-d-lSD with two male and female therapists. You know, it just, that seemed like that's what psychology was. And I graduated and I found out that not my psychology. And I loved it so much. but I could only get a job as a behavioral therapist.

And I didn't want, it just didn't, it didn't seem to align with me. And I also danced. And so I was like, well, how do I feel my dance habit? Yeah. And so I started to, sorry, my computer just went to sleep. Apologies. There we know. So I just started looking at business because I couldn't figure out what

else to do. My mom was in real estate. And so I thought, well, okay, I'll look at that. I wasn't like, it didn't sing to me, but I was like, well, you have to make money. So I, I went back to school for real estate investing and was in commercial real estate for a number of years. But while I was in commercial real estate, I ran a wellness studio. And it was the developer's baby, and it was in this big complex that he owned. And so I ran the studio, and worked in commercial real estate for him. He was a rabbi and all kinds of weird. And I came to understand that he did DMT in that place.

He did a whole bunch of stuff before it was illegal because it had been around for a long time. He was a cool dude in Berkeley. And so I did that for a while. I still had my toe in things that I loved. And in 2011, my mother, passed suddenly. Suddenly for me. I mean, it wasn't overnight, but we had a beautiful Christmas and I had just turned 30 and she had aortic aneurysm on New Year's Eve. And she, we did get her to the hospital in time.

She did get surgery. She lived for another three months, but we thought that she was going to be around longer. And it seemed like she was only up and up that her heart failed and she. And she, went into a coma and we didn't even get there in time. And so she moved on and I was devastated. I was still young enough that I was like, no, mom, mom, I'm here forever. Like it didn't. You know, my only death was my grandfather, who I loved very much for dad, but I was young and then pets. And I didn't really understand. And at that time, I was 30 and invincible, of course, and, and, and, And like started drinking wine and really it took me down. It took me down for about three years.

And then a friend of mine introduced me to someone who served ayahuasca underground. And I, when they told me that it had the name, which I, there's different interpretations, but it was the vine of death. And I thought, well, I clearly don't understand this death thing. So, okay. And I did it for 10 years, every six months, maybe a little more often. Wow. But I couldn't let go of the alcohol. I didn't understand, like, I would have these huge stents of time.

But I just couldn't reconcile that there was this incredible, beautiful universe that my mother definitely was inhabiting. and I couldn't get there without it. And I really couldn't get in touch with that. And until I finally was finally ready to let it go, like fully let it go, I started to notice that, oh, maybe I was avoiding some things. Maybe it's not just about going and doing, you know, wild, crazy universe journeys.

Maybe there's some other stuff to look at. So I've been sober over five years now. And in that path, I just started to observe. I also, alongside that, I moved away from real estate. And I still stayed in business, but I went into marketing, which is kind of like a middle of the, like sort of in between. And that was about eight years ago. And one of the things that I realized was after my mom had,

I was doing so many things for her, not really understanding. I was like, well, this is what she did. This is, you know, maybe, maybe this will be the right path. No. No. Unfortunately not. And my marketing started in tech and then I connected with some lovely humans that got me involved in the psychedelic world professionally.

So we started up the SF Psychedelic Society, which I saw you had Danielle on here, like before. She's awesome. She is. She's wonderful. She and I and a few others kick started it again. And then we did DeCrim Nature, which was in Oakland, California. We did the legislation that got placed. I don't remember how many. Last count was 65 cities, but it was pretty awesome.

And it connected me to the psychedelic world. And so I started to do psychedelic marketing. And I had, and this is such a long story. This is only your first. It's beautiful. I love it. And then I had just like cold outreach from a beautiful center in Malinaco, Mexico called InScape. And they did Ibigen aftercare, which after people do Aboga, which is a very beautiful medicine,

psychedelic medicine, Ibogaine is just one of the alcoholides in Aboga. It can clean people up from their addictive habits and clean their bodies and minds. and minds. But then you have to figure out how if you were used to going and drinking every day or getting heroin every day or whatever it was, you to go figure out how to live. So I got to know them and their process and they're very different. It's a small, like I think there's only like 60,000 people in their town. And it's not it's not pharmacologically based. You know, it's, it's finding out how to be with yourself. And that sent me on this really interesting healing path that I got to explore that.

And since then, I've just gotten an opportunity to meet people who have had addiction issues. It started with people who were on Suboxone methadone because you have to get them off and into a short-acting opioid so that they can experience a Bogra and Ibigan. And that process, you know, I was trying to connect them with with people who could help them taper and all of these things. That's a whole uphill battle. But really, really, it was, there would be people on their last half milligram, milligram of Suboxone. And they wouldn't let it go. It didn't really have a lot of physical addiction anymore. It really was the emotional context.

And I started to dive in with people. And every person, and this is, you know, could be just the bias of my perspective. But every person I've spoken to when it began, when their addiction began, it was because of a great loss. And it was, it's not that everybody who experiences grief has an addiction of a substance. But we do, we all share it. We all share grief. We do. Everybody, I love the idea that, you know, you can't escape taxes in death. Well, yeah, you can. If you look and see, people are escaping taxes all the time. But also when you're in the transition of death, you don't, you're done. No one escapes grief, though, because we all leave someone behind. Hopefully we leave many people who loved us behind and hold our memory. But, you know, we don't, we will not escape grief. this life. And it's something that really binds us all, but we do not understand it.

Yeah. It's so powerful. That's such an awesome story. Like it totally feels it for me, it fills in so many spots to get to see who you are and how you operate, the way in which grief allowed you to understand the characteristics of people, which probably made you awesome at marketing. Like, you know, you have like this idea of, meaningful marketing where you're actually trying to go out and you're not trying to, I'm going to sell this person, this thing or that thing. You're like, I want to reach out to this person and connect with them on a level. And I don't think you can really understand how to connect with someone until you speak a universal

language like grief. And it sounds to me like your mother sort of taught you this language on some sort of level and all the teachers that you've worked with and the different plans you worked with. Like they're teaching you a language that transcends words on some level where you're able to see things in a different way. Do you feel that that incident with your mother allowed you to see the world in a different way? Of course. Of course.

I mean, first, I just realized, oh, you better crawl up. At 30, I was very arrogant and thought that I could do anything and everything. And I realized I went down pretty far and realized actually there's limitations to life. And eventually, I realized that death punctuates life. It gives us a reason for, thank you. It gives us a reason for, it gives us meaning. If it didn't end, you know, if you had everything in the world, I mean, you can look at people who have trust fund kids

and endless amounts of resource. Yep. If they didn't create it, it has a lot of meaninglessness, you know. And there's this seeking. And I feel very blessed that I had a lot of experiences with psychedelics. I had exposure growing up in California. And then, you know, just having this, just expansion in that direction. But that's all it is is insight.

And as I work with different medicines, I work with different people who are serving medicines, who are educating on medicines, it's not going to heal you. you heal you there is no person on this planet there's no substance on this planet it may give you insight or it may take away some of the pain or it may distract you or you know you are the ultimate healer and it's not um it's it's not coming from out there it's it's an inside job And my mom passing was this, it was an initiation. And that was something that really, and I know that you have your own story with this. Most everyone does.

I started to investigate and I started working with the Bogha eventually. And I had an experience where I got to see her again. which Iboga is a very interesting substance in that it's very literal, the hallucinations. They're auditory in a lot of ways. They're also very visual, but they're looking at another human in front of you. And my mother came almost immediately after a few hours. It's a very long experience. I had to get through some stuff first.

But she came and I could hug her and I could feel her. and she was like such a soft, lovable woman, and it could smell the vanilla lotion she used to wear. And it was just this like, oh, my God, you're not lost to me, you know? And it just, it brought me so much peace. But again, you can't stay there. Yeah. You know, and really a boga is not like ayahuasca.

Boga's like, you're not staying here. I'm going to torture you. Just kidding, kind of. It's a very intense experience and it's difficult. But it gives you that opportunity to not just revisit passed away loved ones. You get to see your ancestry. You get to see things you didn't even know about your world. And yeah, it's amazing.

But again, only in spite. Yeah. It makes me want to cry. Thank you for sharing that. That's a beautiful story. I feel it. It's awesome. It sounds to me, too, that some of this journey that you've been on, whether it's through plant medicine or self-exploration and doing the different kind of work, it fundamentally transforms your idea of what death is.

And maybe that's part of the problem for so many of us, is that, like, especially in the Western world, like, we see death as this thing that we should fear. Like, we try to keep people alive on these machines and we take the dignity out of dying. And, you know, what do we lose when we medicalize mourning? Yeah, so we have like four hours, right? Oh, man. So what this launched me into was realizing, first off, once I got sober, I left California. It was COVID as well, and I left and I started traveling. I traveled through the U.S. a little bit.

but I landed in Florida at one point and knew that like, you know, the Caribbean is just right there. So I have to go. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I was, I went to Jamaica because I thought, well, there's, Jamaica is one of the places where still is already legal. And so I thought, well, I'll go meet a bunch of these retreat owners and like, talk about business maybe.

or just go experience something. Oh, yeah, I experienced some stuff. I rented a car. I actually had found a woman who was somewhat of a cultural representative for the Jamaican people. She had a wonderful YouTube channel at the time. It was pretty well subscribed. And I thought she was a beautiful woman. And I still have to edit her video because it was in pieces and it got a little jumbled.

