TrueLife - Late Night, Open Lines - What is Masculinity

Episode Date: November 20, 2022

In this episode we began the conversation on beauty, which leads to sexiness, sexiness leads to pornography, pornography leads to masculinity, masculinity leads to a series of …”is this gay?” Along the way I had an d friend call in that was really interesting

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen,

welcome back to the late night negotiations and the open lines on the True Life podcast. We're here with Paula Powell and Jason. What's up, gentlemen? it going? Good evening. Nice. Oh, good morning. It's morning here. I'm wearing the deep night. Nice, man. That's when all the good things start happening. Exactly. Man. So what, you know, I want to throw this little quote out at you guys and see what you guys think about it. It might take me a second here to find

but as I'm looking for it, I want you guys to think about, okay, I'm still looking. So Jason, what's going on in your house right now, Jason? Right now, the vibe is set. I've got some French music in the background that's just serenading me, and I'm in a comfy robe,

just ready to talk about all things that are going on in the universe. Nice. Okay. That's my situation. Where are you at, Paul? Make me your picture. So I'm sitting in my garage with the garage door open because it's raining. Ooh.

And then my, you know, everybody in the house is sleeping. So I figured I'd come out here. Nice. I am sitting in my library looking for an amazing. quote to get this thing started with right here. And I've been reading a lot about this book. It's called Society of the Spectacle. And it just talks about the world in which we live is like this giant spectacle, right?

And like everything you see is pulling your attention towards you. And it's almost pornographic in a way, like whether it's the television or whether it's like a blinking sign or whether it's a road sign or whether it's the radio, you know. it's like it's like the it's the pornographic uninterrupted presence of the visible like there's always something trying to grab your attention like you don't even have time to think because there's so much shit trying to grab your attention man yeah right what do you guys think yeah it's like it's a rage against the machine lyric right come and play come and play yeah forget about the movement yeah well and i and i feel like it puts us into this um victim energy, like that we, like, um, it's so hard. Like, there's so much and, and so much intensity. And I think sometimes like that pornographic nature plays on our, our victimhood. And the sense of like, oh, let me just make this easy for you. Right. Like at the end of the day, like, if you really look at on some senses of like the darker sides of porn, which there's all sorts of layers, you can look at it. There's some beautiful things. But the darker edges of it is,

lazy. I don't have to do anything for pleasure. I can just sit here and and not have to, I can just consume. And I'm, you know, I'm not willing to put the resistance that's required to find something that's real, which is, you know, what is out there. But the society and all this energy just puts us into this almost like victimhood, slumber mentality. That's really hard to break out of it. Yeah, I like that. It brings me to this idea. Like, like, I think so many of us are like put in this position where we're supposed to consume everything. But consumption is almost the opposite of contemplation. Because when you're consuming something, like you can't really, you don't really think about it, right? Like if you're shoving food in your face or if you're watching porn or if you're

watching television. And it brings me to this idea of beauty. Like think about something beautiful, whether it's your wife, whether it's your husband, whether it's a lover, whether it's a treat. whatever it is. Think about something really beautiful right now. And are you consuming that image? Are you consuming that thing? Or are you contemplating that thing? And like I think far too long, especially in today's world, we've gotten to this idea of where we're consuming beauty instead of thinking about beauty. What do you guys think? I'm hearing some beautiful French music in the background. I was like, are my tunes and my vibe in a little too loud? It's a little loud. It's a little bit loud. It's awesome. There you go. All right. Nice. I have a little background. What do you guys think? Paul, what is your idea of consumption versus contemplation?

What's my idea about what consumption versus contemplation? When you see something beautiful, do you consume it or do you think about it? I mean, these days I think about it. You know, in my anger days, I would try to consume it, all of it. you know, I mean, good things were meant to be taken in and, you know, coveted and, you know, made your own was kind of my mentality. And so very much, very much, you know, was in that mindset. I mean, you know, but I think that's true for a lot of young people. You know, then as I got older, man, it was like, and the things that,

I now define this beautiful. Like I would think it would be beautiful or have been defined differently. More of the simple things in life. And I don't know, it's kind of cliche, but it's true. You know, I've experienced, you know, big loss in my life. So I, you know, I tend to appreciate, you know, the little things. And then those things, those things are viewed. right you know whether it's my kids or you know what I'm doing at work or you know I work

with honeybees and and you know trees in an orchard and it's you know it's very those are those things are all moving about us in a subtle way and there's a lot of beauty and in things that you know we're once in the background or now in the foreground for me how old were you think before you made that change. Was that something that happened at like a certain age or like what do you think changed for you to start seeing the world that way?

Psychedelics. I think we talked about this before. Right? It was you know, it was a lot of psychedelic experience and then really you know, kind of changed the way I view the world and myself especially.

And I think that's, for me it was like, oh, wow, look at this person. Right? Who was, you know, kind of primitive, animalistic type of person living in one of the lower worlds. You know, hell, hunger. And then, like, really kind of changing that, you know, life trajectory, you know, and my perception of life at that time to really, like, start changing me. And then what's interesting is that, like, what psychedelics taught me,

It actually was like it was a roadmap. Like I developed a roadmap. Being able to, you know, to make those changes still in my life, you know, where people like, hey, it's really hard. Like, the older you get, the harder it is to make changes. And I would say, you know, if you become practice at it, then it's a lot easier. Most people don't practice it. But that's for me.

That's what it was. It was psychedelics coming in my life. and the continuation of the usage of psychedelics, which is, you know, really, really kind of shaped who I am today. Something that I thought was really beautiful in that is, you know, George, like, we can have this weird consumption energy of beauty, and you don't, you can't really contemplate it. So it's this, like, if you're,

you're either consuming it or you're contemplating it and this binary world but i love how you shifted that paul and i thought about you in the you know in the forest with the bees and literally you're consuming the beauty you're consuming the honey that it's creating for you you're consuming the oxygen that the that the trees are giving you so it is beauty can be consumed while it's being contemplated and we can step out of the binary of either this or that and it's actually about both and that's i love that is such a beautiful perspective in what you shared. Yeah, that is nice to think about it. It makes me wonder, like, do you think that you could be in a bad mood when you're

surrounded by something beautiful? Yeah. Can you give me an example of the one time you've been in a bad mood when you're surrounded by something beautiful? Yeah, just like being around Tiffany, my partner. Like, she's freaking beautiful, like, gorgeous. Yeah. And I always tell her she's my muse.

She's my art. She's something that is not meant to be consumed. She is meant to be contemplated. But like that doesn't affect my attitude. Like I've been in really shitty moods around her beauty. And that's where I think it is the eye of the beholder, right? It's really this idea that like it's your inner self that really learns how to sit with beauty, not the not the consumption. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a, it's like a, you know, it's, for me, you know, it was a restraint, like, developing, you know, that, like, hey, like, you can appreciate, things can be appreciated from a distance.

Mm-hmm. Like, I don't have to be, you know, in such close proximity, whether it's, you know, physically or mentally or, you know, to really, like, you know, to be involved with something or something or. somebody, you know, that, that distance sometimes is a good thing. It is. It makes me think, like, sometimes I'll see, like, a beautiful young girl. And, like, that girl is fucking beautiful. But she's, like, 22. She probably has so much growing up to do.

Probably a fucking headache to be around. You know what I mean? Like, she's beautiful. But it's probably a lot of fucking work to, and then you start talking to some people sometimes. You're like, oh, man, it's so much better when I could just seem as beautiful. Well, I think it's an interesting play of like also, again, we were talking about society and this idea of too much, right, and how it's got us. It puts us in this mode of consumption where we don't have edges and we don't know boundaries. We don't know restraint. We don't know this stuff. And I think part of this medicine, a, you know, either whether it's in psychedelics or even breath work or all these different areas is helping

us get re in touch with the edges, re in touch with that is beautiful and I don't have to fuck it. Yeah. That's the shifts. That's the energy. And that's actually taking back my power. I'm like, I'm not plugged in to where everything says that it's just pure consumption. Oh, beauty, fuck, beauty this, whatever, right? Like, no, I don't have to consume it.

I can contemplate it. I can have restraint. And that restraint is almost been demasculated, especially in the, I think for a lot of men. It's like, oh, if you're restrained, there's something wrong with you, right? Or the old ball and chain of a relationship. It's actually, no, that's a healthy edge. That's a healthy thing to have.

And again, you choose what your restraint is. That's your power. But yeah, I don't know. How does that land? No, that's good. And, you know, what's interesting, though, you bring up the topic of masculinity, and, you know, then it just makes me kind of think about,

like, we probably all have our idea of what masculinity is. And so, you know, what is, you know, and I agree with you 100%, Jason, I think that is part of, you know, of the masculine is exercising restraint. right and um you know and having self-control and i think when you surrender that self-control you know then yeah you're you're surrendering whether it's you know with your words you know if you're your temper or you know your lusts in life you know that and then um you know you're you're you're given that you're given a part of that away yeah can you surrender to your own power

Is that mean? Question for the masculine. Is that mean like not giving way to your emotions, like being more stoic? Like I kind of feel as like a father and as a husband, like on the last line of defense when it comes to that. Like because I think that my wife's going to be emotional. My child is definitely going to be emotional. But as the man of the family, like your job is to have restraint, whether it's not punching somebody or, you know, backing down when things get too crazy or understanding the environment you're in.

On one little side note, a trick that I have found in life is that if you're in a relationship and you find yourself, like, let's say that you're out with your wife or your girlfriend, I have learned that only one person can be upset. And what I mean by that is, like, let's say you go to dinner and like your wife goes, oh my God, this waiter right here. Can you believe what he did? And you're like, what did he do? Oh, well, he like came over and he like, he touched my arm.

And then you as the man go, you know what? I'm going to punch that guy in the face. You're like, hey, just calm down. Just calm down. Like she'll go from being the emotional one to the calmer down one. And so no matter what you are in a relationship, if you just overstep, then the other person changes their role. I read a book called Games People Play. And it's really interesting how people fit into a role.

And when you're in a relationship or when you're in a meeting or whenever you're around a group of people, you're playing a position. And only one person to play the position of the leader at a position. time. So if you step up and you start playing the leader, everyone will be subordinate to you. You might get challenged, but in an event where things are where things are kind of hot, if you're the first person to act and you can take the lead, then you'll be looked at as the leader. The same way, if you step back and start asking like, you know, you kind of put yourself down, then you're going to play the role of the person who is not the leader. But it's interesting to think about it as games. It's interesting to think if, if who you are is just a game and

all you have to do is play a character. So what I feel like I hear in that is, you know, again, so if we played this game of masculinity out a little bit and you were talking about like being the last line of defense and holding restraint of yourself, I think the way I look at that is actually I take the leadership and setting the boundaries of what's appropriate. And that might mean the emotions that I bring up, there's dead. definitely appropriate emotions. So if there are, if there's grief and those around me are crying, I'm going to enter into that emotion with them because that's appropriate. Whatever happened is

sad and desires and is worthy of grief. And I, they need to see me grieving as well. Because it depends on what it is though, right? Like, well, I mean, if you're, if they're crying because someone got hit, you're probably not going to start crying with them. Well, because maybe that's, that's not appropriate. Okay. I see what you're saying. So right. If it's appropriate for the situation. Yeah, like, so let's say my kids have a lizard, right? And this lizard dies. And they're really sad about the lizard. I'm not going to shed a tear over that fucking lizard, right?

I'm not going to, I will be the defense, life and death children, grab a bag, throw it away, like move on, right? Like, I'm not stepping into that. But there's a death in the family. Hell yeah, like, they're going to see me come undone. Because that's appropriate. it's appropriate that my emotions would be responding to the situation that way. And that's what it means to lead, is to lead into the appropriate energies and that masculine energy. So it's about being able to understand what is appropriate.

And if we start with what's appropriate for ourselves, meaning we're in tune with our own emotions. And so is it appropriate for me to fly off the handle because the waiter touched my wife's arm? Fuck, no, that's not appropriate. Fuck that guy. Move on. Like, that's not appropriate. What do you mean you'd come undone? Like, is that the right thing to do is to come undone?

And, like, what do you, like, can you define that? Like, someone in your family dies. Like, what does that mean? Like, what are you going to do in front of your kids? Are you going to start crying? Or, like, you, I mean, what does that mean? If my part, if Tiffany died and my children, like, my children would see me at the depths of grief. Tears, I don't know what fucking happens in that depth.

but like it ain't pretty and they need to see it because it becomes the roadmap to life that death is part of everything and if you can't see me at my worst as a man you can't see me when i'm like really in the depths of pain then you know what am i showing you because you're going to have those feelings and experiences in life so let me give you a roadmap that's what I want for my children. Like, that's why I would have no problem letting them see me come under. Because they're going to see me rebuild as well, right?

They're going to see what comes after that. But, yeah, I would lose my shit in front of my children. Well, grief is the first step in healing, right? Right. And so, I don't know, man.

Maybe denial. I mean, maybe denial is the first age in healing. Well, I mean, it's part of the, it's part of the cycle, right? For sure.

But I was thinking about, I recently watched the never-ending story. And I'd never seen it before. And you want to talk about this idea of grief and a father losing his wife and basically telling his son, like, chin up, dude, suck up, no emotions. Like, get your shit together. Your mother is gone. Move on. The shit, that's harsh.

Like, watch the intro to that movie. It's harsh. I don't know about that kind of grief. I think we got a kind of really sick picture of masculinity. We were told that's what you do. Chin up. And what's that story about? The boy learning about death.

