TrueLife - Kyle Buller - Take a DEEP breath…it’s VITAL

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/“What the hell am I doing here?” An Initiation. A profound psychedelic trip, in the form of a near death experience, that gives way to the five year meditation of “What the hell am I doing here?” This is a discussion that you won’t want to miss….Kyle subsequently earned his B.A. in Transpersonal Psychology from Burlington College, where he focused on studying the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, Reiki, local medicinal plants and plant medicine, Holotropic Breathwork. Kyle has beenstudying breathwork since October 2010 with Lenny and Elizabeth Gibson of Dreamshadow Transpersonal Breathwork.Kyle earned his M.S. in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology.Kyle'sclinical background in mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis and with individuals experiencing an early-episode of psychosis and providing counseling to undergraduate/graduate students in a university setting.http://linkedin.com/in/kyle-buller-8a2a7262www.psychedelicstoday.comhttps://www.vitalpsychedelictraining.com/fshttps://www.vitalpsychedelictraining.com/fs One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Helping other people, I think it's beautiful

I appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day I hope that the sun is shining, the birds are singing, and the wind is at your back. I got an incredible show for you today that is bordering on the cusp of change. For those of my listeners that are real aware of different states of consciousness and higher states of consciousness. And I have with me the co-founder of psychedelics today, breathwork facilitator and therapist Kyle Buller.

Kyle subsequently earned his BA in Transpersonal Psychology from Burlington College, where he focused on studying the healing potential of non-ordinary states of consciousness by exploring shamanism, Riki, local medicine, medicinal plants, and plant medicine, holotropic breathwork. He's been studying breathwork since October 2010 with Lenny and Elizabeth Gibson of Dream Shadow Transpersonal Breathwork. He earned his MS in clinical mental health counseling with an emphasis in somatic psychology. His clinical background and mental health consists of working with at-risk teenagers in crisis

and with individuals experiencing an early episode of psychosis and providing counseling to undergraduate graduate students interview university center. We're talking about the vital project, but before we get into all of that, let me just dish it off to you, Kyle. Thanks for being here today, my friend. How are you?

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm wonderful. It's sunny and beautiful here where I'm at in Colorado. So birds are chirping, sunshin, sunshine is beaming down, and, yeah, it's a beautiful day. Yeah, it is. It's a beautiful day. It's a beautiful time of year.

and it's also a very intriguing time for psychedelic therapy and plant medicine. Maybe you could talk a little bit about your pathway to get here. Co-founder of psychedelics today, you've been doing breathwork for over a decade. Like you've been understanding these different states of conscience. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how you got there. Yeah, you want the short or long version. I want the long version, man. Give me the detailed version.

Cool, cool. So I've always, I guess, really been interested in consciousness. even as a young kid, like I always was a vivid dreamer, had lucid dreams. I would go into these dream states where, like, I would remember where I was, and I would always want to go back there. And yeah, so just really just interested in consciousness in a sense. And, you know, as a kid does, you know, you spin around. You like to watch the world kind of move.

And I remember that always, like really captivating me. You're like, this is interesting. And also having, like, really weird outer body experiences as a kid. kid. And then as you get older, and I think your ego starts to become more structured and form, you start to close off to that world. And that started happening as I started getting older and life starts to, you know, happen to you a bit. And then it came across this interesting book when I was a freshman in high school. It was called Snowboarding to Nirvana. And it was about a guy that went over to Nepal. He happened to run into, I think, a Buddhist monk. And then

The monk was teaching him meditation. And then, you know, there was like some really cool stuff about like teleportation and, you know, kind of all that mystical stories. And that I was like, oh, this is fascinating. Like, can people actually like reach those states through meditation and these different techniques? And they had some practices in the book and I would practice meditation. And I'm a snowboarder myself. And I was thinking like, oh, maybe this could like, you know, help me.

And I remember. And I was also a swimmer growing up. I swam you around. And I would use kind of mindfulness as I would compete too. Like I would try to drop out of my mind and just be in my body. So it was really interesting. And then when I was a sophomore, we had to, well, no, yeah, so freshman, we had to do that book report. I picked that book.

And then when I was a sophomore in high school, it was New Year's Eve. And I didn't want to go out partying and doing all that stuff. So me and my brother and one of his friends, we went out snowboarding. I grew up in New Jersey. And we do night skiing over here. and I went over to Pennsylvania out into the Poconos. And it was really warm during the day. So a lot of the snow got kicked up, you know, soft snow,

and then it started freezing during the night. So it's like icy. If anybody is a snowboarder, you know the East Coast or skier. It's called the Ice Coast because it's just, you know, it's constantly icy. And there's just this mound of snow. So it was flying down this hill. And these hills are small So my typical kind of thing

Was just point the snowboard and go as fast as possible down down these hills But the the trail I was on was kind of like a snake It kind of did this like this kind of switchback and there's like three of them and it was called the Nile mile mile And I'm glad that it rhymes with my name So I was going around a turn on my toe edge really fast and the way that the light was hitting and I came out and there was this mound of snow and it was in the blind spot the way the light was, you know, casting. And I remember time started to slow down and I just said, oh shit, if I hit this, I'm going to die. And so I tried stopping,

I tried turning. I tried doing everything. And it was like everything was just going so slow and a million thoughts just started racing through my head and going, I need to get out of this. If I hit this, you know, this is going to be really, my life's going to be over. So it was like this thing sucked me in. And I just got sucked into this mound and I flew through the air about like 30 feet, not high. It was like, you know, kind of low on the ground, but just very far. It was my snowboard hit, my shoulder hit, and I heard a loud pop. And I was gasping for air and I probably slid down the mountain. I don't know, another like 20 so feet. And I was gasping for air. And since I heard the pop and I had immediate pain in my chest, I thought I broke a rib. And I remember just laying face down

in the snow, just grunting, like, can't breathe. And luckily, my brother and his friends stopped by. They were right behind me. And they went down to go get help. And then I'm watching, so I'm there kind of alone on the mountain. They went down and go get ski patrol. And I'm just watching all these people whizz by me, all these parents or kids. And I'm sitting there like death grunting, kind of like the noise I was just making. And there are these two snowboarders that stopped. They said, hey, man, you are right? I'm like, uh, not not really. And like, do you have a light? I guess I wanted to smoke some cigarettes. But they, they were like, okay, you're obviously, like, really hurt. We need to put some snowboards in front of you because people are going to come

whipping around this turn and not see you and they're going to crash into you so thankfully they put the snowboards in front of me they hung out with me and these are the type of kids um you know they're throwing snowballs at you and the park calling you all sorts of foul names um you know that's the stereotype and these are the only kids that stopped you're watching parents whizz by me not stopping not asking if i'm okay and again like i'm making sounds that that don't sound good you know and i understand like you know there there are people that just hang out on the ground on the trail and I don't always stop. But if somebody is like, you know, vocalizing, I would stop and say, you know, something's not right. And so my brother came back maybe like a half an hour later.

And he said, nobody's coming for you. I said, what do you mean? Nobody's coming for me. He's like, I don't know. We told the Lifty and the Lifty just didn't really seem to care or say anything. So these kids got up and they said, we're going to, we're going to go down there and make sure these guys like get their asses up here. Thankfully it's a small mountain and about like I think five or 10 minutes after they left a first responder came by and they checked in with me and they're trying to take all my vitals. I'm helping them out too. And they said, okay, we need to get you a toboggan. In the meantime, I hear that my dad was in the bar just hanging out eating dinner and some kid comes in and says, I guess they went to their parents said, oh, man, there's this, there's this guy that's

dying on the Nile Mile. And it looks really hurt. And my, supposedly my dad said, oh, he was saying, you know, that really sucks for that guy. And then, like, a couple minutes later, my brother comes in and said, you know, Kyle's really hurt on the Nile Mile. He's not doing well. And so I think that, yeah, it's like, oh, God, what's happening? So thankfully, they got the toboggan. They brought me down to first aid. And by the time I got there, I was like, yeah, I was just not feeling great. I had all this pain in my chest and my abdomen. And they were looking at me and said, you know, are you usually this pale?

I don't know. I don't typically look at my complexion, you know. And I can't really see myself. And then they said, you know, do you really, do you have normally a low pulse? Again, something I'm not really thinking about it when I'm 16. And I said, I don't know. And they're like, well, your ribs are fine. There's no bruising.

It doesn't seem like anything's broken. But your vitals are really low. And we think you have internal injuries. And at that moment, you know, I didn't really grow up religious. I think I stopped going to church when I was like five or four or something like that. But I started praying to God. And I remember the first thought that popped through my head was, oh, shit, I'm going to die tonight. And I don't want to die.

I'm way too young. And I said, God, if you're out there, please, please, please, save me. thankfully they got a medevac and they didn't just get me an ambulance otherwise i would not be here today um and so they metavacked me out and i guess once they um they got me over to the helicopter when i left they looked at my dad and said your son's in his golden hour and he may not make it so i think that freaked him out enough to you know rush to the hospital i think he said he was driving like 120 or something the highway trying to get there. So they medevac me out and, you know, it's New Year's Eve, my friends are calling me, my phone's blowing up and the first aid responders in the medevacs, like, whose phone is this, you know? And all my friends are calling me to probably see where I'm at,

or you come in to so-and-so's house. My uncle was also a first responder for that township in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. And so he actually greeted me there in the ER, which was nice. It provided, I think a sense of comfort knowing that you know here's somebody that I know that's by me and is you know keeping me safe but it was also interesting by the time I got there I started thinking about death in a different way when I was in the first aid station I was terrified by the time I got there and saw my uncle and they're taking off my clothes or jabbing with needles I just started to kind of expand outside my body a little bit and I remember thinking you know this is somebody that I consider family, right? Their blood. But where I'm about to go, I can't take anybody with me.

This is my own journey. And there's this kind of like feeling of acceptance of something is going to happen and this is my own journey. And there's nobody else I can take with me. And at that time, the nurses are jabbing me with needles trying to get into my veins to tap me with IVs. I remember hearing the one nurse say, like, yeah, I guess trigger warning. It might get a little bit triggering for some folks. But yeah, they were just kind of tapping me and saying, you know, I can't get, I can't get an IV in his veins. His veins and his upper body are collapsing. And then I could hear another nurse say, like, I can't get a pulse on him.

You know, his pulse is really low. And I remember they took out this huge needle and jabbed it in my femoral artery. I think that was the only vein that they could tap into. So then they got me to a sonogram and they said, you know, we need to figure out what's going on. You obviously, like, aren't doing well. We think you have, like, internal bleeding. And so they did a sonogram on me. And they said, you know, this is the reason why you feel so sick.

You have massive internal bleeding in your abdomen. You have blood filling your entire abdomen. We need to figure out where this is coming from and we need to do emergency ASAP. By that point, I wasn't afraid. I'm hearing all this and I'm hearing that I'm dying. And I'm just kind of sitting there going. like, huh, this is interesting. You know, it was like I was kind of out of my body and I was tapping into all the, I was more

concerned around the nurses and the doctors. I could feel all the anxiety that they were feeling, needing to keep this like young, young kid alive. So they got me to the cat scan machine and to try to figure out where the bleeding was coming from. And I'm in this, you know, the cat scan machine and they're giving me all this instruction. Kyle, breathe in. And I'm just, I'm freezing.