But she, I reached out to her originally because she had posted something about having a psilocybin experience and that, you know, and it was very sweet. She calls us unmelonated people because we are very white. And she said the unmelonated people need to be hit over the head. We don't need that. We don't need that. We have our community. We have our connection. We sing.

We drum. We, you know, really. we don't need to be hit over the head to reconnect to the earth and ourselves. That was before she tried it. And I met her after she had had dates of her first experience with

Gisilicid. And she realized she was like, wow, I actually was able to see some things that were really astonishing to me. But what she shared with me was she did, I interviewed her about that, but I really interviewed her that my outreach was I wanted to talk to people who had a different cultural perspective of death.

And so I interviewed her, and one of the most striking things that she shared, which a few cultures have it, where they mourn for a particular period of time. In Jewish culture, they have Shiva. You sit Shiva for seven days. In Jamaican culture, they sit for nine days, really what it is. is the body is in the house so that the whole community can come and stay goodbye. And they also come and dig the grave because it's very rural in most parts of Jamaica. And the people come help, the family dig the grave with a lot of work and they bring them food.

And they come and be with them in their grieving. But then, which spoke to me very much, on the ninth night, after they lay the body to rest and they bury the person and they say goodbye, they dance from 10 p.m. until three a minimum. They dance, they sing, they drum, they celebrate, they move, they release, they acknowledge this beautiful person that they knew and they give reverence to them. And we, I think if we're lucky, we have a weekend where there's a wake and you sit around and you go, yeah, that was, that guy was cool and you have some giggles or that woman was great and I miss them. And then you go to dinner and maybe you drink, you know, or there's, you know, some, some, you know, have like an actual, you know, place that they intentionally have like,

you know, catering hall or whatever. There's always alcohol served. And that's it. You go back to work. Maybe you have some bereavement time to go clean up their belongings or something. But, you know, there's no space. There's no space. And I started, after interviewing her, I just started interviewing a ton of people. And I had an opportunity to interview a representative of the Native American culture. He's actually a professor of Native American studies. And so he's a white man, but he's been brought into the culture. The hard part is he's in academia and many of the Native American translations of language into English are very simplistic because they have elaborate ways of speaking in their native tongue, but most things don't translate.

And so he brings a lot of those teachings into the academic world, but he lost his wife at 35. He was 35 years old. And he'd been in the Native American church for 30 plus years. And he observed their traditions. He did many of their rituals. He did the Sundance ritual. He sits with peyote. He does a lot of these things with them because they welcome him in.

And he has long gray hair and he has two braids that he wears. And during the time of grief, he unbrated one side. And that's a signal for the first year after death that everyone recognizes that half of you is undone because it was wife. And a year, a year of observing and being honored and you're also released of all of your tribal obligations for that year. And then at the end of that year, they all sit in circle with peyote and speak to the castaway loved one, that person. And then all of their other ancestors. And they honor them and they come and they recognize they're not gone. And they're not.

They're still with us. Yeah. If you want to just be literal only in memory, but, you know, they're not. And to your question, what does it teach you about death? It's not real. I mean, it's the body goes, yes. Oh, they're not gone. They're not gone.

I think for me it brings up the relationship between women. remembering and healing. What do you think of when I say remembering and healing? What are the similarities or differences or what's the relationship there? You know, I wonder and I wonder how to get my computer to stop falling asleep on me as well. I'm going to try to go to a not in this full screen to see if I can get it to stop doing that. So I think, so I'm just going to plug an engagement. incredible podcast telepathy tapes. Please do it.

Have we talked about this, telepathy tapes? Let's put it out there. I think more people should check it out. Oh my gosh. It is incredible. I'm not going to go into the full story of it because you just got to find out, but it's on a whole bunch of different Spotify and Apple and all that stuff and YouTube, I'm sure.

But I was just listening to an episode and was someone speaking to animals, actually, through telepathic means. but there was a commentary about the way in which we connect telepathically, which I think there's other episodes that talk about speaking to past on loved ones as well. But a lot of these psychedelic experiences, they kind of drop your guard from being able to speak nonverbally. You know, like that just becomes like, oh, yeah, of course that makes sense. You talk to a tree and you have a great conversation.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. I had no idea. But one of the women who was talking about speaking specifically to animals said, you know, the interviewer Kai Dickens said, you know, how can other people who want to learn how to do this, do this? And she said, it's not about learning. It's about remembering. And it's about remembering that you have that innate ability.

And I would say that that is very much true. as well is that it is we are self-healing organisms and yes the physical body will pass but these are the vehicles for and not everybody you know sees this I think a few years ago I would have been like soul I don't know what that is but I think it's just the place our soul lives for a little while to learn some new lessons and and we know how to heal we don't need we might need some new skills right but we know we know like you don't have to like will your of paper cut to heal we can definitely keep opening it if you really want to and make it difficult and shove some stuff in the paper cut you know and make it harder to be but you don't have to do

anything if you just allow you can heal but it is um it is in remembering our innate nature that there is no disconnect and remembering that we have the capacity to be with people who are not physically with us because we hold them in reverence. I'm really blessed. I live in Mexico most of the time and every year, Via de Las Marcos is celebrated and it's beautiful. Like the streets are gorgeous. The cemeteries are amazing. There's, a reverence and it's just an automatic it always happens you know and and i'm i'm actually in someone else's home but that that that's just there yeah but that's it's um the katrina is what it's called in mexican culture and um it's the representation of the fact that the skeleton is

what's left and you can find that you know the skeletal remains of you know dinosaurs you don't really go they're not all of you goes something grew from a small thing to a full-grown thing and then it passed away, the skeletal structure is still there. What makes you think just because you can't see the soul tangibly? Why would we think it's gone? You just have to remember that it's available to us, I think. Yeah, it's so interesting. I know when my son died, my niece also passed away. She died of fentanyl. And once, like, my sister and I have this incredible connection. Des, I love you if you're out there listening. And once my niece died, her and I had some incredible conversations about seeing our children everywhere. Like, you look up in

the clouds and you'll see like a form of them that kind of looks at them. You know, you're like, whoa. Or just the other day, I went to the temple with my mother-in-law. She's a Buddhist. We went to the Buddhist temple. And on the sign, it was like, the temple just happened to be on Stony Road. My niece's name was Stony. And I was like, whoa, look at Stoney over here at the temple with me waiting for me. You know, so I call it my sister. But there's something that happens when something you love so much leaves the form that you're familiar with. And all of a sudden, instead of getting to see them from time to time, you get to see them everywhere. And that to me is a form of speech. Like that is communication. That is you remembering, remembering those people and those people

being there with you and reminding you that they never left. And when I saw that sign, all of a sudden, I remember all these cool conversations I had with her about her dad and her mom. And it was like, Like, I got to revisit and have a conversation with her at this temple at the same time. But I think that on some level, it is the absence of that which you love, which allows your awareness to become more fully aware. I didn't really say that. I got actually right. But, you know, you are welcomed into a new awareness when something you love moves to a different area on some level. Do you think that's accurate or how do you feel about that?

What do you think? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I used to, I lived in Oakland for a long time, and I had a donned skylight in my kitchen. And I was preparing for my first ayahuasca ceremony. I didn't know what I was getting into. I had done psilocybin in LSD when I was a teenager, but I was 32 at times.

And I just, I kept hearing something on the roof. And there was this huge. huge black crow that was because the skylight was domed. It was having the field day. It would jump up to the top and then it would slide down. So you hear this, and then you jump up back to the top, kind of like peck. You know, the time go, and he was going over and over and over. And I was like, what are you doing?

The morning I'm about to go to the eyewascus ceremony. And I just, I remembered that pretty distinctly. And the crows are ubiquitous in Oakland. But this guy, he was really insistent of making his awareness known. And in Native America, I do have Native American blood, and I don't have much connection to it. But I do know that in a Native American culture, the crow and also, I'm also Irish, a whole bunch of things. Irish is the Celtic culture also holds the raven as the bridge of between life and death. And I just thought, is that my mom?

You know, just kind of like with you, you know? And I kid you not the second time I was leaving for Ayahuasca. It may not have been the same one, but it played the same game. It did the hot. And I was like, okay, now you're just spoken. Yeah. And I think I think it's really beautiful. Because if you look with a little bit more softness in your environment,

you, if you've had a psychedelic experience, you may have had the experience that everything is everywhere and that there is no separation. But in our waking lives and are just like driving around and walking around in our lives, you can still come in contact with that, recognizing that we are part of everything. and attempting to separate is actually where the pain is.