The great darkness, right? He has to become friends with death. It's such a fucking movie's profound. Yeah. It's one for the ages, for sure. sure. Yeah. From like the 80s. Yeah. I remember the rock eater. Like they big, like big,

like big strong hands, don't they? Yeah, that was a crazy one. What do you think about this idea? Like, you know what? Like, when I look at the world today, like, I see the return of masculinity. Like, when you see like Andrew Tate coming on to the scene and you see like, um, it seems like there's this return of the masculine coming back in full effect. And it's slow at first, but I think what you're seeing is this return of the man to the head of the family. Like in my opinion, I think in the next 10 to 15 years, you're going to see a turn away from like women's lib from I think you're going to see. I think you're going to see a lot of like homosexuals go back in the closet.

I think you're going to see a lot of a lot of more very difficult times happen. And I'm saying that based on what I see on the fringes of society right now. Like if you look at how many views like people like Andrew Tate, and there's just like it just seems like more masculinity is coming back. And when there's weak leadership, like it opens the door for that. What do you guys think? Like there's for the last 20 years, there's been like a lot of women that have returned to the workforce.

And it was like this idea of equality. But I think equality is bullshit. I don't think any of us. are born equal. And when we try to lie to ourselves and say everybody's equal, like we just open the doors to a giant shit show

and that's a big part of what's happening right now. What did you take on that? I mean, again, it's like, how do you define masculinity? You know, I mean, is Andrew Tate,

your idea of a masculine person? I think he has, I think he has more masculine traits than feminine traits. But maybe we should try to identify what masculinity is because my argument shouldn't be based on him but you guys want to try to do that like

just some definitions out there like it's like to me like there's there's a big flaw with Andrew's Andrew Tate's you know his own you know vision of himself and masculinity and that he's very insecure so try this one on

okay your masculinity is defined by your relationship with your cock and okay listening. And and so like really if you want to know what it means to be a man and where you're like what your masculinity is, you have to pay attention to your life force. You have to pay attention to the thing that is sometimes leading you. That's an impulse, an intuition and trusting it and trusting your cock and trusting

that it's going to show up for you in ways that are going to truly be masculine. And so when I look at the there is going to be a rise of masculinity and I think a lot of it is a lot of dudes are disconnected from their cocks. I've been watching some TV and there's this commercial that keeps popping up this brand called Hems. And this is a serious hot take. I'm probably going to offend some people with this. But anyways, so like they're normalizing fucking Viagra for 30-year-olds and young men having erectile dysfunction. And that tells me there's a fucking generation of dudes that do not have a relationship to their cock outside of a pill. And that's not, you're not living, you're not living in your masculine.

And so there's, so there's going to be this like revolt from that. And it's going to get grotesque. And you're going to get these weird caricatures like an Andrew Tate and these weird little things. But I trust that there will be this wisdom, the wisdom of the masculine will come back. and we will begin to lead with the feminine and we will begin the dance of this beautiful partnership that is both masculine and feminine and that's where the real men are going to be,

not the caricatures and for sure not the dudes that are taking tiny blue pills to fuck. Yeah, it almost seems like... That's my hot take, but... It's good. I kind of see it as a return to the family, right? Every Buddhist in the world just turned their back to you. every Buddhist yeah why that's not where people that you know I mean especially for men it's like your cock that's not where you derive strength from oh right I'll be right back you guys carry on

so I'm curious Paul what would be the where if it's not our talk where would we drive our strength from our minds or like how would we look at that differently our vibrations and connections to the universe and that's not going to happen through the root chakra of like our balls the root chakra of our balls, he said. I mean, I guess it depends, like I said, you know, like you got to define masculine. Yeah. Like everybody has their own idea of what masculine is. You know, I'm sure you might have had a number of ideas of what masculine is throughout your life.

Totally. Right? Like, what was your idea of masculine when you were 18 years old? Right. So. What do you think it was? oh it was it was like well it was really confused i honestly i didn't really have a clear picture of what it meant to be a man i was i didn't i didn't really know and and and i don't you're not

alone as an 18 year old young man like you're in the majority yeah right but i did you look up to anybody who you thought wow you know like the john way mean or the you know the albundi types. So the people that I always was attracted to were the thinkers. So I will, the masculine that I felt a draw to in my youth were like the people that were, um, yeah, they, they thought. It wasn't ever like a lot of masculine energy. It was just like they were great thinkers. Um, so they didn't, they didn't emit a lot of that masculine energy. But, but. But, like a John Wayne or, you know, some sort of caricature of the man. It was more like, I like the, yeah, certain men that I felt to draw to were thinkers. And so were these men part of your family? No, actually, none of them were. These are all mentors and friends that I found either through like my relationship with the church or just through friendship.

How would you be, I'm sorry. Oh yeah No worries George Go ahead I was just gonna say It's odd to me when you said They weren't in your family What about your dad?

How was your relationship with your dad? You know it's interesting Like we didn't have a lot of I would say like a lot of Masculine exchanges He didn't he didn't really teach me He taught me what he could About what it meant to be a man

But I think as I look back And what I now know There was a lot that didn't get transmuted or trans trans like put out there like hey this is how we deal this situation this is how you handle this situation and again the reason i kind of keep bringing it back to like cock energy is again it's i believe like integrating ourselves right like we have our minds and our masculine there's deep strength in our minds and there's deep strength in our bodies but i don't know i just find that like that relationship to the thing that um we sometimes don't have control over

it does it has its own mind at times uh this thing that both emits strength and hardness and softness and like relaxing like it's a both there's a ying and a yang to it it's never just one always it's important there's a lot of stuff we can learn from that so why would i not think about my relationship with it why would i shame it or why would i be like you that's like i can't learn something about the masculinity through my cock well because now you're you're dwelling in one of the three lowest worlds, which is the world of animality. Well, and that's an edge, right?

Don't we need, like, to have, like, to find pleasure, don't we also need to understand the underworld and the dark? There's, there's, there's understanding in it, understanding it, and then there's participating in it, which are two totally different things. Totally, I agree.

And, dude, I've had bad cock energy. I'd participate, like, you know, like, there's, and that's why I think it's, important that you will never have perfection, right? We'll never, like, in our path to enlightenment, it's never about this idea of

perfection. It's about integrating the shadow. It's about understanding, like, it can be a really dangerous place for me to co-play. Yeah. I'm not conscious, right? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, as we evolve

as a species, right, that we are moving away from those lower worlds. as much as we can. Of course, we experience, you know, all 10 of the worlds at every moment, at every time a day. But it's about being able to find, you know, the higher worlds while you're trying to escape the lower worlds or while you're currently existing in the lower worlds.

And the world of animality is not a good place to be. And understanding it is one thing, participating it is another. And I think, you know, I think that So when we talk about masculinity, right? To me, I see, you know, I think we just probably see it in a little bit different way, which is fine. Well, it's really interesting because it's this idea, like I'm like as I, because when I think about the energy of, you know, kind of again, we think about like the root and the lower levels. And again, if we think about our sexuality or our bodies in that way, you know, yeah, like,

are your balls are are a great a great teacher but they're not where maybe you live you know like you shouldn't just live in your balls um that's that's a dangerous place and that there's a lot of darkness is when you're living down there um but you have to understand it to then be able to integrate it into your heart and your mind and your soul and your in your strength and when you can integrate it that's a beautiful man regardless of their sexual sexuality or whatever, that is a beautifully masculine man. And that's what I mean by like understanding or, yeah, understanding your cocks and ball and like how all of it's in play.

Right. I don't know. George, how does that land? So it brings up an interesting point for me. As you guys were talking and we talk about, you know, moving through the different worlds and moving through the different times. Like I begin thinking about my journey as a man and like the older you get,

like the lower your testosterone drops. Right. And, you know, I think especially in the United States, like we're super sexified. Like, there's just porn everywhere, like on every magazine on soup cans. Like it's everywhere in front of you. You know, I wonder that as we get older, like maybe, you know, there's a reason. There's a reason our body is the way it is. And when you get older, your testosterone drops and you think differently. Like you're not, you know, imagine five guys sitting at a table and the smoking hot chick walk. through. You know, the guys that are 50 are going to be like, wow, that girl's beautiful. And the guy that's 20 is like, I'm going to go get her phone number. You know, like that testosterone that runs through your body, whether you call it cock energy or whether you call it testosterone or whether you call it being younger or you call the older man, an old man, like there's something happening throughout your life that changes, you know, and I, you know, yeah, go ahead. There's a myth there, Dude, I want to challenge that a little bit.

Please. That as men, I think we've been sold this myth that our testosterone drops. Okay. And that we can't perform. We can't stay hard. We are, and, and I think, again, this is part of this myth of taking away the masculine energy. Because you want to know it's really powerful are fucking old men that are masculine, who have wisdom that have testosterone. But they've integrated it.

I was going to say that. I was just going to say that. Like the part is wisdom play and all of that. Yeah. And so there's the, we have to learn to wisdom in our testosterone, not to shame it or push it down or to say that it's not welcome in my body anymore. To say,

no, I'm wise. So God, that 20 year old still gets me hard, but I'm not going to fuck her because that's not wise. It's a good point. It's a good point. Do you think that there's a,

like, I can feel a difference. Like, if I have a lot of sex versus not having sex for like months at a time. Like I can feel a difference in my body. Yeah. You know, and like I feel like I can concentrate. It's interesting because sometimes like right after sex I feel like, oh, yeah.

But sometimes like if I if I have sex maybe, I don't know, twice a week, then like I kind of lose my drive a little bit. Like, I feel like there is more drive if you sustain from sex. And maybe that gives credence to people like performers, like boxers or you always hear stories about people that don't have sex before a big game. Like, I think there's something to be said about the energy that goes into sex and goes into the performance of your life. And they can be straddled. They, you know, I think it's wise to understand their relationship between sex and performance

in your life and sex and your life. and sex and your family. You know, it's important to have a valuable, ongoing sexual relationship in your marriage. But if you don't go through spells where you don't have sex in your marriage, then you're fucking lying to me

because you get in trouble all the time. You know what I mean? But, like, I think that there's, I think that there should be more about that. I think we should understand that, you know, and I don't know, I think there's something there. But I do think as you do get older,

I think that there, is a decrease in testosterone. And you know what? Nowadays, you see people getting like, I see guys that that are in their 60s that look jack because they're getting TRT. Like, I want to get TRT. Like, I think that it helps your body stay young and it helps you be more active. But I don't, I don't know. Is there a reason why you're just getting old and you don't need testosterone? Or is it something that if you keep it in your body, you're going to be better and healthier and it's good for you longer. I kind of think the letter. So my partner is, you know, a naturopat. doctor. And so we talk a lot about like testosterone and testosterone production and what's normal

and what, you know, kind of, again, normal Western medicine versus maybe some more deeper understandings. And again, I am only learning this stuff through her. So I'm by no means an expert. But she continues to paint a picture of the fact that like as men, we should be sustaining a like moderate to high level of testosterone. And that's very like very normal. But again, it's interesting when you look at society

what damages our testosterone and what limits our ability to produce it and so much of it is our diet and exercise. And you look at the last like hundred years and what has

the powers that be done that they've fucked with our diet and our exercise. And right now, everybody's freaking out about overpopulation because we hit this $8 billion mark. But like we have a serious underpopulation. Like we're not sustaining population. And there's, there's going to be a massive drop off.

And testosterone levels and men are at a fucking low right now. Okay, why? Why do you think that is? Because men, I think it's been our diets and exercise. And I think men like. And jacking off too much probably. I don't, maybe.

But like, I don't know. Like, I don't, I don't want to shame what something does, right? Like, I'm not shaming it. I'm just saying, like, I think today, I bet you men are jacking off 10 times more than they were 20 years ago. Well, again, that's the consumerism. Yeah, absolutely. That's consumerism. So.

And you can say it's diet. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you're consuming that stuff. Yeah. So. That's true, man. We have, sorry, the only other point that's going to make was like, there's so much.

infertility going on right now, and so many couples can't have babies. And there's so many women that are being shamed that they're the reason. And like, honestly, the numbers, like the data, like, we don't, it hasn't been studied enough. But like, you're, we're going to be shocked by how often it's the men. It's our fault. Women aren't having babies. Because our testosterone levels have dropped and we're not producing semen. The fucking, we don't have the swimmers. Like, we once did and like it's the dudes the dudes have to fix their fucking relationship to their cocks to start making babies like that's the shit I'm telling you like it's mess up and it's how do you control society as you take that life force away sounds like men got to change

their relationships to their grocery stores absolutely how about to their life man to everything that's what I'm trying to like that's what I mean like when I say like how you live your life is through your cock like it's about it all like how are you showing up? Can you look at yourself in the mirror and be like, I'm proud of you? Yeah. Good choice. Right? That's what I aspire to. But I would argue a lot of men can't look themselves in the mirror and be like,

I'm proud of you. And I would argue that a lot of like masculine men don't need reassurance. No, you're right. Well, what do you mean by reassurance? Like the looking in the mirror and like, yeah, you're doing a good job, buddy. But what about that? I don't mean like a soul check-in looking. in the mirror. Is that self-assurance or is that just like integrity? It might just be confidence. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like I don't know where the whole pep talk thing comes into play for masculinity, you know. Like some of the most masculine, like, you know, like when I like, you know, I have some friends that, you know, you consider pretty masculine. I don't think they're doing that. They, they're, you know, these are also guys that kind of live life unapologetically. as well.

Right. Yeah. I think that there's a, is there a line between like someone, like it, I don't know if it's too masculine or if you're just being a dick or like, there's got to be a line there though, right? Like, can we try to break down? Like, I'm sure we'll all have different ideas of what masculinity is.

