TrueLife - Late Night Psychedelic Psychology with Paul Apau

Episode Date: January 7, 2023

Friday night live! Imagine watching a debate, where if one of the participants commits a logical fallacy then he receives an open handed smack by the other! Could this be an entertaining way to bring about the rules of debate to the masses? In this conversation we begin by talking about the world of symbolism. As the mushrooms kick in the conversation become a wide ranging exercise in philosophy. Imagine watching a debate, where if one of the participants commits a logical fallacy then he receives an open handed smack by the other!

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. We think about symbolism, man. You have any, you set ideas on symbolism? Ah, like, you know, like a little bit. you know, I'm kind of, I'm kind of the anti-symbolism. Well, I mean, I guess in a patriotic way.

Hmm. Yeah. Oh, I've always, I've always viewed symbolism. What does that mean? I mean, I've always viewed symbolism as being a tool, you know, to control people. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, that's kind of my, it's my, it's my,

that's my reading background. Yeah, I agree, but do you think that it has to be to control people, or is it maybe just a way to communicate beyond language? Because it kind of does the same. I mean, communication is the foundation for control, but it doesn't have to be, symbols don't have to be to control people. They could just be a language, right?

Yeah, for sure. and which is kind of like the anti-George Monty for again the more complicated the language is the uh you know the smarter people are or the more advanced the civilization is which i don't think that's true and i think i think symbology right um is uh like proof uh it doesn't support your theory right right yeah so you know i As I move through this, this, I don't know, this life we're living, I guess. I'm just fascinated by different symbols throughout the time. You know, and it doesn't have to be one language being better than another language

or one language being, you know, not as descriptive as a language. But the ideas of meaning that come from symbols, it seems to me that pictures, you know, you often hear that term of pictures worth a thousand words. And sometimes you and I can see the same picture and understand what the meaning is. Like if you and I saw a picture of our old high school, we would both realize that's our old high school and we would identify with it. And it's something we could identify together on, even though we would have different stories about that image. So when I think about the or the Rancho Longhorns

is a symbol of the school we went to, it's interesting to me how we can I can show you a picture of it or I can say Rancho Buena Vista and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about even though we have different stories about that thing.

I'm trying to get to when I talk to symbols. It's kind of blowing my mind. Yeah, I mean, I don't really know if schools are symbols You know, when I think about symbols, I think about, you know, flags. I think about, I mean, there's a lot of different things that I think about. When I think about, like, a school or a place, I don't, I guess they can be symbols of a community.

Sure. But I don't really. I look at symbols as having, you know, means. to them that can be interpreted either, you know, by understanding the meaning behind each part of the symbol or, you know, or, or just, you know, being a, like, symbolologists they use, you know, they use similar symbols to help depict or to help understand what the symbol is depicting, right? And so like when I see a school, I don't know if that's in there. I mean, I understand it's a school, you know, but it could be any school, you know. You think it's a symbol of learning? I understand what it could be, a symbol of learning.

Yeah. You know, but I mean, I understand what you're saying. You and I can look at that, you know, RBV and understand what it is. And then, yeah, we have different stories about it and, you know, different experiences there. Yeah. But, yeah, like, when you think of symbols, George, what do you think of? Like, if you were to see, what to you is the most recognized symbol? Probably the Yin and Yang symbol.

Like, that's one that, you know, ever since moving to Hawaii, that's, like, one that you kind of see around. It's like the town and country sign a little bit. And it's also, you know, it means a lot to me just because there's so much in there. And the more, I think that all of us are kind of called to symbols. And every, like you may have a different symbol that you think of when I ask you about it. If I asked you to say symbol, you might say something different than I say the yin and yang sign. And I think that there's something to that. I think the symbols are calling to us because we are, when you think of a symbol, you know,

maybe someone thinks of a heart or like I said, I think of a thing. the yin and yang sign, but I think that those symbols are calling to you. That's why you're thinking about them. And when you think of your favorite symbol or you, there's a symbol that pops into your head, what you're really doing is identifying with the meaning of that symbol. You may not know, it may not be a conscious thought, but that I think that symbols are almost like an unconscious language that we use and we may not even be aware of it at times. What's your favorite symbol or what's a symbol that you think about some time to time? I don't know. I don't really think about symbols, but I would think a popular symbol would be like, you know, I think the American flag is, you know, probably one of the most recognized symbols on Earth.

And I think it's something that people actually think about, you know, even more than maybe yin and yang. You know, that's kind of a, you know, it's a culture thing. where I think, you know, the American flag is pretty simple in its messaging. You see it, you understand it, especially if, you know, if you're not here in America. You know, I mean, I don't know what people are thinking about that simple today, but for, you know, generations, people have looked at it and, you know, people have dreamed about it and, you know, that aren't living in America. So I think it's probably, to me, it's one of the most recognized symbols in the world.

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think a course on flags, it would be something that I want to take. And I think most people should take. Like, what's an upside down flag mean? In distress. Yeah.

Yeah. You see them in movies, whatever. It is a maritime thing. In fact, an American flag with gold fringe on it represents maritime law. That's why if you go into a courtroom, you'll see the flag with gold fringe on it, because when you're in a court of law, you're under maritime law. Like, there's a law. We have land lawyers and maritime lawyers.

And if you pass the bar, then you are willing to practice under maritime law. that's what all commerce is done under do they call that the admiralty flag that's a good question i don't know the word admirals in there but i'm not sure on that i like i said i would not take a class on flags i think that there's a lot to be said about it you know i think that we've lost a lot

you know if we just talk about the american flag like how much has that changed even though the stripes and stars haven't changed on it you know, the meaning of America today is wildly different than what it meant to the silent generation, the boomer generation, or the Gen X, you know, versus the millennials. It's interesting to think about how here's this one symbol. You know, some people call it a symbol of freedom or a beacon of freedom. And a lot of people today wouldn't see, like I probably wouldn't see in the flag today what my grandfather saw on it. No, you know, and that's that's the, that's because that flag is a lot of,

live. So what do you mean? Well, you know, it represents a living nation. And, you know, and to, you know, that flag also represents, you know, to do better to every day, right, try to be a better nation. And the people within it trying to be better people. And so that flag, unlike some of the other flags, like, like take the case. Confederate flag, for instance, that people like to fly. When the South surrendered, that flag continued to live.

It was dead. It was frozen in time. All of its hopes and dreams, all of its wants and needs were finished. It has no possibility to redeem itself. It's, you know, it's a time piece. It's a, you know, it's a time vault. It's stuck there. And nothing could ever become of that flag. Whereas the American flag, you know, are stars and stripes. You know, every day has a, opportunity to redeem itself to be better, to be stronger, to be more just, to be more equal, to be more fair. You know, it has... I don't know.

I'd push back on that. I'd push back on that. I think that the Dukes of Hazard or the Southern flag or the... What's the name? What do they call that flag? The Southern flag? What's the name of it? Confederate flag.

I think it's the Confederate Battle flag, right? Yeah. I don't see why it has... has to be dead. I mean, no ideas die. They just, they just don't have any energy behind that. But it's kind of like a sail. Once you begin to put wind behind a sale, the sail becomes alive. I mean, there's no reason why the Confederate flag couldn't be reborn. Those ideas could be reborn. In fact, they probably played out, you know, throughout generations and lifetimes and genres throughout, if I, if I wrote a story about the Confederate, the same way that Philip K. Dick wrote a book

about the Germans and the Japanese winning World War II, so too could I write a book about the Confederates winning against the Union. And then that flag would be brought back to life in some way, wouldn't it? In a fictional sense. In a fictional sense, yeah. Right. I mean, that flag has no force or effect. None? It's not recognized. It's not recognized. There's still people that fly it today. That's true. There are people, individuals that have different ideologies that fly, that flag, for sure. But that flag has no power. You can't go to, you know, you can't wage war, you know, with that flag. It's a flag without a nation.

Hmm. There's, there's, it's not recognized by any other country on Earth as being a legitimate flag. That is a representation of an independent state. The flag is dead. Yeah. And a bunch of people, you know, maybe just dormant. You can't fantasize. Yeah.

I mean, they, dormant, it's dead. To me, dead means you can never come back to life. It'll never come back to life. Ever? Ever. I don't know. I could see situations where, you know, like, I think it's plausible. I think you get in trouble when you say never.

And I would agree with you that it's very unlikely for the South or that flag to be risen and have people fight behind it. But there are, you know, groups that are trying to, like you said, there's individuals that believe in it. And if you look at an individual like spark, all you need is the right tender to light that spark on fire. You don't think there's any possible way there could be some civil war today and the South would come back. I don't think that would be a force, but there's a lot to talk about civil war right now. And if that's the case, if there's talk about civil war, wouldn't, isn't it possible that people would unite, under that flag? Oh, I'm sure some would.

You know, I don't need that flag, but they would get crushed immediately. No, it'd be like, you know, it's the United States of America waging war against Louisiana. What are the chances? But like, who are you taking, George? Well, it depends on what side the army backed.

What's that? What's that? I didn't say anything. I think it, I think, I think it depends on what side the military order to take. you know like the military has sworn

to protect and to uphold the constitution of the United States of America yeah yeah but I don't know how I mean do you think that they're doing a good job at that that's a whole other story I mean that's a whole not

I don't I don't know if they are you know I mean that's that's I mean, I think they are. You know, I mean, I thought it was very powerful that after, you know, the election of the election loss of Donald Trump in 2020, and there was talk of declaring martial law and having the military run another election that, you know, would be more favorable to the guy who blatantly lost it, that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mike Millie came out and gave a pretty powerful statement. about the military's role, you know, within the United States of America and what they swear their allegiance to, and that is to a document and not a person. And that militaries have no business interfering or conducting or, you know, refereeing elections. That was pretty powerful, you know, as somebody who, you know, as somebody who, you know, as somebody who,

who, you know, like, who I care about the Constitution. And having him say that, you know, the highest ranking, underneath the president, the highest ranking military official in America in the United States, it was good to hear. You know, it was a clear separation between politics and military, and he was very blunt in the way that he said it. I appreciated it. Yeah.

It's interesting because it's, you know, that could be if that's the one guy that's standing between. You know what? There was a book written by, gosh, darn it. Of course, I'm going to blank on it, but it's called War is a Racket. And it was written by Smedley Butler, who was a four-star general back in, gosh, man, probably the 20s. And back in the 20s, he had retired. I think it was the 20s. if you're listening, forgive me if I'm crushing the dates here.

But Smedley Butler wrote a book called War as a Rackett. And in that book, he spoke about the U.S. military being the ground forces for the large multinational corporations. And when he came back, he wrote this book explaining that. And in the book, he says that he was pulled aside by large corporate interests and asked to take his leadership and take over the government on behalf of the corporations. Because he had done such good work for the corporations in South America for United Fruit Company, that they were sure he was the guy that could take over America and, you know,

lead sort of a fascist regime. And so it seems to me that, you know, we're, we're, we're, We're always in danger of that. We're always in danger of, we're always in danger of greed and selfishness and fascism. In fact, I think it was Noam Chomsky who said all nations are fascists. It just depends on which agree, to which degree they are fascist. You know, and if you look at whether it's the Republicans or the Democrats, they always seem to be favoring a corporate interest. You know, and it seems like that all the way through the, you know, it just seems like it runs, it runs all the way through the different different there. What would your take on that?

What should you take about, you know, governments, military, and fascism, and there seems to be a pattern there. Want to talk to me about fascism? Yeah, I mean, we could throw it out there. I mean, what do you think? governments and military and fascism wow that's a big one it's huge right um you know i mean i agree with noam chomsky you know and i'm trying to remember what book that was from um you know there there there are you know there there are pieces of fascism there there's pieces of everything within our government and all governments, you know, there's fascism in this

country, there's socialism in this country, you know, there's authoritarian in this country. There's a lot of pieces of a lot of different things. And, you know, I think the military, which is kind of interesting about our military, and I think Mike Millie summed it up best when he said, we're the only country in the world that pledged allegiance to a doctorate and not a government or a, you know, a person, a single individual or, you know, and so I think that work there was kind of the genius or founding others. And one of the guard rails to protect us, which is through using, you know, the military as a way to, you know, to, you know, to become a fascist state.

But for all different ways, we're attempting it right now in this country. There's a lot of talk about populist. You know, like there's this populist workers movement in America that, you know, over the last probably six, seven years has been growing and it's peaked out, but it was pretty, it was pretty, strong a few years ago.

To me, that's, you know, populism is always a good pathway to fascism or authoritarianism or, you know, a dictatorship or communism. And then, you know, in a populist movement, you know, authoritarian, you know, fascism comes from the top down, you know. it's replacing all the people in power with people who've never experienced power and then, you know, basically using the, you know, the writings of the Constitution of the the the the um the Constitution itself as a way to then control people through, you know, through a more fascist state. it's like Hitler right Hitler was a social democrat who didn't have the you know

who didn't have the um um national social of Germans national social well see he was a social democrat and then a national socialist

who didn't who didn't have the you know the majority of Germans standing behind him when he seized power and then used, you know, the, basically the tools that were already in place in the, within Germany, and then became a nationalist socialist. And, you know, and promised people, you know, in a sinking economy and, you know, skyrocketing unemployment, still found a way to appease people by setting up social programs that,

you know, like daycare and education and and labor and all the rest of those things. But he did it through populism, right? There was this idea of, you know, that the working class people, you know, should be running the country and not the what he called the bourgeoisie, you know, needed to be replaced and the proletariat's need to be, you know, running the country. And so you just kind of see in that happen around the world right now, right? I mean, they don't use Marxist terms. They don't use, you know, they don't use fascist terminology,

but they're using their own brand of terminology and their own brands of symbolism to promote populist movements around the world, you know, to overthrow democracies and to overthrow, grow, you know, republics. Yeah. I think it's a fascinating time to be alive. I really think that, you know, we're on the cusp of changing our forms. You know, and there's all this talk about socialism or there's all this talk about, you know, capitalism.

