TrueLife - Luke Jensen - Neurofeedback Practitioner

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/luke-jensen-658454262Neurofeedback practitioner, researcher, and armature anthropologist based in the Sacred Valley of Peru. Primarily study changes in the brain during after the use of plant medicines.Also train spiritual states through neurofeedback training. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back again to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day out here. I got an incredible individual who's doing some incredible work, and he's coming all the way from the Sacred Valley of Peru. It's the one and only Luke Jensen,

neurofeedback practitioner, psychedelic researcher, self-proclaimed armchair anthropologist. And like I said, he's coming all the way from the sacred valley. Luke, how are you today? Doing well. How are you? I'm a little under the weather, but I'm so happy to be here, man. It's kind of a weird feeling, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

Yeah. For those who may not know who you are, Luke, Would you be so kind as to maybe give a background and then maybe talk about your journey, like how you got to be in the Sacred Valley of Peru? Yeah. So I'm in a, I joined the Marine Corps out of high school. That's how the story starts. And it was quite an adventure.

I would say boot camp's own type of shamanic experience maybe. You know, you totally changed from this high school kid to, you know, going into boot camp and whole other world and make warriors out. you. And I was in the Marine Corps Reserve for six years, and then I never got deployed, and there's this National Guard Airborne Infantry Unit that was deployed Afghanistan in 2011. So I volunteered to deploy with them. I switched branches, and deployed airborne infantry to Afghanistan, 2011. And like probably most deployments, there's a lot to it. There is lots of really cool parts I enjoyed. I really enjoyed being in the country. I was out to the wire every day. I

was training Afghan Army, Afghan police. It was a really unique experience. And the same time, other things with other things, you know, are kind of challenging. And some, after I got back, those other parts that were more challenging made me rethink my career and what I want to do. And so after that, so a lot happened to deployment. For one, when I got back, I'm like, okay, this is going to be your career, this is going to be your life, and we can go back into what all happened there. But it came, I didn't know what to do. I lost my direction.

And I was always a person. I was always motivated, very goal-oriented. I felt lost. What do I do after this? Especially coming from like infantry to a certain kind of lifestyle. And then going back into, say, you know, business or something like that was not something that I was really thinking of. But I think it was about 10 years ago now, I heard a Joe Rogan podcast.

And it was a really good podcast. It was with Amber Lyons. She's a war reporter. And she was a reporter in these war zones. And she won the podcast. And she's talking about during the Arab Springs, you know, all that stuff happening in 2011, I think. And Joe Rogan says, hey, why don't you go down to Peru and try ayahuasca?

And she flew down to Peru, she did ayahuasca. Came back to another podcast. I watched it. and she's talked about she had all this trauma from these war zones that was released through ayahuasca and for me this sounded totally out there but the state i was in like i'll try anything i'll do that okay like and you know i was in the marine so most i really did was drink beer um so this is a whole new adventure for me um so yeah one thing's led to another i had a trip to akitos peru did iawasca in the jungle is a really beautiful the new year new year's eve retreat

the first one they did and it was really amazing to put mildly it was a life-changing experience it shattered my whole reality what I thought it was and when that happened I had to re-revaluate my whole view of what I thought the nature of the universe was or is and okay Luke so what do we do now so this whole view of reality started shifting for me I came back to the state to started working. I can't have came back and forth to Peru. Eventually, like, hey, I want to live the life down here. I want to be down here. I want to live, you know, this kind of adventurous lifestyle. I think it also kind of dovetails well, kind of being a veteran where I'm not living, you know, the normal nine to five job or in a suburb. I'm kind of on the edge out here in the

mountains. I have a motorcycle now. And I'm kind of living this kind of life that's, you know, out of the usual, which, but coming back to where I was, I came back to the States, and as powerful as the experience was of ayahuasca, I noticed when I come back, I start to fade after a while, like three months, six months, and I keep coming back and forth. I always research and other kind of modalities, and I started yoga, which all these things are great, yoga, and different kinds of martial arts, like Tai Chi, and, but then I discovered neural feedback and brain training. And right away, it spoke to me, probably because I had PTSD, but I could admit to it. And being a veteran, and, you know, probably a lot of men like me, we're not going to go see a psychiatrist.

So, but this idea, oh, we just train our brainwaves. Like, okay, that sounds easy. I'll go do that. And it turns out that every brainwave has a signature, and I train my brain to become more efficient. And then I started researching more in this field, but there's marrying. many spiritual applications to brainwave and brainwave training. Every state, it's a brainwave state. And the whole thing came together.

I started going to the conferences. I met my mentor, who he's a Zen Buddhist, master in Zen, and he's a shaman. He's also a neuroscientist. So he kind of combined all these things together. And I know if anyone would go for at the time, like, hey, I want to do brainwave training, QBG brain mapping, and I want to study ayahuasca. He goes, hey, I haven't waited to meet someone like you while training. So, okay.

And it turned out that he was just the right person to meet. And I've been training for five years in the field. I flew down two years ago, and I've been here since living down here. And we've been combining both research elements of neurofeedback training or QEG brain mapping. And we've been doing kind of spiritual brainwave training, too. And so that's kind of the short of the long story, I guess. Man, it's a beautiful story. And it harkens back to this idea that if you're willing to have the courage to become the best version of yourself, your life kind of unfolds for you.

They say that when you're ready, the teacher kind of shows up. But it does take courage to do that. You know, I admire your ability to say, hey, look, I want to change. I want this thing to happen for me and then taking the chance to do it and then getting to see your life unfold. But when I hear the word brain mapping, like that seems like such a broad brush. Like, what does it mean? Like, what does brain mapping mean? Maybe you could break down what that machine is, how it works.

And then from there, you could talk about how you use it in conjunction with ayahuasca. Yeah. So there's different kinds of brain maps. Okay. Most people have heard MRIs and pet scans. What we do is called a QEG. So an EEG is when you see the brainwaves go across the screen, like the, you play fives. seen them in hospitals or maybe seen them on TV, a Q EEG is we put those into a database and it compares

it to hundreds of thousands or a million other maps. And when it compares them, we see everything that's going on the brain. So we know what people look like with anxiety. We know what people look like with depression, head trauma. We know what the performers look like. We know what meditators look like. So in this database, we can see what areas of the brain are dysregulated. So most people that say have anxiety will have fast beta waves.

and the posterior their brain. And once we see those brain waves, we can train them down, basically. But the brain map's kind of the roadmap. It's really an amazing technology. What it is is you put a cap on, it kind of like a swim cap. There's 19 electrodes on it.