But like if you could define it, what were some of the characteristics that you would, say are masculine. I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know if you can define it, George. I think you see like when you're younger, like, you know, I was asking Jason about like, you know,

like he looked at intellectuals as kind of, you know, you know, it's maybe people that he looked up to and wanted to be like. Okay, well, let's look at that. It's not that he saw intellectuals. It's that he saw intellectuals. competence. He saw confidence. He saw something that he was drawn to. And it may be they were intellectuals, but it's beyond that. It's a feeling of control that he saw there. That is masculinity. A young man seeing an older man in control. So I would put control as a factor in masculinity. I would

see respect. I would see strength. I would see discernment. These are masculine qualities. And these don't have overreaching qualities that are something that, you know, are, it's the opposite of insecurity. Insecurity is not masculine. Security is masculine. So I think we can narrow it down to some words like that. And then we could work from those definitions. What do you think? I, you know, I mean, as an exercise, but I think there's, you know, we, I think we all see, you know, things a little differently.

you brought up Andrew Tate and I would say there's somebody that's trying to be masculine. I'm not saying that he isn't, but this hyper masculinity, you know, a lot of it is a show, right? Sure. So I'm curious about that, Paul, because there's, I feel like there's like these things we may disagree on. What's something that might feel like a contention point around what, what is? is masculine. Say that again? Like, you're saying, like, we all kind of define masculine differently.

So I'm curious, like, what's something that you feel is masculine that maybe, I don't know, Georgia, I might disagree with. I mean, I would have to probably give you my definition of masculinity. All right. Let's hear it. Yeah. I think that's what we want to hear. Well, okay, so I guess it's really not something that I've actually thought about, right?

but it's something that like you know like porn you know when you see it right and and so you know I kind of think like throughout my life you know there I've seen people that you know I thought you know were maybe somebody who I'd like to grow up to be like right you know and different characters and different men that are in my world you know I always tell tell people like my kids like some of like the you know one of the most important men to me in my life was my my best friend stepdad and you know so let me just let me tell you about him right this is a guy who got up and you know he went to work every day he you know provided for his family this man never complained um you know he you know even though he was like a construction worker type that he wasn't like that that's what he was

you know, East Coast Italian Um, he, uh, you know, he always made time for his kids, which actually weren't his blood kids.

I always had a tremendous amount of respect for that. Um, you know, he, his, you know, he, he was unfazed by, you know,

my best friend's mother who was, you know, let's, let's say she was eccentric. Mm. Um, you know, he,

he, he, he never, you know he was a man of few words and when he had something to say you know you you definitely listened um you know i mean i would start there i mean that's when i when i think about and i you know i quote him often um you know he was a real self-aware man um you know um so what's something he taught you that you like carry on that you oh man the grass is never greener That's so he was dying of lung cancer and I was back in San Diego visiting some family and I knew he was sick and so I

And my friend had moved You know to the east coast He met a woman fell in love moved to the east coast and so you know I was back visiting my parents who live in San Diego And and I knew he was sick and I always made it a point to stop by and see him and I went up there one day and he was in his backyard, right? He was 80 years old. And he was wheeling around this oxygen tank and a chainsaw. That's so awesome. And he was chopping down these trees because he knew like his days were numbered.

And when he was gone, that my friend's mom wouldn't do anything about these, you know, obstacles, these hazards in their yard. And, you know, and I'd been witness to this man's life for, you know, at the time. Last time I saw him, I was 39 years old. He died, you know, a month after I saw him. And so, you know, you know, I'd been witnessed too, a big piece of his life. And, you know, when he says to me, he's like, you know, you know, Paul, let me tell you something. He's like, you've witnessed, you know, me and my wife over the years and the things that we've been through. and I'm going to tell you that, you know, I used to think the grass was greener. You know, I used to think that I would find happiness in somebody else, right?

That I could leave this relationship and I could go get involved in another relationship. And that would be great. That would solve problems. And what I realized was is that all of these issues were inside of me. I was the one who was in control of what my relationship was like. with, you know, I won't say his name, but your best friend's mother. And it wasn't until very late in life that I actually realized that I could affect change in my own relationship.

And that was a powerful thing for me, right? Because I was like, wow. You know, and then, so that's a very Buddhist concept, right? And so I was just like, wow, this man's like, So here we go. There's a man who had a rocky marriage, but yet was like, and this is what I was talking to you about, George, right? And like, you know, like suffering or whatever you want to call it, carrying the burden. This is the man who accepted total responsibility for the failures in his marriage. No finger pointing, no blaming. And my friend's mom had her issues too, right? but this was the guy that was like, no, this is on me.

I could have done something about it a long time ago. To me, that's a man, right? So two things I hear in that. One is masculinity is consistent. And it's the long game, right? A consistency over a lifetime, if you will. And there's something really that's powerful in the masculine when it's consistent. and then the other piece of

own your shit like to be a masculine energy is like own your shit not just his shit he was owning the shit of his family right but but by like because he's he realized he caused that right like he owned a shit like the reason this looks this way is because I wasn't shown up or whatever right like

and this guy showed up for sure what's that I think he showed up well but when you're Like, right, he showed, he owned it. He was like, hey, this is, this is not easy, but I'm here. I'm showing up, right? And that's, again, that's the, like, I'm not running away from my problems in the masculine. Like, I own, I own the problems. I own their problems because of my problem.

I would add this. I would say that, like, listening to that and thinking about my life and other people's life, I would say that masculinity is beginning to love the suffering that is thrust upon. you. And what I mean by that is like, as a man, like you are, you are going to get all this, not all of it, but you're going to get a lot of shit that doesn't belong to you. And that's part of being a man. That's part of being masculine is understanding that you have to take on the burden, regardless of how heavy it is, regardless of what comes your way, regardless of how unfair it is. And you know what? You should learn to love it. You should learn to understand that that unwanted burden that's

thrust upon you is something that you can. carry and you're proud to carry with you. You may not love it. It may be heavy. But at the end of the day, when everyone's asleep or when everyone's doing their own thing, you can set that down for a minute and look where you carried it from and be like, fuck, I took that shit the whole time and I'm still standing. I took it the whole time and I'm smiling. I took this fucking baggage and you know what? I'm proud of it. And you know what? There's nothing. No one can take it away from. Give me your, put your, put the weight on me. I'll carry it. And I think that that is something that, the women, the kids around you see, whether it's with Paul, either the guy you explained or I had an uncle that did it.

And I see men that do it. I see men that have maybe kids with, you know, that are disabled or I see men that have problems in their life and they're, they just take it and they're happy and they deal with it. And they don't complain about it. And like, I think that that is the part of masculinity that's been missing for so long. I think too many kids, even though they may have a. father, they don't have a masculine father that's just willing to say, hey, put it all on me. I got it. Let me show you how to carry this.

Yeah. There's something to be said about that. That's being a man for, you know, for your family. Yeah. You know, it's the willingness to, you know, endure pain and suffering and being uncomfortable, you know, at times. I mean, anybody who's raised kids will, you know, knows that, you know, it's challenging, you know, being in a long-term relationship with a woman is challenging and, you know, and taking all of these things because, you know, everybody has their own lives and there's multiple dynamics happening under a roof and a household. And, you know, and it's a man's job is to, you know, is to carry the weight.

And I'm not, you know, I'm not talking, I'm not talking about like financially, although some people would say that that's part of it as well. but, but, like, emotionally and, you know, and then being there to lend guidance and, and wisdom when it comes to them, because sometimes I know some friends that are my age that have kids that are not wise. And so that's a whole other problem. It's interesting because what I think is, we were talking about, like, this, again, suffering and resistance. Right, right.

And I think it's why we're seeing, I don't know if you guys see this in your world, but like a lot of the spiritual stuff, right, the Aubrey Marcuses, Wim Hof, all these people, you know, the whole cold therapy thing is like really catching a lot of men, right? And it's interesting because I feel like it becomes this part of what you're talking about our masculinity where we learn resistance. We learned how to sit in the cold. We learned how to be uncomfortable.

We learn how to suffer. And this is a lesson that like the last generation didn't get. And I think that's why so many millennials and guys like, and their mid-30s are like totally into this stuff right now is because like we weren't given resistance, right? Everybody wins. Everybody gets the trophy. Like that was the, we've, we've grew up in society that fucking, We are byproducts of the internet, right?

Like all this stuff. And to the masculine does need resistance. The masculine needs to learn how to hold resistance and hold that suffering and create that space for their family to, you know, it's almost like the, I think about our nervous system, right? And when we're grounded, when everyone else's emotions are all over the place and they're going through their thing. we become the grounding energy. And it's like, come in. Yes, I'll hold, I hold space for you right now.

Like, I got you. I can hold that for you. You're good. I got you. You know, that's what it means to be a man. That's what it means to be a father and a spouse. You know,

like, I got you. I'll hold that. I can take that on because I'm doing my work, right? I'm secure in my masculinity. I have resistance. I got in the fucking cold plunge today. And I do this thing that was uncommon.

And that's where I think exercise and diet and some of the shit is really important to the masculine process is built in resistance. I don't I don't think built in like like I think all those things are good to train, but I don't think there's enough fighting like like I think it's good to to exercise hard, but I don't think enough men today do things that are masculine. Like, you know, there's. Okay. So what's that? Do things. What is a, what would be a masculine? Okay. A masculine thing would be to sit in the office with your boss and your boss's boss and tell him to fuck off. Yeah. Right. Like to be in a position where you don't have a real good chance to win, but you do it anyway. And got in the consequences, like, you think about the consequences and you're like, I think I can, I think I can win this.

But to put yourself in situations like that. You know, like maybe not to compromise your family, but in the, I'm just saying to be in a position where you have to fight. So you can challenge your body all you want and you can push it up hills and you can do things. But you should be in a situation where you're a little scared about taking a physical beating of some kind and go through with it anyway. What do you think? I mean, I'm hearing like, so to be courageous. I think courage is a big part of it What's the difference between courage and bravery?

Courage and bravery I think courage is something that you can do in front of people and bravery is something you do alone. Courage requires thought. Learned that from a stripper. Well, I don't know. I mean, it's pretty courageous to sleep with a dirty stripper.

I didn't sleep with a dirty stripper, but I was in a strip club with a, you know, there was a stripper in there that was like graduated from like Yale or some shit was talking. And anyways, that's what she said. And I was like, oh, wow, right. Learn something from a stripper today. Cool. You're right. Here's a 20.

I was thinking like courage to me feels like something that you do for others and bravery is something you do for yourself. Like courage, right? You think about courage as like I was like in a courageous moment you step, you sacrifice the self and you did something courageous. And you put yourself on the line. and that requires us an element of bravery, but I think sometimes you can be brave for yourself, right? Like, I'm brave and I'm doing this for me. So, and you need both.

But, yeah, I feel like bravery is for you and courage is for others. What is standing up for yourself? Is that courage or is that brave? Depends on the moment. Yeah, it could be both. Yeah, it depends. I think bravery is more reactionary. Yeah.

People that just like run into a burning building without any thought those people were brave. The guy who stands outside and knows what's going to happen to him for running in that building and decides to do it anyways, that's courageous. Yeah. That's a great way of saying it. That is a good way to say it. But I know what you mean, George, right? Like, yeah, I mean, definitely being a man, you know, or, you know, being masculine does involve courage, right? I mean, those are, that's one of the, to me, that's one of the highest qualities, right?

It's being able, I think you alluded to this the other day when you were giving us your, you know, your presentation about dad balls, right? Jason, you were saying that. Like, it's like showing up for your kids and making decisions that are tough, right? And sometimes those decisions are courageous, however many, you know, however small they may be. Yeah. You know, but if there's a negative consequence, you know, or a possible negative consequence, the decisions that you're making for your family, you know, and these are things that are, you know, contemplated amongst men, right? Yeah.

And, you know, and then you make decisions. And, you know, there's definitely a level of courage in all of the decisions that we make. I think that, you know, I think there's something to be said about masculinity that you, you emanate. Like, people that are masculine have a presence about him. Like, I can see some people and be like, okay, that guy's a little bit dangerous. I can fucking tell by talking to him, right? I can look at him. You know, he may not be, like, I think as a man, I know I can.

I can look at someone, and I'm sure you guys can too, is like, dude, okay, this person has something about him. This person fucking knows something. This person is weak. You may not be absolutely right every time with your judgment, but you can get a feel. And I mean, like, there's a literal feeling you get sometimes by being in the presence of someone else. Like, I don't know if it's their aura or I don't know if it's their attitude,

but it's more, it's something you can feel. Do you guys think? Well, dude, I'll, sorry. I don't mean to keep bringing this back to our cocks. But they talk about like small dick energy, right? Like, again, are you, comfortable, like, are you comfortable with your masculinity? Do you own it? Do you emit it? And it has nothing to do with fucking the size or whatever. It's about how you own your energy. And that,

I think, is what is the masculine. And insecurities and guys that try to position or like, you know, like, they try to puff themselves up. Like, that's the, that to me is like ugly masculinity because it's fucking insecure. It's not really masculine. Right? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, you're right about that, Jason. So when I look at masculine and like, like, again, sometimes it's like, am I judging myself against their style of masculine?

Right? Like, like, this dude, like, you know, the guy that's got, he's fucking cut and like has, you know, all the babes and whatever. And I'm like, is that my standard of masculine? Because really what's masculine about that is his energy. There's nothing to do with what he looks like or whatever. It's his energy. And that energy pulls this stuff. And it's, again, learning how to own your energy is where you'll find your masculinity.

And then it will begin to call things around you. And that can look in, you know, that can look a lot of different ways. Like, and I think to Paul's point, that's why it's hard to define is because it's not always going to show up in a heterosexual context, right? Some of the most masculine men I know are gay. And so what is that, right? Like, how do you think about masculinity in that way? And how do you think about masculinity in different cultures?

Like, we have to be willing. But again, it's you own your energy. That's what, to me, is the most important foundation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Can you talk about some of the masculine gay guys, you know? Yeah.

What do you want to know? It just seems like, I see what you're saying, but like, that's an interesting concept, right? Like, most people, when you think of someone gay, do you think it's like, I'm not saying that there aren't masculine gay people. Right. When you think of someone gay, do you automatically think of someone masculine? Well, I mean, if you want to play. It's a fair question, right? Yeah.