And my idea of these two forces are like, we're this rocket ship in the middle. And on one side you have capitalism and on one side you have socialism. And they're like the scaffolding of the rocket. And both of them are going to fall away. And we are going to emerge as something better. You know, you see China with a sort of state-run capitalism. And you see in the United States, you have both sides flirting with extremism. You have the left and Antiva, you know, flirting with this idea of socialism and this idea of a basic income, which

you know, I don't, I'm on the fence. I kind of think a social or a basic income for people would be a good thing, you know, and I don't thoroughly, you know, ascribe to the idea that if you give people money, they become fat and lazy and dumb. Like, I don't, I mean, it seems to work pretty well for the banking industry. It seems pretty, seems to work pretty well to privatize all the profits and socialize all the law, socialize all the losses if in fact you're on the upper 1%. Like those guys seem to be doing pretty well.

And they have taken this idea of privatizing profits and socializing losses. But yet when the people on the bottom ask for that, they go, oh, no, no, no, you can't have that. That never works. But I think we're moving into something different. And I don't think we've got to have the words to describe it, but I can see it emerging. You know, I can see this new sort of maybe there's words to describe. but Paul, maybe it's called Tara Libre. Yeah, except for the basic income being provided by who?

Yeah, that's, that's, I think that that is, you know, the ideas of people on the top right now is like, we've got to pay these people on the bottom. But the Terra Libre project, according to Ben, is, you know, you don't necessarily need that income from people. What you need is a fair structure where people can embrace and empower. power one another. Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, there's other ways to go about a basic income. How about affordable health care or free health care? You know, I mean, that saves people money.

So instead of like giving them, you know, actual cash into their bank account, you're taking away financial burden. How about, you know, how about making housing more affordable? I mean, there's, there's mechanisms in place that can be manipulated to achieve some of these goals without just, you know, putting everybody on the dole. You know, I think there. Let me push back on that. Yeah.

Yeah, go ahead. Okay, so, you know, I agree with you. I think that there are. And this is just sort of a, you know, a fact-finding mission. But it seems like it's a complex system. So, you know, we talk about giving free health care. So, like, how do you do that, though? Like, how do you give free health care without compromising the,

quality of health care, in your opinion? Well, I mean, so you get what you pay for, right? And I think if you could easily do that, if the federal government spent money on health care like they do in the military, we would have free health care for everybody in America, no matter how old you were, no matter if you had already had a preexisting condition, no matter what, it would be by far the greatest health care in the history of the world.

But we choose not to do that. choose to spend that money on financing wars. We choose to spend that money on, you know, on the military industrial complex in America. We choose to spend that money subsidizing, you know, MG, big business. You know, the wealthy and the elite have done a pretty good job over the last couple hundred years. at making sure that the government works for them first and foremost before it works for anybody else. And so we can change those things, right?

Like if we put even like, you know, if we added another 10 or 15% from the defense budget, the military budget into education into this country, then we wouldn't be in the position that we are globally as far as education ranking. If we did that with health care, we could put a huge dent into not only how many people get covered free with health care, but the quality of that free health care as well. You know, that's always been the argument between like the insurance companies, you know, and the government and the wealthy, you know, is that, oh, if you make health care free, then the quality of health care is going down. because of an open and free market and competition and these soaring healthcare prices,

which allows us to take that money and dump it into research, you know, to make, you know, to make better drugs or to come up a better physical therapy or new, you know, ways of treating different types of diseases or injuries or whatever it may be. And that's true. They're right in the sense that it takes money to do all that. They just want you to think that the money has to come. from you and not from the government. Well, yeah, I agree.

I think in an actuality, I think it's the same thing. I was talking to Ben about this a while back. And it seems to me that the military industrial complex, DARPA, the CIA, all these giant entities, it used to be that you as the taxpayer, your money went to fund this research. Your money went to the colleges and you funded medical research. You funded technological research. You funded all these things. And then when the fruits of your labor,

when the fruits of that research came to fruition, and we got a new technological instrument, or we got better industries, then the people were rewarded for the money that they invested into that research. But what happened was all of a sudden, this research that was done by the taxpayers' money through DARPA,

through the military industrial complex, through the colleges, all of a sudden, as soon as they came up with something profitable, then that product was sold or turned into a private company and then sold back to the people. So it's like we paid for it twice. We paid for the research. We paid for the grants. We paid for all the doctors. We paid for everything to be done.

And as soon as a product or service was made out of it, it was turned into a private company and sold back to us. And that can only happen so many times before the people become, you know, the cash cow no longer has the money to invest. And all those profits are soaked right to the top. And I think that that's why we're in the situation we're in now. There's no doubt in my mind that we could have free education, we could have free health care, we could have better services. You know, we could have all these things if we just got rid of some of the parasites, some of these middlemen, some of these private international business. businesses that have paid lobbyists to write the laws that allows them to do it. And I think that that's that's kind of where we're at right now.

It seems to me that there's one group of people saying, look, if we just get back to capitalism, get away from this crony capitalism, then we can go back to making our country function in a way that works for everyone. And this other group is like, no, it's too corrupt. We'll never get back there. Those are good ideas, but you'll never get there. we've got to tear it down. And I think what gives me a voice or it gives me or sets my heart a light a little bit

is that if you look at that argument, both sides want the same thing. Both sides want better communities. Both sides want better schools. I don't care if you're red or you're blue or you're Trump or you're Biden. When it comes down to it, both people want the system we have to be better. And I just think if we could start from there, if we could start with some common ground, then we could start to begin to build systems that work for everybody. What do you think? Yeah.

I mean, I agree with you. You know, but it's just like, it's, I don't know, when I look at it, I just see like a mess upon mess, upon mess, upon mess. You know, and getting to the bottom of that mess. Well, I think because of laws, I think, you know, interpretation of laws. Yep. You know, I think that, you know, it's, I think that, you know, how can I put it? This, you know, we live in a society where people have a basic understanding of language, where people have a basic understanding of terms.

And there are, you know, there are rebel rousers out there. that are trying to, you know, change definitions and change terms to create arguments to kind of convoluted, you know, the, you know, what's happening in America. And I'm talking about like when it comes to health care, when it comes to the military or any of these different things where the conversations, like agreeing upon facts and, and, I mean, these are the fights that happen every day. the, you know, in the U.S. Supreme Court, it's about interpretation, right? It's about understanding what the laws are. And so I think so long as we have, you know, everything that has been ever written that's in the law or has been legislated, you know, is up for interpretation, then I think we're always going to have these types of problems, unless we can get to a place back to a place where we can all say, yeah, like, I understand what you mean when you say that. And I'm not going to complicate. I'm not going to try to fuck it all up. Because we all can. You're a good debater. And that's part of the problem.

Is there some really good debaters out there? Right? And so, you know, when you put a bunch of good debaters in a room that they'll just pick apart anything, like, you know what I mean? Like, they can basically make a point, you know, out of ridiculousness.

And so we have to get back to, like, like just back to the basics, I think. And really start looking at, like, you know, laws and rules and regulations and all of these different things. And, you know, and some of these things, George, like laws that have been on the books for a long time that have never been revisited in 50, 60 years are so outdated. They're so, you know, they have nothing to do with, you know, society today. And so that's what I mean by like, you know, it's just mess upon mess upon mess, you know,

until you get a group of people that are willing to work together as one and put a whatever personal thoughts or feelings or ambitions that they may have about what it takes to, you know, be involved in government and to run a country. And so you can get them all to agree, then you're, we're going to continue, you know, doing what we're doing. It's like, why is, why are we arguing about, like, you know, abortion in this country? It's so ridiculous. Why are we arguing about, you know, still having racial issues and arguing about race in this

country and religion and all these things because you know why because that's all that's left and it's the things that are you know that are always going to be there and things that people know that there will never be an agreement upon because we've legislated and freaking you know written laws and worked out a lot a lot of shit but now we're down to some nitty-gritty stuff that's going to stop people from communicating with each other and stop people from coming together to visit, to revisit some of the laws and some of the regulations that we have in place that are inhibiting people from thriving. That's why. So I agree with a lot of that. What I would push back on is this idea that that's all that's left. I think I feel, it seems so petty to me. And, you know,

I know a lot of different people that I really care about it. You know, when I get to have discussions with you or our friend Scott over here or Ben or Ranga or Kevin or all these people that were lucky enough to to have conversations with some of the people in our family. Even the people I don't agree with. I don't necessarily think they're petty. But it seems like that which we fight over is so petty. And I think that we're suffering from a lack of inspiration and a lack of imagination. And it's sad to me because it seems to me that when we're suffering.

we come together is when the towers are attacked. When we come together is when there is a crisis, sometimes manufactured, sometimes not manufactured. And I guess on my darker days, I'm wondering if, on my darker days, I think to myself, that's the only way we're going to be brought together is through some huge crisis. And then, you know, you look at something like COVID that came. You could argue that COVID. it could have been something that unified everybody. And in fact, you know, a lot of times it's the invisible enemies that are used to bring people together, whether it's communism or whether it's terrorism or it's racism, you know,

pick your ism. But it seems to be these invisible animals, these invisible tragedies that scare people into moving in a direction. And they work a lot of times. A lot of times those do, they do gout. Calvinize people, maybe not for the best, because I don't think, you know, I think you're, you're famous for saying people that live in fear tend to make bad decisions and these isms and these things around us tend to symbolize a group of people living in fear. What about the, like why can't we? It seems to me what would galvanize the United States of America is a project that made all of us see ourselves in a better light.

You know, if we had something to look forward to, if we had something to, something to love, something to look forward to and something to be proud of, I think that that's the foundation to move any nation state forward. But there's too much money involved in breaking things up. You know, in that movie Pretty Woman where she dates Richard Gere and all that guy does is he buys companies and breaks them up and sells them. We're no longer about building stuff. We're about breaking stuff down. So maybe if we could find a common goal to move towards. And I think that that's what global warming is. I think that that is what climate change is.

I think that that's what space is. These are giant ideas that are made to bring people together. It's unfortunate that a lot of the parts of them are bullshit, but that's the idea behind these giant ideas. What do you think? I mean, it sounds good, but you know, you got to remember there's like 30% of the population that doesn't believe in those things that you think would unite us like science and global warming and all the rest of that stuff. That's and that's what I'm talking about, right? Like it's it's it's like facts are no longer facts that your facts or my facts and then we can argue about, you know, whose facts are right. and then and then and then because most Americans don't know how to debate

but don't know what a real argument actually looks like a productive one then you know then it just turns into mudsling and and bullshit and then people walk away pissed off and then like hey I'm right and the other person's like no I'm right and that's how it ends right not that's you know that's to me that's that's what I'm talking about is like We're so like, and the problem is, and I've said this, you know, a hundred times to you, man, is that people don't know how to recognize when, you know, people are using bullshit arguments on them. And so they may actually accept that what this person just said them, which could be completely absurd, you know, as being a relative part of this debate that they're having, you know. And so, yeah, I get it.

Like, you know, I mean, COVID and all the rest of these things, I think like someone's got to freaking drop a bomb on us to really bring us together. Yeah, I don't think any of that stuff is, you know, because like I said before, man, because you got a pretty large piece of the population here that just doesn't believe in any of that shit. Not because, you know, they actually have a better explanation as to why these things happen it's just because they just don't believe they reject it that's a problem you know i i think

that i think we could change it around like one thing people do love to do is yell at each other people like to to win in an argument people like that and i think we can leverage that i think that we could start off um you know what if we had like a if a UFC of debating like think about it like you could have Like in my town of Millalani, there's all these like little places you can rent for birthdays or, you know, if you can do a show or something like that, like a little auditorium. I think you could start a debate circuit in your, in your city. Once you, once you won that debate, and like you can make it good. You can make it really entertaining. You could sell churros and sell some beers.

You can make it an event. And you would have the best debaters in your city go up there and debate the top. the topics. And once it got good, you know, once it got good, you can move those people into the counties, move those people from the counties into the, you know, state. You have a statewide debate. You know, this probably sounds a lot like how our government was formed. We got away from it. But I think you could revive that. I think if you had, you know, I think we spoke about having Eric Dyson on there with Jordan Peterson. Like, I've seen that. debate, there's a series of debates in Canada. I forgot exactly what they're called, but they had a

tremendous debate. And I think people would tune in for that if we could just get, you know, I think people would tune in for that. And then people would start learning how to debate because they would watch their favorite debaters. They would learn about logical fallacies. That's a straw man. That's appeal to authority. That's an appeal to, you know, all these different things. I think you could have people tune into that. I think that's all we need is just, a reinvigorating course on debates. And if we had as much emphasis on debates as we do on, we just brought up another league. You know, maybe, maybe, maybe have a wet t-shirt contest in between the debaters. You know what I mean? Make it interesting. The American debate league of

America. Yeah, now you're talking, Paul. Tell me more about this American debate league. Well, I mean, look, like, you've talked about this before, and you, and, you know, and like three or four times you bring up Eric Dyson, yeah, because anybody would listen to, I like the, I would listen to Eric Dyson. I would listen to Eric Dyson, you know, read the phone book, right? Because the guy's just interesting. And he has, you get the, you get the mega guys to get their best guy. Watch the fight. And he's got, there's a certain cadence in the way that he talks. And, you know, so Eric Dyson is, but. But let me tell you what, you know, most people, 99.99% of them out there that actually probably know how to debate, they're not Eric Dyson. They're like Bankman Freed's girlfriend. What is up with that, Max, man? That is crazy. You know, it's like, it's like most people don't want to watch a bunch of nerds, you know, go up there and have debates. you know what are you going to be debating about and you're right and that's because you know

people like to yell at each other but that's not how to wait you win a debate but people enjoy that like it's i guess you know like if you wrapped it up with like what is what is dana white trying to do like the world's slapping contest like he wants to get people that are like you know slap each other in the face like that'd be interesting you seem slap his wife yeah so you have this debate and then like whoever lose you loses that round of the debate's got to stand there and hold some handles on a table and just take a smack from the guy that you're debating. Yeah, I would totally watch that. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, this guy is, you know.