You put it on. It takes about 30 minutes. And we read the brain waves. And so what we've been doing is we've been partnering with different retreats. We take a pre-map and a post-map. And this is a very, very valuable tool because many people go through

say an iwask retreat or a watch human retreat and they know they have this powerful experience maybe a spiritual appearance but sometimes well that's just psychological that's just in the mind well then I can show them afterwards like no your brain physically change you create new networks you can see anxiety

and depression lifting and it's very powerful they can see it it's almost you print out it's a it's a manifestation of what they felt and it's a very powerful tool and then from there we can advise them how to integrate like, hey, you know, before, maybe your diet's an issue. Maybe you're sleeping is an issue.

Like, you can see with a brain map, what kind of meditation would be best for somebody? Someone's anxiety, they need open, you know, open focus meditation or someone that, maybe something else, a different type of medication will work. So it's a very powerful tool in many different aspects that can be used. It's so, man, it blows my mind. I think it's an incredible technology. And I'm curious, like, is there a before, a during, and after? and then you can lay those on top of each other

to give even like a bigger picture of what's happening? Yeah, no, exactly. And it's interesting because I'm about to publish my first paper on the topic. Congratulations, man. Yeah, yeah. No, it's really cool. They're really exciting.

So a few years ago, you know, I didn't imagine me doing this. And here I am, we'll publish a paper on it. So it's really neat. But it's a very, like I was saying, so like you were saying, you can keep adding onto it. So you can do a premap, a during map,

during the actual experience. So then at PostMap, and then you can see you do like a, you know, one week, one month, three months afterwards. And ideally, we want more of that data, the more data you have the better because how long, you know, do these experiences last for? How long have these changes in the brain last for?

These are, these data sets really haven't been explored that much. They've explored somewhat questionnaires, but still somewhat limited. But now we can look at the actual brain. Okay, we can see, say, a month out, wow, these changes are sticking in a way that's really amazing. Or maybe some people, they might not stick that long. So we're all in the beginning of stages of that research. And what differentiates between one brain, a different brain, or what brain needs what?

Maybe it's more plant medicines that are better for different kinds of anxiety or depression or different types of symptoms. Yeah, it's fascinating to me. I've been talking a lot about, for some reason, the subject keeps coming up. Maybe it's because I'm supposed to talk about it or something, but it's, seems that for a long time in the Western world, this idea of linguistics as a higher order of thinking has been prevalent when in fact mental imagery is just as important. And when I think about brain mapping and I think about someone who's been on a spiritual journey and then getting to see that image, now they are able to hold that image in their head. And they can think

the thoughts they had during that experience and hold it together with that mental image. It may be a way for them to get back to those states, even when they're not taking a sacrament to get into the heightened state of awareness? Is that something that people can do if they begin to understand how their brain, if they look at that mental image and they look at the brain map and they think the thoughts that they were having during the experience, can they recreate that same sort of neural map? No, I think that's a really good point, that the power of mind, power of thigh is so powerful. it with what we're doing. Over and over again, we're seeing evidence with this, the power of the mind. And really, so much of what we do, like say the neurofeedback side of training, you know,

we just show the brain where to go. The brain learns itself. We really have this beautiful mind, this beautiful structure in the brain. And what we do is the neurofeedback side of things. It's kind of like putting in a mirror for the first time in person's life from their brain going, hey, this is the healthy direction to go. And it wants to go there. It's amazing. And it's when you do this, when I first did it, like, wow, my brain's doing this. I'm not doing this. It's learning how to become more efficient. And at the same time, when we do with this training, we have this deep states train that we do with people, too.

We teach them how, it's called Alpha Theta training. It's famous in the neurofeedback field. This training takes in between the Alpha state and the Theta state. So, Alpha, Theta states are subconscious, beta states consciousness, and alpha is the bridge. So you're kind of going to these hypnagogic states, and a lot of people have very powerful archetypal symbolism, and we talk over with them what about it. And also what we do is we'll go over with people to say that they just did ayahuasca. And the neuro connections after doing ayahuasca or any kind of plant medicine, all those neurons are firing, new pathways are opening, neurogenesis is happening, new axons are forming. So it's this beautiful time, say like a month out, three months after, any time after,

to start like a new practice, like yoga, meditation, you know, Tai Chi, something like that. But we also, our specialty is neurofeedback. So we take people in these states, and when we take people in the states like, hey, I still feel the presence of Ayahuasca, it's speaking to me. You know, I still feel her there. And like, that's exactly what you want it. So when we start discovering this, this was kind of my goal or theory. And then it was confirmed that when we take people to these states, that they can reconnect to that original experience in a deeper way and deepen it and explore it and explore it further. that this isn't just a static experience in the past,

that your spiritual self is always evolving and to keep moving forward in your own spiritual evolution. So it's really cool. Yeah, it's amazing to me. On some levels, it makes me feel, or it makes me think that we're really beginning to have an instruction manual about how to think differently, or maybe this is the next evolution of thinking.

And I know that those are broad, it's a broad brush to paint with, But it seems to me that, you know, when people are in these heightened states of awareness, you begin to process things differently. And the more you become accustomed to or familiar with that environment, the more you can bring back those things from those states, you try applying them in your life. And I think that this technique of brain mapping is an incredible way to make that happen,

to translate that into reality. And you said something earlier that I want to go back to for a moment, and it was the first time that you saw the brain map. Like that's kind of a weird experience. It's like we use our brain to think, but this is the first time you get to see how your brain thinks. It's almost like you're the observer right there. What was that feeling like? No, I, it's always fun because for the first time I show people this, like, here's your brain. They never zoom before.