I have no blood circulating through me. It feels like I'm submerged in the tub of ice water. And I'm falling asleep. I'm so cold and I just want to go to sleep. And so I'm drifting away, closing my eyes, shivering. And they're telling me, they're like, inhale, exhale. They're trying to coach me through all this stuff. And then the doctors over the intercom are just like, Kyle, don't fall asleep.

Don't fall asleep. Stay with us. Stay with us, Kyle. And all I'm thinking about going to sleep is like the most, beautiful thing I think about right now. And I felt like I was on the other side of the room with them, but it was also in my body. And as they were telling me not to fall asleep, and I am kind of drifting off, all of a sudden, the way I described it is like there's this like orb of light or this light that came up somewhere and a voice. And it wasn't an external voice. It felt more of like

an internal voice. But this voice said, you know, you're going home. You're going back to the stars where we all come from and this physical life's going to cease to exist. You'll continue onward and that this is just a transition. And the more that you struggle with the transition, the harder it's going to be. So the more that you can relax into this experience, the easier this transition is going to be for you. But you're going home. And I remember thinking, feeling all this ecstasy and this bliss going, we're going home.

This is what we all wait for. And I remember just being like so blissed out and internally and also freezing in so much pain. But it was interesting because it was like, the more I started going inward, the more outward I was going. So it wasn't like just this total outer body experience. It was like the deeper I was going inside, it was like it was kind of helping me to propel outward a bit more. They got me out of the CAT scan and said, you rupture your spleen, you have massive internal bleeding. We need to do surgery ASAP.

They rushed me to the OR and they were telling me they were going to give me anesthesia. They're going to start counting backwards. words, the last words I remember hearing before I completely blacked out was, I think they were talking about shaving my chest so they could cut me open. And so the last things I heard before it all went black was, should we use an electric razor or a straight razor? That was the last thing I heard. And then, yeah, so they did some, they did surgery on me as they were wheeling me back to the ICU afterwards. I remember they were just, they were reeling through the hallway and I took this huge breath and I shot up off. It was like my soul entered

back into my body. And it was just for a split second. I like shot up. I started shaking, convulsing. And that split second I heard he's awake and he's cold. And then I passed out and I woke up in the ICU with my family around me. And so that was really kind of the start of this journey. That really changed my life in a lot of different ways. And one thing that I say, it's like, you know, it was like, I woke up with this map on my chest. And it was like a map of like maybe how the world worked. And I have no idea where that came from. And it was like my, my thinking started just changing in a really kind of profound way. And I said, where did all this information come from? So it just got me more curious. And, you know, it just left me on like, where the hell did I go?

because I didn't have this traditional near-death experience where you know you're going down a tunnel of light maybe you're meeting ancestors and then you feel like I'm making a decision to come back it was like all I know it felt like I was going home I was kind of accepting of things and then all of a sudden I wake up and like I see you and I'm like what just happened like where did I go and I was really like so like cognizant of time like I remember waking up and going what time is it and they're like oh it's 930 and I was like all this stuff happened at like 630 and I think like surgery happened around this time. And I was like, well, I think there was a couple other things. I said, is it still New Year's Eve? And they said, yes. I was like, did the ball drop? He said no. And then I was like, well, what time is it then?

Because I thought it was like, you know, maybe the next day or something like that. Yeah. So yeah, that was like really the start. I'll stop there, see if you have any questions before I continue onward. Yeah. Well, first off, it's a fascinating story. I'm sorry to hear about the traumatic part of it, but in some ways, I'm excited for you to,

at such an early age, to break the conditioning of what everybody is given in some life. And it seems to me it's traumatic experiences in life that shape us. And it's interesting, it's such a young age that you were able to take that experience and find a different direction. You know, it's a pretty young man.

You're a young man at that age. Like you don't have a, a whole lot of life or lived experience, right? Still trying to figure out who you are, right? Like, at that age, a sophomore in high school, like, all my peers are worried about, like, maybe partying, relationships, like, you know, all those things that teenagers do. And I'm sitting there going, what the hell just happened? What are we all doing here?

And then I came back, like, having a pretty heavy existential crisis. So it was like, I rode this high for a few months, but then it got really dark. And I hung out in the valleys. and going like, you know, this is, I, and having no mentors. And it was kind of interesting because I think it was in junior year of high school. We read a lot of existential writings. And I gravitated towards that. And I came across a paper that I wrote, I don't know, a number of years ago.

And it was dark. It actually like, I was like, damn, I was depressed back then. I was like really depressed. Just talking about how meaningless everything was and no purpose. It's like, geez. but that's what I was feeling back then. It seems like a write of passage to me in some ways. You know, when you read about different mythologies or, you know,

people can read the Bible in this sort of way or any sort of texts, you know, even Star Wars, the hero's journey, whatever you want to use. But like, it seems to me when you come close to the face of death, be it in your own life or someone you really care about or a caretaker, when you get close to that fire, you get burned by those embers. and that changes you forever. In fact, it fundamentally changes the way you model reality. Does that sound accurate?

Totally, totally. Yeah, my reality was completely shattered and restructured. There's a term that my other co-founder, Joe Moore, used in a podcast a while ago, this ontological shock. And it was. It was like this, just shock to my worldview, my belief system, and not having any idea how to pick those pieces back up. And how do I, like, you know, figure this out and not having mentors.

which is really, really challenging. Yeah, it's, I'm not even sure anybody, you know, when you didn't have any mentors. I mean, how would your family even know how to react to that? I don't think most of them did, right? Like, because I mean, obviously the first line is physical safety. You're alive. Most other people aren't thinking about the psychospiritual aspect.

And you can't blame anybody for that, right? Because, like, we don't live in our life. a culture where we value that. We talk about it much. I remember I got in trouble. So I hated school when I went back. I just pretty much was like, this is all like your factory producing kids. All this stuff. This is like a bunch of bullshit. And I just completely stopped doing all my work. And somehow I aced everything. And I found a letter from a teacher. She emailed my mom and said, I don't know if you know much about like what Kyle's thinking, but he's had this. near-death experience that like really radically shifted his life. And I think you need to give him

another near-death experience because he's not doing like, you know, any of his work and, you know, this and that. And he has all this potential and he's just not applying himself, but also not hearing like my side of things of like, this is all, you know, like, and to some degree, right, it's like the way the school system was kind of created. It was, you know, there was some kind of truth there. But I remember one time, so I really hated school back then. And I just felt like there was just much more life at that point. And why am I wasting it just like doing all this like bullshit that I'm never probably going to like, you know, use instead of like giving people real world experiences and other

ways of like learning that are more practical? And I got detention one time because I forget what happened. I was probably just goofing around. And the principal said, you know, so you had this experience. You should just be thankful you're alive. And I said, I am. I am thankful that I'm alive. But I'm like, I don't think you understand this, like the spiritual, like, crisis that

I'm going through right now of what I went through. And it was like she couldn't hear that. And again, and everybody's like, you know, thankful you're alive. But, you know, there's also what does that, how does that change somebody's personality and way of thinking? And again, you know, we're not a culture that's oriented towards death, thinking about it. And we're not a culture that like really explores these kind of, well, what I would call

like a transpersonal crisis or spiritual emergence, right? Like this is like foreign language for most of us. And so we don't even think about how that's impacting somebody. Yeah. You know, you rubbed up against this taboo called death at an early age. And in our, in the Western culture, you just think of the word pallet of care. Like the etymology of paw means to cover something up. Like we are covering, we'll put that in the shadows, old people get over there.

We don't want to look at you guys. You guys might die pretty soon. We can't have that on our brains. Like, you know, like we, we, in the Western culture, it seems to me with my experience that death is something that we don't want to even consider. So to be at a young age, you know, I could imagine adults would be like, listen, man, you're not going to be alive. Now let's stop your complaining and get back to doing this thing that matters.

You're like, I was going home, man. You guys have any idea. I was about to go home to the stars. and who did you, like, without some sort of spiritual framework, man, you lost, man. I get it. Yeah, and then, you know, there's another part that I just hit like a number of years ago in an ayahuasca session of like being terrified that I was never going to see my friends and family ever again.

That was it. I was going to fall asleep and that was going to be completely it. Never to say goodbye, never anything like that. So, you know, that's like another layer of it. And it wasn't until I ended up going to college. I found this interesting program that you mentioned in the intro, Burlington College, and I was taking an eco-psychology class. And I had a teacher named Michael Watson there.

And he also does some shamanic healing and stuff like that. And during the eco-psychology class, he said something, and I was like, I got to share my story with this guy. And so after class, I said, hey, can I share my story with you? And so I shared my near-death experience and then some of these really profound psychedelic experiences that I had. that ultimately got me to Burlington College. And he just looked at me and he said, you know, if you lived in a traditional culture,

the elders would have stepped in and taught you this new way of being and seeing in the world. Unfortunately, you don't live in that culture. You had to figure it out by yourself. And that was probably the first time I ever felt seen and heard by somebody. And I said, holy shit, somebody gets it. Somebody gets what it's like to go through something like that. And that there's cultures that could understand

that was part of their cosmology, that these experiences are really transformative. And as you mentioned, they're kind of like an initiatory crisis for a lot of folks. And what's the framework? How do people come back from that? How do people then reintegrate into society? And some of those cultures had that, right? And you had the elders that would step in and say, you went through this. Now here's how to work through that.

And that, you know, I just, yeah, I grew up in a place where maybe that wasn't accessible and didn't really know where to look. I was confused myself. I don't even know if I knew where to look at that time or what I hated, right? It's interesting. You know, you spoke a little bit about time when you awoke from this incredible situation that happened. And you were like, kind of like, I don't know what time is. Was I gone for a day?

Was I gone for a month? And we look at the cycles of psychedelics that have been in our country. But then we look back to indigenous cultures and we see the times in which they were used in ceremonies. And fast forward to, you know, 2023 on the cusp of 2024. And it's almost like you can see your shadow with what you're doing now with psychedelic today. In some level, you're probably seeing echoes of people having similar traumas. Well, it may not be someone, you know, going down the mile or whatever, you know, someone that may have been in Afghanistan and have their friends head exploded in front of them or someone coming out of a divorce, like tragedies. a big word that has a big umbrella that a lot of things are under.

So you mentioned a few psychedelic experience. Maybe we could touch on one of your first psychedelic experience before we start getting into psychedelics there. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, it's the continuation of the story. So, yeah, I think I was maybe 19, 20. A friend of mine had some mushrooms. And I think I only had one experience beforehand, which was a little bit of a lower dose.

definitely wouldn't have prepped me for this. I think I already had some experiences with cannabis at this point. But, you know, I was just still processing so much. Like I took it in a way that I wanted to escape everything because I was just like, what am I doing here? You know, because there's a part of me that it was actually really upset that the doctor saved me. There was this part that I was like, I was supposed to go. And then what am I doing here?

So I was left with this huge question. I'm like, what hell am I still doing here? And so, yeah, I wasn't in probably the greatest mindset. And, you know, we always talk about set and setting, you know, important things about psychedelics. And we ended up going into the woods. We went on a little hike. I think I ate around like two grams of Kvensis. And all of a sudden, the world just started to melt away.