So, you know what I think is something I've been learning from my gay friends and that's, that's, that's, you know, that's, you know, that's. really important. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was going to fucking, I was going to tell you what I thought you were learning, but go ahead. Oh. Is, again, it's about owning, like, how do you own your own masculinity? Right. Like, and it, you know, like,

is it, is it gay to find yourself sexy? Right? Is it gay to think your cock looks great? No. That's self-love. You should be able to step into that energy. And I think that's what a lot of men, especially heterosexual men, do not know how to handle. Because they think, oh, if I think this, then am I gay? Like, no, it's your fucking body. Why would you be ashamed of it?

You think guys that are afraid of their body? Like, I don't know if you, I don't see how that would be construed as gay. Well, I think a lot of men struggle with that. You think a lot of men look at their body and think it's gay to look at their body? No, if they love, if you talk to a guy like, hey, what do you love about your cop? He would think that was gay? Yeah. All right. Is that a fair assumption?

I don't know. I've never, I don't know, to be honest with you. Like I fucking look at mine all the time, man. Right. You know, I got a good relationship with my body. I don't know. But I would say in heterosexual context for a lot of men, they don't know how to have that conversation. And when I talked, you know, when I engaged my friends that are gay and I ask about their masculinity, you know, it's interesting. to see how they they can integrate their bodies and they can understand pleasure. And there's a lot to learn about masculinity.

There is. I agree. There's a lot to learn from them about an understanding of both, you know, sexually giving and receiving. And there's just, there's a lot of masculine energy there. And I think to think that it's feminine is actually a disservice to the relationship. Is two men and the masculine love that can be shared? There's something beautiful in that. And there's something that I think all men can learn the capacity to hold friendship and deep love for another man.

It's a beautiful thing. You kind of say that as if they're choosing to be that way. They're choosing to their love experience. I think they're gay. I mean, that is their experience. That's not what, like, I can learn from their experience. Not that I'm saying they're choosing that. that is how they experience love.

That is how they experience masculinity. So I can learn something from that. Not that it's their choice to do that. It's just their life. That's their life. That's who they are. Okay, I'm going to throw this out here, and I'm just going to see what you guys think.

I think this will make for an interesting conversation. How many boys, like if we, how many young boys get molested? And out of those young boys that get molested, how many of those young boys get molested by men? What do you guys think? Oh, the majority.

Okay, the majority. How many boys, are those mostly gay men that molest little boys, or are they straight men that molest little boys? Wait, wait, wait. I'm like, where are we going with this? I'm just throwing it out there. Little boys, are you straight? No. You're repressed as fuck.

That's what I think that situation. is. So if you're a man and you're molesting little boys, I'm guessing you're not straight. No, you're not. So that would be 100% of them then, right? Well, according to that logic. They could be

bisexual. Okay. Yeah, there's fluidity. Okay. Do you think them were like, like, I don't know, I'm just asking this question. If there were less gay men, would there be less little boys being molested? No. No. No.

There wouldn't. We've already decided that a large number of boys that get molested are by gay men. So if we follow that logic, if there were less gay men, would there be less boys that were getting molested? We have to look at the context in which that energy is happening. And it's largely the fucking Catholic Church. So you think it's God's fault, Jason. Is that what you're doing? No, I think it's a bunch of repressed sexually reprimed.

sexually repressed men who were told to cut their cocks off in service to God and they weren't given the tools of actually how to do that because it can be a powerful thing. The idea of eunuchs and men that literally did choose celibacy, whew,

magicians, there's power there. So the church had something about this idea of celibacy, but it became fucking religion and all these men became repressed and then they fucking, it comes out in really dark, evil ways. To try to associate homosexuality to molestation is, I think, a bit grotesque.

I'm saying you're grotesque. I hear you. But, like, that's, it's actually, we have to look at what created the environment that those things were taking place. And not the, not one sexuality. And it's fucking the darkness of religion is where that shit happens. Wow. That's a hot take. Yeah.

What are you going to say, Paul? You made a hard left there when I thought you were going to. somewhere else. That was, wow. That was good, though. I mean, I get, you know, I would say it's a pattern. Like, I think it's people that get molested are in a pattern. You know, I don't necessarily know that, you know, and I think there is a lot of evidence to show this thing called imprinting. The first sexual, like, I think as you go through puberty, the sexual experience that is put on you at that time imprint something on you, the same way any experience. does. And I think there's a lot of evidence that shows that if a young man is like between like nine and 14 and an older man does something to him, like that younger man is going to remember that experience forever. And he's going to think maybe he's gay. He's going to think like, oh my God,

this happened to me. Like, you can never get that out of your head. Like that always happened to you. No, you're imprinted with abuse, man. You're, you're imprinted not like that L. Am I gay. You're, you're imprinted with how do you know how do you know well what happened to you what happened to you what did you feel like I think so many people that have had and again I i I'm sitting in the position I've been in I've heard these stories of of abuse and always the the pattern of abuse is one of again the abuse the person abusing has always been abused like that's 99% of the time So, like, if there's some, and again, I think a lot of molestation, if it's not happening in religion, it's happening within the family. And when it's happening within the family, it's because of sexual abuse in the family.

And again, this is about fucking men not being men. And this is the lack of masculine energy is allowing fucking sexual abuse to take place on your house. Like, fuck that shit. So, you know, like, if that's going on and it's happening, then what gets imprinted on you, is I'm going to have to abuse someone else. And the pattern of abuse continues. And it's nothing to do with one sexuality. And unfortunately, those traumas,

they have to, like, they could get very confused about their sexuality because of it happening in trauma. But it does not, there's healing there, and it does not make them gay or straight or whatever. They have to deal with the abuse and the trauma. And out of that,

find them their true selves. and however that expresses itself. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sold to. I think that, like, I think that once a child is abused like that,

like they're fucked up almost forever until they go through like a lot of therapy. And I think in that, in that trauma, whether it's whether they never get the therapy or they can make a lot of bad decisions in that time. And it's probably because they felt abused and they felt that way. And I think one of those decisions could be like,

well, this felt good. I'm just going to keep doing this. You know what I mean? Oh, but that there's a It has nothing to do whether it's gay or straight or whatever. It's sexual trauma. And it's going to create, it's going to create a very dark pattern.

So whether that's expressing itself as gay or straight, like it's going to happen. Like, if you've been sexually traumatized and you don't deal with that shit, you will only continue in that sexual trauma. So can someone not be gay, but just has sex with men all the time? Well, I don't know. Why?

I'm just saying, like, if a kid got, like, let's say, and I probably shouldn't laugh, but, like, let's say that some kid is, is pimped out or something like that. And then they find joy in having sex with the same sex. Like, is that person gay or are they just being abused? Oh, they're like lending themselves to abuse. They're lending them. So it's more of a trauma-based thing. But in there, like, I don't know, it's...

Am I gay because my prostrate was, I liked it taking it up to ass? Does that make me gay? I think... Yes. Right? No. And that's what I'm saying. That's what I guess what I would challenge.

George, is maybe you need to go play with your prostrate. Okay. I'll take it. Go ahead. Yeah, the masculine energy, right? Like, so what? Because I like a certain sexual experience, does that make me gay? Yes, I think so. That to me is we're missing the point that our sexuality is expressed through sex.

Like, my identity, how I might identify is whether gay or straight is honestly nothing to do with sex. That's right. and so whether I like taking it in the ass or not has nothing to do with whether I'm gay or straight I can't agree with that I can't Paul what do you what do you mean that's right like what do you mean say that part of Gingjay like your sexuality has nothing to do with your with sex no you're your identity how you identify gay or straight has very little to I mean it expresses itself sexually for sure but just because I as a heterosexual man enjoy prostate pleasure

does not make me gay. Sorry. Sorry, George. I can tell through the laugh, you're like, ooh, that feels uncomfortable. But like... It does, dude. It totally does. And honestly, that's some of the masculinity

that I feel like I've learned from my gay friends. Like, dude, prostrate? Like, you want to talk about an orgasm, dude? You never had a prostrate massage, George? No, never once, dude. Oh, dude, George, I'm going to get you a toy, my friend. You need to go get some ass plates. Dude, no way, bro.

That's so gay, dude. Dude, you want to see God? You want to see God? No, not that way. No, not that way. Yeah, you do. That's the side of God you want to experience, my friend. Tell your wife, you're like, babe, I got this toy, go to town.

That is so gay, dude. I would never do that. That's what I think a lot of men are challenged by. is there again this is like when I like how you handle that shit I think it was I think it's the way I was brought up like my I could honestly tell you that my dad and every men in my family would say that's fucking gay yeah that's where I think a lot of masculinity has been fucked yeah I think more men need to find their prostrates that's a really fun discussion dude thank you Paul what do you think Paul are you gonna do you

I agree. I agree. All those. You know. You do. You, you, have you had a prostate, like, poke? A peepee? Is that a yeah?

That's a knowing laugh right there, my friends. You know, George, you should, um. Oh, should I do? So you live in, you live near Honolulu, Wikiki, right? So there's a ton of places in there that, you know, I never do. I'm prostrate and stuff. Nate, never. Do yourself.

No, dude, I will not do that. Well, can you look yourself in the mirror as a man and be like, I'm proud of you? I love all of you. I'm proud of me for never doing that. So there's a part, right? There's that edge of ourselves. Like, how do you learn how to love your whole self? Not by sticking a finger up your butt.

Until you do, and you're like, God damn, that feels good. Now you're peer pressure in me. You're not a man until you do this, George. Man, I'm outnumbered here too. Yeah, would you have guessed that? Paul and I would be... I would have never guessed that. I would have never guessed that.

It's interesting, though. So, you know, to the bigger conversation, right? Interesting, George. What's that? I said it's more than interesting. What? Okay, elaborate on that. that what do we run into like a PG podcast there what's what's going on i don't know dude

we don't know on the corner but look but still i mean that's just it right there so like when i when we talk about like masculinity right i mean i i believe that to be part of masculinity man it's just like you know like are you comfortable with doing certain things maybe sexually you know And I'm not talking about like, okay, yeah, George, I want you to go blow the guy your neighbor. Yeah. It's not about that. Right. Right.

These things, you know, are enjoyed with, you know, your wife or your girlfriend, your partner, whatever you want to call her, you know? And so, you know, it's like, it's kind of weird that it's like, whoa, that's gay. You know what I mean? That's, I don't know. I don't think that has anything to do. I don't, like, I do think that. Like, maybe that makes me weird. or maybe it makes me uncomfortable or

but I don't think it makes me less masculine like I like maybe it's society that taught me that but like I think do you think maybe yeah maybe it's a society thing man do you think like you're hanging on to something that you perceive to be masculine that may not really be um maybe like I've this is probably where I'm wrong but I was under the impression that all men thought that was gay, but apparently I'm wrong. Obviously, I'm wrong. If I'm

sitting here with two people that I admire, and they're like, no, no, that's not gay. But, like, I still think that. I mean, I don't know, I've always thought that, but how does that I don't know. It's, to me, it's, like my wife, I think that was gay. Like, if I told my wife that,

she'd be like, that's gay. Really? Yeah. Her sticking her finger up your butt is gay? No, me. going and getting a prostate massage or me sticking my own finger up my butt would be gay and my wife would definitely like I don't think my wife would want to stick her finger up my butt but maybe I'm a prude maybe I'm a prude uh you know like have you ever have you done it Paul have you stuck your finger have you done it I I've okay I've not done it to myself why not because it's gay because you don't have to have to

Yeah. But why not? Like, you're not afraid to, right? No, I'm not afraid to. Well, then do it. Then do it. You're not playing the peer pressure game now. I know.

It's like this peer pressure thing. And if George wants to start watching, we've got some concerns. There's some repression we might want to talk about, George. Not one of those, it's not one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, like I have been, like I got to be doing this all the time, George, you know? it's like, you know, it's an experience. What do you think Mike Nicholson would say? What do you think Mike Nicholson would say?

Fuck, I don't know. I don't know, man. Honestly, I don't know what Mike would say. I'm going to ask him. I think he'd say that's gay. I'll put a dollar on it. A gentleman's bed of a dollar. I don't know if you would.

I don't know either. He might be like, you're gay, George. well and I think and I unfortunately I feel like this has been such a disservice to our friends that identify as you know being gay is that again I don't think it like our like we have to begin to realize like I don't how I identify as heterosexual shapes a lot of my life right and and not just the fact that I love pussy but it's like it it shows shapes just other parts of how I function in society and how I show up.

And that's been very normalized and where I feel like the pain of my friends that are in, you know, that identify, they don't, they don't get to, they don't get that same ease in society. And that's what's sad to me. They deserve that. They deserve the same ease. And they deserve to be able to love their partners in the ways and explore. But also realize, like, there's a normalcy there that this, whether this is gay or straight. And it's love.

It's beautiful. And I can learn a lot from it. And that's where I feel like, yeah, having these conversations with some of my friends that are gay, like, has helped me. Because I'm like, guys, help me. I feel really crude in my understanding. I feel really crude in my, like, ways I talk about this. Like, help me understand from another perspective. And it's been beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we make too much of a big deal out of it all, really. Yeah. you know i i i've just never like i've never been threatened by you know gay people like they've never been you know i don't view them as being threatening you know in any way um you know they don't make me uncomfortable um you know and it's just kind of always been that way you know like for a long time and so i don't i just kind of think that we just make too like this is gay or that's gay or whatever i just think it's like we make too much of a big deal out of out of all of it really you know like what people do in their own you know and their you know in their relationships who they choose the love and that and how

they choose to spend their time together you know like it doesn't it doesn't bother me so i think people should be able to do whatever they want in their own house it's a free country i'm not trying to disparage anybody i yeah go ahead i just i think that there is a lot of And I'm like I think that there's a lot of of area there where people that are uncomfortable and even myself sometimes like I don't mean to be. I'm not trying to be mean or rude or whatever, but I'm just trying to be honest about how I feel, you know. And like I got tons of gay friends and like I go at it, man. I don't I don't care what you. Everybody should be free to have a relationship and love who they want to love.