Or I'll show them their raw brain. waves going across the screen as I'm recording it, like, that's literally your life force. In the way, this is energy medicine. It's going to go through your brain waves. I'm like, oh, wow. It creates, and so much of what we deal with, we think, is just in our heads. I remember I just did someone just recently, and like, hey, you know, sometimes according to your brain map, you might have trouble, like, being, you know, task-oriented or focusing. And he goes, well, I thought I was just a procrastinator. It's just part of my personality.

Like, well, it's in your brain map. You can strain that, and that's not really you. That's just, it's interesting to think about, between mind and brain and who we are. It's very philosophical. So, yeah, so when I first had this experience, it's like, wow, okay. And for me, since I was, I did have PTSD.

Then, oh, there's the pattern. And I made it much less personal. Like, Luke, there's something wrong with you. This is a simple brainway pattern that you can train. better. Like this isn't a deficiency. This is a pattern that you have that, you know, and here are the tools to make it better and make it go away. And that's what I did. You know, I, I've been pulled up this book a lot, but like people I keep talking to, like, there's things that keep happening that, and I'm going to read you. I'm sort of read you this little excerpt in here because it has to go with patterns. And, and I just, I just want to hear what you have to think about it. It's about symbolic meaning and patterns. And it says, what is a pattern? Despite what they say. people do not seek help from a therapist or counselor because they have a problem. People seek help because they realize that without intervention,

the repetitive nature of certain thoughts, feelings, and behaviors will continue over and over. And that sounds a lot like brainwave patterns. That sounds a lot like the actions that we have are the patterns that we have in our brain. And you said, you told that gentleman like, oh, you may have problems with being task oriented because it's your brain pattern. what do you see in the brain mapping that tells you what the pattern, like, how do you translate this person is task oriented problem, having task oriented problems by looking at their brain map? Like is it like a circle and a square in there or is it going this way and that way? Or like what is it? How do you tell that?

Well, there's lots of depth to it, but actually that's a simple pattern. So when you look at a brain map, it breaks it down. You have four or five major brainwaves, delta, theta, alpha, beta. and he have gamma. And so his beta was low. And beta is your concentration brainwave. Beta is your focus brainwave. Beta is what you use for your day-day tasks.

So I saw it was low globally. And I said, well, that patterns associated with, you know, lack of focus or possibly, you know, lack of energy or possibly the goal-orientedness. But it's interesting you mentioned patterns because we become patterns. We're patterned people. And it's so part of what we do in brain training and brain mapping because most people, they're stuck in a pattern.

A thought's a pattern. Anxiety is a pattern. Depression's a pattern. So both brainwave training, I would say psychedelics, it takes a rigid pattern and expands it, blows it up and makes it malleable, makes it plasticistic, brain plasticity. Both these things are doing it. So it makes it from rigid to open. Most people's issues is a pattern of rigidity. be. So we break that pattern and open them up. And that's what psychedelics do. So we're both doing

the same thing in different ways. And they both complement each other so well. And that's what's so interesting about it. It is interesting. It's in it it, it seems like, you know, having one tool to become good, but having two tools or three tools to focus on the same problem is even better. And it you know, I first heard about you through Sebastian who was coming down there and taking some people down there. And he had mentioned that he had done some tours down there without the work that you were doing and then did them with the work you were doing. And he had mentioned it was a whole other dimension of healing, a whole other dimension of understanding when you were able to use the sacrament and the brain mapping together. Is that something that is common for people

that work with you for the first time to be like, well, it's a whole other dimension. No, it's been really fun because at first I wasn't sure how this would be taken. because so many people, like, and I, you know, we always respect the space and that we're never in the ceremony with machines, but still just be around there with technology, you know, and it's kind of like, people go for this. But, you know, we do show the respect. But once we show them what we're doing, they understand they see it, like, oh, okay, I get it. And then once we show them, so speaking of Sebastian's retreat, I mean, we won't publish this data, but we recorded somebody his retreat, and they had ADD, self-reported. And then we saw that pattern of brainwaves. It was like high theta pattern.

So it was like lack of focus. And after the retreat, that brainway pattern was gone. And his self-reported questionnaire, ADD was gone as well. So, I mean, this is a powerful observation we have that. I don't think anyone's really mentioned in the scientific literature. And at first, you wonder, well, how does ayahuasca affects focus? We understand depression, anxiety. But if you think of focus as a trauma response,

and a trauma stops you from focus. And if you start healing trauma to play medicine, then it starts making sense. So with this technology, you were able to gain new insights that maybe were passed over before. Now we'll be able to see new different pattern, new things that people haven't really seen before. And then just the basics, like, hey, are you feeling better? Because it looks like, you know, your brain's more relaxed. Yeah, I feel super relaxed. Okay, that's what we're seeing.

And here's what we're, you know, so it adds confirmation to their experience, which is really neat. Yeah, it is. It's fascinating to me. You know, one thing I've noticed when I, when I take psychedelics is that it allows me to be the observer of my own actions. And I think that being the observer of your own brainwaves like that, it almost gives you a second perspective. And that's what I mean. Like, again, with this book, I'm sorry, but this thing just keep coming up here, man. I like it.

So in symbolic modeling, there are two perceivers of a pattern. This book goes on to talk about how, you know, in any kind of therapy or in integration, there's always two people. There's the person who is talking about the pattern of their life. And then there's usually someone there that's helping them integrate that is also noticing the pattern. And in a way, when you show someone their brain map, the same individual gets to be both of those people. I know that sounds kind of crazy. but you get to be the observer and the individual.

And when you can do that, I think you can make radical changes in your life. And that's what I think of when you talk about the gentlemen who had ADD, or you look at somebody who has PTSD, or you look at somebody who has depression or anxiety. They're solving their own problem by rewiring or the neuroplasticity in their brain. But the tool of brain mapping, I think, is going to become something that is an incredible tool. Like, how can it not?

It provides such a new perspective for people, right? No, I agree. I mean, everyone in the field, it's still a small field that's grown more in the last 10 years, kind of just like psychedelics. But everyone thinks, everyone believes that, you know, one day, this thing's going to catch on and to be big. People are doing, it's such a powerful tool in so many different, you know, aspects. Some people are almost shy even talking about it because it sounds too good to be true. Like, yeah, we can do, we can start out treating epilepsy, people's seizures.