I was looking at my body, turning into pixels. I watched my friend puke his up, and I'm thinking, this is it. We're dying, you know? And I was having a really hard time just holding on to reality. And I was walking down this path and I saw this rock and I pointed at that rock and said, I need to die there. And this feeling started to come in. This cold started to creep in.

And that cold reminds me of dying, obviously. And all of a sudden it felt like death was at the forefront. And I said, I know this feeling. This is death. And so all of a sudden, the world got really scary. I couldn't hold on to reality. The trees, all of nature started to have mouth and teeth. And it just ripped me apart.

And the more I tried to hold on to it, the more it got scary. And I remembered that thing when I was dying, said the more he struggled with this, the harder it's going to be. And so I completely let go and I let the world consume me. And I just ended up in this void of nothingness. I didn't know my name. I didn't know anything about myself. And I didn't know what year.

it was i didn't know what i did for a living um and it was terrifying it was absolutely terrifying to be in a state like that and i would say this was what we call bad trip right the world has teeth destroys you you enter into a void of nothingness and you don't know who you are and it really terrified me and then i ended up in this realm that felt like some sort of death bardo and i and i started to come in contact with some sort of entity or energy um and i started to kind of have some communication with it and said, I feel like I've been here before. And this voice just said thousands of times. And we said, okay, this is interesting. If I feel like I've been here before, this reminds me of dying. I've been here thousands of times. I must be in some sort of death

barto. And so I asked it that, you know. And it said, yeah, more or less so. I said, okay, if I've been here thousands of times, I'm in some sort of death barto, then this must be God or this must be the thing that gave me all this information. So I asked that that question. And then it just replied, more or less so. And so, you know, I'm battling up against trickster archetype. You know, it's just not giving me any sort of answer. But having that experience helped me to re-contextualize my near-death experience. It helped provide some sort of visual that allowed me to process my near-death experience in a

new light. And I remember coming back from that, and it was so healing. That whole trip then transformed into beauty and love, and it gave me purpose all of a sudden. And it helped me to, it helped provide answers that I was seeking for. I remember coming back from that scratching my head going, how could somebody ingest something that grows from the earth that could replicate death like that all over again? And if people could experience what it's like to die before dying,

what kind of therapeutic potential could this have? So that got me intellectually curious. I said, what's going on here? You know, is there any research in this stuff? So I started diving down a rabbit hole. Came across for Xrastman's book, DETA's spirit molecule. I didn't pick it up because it was related to psychedelics or anything like that. I don't even think I knew what DMT was at that time.

I picked it up because in the subtitle, it said something about research in non-ordinary states like near-death experiences. So that's what caught my attention. So then I started reading his book, and I think it was in his book. He said, sometimes when people are having near-death experiences and they're getting anesthesia right at that late stage, sometimes it suppresses the visual aspect of that experience. And I was thinking, I got anesthesia right when I was like really starting to take off. And maybe that's like what suppressed some of that, you know, that whole tunnel of light thing and this and that. These are just hypotheses, right?

But it got me curious. And then after reading his book, I'm reading about DMT. And I said, holy shit. Like my experience with psilocybin was on par with dying. And if psilocybin is kind of like an poorly active dose of DMT, what are these similarities here? This is fascinating. You know, like. So that just got.

got me more intellectually curious and I just started picking up all sorts of books I came across the work of Stan Groff after another really profound experience that left me rocked and kind of it was another initiatory process kind of left me in a trip for like three to four months and I had to like swim my way out of it and coming across Stan's work was pivotal but that that was the experience then got me really curious of like I need to study this stuff because I need to know what's going on. So I found this really unique program at Burlington College. It was a personal psychology program there. And so I started to, I enrolled. I felt like I found my life purpose. I came out here to Colorado when I was 21 thinking I was going to be a ski bump for the

rest of my life. I was like, I'm going to work on the mountains. I'm going to do all this stuff. But on the drive back, I had this voice that kind of came over and said, snowboarding's a hobby. It's something that you like to do. Don't make a career out of it. You know, there's something else that you have a lot more to contribute and think about these experiences that you've had. And so on the drive back, I think that's when I found out about Burlington College. And so I checked that out. I liked Burlington a lot better than Boulder, actually. So I made the decision to go there.

But it was such a unique program that I was able to research psychedelics, write papers about it. I was introduced to Lenny Elizabeth Gibson at Dream Shadow, who were students and colleagues of Stan Groff. They trained under them for whole terrific breathwork. they kind of took me under their wing. I've been studying with them for, yeah, well over a decade. And I was just so fortunate to find really great mentors all of a sudden. And like I said, my one teacher, Michael, it was like, that was the first time I felt heard and seen by somebody.

And so it was like I was in this community where I was able to explore my experience in an intellectual way, but also in an experiential way, because it was very experientially oriented, going down to do breath work, doing like, you know, getting trained in Reiki and like doing shamanic intensives, going, doing all this like Jungian dream analysis. I was really focused on a lot of inner work too. So it was like that was almost like my integration, was going to a program where they were able to hold all that and I was able to really then start to do my work.

And I was just so fortunate that I was able to just find a place like that to do some processing and so letting Elizabeth kept asking me if I ever met Joe Moore. I was like no and they said yeah I should really connect you guys are both into psychedelics breath work and you know snow sports like I think he snowboards like you guys should just connect and they said okay so we called him I we had a call together and we kicked it yeah we just kind of really kicked it off and that was really then the birth of psychedelics today this was in two thousand I think we originally connected in fall 2015 and then we started the project in the spring of 2016.

So I was already done with school. I just started grad school. I was working in a mental health field a bit. And when we connected, we just had this idea of wanting to create an archive from some of Lenny and Elizabeth's like talks and kind of talk about their work. The work is staying groff, breath work,

the importance of that work in the psychedelic world. And it just started off as a little passion project. We just wanted to chat about transpersonal psychology, breathwork, and psychedelics. And yeah, it's been a journey. But it's interesting, yeah, just a series of events that kind of got me here. And I never thought I would be doing this, you know. I also trained as a therapist and I've put my practice on pause and I'm not practicing

right now because, yeah, kind of psychedelics today has taken over, which has been fun and exciting. It is. I'm going to go back for just a moment. you know, thinking about what the hell am I doing here? Like holding that thought and investigating it for five years, do you think that that may be a big part of the reason why that two grams hit you like 10 grams? You know what I mean?

Like holding on to that idea, investigating that thought and just sitting with it, man, that seems like the hammer of intention just wailing away at the neuroplasticity of your brain. Like, I'm going to make a new path right here as soon as I get it. the catalyst, you know, just hammering away. What the hell am I doing? What the hell am I doing? You start asking that question enough. You start coming up with some real interesting answers because you can superficially answer

that question. Like, well, I'm here to have a kid. I'm here to work. That goes out the window after six months a year. You know, you start thinking about those things. I think that that kind of intention, that kind of serious thought on one question, meditating like that, that's what opens the doors to auditory illusions. It's like, whoa. okay, here's the answer. Here's the answer. No, this is the answer, but what do you think about holding on to something like that, whether it's through meditation or whether it's through trauma?

Holding onto a question and asking that and seeking an answer, what do you think that relationship is to a catalyst to psychedelic? Well, I mean, that's a really interesting thing. I really haven't thought about that. But, you know, when I do share that, I do say, I think I was very primed. I was processing a lot. And we always come back to this notion that comes from Stan Groff,

is that, you know, psychedelics are these non-specific amplifiers of mental or psychic processes. And so if I'm already processing all this stuff and then I take this substance that then is amplifying it to this point that it just like throws you into the water, yeah, that makes so much sense, right? Like this is something I've been thinking about daily. What's my purpose here? What am I doing here? And again, I think you're pointing to more of a philosophical.

What are we doing here on this floating rock? How did life get here? How do we create the systems that we create? And to some degree, the systems that we've created have also boxed us in and have kept us to suffer. And if we can think about things a little bit differently, could we be viewing life in a totally different way? But the Cartesian waters that we swim in and all the other waters that we swim in, we don't know that we're swimming in it. Right. And so a lot of people have a hard time even thinking outside of that.

Yeah. And it's again, it's like that little cartoon. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but two goldfish looking at each other. One's saying, how's the water? In other words, saying, what's water? We don't know that we're in these systems and how much they can actually then create suffering.

And so I was dealing with that at a very young age of like seeing something outside and thinking I was going crazy. I'm like, how do people not see this stuff? I'm not special, you know? like I just, I think have just been able to step outside of it for a second. But that drove me insane. Like I felt like I was crazy. I felt like I was so alienated from everybody else.

I felt like I couldn't live a normal life because I was just like, where did this information come from? Why am I thinking like this? Why am I thinking so abstractly all of a sudden? And that was really challenging. So yeah, I think since I was meditating on this stuff for a while, that got amplified. to a degree where it just threw me in to the deep end that much quicker. Yeah.

It's, you know, it blows my mind and you can see on some level how people get lost or they can't find their wig back. Because once you see something, you can't unsee it. It's like those, remember those pictures like,

oh, like the little, like if you squint your eyes and the 3D thing pops out of you. Yeah, yeah, I love those. Or, yeah, me too. Or like there's a picture of like an old woman

and a young woman, depending on how you see it. Like, but once you see one, you can see them both, like, oh my God, there's two there. But one person is like, it's only this. And a lot of people, for whatever reason, have this binary look at life.

But once you taking a peek over that other side a little bit, you can't unsee that. And that can be a big problem. That can be distressed. That could be the root of PTSD. That could be divorce. That could be suicide. That could be a lot of things right there.

But it sounds like, you know, your relationship with seeing the unseen and making friends with, You're making friends with the monster, if that makes sense. It's like, that's a big part of it, right? It's a really great analogy because when I talk about, like, challenging psychedelic experiences, I talk about it as going down a hallway, and there's so many doors that you can open, and most of the time, maybe you get rainbows and bunny rabbits and, you know, all the great things.

But one time you're going to open up a door with a monster, and you can't put that monster back in. It's free to room the hallway. And so what do you do? Do you make friends with it, or do you constantly try to push it back in? And I get it, you know, as an age, like I get narrow-minded. And I think that just happens as you age and life starts to happen to you again. And so, but I think that's why we need to also engage in whatever practice it is to help us get outside of it. Because life is really good at putting you back in the box, right?

It's like I could have all these really interesting insights and think about, oh, like all the ethereal stuff of what the world is. And then you look and you go, shit, I got to pay my student loan bills or I got to do this. or X, Y, and Z happen. It's like, okay, no, now I got to get back in the box, right? Yeah. That's a good one too. It's slippery. Like you can grab it for a minute, but then it slips out of your hands and you're back in life.

And that's what it's for. I think it's, you know, another metaphor that I like to use is every now and then you can go to the mountaintop and look where you were, look where you're going and look where you're at. But eventually you've got to come back down the mountain and start doing the work, right? And that means slipping back into this reality. You're slipping back into who you are into this time. That can be hard too. I mean, psychedelics can be used as an escape, right? A lot of people use them.

Let me just get out of here. Instead of using it as a way in which to see the world in a different perspective, hey, let me just escape from here. Like, if we look at Huxley, you know, you can have brave new world and have Soma where it's a disassociative or you can have the island where you're sitting in a church with your mentor and looking, hey, what does this thing do? Yeah. No, and I was definitely there in my younger years, just using it as an escape.