But, and I think that's, you know, you'd have to do something like that in order to sell it to like, you know, I mean, the American public. What did our friend Ben say? Most Americans have a sixth grade education. Okay, well, that doesn't make for really good freaking TV. promotion debates you know if you think about it it's like oh you know guys are going to on Tuesday night at 10 p.m. to watch you and I debate or they're going to watch WWE wrestling. Yeah, well I think you've all day man.

WWE's awesome. I remember going as a little kid and watching like Bam Bam Bigelow and you know I but I think you did a good job of bringing the like Marion. those two things. Like someone to get smacked when they, if you use a logical fallacy, you get smacked. You know what I mean? Like you could bring up, even if you just brought up the white glove. Right.

And then so people would actually want to pay attention and learn about some of these logical fallacies because they'd be sitting there listening to somebody make an argument. And then at home they'd be like, ooh, he just read herring that thing big time. You know what you mean? And then sure enough, the red buzzer comes up like the gong from the gong show. you know an opponent gets to just rear back and just slash when I got across the person's face that'd be really interesting yeah that would be interesting you you would see people just bite their tongues all of a sudden people will back out you know you could have like it could take the place of the talk show you could have

you could have you could have lex freedman and conier west up there and every time conier west uh used a logical fallacy, Lex could smack him. There would be people that would sign up for that. And I think it would make tons of money. And you see, now you could have it, who would you have sponsor that? Like Kleenex or someone? Like you would get Kleenex to sponsor it because they'd people be crying? No, man.

Band-aid, you get Band-Aid to sponsor it because people get cut. Vaseline? You can ask people. You have a bunch of like, freaking some, like, you know, tax attorneys, you know, for all those freaking, you know, like, you know, call, call this guy, you know, Mark E. Freed for all of your, you know, for all your tax needs. If you know, the government after you, call Mark Fried, you know, like you would have to have that, a bunch of DUI lawyers, you know, those guys can sponsor it. That'd be great. Yeah, I think tons of people would sponsor that. I would

totally, I would watch that on pay-per-view. That would be great, man. You could have, and then you could debate, you know, depending on what the debate was about, if it was about drinking and driving, you know, then you could have, like, the car company sponsor it. You could have, like, Miller Light sponsor. You know, you could have.

Yeah. No, I mean, I think for something like that, you probably have, like, Lyft or Uber sponsor. You know what I mean? You don't want alcohol. company sponsoring freaking debates about alcohol and drunk driving, you know.

They're a better debater. You know, maybe they bring in like, you know, this brings us back to like, you know, the Greeks where you had softest, you know, you had Socrates that was all upset about sophistry and people coming in and learning how to argue just so that they can argue and win.

It kind of brings us back to those times. But you would definitely get to W.W.E. crowd involved in it if you could bring in like a controlled violence around it, right? And what's wrong with controlled violence, man? I think we could use some of that. Well, I mean, I think the WWE crowd could be also the biggest beneficiaries of learning how to debate. You know, like, yeah. You know, like a lot of like the WWE crowd, like, holy shit. What would you win? Like if you, if you, if you came. to this debate and if you use logical fallacies you got slapped like what would you win at the

end of the debate would there be like a would it be like a title fight and you would win like 10 grand or you know would you win like uh would it be more like of a old school um uh wheel of fortune where you could like pick different things or that's what i was win you know like like like a price is right like you know yeah for two to the bahamas yeah yeah And then you could, I would be epic. I think we're on to something here. Debating for those you just,

imagine like taking your kids on Thursdays to go watch a debate. And you come up to, like walk through the line, you can get some popcorn, you find your seat. And maybe there's, maybe it's like boxing because there's like five,

there's six debates. Like you have the undercard. You talk about maybe the top card would be like, citizens united you know that would be the that would be the top heavyweight fight of the night but along the way you have like um you know like some of the debates about um what is that thing called when you get into school if you're a minority but you're uh you're not a minority yeah you could have affirmative action or you could have these different things on the way up and so if you use a logical fallacy, the person, would a referee come in and blow a whistle and then you get time,

you get smacked? Like, I think that they would have to, you have to go to the judges. Okay, judges, was that a logical fallacy? And you get four judges over there and they all raise their red panel. And the other person slaps on a white glove and smack them. Like, I think that would work, man. I think a lot of people would enjoy that. I would totally watch that.

I totally watch that. Wouldn't you? I don't know if I would. Oh, you would. Why wouldn't you? I mean, it depends of what they were debating about. Okay, so we should make the community

get to vote on what the debate's about. Now you'd have to watch it. Yeah. Kids in the high schools could, like, they could come up with what it is. And you have to, it would be like hunger games because either someone in the community had to go in debate

or we went and chose somebody to debate. How about that? Put a little twist on it. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it's the debate topics would definitely be interesting, right? You'd have to make them really interesting,

like people, something that people cared about. And then, and then there would have to be some sort of, like, education and you'd need, you need, like, a Vanna White up there, you know? Yes, I agree.

You know, you need, you'd need, you need someone like that up there, and then you would need, like, who would host something like that? Ooh. You know, I mean, that's, that's the, thing. It's like.

Who would be? I think it Joe Rogan host it maybe. I don't think that guy. Okay, okay. Someone else. Someone who understood debate. I think who is like the most beautiful woman that would be perfect to host that? Can you think of like a really intelligent, beautiful woman that would be perfect to host it? I don't know.

Maybe you get Taylor Swift to host it. Oh my God. Is she smart? I don't even know anything about it. pretty intelligent to me. Really? Yeah, I think she is. Yeah, I've heard her talk a couple of times, but I like her. But she's kind of pop star.

Okay, so who else could we get? Scott, who would you get to? She is the epitome of pop star. Yeah. Yeah, she is the epitome of pop star. She is the epitome of pop star. You know, I don't know. I'm just trying to think if there's, you know,

like who out there understands the bait and a beautiful woman you know it's interesting and it depends on your taste man is what's her Laura Coates from CNN

look her up I don't I will I'll have to check Laura Coates she sounds like she's kind of lean in the left though you can't want to find someone partisan

she's trying to think outside the news industry maybe well I'm talking about like you know Like, you know, a beautiful woman who is, who's smart, right? True. You know, I mean, geez, who else?

Yeah, maybe somebody outside the news world. I mean, I just don't, I don't pay attention to, like, pop star. I know me neither. So I don't, I wouldn't really know, like, who's smart. It's like Taylor Swift, and I'll listen to her music. I don't think I've ever heard or say anything except for, like, I don't know, like, you know, like, you know, I want to thank my producers. and my, you know, and my crew for helping me make this beautiful album or whatever, you know.

I don't know. That's a tough one, you know, like you'd have to get somebody, you know. Like, I mean, there are definitely some, you know, the, you know, like, who's kind of nerdy, but sexy, smart. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I hardly spend any time watching television. So it's difficult for me to do that.

And when I think of beautiful women, the only woman I can think of is my wife. So, man. Yeah, is she standing right behind you? It's true. It's true. I guess I'm not the type of guy, you know? What are you going to do?

Hmm. I don't know. But, I mean, so you find somebody like that, right? Yeah. And then, you know, you got to have like a handsome guy too. You know what I'm saying? That are like, sure. They're in there.

You know, and they're debating, you know, and maybe they represent sides. And maybe each week they pick a different side to represent. Yeah. I like that. And then, you know, and then maybe you hope, you know, a handful of people tune in and watch. You know, it's debates. Yeah. It's debates.

It's like, you know. And it has, I mean, it would have real consequences. Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, like, it's, it's debates with like, you know, yeah, with that thing Dana White's trying to start with people slapping each other. Yeah. And would you go in rounds? Would they debate like three minutes and there could be three people, you could get slapped within that three minutes, like three times?

Or would it be at the end of a round, you would get three slaps? Well, then, so, like, can you bow out? you know like I think you'd have to be able to like throwing the towel like boxing yeah you'd have to be able to walk away and then like you but then what are you teaching people

you're teaching people like man this guy was right more often than he was wrong well I think the button arguments but he bowed out and lost because he couldn't take it back in the face 10 times you know well I think that when you bow out there's a button and like you know how like

when you were little and your cousin beat you up or something you had to say uncle I think if you're in a debate and you're using logical fallacies but you don't want to get slapped, then you have to hit the button and say, I'm a dummy, I'm a dummy. You have to do it three times.

And now everybody knows that you're a dummy. Well, let's, I mean, let's... I'm a dummy, I'm a dummy, I'm a dummy. Here's the problem is I think a lot of people who would be up there and not understanding, like, you know, real debate and would be doing, like, you know, using some of those poor forms of communication. And they'd be getting slapped all the time,

but maybe they could just take it. And then, you know, then like, The guy who actually knows how to debate, maybe he's a little bit nerdy. You know, and he gets slapped once and he's out. He clearly won the debate or was winning the debate, but he just didn't, he took one smack on the face from this other guy, and that was all he was willing to do, and he bowed out. You know, so what are you teaching people? You're teaching people like, oh, just hang in there. You know what I mean?

Like might is right. And, you know, and that's how you want to debate. You know, and then pretty soon you got kids on the plate school. you know, like parents are getting called up because, you know, little Johnny, you know, and little Mikey were playing this little debate game that they saw their parents watch on TV the night before and they're out there smacking each other in the face.

You know, I mean... As long as they're learning about logical fallacies. Because if you don't commit any logical fallacies, you're never going to get hit. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. But then they're also, you know,

but yeah, I guess, but it's a really harsh way to kind of, I mean, you know, maybe there's something, you know, I don't know, electrical shock or something. I don't know. Okay, but okay, so then at the end, though, I think what we're missing, like, how do you win? Like, you would have to win by applause or, you know what they do in these other debates that I saw is like when people come in, they say who, like they say, raise your hand if you're on this side. Raise your hand if you're on this side. Raise your hand if you're undecided.

and then they take that group of people that are undecided. And then at the end of the debate, they tally it all up and say, 54% of people now believe this. And they figure out that the debate swung the undecided group over to this side. So that's how you would win. So you could theoretically take like four slaps to the face. And as long as you didn't bow out and the crowd voted for you at the end, then you won the debate.

Right. But the problem is, it's like I said before. Like some guy could be using all types of ridiculous arguments and been slap 10 times, but he's just eating the slaps. He doesn't care, right? He's just like, I'll give me another slap. I'm going to eat it, you know?

And then the other guy fucks up once, right? He doesn't want to eat the slaps, right? He took that slap and that's it for him. He's bowing out. Well, you know, after one slap he's done, but he clearly was winning the argument, right? But who's standing there is the victor? The guy who took 10 slaps to the face, who just ate them all and didn't care.

You know, so now you have a winner. I guess the light works. I think it's a great way. Like, sometimes life works like that. You know what I mean? Sometimes life works like that. That's how it works. Yeah, but now you just defeated the whole purpose of this thing, George.

Like, what are you teaching people? Now you're messaging of like, hey, we're going to use your faith. And we're going to, yeah, we're going to get that. So that's like, there's many other ways you can teach people about life. than actually trying to, you know, you're kind of undermining, you know, this idea. No, because that would only happen a few times. Like, most people, that wouldn't happen most times. Only a few times would that happen. And when it does happen, it's like, it's like the Romans that were like, let them live. Let them live. He took five slaps to the face and he had some funny stuff. Let them live.

I don't know. Maybe. I think it works. I don't know. Maybe for every time that the other guy has to take a slap to the face that the guy giving the slap, maybe he gets to, like, if he, you know, now he's got a, maybe he's got a, you know, like there's only a degree. Like, the guy can only wear back, you know, like eight inches from his face and slap as hard as he can. You know what I mean? Because, you know, he's losing. You know what I mean? Or the guy's so far ahead that, you know, like, maybe he could earn, he can earn a helmet. How do you earn a helmet? by slapping the other guy 10 times, right? It's like,

making good points allows you to buy protective gear? Yeah, Wins also allow you to put on protective gear. Like, or you have, you could limit the amount, the guy can rear, he slaps you,

you know what I mean? So it's like, you know, like, so the first round, like if you fuck up one time, right, so the first person to fuck up,

you know what I mean, that person's kind of fucked because you can just rear back and just bam. But at the same time, like I got the rear all the way back and smack the shit out of this guy. and like if I lose if I fuck up next

then you know like I could actually put on like a head sock to kind of soften the blow a little bit you know but if I if if if I if I get to slap this guy twice then maybe I get a head sock and on top of that the guy if you know if I end up making a mistake you know now I have a head sock and the next thing that I won is that the guy can't reach back from my cheek more than 12 inches before he slaps me.