And it can be very powerful at that. But it can also be powerful to train spiritual states, meditation. Yeah. And it can be powerful. But just seeing your map, seeing your brain, seeing who you are, and seeing what's going on, like, hey, I have this pattern, you know, and what do I do to make it better. So a lot of people, I'll say most people here I've just done maps on just to show them what it is. And they don't do any brain training, but they go, like, hey, here's what you can do to help your sleep. Hey, how's your diet? Because I can see through your brain map that, you know, maybe you have a blood sugar issue.

They're like, really? Like, yeah. Or I can say, like, hey, you know, I can see, probably have, you know, some people say, like, can tell that from a brain map. I'm like, yeah, I can see a lot. So it gives them a tool to understand that, you know, how they can improve themselves in different ways. And once again, I think meditation is one thing we always recommend. And then we can see with their brain pattern, like what meditation would be good for you. Because every meditation, some meditations might be good for some people.

And other meditations might be good for another people. So it's really neat. What is, is there like some pushback that you, get like, I'm sure some people are like, hey, man, you can't really do that, or what are some of the biggest criticisms that you get? Well, I think some people just kind of don't know where it is, first of all, like brain mapping, what is that? You know, we're kind of just hippies here to play medicine and stuff.

But once I explain to people, it's really cool that I get that, the response. And some people, you know, kind of, one interesting response, like sometimes you guys, is what people say, well, you know, I don't want to know. Like, I don't want to know what's going on my brain. I just want Ayahuasca's spiritual experience. And that's it. Like, okay, we have to remember, though, that this doesn't take away the mystery. You know, this is just a simple tool.

I think this deepens the mystery. And if you look at the ancients, you know, it was like mystery with capital of lamb, like Greeks. Like, this is something to be sacred. And when we can take a brain map, like, we're not telling everything about yourself. Like, I don't know, like, every spiritual part of your soul. but this is a tool to allow you to see deeper into what's happening and make sure it become more fun and more interesting.

So that's kind of some of the stuff I get. But one thing I want to say too, because you mentioned patterns. I was thinking about this because this is important. I want to bring it up. So many people get caught in a pattern and a pop pattern. And really what I've discovered in this work, and my mentors mentioned to me that we don't solve things with a conscious mind. It's always our self-conscious.

below that conscious mind. And this, when you take people in these deep states or maybe a meditative state, especially these hypogotic states or psychedelic states, allows their subconscious to come through, allows them to kind of a youngian individuation, that conscious mind and a subconscious meat. And it's almost like untwisting knots. So when people have these issues, often you can't think yourself through that. And I noticed that with me, because I was trying to find direction in my life,

and I just start doing the brainwave training just to heal myself, just to like, you know, help myself with anxiety. And I started noticing, I started going to these deeper states and like, oh, Luke, hey, you know, these ideas will come forth. You know, how do I make this work? How do I apply this? You know, how do I, you know, bring this to other people? You know, what aspect does this have psychedelic?

So I think it's important thing to keep in mind that always keep in mind, you're more than your conscious mind. Your conscious mind is this little part in the frontal cortex, but we're this deeply, deeply complex, you know, mind and soul altogether. What, like, is there a relationship between patterns and frequencies when you look at this sort of imaging or brain maps? Yeah, so it's interesting because everything, everything we are is, you know, frequencies really in the universe. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm just studying one side of it, the brain's frequency. but every atom vibrates and all music. And so the powers of frequencies with healing and musical healing and tones.

And it's very impressive. But so, yeah, that's what we do. We study the relationship between frequencies, brain frequencies, and the patterns that people have. And it could be simple things. It could be like, hey, you know, this frequency means you have head trauma, or some kind of inflammation. This frequency means that you're, you've been,

meditating for a long time. Good job, you know. So these things, all, all these patterns that are linked. And mind and brain, there's no real separation. They're both can't, the one is linked to another, and they kind of interflow with each other. I'll say the same thing with your soul. And we're still exploring that, but I think, you know, what we're gleaning from plant medicines in this research, There's these powerful states that we can't, I can't brain map, say, like, the visions that you have during the experience that can see that something happened and that you're affected and you're changed. So I can see that. So it's very interesting, like what we can see, what we can't see, and where the future may go. Yeah.

I'm wondering, like, you know, when I think about different cultures, I live down in Baja, California for a while at a surf camp. And it was just, it was out of the middle of nowhere. And it was just such a different world to me. It was so beautiful in so many ways. And then I'm wondering, is it possible? Like, what if you just hooked up, say, someone from South America versus someone who lives in New York City? Do you think there's different patterns in those people's brainwaves? Could you see that as our cultural differences going on in brainwaves at a baseline?

Yeah. So this is also an interesting topic in the field. Good question. So most brains, they do. So one, it was discussed, beginning of brain mapping, like, well, are we going to have different databases for people in the United States, people in China, people, and different parts of the world? It turns out, like, our fundamental humanity is very similar, and all these brain databasees work. Now, what we see, though, is when we see kind of like disorganized patterns, I think we'll see different things, different places. I think we see different things, different, I've heard, so I've been around us a lot, but I've talked to people in the field.

you know each decade you might see different patterns you know um i think now we see a lot is a really people have really busy minds they can't slow down this constant thinking it's constant working of their brain and in many ways it's kind of a trauma response when you're always busy you're always thinking it it you're not feeling you're not feeling that pain you're not feeling that trauma you're not feeling something like that but also i think with the overstimulation with phones and you know everything like that that people can't really settle down so we're seeing this pattern now, but I think we probably saw different patterns, like maybe 10, 20 years ago, too. I figure what they were. I know there was kind of different patterns that were more commonly

seen. And I say, for example, in the countryside in Peru or the mountains, you don't have that constant stimulation. And I'd also wonder, people in the West were always either like looking at a TV or a classroom or things like this, were always kind of visually focused on something. But, you know, in the mountains, when I visit these little villages, they look at horizons and distances. And there's different patterns for that, how that affects their focus and the brain and things like that. Yeah. You know, and it brings up so many other interesting avenues of exploration. Like, you know, what if we could take the, a handful of artists and look at their brainwaves versus a handful of mathematicians and look at their brains? Or

what if we could take someone who's in love and look at their brainwaves? Are those things that possible to see yeah no i think um you know some people in the field it's really like they specialize in like opera performers and they specialize just in that and that's like that's all they do is they work with that training to make them the best they can so yeah a lot of neural feedback they use it for um just regulating and get rid of depression anxiety but so much of the fields for performers and this is more and more for CEOs the last conference i was at like there was people from every sport from the NFL. Yeah.