And it wasn't until I started doing breath work that I realized I was escaping and I wasn't actually processing all that trauma. And I needed to like actually come back to my body and process it in a totally different way. But yeah, I mean, it's easy to get caught up with like all the visions and the beauty and and the love. But the work is in the valleys, you know. And it's like, you know, when people and I think, you know, mainstream media and then also, you know, we definitely focus at Psychicelica Day like highlighting. the healing potential, right? Because that's also a narrative that gets out there and people become interested in it.

But on the other side, we have to be really honest about the valleys, right? We only usually share the peaks, but what also happens in the valleys? And that's where a lot of the work actually happens. You know, it's like when you just go up to a mountain and you see this beautiful view and then, you know, nobody talks about, oh, like, you know,

now I'm back down here. And it's like, you know, you're always talking about, how that view is amazing, right? Right. But the work is here. The work is here. Yeah, I think the work in the valleys is vital. It's vital. It's unintended. So how do you move?

So you and Joe are cataloguing these speeches. You're talking to fascinating people. You've begun to grow this thing. At what point in time does it become a reality? We're like, hey, we're going to help people. We're going to other people, we're going to show them this trailer. What was that transition like? I think the reality hit when people started reaching out to us saying they listened to the show

and letting us know like, wow, that was a really awesome episode or like, you know, wow, that, that story, you know, changed. And that started hitting us going, whoa, people are actually listening to us, you know, people are actually like tuning into this. And I think that's what really kind of kept us going of like people giving us feedback and going like, wow, this was like a really profound episode or like that was you know you guys provide such a really valuable resource to the field and you know those are the things that like really kind of kept us going from a business perspective you know it was also like we started launching classes and people signing up for classes just try to sustain the podcast of going like you know how do we just make a little bit of money to pay for hosting and you know stuff

like that i mean i was doing grad school at that time and i was living with my my folks and so my my bills were pretty low. So I was able to kind of focus on developing psychedelics today and focus on grad school. But yeah, it really, I think, didn't start hitting us until, yeah, people started reaching out. And then when we started kind of, yeah, making, just having some income there to support the show through education, we're like, hmm, this is interesting. But at no point, it was like, we want to create a psychedelic business, you know, it wasn't like, you know, now after Michael Paul, the pollinator effect, right? It's like, people wanting you to come in and create businesses at no point.

We're like, we're going to create like, you know, this huge, like business. It was just like, we just want to have fun, interview people. We want to have conversations with folks. And, you know, and then we're just like, oh, man, this is actually costing a lot of time and money. How do we just make a little bit of money to just pay for web hosting, you know, or pay for the podcast hosting?

Yeah, it's an interesting move. And then, you know, Michael Pollan comes along. And he does so much for the world of psychedelic. and, you know, how to change your mind. And on some level, you know, I think that he really got people to see it in a way that stripped away some of the taboo from it. Like, you're a drug addict. Are you going to tune in and drop out, man?

Like, you know, and that's a pretty recent thing, at least for our generation, where we got to see this kind of taboo stripped away from it. You know, we grew up and this is your brain on drugs. And here comes this boomer that's like, Yes, you know what? It's pretty good. You know, it was dichotomy there. How did you see that affect change in what you were doing? Yeah. Yeah. By that point, what was that? 2018. So we were already doing it for about two years. We started receiving so many emails like every day. And then I'd say around 80 to maybe 90% of those emails that came in right after how to change your mind came out was started off with, I just read Michael Pollan's book. And it just that's how it's how it's how it's. And what was really interesting was it was a lot of older folks saying, like, I was around during the 60s, I put all this on hold, I read Michael Pollan's book, and now I'm interested in exploring it again. You know, he is a very prolific writer and he has a huge audience and for him to come out and share his experiences because it's scary to talk about, right? We're still dealing with like taboo and stigma and we're talking also about illegal substances.

And so for somebody with that statue, like just being able to come out and talk about. talk about his experiences almost, I don't know, might have made people from that era feel a little bit safer of exploring it, going, hmm, what's going on here? So, yeah, it was fascinating. It definitely had a huge impact in a way. Yeah. So we've spoken a little bit about the medical container. And I want to talk more about that. But I'm going to take a quick little side trail over here. When we talk about Michael Paulin and some of the older individuals who may have been a around in the 60s. Isn't it interesting that such a large generation of us,

and I mean like the human condition, like so many of us, this big generation finds themselves at the next transition, whether it's a mortality experience, whether it's going home, or whether it's coming to the conclusion that you have a lot of unrealized dreams that are never going to happen.

These are all giant things to bump up against. And in my lived experience, and some of the people that I've spoken to, that seems to be a lot of anxiety there. And a lot of these people are turning to this idea of like, okay, how do I get a handle on this fear? What can I do to come to groups with that? What do you think about this older group of people who are maybe coming to terms with

death and the idea of using psychedelics to get a different perspective on it? I think it's important, right? Because as we were just talking about, like we're a very kind of like death-diverse culture. And if people can, and you know, I think some cultures, viewed these substances as transitory tools to help people transition. And then I think what the, you know, the research at Hopkins and NYU and some of those other institutions looking at psilocybin for terminal illness and anxiety was really showing from a scientific perspective that people were able to have radical change, right? Like that, you know, that first article

that came out by Hopkins that like 75% of people like, you know, their personality change, especially long term, that's huge, right? And so, you know, if we're a culture that doesn't think about our actions and death to finally come to a point in your life where then it starts to become very real and then to start to meditate on it, but not having a container or tools to explore it. Like I always think, I took this class in my undergrad called One Year to Live and it was all about death and dying. And this is a quote that I think about.

And pretty often, I always think like, you know, death is kind of always on my shoulders. I'm always thinking about it. And people are, you know, always ask me like, you know, are you afraid to die? There's one part that it's like, no, you know, I know that something is going to continue on. And, you know, I felt, it felt safe. Other hand, there's a lot of cool shit I want to do. There's a lot of cool stuff I want to experience. And so I think I'm more afraid of time.

not having time to fully experience this experience that I'm down here embodying right now. And, you know, I also know that I'm holding on and having expectations around things I want to experience. But life is pretty cool, you know? Like, there's a lot of cool stuff you can experience here. And I want to, like, try to experience it all. But in this class, there's a saying saying, how you live your life is how you prepare. for death and how you prepare for death is how you live your life and if we don't have these rituals or these concepts of how we're approaching this like how are we living our lives and i think that

has a huge impact just on the human species right like if if we're just like a toss away culture don't worry i'm just going to toss it away what does that say to the next generations that come in right we're just going to continue to pollute waters we're going to continue to destroy the the ecosystem it's going to have huge impacts but if we can start to to think about, you know, what does this mean to leave this world and leave it behind to a new, the younger generations? How do we treat all this? And I just don't think we think about that quite often. And maybe we do, maybe some people do more than others. But I think as a generalization for the culture, we don't think about that at all. And yeah, I think to be able, I liked,

it was Pindar, the Greek poet Pindar, he talked about, Some of his experience, I think one of the few people that wrote about his experience in Elusus with the Greek mystery writes, but he said it was dying before dying, right? So what's it like to practice that beforehand? And I mean, if you look at a lot of those like Eastern philosophies and meditation, right, working through the bardos, working through these states, right? And they're constantly trying to practice that before it actually ever comes. Yeah, it's like we're a culture of uninitiated peoples, right?

Yeah. And I think it's important. Yeah, I'm just seeing this comment here by Tom. It's like, ritual is so important to human development, right? Like, it is. And we kind of lack it in our culture to some degree. Yeah.

I love what you said about, you know, I've heard that quote, he who dies before he dies never dies. He or she, whatever we want to go with. But like, you know, it seems to me, like, if one thing I've found, to be very helpful in my life is to not look at yourself as an individual, but part of the species.

Like you're part of a whole. I'm like, you can look at your father and make, that's the old version of me. And my son is the younger version of me. What is my responsibility here? Or even that your elders, you know, this idea of you respect your elders and just talking to people who are in palliative care or who know they're going to die but have made peace with it. Or you can just read a biography. And any biography you read is like, no one ever says, I wish I would have worked on the office more.

I wish I would have made way more money. No one ever says that. But what they do say is, I wish I would have been a better husband. You should have been a better brother. We should have been a better son. You know, I wish I would have been a better person. I wish I would have to experience life more. And like that, just reading that biography or hearing that sentence from me or someone

that you're elder, that can fundamentally shift your life. Because if that's what someone at the age of 80 is saying, why doesn't a person at the age of 50 start doing it? And if the person at the age starts 50 doing it, maybe my kid sees that and it's like, yeah, I'm never going to work for a multi-year. I'm never going to work for a multinational corporation, at least not until they change their identification of what a worker is. I'm not going to be a wage slave. That's crazy. I'm going to give up my whole life for that.

And we've been on a long pathway where we decided that that's what you do. This is life. You just come in here and you work here and then that's it. Maybe as a species, we're beginning to transition from an adolescent to an adult. Like we're finally getting to a point where we're going to make the decisions that we have a better life. And I think psychedelics are a giant part of that because they allow you to sneak up on this other perception of like,

like the question you asked as a young man, what the hell am I doing here? Like that's a species specific question, I think. And if we began having that conversation, you know, just young guys listening to you, young women or young men listening to that story provides them with enough catalyst to be like, yeah, what the hell am I doing here?

And that's enough sometimes, man. What do you think as an individual as a species, looking at it from a species specific area. Like how we kind of, can you repeat that question again? Yeah, yeah. How, what do you think about the opinion of seeing ourselves as part of a whole? You know, and you can look to the future and you can look to the past right in your own life. I think it's so important.

And I think that we maybe haven't been doing that very often. And I mean, I always come back to, you know, there's two sayings. There's that old Native American proverb. And I don't see multiple things. Maybe it's not true. Maybe it's true. But we're borrowing the earth and the land from the younger generation, right? Because our actions are affecting them.

And what we're doing is, yeah, we're borrowing it. And then I always think about Bucky Fuller, right? We're living here on spaceship Earth. You know, we are on this huge spaceship floating through space and time. And we're on it, we're in it together. And we have to, we kind of have to think about what are we doing? doing here. You know, like, you know, are, is the human like species supposed to help stored the earth, right? Help to like keep it going in a way. Or are we this like really interesting species that's

supposed to evolve and merge with technology and, you know, extract everything from the earth? And, you know, I don't know. I don't have those answers. But I think there are things that we should be thinking about, right? Like how, how do we relate to AI? How do we relate to machines and, you know, technology as it advances. And, you know, there's there's a little bit of me that is like the romantic in it and go, we're supposed to be stored. Let's all go back to the earth and this and that. But at the same time, like, quality of life, you know, I don't think any of us could really, you know, like, go back that way. I think the only thing that will make us go back that way is like huge disasters that force us to go back in there. But, you know, and then maybe, you know,

there's those other ideas of maybe we are supposed to be traveling through the cosmos. And maybe we do need to merge with this technology and invent and create. You know, so it's like, I don't know. And this is all stuff I've explored in my trips and in my breathwork experiences. And again, I don't have the answer. I think, I don't know if we'll ever have the answer. But I think it's important to just ask the questions because it helps us to like, I think, just show up differently.