And I would never get in the way of that. But at the same time, like I wouldn't be me if I didn't tell you. Hey, this part kind of freaks me out a little bit. Yeah. And that's just important about having the conversations, right? Yeah, absolutely. Having the ability to talk about that and not be safe to be like, hey, help me understand this. Like, I don't, this is a little hard for me and I don't, you know, like I'm trying to figure this out because this isn't my experience, but clearly it's yours.

And that's where we have to be willing to have these conversations and show up both being, again, the masculine of the brave and the courageous when we find these edges and be willing to come at them with curiosity. Yeah, agreed. So I think something that I think we're going to see happen. And so, again, I don't know the circles that you guys see, but I see this a lot with Tiffany and some of the movement of like women. There's just this real like kind of like pussy power energy. And you see a lot of like women learning how to like reintegrate into their pussies. And it's a lot.

We have a lot of pussy talk in this house. So it's interesting. And this like kind of like integrated. in and with that comes some fluidity that you're starting to really see I think in women where they might be more willing to like have a bisexual experience they might be willing to have an experience with a with a woman and in that energy but not be identifying quote unquote as gay but it's kind of normalized because of this power of the pussy that they're understanding and I don't know I'm curious as men like again as we see more and more men step into

or masculinity, do you see, you know, does there become more fluidity? I don't know. It'll be like, societally, it's always been something I've been curious about, like, Rome and you look at these other, like, areas where, like, men had this fluidity and their sexuality. I don't know. What do you guys think about that? Like, do you think the masculine can be fluid in both the energies, or do you think it has to be one or the other? I think it's decadence. I think when societies have so much money, men no longer need to be men. They have so much freedom to go out and like you don't have to work that hard. Like you can, you can have a job where you can get your nails done and like, you know,

I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm saying in difficult times. I think the like difficult times make strong men. Strong men make good times. Good times make weak men. And I think we've gone through a period of really good times and we have a lot of weak men. I'm not saying gay men or weak men. But I am saying that like, you know, there's, like you said, there's tons of masculine game and it probably, you know, drive trucks and or fighters and all this stuff, but. I'm just saying.

Character of what a man is drives a bus. That's so funny. But I'm just saying, like. Ride motorcycle. It belong to bike clubs. Yeah, totally, right? All of those men. Oh, George.

But don't, what do you agree with the idea that if, like, if you don't have a lot of money and you got to do what you got to do, I think that when I think of difficult times, I don't think a gay men. Do you? Is there more game in difficult times or in easy times? Like when I think of like, like, like, I think of like San Francisco. I would agree that this conversation is doing the service to gay people, right? Like, you know, difficult times, the good times are the more or less gay people? I mean, geez, George, it's something I've never even thought about, ever. Why not?

Because I think there's always been the same amount of gay people. I don't think the times. I don't think that has, I think, again, it's. has nothing to do with these things about what happens in society. It's always there. Yeah. And like now we have to do. Like what's difficult times and what's good times, right?

I mean, shit, I don't know. That's, you know, I feel like it's a loaded question, George. It may be. It may be. Like, what do you think? Like, if I'm going to get sucked into that conversation, which I really don't want to get sucked into. you know

all I see are like windfalls man it's just traps there's traps everywhere I don't you know because I agree with Jason like I think I don't think it's like oh we have difficult time so you know there's

there's no gay people now we have easy times and there's more gay people you know yeah I think that's well I think you have the freedom I think the more money you have the more freedom you have all those things would like indicate to me that people would think that being gay is a choice yeah you know like it's it's it's to me it's not a choice it's like that's you that's you're born that way that's the way it is yeah

yeah i i i just i guess that influence you know it's not influenced by like you know by poverty so i mean are there more are there are more uh yeah i would i would challenge that a little bit in the poor community are there more i would community. Okay, I would challenge this on the idea of poverty. I'm not saying that poverty makes somebody gay, but I am saying that like, imagine, what do you think the relationship is between a heterosexual dad and a gay son? Do you think that that, like, there's problems there, right? Like, I think that there's a lot of problems there. It depends on how masculine the heterosexual dad is. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. It's a great point. I hope that all dads love their sons,

regardless of what preference they have or regardless of what their sexuality is. So here's George, I think, I think what you're, how I might kind of dive into what you're offering here is that I don't think that you can, we can look at good times or bad times as a delineation of what, like, more gay people or less gay people. I think what you, you see is actually repressed and ability to be in themselves. and in hard times or in a more closed society, the same amount, like, they're just repressed. They're not living into their identity. Right. So they might be closeted.

They might be with a woman. But that does not, that they're not in their true selves. Now, as things become easier in society and as maybe more resources become available, they can step into, I, I, again, this is a, bit of a hot take, but there's something really beautiful that the gift of homosexuality provides all of us. And again, this might be a little out there, but this is the mycelium talking, so I'm just going to do with that. But that there are a group of people on this planet that would say, I'm not going to reproduce. It's a gift. It's a beautiful thing. And I think it adds a balance to

society. I don't think that. What's that? I don't think that that's gay people are making that choice. What do you mean? I mean, you know, I don't think that being gay is a choice. Therefore, I don't think that there's actually a conscious thought amongst gay people that I'm not going to reproduce. It's a, but it's maybe, but it's a, it's a byproduct.

It's a reality. It's a reality. Right. But it's like people are making, you know, like this is, you know, I don't, you know, I don't think they're thinking about that. No, but that's understood. It is understood, but I don't think sometimes we honor it for what it is. Okay, so you're talking about like society.

Yeah, society, right? And again, again, talking to George's point of like living or oppressed or being able to live open and in a society, in a society that can celebrate that and celebrate, again, that there is like, they can express themselves without having to play these games of like, you have to reproduce and you have to have a family that looks this specific way like yeah that is there is some some real gifts when society can give that to people and maybe it does happen more when there's more affluence or more resources um but it's always there yeah well i mean you know the the times do shape you know um you know human behavior you know so

But yeah, so I was thinking like the world wars, right? When the world is kind of focusing on solving conflict through violence. Yeah. That, you know, there's just an air of, I guess you could call it masculine energy, like within society. And then so therefore, I can see, you know, homosexuals as being more reluctant to come out in a time like that. Right? To start talking about how, you know, how they're gay. You know, whereas, you know, like times when there seems to be, you know, less conflict maybe in the world, more time of abundance, less, you know, where the energy is a little softer,

then, yeah, maybe, maybe, you know, homosexuals are like, yeah, okay, you know, I feel comfortable in this time to come out and express what I am. It wasn't that long ago that we didn't let homosexuals in the military, right? why do you think why do you think that is we were a press society yeah right we didn't understand sex

you don't think that maybe the military wanted it to be super masculine and that they looked down on gay people as not masculine well I think but again I think sometimes yeah so cultural I think sometimes when we tap back in like if you were to go back to like Rome

and like gladiators and fucking like some of this like real masculine energy, dude, they were fucking each other. I, like, I, there's this fluidity almost to sexuality that was like men and military and like understanding and like fucking taking care of each other's needs. Like, it's like, come on. Like, let's be like, why? Like, how could you not also be a really powerful man and understand that energy and play

with that energy? And I think, I don't know. Yeah. It was a different time back then, right? You're talking about a time where, you know, they actually had, you know, there were bath houses. They were, you know, there were, there were sex houses, right? Right. Like, just like, hey, I need to stop and get a big gulp.

You could, like, walk into this place and there will be people in there having sex. Yeah. And so, you know, it was much more open back then, right? Like, it wasn't, sex wasn't a big deal. It was a pleasurable pastime. So we sometimes look at that as, like, the demise of the, society. So what do you guys think? Is like open sexual pleasure like that healthy in society or does it does it maybe signal some sort of crash? No, I think it's I think it signals a healthy society.

I think on some level like I don't think it should just be like free love everywhere. Like I think that there should be because like I think that there is something for for we get back to self-restraint and we back to discipline. And if everybody's just out fucking each other, like, there's no, there's no discipline there. Like, you should have to earn it. Like, I think that if you want to be with somebody, you should sacrifice and show them who you are. Like, if you just, it's like if you say, I say the word love all the time. And people are like, man, you shouldn't say that all time because you're wasting it. Like, maybe if you could just have all this sex all the time with just different people, I don't, I don't know that that wouldn't, I think it would stop.

you from having a lot of achievement maybe because like why why achieve anything like how much of what men do is to get a girl like when I when I was 17 like I moved out of my house when I was 17 and I was like I'm never going to get a fucking hot girl and I have my own place I have a car does I have a good job I have to be a good provider in order to find a woman that will want to be with me and I think that there's something to that I think that there's something about shaping the best person you can be and that comes from the idea of finding a woman that will love you. A woman wants to be with a guy that can provide for her, right?

Well, I mean, what's the flip side of that? I don't know. What is? Sexual repression. I think sexual repression is the cause of many society ales. Yeah, that I doubt. You know, we're talking about, like, you know, I mean, Jason wants to talk about, you know, like, molestation of little boys. like, you know, I guess what I've learned tonight is, you know, exists heavy in the Catholic community.

Is that news to you? I just never, you know, like, no, I mean, you hear the stories, but I just have never been like, yeah, that's the way it is. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't, I don't think that way. But, you know, maybe it is that way, but I just don't, like, I guess I don't, I don't, I don't view things like that. But, but, I mean, you know, with child molestation and rape and, you know, I mean, a lot of these things are because of like, you know, because guys got to get late.

And, you know, and maybe they don't have the best job and maybe they're not the best looking, you know what I mean? Or maybe they're not strong communicators or what somebody would deem to be masculine enough, right, to have a mate. but, you know, that doesn't mean that these guys, you know, that there's guys out there that, you know, don't deserve to get laid. And so... Isn't that nature's way of saying they don't deserve to get laid? I think it's a culture's way of saying that. But I think there's a bit of a misnomer here that sexual abuse is connected to a man's desire to get laid. I don't think those two...

That, man. What's that? I'm saying that this... is a factor. But I don't think it is. I think it actually is about, it's a, it's a,

it's a function of abuse. Like someone that, that is, that is rape, you know, someone that is a rapist or is a pedophile or these things, you look into their stories and there's always abuse. Always.

Like, no one's like, I'm just going to become a rapist. Like, I, you know, like, no,

there's abuse. There's abuse. trauma and there's undelt with shit. And that's the ills of society is when there's so many people that are traumatized. And they have zero tools on how to handle it other than fucking take this pill and it will make you not feel anything. That's what we've done to our society. What were you going to say, Paul? You said you agree with that or you don't agree with that?

No, I mean, it's like it's, it's, um, you know, Well, okay, so that's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that, you know, there's guys out there that, you know, and women too, right, that aren't getting any loving. And that becomes a problem, right? And not just for them, but for everybody. And so, you know, I think when you start shunning people, right, because they're not the best looking people, they don't make the most amount of money, you know. They, you know, they may not appear to be, you know, either masculine or feminine or whatever somebody's looking for. Then I think that becomes a problem.

Those guys, I mean, there's a ton of, and maybe they were abused, but there's a ton of, you know, serial rapist stories that you can read about and serial killer stories that you can read about where part of their sexual dysfunction was the fact that they could not attract the opposite sex. So they forced themselves on the other. And so they have forced themselves. onto people. And that's a problem, right? So we're talking about, like, in a more advanced society, I think that, you know, like the Roman bathhouse isn't, you know, maybe that's not the solution, but, you know, like I was been a proponent for legalized

prostitution. Yeah. Well, and I think the other thing that's also interesting to look at, too, is like, I will say a lot of these, like, informed consent with sex, right? And how abuse, and I think there's a lot of, you know, you hear these stories of, you know, guys that have, you know, college guys that have raped women and whatnot and how alcohol is always involved in those stories. And consent gets messy.

And, you know, that's the other thing of like looking at what's happening in society is, you know, what happens when you start, you know, dealing with your, you're fucking and you don't really know how to consent or, you know, you get roofied or all these horrible things that are happening and you're not given the ability of like truly like informed consent. Yeah, it's, it can ruin lives, right? Yeah, and that's, that's a lot of abuse that happens, you know? That's a lot of what people are experiencing. So, again, you talk about like being molested or, you know,

some sort of like sexual advance or, you know, some sort of sexual abuse is, it's, it's messy. I think that that's why there's so much porn now. I think that in my opinion, I think it's a, it's not only allowed, it's like promoted. Like, I think that people, like social engineers and governments, like they realize this. Like, there's clearly smart people in government that go, Okay, look, you can't have a majority of young men and not enough women. Like, that's a problem. Like, you're going to have violence. You're going to have outrage.

You have war. So if you can submit, like, if you can put porn out there, at least guys are going to be, like, jacking off and stuff. All right, we got another guy coming in here. Scott Hoover. Hey, what's happening, George? Welcome to the chat, man. You're here with Paul and Jason. Well, I'm only catching like, like, like little bits and pieces.

So toxic masculinity, I mean, I'm a construction worker. I'm a biker. What do you want for me, you know? I mean, the way me and you grew up, George. Okay, let me ask you this, Scott. Would you, is it gay to stick your finger and stick it up your butt? Jesus Christ, George. Fuck no, it's not gay.

Fucking expect if your old lady doesn't tell you, dude. Fucking whatever. Whatever, bro. I mean, look, George, that was a poor setup, man. No, that wasn't even a poor setup whatsoever. Be and George with the elementary school together.

We can do that shit. I forgot to tell you, I've known this guy since I was like five. Yeah, like, we're in, like, Maybe we're in the hospital together. Who knows? It could have been. It could have been. Yeah, yeah.