And that's what I came to understand grieving to be about is. It's not that we're so, it's not that grief is a punishment. It is a remembering of the beauty that you shared with someone, whether it be a parent or a child, or just a friend or sibling or, you know, partner. It, we, one thing I want to say about grief is that we perceive it to be like, okay, I'm grieving.

Well, how do we define that? It is the myriad of emotional states that you likely experienced with that person. Or a lost place or that experience. I mean, after COVID, I would say, and this came into the pathology of the DSM, I believe we all went through a collective breathing. And in 2022, the DSM-5 TR was released. It was an update of DSM-5, and they came out with prolonged brief syndrome. And that's actually, or disorder.

And that's actually what got me fired up. and I started writing and I started to write a book and then my father died. And I was like, ha ha, ha, I know nothing about grief. But I, but the prolonged death, or excuse me, prolonged grief syndrome or prolonged grief disorder is characterized by this normal processy of letting go. And much of it is characterized by. a longing. Well, yeah, there's a longing for something that isn't there.

But you can't long for something if you don't connect to it to begin with. If I've never met someone on the other side of the world, I have no sense feeling of them. I can't long for them. But if you have something close to you, of course you can, and they're not with you, yeah, you're going to long for something. And that has been pathologized. And that's what drove me to all. Because that was also part of what, when I, briefly, when I finished my psychology VA,

I worked as behavioral therapist and I worked with kids that were diagnosed with something or other. They had many diagnoses. Right. Right. But they were all medicalized and they were all given some sort of drug of pharmaceutical. And I witnessed their behaviors change. I also had just a felt, experience of them sort of dissipating because I was with them before they took it and then after.

And I had one client that we gave him a med holiday. He was 10 years old and he was six psychiatric drugs. And we tapered him down and this boy appeared who was light and lively and beautiful. And it was that his mother couldn't handle his temperament, his natural temperament, which was much more lively than her other children. And she was a single mom and it was an impoverished situation. She needed them medicated. And the last thing we should be doing is not only pathologizing grief without investigating it, first off, personally, but also medicating it.

Because the connection between grief and addiction is that the people who I work privately with people. I've helped people underground, which is why I live in Mexico. I've helped people underground get access to psychedelic experiences only after going through some emotional processes because addiction, as characterized by Johann Hari, best author on the planet, love him so much in chasing the screen, is addiction is not a substance. It's not an addiction to substance, it's not a disease. It is a lack of connection. And if you have a sudden lack of connection and you just throw a bunch of drugs on top of that,

that's just like insane, but that is what happens. That was the first thing I did was I reached towards, I had Kaiser Permanente at the time as a healthcare. I have. So many thoughts about that, but I won't go there right now. I went in and I asked for grief counseling and I came out with a prescription for low return and I couldn't get any grief counseling. My mother had just suddenly died.

And the problem was I told them I was drinking and you can't mix alcohol in low return. I didn't care. I wasn't going to stop. You know? And so I numbed it and I numbed it and I numbed it and I, prolonged it by numbing it. I didn't feel. I didn't have the skills. And it's it breaks my heart that we're pathologizing something that is a natural process. It's so well said. I have the whole

DSM like it just seems like a fancy way to slap a label on something get people back to work, you know, or like okay here it is. And like once you start seeing it from that angle and the story I think is great underscore of it. Like, it seems like our whole society on some level, it just doesn't want to deal with it. It's like, okay, just give them a pill. Just give them this thing. You know, you start factoring in. What happens to the people that go, you go and you get educated, get all this debt,

and then you learn from a textbook that was probably written by the pharmaceutical company, and then they go in to be doctors. And like, it just seems like we've gotten so far away from that which can actually heal us. And you start learning these very difficult lessons when you start losing people. You're like, what the hell is this pill going to do? Like it doesn't do anything except make me more separated from the people I love. Now I just need this pill and I feel better. But I haven't dealt with any of the grief.

I haven't dealt with any of it on some levels. And I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. Kim, on some level, I'm worried that that's where the psychedelic movement is heading towards. Like I see all these certificate programs and I see these people come down that they're probably really well-inted. attention, but what does it mean when you take someone who hasn't yet fully broke, who fully hasn't had the suffering? And then you give them ayahuasca and all of a sudden they're a teacher now? Like, I don't think it should work that way. Like, it rubs me the wrong way. Like, wait, you're taking these people that are actually seeking and you kind of turn them into suckers. Just give me 10 grand.

Just give me 15 grand. And then I'll heal you. I'll give you the certificate. And now you can go and heal people. No, you can't. Like, we're robbing the next generation of the healers that are actively seeking to become more connected to the planet. Is that too harsh of a critic, you think? No, no. I mean, we were really naive when we did the decriminal nature. We were just like, oh, we're just going to save ourselves. You know, we were all professional adults that also were holding, growing, or selling.

Yeah. Be honest. You know, and we wanted to protect ourselves. That's it. We simultaneously filed for a church status as well. So we had protections. Because we, it's not like, you know, a ton of us had been arrested or anything like that. It was more about how do we make access more accessible?

How do we get the people to feel less fearful about these experiences? Because they're already kind of scary. But there's how, I mean, my, my unchosen but seems to be unfolding path is that I was exposed very early to people who were medicated. And I just was like, this isn't the way. And I don't think, and bless a lot of people who do microdosing of various degrees, it's another form often how it gets translated into day to day

is just like you're replacing your pill, your SSRI with your plumbing. It's the new Prozac. Yeah, and it's not. Because you know, Prozac stops working at a point two, you got to up the dose, up the dose, up the dose. You can keep upping the dose of your mushroom microdose, but it's not a microdose anymore, and it will stop working because it's like, you're not listening. You know, it gets, it gets, I think it gets offended. I think the

plants benefit. I agree. Yeah. So the pathologization of first grief, it came through the backdoor for me, I had a life-threatening experience and I had resulting PTSD. And I had seen people talk about, you know, veterans who get scared when a loud noise happens. But I didn't really understand PTSD. And then, you know, I went through the process of healing from that. And I will say that Iboga was a huge support in that and is incredibly beautiful in its nervous system regulation for about four to six months, but you better be learning how to do it

yourself during that four to six months. I learned that the hard way the first time I did Bogah, because I got out of the other side of the six months and I was like, it's like, calm space. I want it back. But what PTSD appears in like when you're observing it in another person and in yourself is these waves out of nowhere of fear, anxiety, like panic, the desire to run, hide, you know, sometimes people fight. There's a methodology that's a fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. Fawn is where you utilize your mind to be like, well, I can kind of pretend to be something and please don't eat that somebody, but I'm actually somebody else.

but I'm going to show you this really nice, happy person. Please don't eat me. All of that, all of that are normal mechanisms of the system. All of it. We have an amygdala. We have a reptilian brain. All of those things are responses to keep us alive. Those waves were so reminiscent of what grief felt like.

I realized these are one and the same, but a slightly different causation. And my experience of that was in many people who in any form, even if, even if you are blessed to have not had a human pass on in your life just yet, you've witnessed some loss. And there's the 3 a.m. wake-up calls of like panic of like that feeling that something's missing. Or just walking by and you smell something that reminds you of that lunch that you shared with that person. or, you know, something, and it hits you like a ton of bricks. It came to me through PTSD that I realized this is human nature. This is not some pathologization.

You know, people, I understand the necessity to name patterns. But if you have decided that that is your identity for the rest of your life, that's, it's time to take a little bit of a broader, like, observation of the world because these are just natural responses that if we allow and we recognize them as their as them as messengers and their teachers to say wow that really sucked maybe I should never love again well actually give you we give you some some feedback that maybe actually loves you know it's kind of important it's worthwhile you know but It hurts so that we can see where we can hopefully avoid some pain in the future,

stay alive for longer. These are all like survival mechanisms, but if you stay in the survival, the richness of life is dampened. So I don't know if I answered your question. I just kind of went out of the engine there. I think it makes perfect sense. It's such an interesting time. And I think we're beginning to see grief permeate society.

You know, when you look at such a large boomer class or such a large class of people, you know, we always do this thing where like we put the labels on and we break up people into generations. But what if we're just one organism? And right now we're going through this catalyst where a large part of us are beginning to move on to a different part, whatever that mystery might be. How can we not all feel that as a collective. society in our communities and in our world when such a large part of us are moving on, there's going to be a lot of turmoil. There's going to be a lot of chaos. And I see us as like

changing form. Like we've gone through this caterpillar consumption stage. And now maybe we're emerging as this new butterfly. We're emerging as something else. And we're trying to figure out, okay, how do we, what is this a wing? What do we do with this thing? You know, we're starting to move around a little bit. And there's all this just beautiful chaos that's happening and opportunities happening. And I know that we run in some of the same circles and we see so many people talking about similar things and people are trying different ways to get this thing moving in different direction. So I think what you said is not only applies to some of PTSD, but applies to all of us as a community because we're kind of going through it as a community. You know, it's interesting

to look at it through that bigger lens. Is that how you see it through the bigger lens? I don't think anybody who's self-aware or, you know, paying attention. could deny the fact that we were all changed by COVID. Yeah. Because we were all faced a lot closer, whether perceived or literal, with death. And, you know, there's lots of conspiracy theories and all of those things, but that's fine. And that's fine. All of that's part of it is how we decided to digest this experience of loss, just massive

loss and we're you know as as Americans and people who are you know directly affected by America which is everybody you know we are also going through an interesting transition and there is a I feel like there's been some lights shown on the fact that the American dream is not real and what what is going it's it's in that space between when something fell away but nothing has replaced it yet. Like, well, if that's gone, then why are we here? You know, what a beautiful question. Yeah.