And it was amazing because these people, I remember one guy who's a NASCAR driver, and he goes from the middle of the pack with Brainway Trave, and after three months, he was one of the top guys, you know. So it's really, it can really put you on top of the fields of people are looking, because you can make any brain better,

any brain more efficient. Well, all those networks are connecting, and everything's working better. You can make anything better. So, yeah, I think the future is really bright and interesting. So this brings up another avenue that I've been talking about. You know, it seems so long,

and I'm hopeful that we're on the cusp of doing this, but it seems for a long time modern medicine has been focusing on neurodegenerative diseases. They've been focusing on sick people. Like our entire method of medicine is like, let's look at all these sick people. But what if we start looking at people that are performing at the highest level? And it kind of sounds like that's the avenue that we're beginning to turn towards,

is this idea of magnifying the human experience, this idea of optimization. And when you begin to optimize, that automatically brings up the people from the bottom, at least to the middle. Do you see maybe your profession moving in that direction or medicine moving in that direction? Yeah.

So I think there's so much into modern medicine, how it works and the structures and how it's paid and stuff like this. I remember hearing in Chinese medicine that, you know, if you go to China, that you pay the doctor when you're well, when you get sick, you stop paying them. you know, and then until I get better, then you start paying up again. But I think that's a really good point because I don't think we look at the human experience

as like you're just not feeling well or you're good. You know, like, and I think modern psychology, modern medicine, they just try to get people back to a 9 to 5 job and working and functional. And like that's not necessarily a measurement of, you know, health. especially if you look at what's the goal of Zen, what's the goal of different kinds of spiritual methods. We want to advance everybody as far as possible. And for me, neurofeedback is like when people come in,

they have anxiety or pressure. My first thing I want to do is we regulate the brain, train the brain for three months. So those symptoms are gone. But I always encourage people, hey, there's no upper limit. We can train these deep states. We can train meditation. And my favorite part,

these deep hypnagogic states. I was talking about alpha data because you don't have the subconscious. You see your own soul reflect back at you and so much fun. There's no end of that. You don't do that forever and you don't want to get lost in those places, but you learn from it. You want to grow from it. And then that was, you know, for young, that was the whole point of life, this individualization process. So I think, yeah, I think as you raise everyone up, it's kind of raised people up, everyone kind of comes up like you said. I think that's really insightful. Yeah, I'm really amazed.

And I just have this feeling like we are on the cusp of a future that's not only beautiful, more beautiful than you imagine, but more beautiful than you can imagine. Maybe it's because of the people I'm talking to. And maybe it's because I see these virgining technologies and the people behind them that are doing something. And there's another pattern I've noticed that is, it seems to me a lot of people I've been speaking to, like yourself, are at the forefront. of moving things forward because they were the people that were affected by the thing that they're solving. Like you had PTSD.

What role do you think this thing played in your, like you had this thing and you fixed it and you got better. And now you're optimizing. And now it's like you want to give back. What role do you think that plays in how good you are at helping other people? Well, for one, I'm really grateful this technology exists. because I mean if had PTSD from the Vietnam Wars, say in the 60s or 70s, they were in a whole lot of alternatives. And I was in a really, really rough state.

I mean, the day-to-day was very challenged to me. And so I'm just so grateful that I healed through this. So, sorry, where was the rest of the question? Well, so I was just saying, you know, the fact that you found a way to solve this problem outside of the box and now you're the practitioner of this thing. Like, do you think that having the experience that you're helping people solve is an important part of being a person who can solve it? I know that's kind of out there a little bit, but...

No, it's huge. I've thought about this because I knew something was wrong, like 10 years ago after a deployment. I didn't know what. I felt like had sustained anxiety. I didn't know what anxiety was. There's no definition for it. And once I figured that what it was, I'm like, I don't really have that. I'm fine.

But it's not to come out of that consciousness. It's going to reflect back. Like, Luke, you had some serious issues. All I knew was something was wrong. And at the time, though, I didn't want to go to, I mean, I was kind of on the path to natural health even back then. I didn't want to go the prescription drug route. So I was searching everywhere, anywhere I could for an alternative. And I tried everything out, you know, everything out.

And this is the one thing that really helped me out. So when people are suffering, I had this past experience. Like I've tried all these things. This is a powerful tool. And I think in a spiritual level, being the Marines and the military, I wasn't very sympathetic to other people suffering. I wasn't very sympathetic to people that are down and out. I always thought, like, hey, just tough through it and get your teeth and get through it.

But there's certain things that happen to you that physically your brain structures are not allowing you to, you know, think alternative paths. I mean, we can see when trauma happens that there's, you lose these connections in your brain your frontal cortex to think of alternatives. And there's all these downstream effects to how trauma affects a person. So when you heal the brain, you heal these structures, it allows you to become more creative and be in charge of your life instead of being a victim. I never, never felt like a victim.

But at the same time, I could not get past where it was at. not find my own path. And I think for so many people, I think it's a common effect of trauma, they lose their own path, they lose their way, lose their direction. And for many years, this is probably my greatest concern, more than concern, it ripped me up inside. I felt like I was completely lost. And finally, to be back to a path and never a path I was expecting, like I was in the room for infantry. Now I'm in this path of medicine, it's healing. So, but it's been really rewarding. So I'm really glad.