So what's up toss? What do you think about, like, Scott, what if there's too many, like, where we grew up? There was enough, was there enough girls for every guy? Like, what happens in society, Scott? When there's like, what happens, man? Like, when there's not enough, like, I wasn't going there, Paul. I just kind of came out that way. No.

No. No, like George Like Noah's Ark That's funny Whatever, whatever man You know what George Like I caught bits and pieces of what you were talking about earlier

And like they were These guys are like talking about Like These things that they have no idea about Like they had no idea how like Like short Scott Hover And short George Monty got picked on

and how we had you know how we had to like fight our way up I would like I don't know how Jason grew up but I can honestly tell you

Paul fucking is a gangster man he I have huge respect for him as the way he grew up and I know for a fact that he while him and I may differ

on different ideas of masculinity and like I think I can say this for everybody in the room well I may differ and I have an ideas of massaculate that he may differ and I have an idea of masculinity, I have huge respect for everybody in here, and I think everybody's fucking masculine. No, I'm not, I'm not going to disrespect anybody in here, but like, I, like, masculinity, like,

it's something that's being lost. Okay. It's being lost. It's, it's completely being lost. And men are not being allowed to be men anymore. And it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, sorry thing. Yeah. So what do you like you work with some younger kids as a construction worker. Like, do you think that the kids are, is it, is it that the kids are not as strong as, as maybe we were

coming up? Or is it, is it just that we're older and they don't, they look soft? No, we were, we were brought up harder, George. I mean, like, like what I was commenting, like, I was on the corner selling oranges at like six years old, you know? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It was a different life, you know. We're different people where some of them are coming up and they're their sons of, like, you know, superintendents or whatever. And they're going to learn it the hard way. And I love those kids for that.

You know what I mean? So, Scott, do you have kids? I have two daughters. yeah and they're grown okay um so i'm always curious about this like transference of the the like what made you a man and i agree in honor like fucking selling oranges on the corner right and that defined you as a man um but would you want that for your children fuck yeah i think that every kid needs to learn how to like earn and like make money and I think that's where society has gone soft.

Yeah. So how do you teach your children resistance or how did you teach your girls' resistance? I didn't teach them anything. I didn't get the chance to raise them, unfortunately. But it sounds like the kids these days argument that I hear. You know, like there's been some drastic shift

in the way kids behave today than when we were kids. you know, of course there is. Of course there is. I mean, like... I don't think there is. I mean, let me tell you something.

I mean, I had stepchildren my whole life. You know, I was with a wonderful woman and three beautiful girls the whole time. You know, and China just came out there. but no um no she uh she uh she parented different than i would have parented and i didn't you know you know it was a different it was a different time like cell phones were being put into hands and and everything like this this generation didn't get to experience like what me and George or you guys like, you know, growing up.

You know, we didn't have cell phones put in our hands, you know? All of a sudden there's these devices in their hands and they don't know how to function anymore at all. They don't.

There's no function. Like me and George, we can like, like, we can like, pull out of Thomas Brothers' map and find our way to Tijuana, you know? But like, these kids,

if, like, the GPS went down, they're fucked. Well, I mean, I mean, all that is, you know, is true, but I think kids these days experience their own unique set of challenges. You know?

Well, they have, they have skill sets that, like, you know, on some levels, like, we don't have. Like, they understand how to navigate a world that is digital. And they understand how to, like, they're giving a different set of tools. And I agree with you. None of my kids have devices and I don't want them in that world. But, like, they are being raised differently.

We were raised different. It's kind of the, like, every generation is going to have some shift that is, I think, And this is where you see like the blessing of the previous generation, right? It's like, hey, we learn these hard lessons. We want to teach you. Like, let us teach you these lessons, children. And can you hear it? And when you stop teaching the children how to, like, grow, then they, then you start seeing, like, society gets soft and these, these problems, right?

But like, exactly. And, like, me and George were brought up to fight, right? George? I think that we didn't have a choice. choice. Like, I got beat up a lot, man. I got beat up too. Like, like, like, Ray Haddon was telling Gina the other night,

like, how, like, I used to be fighting all the time, you know? But I think that that comes from being from a lower socioeconomic background. Like when you, when you grow up in an area where either you're the minority or you don't

have a lot of money, you know, I think that that is the case. And I think that that still happens today, right? Or is it that there's so much push for bullying that, like, kids don't get any. Like, sometimes I wonder this. Like, do I look at kids today as being weak the same way my dad looked at me being weak and his dad looked at him being weak? Are we just growing weaker every generation? No.

You don't think so? No. What do you mean? No, because, I mean, if your dad thought that you were, like, when you were a kid, you were a week, do you think he would think that same thing about you today? No, he doesn't think that at all today. Okay, well, there you go. So you think you would, you think you've fallen short at your dad's masculinity? No, I think I've improved on it.

Okay. Exactly. There you go. So kids today, by that logic, kids today will come up and think that they improved on our masculinity. Yeah. I can see that. So, like, it's interesting. Like, I was bullied pretty hardcore, but I didn't think.

fight back. And I lost my, that's part of my masculinity that I've actually had to come back into is I, I was so taken, I was like verbally abused. I never really got physical abuse, but like, man, I was decimated by my friends and bullied super hardcore. That sucks. But again, so it's interesting because like, I didn't fight back. I didn't have the tools. I couldn't, I wasn't witty enough. were smart enough to like fight back in a way that could stand up for myself. And that was that was lost. And that's something like I think some men learned how to fight back. And it's interesting you guys to talk about this because we had this conversation like

at work. If you could go to the future or your past self and have a 22nd conversation, what would you do? And I answered that as being like, I'd go back to fifth grade and tell myself, fight back. Because I didn't. You know what? George probably witnessed this with me. I got bullied, bad.

I was shorter, and he was, like, George was a wrestler. He was a stud. He was a stud. Thank you. And I was this little skinny kid. I was this little skinny kid, and everybody picked on me. And boom, I got chased out of Lincoln Middle School one day, you know. and like I ran out of the school crying my eyes out

until I decided to fight back and my dad pulled me into a garage and he told me he said you know you hit first you hit hard and you don't stop hating and nobody ever fucked with me ever since you know what was that lesson yeah what that was in sixth grade Scott? Yeah, that was in sixth grade.

It was Dominic Ray. And yeah. I remember. And like I whipped these ass all over the place. And then the next one was Josh Corso and the next one was Sean Rame and, you know,

it went on. Were you, like, so how do you, when you, when you, it was fucking traumatic. I remember. I remember it fucking happening. And I remember feeling fucking horrible. But what what was it like?

So how did the encounter go? So you get chased out of school and then do you come back the next day and just pick a fight? Or does he see you and start fucking with you again? No, he picked. I came back the next day.

You know, I licked my wounds. And my dad and my cousin like put a punchy bag in front of my face and they told me, they taught me out of punch. And that was it. that was that and like that's you want to call it toxic masculinity or whatever it's a boy learning to be a man you know was did that change your life would you say was that was your

life different after that fight oh yeah oh yeah I never took any shit ever again ever from anybody you know what amazing and one like it's amazing how like see like I think that that's a huge of what should happen. And I wish, I mean, it's interesting to hear these two stories. Like, you know, I, I wish that people could feel what that's like, you know, because it sucks to get bullied. I mean, I know what it's like, but it's, it's, it's so sweet when you're able, when you finally get the courage to fight back for yourself. It's like something fucking shifts in you.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, and there, there was, there was a. point in my life that like when I wasn't going to take any shit from anybody at any point no more, no more.

You know, I was like, well, and then people started challenging me, you know, and they wanted to fight. And I'll fight them. You know what I mean? And so, do you think that we're doing an injustice, have we done an injustice

to like a generation of children by not letting them fight? I think we have. Like, like, the whole, like, I really do think that, like, when a bully, like, bully somebody, they need to get socked in their fucking mouth. You know what I mean? I do. I mean, that's what it is.

And, like, you know, we grew up that way. and like it's boom you want to you want to bully somebody boom you get hit talk shit get hit so so I think like I don't see that as that

as being toxic masculinity I think but there's an interesting play where when when does that become the bully mm-hmm you know what you know what I will I will tell you one

thing because Mr. Hatch who was our vice principal was the one who was saying, Scott, you got to stick up for yourself. He was tired of seeing me like running out of the school and

crying and being, you know, being like the little bitch boy. And then there was a point where he said, Scott, you're done, dude. you're beating up too many people.

Yeah. You know. And Mrs. Dolan was like ISS and she was like, who'd you beat up? And I'm like, this kid. And, you know, and she's like, you're going to be treated real good here, you know? But like, I mean, that's the way it was back in the day. Do you think that I don't know if people that get, do you guys think that people that get bullied go on to become bullies? I think it's a path often, yeah.

I would disagree. I think that once you've been bullied, that you learn lessons there. I think the lesson you learn is, A, how it feels to be bullied, and B, what it feels to fight back. And I think that because you have been bullied,

it affords you some humility. You know, and I think that there's, it's like the dual sword right there. It's humility. But so much of bullying is playing on the week. of another person. And often that what ends up happening is you, you had a weakness that was exploited.

Yeah. And since you couldn't handle, like, so you were bullied in some way, shape, or form. And again, I think to your point, George, when you're healthy, like a healthy human being, yeah, you don't pass that on. But if you don't know how to deal with that, I would say the majority of bullies were bullied in some way, shape, or form. so you're you're you're saying that i am a bully no no no no no i'm not saying you are no no no i'm like what what like that's your rationale right now no i'm saying every person i was

and this is the question is like i believe in fighting back you have to fight back you have to find your voice again but you also have to learn the wisdom of not becoming the bully. I'm going to tell you right now, like George Marnie, and George is stud. George is stud. Nobody's going to fuck with George.

George up one time. I'm not going to fuck with George. George isn't going to fuck with me. You know, we have a mutual respect for each other. You know, it's like, we can fight each other and we'll both go to the ground and

and like, we'll, we'll roll around and we'll beat each other up you know yeah but you're not bullying there's no bully energy there no but check it out check it out I went on in life

to go into the Coast Guard and I went into the Coast Guard because I beat the fuck out of somebody I fucking hurt somebody so badly that they were put into an icy

unit. Now you sound like a bully. No. He hit me with a freaking doll. You know what I'm talking about? A doll

out of a closet? Right. Yeah. He hit me in the head with it. And I proceeded to you know, check him down under a car.

And like, I beat his ass badly. And I spent, like, you know, the next, like, four years making up for that. Because, like, I put somebody in a bad situation. I'm not that guy. You know what I mean? I saved so many lives. Like, you don't even know who I am, man.

I, like, I saved a lot of lives. did you do like as you were saving those lives were you did you feel like you were making up for the guy you almost killed yeah that's what i was doing that's what i was doing man do you do you feel like you still like do you still feel bad about what you did to that guy yeah i do feel bad but he fucking tried to hurt me you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah he tried to hurt me and like i i i did a lot of like, like seriously crazy stuff

making up for it, you know? Yeah. You know, fucking nobody can nobody can take what I've done away for me. Like there's pictures all over the internet of like what I've done. You know.

Like, you can't change, you can't control what happens to you, but you can control the meaning of that event. exactly right exactly and you know i mean you call it toxic mass masculinity or whatever you want to call it it's the way we're born and raised and we fought and we like that's that's that's that's how we're raised you know we fought we we we had combat you know there wasn't there wasn't there wasn't there wasn't anything that like anybody can like say back in those days we fought like fist flew and we were men and we are men now and now these kids don't have the they don't have the they don't have the benefit of what we did you know what I mean and it's a pretty sad situation when our country is going to be dependent on these kids that have never been socked in the fucking face.

You know what I mean? My grandfather. Yeah. Well, here's the thing that I... It's all, it's all like a pretty primitive way of looking at masculinity, to be honest with you, man. You know, like, we were men because we fight. it out. We're men because we sold oranges on the corner.

We're men because we were once bullied and then we, you know, we decided not to be bullied anymore. We're men because we put somebody in the ICU. We're men because we got famous on the internet because we went out and did stupid shit to save other people's lives.

It's like pretty primitive. You think fucking going out and saving people's lives is stupid shit? No, it just sounds pretty primitive idea of like this is like this whole, like a real twisted, like, view of masculinity, if you want to know, my opinion. Well, I mean, I think your opinion kind of sucks, but I'm, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, being respectful as respectful as I can. Okay. Well, don't hold back, brother. No, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I think he's saying that,

the idea of of what he doesn't agree with your idea. Kind of a superhero type of like way of looking at things. But why do you think it sucks, Scott? Why do you think what he said sucks? Just because it's like there's like some like little kid like Scott Hover that

you know just was bullied and fought his way back and just you know punched and fought and kicked and like boom next thing you know he's fucking in the Bering Sea and fighting is fucking you know he's he's he's grabbing people you know and or not in the Bering C I didn't grab anybody in the Bering C but I cut my teeth on the Bering C right I grab people on the Washington Coast you know

right I'll never I'll never like you know say what I don't do but like shit man I fucking save cops out there you know that that thought they were Baywatch you know and I still fucking like I'll save my friend

you know like I don't care like if George Monty was like getting like if some like big ass Samoan dude would fucking fuck with George Monty I'd fucking sock him up dude i don't care you know i'm i'm a man i'm a man and i know and it sounds like you kind of

gone through your life like going like pretty overtly trying to prove that to yourself no no it's just like i i know who my friends are and like i'll i'll lay down my life for him you know what and i'll lay down my life for another and women do i I, no, I took an oath to this country and I'll lay down my life for this country. So, like, when anybody says anything, like, that is just, like, counterproductive to society or whatever. Scott, can I offer this, man? Go for it, bro. I'm all, I'm all ears.