Yeah. Please, please. Why is that question? Why are you here? You know, and I think in like the, you know, the great resignation and the people like transitioning from lifelong careers and just saying, uh-uh, I'm not doing this anymore. I think is a beautiful thing that came out of it, you know, even if it. It meant that some people didn't, you know, earn as much money or like, whatever.

You know, like we had a transition and we're still in a transition. We are always in transition. But there was really a marked one that I think we all can point at and we shared. And we can say, we all know what grief is in that regard. You can feel it. So what does that mean as a human being who's looking at it and freaked out? it, what are you feeling? And I oftentimes will ask people, my, my intervention with folks with addiction has branched in many directions, but as I mentioned, it started with spoxone and

methadone, but it really was, it just expanded out to people who were on pharmaceuticals for a number of years and not ready to let go. And what many of the pharmaceuticals do is they dampen your emotional experience. And for me to say, what are you feeling was like broken JPEC is awful. Well, I think I'm, no, no, how are you feeling? Well, I think that maybe, no, it's your brain. It's brain thinking again. What are your body sensations?

And something that I love and my teachers of people who've served me, Oboga five times now, six in probably November, I think, is the next time I'm doing it. What are their names? Patrick and Michelle Fishley, beautiful human beings. And I think they'll be on your podcast very soon. Of course they were. Yeah. They go back to Africa, which is where Abogas is from, and they study with the Buiti,

which are the people who carry the medicine. And one of the teachings that Patrick and Michelle shared with me via their teachings is what are your five senses giving you? What is the immediate environment that you're experiencing? And now, of course, when you're under the influence of a substance, you're getting more information than what your five senses are giving you because we're attuned to our five senses, but it can ground us back in this reality

when we're suddenly taken to another universe or, you know, in the Iboga space, you're actually brought very close into con you're taking inward more than outward to let us serenergic experiences take you out into the universe this is more what is my soul telling me and oh is it confronting because you look at your it's the creepiest thing and not creepy but weird weird because as individuals we look at ourselves in the mirror and we only see our reflection or a photograph off or what we're doing right now. I'm looking at myself, but I look weird to me

because I'm not used to looking at myself this way. But when you're in that space, you meet your soul and they usually are represented by an absolute replica of yourself and you look in your own eyes. And it is trippy, very silly, say the least. But you have this opportunity. to pull yourself back in, what are your five senses saying? Because you're not taken out of your body when you're in these experiences. If anything, you're brought further in. So if something is too

much for you, whether you're under the influence of a substance or you're just walking through the world and it's a little much, do you feel your feet on the ground? Can you feel your breath? You feel your expansion and contraction. Can you feel the sun on your skin? What do you hear? What do you, what are you smelling? You know, and I think there's some basic skills that we have forgotten that we have, particularly when we're, one, I mean, you and I may not ever meet in person. It's beautiful that we have this opportunity.

I hope so. But a lot of our life during COVID became this. we stop seeing other people touching other people. And it is, that's another layer of the remembering to go back to your, what's the relationship between remembering and healing. Well, remember what we're capable of in 3D. You know, yeah, I can go on for years, but I know you said you had a few questions. Yeah, it's beautiful.

You know, there's something to be said about the felt presence of the other. And I think we've lost that in COVID a little bit. But in some ways, it's like being in an isolation tank. Sometimes that sense becomes hyper aware when you don't use it for a while. Sometimes you could fade away. But if you, it can become more aware. And I think that happened to me and lots of other people. But particularly the felt presence of the other, when you sit down next to somebody and you can feel what you're thinking, you can feel the flush that comes in the face when there's a joke exchange.

between people or when there's a nice pat on the hand or someone gives you a hug like there's something so beautiful in that felt presence of the other that may or may not thoroughly translate all the way through like a Zoom call or something like that but yeah remembering and that let me let me go ahead I got some questions stacking up over here and if I don't get to them Kim I will just ask questions and our conversation will be awesome but I won't allow my audience to participate so let's let's get some people in here Clint Kyle's the psychedelic Christian podcast You know, everyone should be checking it out. He has some great guests.

He's an incredible speaker, and he thoroughly understands the felt presence of awareness. He says, remember, remember. I love that, Clint. Thank you. Joshua Moyer, the Jimmy Hendricks of our time. I think this guy's an incredible artist. Don't even get me started on his new album coming out. This guy's amazing.

Thank you, Joshua. He says that, is the separation from death and the avoidance of grief a manufactured Western idea? What do you think? I have lots of more interviews to do for sure. And thank you, Josh, so much because I have a dear friend, Jeannie Fontiana. She was a medical doctor, and she wasn't in Los Angeles. She's since his transition to legislation and a huge psychedelic advocate as well. But she, in her practice, she was one of the, she created one of the first,

palliative care rooms so that when you are sitting with your loved one who's passing on, you get a couch. It seems surprising that you would have like comfort during the time that someone's passing. But in that, she, I interviewed her. I'm going to redo the interview because it was just a little funny sound problem. But, but she shared that we used to do much like what the Jamaicans do and many other cultures do. We have the bodies of our past on loved ones with us for a period of time, not for a viewing, not done up beautifully. There was a, there was a practice where people used to take pictures with their dead, which is odd when they first being, I mean, to me it seems odd, but it was being able to take that last opportunity to be physically in their presence,

even though the spirit has moved on. But what slowly happened was we used to die at home. Most people died of old age at home or illness. And our loved ones were with us. In the most abrupt way possible, COVID took that away because it made people believe that you couldn't be around that person because they were so contagious. and many other

topologies have done that, many other diseases have done that where people are not allowed to physically be with that person in their passing because they needed to be quarantined. There was a belief of that. So we used to be with our dead

when they were passing in that process. And there's a beautiful woman I have on my substack who I interviewed Asha Caravelli. She's a death dula. And she is there. She is the person

that sits with those people in that space and their loved ones, much like a birthing dula is there to bring a life into the world. She's there to help it pass and help others understand the process of what's going on. Because it's not like a, now you can go real fast, but most people, if they're lucky enough, they get to sort of ease into death. And that is all but hidden from us now. And it's not so much that it's exclusively a Western issue.

It's that we have believed that that is something that should be separate from us. And we shouldn't look at that. And we put people in old folks homes. That's just a lot. That's so much. I don't have time for this. I have to work. You know?

And so, you know, above and beyond that, how do you say goodbye to someone you didn't even get to say goodbye to. How do you reconcile the feelings of grief if you didn't get to see that natural progression of death? I didn't with my mother. I did with my father. I was with him in the hospital for two weeks before he passed. He couldn't speak to us, but he was in a coma, but I was there and witnessed his body moving on. And it wasn't pleasant. And that's probably why. we avoid it. And it's, grief is not pleasant,

but it's not, it's not that it is a bad thing. It's, it, it is all of our emotions. It's just that they come at inopportune moments. Oh, so does death.

So does birth, if you think about it, but, you know, I'm, I'm not someone who's ever made people, but the people who have made people on this earth. You know, a lot of the challenges that people want to schedule birth.

I also want to schedule death, but it's illegal. We can't allow people. We can allow our pets to move on, but we can't let people move on. So we can't schedule those, which is a blessing and a curse a little bit. But if it's so removed from us, then how do we confront something we never even saw? So I don't have the answer, Josh, sorry. Yeah.

I've got some insights into it. Okay. The Western system, it just kills me in so many ways. You know, we talk about, like, the root word of pallative is pal, which means to hide. But you mentioned on the topic of birth. Like, you know, for me, my son died, like, the first day in delivery. And I'll never forget, like, it was so,

I remember the doctor coming in and, and, you know, telling me, like talking to me, but it was, his voice was like a jet engine coming from a hummingbird. Like, I couldn't fathom this, no way. I'm like, what the fuck is going on here? And we got to spend time with my son, Ocean, until the doctors came and, like, we have to take your son now. And I'm like, they had to rip them from my arms. You know, but then you start, this is something that's pretty dark, but at the same time, like, why? Why do you have to take my son now?

And I would challenge everyone to go and look why they want to take a child an hour or two hours after you've been with them. Like they take the child and like they use that child to maybe save other children. At least that's how they put it. But like you can put it in different terms too. Like wait a minute, this is my son and you're going to take him and now he's going to be medical research. Now he's going to be cut up for parts in some ways.