So he can only get so much force, right? Just like, you know what I'm saying? So now I got a head sock on and this guy is, you know. But then, but then now, now because he got you, right? And you, you had to take one with a head sock on and 12 inches of rearing back from your cheek. That, you know, now I, you know, like now you're inhibited in some. way so I get to put on the head sock next time or something you know what I mean like you could have it you know so you know if it's equal people are smacking each other and it's funny and they're kind of

getting her but they're not really you know it's going to reward the person who is actually winning the debate yeah and it just came to my mind like it would be a really dumb thing to put a helmet on because a helmet doesn't even protect your face you know what I mean so like if you put a helmet in a slap fight it wouldn't really help you but that's the first thing I thought I'm like I'd get a helmet and I'm like that'd be the dumbest thing you possibly do

because man it's what what if like your chair automatically like when you were wrong like your chair came forward and like you leaned in further that way the guy could get like a better smack at you too that would be a pretty good one

yeah you know um I think it's all kinds of I mean, people make up these game shows, bro. And that's what it's turning into, right? It is. I know. We just kind of went off the rails, but that was fun.

Yeah, but pretty soon, you know, like the debate thing is, is not even, no one's going to care about that anymore. People are just going to tune in to watch people, you know, slap the shit out of each other. Right. You know, which I mean, that's interesting. We kind of lost it. And if you, you know, and if you just taught people just a little bit of something every night,

then I guess that's worth something, right? Yeah. It sucks that we have to see, this is exactly what happens. Like it starts off at a good idea and then it just turns into like violence and debauchery. Like that's the same thing that happens with our, like you can see in that conversation we just had there, how a good idea slowly gets perverted into something where people would tune into it. You know, it doesn't have to be that way. but that stuff makes it much more entertaining.

And I think that that could be a problem for the humankind is the fact that, you know, it's like, it's like that movie Gladiator. Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? Like it seems to us, like we have to like dial it up. You know, the same thing with drugs. Like everyone wants maximum strength, you know, like give me the drug that'll kill me and then just back it off a little bit.

Like we want the maximum on there. Maybe it's human nature that makes us argumentative. Maybe it's human nature that makes us almost ungovernable. And maybe this idea of us being ungovernable is the thing that's beautiful about us. Well, I mean, you know, this is the country where there's a lot of emphasis put on to the individual, you know, where it's like the individual before the community. Right. And so, you know, when you have a system set up like that, then you're asking for confrontation. you know we're yeah the west is built on that yeah there's not a lot of countries out there that are like

that right where it's you know most most places that i've been to are community first you know it's community first and the individual comes second but you know and in the united states of america there's a huge emphasis you know and it's in you know that the individual you know individual you know individual liberties individual freedoms whatever you want to call them you know are you know are what's more important but isn't there something beautiful about that about rugged individualism isn't there something beautiful about the the guy or the woman that can go out and make their own way and create a life worth living for themselves like isn't that i mean maybe i'm romanticizing it but I like to think that I'm an individual that doesn't everybody needs help and you're probably better with a team

However, all or at least in the West we fantasize about being the one person that can go out there and make it happen and it's in our stories It's in our poems. It's celebrated and it is uniquely Western this idea of the individual going out and making their own way You know, and I can't help but think it's, it's beautiful in a way and it's, it's something to aspire to. And I think maybe the argument against, or that gets put out there sometimes against community is that, you know, you, if you're just part of the community, if you're just part of this team, then you never have the chance of rising above everyone. What do you think? I mean, you know, I don't know how important rising above everyone else. Being the best. You've got to be the best, Paul.

Well, you can. You're the best beekeeper out there. And it's, but it's always, it's always been like that even within community first societies, right? But it's within the- I don't know. I've never lived in one. It works within the confines or within the rules of the community, you know. Like, there's nothing wrong with being the best warrior.

right? Because it's a benefit for the community, you know, but there's something wrong, you know, with being the guy who's stacked up, you know, whatever currency that a, that a, that a society is using, you know, why everybody else is suffering around them. That's, that's not operating within the con, you know, within the, within the, you know, the rules and the parameters of actually being part of a community-based society. You know, so in some cases, yeah, it's great to be the best. You know, it's good if you're, if what you're doing at the very highest level, you know, not only benefits you, but benefits the people around you, then that's good. But if what you're doing the highest level is taking away from the people around you, then that's not a good thing. Okay, that's the problem. Like when you look at the leaders today, yeah, go ahead.

I'm sorry. And we live in a society where that's very much accepted, right? Where like it's so long as you're doing, you know, good for yourself, it doesn't matter who around you you're taking from or, you know, you know, you're lessening the quality of life of the people around you. And sometimes those people, your immediate family. And that's still accepted in this country. And that even accepted is.

It's true for every American, but it could be true. you know, because, you know, and to a pretty large extent, it is socially acceptable to be that way. You know, in some ways it makes me think like, you know, the corporate structure has taken over the family. And here's why that's a problem. Like the warrior in the hunter and gatherer tribe, he gets the big piece of meat and he gets the most beautiful girl

because he provides something that is necessary. that is a necessity for the group. He's looked up to. He's idolized because he provides so much for the group. When you look at a Wall Street trader, they don't provide anything except for immediate family in themselves. The reward system we have put in place, and mainly because of money,

mainly because we idolize money or we fetishize money so much. But the people in leadership positions today, they no longer provide for the community. They provide only for themselves. So maybe it's just the structure. You know, maybe if we got back to idolizing the people that do the most of the community, maybe if the reward system rewarded those who did the best for the community, the world in which we live would become better. Yeah, but I think the problem is, is there's such a large portion of Americans who feel like they're standing at the edge of the cliff. And all it would take is just a little nudge,

and they're going to, you know, fall into the abyss of freaking homelessness, you know, and foodlessness. And so, you know, so long as, as Americans are, like, teetering between feast and famine, they're always going to, they're always going to choose feast. So, you know, it's like, it's like we've created, you know, a society where, you know, there's not a lot of middle ground anymore. you know, the middle class is being eroded away, you know, the gap between the poor and the wealthy continues to grow. The amount of wealth that's consolidated within the top 1% of the wealthiest

people in this country, you know, outweighs everybody in the bottom, you know, 90% by, I figure what the number is. It's something like, you know, 100 fold. And so we live in a society where, where people think that at any moment, due to illness, you know, due to unemployment, due to the lack of housing where they could end up on the street. And so we create a desperate society. And so what we ask of our leaders is to be like, you know, it's really tempting. I understand it that you want to take all this money from special interest groups, but we're telling you not to do it. Well, it's hard for them not to do it. You know, when they're like, what's the alternative?

you know, especially for like a politician. Like you're subject to the fickle will of the American voter. You could be doing a great job. Fuck up once and you're out. And then what? You know, if you were a business owner and you had to turn that business over to somebody else or you had to sell that business so you can pursue your, you know, political ambitions, which may be solely to serve your community.

You know, somebody comes out, makes a couple tweets about you that may or may not be true. they gain some momentum in your district. And next thing you know, you're freaking out of the job. And so people are going to take that money. You know, because the windfalls are real. Like the whole, the whole freaking system is, you know, doesn't really support people who are out there that just want to do the good thing. Those days are, those days are dwindling, man.

Yeah, I think that the system actually calls. You know, so what do you do? Like, you know, stuff that I was talking about. Like, you know, I don't think, I don't think we should be out there, like, writing checks for Americans. You know, I think that's kind of crazy. Yeah, I think people should get up and go to work for it. But let's try to bring down the cost of living or let's provide some service, some basic human services. I feel like if people are, if people are health.

healthy, right? They're going to be more productive. It's proven. And people don't got to worry about like people out there that work 40, 50 years of their life and retire and make a nice little nest egg only to get sick and then turn all that money over to the insurance companies. Like that's a tragedy. Like no one should, no one should no one should be facing that. And then so with stories out there like that and those stories are real, you know, with those things happening that's in the back of people. minds. So when some politician gets, you know, approached by a lobbyist or someone who's wanted to throw some money at their campaign to kind of ensure that they're going to be, help ensure that they'll be reelected because it takes money to be in politics, you know, they're going to take that. They're going to take that because we live in a desperate society. Take the desperation away and a lot of problems go away.

Yeah. And I think that that desperateness is something that is preached to us, you know, the same way that if you have a dog and you put him on a leash and for 10 years, he just runs to the edge of the lawn, and you take that leash off of him, he'll just run to the end of the, end of the lawn. You know, I think that we become habit. It becomes a habit, you know, it becomes this. I think a lot of what we have right now is a form of false scarcity. You know, we have so much.

We have so much. We can help out so many people, but yet so many people fall into the cracks and so few win. There's there just seems, like you said, when he comes to the widening divide of people, like the wealth gap is continuing and continuing. And I read a really good book by Thomas Pickety and it's called Capital. And he talks about capital from as far back as like the early middle ages. And what he says is that capital, be it human capital or be it monetary capital, any form of capital, it has two states.

And throughout history, and the book is like a tone, man. It's like 1500 pages. It's really well done for people who are listening. The book's called Capital by Thomas Pickety. And in that book, what he says is the natural state of capital rises is in two classes. There's all of it up here and none of it down here. This idea of having a middle class is such a blip in the world of government and humankind. Like, it doesn't happen.

And what we have saw over the last, you know, 300 years is this weird state where all of a sudden there was this middle class. And he goes through history and he goes, there's never a middle class. This thing that we have seen is an anomaly, and it's going away. So what you're going to continue to see moving forward is the natural state of capital, and that is an incredibly wealthy class and a peasant class. And that's how society works. The idea of a middle class is an anomaly. It's going away.

You know, when I read it, I was like, oh, man, this is, it was really depressing because he laid everything out so well. And he had all these graphs and, you know, mark down all these barometer. and parameters and I'm like oh dude this is a very depressing book and I for a while I set it down I'm like that this guy's what the fuck he's talking about but the more that I read the book and the more that I forced myself to finish him the more that I realize this guy knows exactly what he's talking about and he has documented this thing so well he may not be able to predict the future but if we look at the past and we say the best way to you know to to identify what's coming in the future is to look at past trends

this guy nailed it. It just seems like it's playing out. You can see that there's not really the will to create these programs to have the middle class stay there. And that's where the money is. The money's in the middle class. And it's going to be, it just seems like a pond that's drying up. What do you think? I mean, I kind of think that there's been, I mean, if you look at language,

there's always been words to describe, you know, middle class. So I think it's been around. You know, I think, you know, I think it's taking different forms, you know, over the centuries. You know, and I was talking about earlier, about the bourgeoisie. Well, that's, you know, that's French. And it's a, it's a, basically, you know, Marx used it as, you know, in a Marxist way, it's an aristocratic.

somebody with power but in you know the french described as being a landowner more of a middle class type person right so it's always been there's always been a middle class um but what about like what about like in roman times like that's only like 300 years like you know if you look at something like epochs you know and it seems like royalty was always something like the hawaians had a royal family the british had a royal family and when there's a royal family there's a royal family there's peasants. There's peasants and royals. I guess there's a merchant class, usually. But those are, those might be the bourgeoisie. I don't know. I kind of cut you off there, but carry on. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think the middle class has taken different forms, you know,

and depending on, you know, the time in history and, and the nation state, I think it's, you know, has been clearly defined middle class, but, you know, not like to the extent that FDR created. You know, and I mean, I think that's where it is. I think there's got to be a middle. You know, I don't think there can just be wealthy people and poor people. That's not going to work out. I mean, that's what's happening now. And you're seeing this rise of homelessness, you know, across the country, you know, over the last. shoot, I don't know, even like 20 years, right?

Where people are just jumping off the hamster wheel, man. They don't want to do it anymore. And, of course, a lot of them are, you know, drug addicts and, you know, people on the streets that have mental issues. But there are a lot of people out there, you know, van life people, you know, camp life people that are just like, we're done. Like, I can't, I can't work 16 hours a day for a house that I never get to see in a family I never get to enjoy. You know, just, I mean, all I'm doing is just working to pay for bills. you know and maybe every once in a while you get a day off and so I think you know I think you know we need to get to a back to a place where like I mean this is the basic American dream like most people I talk to is like hey man I just want to own my own home I'd like to put my kids through college if they choose to go and I like to take a vacation every once in a while it's not a lot to ask but those basic goals that people in this country enjoy it up until you know until about the 19th into the 90s into the 2000s, you know, those, those basic goals are becoming harder and harder

to obtain. And that's a problem. Yeah. Right. You know, for our country. It is. And I think we need to get back to, you know, get back to, like I said, I'm not, I'm not in favor of, you know, basic income, but, you know, there are, there are things we can do to help people. You know, especially like, I like the way that you put it, you know, through the use of grants and funding for the universities and private corporations where, you know, scientific advancement has been made, whether or industrial advancement has been made. And then those advancements are then, you know, privatized and turn around and sold back to the American people, you know, at whatever cost, you know. And so, like, if you think about that and you think about, you know, the playing field kind of being tilted to one direction. that I think it's only fair that we're doing some things to help you know I think you keep energy correct energy costs low you know um make housing yeah prices fair right and and kind of like start to

weed out like giant land barons you know although I'm trying to become one yeah yeah for the deep not for you know just rules for the small people You know, I mean, but then, you know, you do those things and then, you know, and, and look, like all, you know, like I said, it's like, that's all people want to do around the world, right? It's like, yeah, I just want to go to work. I like to have a job that pays me enough so I can afford to, you know, take a vacation every once in a while, you know, family of four or whatever, right? You know, I want to put my kids through college. and and and and and and i don't want to you know after i've worked my whole entire life i don't want to have to you know give a you know a health care insurance company all of my money should i you know something

happened to me that i didn't choose to happen but that seems like that basic dream just seems so far away right now for so many people you know that it's like you know what do What are we doing? You know, we're not, no people aren't living anymore. They're working. Yeah. I go back and forth because like I,

I see all that. And like I know, I have friends whose kids are having a real difficult time. You know, and I try to empathize with them and be like, fuck, like how are you supposed to afford a $700,000 house? How are you supposed to be out on your own

when you're 18 and see these things? things like but then on the flip side I'm like just do it the same way I did just fucking get some roommates and like struggle and fight and ask your parents and then have them tell you know a bunch of times and then realize they're not going to help you and then do it yourself find a way to do it yourself you can like I think that maybe one thing people are struggling from and there's an epidemic of is belief in themselves like you can do it, man. Like it's, I struggle with this too, but the truth is if you're willing to look for opportunities and you're willing to fucking work harder than you, then you know you can,

if you're willing to work really hard and you're willing to sacrifice and you're willing to look for opportunities, I think the world will reward you. You can make it. You can do almost anything if you have those three things and you know it's not fair. You know, it's not fair. You know, you know you can work hard and you know that you're willing to sacrifice. I think if you just do those things, I think you can make it anywhere. And I, it's not easy. It's, it's hard. And if it was easy, everybody would do it.