Yeah, I am too. You know, I'm a huge fan of the experience is what makes you the expert. And there's been a lot of people in a lot of fields that are probably really great people, but they've never had the experience that they're trying to heal people from. And I'm not saying they can't heal them, but it does seem like there's another dimension to someone who's had the experience and then they know how to help someone else because they've been through it and they can see it on a level that someone who hasn't been through. it can't, you know? When you're talking about patterns and looking for solutions and changing

the way we think, I'm often reminded of an old friend that I had whose father had a stroke, lost the ability to talk, but then taught himself how to talk again. And when I started asking my friend about that, he said he went through all this therapy and I started reading up on it because it was just so amazing to me. And from what I read, it was like, oh, he had to create new neural pathways in order to teach himself how to do it again. And that seems to be the same. And that seems to be the same thing that's happening to people who go through major traumas, whether it's losing a child or some PTSD or depression. Like, they have, that trauma has shut out that part of the brain, the same way blood flow would shut out that part of the brain. And now you've got to go back

and figure out how to rejigger it or how to create those new neural pathways in order to bring back the patterns of positive thinking or bring back the patterns of communication that can get you to a good spot. And this, this marriage of brain mapping and sacraments, they're beautiful. And I'm thankful for it. And I know that's kind of a mouthful. And I'm segueing to another question here. So bear with me, Luke. So we've talked about the brain map and we've talked about the neuroplasticity. And we've talked about the sacraments. What role does spirituality have to play in this? Well, the more I'm in this and the older I get, I think spirituality has everything to do with everything. Yeah.

It can't be avoided. But even the simplest things, when someone overcomes their anxiety or like your friend's father, you're talking about Kentucky, that's a spiritual moment. You might not think of it as like, you know, a classical spiritual experience, but that's a spiritual experience that that person can function have their life back and like the function at a higher level. That's a huge deal. For someone that, you know, they can overcome their anxiety, can be more, play with their children and, you know, go out and do things instead of being locked off. That's a huge, that itself is a spiritual experience. And I think we look at ourselves as in-sold individuals.

I think you're talking earlier about this future, this bright future. I really think that the 21st century, the century of consciousness, because before we always look at the human beings as a mere chemical constructs, but we're going to look like yours, and we're going to find evidence of this. I think we're already finding evidence of this. But so far, the mainstream has ignored it, but we are in sold individuals, personal individuals. I think that things that we think it was kind of out there, you know,

become a common knowledge, maybe like auras and things like this. So I think spirituality, our spiritual being, spiritual sense of self has everything to do with it. And I think from a whole life, no one really told me how to, how to take care of your spiritual health, your soul health, your soul upkeep. That's a very important part. You have your physical body, but also have your soul body. And how do you take care of that?

What do you do? I think it's all important parts about who we are. I think that's become much, much more important as we go on. I think, you know, there's so many tools out there and what we do is this one aside of that. But that's what we love to work with. There's so many parts of neurofeedback, but we work with the soul side, the spiritual side of it. Yeah, it sounds like the Sacred Valley has been working on you a bit down there. It's got to be, I mean, I'm in Hawaii.

And it's just so beautiful here. And you can't help become a different person. You know, there's no billboards that are on the freeway. There's no, you know, there's no, there's no flashing lights of pornographic advertisements. just banging on your door all day there, you know, and you're allowed to have your own thoughts, and you're allowed to be surrounded by beauty. And I think when that happens, I think part of you changes. Like you get back to a better understanding that you don't really come into this world. You come out of it. You're part of it. And I'm wondering, how is, how is being down there

affected your outlook on who you are and how you interact in this world? Well, another interesting question. So when I first came to, down here for me just being down here was healing to be away from the hustle and bustle to be away from the billboards you're talking about the lights i would i would you know i was living the jungle for a while deep jungle with shaman's and no electricity no nothing but it was some of the greatest times of my life um just doing that and it was wild because you were trying iwaska three times a three times a week and there wasn't much to do but you know the jungle's crazy you know like i was everything, anacondas, bulk constructors,

trancholas, you know, all kinds of stuff. He's kind of living around that. I think humanity, when we've detached from nature and piled in the cities, wasn't healthy for us. And I think constantly we need to look for ways to get back to nature. I think you see it in some ways in like parks and stuff in the cities, but really get down to the wild,

which I've had an opportunity to do in Peru, has been as healing as any plan. medicine you know like I'm I live in the secret valley I live in this really special place and I love it and I can do plant medicines whenever I want pretty much which is nice but I don't even do them that much anymore because I don't feel like at a need like it used to sometimes but I also have these beautiful hiking trails everywhere in these mountains and I'll hike to these and the Andes I mean these are tall mountains up here so like the tallest mountains in Colorado about 14,000 but

like the tallest mounds here are 25,000 So it's a whole range. And like I said, I have a motorcycle now. So now I go up these mountain roads and explore and being out nature, being outside. And I also think just being with different kind of people and how they think, you know, everyone, it seems not everyone, but a large amount of the people in Western society are always going this way and that way and worry about this and that. And, you know, my girlfriend, she has Animal Sanctuary, and we had a, for this huge lot, we're plowing with bulls. We brought a couple people over. We were plowing the field.

And I sit out with them afterwards because after they do that, they drink chicha, which is a local alcohol drink made from corn. And I'm sitting with them and looking at the mountains. And everything just really slows down. And I'm just enjoying this moment. Like, wow, this is really nice. So I think slowing down, enjoying the moment, enjoying all those moments of life has to offer. Like, this is what the cigarette valleys on for me. And I really, I'm eternally grateful for it. I'm also grateful for the people I've met. Like, he says, Sebastian, who I met down here,

in turn, have met you through him. So that's been amazing as well. Yeah, I really think that there's some things you can only uncover when you begin to slow down. And so much of the busyness is just this artificial, sometimes I think it's fear. The fear of having to think about things forces you to do frivolous things. Maybe there's, let me ask you, that's an interesting avenue too. Is there a pattern of fear that you can see in people's brains? Yeah, I think trauma itself is usually kind of a fear response at some level at these deep brain structures. And we see the brain waves, like the residual, you know, because all the brainwaves are basically, you know, billions or trillions of cells all fire at once.

So we're seeing kind of how these structures fire. We're seeing kind of residual effect of it. But yeah, I think fear is a deeply inherent trait and trauma. And for me, I never thought myself was afraid, but something affected me, something deep down affected, like that part of my brain structure. And then your body becomes fight or flight. So then it shuts down some other brain structures because of a constant fight or flight mode. And this isn't a conscious response.