Like that to me builds a fire. inside of me that rages so hard. Like, I hate the system for that. Like, you're going to take this child of mine. But, like, again, it's around death. And once you start thinking about that long term, like it does things to you, whether it's your father passing on or my son passing on, the way our system treats death is it defiles the dignity of someone moving through your life in so many ways. And I think that's one reason I'm so drawn to what your doing and what so many people in the psychedelic movement are doing is that they're giving people like you and me and so many others ways to deal with grief or ways to at least expose it that people don't

have like if you just have these instances happen to you whether it's a loved one or you know someone in your life that's ripped away from you like there's no real tools you can go and do that to learn how to do it unless you seek them out yourself but maybe it's in that seeking maybe it's in that seeking that you find the tools you need to to deal with grief. But that was kind of a long segue, but I kind of felt it burning in my chest right there. So thank you for letting me share that with you right there. It's, it's, it's traumatic. It's real things.

And it hasn't happened to you yet. It's going to. There's, you don't escape it. Like you have a front row seat to your own personal apocalypse and it's on its way, but we get to see it happen all the time. So yeah, let me, let me jump over here to Robert, Robert, Sean Davis. credible individual. Thank you so much, Robert, for always being here, for having the incredible insights. He says, too often, loss becomes the catalyst by which a lifetime of frustration,

grief, and depression is exposed. And it can create a downward spiral. It is so important to not get lost and let it become our identity, especially in the face of how cruel the world can be as an adversity tool for growth and advancement. I have the best audience in the world over here. Listen to Robert. It's so beautiful. He's got one more coming in over here too. Let me get this on the screen for you, Robert. He says the tendency to want to teach post-Iawaska is normal, as it provides a supernatural boost to the recognition of unity and connectivity. As some have said, the first time can be like 40 years of counseling. The common event is that it imparts a very real drive to become more connective through helping, healing, teaching, and encouraging others. It also

unfortunately invokes the Dunning Kruger effect due to the temporary inheritance of the singularity knowledge. Oh, look at this guy, Robert. I love you. It's so beautiful. This guy's amazing. Thank you, Robert. Any thoughts on that one there, Kimberly? Oh, it's interesting. Yeah, that particular knowledge of, well, I've had singularity experiences and then I've had insane expansive. I think to me it was a little different. I guess maybe it could be, but one and the same. But my first experience, my first experiences with ayahuasca, I felt like so light and free. And then when I felt it wearing off, I was coming back in and was like, oh, this thing again, this body, this boon.

You know, and yes, I agree with you. Thank you, Robert. we do feel like, I mean, it is a lot of information. DMT hits you. DMT is an element of in ayahuasca, and if you smoke DMT, you also would know that it's like, well, I don't have any space for all this knowledge.

And it's almost like, I think in those moments, that's when you really contact that limitlessness of the human being and life, really. and like just life in general because it does feel like so much information there it can't even be contained in this body you know and like this this is just our little learning ground and then we go back into the real world because this this I don't know what this is hard but it it does let you recognize in a way that we are limitless except for this physical experience. There are limits.

There are limitations. But if we didn't have them, there wouldn't be as much value placed. You know, and I think that's true of why we grieve. Because it is, once you get through some of an accept and allow for some of those really big, hard experiences, it is an initiation because it allows you to recognize this is so important. this this this this life is so precious and it it's if if you've forgotten that death will visit you and it will remind you and it might be the snail you step on you know it you know it could be

as it's as simple as that and it might be tragic but it's um not that the death of a snail is not tragic because it is. But, you know, we, we are given really big swaths of information by psychedelics. And that's why it's not really useful for all people because it might be too much. I remember, I remember sitting next to Danielle at a, we were, it was when Michael, how to change your mind. Pollinator. Pollinator. He was speaking and we were tabling in the front hallway

and we had like a little banner saying we were in the second of like society is in Francisco and this woman walked up. She saw it. I could see it from across the room. She saw our banner and she she's like, I've been in therapy for the last 10 years because of a psilocybin experience. And I was like, I don't give it to you. I don't know.

I'm sorry. I don't know. But like, sometimes it's too much. It's not that. And sometimes you don't need to be able to hit over the head. Sometimes just, you know, and that that is indicative of the grieving experience, it does seem like too much. And it seems like rock bottom.

And that's what addiction is. That is the blessing of addiction. It's not a disease. It's teaching you something. And I've had friends. I have a beautiful friend who survived cancer. and she was so grateful once she did. And she said, I'm so grateful for that teacher.

She just visited me in Mexico and we were sunbathing. And she was showing off her new beautiful movies. Nice. Yes. She's thriving and she's healthy and she's grateful because she would not have been the warrior that she is. if she didn't fight through that. And I don't know your wife, but I have a feeling.

Thank you. It is. It's true. Like I, for those people that find themselves on the end of a tragedy, like in our family, we're going through one now. We're, my wife had recently had, she had like eight weeks of chemo and then we had the surgery and all the cancer is, is out of her body. but they're still, because it was so close to stage four, you know, they were going to do more chemo

and there's talk of radiation. So there's all these incredible decisions. But I wanted to share with everybody that when part of you dies, something else grows back. It's not easy. You got to nurture it. You have to feed it and you have to believe in it. And that's where the ideas of this faith and you have these metaphors of the seed, not knowing what is going to grow, but something grows back when something dies.

And like for me, that speaks to the idea of suffering and surrender. Like you have to really embrace it and be like, that part is gone. Like your whole life changes. Like when you get a diagnosis like that, like you quit your job, you just start focusing on all this stuff. And it seems so chaotic. But as you start moving through, you realize, oh, my God, I finally starting to become the person I want to be. I see so much change in my wife from this incredible. uncertainty of not knowing what's going to happen or from going to be here to being like,

you know what? I'm going to start living my life the way I've always wanted to. And there's like this, it's almost like, oh, like there's this, there's this sunshine. There's this ray of light. There's this beauty that emerges from knocking or holding hands with death. Like being that close to it fundamentally changes who you are and how you operate in the world. And it's the only way. I think that's the nature of language. It's like, okay, if this is what you want, here's how you do it. Are you brave enough to walk through it? And that's, you know, the initiation might not be walking through the flame,

but understanding that you are the flame. And I think that that's something that death can teach us is like, oh, and you can't, you can't learn it from a book. You can't learn it from a lecture. You know, it's a gesture. It's the romantic love of life reaching into you and building a relationship. And like that to me, you start talking about Shiva and the different masks that they wear. But like you realize that's the, it's it's one and the same.

And when you get to see death on that level, you get to have a profound love for it the same way you love other things. And that's what grief is beginning to teach me on some level. And I hear it in you have an everyone go check out Kimberly Substack. She writes about all these things and all these incredible different avenues of it. But I think on some level, like death is a teacher is probably. probably the most profound teacher you can have. Thank you for bringing her up. I appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you are so correct that, I mean, why on earth would we have goddesses like Callie and Cullin? And, you know, and some of the other destruction gods and goddesses. Yeah. Because you can't keep creating. You have to destroy to make space. You have to.

There's no way. There's not enough. If we all kept living, we really enjoy sex. So we will keep making new people. If we all kept living, there would be no place on this earth anymore. So, you know, we need to make space. But also the point that you brought up that you expand and you make something grows out of what's lost. Yeah.

Absolutely. And to go back to Robert's perspective, like, you know, you get this. incredible of information, if you had anything, if you, like, stood in front of a fire hose and you tried to block that, do you think that would work? If you tried to block the feelings that come up, that come up in grief, that come up, which grief, by the way, you know, Elizabeth Cougler-Ross said, five pages of grief, oh yeah, no, we got more than that, and they're not linear. And it is every emotion that you may not even have a word for that comes to the surface, it's just the human condition.

And if you come at that, one, just you personally trying to block it, you will be unsuccessful, my friend. You know, and then on top of it, if you try to pour alcohol like I did for a long time, or you try to pour a substance or anything on it, it is not going to get rid of it. It is going to suppress it. It is within the allowing, because if you let there be space, you can have space. But if you keep pushing it away,

if you went to the doctor with your wife and said, yeah, we understand that you say that we need to do all these things, but we're not going to do any of them. We're just going to pretend like this isn't happening. What would take place? Same thing. Go ahead and try to tell a woman in labor,

I'm not ready to meet your baby or have her say, I don't think I would have this kid. same thing in death. It's not like you get to avoid it. It's just like this is just part of it. And allow for that because I think some of our greatest teachers are when things are destroyed. Because I think one of the things, I mean, one of the reasons I also left California, I was sick of everything being on fire all the time.

And so I wanted to just be away from so much of that destruction. But something that, especially being around mycologists and people who love fungi, something that a lot of them have taught is that if you don't destroy that land with fire, some of those mycelium networks can't thrive. They need to be completely charred down so that not just the, my cilial networks, but a bunch of plants that didn't have a chance for the past 50 years when all of these other things have crowded them out. You know, I was unfortunately in L.A. during the fires, and the Pacific Palisades had not burned for 50 years. That means there was species that had taken

over that didn't allow for those other species to grow. Now there's a chance for them. That is also true in death. If you hold on and you keep your person that you live, love on a respirator and all of that stuff just to keep their bodies alive. You're not letting yourself have space. You're not giving them the opportunity to move on. I know my mom has been reborn. She is having a great time. My dad's still, it's only been a couple of years.