And on some level, I realize that life throws you curveballs that you don't deserve. Sometimes life throws you a fastball and it hits you right in the face and your nose starts bleeding and you fall to the ground. But if you get back up, you probably, you'll probably, you know, you'll probably, you know, not going to get hit with another one for a while, at least a few innings. And I think if people had that attitude, there's willing to go out there and say, I'm going to get up every time and you can throw me down. Maybe there's things you can't get up from, but if you have that attitude, I think you can win in life. You may not have the giant house

on the hill. But when it comes to Christmas, you get to put your arms around your wife and your kids and watch the fireworks and you have food in your fridge and a roof over your head and you realize you have everything you've ever needed. it. And I think that if that was the messaging, I think if more people believe that, then more people would live that and people would be better. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. You know, for the most part. I mean, that's I mean, life should be a struggle. You know, I mean, it shouldn't be easy. Yes. I agree. You know, I mean, that's that's, that's, you know, that's what your reward system is based on, right? Without a struggle, there really is no reward.

you know so without the lows there can't be the highs and without the highs there really can't be the lows you know and so that i mean that's that's what life is life is a series of ups and downs you know and in buddhist philosophy it's about taking the you know the peaks and the valleys and kind of pulling them out so the peaks aren't so high and yet the valleys aren't so low and then somewhere in the middle you can find peace right Yeah. Because at either end of the spectrum, you're at risk. And so, yeah, I mean, highs are great,

but to really, like, understand and put them into perspective with those highs are. And low suck. We know this. And I've talked about this, right? And you're living in the world of hell or hunger or animality. That's those are desperate to be in. And so you kind of want to be, if you possibly can, in the middle, right?

and working towards, you know, sustaining some of the higher worlds in life. But you always need that contrast. That's just the way it is. You know, but, you know, we get some real problems. And, you know, it's going to take smart people to fix them. See, and this kind of brings us back full circle to the idea of, you know, rugged individualism. And I think that's kind of how it got started is, like, you can give charity and you can help people,

but ultimately people have to help themselves. Like no, like we all know people that have done a lot of drugs and shit, I'm probably one of them. But the people that hit rock bottom, they never go get help until they decide they need to help. Or the people that are taken away to places to get help, they usually relapse more than the person that goes there by themselves.

Like you have to understand. I, not only do you have to understand that you need help, but you have to be willing to ask for it. And that's fucking hard to do. It sounds easy. It sounds really easy. Just go ask for help. Like, but pride's a motherfucker, man.

And people don't want to ask for help. But that's part of being. And sometimes I think that that's why we're here on this earth is that when you look at it, If you want to be dark about it or you want to go down these. Sometimes I do this. Like it's basically you move from one tragedy. You're either in a tragedy. You're going into a tragedy or you're coming out of a tragedy.

And the fucking happiness is the time in between those things when you're not in it. What are you going to do at that time? In the middle of that time where you're going to sit back and worry about, you know, woes me or you're going to sit back. be like this shit always happens to me or it's not fair you know or I can't do it because of this or are you going to be like fuck man I better figure some shit out and I hate where I'm I hate this life I'm in I don't want to continue to do this like I think that that's kind of what you know if you look at life like a giant school and you're constantly getting beat up or you're constantly moving from tragedy to tragedy what are you learning from the tragedy you're learning from the

tragedies you were just in. If you're not learning from the tragedy that you just went through, then you have to repeat it. It's like going to fifth grade. You've got to go through fifth grade until you pass it. You've got to keep going through the same tragedies in your life until you fix them. And congratulations, as soon as you fix that one, in three months it's going to be another one. It's not going to be the same one. Now you get to move on to a different one. That's the levels of people. I don't see if they're all tragedies. Yeah, I mean, I don't think they're all tragedies. I mean, I think there's different levels, right? No, you're right.

Yeah, you're right. Well, it goes to my point when you were saying, you know, about, you know, from moving from one, you know, you're moving from one world into the other world, right, that are extremes. And in the middle, there's what you called happiness. I described it as peace, right? And so that's in the middle. Yeah. And so to try to staying that is, you know, to me is like part of the goal in life. you know, is to find peace

and to, you know, and whether that's, you know, cutting out things in your life, you know, I've talked to people like, you know, like newly practiced Buddhist and I'm like, you know, if you sit in a field by yourself for a week, you're going to find peace.

If you detach from the world, you'll find peace. And people do that all the time, right? Some people call them meditation. Yeah. And, but it's, it's, it's, interactions with other people is what brings life's challenges, right? So instead of tragedies, I would use challenges. I like that. And so when you're moving in and out of challenges in life, hopefully you are learning, right? Because that's another Buddhist school that you want to be in

is the world of learning. And that's a good place to be. And, you know, it's, it's in those worlds where we can build the tools help hone the tools to be able to sustain higher levels of of life being but they all

begin with like making mistakes they all begin with you know fuck I've made a lot of mistakes and it took a long time for me to to really like to actually take those mistakes and turn them into wisdom, which is what you should be doing if you're making mistakes in life, right?

Like if you're going to get something out of it, like you can be in the world of hell, and you can be in the world of Bodhisattah at the same time. Right? You can exist in both of these worlds. You can be in a state of hunger and be in a state of tranquility. You know, it's about extracting value from painful lessons or for challenges and turning them into something good, you know. So within all of these different worlds or realms, you know, we have the ability to take life lessons and however challenging they may be and turn them into something positive immediately. But most people, you know, don't think in those terms, right?

because most people, like you said, there's a lot of people out there that literally are walking from tragedy to tragedy. There are people out there that are doing that. And, you know, and so, you know, what happens to them is they end up in the world of animality. Right. Because those life experiences without any reflection on the value that they're actually getting from very tough life experiences, you know, will lead them into being animals. And so the world of animality is one of the, was a, was a little. one of the darkest places you can be in, and that's one of the hardest worlds to escape. You know, because that actually takes reflection.

Yeah. You know, and so, you know, when you make mistakes in life and you have these challenges, you know, I'm a guy, you know, I've, you know, I've done time in a number of states for a number of reasons, anywhere from, you know, from assault to illegal weapons and drugs. and trafficking and, you know, and, you know, and a bunch of different things. And, and in some of those very low points in my life, you know, I've been, you know, I didn't always reflect on what it was I was doing. I always accepted responsibility, right? I never pointed the fingers in anybody else.

If I ever stood in front of the judge, the words out of my mouth was like, yeah, fuck, yeah, I did that. You know, was never like, oh, you know, like, This person made me do it, or I didn't realize what was going on or, you know what I mean? I never did that shit. But then at that same time, I really wasn't learning either. I was accepting responsibility, but I wasn't learning, you know. It wasn't later on in life, you know. You know, the last time that I did time in Texas, you know, was when I actually was like, you know, sitting in a jail cell and going, yeah.

Like, I got a, you know. like I broke down because then I really started thinking about what I was doing to myself and my family and how my you know how my actions were affecting other people and then that's when you really start to you know you really start to grow you know that's where growth occurs you know yeah it's the only it's necessary for there to be growth like you said that's the only way growth can happen You know what, Paul, like, I was, I was curious if, you know, we got our friend Scott here. And you had said something really powerful to me that was really positive about Scott. Like how, like, you were like, if you're listening to Scott, me and Paul had this conversation. And Paul was like, so your friend Scott could be a fucking really powerful person. I was, since Scott's here, I was wondering if you could tell, if you could repeat that to me while he's listening here. Yeah, I don't need to do that.

All right. Yeah. I think that, you know, it's, it is the tragedies in your life that allow you to grow and that you can't actually move forward and really become another person. Like, sometimes I think it's those tragedies, man, that like, it's like the snake shedding its skin. You know, I was talking to Ben about this. Whenever a snake wants to shed its skin, it's forced to.

find a really rough patch of gravel and dirt and it goes out there and it's it's you know the rough patches are the spot where we find ourselves when we shed our skin so the snake finds like a rough patch and it wiggles around and it starts at the it starts at its mouth and then it has to like shed this entire body off of it and while that happens while that happens like the snake is incredibly vulnerable. And a lot of times, like a bird will fly by and grab it and kill it or, you know, a coyote will come out. But it has to make itself incredibly vulnerable in order to shed the skin and move forward with its life. And I think it's a good metaphor for us. Like if we want to become the person that we know we can be or that we're supposed to be or that life wants us to be,

we have to shed our skin all these different times. And the only way to do that is to be vulnerable. The only way to do that is to find is through a really rough patch. Man, I heard that recently. And I just, it just blew my mind because I'm like, God, damn, man. It's, it's, it's in the animal kingdom. It's, you know, it's a butterfly that be, it's a cataport that becomes a butterfly. It's all these death and rebirth things that we happen, that happen to us. And you get to emerge as this new form. And so it makes me sad sometimes when people don't learn or they have to keep repeating stuff. It's like, man, yeah, that's pain is there. I get it. But it's so much more beautiful on the other side. And that's taken responsibility for

maybe that's breaking down in a prison cell or losing a kid or, you know, losing an ex-wife. There's all these things that it can be. But I just, if I can get one message out there and tell people, you know, a tragedy is like shedding your skin, man. What do you think about that metaphor? Yeah, you know. Those two mixed up. No, that was a good metaphor. You know, because it, you know, it allows you know, you know, I mean, when you hit rock bottom, man, and when you're at a place of complete desperation, you know, or you are, you know, you find yourself kind of throwing your, you know, giving yourself, you're putting yourself out there for mercy, right? You, you know, you're looking for friends.

you're looking for people who will listen, anybody who will, you know, take time and give you attention, you know. And so, you know, it's a,

it's a, it can be a very powerful place. It's very liberating, right, when you think about it. Yeah. You know, you know,

tragedy can be liberating. Um, you know, you can, it gives people an opportunity to, to, you know, hit the reset button, you know,

a little bit. Yeah. But hopefully you take those things and you, you know, and you really, you really digest them and you really think about them, you know. Yeah. And then you use those things to, you know, like, you know, to benefit other people. Yeah, exactly. Like, I've been through a lot of shit in my life.

And, and, you know, for some reason, and I've, you know, I've told you this before. People call me up all hours of the night, day, whenever, you know, friends of mine, they got problems. They want to talk to me. They show up there at my house, you know, unannounced. and we chat, you know, and I'm, and I'm happy that I can be that person for, you know, for friends. And even people with strangers, man, I've had, I've had strangers, like sitting in the airport just open up to me and just start, you know, talking to me about a bunch of shit that's going on in their lives, you know, I've been on train rides where that stuff has happened.

I've, you know, I've been in public places and had people just be like, you know, start talking to me about stuff. And, you know, and it's, and it's like, It's community, right? And you take those things and, you know, maybe there's a lot portion of my life, or I just been like, you know, fuck you, you know, get out of my face. You know, I don't care about your problems.

You know, I don't want to hear what you have to say or go cry to somebody else. But then, you know, at some point in your life, you got to grow up. At some point in your life, you got to, you know, you got to think beyond the tip of your nose. You know, some point in your life, you've got to, you got to decide that you,

you know, you want to build bridges just instead of burning them down. You want to help people instead of hurting them. You know, you want to, you know, you want to do, you want to do good instead of bad, right? It's like, it's like the basics of life. But it takes a lot, it takes people a long time to get to that place. Some people never get there. Yeah.

Some people are, you know, are caught up in their own animalistic ways that, you know, and they get, they get into rhythms and whatever it may be, you know, the monotony of their life becomes too overwhelming. And so they, you know, they turn to drugs and they drink and I've done that. You know? Yeah, me too.

And, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that, but, you know, you've got to deal with some perspective, right? You know, you should be trying to gain something out of it.