And so many people think, oh, you know, just will yourself out of this. Well, it's not conscious. You can't rule yourself out of a brain pattern that's forced you to be a certain way. You know, you always work on things and be the best you can be. But a lot of times, a brain pattern you're working with. So, yeah, there's a lot to it. Yeah, I was talking to Sebastian, too, just about we were geeking out on different, you know, heightened states of awareness. And a question I had posed to him that I'll pose to you is, you know, sometimes when you find yourself on a really big,

big journey, whether it's through ayahuasco or, you know, LSD or mushrooms for me, is you see these really abstract geometric patterns. And like, like for me, I began wondering, man, is this some sort of a coding pattern? Like what, what if this geometric pattern could be mapped onto a brainwave? And I know brainwaves are maybe like the waves, but maybe you could see some firing neurons. Is it, have ever thought about like the images that you see as a code? pattern for the brain? Well, they are.

And I'm not sure of our technology's advanced to see kind of that detail, but we can see when the visual network is firing up and things like this. We can see when they see things like that. But these patterns that we see, there's so much to them because you have to wonder, like, is this our consciousness reflecting back at ourselves? We're looking beyond ourselves. And I've been there before. Look at these patterns and wondering what is it all about, you know?

I remember being in the jungle the first time doing ayahuasca, and I was on this, it was like, so it floods in the area. So it was this Maloka, and all the walkways are in wooden stilts 20 feet up. This is really surreal experience just in itself during the night, and I'm walking out. And I purge over the side, and I see the whole earth open up. And when I'm purged, I see this black fluid come into, like fall into the earth, like a thousand miles in the earth.

And I had this overwhelming sense of the, earth accepting it like all this dark energy that I built up in me accepting it and taking it itself and taken away from me and the experience happens and like well how is that just a hallucination this is very complex right yeah and then you know I'll see the shaman I'll see him like energy come out of him and heal people across the room and I see these geometric patterns there and I'm wondering like what is that you know this It's something, a special visionary site you have when you're on these medicines. And do the yogis of old and these people have this trained or some people born with this kind of site?

You know, it's very interesting in these patterns. I agree. I don't know the whole end of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a, and it doesn't happen all the time. But there's been times where, you know, once it's probably enough for people. But, you know, it's so fascinating.

just to look back and try to think about what these patterns mean. And I came up on that idea of like, maybe it's some sort of language or maybe it's some sort of code. And I'm sure other people have had these ideas, but it's really a good meditation because you can hold on to that image forever. It's almost like it's always there to look back on. It just changes the nature of relationships. And sometimes I think that that's what those geometric patterns do

is they give you the opportunity to see the world around you from a different perspective because you're focusing on this abstract pattern. You're like, why is it over there? And then I started thinking, why am I doing this? And I'm like, oh, maybe that's what is telling me. Yeah, yeah. Well, then you worry, you know, the plant medicines, you start wondering about the motives of the plants you're with and what their intentions

are. And, you know, as much as, you know, like, I know what mine are, but, you know, does this plant have intentions? And what kind of business is showing me, you know? So I think it's a very complex. And then you have shamanism thrown at the mix. and it gets even more complex. So, yeah, I think the whole thing is fascinating.

I think, oh, the East, I remember reading how some spiritual traditions, when you close your eyes, people see different patterns and colors. And they have theories for each one, like different colors and patterns, and I never got in depth with it. But people have thought about, like, these things do mean something. There's depth to that. And when we do alpha theta sessions, we take people in these subconscious states. They might just see a color, but that color itself has meaning.

So there's meaning to all this stuff. And so, like, I really feel like we're beginning to uncover or rediscover a lot of things that that we knew in the past or that we're relearning some truths that are really going to help us in the future become better. What about, I'm curious about, have you ever done, like, generational mapping, like, maybe like a father and then a son or a daughter and a, you know, is there a, I'm wondering, is that possible to see similar patterns or would you see similar patterns? or would you see similar patterns in that? Or would that be helpful for generational trauma? No, I haven't done it myself. That would be interesting.

I should have more work on that. But I know there's definitely generational patterns. One famous one is like, you know, alcoholics, you know, people and born and family with alcoholism. Usually say there's a person with alcoholism in the family, you know, siblings or, you know, children might have that same brain pattern. So often alcoholism is probably genetically related. and that brain patterns genetically related.

And usually when people have addictions, I see this time and time again, they're trekking for a rain pattern. So people that are cocaine or stimulants, they're trekking for like an under aroused brain. They're trying to bring the power levels up. You know, people that alcoholism, you know, you often have like a busy mind or trying to slow things down.

So each, everyone's addiction is kind of like you're self-medicating with their addiction. What I noticed. Yeah. It's interesting because they are self-medicating with plant derivatives. It's almost like we've gotten away from the actual plants that can help you do it. They're just using the wrong ones, you know, or they're using the right ones and maybe a wrong methodology. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. We have these poor substitutes often. Or right, maybe they're using right plan on the wrong methodology. or I think we've just lost total connection with that kind of spiritual experience in the modern modern society. And I think for here, you know, coca leaves are highly spiritual plant. And all the shamans, the mountains, they hold the three leaves up. They call the Apu's.

Each mountain has a spirit. They bless them. And this is highly, yeah, it's a very part of their culture. And then in the West, make cocaine out of it. So, yeah, I think we need to rethink one that, in a way, every moment is opportunity, a spiritual moment, and that there isn't like your life at church, your life back, or even, you know, your life in an ayahuasca ceremony, your other life, like all your life, we're all spiritual beings. And in some moments might be more visceral, but doesn't mean other moments aren't as important.

Yeah. You know, I'm curious because I know. know that, you know, a lot of the ayahuasca renaissance has kind of been happening and all of a sudden it's making its way to the West. And is there a, is there a, like a resentment or is there some sort of hostility or is everything okay? How do you think the people where you live feel about ayahuasca being moved into different parts of the world or is there any feeling at all? Oh, yeah, that's a complex issue. I think even for people that live down here. And I think it depends on the person. For one, I think tourism has been healthy. I was a tourism down here,

money, but also money is corrupting. A lot of these tribes literally have had nothing. I've been with them. Like literally there's a roof over the heads and that's it. And the mosquitoes come in and sting them and stuff. And then Westerners start coming down and bringing like tons of money, lots of thousands of dollars to have these experiences. And all of a sudden, you know, like, create some weird situations I've seen as well. I also think that there's different debates among communities, like is this our indigenous medicine or is this meant for other people? And only should we be doing it and serving it? Because now Westerners are serving it and Westerners are turning to shamans.