He's still probably in the barrio. I'm not sure, but he's still got some stuff to work through. But, you know, like, you have to make space. Just do, you know. Yeah. It's well said. And there's so many of the lessons, like especially about community when someone moves on or someone's on the tragedy. Like you, when I think of, what is my daughter learning?

What is my daughter learning watching all this happen? And we get so caught up in our own grief sometimes. It's hard to realize the teachings that are happening for other people. You know, there's so many great biographies written by people that talk about losing a parent early. And these people go on to do incredible things. Well, maybe it's because they face tragedy. at such a young age and that their lens of the world is completely different. And so people that may find themselves in grief at this time, it helps to look around and see

all the new growth, not in your own life, but like in your community. Like you're, and I think grief on some level forces you to ask for help because it's so overwhelming. And a lot of us have a problem with asking for help. But in these times, like if you don't ask for help, you're going to be all alone. And that fire hose just will not let up. It just comes firing at you. So what are your thoughts on asking for help in times of grief?

A dear friend of mine is going through the loss of her father just happened a little less than two months ago. And she's with her mother. Her mother historically have some pretty gnarly background in history. And I shared with her that and I had this experience as well. that's why I could share it with her and, you know, why we need each other. I remember my father's way of grieving when my mother passed was kind of old standbys, which was whatever handle of whiskey, and just telling us all of the things that he had lost and forgetting that we lost our mother, you know.

And sometimes, and my friend is having this experience now, the the hard thing to remember is that the identity that you have on that person, in this case, she lost her husband, but my friend lost her father. And unfortunately, and fortunately, we can get remarried.

And we can, you know, there's in it, you can't ever replace a person, but you can, you can find another love and, you know, and might be better for it.

But you, unfortunately, the real hard ones is you can't, replace biological mothers and fathers. That one's a tough one. And I just reminded her that she, that I reminded my friend that her mom is forgetting that she lost her father when she's dealing with the death of her husband. You know, like these identities that we place on that person cloud our ability.

And I was really, really blessed when my mother passed. I had two friends from college, drive down from Rhode, California with me, and one of which was a musician, Adrian Chamazade. Bless her. She wrote a song and got into the recording studio, and it was so beautiful. And it was specific for my mom, and it was about, she had met my mom, and she had written this beautiful song, and she played it for everyone on the guitar and sang it. And I have a recording of it. It's just absolutely magnificent. And it's that step away.

Because even though she had met my mom, she didn't feel as much as I felt. And she didn't feel as much as our family members felt. So she was able to create something that helped everyone unite. And I think particularly, I mean, there's some interesting conversations about people who are advocates for different communities. and them not doing it perfectly. I saw something on social media saying, like, celebrate the imperfect advocate

because they might screw it up, but they're at least advocating for you. Like, they don't know your experience, you know? Of course they don't know your experience. If they did, they'd be stuck in the mud like you. And stay in the mud, go ahead, ride around in it. But remember that there's others. Remember that there's other people that you can talk to.

And I think, whether it be experience of grief, an experience of loss, an expansion that is beyond your ability to harness at this time, recognize there are other people who've walked it and have space. You know, I mean, again, to your point, when something dies, their space made for something new. if you if you if you if you can't if you can't if you can't make space other people around you might and if they can't okay move away from those people right now but there are others don't lock yourself away please reach out you know and and like that's one of the things that is beautiful about a wake at least we do have wakes and funerals at least those things exist but there's there can be a

other ways to honor our loved ones. And we can expand. You don't have to limit it to that. If you feel like if you just went to the doctor and somebody just told you that you were, you have prolonged grief syndrome and you better shape up, maybe get some other opinions, you know, and please for the love of God, don't take the pills. Try not to reach for something outside of yourself that is a substance, but try to look for those who've walked it. You know, you, you, I was, I felt really blessed that, you know, you and I had that happenstance of a conversation.

And that we got a chance to know each other and know that we have this thing in common that we walked this path. And, and we're, neither of us are done with it. There's, there's plenty of other people that we're going to lose. And at this moment, at least, because it's far away from me and I can think about it in that way. I'm grateful because I did cut myself off during the time that I was really suffering with PTSD. I shut my world down. And I did not, I couldn't really experience the world very much.

And I felt really blessed. I had a friend who I spoke to via voice message and by the phone, but I couldn't be around another person at that time. And that was a gift. Try and reach out. Try to remember there's others that I've walked it, you know. And what you're doing and sharing the voices of people and your own voice. I know you shared that it's a learning process for you, but what a gift.

Yeah. Well, right back at you. Like, you have such a rich background in psychedelics. You know, just to make sure, like, how are you okay on time? Like, we just blew through like almost an hour and a half. And like I felt like it was 10 minutes. So I was like, I've had asked her. And I failed to ask you before we started.

Are you okay on time? I'm good. I'm good. I don't know how long your audience can keep up with this, but I got questions stacking up over here. Oh, yeah. Go for it. Go for it. Let's go back to my friend Clint over here. Clint, again, the Psychedelic Christian podcast. Check it out, everybody. He says, our society prioritizes convenience above all else. Death is a major inconvenience. Yes, Clint. Like, this is exactly, I think, what we're moving from. Like, it doesn't have to be. Like, it, it, It will hurt. It's painful and it is an inconvenience, but maybe it's the greatest teacher we can get. I think that that's sort of underscoring so much of what we're talking about today.

I know that Clint has an incredible background in Christianity, and he's got a lot of cool thoughts on that too. Robert, back again, he says, great analogy, Kimberly, of being hit over the head. In terms of the significance of the entire psychedelic experience, it further reinforces how much Western society has set back progression for our understanding and integration. of the most natural and holistic elements of universal healing. If we knew the totality of what we were missing, there would be absolute unity to force change from those who restrict progression. They fear it because historically, it challenges the entire power structure. Beautifully said.

What are your thoughts on that, Kimberly? My first thought is there's this adorable little cartoon of like, like just the tips of some fingers that are coming up and they're like, to each other. but it's actually the universe because it's all one hand. You've seen that little cartoon. That's like when you see you've got to force the structures. They're trying to repress.

That's the finger that's trying to repress us. This one's having a grand old time flitting around the world. That's me. And this one's staying put and doing all things right. And you know, but we're all, we need each other to show each other the light and the shadow. And, you know, if there wasn't, I think I will say this because I get to go run back to Mexico soon. And have a little bit of separation. I think the gift of the Trump presidency, which I'm sorry everybody who's on either side and want to fight me, go ahead.

But the gift is that there is such extreme distraction that becomes so evident in many of the actions that are taking. taken right now that like it's like oh my blah blah blah like I'm going to take this really hard stance and then the next day it's flipped it it almost like there's a there's meditation that I've taught many of my clients that um both I used to teach yoga but then also just my like therapeutic clients um where we go into just like a breathing exercise and you know just don't introduce anything other than just like learning that we can be calm and then I ask them to drum up a really difficult scenario in their lives and just notice the physiological changes and then go back into that breathing and that got them into this sweet space before. And it might take a little bit of time,

but the truth is that any emotional experience is it basically the body can only hold it for about 90 seconds unless you remind it. If you keep going, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry, I'm angry, you can stay angry as long as you want for decades. But you can, also recognize that it is a wave that comes through. And that's true of grief. That's true of PTSD. That's true of the joys. And recognize that they're,

they're fleeting. Celebrate them when they're there because they're not always going to be here. So be grateful for them. If you want to fight, fight. Oh, that feels good. You like, I've never, I've never actually, it's funny because my go-to, I'm like, I'm 5'4. And so I, like, I, like, I,

think that I'm scary. But I'll say to my friends, you know, like, they're having a hard time. I say, oh, you want me to beat them up for you? I have never been in a fight in my life. But I think it's empowering to think that you could do something. Yeah. But we're all part of this one thing that is part of something bigger that we can't even see. And you can fight.

you can you can be astonished and you can be overwhelmed and you can feel all of those things and you're still okay. You're still doing just fine. And I think yeah, I think

it's beautiful that we have the opportunity to feel all that. That was one of the things when I got sober that I was like, oh my God, maybe I can feel. That's a gift. Really, is. Yeah. It's really well said. And there was a, in our, in our previous discussion,

you had brought up a lens to which I had never even thought of before. And I was hopeful that you could share it with people. It's the idea that maybe psychedelics is yoga all over again. Well, that was, that wasn't mine. So the gentleman I mentioned that I, right, a rabbi. Yeah, the rabbi slash commercial developer slash lots of other things. So he was a yoga studio and wellness center and he had watched the rise. He's in his 60s, 70s now, I think. So he'd seen like yoga come to the US and become its billion dollar industry. And, you know, and it started with the teachers that came from the other areas of the world and, you know, Padabwe Joyce and Ayangar and all of these people who represent these styles of dialogue. Shangai, Angar, those different types of yoga.