You know, for yourself, you know, life experience or, you know, a way to use those things and you know to benefit other people because if you're just out there

just like you know only worried about yourself then you might as well just jump off a fucking bridge yeah it's interesting like I feel like the older I get the more I realize that that's like the real wealth out there

and don't give me wrong like you know if you can if you're in a position where you get food in the fridge and a over your head, people that love you. You're pretty wealthy. But it seems to me that the older I get, the more I realize what's important is being able to help the people around you. And that's where the wealth comes in because then all of a sudden you get this feeling about being good and doing good. And ultimately, that's what money does. Money just gives you a feeling. Money just

gives you this feeling of like, oh, I can buy whatever I want or I can, money gives you freedom, but freedom gives you this feeling. And I think that being able to help other people to make everyone around you better provides that same kind of feeling. And maybe I'm saying that because I'm not really wealthy, but I think it's the same thing, you know. Yeah, well, you know, like, I mean, some of the most effective people, that I know, like communication-wise or, you know, I mean, just like role model type people. No, you know, there's a tactic being called, you know, a role model. But are some of the people that have been through just the fucking shit in life, you know,

people that just fucked up. Yeah. When they're like, hey, you know, I don't want to be that person anymore. And I want to, I like to take some of these life, you know, life experiences that I've had. and I would like to share them with people. And, you know, people that can do that and become effective communicators and who can drop all the fear.

I mean, that was me, right? Like, when I was out there committing crime and doing freaking, you know, doing shit, it was all, it was based around fear, even though I was the guy that was like, you know, fuck the world, whatever, you know. But it was all, you know, it was gonna get older that I realized,

wow, that was, you were a scared young man, you know, everything scared you. You know, even though you were highly confrontational, everything fucking scared you. Like, what's the relationship there? Can you break that down for us? Like, what do you, like, what does it mean to be scared but like committing crime? It's like, are you committing crime because you are scared?

I don't understand that relationship. I mean, it's just a, it's just a fear of like, you know, there's rational fears, George, and then there's irrational fears. And then there's fears that you can't escape, right, no matter how hard you try, you know, stuff that happened to you when you were a kid, you know, highly traumatic episodes within your life at any point in time, you know. And so you always have these things within you. But it's about being able to look at those things and put them into, you know, in the context in your life. And to not let those things shape the way you view the world. you know it's like it's like people you listen to people they you know they talk about like

people that are xenophobic that are like you know hey you know i know i know i know people that are like um don't call you know i'm not xenophobic because xenophobia is the fear of immigrants and i fear nobody okay that may be true but when i listen to you talk and you're telling me that you know that gangsters and rapists and murderers are and this is how you describe immigrants right are coming into this country, not saying that they're not. But when your focus is about like, you know, like these people being terrible people, when by and large,

we know that most of the people, like immigrants that are coming into this country, just want a better life, right? They're like you and me. They just want to do better for their families. They want that dream that I talked about earlier. Right? But they focus on the negative stuff.

That's xenophobia, right? That's an irrational fear. I mean, you have every right to be afraid of rapists and murderers and frigging, you know, drug kingpins and gangsters, you know, that they're going to come and disturb your community or maybe hurt a family member. That's real. But when you focus on those types of things, right, now you're, and I'm not saying you wouldn't stand in front of one of those persons and, you know,

one of those people and go toe to toe. I'm not saying that. But it's the logic that would bring you to that point to standing in front of those people going toe to toe. That's fear-based. But maybe you're... And so for me, I agree. I agree. Yeah.

Yeah. So from when I'm like, it was like that, it was there was a lot of anger, you know, and, you know, and resents, resentments in life. And, and so, you know, it was, it was about being confrontational. But all the things that I was angry about were, you know, usually had to do with, like, my irrational fears or my lack of understanding of what it really is. and so as we get older, right, we mature, hopefully, right? And so when I say people that I know that have been, you know, at the deepest, darkest places of hell and of return, you know, I know guys that are, you know, that I've told you about my family life, man. I got cousins that are still freaking in the deepest, darkest places of hell, and they're quite happy being there, you know,

and they're out committing heinous crimes. and you know i mean that's that's basically every male in my family and i was on that road too but it was about you know understanding you know thank god for my mom right like i learned a lot from my mom and and it was about the understanding of of of you know like what fear is you know because in her i saw somebody who was strong right because my dad is like one of the worst human beings ever to walk earth right And, and so, like, I saw this woman who, you know, who took beatings and freaking, you know, and stood up to this man, right? And got me away from this guy, you know, not all the time, but most of the time. And I saw the strength in her and what she did, you know, and I was just really like, wow, you know.

but you know I mean not everybody you know not everybody is fortunate to have somebody in their life who can actually you know that has that type of strength you know a lot of people just give in to the abusers give in to the fear man it's it's so

interesting like I'm sorry sorry that should happen man it's a horrible thing I can't it speaks volumes of the way in which you see the world when you get to learn about how the way someone was raised, man.

And I agree. Like I know so many people that have had some very difficult challenges in their life. And they, it sucks in so many ways, but it ends up being that, which makes them so fucking interesting to me. You know, it's like, dude, how the fuck did you overcome that? Like, why do you think that?

And when you get back to it, it's usually these horrible things that happen to you. Like that's what brings me back to my premise. Like, God damn it. Like the tragedies that were forced to go through, they shape us. And a lot of times we feel as if we are in a position that we can't change anything. And it's half right. Like you can't change what happened to you.

You can't change that horrible tragedy. You can't change that event, but you can change the meaning of it. And the story you just told me is the story of a young man changing the meaning of the events in his life. Like when you grow up and you saw these horrible things and you think about the courage of your mother to stand there, this abusive world. And all of a sudden you take the idea of courage is like, I will stand up. I will fucking fight anybody, man. I'll do this. You find yourself in prison or in court, you know.

And then all of a sudden you understand that like, wait a minute, that's not the meaning of courage. I had it wrong. This is the meaning of courage. You know, and you like that's a goddamn, one of the greatest success stories I've ever seen in my life is someone going through a tragedy, taking the meaning that was kind of push on them and then understanding and creating a new meaning out of it. Like that's the, that's the, that's the hero's journey. You know, it's the, the ability to, to create the meaning of an event that was thrust upon you in a way. Like, it's hard. It's hard to see tragedy as a gift because it, it takes years of experience of, it's like a, it's like a sword that you put into the, you know, the, the fire.

and then you got to take it out and fucking pound that thing. Pop, pop, paw, paw, pop, you put it back in the fire. Pull it back out and you pound this some more. You know, it seems that the more tempered that sword is, the stronger the steel. You know, but how many swords get broken in that process? And we see that happen all the time.

And it's not a really great analogy because tons of parents and tons of times the world breaks people. But when it doesn't, it seems that those people, a lot of those people can come out and, do you think that what happened to you has given you the ability to see it happening to other people?

I don't know, man. It took a long time before I would even like, you know, like, like I said, man, my, you know, my, it took a long time before I'd even think about any of those things, right, in my life. Like, I just, you know, as a kid,

I just buried those things, you know, And it wasn't until, you know, it was actually quite recently in my life. Like I had this, you know, anger with my, with my dad for fucking most of my life. You know, but, you know, you get to a point in life where it's like, you know, I've kind of processed a lot of that stuff, you know, and some of the things that I saw and a lot of things that were said. and then really had an opportunity to look at my, you know, look at my dad's life. Yeah. You know, and to kind of, you know, see, like, how, you know, how he was raised, which he was, you know, he was tortured as a kid.

You know, my auntie wrote a book, you know, and she would talk to me about it. And she actually wrote a book, you know, describing, like, you know, her life, my, you know, my dad and her brothers, you know, life in Wymanalo. And, you know, basically, where she just, she spends a lot of time talking about, you know, being pistol whipped and hung from trees and beaten and left there. And, you know, and just straight up being tortured. My father was tortured when, you know, his whole childhood. And so he didn't know any better.

He didn't know any different. You know, that was just the way. But it took me a long time to actually realize. like, fuck, this is like this is a generational shit, you know. And those scars that my grandfather left on my family, they live within me, you know. They, they live within my kids. You know, I see the fallout and, you know, and most of my cousins, my brother, you know, and the lives that they've led, you know, for the most part have been tragic.

And, you know, it's so it's hard for me, you know, to like, you know, because I communicate with my dad every once in a while. And it's hard for me to really, like, you know, hate him with the magnitude that I once hated him. You know. And I guess that's, you know, that's also, that's me growing up. And, you know, having kids of my own. And what has taught me is just try to be a much better father than my dad was. Yeah, it's, you know, life is interesting, man.

You know, and I know people that have, you know, similar life experience, and you would never know it. You talk to these people and you would never know that they, you know, that they come from a violent world or they come from a world of drugs or they come from, because like when you go to school, when you're a kid and you're growing up and everybody kind of gets, you know, everybody's like right there, like, freshly combed hair and brush teeth and all that stuff when you see them in the morning and it's kind of like but you don't know what it took for you know for all those individuals to actually show up to school

you know and and for some of them it was a miracle that they actually got there but you never knew that you know and people don't talk about that stuff right so you know we we try to do what we can you know to um you know to be compassionate to have empathy you know and to you know and they care about each other and that's kind of that's what i've learned from from seeing the stuff that i've that i've seen in my life you know and i've had other you know you know i've lost a child and you know that's tremendously you know that's traumatic that's that's a rock bottom experience and so you know all of these things you just try to you know You try to, you know, pick yourself up off the mat and learn from your experience.

And then, you know, and then, and so, you know, what I found was, is like, people who have, who've experienced a tremendous amount of adversity in life, you know, can actually be really effective people later on in life, you know, if they choose to be. You know, they choose to have some communication skills. if they choose to kind of move out of the world of fear, if they choose to, you know, reach out to their brothers and sisters in the community and to help people, like they can be some of the most powerful people. In fact,

some of the most powerful people I know, you know, came from those similar types of backgrounds. Yeah, it's a common theme. You know, the, and it usually, it's usually the same way that abuses the pattern, so too, is helping people a pattern.

You know, when you look at the, when I look at the people that have helped me, they've been through something similar or more. You know, when I've, I've talking to some friends who ended up being counselors at like a halfway house or counselors at like a drug rehab. And they cite, you know, someone in their family that went through drugs. So they cite their own story about how someone helped them when they do it. And, you know, it's like this, you know, when we talk about brothers and sisters. and family. You have your family that you're given that you're born into. But sometimes you have a family of people that you're drawn to, you know, like someone that does the same thing. You know, I talk to a lot of younger men at my work that, you know, different races, different,

talk to some young women. I mentor a lot of people because I see myself in them. And I think some of them see themselves in me. You know, and I, I see them doing things and I'm like, that way, what are you doing? That's the worst thing you can do. Why? Because these are the four things that are going to happen to you when that, when you do that. And after those four things happen, you're only going to have two choices left. You're going to, you know, you pick this one. And like, you know, it's, it's, that's the family that you, you have a family that you're born into and maybe a family that you can have around you, if you're willing to look at the people and see yourself in them. I think that that's, you know, in a strange way, it's beautiful. Like I said,

I don't think the pain or the suffering or the tragedy or the torture is beautiful. But I think the fact that someone can go through that and come out a better person is beautiful. I'm not saying people should go through it. I'm just saying the fact that they do go through it and come out the other side is it's a, it speaks volumes of the human condition. Yeah. I mean, you know, for, you know, the stuff that I've been through in my life, like, I still, you know, consider myself to be a lucky person. You know, I'm still tremendously grateful. You know, and I guess that's, how do you maintain that? Like, when you always, do you think, what's that? Did you feel grateful when you were, did you, did you have that gratefulness, like, when you found yourself in jail? Like, were you grateful then? Or is this something that kind of manifested after? going through some tough times. Were you always grateful? Do you always think you were lucky?

Or is this something that happened in the last 20 years or 10 years or what? Yeah, it's been in the last, you know. Well, I mean, the last time I was in jail wasn't that long ago. But, you know, it's, yeah, you know, you, I mean, for me, it was like, kind of just looking around, right? You know, at my life and just being thankful, right? For the people that I do have in my life, however few there are, right? And, you know, and, you know, just trying to see the world as being, you know,

like the glass of being half full and not half empty. And that's, like I said, that kind of comes out of like, Because when I was, you know, when I was, you know, a fear-based person and I used to be one, right? Then I would never look at the world that way. You know, super pessimistic, you know, all these frigging evil forces moving about the world that are out to get me, you know, you know, we're politicians or whatever they may be, the police, you know, all this different stuff. And it was all, you know, it was all just, you know, being a person who lived in fear. and then when I started moving out of the world of fear, right, then it allowed me to kind of, you know,

to kind of take a step back and look at my life and, you know, look at, you know, just kind of analyze, you know, some of the things that I thought were true in my life and realize that they're not true. And, yeah, and just kind of be, it's like, you know, like talk to. with you. You know, it's like, you know, you and I debate. Yeah, all time. Yeah, we do. But,

you know, as you know, like, I'm only willing to debate certain things. I don't, I don't, I don't, those things that you'd like to talk about that I don't want to discuss because, you know, it's not my style. I don't, I'm not, you know, like, especially like conspiracy theory shit, you know. And so for me, you know, like, I used to be one of those guys. and so not so much anymore you know not to say that some of those things don't have some truths to them but

you know it's about freaking it's about leveling out the valleys and the peaks and trying to find the middle ground and finding peace you know but still also have convictions right it's a balance yeah yeah I heard a good quote recently that said this guy said I have a good philosophy

for attaining my goals. And it's pretty simple. All I need to do is see where I'm at now and see where I need to go and then visualize the road to get there. But the tricky part is visualizing the road. You know, like think about all the things you have to do to get there. And then is it worth it? I thought that was a pretty good visualization.