And then if we're not even asking those questions, then we're just kind of going through life pretty blind and just kind of going with the motion. which to some degree, you know, I always like to look at nature for examples. It's like bees, for example, you need all those certain bees from the drone bees to the worker bees, so this and that. And sometimes, yeah, we just need people to just show up and do the work. And, you know, you need other people that are like the visionaries. So we need a diverse ecosystem as well. And we need people to fulfill those roles.

But I think we as a species, I think we do need to think about the world in which we have. it and how we treat it and our relationship to it. Because I think our relationship to it is that it's all dead matter and I can do whatever I want to do to it versus this is something that we're in a relationship with and we have to think that we're a part of it. We're not separate of it. I think that's like kind of what the Cartesian paradigm that we've been living in is. We've split mind and body and man and nature, you know, human in nature. And that's something that maybe we have control over it versus it being a relationship. There's a quote that I was watching this snowboarding documentary when I was like 18.

They're all going out to Alaska. And they're like, if you're not afraid to be out here or you're not nervous to be out here, you shouldn't be out here. And they're saying the mountains are alive. They're constantly changing. And, you know, my naive mind back then was like, oh, no way. But, you know, once you start to emerge yourself in nature, you start to really ask that question. Like, who's really in charge here?

You know, nature sometimes has its own sort of intelligence and just kind of doing what it does. And, you know, especially for those in the psychedelic world and you've maybe drank ayahuasca and stuff like that, that might come up for you. You know, who's actually in charge here? The plants in charge? Like, who's guiding this whole thing? I don't know. There are fun questions to entertain and explore. Yeah.

Yeah, it's fascinating to think about on that same topic of expanding and contracting. And you think of this expanding Cartesian model and how for the last hundred years, we've used mechanistic metaphors to describe nature and how weird that is. Like, what are we going to, that's not a machine, you know, but like, hey, what is it? If I call this a machine, like, what does that mean the way I see the world? And on some levels, I think that, you know, maybe we couldn't fix the world until now. Maybe we didn't have the tools. And I start looking at language.

And we'll get into some of these ideas with what you're doing with Vital and some of the pathways you're providing for the next generation. But when you look at language as a living language and all of a sudden we're beginning to understand, wow, there's texture to emotions. There's texture to language. We didn't know all that 50 years ago. What does it mean to have a depth of knowledge? What does it mean when you see patterns in people? But those patterns have textures. Like, holy cow, like, okay, now we can begin to fundamentally communicate meaning to each other.

Before everyone's side monologuing and, you know, am I soliloquy over here? I am going to put a flag on this mountain. It's mine. You know, like we had these incredible ways of acting out because we didn't know any better. In some ways that I think that allows us to forgive a little bit and be like, okay, we went way too far down that road. Let's pull it back, expanding and contracting. And now all of a sudden we find ourselves here coming up on 2024, where there have been some states that have given the nod to psychedelics. And you have put together an incredible static that I was going through.

So maybe we can check out some of these numbers about, you know, the emerging psychedelic workforce and some of these classes or, you know, is there like, let me just, let's introduce them here. I mean, I have a couple printed up. But is there anyone you want to touch on first or how do you want to start on that? Yeah. And I guess we'll just kind of, we'll make a nod to the workforce. And yeah, also kind of, I just want to make a comment. Yeah, anything, man. We're critiquing maybe this Cartesian model.

And to some degree, it's like we needed it. I wouldn't be here without it. We wouldn't be doing this. It was necessary. It was necessary. So it's necessary. Yeah. And it's just part of our human evolution.

But, you know, we also have to, yeah, question maybe where we're going. And I think that's where history is really fascinating to kind of learn and adapt and evolve and see where we're going. But, I mean, I'm thankful that Newton, Descartes has shaped our. physics and our sciences and all that stuff. But yeah, and then also what are the limitations of it? And I think that's just like where it comes into play. Like, where are some of the limitations and how do we continue to evolve? But yes, you mentioned this workforce. And this is, we put out a document, an article, kind of a little research thing at psychedelics today called the emerging psychedelic

workforce and we sent a kind of survey out to, I think it was around 100 and 130 students from our vital program. And for those that are listening, I guess we haven't really mentioned that. We made some nods to it. But vital is our 12-month certificate program at psychedelics today. And really trying to train people in harm reduction, risk reduction, integration, the basics of like ethical space holding and what does that mean? And so, yeah, we sent out this survey to just kind of get an idea of like, you know, there's all these graduates that just came through our program.

So obviously it's a select audience, but we're just trying to get some sort of number and idea. Right. Around who's entering into the workforce here and that the workforce isn't just in the medical model and, you know, the psychotherapy. You know, if you asked me maybe even five years ago how to get involved in the field,

I probably would have told you to go get a clinical psychology degree, a counseling degree, some sort of research degree, because that's where it's going to be. But, you know, there's so many different, like, you know, ways that people can get involved now. And even just as a psychedelic business owner, you know, I'm thinking about people like, you know, graphic artists that are psychedelically literate and competent,

accountants, lawyers, like, you know, copyrighters, like everybody that has a skill, but being able to develop, and I like to say with Vital, we're trying to help train people develop psychedelic literacy and competency so that they can go back to their communities in whatever kind of way that they're showing up in their communities

to then be a resource, whether you're an advocate, an educator, your business owner, you're a therapist, you're in the medical profession, you're working with clients, you know, to develop that literacy is going to be important as the field really starts to grow because there's a lot of misunderstanding,

information out there. There's a lot of nuance that really comes with this type of work. And we do. We need a lot of educated and literate and competent people out there to help shift that narrative, right? Because the main thing that this field is really bumping up against, which for those that are listening and you might be in the psychedelic world, we're also in a little bit of a bubble. Maybe it feels like, you know, everybody's on board with it. But, you know, you also have to think the algorithms do really well. I don't know how many weird microdosing supplement things. I keep getting promoted on Instagram.

I'm like, I'm getting away with this. My whole feed is like psychedelics. Everybody's into psychedelics. You know, the algorithms make you feel really like you're in a bubble sometimes.

But yeah, and so some of the survey data that we released was that people are really wanting to work with a lot of different marginalized groups. So around 81.4% of people plan to or are, currently working with marginalized groups. And so I think that really gives a nod that this work, people want to help folks, right? We want to help to better our communities and help to get access for these medicines or other techniques and modalities that provide professional and personal

development. Around 36 percent identified as non-white. So just talking about this growing ethnic diversity, which is important. You know, I think that number is a little low. And, you know, if we look at research, you know, it's even probably lower than that because of all challenges. And so that's definitely an area where, you know, the field really needs to kind of progress and help out with. And then I found this to be really interesting. Around 50.4% of people might want to work in fields beyond facilitation and therapy. And so like I mentioned, if you asked me like five years ago, I would have said to become a facilitator or do therapy, go get your counseling degree.

But over half of our students mentioned that, you know, they want to maybe work in media, academia, biotech, cultivation, marketing, finance. Like, you know, there's going to be like a huge sector of places where people can start to go if the industry continues to evolve and grow. And then people are also, might be incorporating it into their existing career. So again, if becoming a little bit more psychedelic literate, Like maybe you have a skill. You have a niche already.

And I always say, like when people are asking, how do I get involved? It's like, what do you want to offer to the world? What is your skill? What's your unique offering? And then you can add psychedelics on top of that. Right. So not needing to do a full career switch. Like we have a student that has, and I guess a little bit maybe of the bias of the survey of, you know,

people going beyond facilitation is a lot of training programs out there. are just specific to therapists and clinicians. And we made a decision to make it more inclusive because watching states and local ordinances shift policy. So we know how many local ordinances have decriminalized plant medicine, how many people out there are doing their own community healing. It's really important to get people trained up on risk reduction, harm reduction, and integration so that they can help to be a resource in their community.

And so, and then we looked at like Oregon and Colorado and as they're starting to move for a license kind of track without any sort of, you know, professional license. Like in Oregon, if you want to become a facilitator, you need to take a training program, but you don't need a clinical license to get involved. And so, you know, the field will get a little bit more diverse on who can come in. And so vital our program, we have been a little bit more inclusive, which I think is important as a field grows and evolves. And also, I think, helps with accessibility, you know, because paying somebody that's licensed and two people for some of this stuff can get really expensive. And that is the question. How do we make psychedelics accessible? And I think that's where having a diverse ecosystem will play a role in that where you will have a medical model. You'll have the therapy track for people that really need it.

You'll have a community model where people are kind of taking into their own hands. and to be honest, most people are already doing that, right? If we're really honest. Of course. You'll have a religious and maybe spiritual use case where, you know, churches and stuff kind of spring up, which, again, you're already seeing that. And then I thought this was the most interesting thing. And maybe also not interesting because it is maybe within the psychedelic ethos,

but making money isn't the goal for most of the people that did this. So 98.3% of the respondents indicated that making money is not their primary motivation for her. entering into the field. And I find that to be really interesting, right? Because this is a field that people get, it feels like a calling for a lot of people. People just want to help.

And, you know, there are those folks that see the hype and want to get on the train and think it's like Cannabis 2.0 to make a bunch of money really quick. But I think for those that are really in it, understand it's a little bit more nuanced than that. And, you know, this is definitely a different field to some degree. Yeah, I like that. I think that it seems that the first car on the train is this medical container.

But I do see maybe the next car being like an optimization car, you know, because I see athletes beginning to find ways to, you know, pregame or think about things, you know, on different doses you can train at different levels and, you know, just a different perspective shift you can get from, you know, there's been tons of studies. Well, I don't know about tons, but I recently read a study a while back where they brought people in that couldn't solve a work problem for a year and they gave them a small dose and they were able to figure out a different solution or see things different. Education is going to play a part in there.

But yeah, it's interesting how even with cannabis, you know, I'll say with cannabis now, it seems like the the method of monetizing cannabis and monetizing psychedelics outside of a medical model is almost non-existent. You know, it's very difficult to take a company public and monetize it in some sort of way. Do you see, some people say that psychedelics may be like cannabis in that. There's this big rush and then it kind of falls off. What do you think is, is there some patterns that we should look for? from cannabis? Is cannabis maybe like the older brother of a model or is, is psychedelics its own thing, or are they combined? What's your take on the two industries? Yeah, you know, I'm not an expert

in the cannabis world, but, you know, I think there are a lot of folks that are saying, how can we learn from cannabis? My also thing is like for a lot of people, cannabis, people like to recreate with it, right? It's a daily thing to do. You're not taking psychedelics every day. You know, Besides possible the micro dosing regimens that people do, like that could be a daily type of product that people might do. And then they do it for like a few months and then they fall off versus cannabis. I mean, you see people daily habits multiple times a day, right? And it's more of a consumer product where people are engaging with it every day to some degree.

Whereas psychedelics, I mean, it might only be every once in a while, you know. And so. And when we think about the accessibility piece, especially when it comes to like therapy, and we brought this up, how much is a therapy session going to cost for folks, right? Like, you know, I think the estimate for like an MDMA therapy trial for PTSD could be anywhere between maybe the low end, 12, 15 to 30 plus thousand dollars, depending who you're paying, how long the sessions are, and stuff like that. And so, you know, is that going to be, you know, financially accessible for most folks?