And then they people, they taught other people who then were Westerners, and the Westerners were like, I see financial gain here. And they like, there's a whole other thing. And then they decided to create their own yoga style. So that is not uncommon to the psychological makeup of psychological theory and those that are trying to be placed. The most interesting thing that I find is, I studied. all these theories. I thought they were fascinating

and that's all they are theories but we have glommed onto them and we've decided this is the thing. Internal family systems, the you know, I don't know, fill in the blank. In psychology, you know,

attachment theory, whatever you want to take. You can take that and you put it into the lens of psychedelic experience. Good luck, but you could try and you can say I know because I have taken this substance and I have this experience

that I know how to manage it for you. You can say that. Now, I will give the caveat that I really could not have done ayahuasca alone. I was very, very grateful to have a sitter. Someone who had traversed those spaces for a decade before me, underground, humble, beautiful woman.

She asked me how much I needed to compensate her. And she said, somebody gave me a chicken once. You know, like, she wasn't for the money. But that being said, I was happy to exchange money for her time. And I say that because then I've also mentioned to Boga, which can kill you. It is cardio toxic. you damn well better go get an EKG and go get that blood panel before and if you encounter someone who says that's cool don't worry about it run but also recognize that like there's people who have walked to this before so there's value there there's definitely value there but when they become a cult leader it's not value ad you know like yoga has has been an interesting case study because it's disseminated into this is my personal style of yoga and I say

this is the only way to do it there is the danger of that it's already coming true in the psychedelic field I have experienced these things I've decided and then there's people who are doing these cocktails of all of these different psychedelics together and I'm personally terrified by that because I used to go to raves I've seen the people O'D on the floor you know and like I don't want people being reckless. And you know what? There was that nine perfect strangers. Did you say that Netflix series?

I have seen that, yeah. So that's a perfect example of the dangers. And how interesting that Hollywood decided to serve that up is the first representation. You know, it's almost like a cautionary tale. Recognize if you can just step back, just step back a little further and recognize that you are always the best healer for yourself, only for yourself, not for other people. Yeah.

You're going to be way better off and recognize that people can teach you skills and you might have some afterfeed muscles, just like you go to a personal trainer and you're like, well, you injured something or, you know, PT or whatever. You do need somebody to be like, hey, do this and it feels better. But they're not your God, you know, and whatever you're, you're, relationship is to God, recognize that it's not going to come in a human form. It just doesn't. You know, I'm sorry, people who believe in Jesus.

He's already gone. So, you know, Easter had the whole, you know, thing. But, but, like, it's recognized that if there is a God sense in your world, that it's intangible and it's kind of that way for a reason. It's not going to show up in a singular person or a singular substance. It may open your eyes, but it isn't everything. And one of the things that I really love about what the psychedelic movement has done in the 12-step movement, which if those that have gone through addiction and had experiences with 12-step, the psychedelic 12-step model, it says step zero is the experience of God, which is through psychedelic experience. mean like marrying God or you know living with God or you know um being um forgive me my computer

fell asleep again I forgot to keep waking it up um uh recognize that it's not going to come from something that you can grasp it's it's ineffable for a reason and I know that's one of the things that psychedelics teaches us as well that we don't have language for everything so we certainly don't have a package for everything too. And yoga taught me some incredible movements and breathing and concepts, but it's not one teacher gave me all of that. And not one substance will, not one person will. And the cautionary tale is that it is unfortunately in the hands of pharma now and I feel like eventually the plants the spirit of the plants themselves will win but we're going to go through ups and downs of that because if you've ever experienced

ayahuasca if you've ever experienced aboga psilocybin you get introduced to spirits that they're intangible but they're very palpable and the spirit of aboga is still waiting me even though I haven't done it in two years I haven't been physically sitting with it but every once in a while in dreams it whispers and says its name and sometimes in other psychedelic experiences it like shows up and like waves you know it's gone over there you know do you really need to be taking this right now because I don't know that you do it's a nice little reminder but um that I think they'll win but I think we've got a little funny place that we're going to traverse.

I mean, yoga became Lulu Lemon and things like that. Like, I'm a yogi because I wear yoga pants. I don't know what that's going to look like in psychedelic culture, but it will. Just will. And like, accept it as part of it and laugh at it as it should be laughed at. Yeah, totally. Totally.

It's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful pattern. And it's, I'm fascinated by our relationship with my monetizing things that are sacred. And there's so many warning signs, too, at least for me, like I see, you know, on some level, I see some of the certification as, like, into drawing Muhammad. Like, it's a bad idea. Like, you probably shouldn't do that.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, wait, have you thought about this yet? I don't know. There's like a lot of things that put it out. I get it. And I think that the nature is going to take the course it needs to take. And like you said, it's going to be ups and there's going to be downs and we're going to be shown things about how to be.

Maybe that's what's going on right now is we're really beginning to build a better relationship with an intelligence that is vastly more greater than than us. It's been here longer than us. And it's holding our hand and like, okay, here's what happens if you do this. Everybody watch. Here's what happens if you do this, everybody watch. And if you can pan back and see it from that angle of like, okay, it's showing us the way to build a relationship with it. And there's going to be bumps and bruises along the way. For me, like, when I can see it that way, it'll soften the blow.

me and take away some of the, some of the righteousness or the, the, the anger, wait a minute. You know, I find myself on that bridge quite a bit, but I got to pull myself back. But it's, um, it's such a fascinating time to get to be embraced by something sacred and see this sort of spirituality moving from the ground and embracing other people and helping people and showing us the way. I'm so, I'm so bullish on the future for, for psychedelics and the relationships and the communities that we can build about. Yeah.

I mean, there's good and bad and everything. Yeah. And like there's, I look at what, like, there was the Patrick and Michelle, one of their supports was, he had taken Ivoga with them. And the beautiful thing was that he was the, I think he was third generation heir to a boxing and packaging company. and like, you know, really super engaging work, I imagine, but, you know, his fortune came from that and his grandfather who created it. So, yeah. But he had one experience of a boga, and he guaranteed the entire company would be recyclable within two years and then within five who posted. That is a multi-generation, also multi-international

evalomerate that changed because of the influence of one of these and I think there's something to be said about like the power that it has because and like brought up Michael Paul in the botany of desire was one of his books. You know like it's like luring us in with its beauty and it's like magic. and and it's because it's like it doesn't want to it doesn't want to hit you over the head but sometimes it might might be helpful and um or you know there was there was a there was one of the experiences i had with a booga that um i just i i wanted to see my mother again i wanted to

spend time with her again i wanted to meet my ancestors but i just was tired my i was physically tired i was like emotionally tired already had one flood dose and this was my second flood dose of that experience and um I just I hid in the bathroom the second dose I just said no I can't take anymore it already had some I had vomited it all up and I was just like I don't have it right now to give and the medicine heard it and said okay and just gave me this very sweet cream and said okay that's all you don't need you don't need really big and I think um I think there's there's something to be said about softness and gentleness. And that we don't, we don't need huge wallups.

And I mean, if you really think that you need one, you'll get one. Life will deliver it. And in various ways. You know, I was really, really blessed by the source of the PTSD that I experienced. because it opened up my world completely. That's what eventually got me traveling and eventually made me go, I'm going to talk to these people because I feel completely lost by this experience. And it was this deep grief of loss that felt intangible that I was seeking to get an answer to

because I thought for this instance, it was a loss of a sense. sense of self and I needed to move through different iterations of myself to be able to figure out what that really meant to me. And that came through some psychedelic experience. It also came through the incessant insomnia that comes with PTSD. You don't get to process anything because you're not sleeping. And that gives you an altered state. You know, little kids spin around in a circle to get an altered state because like it's different. We don't need to have really huge difficult experiences to change. But sometimes if life necessitates it, it might give it to you.

But I don't know. Anyway, I'm going on a tangent and I want to make sure that you get all your questions answered. If there's any more that are hanging in the way, especially that it might want to get on with her. Let me see. We got, this one comes to us from Neil. He says, in your experience, what initiatory wisdom does grief reveal that joy never could? I think it gives you the absence. It gives you that absence of joy.

And there's almost like, if you've ever fasted and like, I remember fasting at one, point and having the first like sip of tea where there was something other than water that I was consuming and it just had the hint of green tea it gives you this incredible ability to be sensitive again to something that you may have just taken for granted and that loss makes you so sensitive to the inkling of joy when it comes back. And it's not that we're just seeking joy. We're seeking a whole myriad of experience in this life. But if you have a palpable loss and you just can't access it. And there's so many people that I'm very blessed that I don't know what clinical depression feels like. I've heard people describe it that it's like a physical

experience. I do have chronic pain, so I kind of understand what like a physical experience is like, but I feel like to have something distanced from you gives you such a rich appreciation when you get just a taste of it again. And you, when someone passes and you were saying, you know, that physical sensation that we lost in COVID of like actually being in front of each other and feeling a person's physical presence. That's actually what we're missing because we still have the memories. We may still have the clothing or pictures or whatever videos of that person, but it's that presence that we're missing.