Because like if you look at your goal, if your goal is, You know, pick whatever your goal is. Are you willing to do the things it takes to get there? What if your goal is to have a billion dollars? And you go, okay, well, how would you do it? Well, I would have to sacrifice my family, my house. I have to do all these things in order to get to that goal. And you go, man, it's not really worth it.

Why would I do that? It's kind of a good rocking chair test, you know? The rocking chair test is if you hold an idea in your mind and imagine yourself in your rocking chair, at the age of 80 and you wish you would have done it, then you should probably do it now. That's the rocking chair test. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I think you, I don't know, it's kind of funny, I just expect to chat on this thing. Yeah. And so I guess that's what you mean by your buddy. It was freaking back, I don't know if you guys were having a conversation or whatever. But if you want me to jump off, man, you want to bring him on and you guys can do some podcasting. I can do that, you know.

No. I just wanted to, I mean, I was reading his chats. I love you, Scott. And I, I think you should read that chat. And he talked about how much he liked you right there. I was like, oh, that's a pretty nice olive branch. Maybe I'd get Paul to do it, see if he wants to say something, but I don't really care. I love you guys both. But, yeah, I think there's something to be said about tragedy. You know what I mean? I think that there's something to be said about the path that every individual has to go. on. And even though, like, you and I have our own stories about the tragedies that we went through, I think everybody has that story. It may not be as tragic or as magnificent, but everybody has that, right? Absolutely, man. I know that whatever my life has been, and I'm not complaining, you know, it's been better than a lot of people and it's been worse than some, you know, and it depends on how you look at it and depends on, you know, on what you're, you think is actually tragic and what you think is not. Right. So like, you know, I'm not out there. Like, I've never been one. And, you know, to, you know, I'm not trying to compare my life to anybody

else's life. It's just my life experience. You know, I mean, do I know that there's people out there that have suffered more than me? Oh, hell yeah. Like, I'm not blind to that at all, you know. And, but what I am saying is that is that whatever those things are in your life that have been challenging, right? So that's why I was like, you know, one of the movie. away from using the word tragedies and the move into using the word challenges, right? And the very

degrees of challenge, you know, that you know, there's, you can exist in both of those worlds and that's what you're saying, how you can be like in this, you know, in the darkest, deepest pits of hell and still be grateful.

Like, that is possible, right? You know, and I talk about Buddhism. because Buddhism teaches you that. Yeah. Right? You, you know, you can. And I guess it depends on, on, on how present you are in your own life.

Right. And I went, I went long periods of time without, like, it was some sort of autopilot that I didn't even think that I had any control over. I didn't even know, like, what my, you know, rationale for what my decision-making process was when I think about, you know, when I was a young man, right, or a teenager. and, you know, because it seems like, you know, I've told you, like I've described myself as a very primitive person back then, right? Just like the whole, the whole, you know, the whole mindset, the whole the outlook on life and, and, you know, very animalistic. Yeah. And so, and I look at those times as like, yeah, I had some fun. And there were a lot of challenges, and there's a lot of trouble.

but um you know but i wouldn't i wouldn't you know i would i like i like living how i'm living now you know what i'm saying compared to how i was back then because it almost seems kind of like a dark period you know and so i guess we we know we have these periods in life and we you know we move through them right and hopefully we're learning as we're moving through them and then we're able to come out of the other side you know you know we move through them right and hopefully we're able to come out of the other side you know, a better person, you know, with wisdom. And I think that's the key, right? It's like, it's like wisdom is the key.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I don't know. For something, I like the word tragedy. I don't know why. I can understand wanting to use challenge to be a way in which people could see it differently. But I think, I do think, sometimes I think that, you know, going through those challenges in your life, Like you really, you can't pick your parents and you can't choose what happens to you.

And it's just so weird to me that like when I look back at some of the things that I went through, I'm kind of thankful for them. I don't wish them on anybody. But I'm kind of thankful that I had that experience. And I guess the question will be like, why are you thankful for that? And I think the answer to that is because I found, the courage to get through it better because it you know like I don't want to repeat it I don't wish it on anybody else but I'm thankful that I I got through it you know and I

once you get that to that spot I think you can start looking for like well how did I get through it well I had some cool people around me well I I found I dug down deep and I found out who I really am I did some soul searching you know and Maybe it just comes down to the experiences in life that are so meaningful. Maybe that's another way to look at it. Maybe that's why you later in life are thankful. You know, you have because of all those things you went through, now you don't have them. And now it's leveled out.

And now there's no more peaks and no more real valleys. But now you have found this road that you can travel without all the giant boulders falling on you. Maybe that's where the thankfulness comes from. But that would still mean it comes from that experience. It's crazy to think about it. On some level, like once you get through all these tragedies and challenges, now your kid's going to go through them. You know what I mean?

It's like, now I've got to deal with it from a different angle. It's crazy to think about. It is. And, you know, I think, you know, you're thankful for those challenges that you went through when you were younger, you know what I mean? And however it was it was a good way to make challenges. I think you can say that, George, because you're happy with yourself today. Like, I think I think you're secure.

That's a great point. I think you're secure, you know, with yourself. And I think you're happy with yourself today. And so all of those things made you who you are. Right? You made peace with those things. You can be happy. Yeah.

I mean, yeah. I think for people who are, you know, who are not happy with themselves and they'll look at those challenges in life. and, you know, they'll have a different outlook than you did. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, it's weird. Like, you know, you think about, like, how we become who we are because we're constantly evolving. Right.

Yeah. Like, one of us can freaking, you know, like, have something happen tomorrow. We go off the deep end, right? Totally. And then, you know, and then we could live lives of despair. and then look back at your life and think, wow, you know, I'm not happy with myself. And my entire life was one giant tragedy that I was never able to overcome. Well, I mean, you've had a lot of challenges and you overcome them and you

overcame them. And so you, you know, you're happy with yourself and it's, you know. Anyways, I mean, I think that's, you know, I think that's kind of how it works, you know. Yeah, it's a great point. I never really, I mean, I guess I should have thought of that, but yeah, I guess thankfulness and gratitude are a derivative of making peace of the previous tragedies in your life. You understand, like, but that's, God damn, that's, well put. I should write that down, man.

That's pretty good. Good, but it's, yeah, yeah. It's absolutely true. You know. It's absolutely true. Yeah. It's so hard to get there. It's so hard to get there, Paul, because, like, how many sleepless nights have you had?

Or nights just fucking days of doing drugs with people to get to there. You know what I mean? Like, just deal for days, man, trying to figure shit out. Yeah. And, like, not even, not getting anywhere. Yeah, I didn't just get worse. You know? It's funny looking back at it, but it's not funny what it happened.

Yeah, I mean, that's how life is. That's what I'm saying. It's like, it's, you know, we live, even though you can live the most simple life, but in fact, it's pretty complicated, you know. Yes, that's well, yeah, yeah. And it's because, you know, we live with, you know, we're living in the present. We're living in the future. We're living in the past.

We have karma that connects all. of that together. Right? And it's that karma, right, from, that we inherit from our parents, right? Generational karma. And the karma that we have created for ourselves in our past. And the karma that we will have in the future, there's an intersection where all those things meet and that's called you.

And so we are constantly having to, you know, to deal with all of those things. right i understand like i have you know i see it in my kids man and and and i and i saw it myself you know and i and i and i talked to enough of my family that i realized like yeah i'm you know like that's why i say like you know the fact that my grandfather had on my family is generational we're gonna span like this thing could go like five generations before it finally clears my family you know five generations after him and you know and and and all that is karma it's nothing more. And so we need to

you know, like I go in front of the Gohanzan, right? And I chant. I don't know what that is. What's it Gohansen? It's a scroll. It's a scroll. Yeah. And really what it is is a mirror. Right? So, you know,

you know, and that's the world. Yeah. And, you know, so I, you know, I go in front of the Gohansan and I, you know, and I chant the Lotus Sutra. And all I'm really doing is taking time, you know, out of my day to send out a vibration into the universe in a positive manner in hopes that one day will return to me or my kids or my grandkids in a positive way. And to try to alleviate or reduce the amount of generational karma that I've been gifted, you know, from my family. and the karma that I've produced for myself and hopefully that, you know, I can produce enough good karma moving forward

that, you know, I can find that middle ground. But for someone like me, and we're not all the same, you know, middle ground is going to be a lot more challenging for me than it is for people that, you know, may not be carrying so much, you know, generational karma and have done, have led more exemplary lives than I have. this point. Yeah. And then there's,

and then there's people that have done, you know, that have way heavier generational karma than I do and that have, you know, you know, have been villains in their lives and they will always deal with that. And their intersection of karma is, you know,

is a train wreck. Yeah. It's, it's sad. But the positive thing is you can, you can begin putting out the positive vibrations. at any point you decide to all you have to do is decide it's hard but it's easy too you know and

i think that that you know just kind of begun to understand the world of vibrations and for a long time i've not for a long time but for kind of a long time the last few years i've been using a similar method of, and I got this from Carl Young, the idea that everyone around you is a mirror. And the only, the things you see in other people, be it like negative things or positive things, you only see those things because you recognize them. And the only way you recognize them is because those are the things that you do. So if you see somebody you really hate or you're getting mad at them, it's because they are a reflection of something that you do.

and you don't like seeing yourself. You don't like hearing yourself. So you get mad at it. You want to fight it. But the truth is that person you should be thankful for or that thing that's bothering that you see. You should be thankful for that because it's reminding you that's who you are. These are the things you're putting out there. So stop putting them out there.

Put out something positive. And you'll get the positive thing like you. Focus on the beauty that you see in other people. and that is a reflection of the beauty inside of you. You know, it's if you want to break it down to an actual level, you know, it's the vibrations you put out there. You know, if you could see sound waves, then the positive deeds and things you do would emanate a positive cosine wave or a sign wave.

You'd be able to see the difference versus the negative thing that you do. And ultimately, that wave is going to hit something. and refract back to you or break up into other parts. So when people say you're putting positive things out there, or you're putting negative things out there, you should be conscious of that because it's real. And the more you can see it, the more you can understand how you personally affect everything around you

by putting out positive or negative things. You're going to attract those things in your life. And the challenge is when the world around you is just banging all this negative stuff at you, soak it in and put out something positive. That's an incredible thing. And we see that in people, people that are true leaders, people that we want to listen to,

people that we want to be around are the people that have that ability to do. And everybody can do it. That's the beauty of it. Like every one of you listening to this can do it. Everyone of you watching this can do it. It just takes some time to build up the courage and the strength and the fortitude to change the negative into a positive.

That's basically what you're doing. You're just flipping the magnet over, right? Everybody's seen a magnet on one in his positive, on one in his negative. Flip that fucker over. Start being positive. Yeah. If only it was that easy. Words are easy.

You know, you can start there. You can start with easy and then start putting it into practice. It's a little bit more difficult, but you could start with easy. Yeah. Yeah, you can. That's kind of like, you know, something that you and I have talked about in the past is like trying to use, like, you know, different things that we've read and different life experiences to try to, you know, help people become better and more effective communicators, right? And then, you know, and then it's, it's a baby step, right? And then hopefully that people can, you know, you know, learn, because I feel and, you know, this, I feel.

that communication is everything. And I mean, there's so many, there's, you know, I think that, you know, most marriages erode because of poor communication, people that probably would be otherwise happily married, but had such poor communication skills that they wind up in divorce. You know, confrontations because of poor communication skills, you know, people, you know, not being able to, you know, interpret other people's words correctly or people using the wrong words

and having them interpreted spot on, right? And so, you know, trying to become a better communicator. And that was something that always frustrated me when I was younger, right? Was like, I just, I couldn't, I couldn't, I didn't know how to properly express myself, right? And so it led to frustration. And then it led to anger. And, um, And it wasn't until I actually started to focus on communication as like making it a priority in my life.

It's just like, well, how come I have all these like confrontations with people all the time, you know? I got, you know, like is there something wrong with me? Yeah, there is. You know, because you're a shit communicator, Paul. That's why. That's a tough thing for someone to get to at a young age. That's some deep thinking. You have to be pretty honest with yourself and be like, what's the problem?

Why am I having this effect on people? And then they come to the realization, well, it's me. I'm the problem. A lot of people don't, a lot of people, even in their older in life, don't want to get there. Yeah, I mean, it's because I don't think it's an actual want. I mean, I don't, I think most people walk around going, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a good communicator. Yeah. And maybe really they're not.

Right. Yeah. Hey, I'm a great communicator. Well, you're not. You're not a great communicator. And so most people, and then that's what it is. And that's why, you know, for me, you know, like I usually find some time every day to do some daimoku. And, you know, and then take, I don't know what that is.

That's chanting. That's, you know, a form of chanting. And so I, I, you know, take that time. time to just kind of reflect and you know and it's kind of the try to like do some deep dive into you know what makes me tick um and and and it's bro it can be scary you know like there's some truths that you can discover about yourself that are mortifying yeah i know those ones yeah so getting through that right is is is a key and then accepting those things and then understanding like yeah like I have power to make those changes.

Yeah, I'm a beast. Like, I'm a lunatic. What's wrong with me? How do I do that? Why do I think that? Well, you are. I have a little bit. I've made peace with it, though.