And there's kind of debates on that as well. But I think if you look at the past, if you think it'll look at peyote, This wasn't traditionally in many parts of North America, I moved over time. So I think in world cultures, you do see transitions. You do see different times and places. And I think, and it sounds out there for a lot of people, but I think the plants have intentions as well. Yeah. A lot of people say that, you know, Iowaska wants to help save humanity or save the planet.

I'm not sure Iowaska's intentions, but I've definitely had interesting experiences. My first Iwaster retreat, of four, the guys, including myself, were Marines of 12 people. There's, there's chances of that we're just so minuscule, and they say the ayahuasca brings these groups together before they didn't come down. And yeah, I believe it. How does that happen? So I think there's a lot, a lot to it. I think that's kind of what this whole process is. We're all working through this and figuring it out. I'd love to hear the idea about the planet's intentions, because I think there's a lot of truth to that. I believe wholeheartedly in spirit and the planet.

and intentions. And I was just talking to a gentleman yesterday in Oregon who, you know, they have decriminalized mushrooms and they also had decriminalized marijuana. And he was telling, we were talking about some of the differences and similarities between the two and what could become things. And we've begun talking about cannabis. And he had mentioned that there's like, he goes, there's this race to the bottom in cannabis now. Like everyone keeps lowering their prices. And, you know, it's on some level, it's tough because there's these people that have really become good craftsmen and they should get paid a fair amount. for it. And on the other hand, you know, that, you know, there's people that have this

backlog of product and they just want to move it so they sell it. But it made me start thinking about the plant's intentions. And I'm like, maybe the plant doesn't want to be sold. Maybe it wants everybody to have it. You know what I mean? And I, and then I translate that to the, to some of the other plant medicines. Like when we look at mushrooms and we see these pharmaceutical companies that are racing for patents and people that tend to try to get a lot of money behind something, tend to, I see them failing. And I think maybe that has to do with the plant's intentions a little bit. What do you think? Yeah, I think anytime you're around an environment like this, you have the people don't come in and make a quick buck. And you have your sincere people that want to heal. And I think you have both

sides of it. I think it's been around forever. Yeah, maybe it's a little more so in modern society. I think maybe have that. I think it's always realized that there's always been that side of humanity, whether it's light or dark or greed and good. And that's something that we always to deal with. And even the valley, you know, like, okay, that guy's for real. I'm like, okay, that guy's a little weird. I'm not sure about him. He's going to have, you know, is he really, is he really a spiritual guy? Yeah. So, yeah. So you have, you have this everywhere. I think that's kind of as part of the human experience. Now, interesting thing about the planet, you know, maybe it's using the guy just trying to get it out there, you know, maybe he's the guy that they

wanted, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I think, I think, I think, aside for everybody in these places like the craftsmen i think the craftsmen always um have their market because people value those kind of people and i see them here i meet a good craftsman we're a good shaman or a guy that just whatever is you know some guys make um dmt you know to snort up different plants in the valley and i don't know no idea how they do it but like i have a lot of respect for whatever they do to figure it out so yeah yeah i think people that craftsmen i think will always have a special place. Yeah.

And I, maybe it's a, maybe it's a, maybe it's a we need both people. You know, you need, you need the innovators and you need the sales guy and you need the money for the other things. And in some level, they're probably all part of the same thing anyway. It's all part of the same system, right? If we look at, you know, consciousness, you know, increasing or rising, you know, we don't know, right. What all those parts are going to be, all these many parts, you know.

But I think overall, it's over time, it's, you know, it's, you know, It's going the right direction. So I think that's, maybe it's the part of faith, too, in it. Like, yeah, I have faith that things will be better and that consciousness is raising and that, you know, this system, you know, is looking to alternatives because so many people look at, you know, are stuck in this medical system or something else. And all of a sudden they try it. Maybe it's from the craft center, maybe the cheap stuff or whatever.

But they had experienced to change their lives and they could tell other people experience. And that's a good thing. Yeah. That's one thing I really love about. talking to people in this space and seeing this space emerge and sort of begin to rise the tide is rising it seems and there's so many different avenues and there's so many different little fractal places that someone this person can find they can find surrender down this aisle or someone else can find peace over here you know and there's there's all kinds it's almost endless where you can find the answers to a problem you may have and it's it's really beautiful to me and i'm i'm really thankful to to get to see it and to talk to people that are doing it like you and exploring new territories and helping people. And I got to say, Luke, conversation has exceeded all of my expectations. I'm hopeful that one time I can come down there and shake your hand and check this whole thing out,

you know, and I would love to come down there. But before I let you go, Luke, where can people find you and where can they maybe learn more about what you're doing? My website, neuroenlightenment.com, where people should go. And basically, we partner with retreats to an ayahuasca, but we also do remote training. So say you want to just train in the States, we can mail you a neurofeedback unit and say, like, you want to create your meditation brainwaves

or work on an issue that you're dealing with. We can do that. Also, we do integration. So people come and do ayahuasca, and we send them with a home unit and they go home, and we keep the work going. So it's been really fun, really rewarding. And eventually we're into retreats, but we'll probably keep in touch about that.

And we'll be on our website. Yeah, that's awesome. I would recommend everybody go there. Do your own homework. Check it out and then reach out to Luke over there at neuroenlightment.com. And I really think that you're on to something that is going to be exploding in the future. And I really love the way it maps on to the traditional. And it's just this beautiful merger of technology and biology.

And I'm really thankful to get that you spend some time with me. today, Luke. Appreciate it. Yeah, appreciate it. Like you said, anyone's into research side of things. Let me know because we're really into that. And any veterans out there, feel free to reach out to me because that's a community that I really like talking to. And thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Pleasures all mine, man. Hang on one more second. I'm going to shut it down, but I wanted to talk to you real quickly after. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for everything. Check out Luke. He's an amazing guy. He's doing amazing things. His links will be down on the show notes. And that's all we got

for the day, ladies and gentlemen, aloha.