And the answer is probably no. So to some degree, I think there probably are lessons to learn from cannabis because it is, you know, a mind kind of altering substance. And it's like, you know, people are rushing. And so, yeah, I think it's, but it's a totally different thing. It's a totally different substance. Even though cannabis can be very psychedelic for a lot of folks, right? And people can use it with that intention.

and develop a relationship with that plan. But, yeah, Psychics are just, I think, like a totally different thing. And you know what's really interesting is, and I come back to this, there was a woman that we had on the podcast a many years ago. We chatted a little bit offline. I wanted to ask her this during the recording, but we just didn't have time getting to it. The people that she studied with, I think she was in Peru,

we were talking about ayahuasca and how that culture in those peoples actually didn't drink ayahuasca all the time. And I asked, well, why is that? She said, well, in that village, if you drank ayahuasca, you would open these doors. And now you're starting to get into like more trans-person ideas, open the doors. And then the community also needs to be an agreement that you're going to be letting those energies in. And then so like what energies are we kind of letting in into that? And you know, a lot of people are, you know, doing this all the time.

and to some degree, we're letting that energy in a lot. Yeah. And so, you know, it's a different cosmology, but it also gets you thinking, like, you know, what are we doing when we're entering into these states? I mean, I've had some really interesting experiences where, you know, something comes up and then it starts to unfold. What the hell? What just happened there?

Yeah. It's really weird. But, yeah, and I think it's just a, it's going to be a totally different, totally different thing. And I think the folks that I've chatted with who are in the biotech world, either A, didn't have much experience with it. And they're viewing it as like cannabis 2.0 where they can make some of those weird.

I think where you could get into interesting stuff, and I think where biotech is really interesting, is that once you start making some of these new novel compounds of like maybe shorter duration, and maybe like just having better efficacy, and stuff like that. I do find that to be interesting. I know a lot of people don't always agree with stuff in the biotech world, but from a clinical perspective, like when I was doing ketamine therapy with clients, like doing a two-hour session from a clinical perspective, it was a lot cheaper for clients than say like a six to eight-hour session, right? And so being able to develop

new molecules that could be just as effective and shorter and thinking about resources, I think we should think about that also not toss it completely out, being a purist and a romantic, which I definitely am at times. You know, you also have to counter it with reality and stuff like that. You know, there's an interesting parallel, too. I was talking to an old school grower friend of mine from California that used to grow a ton of weed, cannabis, back before, you know, it got into the dispensaries or even when it got into the dispensaries, or even when it got into the dispensaries,

but before there became this incredible need for testing and this incredible need for sterilization. And on some level, you could say that these things were implemented to kind of shut down the industry. And whether it was something done on purpose or whether it was done in the name of safety, either way, it started putting up these giant restrictions for getting cannabis to market.

And it seems to on some level, That could be an echo that happens in the psychedelic community. Like, you know, I spoke into lots of people that have ketamine clinics and they have some of the best intentions in the world. But dude, they're making a lot of money. I can't imagine them paying a whole lot more than lip service. Like, yeah, this should totally be a lot freer, you know, or yeah, we should totally give someone's mushroom for like 10 bucks.

Like on some level, they can say that all they want, but like they definitely don't want to see their industry crash like that. Totally, yeah. I mean, that's how you make your living, right? It's threatening to your identity and to, you know, and I have to examine that myself. Like I went down the therapy route thinking they should be in therapy. And I've always had that idea of like it needs to be done in a certain container and then interacting with more people that are doing more kind of like community experiential stuff and hearing

the benefit that they get out of it. I have to pull back on my own bias and be like, oh yeah, like I just want to be able to be able to offer this and have a career in it. And then just being pulling back and being honest, I'm like, okay, where's my intentions here? But yeah, you know, people, you know, might be threatened that if it leaks outside the medical model, then their careers are at risk and, you know, stuff like that. And also harms, right? But I mean, harms happen in therapy and the medical establishment all the time.

So I think it's just part of human, human nature. I do too. And here's one that kind of the I've been thinking about lately. And thanks for being totally honest. They're like, I think that too. Like, I want to be, I want to be talking to all the cool people and psychedelics. I got this podcast. Me too.

I wanted to be awesome. But I had that same thought sometimes. And another thought that I think we may share is that a lot of the people with whom we enjoy our conversations with have found themselves by themselves at a younger age, experimenting with this thing. And I've been like, holy cow, this fundamentally changed the way I figured it out. And on some level, we came to that realization for ourselves. Like, we were our best integration code. We were the best person to see this thing. And like maybe it's not for everybody.

No, definitely. It's just for a few people that want to do it. And it's interesting to go down that road too, right? Well, and it's interesting too. Like, yeah, question, where is your own entry point in? Yeah. Especially as somebody that's trained more in the traditional world. I mean, I guess not traditional world.

But, you know, I went down a transpersonal route and all that stuff. But, you know, going down traditional therapy route and thinking, like should this be only in the therapy world and going where was my entry point i ate mushrooms out with my friends in the woods i had a spiritual experience and that was really interesting um and you know you you bring up a good point right this isn't going to be for everybody um and some some people should never touch these substances um i think there is that danger of the narrative of ever if we just dose the water everybody has psychedelics will like you know be healed and you know we also have to be very careful about that.

You know, I think there's some romanticism around some of that. And I think romanticizing, say, shamanic traditions, right? There's a lot of jealousy and hate that happens in those communities, right? And it's like if these are folks that are in healing and doing this and there's still human issues, interpersonal relationships that come up, that means we're not all enlightened, right? We still deal with the human element of relationships and sloppiness. and then all this stuff. But I forget where I was going.

I kind of went up on a little bit of a tangent. But yeah, oh, yeah, just like being honest, like where is our entry point? This isn't going to be for everybody. And what are some of the other things outside the medical that could be really helpful? Like when we were chatting with Dr. San Groff on the podcast, you know, I think I asked him like,

what do you see the future of psychedelics? And he was like, you know, hopefully you can take some LSD and go out on a hike. You know, and I think he mentioned it to our teacher, like our teacher Lenny, I think had a conversation with him and said, you know, Stan isn't this great? Like all the research is coming back and this and that. And Stan said, you know, a lot of it's been done, you know. And if you look at a lot of the research, a lot of it, I mean, not up to today's standards, right? Like the standards are very different. And so I get that critique that we weren't doing double blind research and it was way more experiential. And some of the stuff that they were doing back then definitely would not fly, maybe. passed like an FX board. But, you know, his comment was like, you know, we've done a lot of this stuff before. But the real potential of these substances is in creativity and art. And when we think about what is our purpose here and the issues that we're going to be battling up against, we need a lot of creativity, you know, like we're definitely going to need a lot of

creative problem solving. Like just to even think about, you know, jobs being taken away by AI? What are we going to do when, you know, people have a lot of free time and no income? I don't know if that will happen, but, you know, I know that as part of the narrative that people are, like, getting concerned about. And, you know, as AI advances, could there be jobs that are taken away? To Bucky Fuller's comment, we're here to make small local adjustments to the machine, so to some degree, we'll probably be serving that. But, you know, what happens? I mean, we need to be on top of it. We need to start kind of having a lot of creative problem solving thinking. Yeah. I'm all for a group of creative psychonauts making their part of the spaceship more

awesome. You know what I mean? Yeah. Totally. Totally. I don't know. It's a complex. It's very complex. And, you know, to your comment around like standardization and regulation, like, you know, how many, and especially with, with like more powdered substances. You know, I know there's a lot of contamination that happens in cannabis, but like when you're dealing with then

all of a sudden powders, like maybe DMT, MDMA or say acid, you know, you want to know what you're getting. You wanna know your dose, you wanna know that you're getting, you know, a safe supply. Because you know, the drug world is so contaminated and adulterated right now.

It's kind of scary. And so to some degree, having a little bit of that regulation, and legalization framework, I think is in the best mind of public safety to some degree of like knowing what you're getting, knowing that you're buying a tab of LSD and not, you know, a tab of like, say, 25-I-N bomb and then having some sort of issue come up, right? Or buying something that's contaminated with fentanyl. And that's like, you know, kind of the scary stuff. And so to some degree, you know, I think the black market will always exist, right? The black market thrives in cannabis. It's, you

a lot cheaper. Maybe you can get some like really niche kind of plants from, you know, you're the grower down the street or something like that that you can't get in the store. And maybe that will happen with with mushrooms, right? Like some guys experimenting with some interesting strain. Yeah. But, you know, I think having some sort of legal framework where people can get this as a safe supply because the reality is people are going to do it. You know, people are going to do it.

And if we're not doing testing or not having a safe supply, I think it actually puts little bit more danger to the public. Yeah. You know, sometimes I zook out on like mechanism of action. And I really like to follow some people that are talking about like what's happening. This is the 5H2A. And we have this, you know, this other thing happening over here. But the deeper you go down that rabbit hole, it seems to me like the less we know. Like we spent millions of dollars. Okay, well, what's happening here? Well, the long story is we have no clue. You know, It's like, it's fascinating to me to try and comprehend the mechanism of action. There's just so many variables.

Like, I feel like we'll never get our arms around it. But it is a way to move money through the system. What's your team on mechanism of action? That's funny because there's some quotes I've been reading over the past few weeks on this. And this is just one perspective of Stan Groff. So I guess like, first of all, I think neuroscience is also a very young field. And I have neuroscientists that are colleagues. and they'll also agree to that.

I think if you talk to any good neuroscientist that is really being critical of their own field, they'll tell you it's still early. And we don't always know things, right? It's like just because we know X, Y, and Z doesn't mean that that's true all the time, right? So I think, you know, it's still a young field and we're still working off of different hypotheses.

And, you know, that will continue to grow and evolve. But I come back to something Stance says, And maybe this is more of a philosophical approach and the scientific approach. But Stan has this quote, I think I grabbed it from his interview with Tim Ferriss. But my other colleague, Christine Calvert, I'm teaching a Groff course with. She has a quote from somewhere else. But the quote was something along the lines of when we're doing LSD research back in Prague in the 50s, in those early days, I realized we weren't doing psychopharmacology.

because if you start to do pharmacology, you know that if you give, you know, this drug, X drug to person, they might have X effect. So, you know, if we give somebody a tranquilizer, we know that they're going to fall asleep. If we give them, you know, this, X, Y, and Z is going to happen. He's like, but with LSD, we realize that there's no way of understanding what could happen to somebody. And then you could give somebody the same dose, the same set in setting, the same everything, and you're going to get a totally different experience. And so Stan has this thing that says, I realize people weren't having quote unquote LSD experiences. They're having an experience of psyche.