Like, I think about your day, and I'm like, there's not enough time in a day for George Monty. I was up at 4.30. Really are an animal, George. Thank you. Thank you. A fucking ass crack at. dawn you know just like fucking like you know it's it's you know it's it's it's amazing really

you know i hate it a lot of times huh it's kind of a problem i kind of hate it sometimes like i have like a love hate relationship with it like i'll be up at i'm up at 430 every day and if i don't get out of my bed by like 505 you guys i think horrible things about myself Like horrible things about us. Like I am a fucking loser. The fuck am I. It was no late here not doing anything. What the fuck are you doing?

You're just wasting your life, George. Like I have to do that until I get out of bed. And usually I'll pop out of bed because I don't want to do that. But that's what I do until I get out of bed. Like, that's crazy, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm not up at that early, but I'm, you know, I'm not too far behind you. Right? It's Hawaii.

People get up front of you. I know. you know, especially over here on mouth. You know what? Another thing too, I think you and I share in common is yeah. I don't know. I think there's, I don't know. The part of me that loves it is like I can have a lot of stuff I want to get done. And I'm responsible to a lot of different people. And the only way I can do what I want to do is if I have time for myself.

And the only time I have for myself is before everyone gets up or when everyone goes to bed. That's when I can do the things that I want to do. That's when I can do the things that I like to do. That's talking to you. It's doing a podcast. That's trying to create a business on top of being a dad, working a full-time job, being a husband, caring about everything that you're supposed to care about as a man. If you want to do something other than that, then you have to do it on your time.

And your time is when everyone else is set and they're healthy and they're happy and they're not around. So that's why I love it. That's why I do it is I want more. I want to be the best person I can possibly be and that I can only work on myself, these selfish goals that I have when everyone else is fine, when everyone else is well. Then I feel like, okay, everyone's crashed out.

I have all the plans set up. Now I can work on these other things that I want to work on. But you know what I think, too, Paul, You spend a lot of time alone, don't you? Like, I'm a big loner in a lot of ways. You find that being something that you enjoy and something you do is being alone? I mean, I'm kind of used to it. I've, you know, kind of been that way.

Yeah, well, I mean, because of my work, right? There's just, like, I'm either in a piece of, like, heavy equipment or an tractor or, you know, or do something like that. I'm usually alone. And, and so, yeah, I've gotten, but I've also kind of developed, like, I've always struggled with anxiety, you know, especially like social anxiety, like big groups of people, you know. I think just like the time that I've spent, you know, from my work alone has, like, amplified that. And so, yeah, I mean, I do really well alone. Like, I thrive alone.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it'd be nothing for me to fucking, like, you know, Desert Island. Yep. Like, just freaking out there all alone, I don't, you know, I'd be perfectly fine with that. Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Well, I mean, you know, but it sounds like you don't get a lot of it, you know. I do. I escape, you know. They broke up on me. I did. It sounds like you don't get a lot of that, you know, a lot of the, you know, alone time. It's weird because I'm alone. It's like I'm all, we're all alone together.

All day long, like I probably talk to, like if I do 150 stops on my route, I bet you I talk to 60, 70 people, which is a lot for a day. And some, the conversations range from, hey, how's it going to, hey, how's your kid doing? you know like a lot of the conversations i have or hey i can't find this package where is it over here a lot of the conversations i have they're not very deep conversations but they are a conversation a new one with a new individual sometimes every minute and a half or every three minutes i'm talking to a new person but that being said because it's not a deep conversation i'm not really thinking past that i'm not really thinking about that person once the conversation is done so i am pretty much I'm alone from like eight in the morning to like eight at night with superficial

conversations all around me so I have I have real estate in my mind I have time to think about things but meanwhile I'm having these cheap conversations all day long it's but I don't know I couldn't I couldn't it would it would be confining to me in a weird way like this is probably obtuse but it would be confining to me to be surrounded by the same group of people in an office all day long. Like that, I wouldn't like that at all. Yeah, right? Were you just kind of away? Yeah, exactly.

And I'd have to be nice to everybody and talk about things that I didn't care about. Like, that would be a big problem for me. Yeah, I mean, that's the cool thing about, like, your job is, like, you could be really abrupt in a conversation because, People expect that. Like, oh, this guy's got a million packages to deliver. Like, he's spending 15 seconds with me. It's about right at the end. And then it does, cool, you know.

But in an office setting, you'd probably, you know, you'd probably get cornered by some of these people. Oh, guaranteed. Water cooler shit, they'd get you. Back you in a corner. Then you had to come out swinging. I don't want to talk to George anymore. Oh, yeah.

You'd hurt their feelings a little bit. Yeah, that's the cool thing about my job. right? It's like, fucking, and I have people come up to me when I'm in a machine and they're just like, they're waving at me and they want something from me. And I look at them and I just fucking ignore them and I just keep going. You know, and I kind of let them out, right? And sometimes I stop. But sometimes I just don't. I pretend like they're not even there.

I just keep doing my thing. that's hilarious yeah eventually they walk away right or they drive away or whatever they go they go away and then I don't see them again maybe a couple more days and I'm

and I'm happy with that and I didn't see you guys sorry I didn't see you You looked right at me. Nah, I didn't see you. Are you secretly laughing inside of that? What's going on here when that happens? Well, usually when I'm doing something like, you know, when I do that, it's usually

it's usually because I have some idea why they're standing there or why they're pulled up or whatever, right? Right. You know what they want. I don't want to talk about that. Yeah, I think I kind of know what they want or what they're going to ask or whatever. and I just don't want to, you know, I don't want to hear it right now. And so I just, you know, I just keep doing my thing.

If it's important. Yeah. Is there ever like a little voice inside your head that's like, maybe this is, maybe this is something I should listen to. Um, yeah. Emergency. Um, well, I mean, I think people have certain ways of like communicating with me that there's an emergency, you know, um, but like if they're just kind of like walking up,

you know, you kind of tell my body. language you know like oh this is unimportant waste of time right and and I keep going it oftentimes it's like you know there's been either like an ongoing issue or something that's been happening or whatever you know and I'm tired of like hey look I've given you all the advice I can give and I know why you're standing here and it's time for you to just go away right yeah and and you got to figure it out but you know I'm that I'm that type of boss though you know Like, I don't care if people show up late.

Just get your work done. I don't care if you take an hour and a half lunch, just get your work done. You know, I don't care if you, you know, but I don't know. I expect that, you know, your tasks for the day will be completed. I don't care if you spend an hour and a half arguing with your girl on the phone. You know what I mean? Just get your shit done. Because I don't like to babysit.

That's like the first thing I tell people, like, you know, that come out and work with us is like, I'm not going to babysit you. Right? But I'm not going to think about you either. You know, so we have goals. We have tasks that need to be done day to day, you know, and we'll teach you how to do those things. And if they're not getting completed, then you'll be gone. You know, like I, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to, you know, come crashing down on you because you were 40 minutes late to work. And I'm not going to come crashing down on you because you, you know, you took a two-hour lunch because you had a fucking social problem with your girlfriend or your mom or whatever the fuck.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't care about that stuff. All I care about is you getting your job done. Yeah. And so, I don't know. That's the best kind of people to work with. Yeah, I, you know, I think I'm, you know, I'm kind of a hands-off boss, you know. Like, I just, like, here it is.

I'll train you. This is what we're doing. This is where I expect to be by the end of the day, you know. And if you're not there and you've been on the phone, and I know you've been on the phone, and I'm leaving. at four o'clock or five o'clock or whatever i expect you to stay and get it done you owe me that right yeah and if you start falling behind well then i'll find somebody else to do your job and for the most part it's always worked out you know yeah yeah yeah i think people find that refreshing like i fucking have a little faith in me don't fucking get it i can do it i'm not a dummy

show me how to do it you know show me the right way to do it and i'll fucking get it done some people like to be told what to do i guess some people do some people do um you know but you know like you know out on our farm um you know it's such a big place that um you know like we don't always see each other and of course like if you have like a real problem you know i'll get out of whatever I'm in and jump in my truck and come find you and we'll fix it, right? Sure. But, you know, at the same time, like, I expect people to be a little, you know, self-reliant and, you know, and to try to solve the problem on their own before they get on the phone and call me.

And, you know, I don't require a lot of communication either, you know, I mean, I understand, you know, people told me, because I've been through it all, you know, like, I've been on all of the equipment. I've had every breakdown you can, you know, I've, I know what all the challenges are. And so I have an idea of what the people who work for me are doing. And, yeah, it's just, it's more goal oriented. It's not, it's not time. You know, if you want to come and, you know, like, I've never, I've never denied anybody a day off ever, you know, oh, I want two weeks, three weeks to go freaking backpacking with my girlfriend

on the big island or I'm going to you know Australia or I'm going wherever I'm going to go I'm just going to go do that it's like cool do it you know I've had people that have come back from you know being on a month and immediately asked for a couple days after they just want to go hang out with some visitors that are coming to see them and they're going to go to the beach cool whatever you know we'll pick up the slack we'll you know

we'll make it work And so I think it's been really well received from the people who work with us, right? It's like we don't, like I'm not trying to get in the way of you enjoying your life, but also understand that there's a balance, right? That I have a, you know, we have a job to get done here and all of our livelihoods depend on it. You know, so. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I, we try to create, you know, a place where people actually want to come and work. And it's worked out for us. You know, we've had, we've had some people, you know, but, you know, some people that just not fit for that type of work. And, you know, and so they don't last long. But the ones that are like, yeah, they enjoy the work. They enjoy farming. They enjoy beekeeping.

And they enjoy those things, you know. Then those ones hang around because, like I said, we're pretty cool with, like, you know, like working for us. You know, when I say I have a business partner. All right. So we're pretty easy to work for. When you look for people to work on the farm, do you look for specifically like one race and gender? No.

Okay, just second. No, not at all. Like we've had like, you know, I mean, I've had, you know, I've, shoot, I've had some really good workers of all different races and genders. You know, I had a woman, like when we started out years ago. who, you know, she was a single mom of three. You know, she had, she'd come from a pretty rough, you know, situation with her, with her ex-husband. And when we met her, like, she was,

she was rolling cigars at, like, the Grand Wailea on weekends and nights to make money. And, like, her and all her kids were living in, like, a one-bedroom apartment. And, and she would come out and she would work for us and she would work all day and then her kids were a little bit older. So she would sleep in her van on the farm and then be up

like you like four o'clock in the morning and just like this woman put out so much work. It was so long. It was incredible. Like how, like what she did and she would like, I would leave and she would still be working. You know? And I'd always have to tell her and be like, look, you know, like I can't like, we got overtime here. There's like

state rules about this and she's like, just give me cash. I don't give a fuck. And I'm like, all right. Yeah, fucking, you know, she just, she wanted to, she was a workhorse, man. She really was. I mean, we've had, I've had some, I've had some really good workers. And then I've had some bad ones, too. You know, I mean, it's the way it goes. You know.

But it's, but we always make it about people first, right? It's like people first place. Yeah, it should be. Yeah. I mean, that's the rule. Yeah. And so that's the way you kind of keep it, you keep it, you know, you keep it positive, right? I don't want, I don't want people who are out there working on the farm, like, you know,

and we've had guys fuck up, whatever, and they get, truck in. There's repercussions, you know, it depends on what you do. And just the nature of it. But, like, if you're out there and you're showing up and you're working, you're working hard, man, then it's, then it's an easy job. You know, I mean, it's a grueling job, but dealing. dealing with us is easy. You know?

We've bought transport for our workers. Like, you know, like we've had good workers that are, you know, that are, you know, that were struggling. They were hitchhiking and taking the bus and all that stuff. We're like, fuck. We, you know, we fucking, you know, help them give them so they can get a car or bottom of fucking moped, right? Or, you know, like things in their lives a little bit easier for them.

Like, whatever we can do. I mean, it's not much, but, you know, help them out as much as we can. you know, let people live on our farm, you know, because they were homeless, became homeless while they were working with us or before they were working for us, had no security, you know. We'd let them, you know, live on our farm. Yeah, I think it speaks volumes of people first. You know, I wish that could be the first line in every contract that people sign. Well, I mean, it's it's got to be, right? It's like, the stuff that we've been talking about, right? What we've been talking about tonight. This whole thing, man. It's like a people first thing.

You know, whatever your life experiences are, whatever challenges that have you have met in your life and whatever, you know, there's a real humanistic quality to all of us and to, you know, to express that and to live by that rule, you know, is what we should have. all be striving to do yeah i like it i think it's a good spot to leave it man i'm getting uh i'm i'm thankful man this is a this is a great conversation i i miss talking to you my friend this is our first conversation or our first podcast of 2023 it was yeah yeah no it's great man yeah it was yeah vice versa we uh we went pretty deep man we talked about a lot of family things

that I've never heard before, man. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, it's just we all have stories, man. Some are worse, some are better, but we all have stories, and they're all equally

as profound to us as individuals. And you know, and to me, it's like, it's been the theme of my life for the last 20 years is how do you take all that and turn it into something productive? You just did it. You just did it. You just did it tonight, I think.

You try. You know, I mean, that's all you can do is try. But right on, George. Well, I think it's a direct. Yeah, you got it, man. Yeah, I'll hit you up tomorrow, man. We'll figure out, text you or call you or something in a few hours. And I'm super stoked, man.

I really, I really enjoy talking to you. And I appreciate our friendship. And I think I'm better because of it. So I'll talk to you soon. I hope you have a great night until the family I said, what's up? And talk to you soon, my friend. All right, George. Yeah.

Give your family my aloha and yeah, look forward to our next chat. Absolutely, man. I'm going to end this broadcast. Aloha.