What the honestly dude, I want to honor like there's a piece of the masculinity about Finding your edge of where you would find death for something else That's a beautiful thing dude. It's like I would lay down my life for another human being So I think there's something there's something deeply masculine about what you're talking about and I think every man's journey Is to find the thing that he be willing to lay his life down for Scott and that's what every man brave or courageous? It could be. It could be bravery.

It could be courage. And again, every man has to make a decision. Would I lay my life down for my spouse? Would I lay my life down for my children? Would I lay my life down for my values? Would I lay my life down for my beliefs? What I lay? And then what are the, what are the, like, and that's the choice. That's a part of the masculine is knowing your edge, knowing where you would die.

It's a powerful piece of the masculine. energy that I would lay my life down for you. Right. There's something powerful about that. And a man. I would lay my life down for you. Not a stranger, a stranger.

I would lay my life down for you, brother, because I took an oath to do that. And there's something very powerful. Yeah. With these veterans and like people like me. Like, Like, seriously, I would lay my life down for you, bro. So, but the thing that we have to understand is that every man has to, to,

because you're willing to lay your life down for this country, we can't look at it as like, that makes you more masculine. And someone that's not willing to do that is less masculine. It just means you found your masculine. You know you're, you know what you're going to do. And I honor that. And Paul might choose a different. to that masculine energy and it's not to say one is more or less masculine it's about dude what

are you willing to die that's the question that's the masculine question where are you willing to die well you know i've i've obviously stated it you know i'd laid my life down for another person so i just wanted that's and i laid my life down for my country you know yeah it's it's a beautiful masculine energy and i don't know george what what's your at What would you die for? What would I die for? Oh, man, I would die for my family. And I would, I don't know, I would try to, I would die in the service of trying to do the right thing if the situation called for it.

I'd like to think that. But sometimes I think that we don't really know until the situation arises. Like, I like to think all these things that I would do. But you don't know until you're in that situation. Exactly, George. Exactly. Exactly. You know, like, there's like, like, somebody could like put a, you know, could try and stab George and I'd fucking stand in front of them.

You know what I mean? That's, that's who I am. That's who I am. Man, I... Paul, what did you die for? I mean, I'd die for my family. And then, like what George said, that the situation arose where, you know, I was, I was defending my beliefs, you know, I would definitely die for that.

What do you, I mean, do you really think you can stand up? Like, okay, so me and you, Paul, we differ. We differ. Big time, right? I don't know about big time, but on this, we differ. Okay, do you think you can stand up against me? Like, like, I'm a guy who keeps a gun in my nightstand. I don't keep a gun in my nightstand because I don't live in fear.

I'm not living in fear. I'm living in, like, protection. I know, like. I don't think that way. I'm not a fear-based person. I don't keep going. Are you saying that, like, I'm living in fear? Because, like, somebody is willing to stand there and ask me?

if I'd be willing to stand to them. Yeah, for sure, bro. I'd stand to you. But then at the same breath, tell me, like, you're keeping a gun in your closet or under your pillow or whatever. That's fear based. That's what I hear. I hear fear coming out of your mouth. You hear fear. I do. But I have no fear, bro. George knows I have no fear. You have giant insecurities. I don't have any insecurities, bro. I can, I can like,

like jump up and like throw down any time, any place. Which just continues to further my belief that you have fears and insecurities. I don't. I don't, brother. I don't. That's like that's what's funny. Like to me, like any man who jumps into a conversation and starts talking about like,

this is what I'll do to another person and this is what I've done. And I keep guns. All I hear is scared, scared. Scared. That's what I hear, man. I don't hear masculinity. I hear fear. You know, that's what's so funny is like George knows me so well.

He knows me so well. He knows me so well. And he knows like, hey, is Scott over scared of anybody, George? Well, Scott, like, I think I love. George jump into your defense, Scott. Well, look. I love... I'm just saying.

I mean, honestly, man. You know what I mean? Like, this is what I'll do. You know, this is what I've done to people. I fight. We fight. I sell oranges on the corner. You know what I mean?

Like, that's what I hear. Fear, man. That's what I hear. Man, I'm more Mexican than anybody in this fucking town, dude. Fucking, you know, whatever. Whatever. What is that with anything?

What is being Mexican, or your degree of being Mexican? have to do with anything, man. In Vista? It means a lot, right? Really? I spent 20 years in Vista. Oh, really? Yeah. Really?

Really. Yeah, what street you from, bro? I grew up near John Landis Park. Okay, cool. Yeah, me too. You did? Yeah. All right. What street? Terry.

bro, Terry. So check it out. Like, there's, there's, like, there's, like, I don't want to see whose dick is bigger right now because I guarantee you. But maybe the future. Is that what you're saying? You know what, brother?

I'm going to tell you right now, anytime you want to... All right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right. That's enough. That's enough. I love you. I'm fucking, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to you a little bit later, Scott. I love you.

All right. All right. All right. Now we're back. For the record, I grew up on Buna Place, if anybody cares. I don't care, George. I know you don't care. I know you don't care.

I think you handled it well. And I think that, like, I think Scott fought fucking very masculine from where he started. And he fucking fought like a champ to get where he is now. And, you know, I'll leave it at there. But, yeah, it's interesting to, it's interesting to get to see different people at different stages of their life and how they feel about it. You know, and I don't necessarily think it's wrong or it's right as much as I think it could be right for. that person if that kind of makes sense. You know, I think it's interesting to see different people on their journeys.

And especially for me, like, I know, like, I've known that guy since we were kids. And when I hear him say things, like, I see what he's saying because I fucking live the life with him right there. But I would have to agree that it is primitive in a lot of ways. Like, I fucking love that guy. But I think some of the ways he's seeing his life could be better. You know, and I say that from a fucking place. of love. But yeah, it's

crazy. It's interesting. But that's... Well, I think something that's key about, and what I love, again, just some of what Scott was sharing, and at least what I was trying to see in the positive was the masculine holds very primal

energy. And there is very primal energy to the man. And again, we have to learn how to integrate. And we can't just be attached to the primal, we have to be attached to also the wisdom, right? And we have to be attached.

We have to find, otherwise, the primal creates a cycle. And we break that cycle by finding wisdom. But we need the primal, like on some levels. We, primal masculinity is, like, in its raw form, like, also, like, the idea of fighting, like, I was, you know, my boys, I don't feel like my, my son is in sixth grade. and that's when a lot of bullying happens. And it's when it happened to me.

And I don't see him getting bullied right now. And I'm really grateful for that. But, dude, we wrestle. Like, I fight with him. Like, I'm like, all right, dude, let's throw down. Right. Like, let's wrestle. Let's get physical with each other.

That's important. Like, teaching him. And there is something about the masculine that needs to know its edges. And it needs to know its power. And it needs to know, you know, what is it like to feel like it has dominance and what does it feel like when it's in submission? Those are, and George is a wrestler, I'm curious.

Like, you, how did, how did you find your masculinity through through fighting in that form? Like, really, you know, physical a, uh, a, uh, match with another man. Like, tell me about that. So for me, like,

uh, I remember in, like, I remember in kindergarten, just being chased around the playground and just getting, fucking beat up. And it's ironic, because the guy that beat up Scott and that Scott finally beat up Dominic Ray, when I was in kindergarten, Dominic Ray was my bodyguard. And he's kind of crazy, right? And then in like fourth grade, I was playing soccer.

And I was, I was really small, man. I think I weighed 80 pounds in high school in my freshman year, like 85 pounds. And so I was a year younger than everybody, too. So in fourth grade, everyone was bigger and older than me. And remember Paul Arandondo, we were playing soccer and started laughing at me, laughing at me. And I started pushing him and I started pushing him and yelling at him. And he just picked me up and threw me on the ground. I landed on my head.

I started crying. Me and Paul both went to the, both got referrals and went to the office. They called our parents. And then my dad came and picked me up. And he's like, what happened, son? I'm like, I got in a fight. He's like, did you win? I go, nope.

And that was it from my dad for the ride home. And then I got home. and my mom was home and she was like, what happened? I got in a fight. My mom said this. He goes, you know what, George? You're younger than every boy there and you're not going to be as big as every boy there. So you need to learn how to fight with your words.

And from this point forward, if you get in a fight and you can't talk your way out of it, can't figure out a way to use your words, then you probably deserve to get hit. You need to figure that out. So then after my mom had told me that, then my dad had um my dad decided you know what george you're going to go wrestling and from like the next week on like i wrestled two days a week and then i wrestled from like fifth grade until my junior

year in high school and by like the first few years of going and wrestling i'd go every saturday i fucking hated it i hated it i'd go to practice every kid of what my ass my dad would be like wrestle those bigger boys i go there and i just get beat up i get pinned i get thrown around and I didn't win a wrestling match for like a year and a half and I never like I remember being way out in the middle of the desert this place called Hopeville and like you know you would wrestle on a given Saturday you'd wrestle four matches and so I remember going there and crying I could cry every Saturday I don't want to go I don't want to go I don't want to go my dad's like you're going

and so one day at the in holtville like I just went out there and I would just lay down and I don't let the guys beat me and my dad like I came back and my dad's like look George you're always going out there. So you might as well try to win because you're going to keep going until you do win. So one day I went out there and I choked a guy. Like I threw him in a head and arm and I choked them.

And I felt so like proud of myself, you know? And then, you know, that was like in fifth grade. By the time I was in seventh grade, dude, I was the fucking goddamn best wrestler in my age group in the county. Wow. And yeah. And then, but then it never stopped there

because when I was in seventh grade, my dad started taking me to the high school practice. And he's like, you're going to wrestle all these boys now. And I'm like, fuck, dude, I'm like 12, dad. I wasn't even 12. I was probably like 10.

And by the time I got to high school, I remember I would, I wrestled varsity in my freshman year. And I'll never forget being, like, we had like, we were wrestling for like this, the, the conference championship.

And I remember being in like the varsity locker room. Don't even have hair on my balls, man. You know, when I was wrestling 98 pounds, but I probably only would, 888. And I remember I'm the first guy out because I'm the smallest. And I remember sitting in there with these fucking other boys. Like I remember Mike Nicholson was the fucking team captain. And I remember like, I'm sitting over there and I'm like, dude, all these guys are like, these are the older boys, you know? You don't need hair on my balls, man. And then like,

I just remember Mike Nicholson coming to me. He goes, are you fucking ready, George? You ready to do this? You represent the team right now. And I felt like it was like Lord of the Flies, man. I like, I idolized this guy. He just comes over to him and he looks at me. He's like, you're going to go out there and you're going to fucking kick this guy's ass, just smacking me a little bit. Are you ready? Remember, just like, that changed my life, man. Wow. And so, like, that to me, you know, I ended up becoming captain of the wrestling team, you know.

So for me, it was this long haul from being the kid that got beat up to learning how to use my words, which meant, you know, I still had to try to be witty or charming. And then getting to the point where I was in high school. And even like, I love Scott saying I'm a badass or whatever, but I never really felt that way, you know, And I still don't really feel that way. Like I try to rely more on my words and on my language.

You know, in shit in high school, I got beat up a bunch. I remember I got jumped a couple times. And, you know, I spent a lot of time on East Los Angeles Street. That's where I kind of grew up by these guys, a little off to the side. But, you know, it was predominantly a Mexican neighborhood. And I remember coming out and like skateboarding. I wanted to skateboard to like the warehouse to get a music tape. But I had to skate past like all the fucking section 8.

fucking places. And here's what I learned about being a white guy in Vista. Like, like there's a whole language like, like that's language, man. That means run, white boy. You're about to get blasted. And so, you know, you grow up in these neighborhoods where, like I knew I was going to get beat up sometimes. And luckily I knew some cool guys. Or let's leave George alone, you know, but, you know, I think that getting beat up like that And it sucked because I did sometimes. But yeah, I guess that that's my trip for masculinity. Does that answer your question?

Yeah, it's awesome. It's a really interesting. I mean, it's a beautiful thing that shaped your understanding of masculine. And like, what a gift from your dad. Why do you think your dad pushed you that way? Have you ever like, did you ever ship him? Yeah. Yeah.

It's a great question. Thanks for asking. Like my dad told me this and his children in my head. it's that you get out of wrestling, wrestling's like life. You get out of it, what you put in it, and that mental toughness is everything, mental toughness. And there would be times where I would wrestle, and he'd be like, you know what, George,

the only thing's holding you back is your mental toughness. He's like, you can beat these. The only reason you'll ever lose any fight is because, A, you made a mistake or B, the guy was better than you. That's it. There's only two reasons. And you can overcome both those reasons. If you made that mistake, then don't make that mistake again.

If that guy's better than you, he trained harder than you. Those are the only two things, George. And mental toughness, he's like, you can do anything. And the thing about wrestling, too, is like, for every move, there's a counter move. Yeah. You know, and so my dad would say good guys, George, really good guys, they'll think two moves ahead. Great guys will think three moves ahead.

I want you to think five moves ahead. Wow. And like that kind of stuff makes you, it translates into life. It translates into like, okay, not only is that true for wrestling, but that's true for thinking. That's true for conversations. It's true for talking. If I'm looking at somebody, I'm going to think, okay, they're going to say this. I'm going to say that.

And I do it all the time. I talk to myself, I'll have discussions with somebody that's not even here. And I'll do it for like 30 minutes. If I'm going to go into a meeting, then I'll just pretend I'm talking to somebody. And they'll say that. I'll say this. You know, another, I think I probably wrestled almost, I probably wrestled over a thousand times, you know, because I would go every Saturday.

And I think that there's something that happens when you're physically, you know, it's a fight, but it's not, it's a sanction fight. So, you know, you're pulling arms, you're getting in people's faces. I think you start to understand body language. And they, in fighting, they call it telegraphing. Like if a guy, sometimes a guy would shoot to the right twice before he'd shoot on you. So you would know his tell, kind of like poker, people have a tell. And I think when you wrestle a lot or when you fight a lot, the physical contact, once you become

unafraid of it, you begin to embrace it in a way. And you're like, oh, I see what this guy's doing. I can tell by the way this guy stands that he's scared. I can tell by the way that this guy is leaning into me that he wants to fight. You start to see all these tells in people. And I think that that's one of the things I tell my dad all the time is even though I hated him sometimes, even though I didn't want to wrestle and I cried like a baby, I'm so thankful that he forced me to do it.