And then another quote he said, we realized we weren't doing pharmacology and people weren't having LSD experiences. they are having experiences of themselves. And so coming back to this notion that these are all vehicles, whether you're taking a psychedelic, you're doing breathwork, you're doing some sort of sensory deprivation, you're doing something that maybe involves extreme pain, right? Some rites of passages where they're doing really extreme stuff. You're getting to a state of consciousness where I just use psyche as a term.

you're getting in touch with psyche. Call it whatever you want it, whatever you're like, you know, however you relate to that. But you're touching to a core experience. The psychedelic might have a lot of flavors to it on the outside, right? But you're touching into a core experience of yourself, of psyche, of your spirit, your soul, of, you know, the collective uncount, whatever, however you want to identify with that. And Stan also has this follow-up quote and said something along the lines like, if I had, had any disbeliefs about this notion, they would have all been dispelled by our observations from polychipic breathwork, meaning that they're witnessing people have kind of similar

experiences during their breathwork experiences than on their psychedelic experiences. And how is that possible, right? And if we go back to this notion of this amplifier, this amplification process, right we're taking our inner our inner worlds and then making it bigger we're amplifying it and you know traditions like knew how to explore this in all different ways they're just different vehicles to get there and so i come from kind of a little bit of that bias and philosophical background where these are amplification of ourself and how do we know what we're going to experience right we have no idea what's going to unfold when you take a psychedelic. And that's a little nerve-wracking for a lot of folks,

especially if you're trying to do something a little bit more scientific, right? And you're trying to hopefully get some sort of, okay, we know that this is going to happen if we give X, Y, and Z. Sometimes that's like completely, you know, out the window. You know people are going to experience something within themselves, though. I think that's key. Like, that is definitely like, you know, you give somebody LSD or psychedelics. Sometimes you get the non-responders, right? People don't, you don't always respond.

But for the most part, people will have an experience of their inner world. And then Stan kind of even went back a little bit in this Tim Ferriss episodes talking about maybe even critiquing that idea of the non-specific amplifier of mental or psychic processes. Because then what happens when you have an experience with ayahuasca and you have the spirit inside of there, right? What is that? Is that psyche or psychic material or is that something external coming in? So I think he actually started to kind of critique that a little bit more, having some experiences with ayahuasca or maybe hearing people have experiences with ayahuasca. You know, where is that serpent come from, right? Is that an external thing that's being influenced?

Or you hear these folks on mushrooms are like, mushrooms told me, right? Terence McKenna said he was talking to Albert Hoffman and asking him, you know, do you prefer LSD, but I also know that you synthesize psilocybin, and supposedly, you can always take what Terrence says with a grant of salt, but he said

Albert Hoffman was suggesting that he preferred LSD over mushrooms because there's something animate in the mushroom space. LSD was less animate. it than mushroom. So then that brings this whole other notion of what hell's going on there, right? Like what are these entity things?

Is that just an abstraction of our psyche, an abstraction of parts within us? You know, if we're using like internal family system language, are these archetypes? Where are the archetypes come from? Are they just like, yeah, again, an amplification of us? Or are these things actually out there somewhere in the collective unconscious and they're quote unquote real? Not concrete, you know, and not something that you can physically touch, but it's a real experience that people have.

Now you're buffeted against the stuff that scientists love. You can't measure, right? But it's so imperative. I couldn't agree more. I think that this is where we are. Often you hear about the ineffable. You have this experience you can't explain.

I think that is necessary. I was talking to Sebastian Marcolo about his ideas on cannabis and fragmented highs and soilless mediums. But ultimately, We began having this conversation about, you know, science and philosophy. And, you know, he said he wrote a paper on, on, I'm probably going to butcher what he wrote it on. But it was like something of some sort of materialism where he says, you know what, George, the paper I wrote for my thesis speaks about folk psychology.

And in today's world, everyone has like a folk idea of psychology. Like we know what love is and we understand this. He goes, but I think in 20 years, we're going to actually understand what love is. Right now we just love might as well be magic. We don't know what's happening. We have no idea. So in 20 years, we're going to begin to understand why I love my wife. Why I think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world.

She's the most patient person. She's the most amazing woman in the world. And pretty soon I'll know that, oh, yeah, I thought that was love. But really, that's the interconnected balance we have between our language, our body language, and the way we dance together through our motion. You know, we're going to have an understanding of that. I think that we are right now coming up on the different kinds of language that will allow us to discover that, whether it's a serpent in the mushrooms,

whether it's the spirit in the mushrooms. But I think that gets us back to the evolving linguistics that you bump up against. I can't explain it. And you can't have an idea without a linguistic framework. And that's why so many people come back from these trips, like, I think I had this thing I want to explore, and they find this new idea. Like we're beginning, we're just now beginning to understand how to communicate. And I think psychedelics, be it, be it some sort of, you know, plant that you eat, whether it's a cannabis or whether it's mushrooms or whether it's LSD, all of us allow us to begin exploring this new world of communication.

Like that's where this idea that I was thinking about textured language, textured emotions, like, you know, what does it mean when emotions have depth, when there's synesthesia between language? language and emotion. You know, how come when you and I speak poetry, I get goosebumps or your face gets flushed, like we're actually communicating. And there's a synesthesia there. Like, we don't explore that enough. It seems that on some level, and maybe it's the Cartesian model we spoke about that I'm glad we got in.

I'm glad we hitchhiking. I picked us up and we got us here. But maybe this new vehicle is going to have an air conditioner in it or it's going to have a radio. The language is getting better is what I'm trying to. Yeah. I mean, you make a really, really great point about all this stuff. And also thinking about the technology and the things that we don't.

Yes. Right? Like, you know, what are we not measuring? Because we don't understand what to measure. And yeah, there's so much room for you. And I love like when maybe two narratives that can come together. Like it was in 2013 at the MAPS conference, Dr. Joe tofer. And, you know, it's been a while since listening to this, obviously.

But he was trying to bridge shamanic tradition and Western science together. And talking about maybe from one of the shamanic cultures, you know, they're talking about maybe this idea of like hungry ghost. Or, you know, there's this stuff that causes disease in our body. And then from the scientific language perspective, he was saying, like, that sounds a lot like all aesthetic load, right? And so, you know, it's like we have different language for the same extent. experience. And then Jeremy Narby, who wrote the cosmic serpent, going back to that serpent idea,

you know, he had this whole hypothesis around, you know, since the serpent is part of the cosmology of, say, maybe the Shephebo, that's how they identify with it. But coming from the scientific perspective, like, what about Francis Crick seeing, like, or kind of getting the idea for DNA, right? And omitting that, you know, LSD, played a role. Or you have Kerry Mullis talking about the development of the PCR, right, from that and understanding that kind of. And then I think, yeah, Narby was saying, like, what if we're actually just, from our perspective, like looking at the DNA within our bodies when we're going inward, right? And then those visions, I think he went a little bit further saying

those DNA actually transmits small photon particles. And what if all those lights and the visions Are you tuning in to the body's photo, like, you know, emitting these small photon particles? And it's just a different language, right? You might, like, one language and cosmology might understand it from the snake. Another cosmology might view it as DNA and from a scientific. And it's interesting when we can start to weave those two paradigms together and understand that maybe we are talking about the same thing, but it's a different language. And how do we not dismiss it, right? We had Dr. Joe Tifer come and give a presentation with us in Vital.

And one of the students asked, you know, are the shamans interested in learning about Western psychology? He's like, yeah, yeah, they want to know about it, right? Because they only know one system, right? And I think that's where we have to be really cautious when we romanticize. That, you know, some people have it figured out, others don't. I think we're all trying to figure it out. And we all have different language and kind of different narrative around how we approach it.

So just because somebody's saying that there's hungry ghosts, you know, how do we find some sort of like common language where maybe the science does back some of that stuff up? How's the grief that you're holding on to that you didn't grieve, you know, somebody that died is still inside your body maybe causing stress and illness, right? And from that perspective, the hungry ghost that you didn't grieve is causing your depression still. and that ghost is still lingering. And so it will be interesting when science and kind of like, yeah, you called it like folk psychology, come together and start to like understand one another. Yeah. Generational trauma, you know, that sounds a lot like that.

You know, it's, in translation means interpretation. You can see it in text. Why wouldn't it be in cultures? You know, like if you try to translate something from Hebrew versus. versus the original Greek, like it's going to come different. And who's the person translating it? Like, what, does that person have a motive in there? Like, yeah, this definitely says this.

This is my property right here. It says right there. It's fascinating to think about on that level. And, you know, on some levels, it's, it just, I think it speaks to us being somewhat of an adolescent species. Like, we don't know. And so we make up reasons why. We want to, a lot of people want an authority figure.

We want to know why. So we'll make something up. And you know what? This is the guy over here that knows. How does he know? Well, he went to school for it. Well, his dad knew. Or, you know, but does he really know?

Probably not. And like, you know, another thing I was speaking with Dr. Ledbadev, who is from Russia. He's done some brilliant work on different psychedelics. And we were talking about neuroplasticity. And we got out. We found ourselves on that, on that recent study that came out of Scandinavia. where they're trying to take the magic out of magic mushrooms where can you have the results without the trip? And, you know, I had a pretty interesting trip a while back yesterday where, and I think this speaks to the idea that information is revealed to you.

It's not that you learn. It's revealed to you. Like, and here's what I had asked. I'm like, doesn't it seem to you, at least in my opinion, that the difficult part of the trip is the physical manifestation of, of neuroplasticity. That's why you can't take it out. That's what it feels like to have five months of therapy in an hour. Like you're going to act weird. You're going to see crazy stuff. You're going to freak out because your brain is rewiring itself and it's doing it in an hour. Like that's five hours or three hours of therapy or maybe five months of therapy or something like that. It seems to me that that is the manifestation of neuroplasticity.

Why wouldn't it be? But how would you study that? Like there's no real way to keep the baby and the bathwater in there. You know, in science, like, that's way too subjective, man. We can't even look at that. We need to, we need a slide rule and a compass. Which I get from a scientific perspective, right? Like, you need things that you can measure. Of course. But yeah, these are like sometimes unmeasurable things, which makes it really hard, right? And I don't know. I think there's definitely like some scientists that I've spoken to that are really interested in it, right? Yeah, me too. They don't always talk about it. Of course. That we shunned. They're talking it can't publish if they do that probably from the scientific perspective but i mean these are

all the interesting things i yeah that i think as a and this part of the reason why joe and i started psychedelics today was like transpersonal phenomenon is is very real and when we were going to these early conferences um in like 2010 2012 it was mostly kind of based on the science which makes sense because we needed to really talk about the science and not be in the transpersonal but we said transpersonal psychology is going to play a huge role here. What happens when people have these really big transformative experiences? I think I mentioned that term spiritual emergence, the term that Christina and Stan Groff coined. And how do we hold that? How do we make sense of it? And, you know, I think this is where the transpersonal perspective is going to be really important as the

psychedelic field evolves and grows. But yeah, but it's also very challenging to measure. Yeah. That would be an interesting conversation to either have on my podcast or maybe you guys have had some people come on from like a shamanic perspective and a science perspective. You could get two people willing to talk to each other. That would be a fascinating conversation. It would be the two, the cadula or whatever the snakes are going up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that is the, you know, like you said, it's DNA. It's the double helix, right? Like Francis Crick talked about it. It's fascinating to take about on some levels. What? So you've already had one cohort come through Vital.

Or have you had more? Two cohorts already. Yeah, we're just about to start our third cohort in January. Yeah, so we typically kicked it off around Bicycle Day in April, which has been, yeah, it was a fun secondary initiative. It just kind of happened to line up that way for the first year. And then we're like, let's do it again the second year. This year, we're switching to January to try to get a little bit more on an academic schedule to have a little bit more kind of like summer break for teachers and instructors and students. and whatnot. But yeah, so this will be our, yeah, this will be our third cohort, which I'm super

excited about. It's been a really wild time developing and teaching and vital. I've learned so much. Like, again, like I think, you know, I've been in this world for quite a while thinking I know some things and then just being blown away by the things I don't know, right? Because this feel, I like to remind people, we're just at the beginning, kind of. In Western, society. Sure. Like indigenous cultures have, have like been interacting with these plants for, you know, however long, right?