And sometimes we're given dreams, just like in nighttime dreams, that you just that you just just get to be with that person again. And that's so rich. And I think if we could bring that awareness that what that loss teaches to our current relationships, we would have such a rich life. But I think we, I mean, I can say as a native Los Angeles person, When I left Los Angeles, when I left California entirely, and I was in the south in Tennessee, in Florida, Alabama, people were so much more warm than I was used to because I thought,

well, Californians are the best. They're so nice, but they're actually not always. But I recognize that I was brought up in a way that people are instruments for getting like getting something and I had just taken that for a matter of fact I grew up 20 minutes out Hollywood people used other people as a method to get their work achieved their whatever their status increased and when I got away from that and like I saw that people are just genuine kind creatures and they have no celebrity no status no very little money in certain cases like Like I come from a place of privilege.

I recognize that. And I saw that I was extraordinarily privileged. And I needed to be cut down a little bit. And like the world delivered that to me. And the flavor of just like sunshine and just like my favorite pair of jeans feels incredible compared to what I used to think I needed. and when you have loss, whatever it might be, you, like, you get, again, our theme is remembering, you get a remembering of what's really important. That's joy is so sweet.

It's wonderful. But you can also, like, get lost in it, I think. Yeah. You know? I love that. It's such a beautiful answer. It makes me thinkless. It is.

I'm at a loss for words for a minute. Like, it's so beautiful to think about the flavor of sunshine and a favorite pair of jeans. Like, what else do you need? You know, like that's so beautiful. This one comes to us from Betsy. Betsy, what's up? Thanks for being over here. She says, what have you, what, this kind of bleeds into the other question a little bit,

but she says, what have the dead taught you that the living never could? So, we're going in the woo. Blue territory. Yeah, let's go. So my mother, when she was in the hospital, I knew that she had been hospitalized and I was packing my bags. And it was a Thursday. I went to sleep and I knew I was going to fly out the next day.

And to go back to Southern California, I was driving. I don't remember now. But she came to me in her dream and that was when she passed. Her spirit had left, but her body was kept alive because she was in a coma. But her spirit, I believe, passed that Thursday, which was March 13th. She technically, I think, was declared dead on March 7th. No, 15th, I believe. But it was the night of the 13th that she came to me in a dream.

She was like, I'm free. There's no money here. There's my mother and father had a very difficult relationship. She's your father's not here. I am free. And she did this. beautiful dance move, which is called a barrel turn. And she never danced. She danced before I was born, and I didn't know of it about it until after I graduated from college with a degree in dance and

psychology. She's like, oh yeah, I used to like dance. I was like, how is this just coming up? Your daughter's been in school for this. She used to do ballroom dancing. And she's a beautiful woman. And she had, her brother told me, she said, your mother's dance card was always full. Because Everybody want to dance with your mother. And she had this, just, it was her spirit that came to me and said, don't worry. Don't worry. None of it is worth it. The worry is not worth it.

And I'm free now. She let me know that. And I, years later, I'm trying to still process the loss of her. I had the opportunity to experience peyote. And I was really pushing it off, which for people who've experienced these medicines, it's easy to push some of these things off because you're like, no, I will not feel. Really?

So it was easy for me. And the woman who was my sitter, she was like, okay, I'm just going to leave you alone with a stack of paper and a pen. And you're going to just sit there alone for a while because we had already, peyote is a stimulant. And so that's a woman's a stimulant. And so I was wide awake, but I wasn't experiencing, like, I wasn't getting the visions. And I was like, I'm being jet by this medicine.

It's just like, sit down with a pad of paper. Just, I'm leaving you alone for the evening because it was like 10 o'clock at night or something. But I'm still wired. And so I start writing. And it is not my words, my grandfather. And he's like, I have been waiting to speak. And I am just taking from pages and pages and pages. pages and pages and he wouldn't let me sleep he was like you have no idea how amazing life is

I'm going to tell you everything and then at one point he said this is so fun playing your grandfather and I was like sorry what I realized who am I talking to then and and it was in my back my grandfather had died when I was nine or ten so at that time I was in my my mid 30s and and I was like who Who is this? Who's controlling the dead? And the dead will speak to us in so many ways. And what they will tell you is how incredible life is. Because they've already been through it.

And they know, I mean, they, in my opinion, only my opinion, but, but my experience of whatever this life has been and contacting people and having this experience of both living people and dead people, it's beautiful. Trust me, it is beautiful. It is beautiful to have the physical body. It really is. You get to taste things.

You get to have sex. You get to hug people. You get to experience swimming in the ocean. You get this physicality. And that that's something they don't have. Now, they can go everywhere and be everywhere and apparently be my grandfather and somebody else at the same time. But they don't have a physicality anymore, at least at that time.

And so what they've shown me is how beautiful life is and how simple our day-to-day existence can really, like the simple things can be so beautiful. And I feel really grateful that I've gotten a chance. I'm a Scorpio, so I feel like it's just part of like there's life and death cycles constantly. That's just part of like what I've been used to. but I feel really blessed that I have this life, that I get to hang out in the depths and the dark places with people, both clients and frankly, even my marketing clients,

most of them are there for therapy. I'm not joking like, especially if they're like small entrepreneurs and they're like just trying to figure out their messaging and they're trying, what am I supposed to do here? It's because they're in this space of darkness and you just need light. The dead have so much light.

They really, really do, because that's kind of all they are. And we think of death as this like skeleton or, you know, like the absence of life. They just have nothing blocking it anymore. And I mean, I don't, I don't know how to tell people how to experience their passed away loved ones. That's not something I, like, have ever figured out how to do.

It just is. for me like my father came to me right as he was passing on to and he just said can i go now i'm saying yes he did he did say i tried really hard and i was like i know you did he's like okay i'm out but like i don't know how to tell people how to experience it but but i can say um if you listen you can i think i do i think it's just remembering how to do it's beautiful. The whole conversation has just moved from like the depths of despair into the wonderful, beautiful idea that if you have your freedom and your health, you have everything and how much you can't experience. I think this is a testament to how beautiful Kimberly Adams is.

And if anybody is in listening, all the people listening to this right now. And if you're listening to this into the future, like, I want to make sure that everybody is able to go down and check out your links and stuff like that. And let me just throw it back to you. we're landing the plane a little bit. Like where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Thank you.

Thank you so much, truly. It's, I just, I do very much believe in synchronicities and, you know, and it's just so funny that we reconnected in the movie we did. I'm working still in my substack. I'm still learning how to use substack. I had written about 60 pages of a book

and then my father died, about brief, and then my father died. I was like, ha ha ha, very funny. And so I scrapped the whole book and I discovered substack. And so it's kind of the way for me to express the things as I learn them and get feedback. Because it's not a linear book that I feel like I put together right now. And it also feels like I have too many like videos and audio recordings of people that have shared things that I want to share with other people that like it just seems like a good spot.

So I think it's key. Katie Adams. Dot substack, I think I'll share that that. Katie Adams, Kimberly Dawn Adams.com is my website, just for my personal speaking and my brief work. I'm a marketing strategist, so I work primarily with psychedelic clients, but I also work with kind of emerging markets, and you can find me at L-Y-Tmarketing.com. Hello at Katie Adams.com.

You can just email me and say howdy. And I'm always interested in hearing people's stories as they've navigated their own worlds of greed and death. And I've got, I've had some wonderful cultural representations of different places. But I've also had really beautiful conversations of people, just lost children who, you know, it's not, that's not how things are supposed to go. They're supposed to go the opposite way.

So it's an unusual experience. But also just people who face death themselves, near-death experiences, the woman who I sat with with them, ayahuasca and peyote and mushrooms, she drowned when she was 10. And her father passed, but she was revived and she had a near-depth experience. she has a multiplicity of awareness because of that. And so, you know, hearing from people who've been touched by death, we've all been touched by death in some form. But I think it, we're better for it.

So you can also find me on Instagram, but I'm not. I use it just for bunnies. I like taking pictures of beautiful street art, which is plant thought consort. on Instagram. But yeah, I'll send you all this stuff. You can put it in the phone notes and stuff. But also I want to share,

I'll share links to some of the folks that I mentioned because they're all incredible people, both the Oboga, folks, death dula, to the former doctor. All of these people have these incredible stories and gifts and movements that they're a part of as well. And I think the more we connect to one another, better off we are.

Yeah, mycelium is moving. So thank you to everybody that came on and got to be a part of this. I'm so grateful for the conversation. Robert says, amen to that. So thankful, Click Hiles says, great conversation. Thank you both. And Kimberly, hang on briefly afterwards, but to everybody else within the sound of our voice,

I hope you have a beautiful day. I hope you know that this tragedy in your life might be the best teacher, and it's looking to help you move through life in ways you can't imagine. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you.