And he's like, yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. Those same tells come through in language too. They do. They do. Wrestling is fighting is a language. you know the same way you would come with like a with like a combination if i'm going to jab jab left hook the same way i set you up in language like i ask you two questions and i already know

the language battle you know language battle just happened before us right now um yeah anyways moving on i think something that's interesting about how um when we think about the future generation and we're like oh the future like this generation right in hearing this we've been talking about it right like how do we not raise and i think of this a lot like that's my response that's on me if the next generation is soft that's on me i didn't show up from them and i think about my boys like if my boys are are going to show up quote unquote soft in this world that's on me that's bad parenting that's not society that's not devices that's that's that's victimhood mentality that's like again, starting where we started this conversation of like so much coming at us that we don't

get to like really make a choice. Like if I wanted like ensure the next generation is going to be understanding their masculinity, that's on me to teach my boys. And if they don't get it, that's my fault. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that's all of us right now. I think that especially now, like I think that there has been a lack of masculinity.

Like we talked about in the beginning of conversation. And that's like even from, I think that this conversation has been fantastic in the words of masculinity. I think that people could listen to this and they could agree with one person or agree with the other person. But I think that they're going to see masculinity in this conversation. I think that the way that Paul and Scott talked to each other was a very masculine way to talk to each other. There was a lot of aggression in there. And there was a lot of chatting back and forth. And I think that that is a great representation of masculinity.

Like sometimes, sometimes conversations end up talking shit. sometimes conterfitions end up fighting but that's masculinity and I guarantee you Paul's lost no respect I guarantee you Scott's lost no respect you know I like that's what men do we might not agree we're gonna talk some shit might end up in a fight it might not but that's what men do

you know what I mean I think it's a great example well I mean I think it's just it's conversations like that that just digress where I actually feel the opposite man that you start to loop your masculinity in those situations where you you know where it's like

you start to take on womenly behaviors, man. You know, like, you, like, you should be able to, you know, express yourself, right? And not be like, you know, like, okay, like, somebody, somebody's going to lose their shit so much that, you know, they're going to call you out. Like, you know, let's fight type of thing. That's a person who's frustrated right there, right? Like, that's what happens. You frustrate people. I believe, you know, they, they, they, they, they,

begin to lose their masculinity. They begin to lose their cool. And so they fall back onto the primitive. Like I tell my son, right? I'm like, I was like, the weakest ones are the ones that do all the talking. The weakest ones are the ones that are always telling you how strong they are. Those are the weakest ones. The scariest person is the guy you never see coming, man.

Right. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. You don't even, they're the, the quiet person. like you don't know what they're thinking, but they're a fucking psycho inside. You know what I mean?

Like I've seen a few of those in my life. They're rare, but they're out there, man. And those are, I mean, and I guess it gets back to the strong silent type, right? Like, that used to be something in the greatest generation.

It's not like, I don't know, it's not really much the strong silent type, right? Although those, those people do exist. Yeah. But,

you know, it's, it's, it's the fear-based ones that, that, that like really get to me. And, and, like,

they take their fears and they turn them into, like, a perception of masculinity. Right? Like, people, and you see that in people that are, you know, that are insecure.

You see that. And it's like, you know, like I'm listening to you guys, I don't have any experience with bullying. I was never bullied. And so, like, it was real fascinating to hear, like, these stories.

Like, here's the preface to the conversation ready i'm going to tell you about masculinity but first i need to express how i was bullied right right and then so i think there's like you know some of that could be you know like what's born of that could be like this like hyper masculine like perception like i need to project this type of imagery so i'm never bullied again right of course of course that's that yeah yeah and then there's the you know then there's the like hey I can really I've come to grips with the fact that I was bullied and then I know how to deal with it you know in a in a mature masculine way right like it's not

going to drive me you know what I mean like I control it it's not it's not driving me well I think sometimes you know there's something about the the stability and again coming back to a theme of our masculinity, whether it's consistency or stability. But stability has a posture of not being able to be offended. And bullying is built on the premise of offending, of hurting. And the masculine, I feel like the invitation is like, you cannot offend me. Because what that, that means you have power over me. That means you could say something that I would take offense to.

You can't, and I think that's part of the path into the masculine is getting to that place of like, yeah, you can't, you can't offend me. Now, there are things that could be done that are vulgar or, you know, might be offensive. Sure. But that's you. That's your action. I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be offended by that. That means I'm coming down to your plane. I'm not going to play that.

So the way to get past bullying is to choose to not give it the energy or to be offended by it. You know, or, you know, does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think another addition to that, like those are learned behaviors. And when we look at the way people end up thinking about masculinity, it starts with the foundation, right? And if your foundation comes from overcoming a bully or being bullied or not being bullied, you're going to, you may end up on a different side of the mountain, if that kind of makes sense.

Like if you were taught like, okay, this is how you deal with this, then you build on that success. You know what I mean? So when Paul was saying you can end up having a hyper masculinity or even Jason, when you were saying a bully can become a bully, like you could see how that foundation could be built like okay i had this success here that means if i continue to do this i should have the same kind of successes yeah but ultimately i think that you know it's it's a lot it's hard masculinity is a very difficult for a man to understand like it doesn't come with a rule book there's no instruction sheet and each individual man is given a certain set of tools and you have to

carve out what masculinity means for you. And it's hard to do. It's, it's, and each man is, you know, probably trying to do their best at what they think masculinity is or maybe they weren't given the tools or maybe they have carved out what they thought it is. And, you know, that that, that's what leads men to fight sometimes is this idea that my masculinity is different than your masculinity and mine's greater than yours, you know, and, in some ways it devolves into the ego maybe yeah yeah very much part of it but i think yeah i think you know it's interesting about the journey also like the man is finding like going out and finding the tools that will serve you in your masculinity right and that's what i think we're all called to is like all right

does this tool help me right so wrestling right it served you in a beautiful way so it's a beautiful tool for your masculinity. And then it shifted in your, you know, energy or whatever. Like, and then we go do, you know, we go learn tools from wisdom thinkers and, and they give us different tools and some of them work for us and some of us don't. But like, that's, the, the man is also the learner, right? And, and the man is also working his mind and he's, he's practicing and he's thinking and he's contemplative and he's, you know, has a posture of learning, I think is a key piece to masculinity as well. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think one, like as I've gotten older, like when I look at masculinity, like I, I see myself, I try to. I try to see myself in every other man because, I mean, we're all men, right? When you think of mankind, like, we're all man. And I think if you're honest with yourself, you can look at another man and at least recognize yourself in that man. And when you do that, it's very difficult to be upset with that other person. If you can understand yourself in that person, does that kind of make sense? Like,

I can look at myself and see, I can see myself in every one of you guys. You know, like, oh, yeah, I recognize that. I see what you're saying. Like, I get that, you know, and like, that's me recognizing myself in the other. I think that's a big part of being a man is being able to do that because there's been a lot of times where I have met other guys and be like, I fucking hate that guy. That guy's a piece of shit. And then I have to step back and be like, why? Why do I do that? Well, I hate him because he's weak.

This happened to me at my work. I'll tell you a story. I was a guy at my work. He was the nicest guy in the world. But I just, he was so weak. I fucking hated him. And like, I would find my, I didn't know this until I was just always mean to him. He would come up and say stuff.

And I'd be like, I'd say something kind of like, like we were talking shit, but it was kind of mean. But I thought I was just talking shit. And then like someone pulled me aside. I was like, dude, why you're a dick, George? Why you talk shit to that guy like that? And I'm like, what? We're just, that's what guys do. And he's like, no, that's not what guys do.

I'm like, you're being a dick. And then I had to like be honest with myself. And I went, I went home that day and I started thinking like, yeah, I am being a, what the fuck is wrong with me? Why would I do that? And then like, I took a long, hard look at like, why was I doing that? Because it started really bothering me. And I go, and I came to the conclusion, that guy's weak.

And then I'm like, so what? So what if that guy's weak? And then I went, I'm weak. And that guy reminds me that I'm weak. And so rather than me working on me, I'm going to take it out on him. And that really affected me. And I pulled that guy aside. And his name was Rod.

I go, hey, Rod, I've been an asshole to you, man. And I just wanted to fucking tell you, I'm sorry. Like, I'm being a dick. And I didn't, I got no excuses, man. I'm weak, man. I'm sorry for being a dick to you. And that guy, dude, he's like, hey, no problem, George. And at that moment, I'm like, that guy was a million times more masculine than me.

And maybe he still is. But it takes a while to get there. Like, it takes, when you see somebody else like that, at least in my situation, you have to be honest. You know, it's tough. That story right there is kind of like, that's kind of what I've been alluding to all night. You know, like the perception of masculinity, right? like, you know, that embodies it right there. Like, you apologize to this guy and he's just like, yeah, whatever, it's cool, you know?

And he's probably looking at you going, God, man, I got to stop treating George like a retard. Yeah, totally, dude, totally. And like, maybe I should really start concentrating on myself because, you know what, I'm a fucking dip shit too. Well, and the other pieces that I love about this is like also the need of having other men in our lives that call us on our shit Right like part of being part of that masculine energy is being able to hear that message like dude check yourself Like we need that we need other men around us to be like hey you're being a dick and go figure that out Totally totally right and that's a powerful and that's that takes courage and again that to me is like like, that's someone else that was comfortable in their masculinity to call you out.

And you, you know, going back to where we were earlier, like, why don't more men tell their bosses like, dude, that's a fucking dumb idea. And if you go down that path, these are the three reasons why it's going to suck. Yes. And if we started doing that and bosses were able to actually be like, all right, let's have that conversation. What do you mean? Why am I off here?

Check me. Instead of having to be the fucking alpha male who's really. right all the time. Yeah. Right. You don't, bosses, you don't have to be right all the time. Fucking use the men, the smart doze that are around you and create enough space for them to be like, you're being a fucking dick with this idea.

You're wrong. Yeah. That's business. We need that. We need men that are able to have those conversations. And when you can have that in a business, fuck. Like, you're doing business a different way. And I hope we see more of that.

Like, that's part of what I hope. for men. It's like you can show up and you don't have to play the like the game anymore. You know, like, oh, my ideas aren't hurt. Like tell your boss. How'd that conversation. Yeah. And I think that that is where much like we see all the time, like emotions can run hot, especially if what I've learned this journey to like I've been fired a lot of times. And I've found myself in offices and like having discussions and losing. So many arguments, like, just like wrestling or just like anything in life. In the beginning, you suck and you lose.

But if you keep going, you get better. And my evolution of language has come from me being in trouble. Like, you know, for example, like I used to go into the office and people would say, you know what, George, we don't think you're really working hard enough. We want you to work faster. And then they would show me this sheet of numbers. And it was like, you know, it was all these arbitrary numbers. And it was like, it was just, it's a tactic. to get people to get you to work faster.

And it took me a long time to realize, like, I can't yell and call them names. Like, that's an ad hominem attack that doesn't do anything. But you know, what I can do is I can point out the flaws in their thinking. And in the very beginning when you're in a situation, if it's an enclosed room and there's another man over there or two men, you know, the situation, a lot of situations are put there in front of you as a man to intimidate you. And it's very difficult to get through intimidation, especially when something's setup to intimidate you. If you go into a locked room with two other guys that have more seniority

and they can say, we're going to take this away from you. And by take this, I mean your job. So now you have to get comfortable in your own skin and with your own ideas to be like, listen, you guys are, I'm thankful that you're here. I appreciate it. Let me tell you why you guys are wrong. The numbers you're trying to use are not a formula that works. Like you're not, you're not measuring all the variables in this equation. And that's why the numbers look wrong to you. And then they just sit there and look at you. Like, what?

Yeah, the very, like, show me. This matrix you guys are using, you're not counting all the variables. So you're not going to get the right answer. If you guys want to do it the right way, I can show you how to do it. But the right way is not you sitting in here yelling at me because I am right and you are wrong. And I can prove that because I can go out and do it and you can't. You know, and when as a man, you can get to the point where you can express. your ideas and you're not going to get rid of the emotion, but you can tamp it down a lot.

And when you can do that, that becomes the masculine. Too often as a young man, I thought the masculine was yelling. I thought the masculine was getting mad. I thought the masculine was fighting. But the true masculine is being able to, I think it was Sun Tzu who said the most effacious form of war is to never throw a punch or fire a gun. Like that that's the best warrior Someone who never has to get in a fight

That was that What was that Sun Tzu? Yep Yeah It's interesting to think about But I think it's It's interesting George

Yeah The friend of God is asking many times To be unmuted Scott I love you to death my friend But dude I feel like you're drinking man I don't see if this

I don't see this goes anywhere So I hit you up tomorrow my friend. I love you. Go ahead, Jason. Sorry, I lost my thought there when I was headed. Well, maybe that's a good spot to leave it, man. It's almost, it's midnight over here. Sun's going to be coming up where you are pretty soon, Jason. I was going to say it's well into the dark 3 a.m. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome, man.

Yeah. All around. Yeah. Tap the Rockies. It's freezing outside. I'm jealous that you can like, I was hearing the rain in the background and I was getting jealous. That's me.

That's my house, bro. It's been pouring out here for like weeks. Wow. We're in single digits right now. Oh, temperature. Yeah, it's like 75 right now, I think. Rainin. All right, guys.

I'm going to turn in, man. I'm exhausted, man. But I'll talk to you guys. soon, I'm sure. Yeah. All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the True Life podcast. I love you guys. We'll do it again soon.

Aloha.