Right. But for Western society, this is still pretty new. And we're just at the beginning. And I think there's so much that we can learn. And that's exciting, right? Like new therapy protocols, trying to weave in the shamanic and scientific world views. Like, you know, so, yeah, I've learned so much over the past, like, what is it? Coming on two years almost.

And yeah, the students have been fantastic, really engaged. Yeah, it's just been, it's been a really wonderful journey. Without giving away too much of the secret sauce, is there like, can you talk a little bit about the curriculum? Like, do you layer it in a way where, okay, this is the first initiative? Like, in the beginning, we're going to start with breathwork or first we're going to talk about microdosing. Is there like a certain sort of layering that comes in the curriculum? Yeah, we're doing a little bit of a change. this year but and we're still kind of working on it so I'm not gonna so I'll talk about like

some of the previous years sure it's not going to be like big changes just little program tweaks from all the fantastic feedback that we've been receiving years from students but traditionally the first module we have kind of oriented it around the elements so earth with earth air fire ether and And what am I missing? I always miss one. Water. Did I say water?

I think you missed. I think you said water now. Okay. And so, yeah, we kind of oriented around the elements. And, you know, there's so many different ways of understanding the symbols and the elements from different, like, traditions and perspectives. So we start off with the foundation module. And so what is, what are psychedelics, indigenous perspectives around psychedelics? Some of the early research that was done in psychedelics.

So we've had Dr. Bill Richards present who, you know, maybe along with like Stan Groff and a few others, probably the longest, you know, person that's been working in psychedelics that's still alive, present on, you know, what that was like in those early years. And then the emerging landscape, how it's evolving and some of the legal and kind of ethics, law around psychedelics. And so that's kind of like our foundation course.

And I relate that to air. And when I think about air, I think about it from one of the medicine wheels and thinking about the mind, psyche. We think about wisdom and eldership. So again, trying to pull on a lot of the elders in the space that teach us about what they know, what they've lived through, and thinking about, you know, how do we move forward as the field grows and evolves. And then the second module historically has been preparation, assessment, and integration. No, just integration is the last module. I sometimes will lump in integration with preparation because it's all one of the same. But really thinking about clinical assessment, risk reduction, harm reduction,

like how to have conversations with folks around psychedelics, helping people make more informed choices and decisions. And then we have an experiential component. So people come to a retreat. And in the past, we've done breathwork retreats and medicine retreats in legal countries like the Netherlands and Jamaica. And so we really think experiential learning is really important to have an experience. And then we do a model that Stan,

Stina developed for the breathwork model where you have a breather and sitter pair. So you get to actually sit with somebody in that non-ordinary state and maybe feel what it's like to sit with folks while they're in the journey space, which I think is really powerful. And people get a lot out of it too. And then we are really also focused on like the inner work. So we also encourage people to do an experiential elective. So they can go on and, you know, maybe it's like taking an IFS training, go to a meditation retreat, maybe it's going to a breathwork workshop.

Really to continue their inner work. Sometimes people have gone to like, somebody I think went to like Youngian therapists to work on her dreams, you know? So it's like really, again, encouraging that inner work because I think so much of this is doing your inner work. Then we have a module on kind of like clinical application and like all the research that's happened

and the research that is happening, so understanding it more from that scientific perspective. Then we have a module on navigating the psychedelic experience. So we talk a lot about maybe like what is transpersonal experiences, how to navigate that, how to navigate group work, how to be a little bit more trauma-informed and focused. And so weaving in a lot of somatic psychology into that. And then the last module is on integration.

And so hopefully by that time, people have maybe done their experiential elective. They've gone to a retreat. And then we focus on, okay, you've been through this. Now let's focus on what does it mean to integrate these experiences and how do we work through our own process still. So it is a pretty intensive program. I just got off a call today.

I'm running this inner work group as an elective. And then we have two elective cycles. And there's all sorts of different stuff. We have like classes on ketamine for those that are really interested that are working in the clinical space there. I'm running this inner work group right now, so focus on dream work and some breath work and stuff like that. And we've had like classes on business and all sorts of stuff. So it's a very comprehensive program, very kind of like also broad overview as well.

Some feedback that I got a lot of people really kind of appreciate that broad perspective because they don't know what they want to work in and what they want to do. And so it gives like a nice perspective there. Somebody I think said it's like a liberal arts degree in psychedelics, which is, which is pretty cool. I like that perspective on it. Yeah. Do you have like, it seems like it would be, it seems like it would be a great, it seems like there's a lot of room for strategic partnerships. Like partnering with like Zendo or something like that or, you know, going and having your own place set up where, hey, this is from the psychedelics today class. We're over here.

We're going to help people, you know, and just. seems like there's a lot of opportunities for strategic partnerships. Have you thought about that? Totally. Yeah. I was thinking about like pipeline of like, you know, do we have places where students can go afterwards? How do students build community? Yeah, who are those strategic partners, whether it's like retreats or different services, stuff like that. So we're constantly thinking about it and trying to create those pipelines for students and for ourselves as well. So it's slowly growing, you know, the field's evolving as it evolves. And as I like to remind people, you know, we're just in the beginning here. And so, you know, there's definitely going to be a little bit

ups and downs and bumps in the road as we figure it out. But that's also the exciting thing of being part of a new emerging field, kind of being on the forefront of it all. So. And a lot of those places, you know, there's only cert limited places where maybe people can go or different businesses we can partner with. So, you know, it's also very limited. And people's bandwidth are really limited. We might find like a really great partner, but they're limited and their bandwidth and stuff like that and vice versa, right? It's like so, you know, as it grows and evolves and the field maybe stabilizes a bit, that will become more concrete over the years. I'm thinking maybe you could partner with Tesla for a new school electric, Kool-Aid acid test school bus and new berry places.

Why not, right? I have heard Elon talk about his ketamine treatments and stuff like that, so you might be on board. You know, I don't think it would take too many people. I'm sure we could probably both make a few phone calls. People in Silicon Valley are like, hey, man, can you sponsor a bus? We're going to get the – at least you could get it moving down that lane. Why not have a new – you could go from Kentucky all the way over to Colorado, up to Oregon, play some music along the way. Anyways, it's funny to think about – no.

So you've spoken a little about yourself and Joe, both awesome individuals. But I know that you have a whole team. of people that are working at vital. Maybe you can shine some light on some of the teachers from, from Victoria to Swati to some of the, from Casey, all these people you have working. Shine a little light on some of the teachers working with you. Oh, man. Yeah, our team is amazing and they're just such a dedicated group of folks.

And I mean, me and Joe are just so thankful every day. I'm just like, how do we find such awesome people to work with and people that just feel so kind of committed to this cause and stuff? So yeah, at PT, like you mentioned Victoria. She's like the head of our media department. So helping to put out schedule podcasts and blogs and line everything up. And she's really a rock star. Swati just came on and is new and is helping us out with some of the marketing stuff.

And she's amazing as well. On the vital side, we have David, who he is the director of training and education at psychedelics today. So he's helping out with like course development, helps out with the curriculum at Vital. He teaches in Vital. Again, like just rock star of a person. So sweet and kind. And then Johanna, Hila, she is the coordinator over at Vital. And I mean, she is just, yeah, another just rock star of a person helping to just, you know, keep everything in check.

I feel like I just have like a lot of ideas and things like that and big picture. and she just helps to keep everything organized. And I mean, yeah, I feel like vital would not be vital without all of her hard, hard work. And then it's amazing. Everybody's like all over the place. You know, Johanna's in the UK, David's in Israel, Victoria's in Canada. And then we also have Diego, who's in Australia. He teaches an Australia-specific course for us for those folks.

because different regions have different laws, different things. So he's kind of streamlining some Australia-related content. He's an instructor and vital. And then also does a lot of our backend stuff to uploading content, which is amazing. And then creating review notes and quizzes and also program development. And, yeah, he's just awesome too. But it's been fun kind of juggling all the time zones and stuff like that. And then, yeah, and then on the other side, you know, we have like Rob or sound engineer who's doing all the podcast stuff.

He's with us for a very long time. And he actually, I think we met him. He came through one of our classes. We had a meetup, met him in person at, like, like, science in 2017, which was, like, really cool. And then our guy, Mike, who is doing all the show notes and does some editing and stuff. Like, you know, I just love all these folks that, you know, our team that's just behind the scenes that people don't always get to hear or recognize, but they're really helping to just like, yeah, keep things moving.

So just really thankful. And then we have a video editor, Kel, who helps out. Alexa, who's kind of head of sales and kind of, you know, affiliate stuff and helping to drive some of that stuff. Oh, God, I'm probably missing some folks, too. I'm sorry if you're listening and I miss. year. We do have a pretty robust team. Yeah. Which is really great.

It is great. I'm super stoked to talk to you and I'm super stoked on your whole team open. You have a really great group of people that are really helping a lot of people looking for answers. And I think that all of us are very fortunate to be here at this time. In some ways, I think that, you know, we've been past the torch from the giants and are standing here trying to shine a light on stuff, even though sometimes we may be fumbling or whatever. I really feel blessed just to be in the conversation and be around so many cool people

that are trying to find the others, if that makes sense, you know? Totally. But before I, did we touch on everything? Or is there anything else we didn't touch on that? You wanted to put it on? We touched on a lot of stuff. We covered a lot.

I'm saying we're almost here for two hours. So this has been a really fun interview of having a great time. Not bad for our first one. No, no, not at all. You're great at what you do. You keep the conversation. takes one and no one.

Yeah, really awesome, awesome conversation. So thank you for having me. But if anybody wants to check out Vital, we do have applications open until December 20th. And then you can check out more at Vital Psychedelic Training.com. Again, our cohort kicks off on January 23rd. And it will go for 12 months. And then I think late December, early January next year,

or the following year. And, yeah, if you just want to check us out on our podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, Psychicelicidacetra.com, yeah, but it's been a blast. Yeah. And I think on your website, don't you have a downloadable curriculum if people were interested and they wanted to see what it was? We do, yeah. So if you go to Vital Psychiatric Training.com, you can type in your email, get the downloadable

brochure. You can check out the curriculum and all the details and information there. And there's some videos on the site. I think there's a video of me kind of introducing it. There's another video exploring like our experiential retreats. I think there's a video there like of us in Costa Rica. And we have this upcoming Costa Rica retreat coming up in January, January 6th of the 13th. So if you're interested in breathwork and you kind of want to know what that's all about

and do it and get away from the cold, we do have that coming up in January 6th in Costa Rica at a place called Blueosa. a beautiful, beautiful place. Yeah, it sounds awesome. And we'll hang on briefly afterwards. I'm going to hang up with our friends on the audience, but I'll talk to you briefly afterwards. Ladies and gentlemen, go down to the show notes. If you find yourself curious,

go take a look at psychedelics today. Check out the vital program. Check out the people that are working there. Don't take my word for it. Listen to Kyle. But more than that, go check out the people that have been through it and check out some of the people that are working there and do your own work.

And look, I think it was a, a brilliant conversation. And I think that people who are looking for answers, this may be an area where you want to explore it out. So that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you have a beautiful day. Aloha.