TrueLife - Lyubov Yusufova - And Now….Yoga

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/What happens when the rigor of neuroscience meets the mysticism of ancient yogic traditions? My guest today, Lyubov Yusufova, stands at the fascinating crossroads of science and spirituality, embodying a rare synthesis of these two worlds. A Doctor of Psychology candidate at the California Institute of Integral Studies—an institution renowned for bridging Eastern and Western wisdom—Lyubov’s journey is as groundbreaking as it is profound.Her academic roots run deep, with studies at NYU and Columbia University in behavioral neuroscience. Yet, it was a transpersonal experience in Botswana that shattered the confines of traditional scientific inquiry, propelling her into the uncharted territory of mystical states of consciousness. This path led her to a Kriya Yoga ashram, where she was initiated into an ancient practice designed to awaken the Kundalini and dissolve the veil of ego, what Rumi poetically describes as the barrier between humans and the divine.Lyubov’s groundbreaking research on the psychotherapeutic mechanisms of these mystical states has been presented at institutions like Harvard Medical School and the International Science of Consciousness Conference. As a highly intuitive healer, she bridges clinical psychology, ceremonial plant medicine, and mindfulness traditions, redefining the landscape of modern mental health.Today, we delve into her remarkable journey—a journey of breath, ego dissolution, and the transformative power of consciousness.http://linkedin.com/in/lyubovyusufovahttps://www.lyubovyusufova.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearers through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Friday. We made it. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing.

I hope the wind is at your back. I have a question for everybody today. Are you listening right now? Listen up, everybody. Let me ask you this. What happens when the rigor of neuroscience meets the mysticism of ancient yogic traditions? My guest today, Lubav Yusufova, stands at the fascinating crossroads of science and spirituality, embodying a rare synthesis of these two worlds,

a doctor of psychology candidate at the California Institute of Integral Studies, an institution renowned for bridging Eastern and Western wisdom. Lubov's journey is as groundbreaking as it is profound. Her academic roots run deep with studies at NYU and Columbia University and behavioral neuroscience. Yet it was a transpersonal experience in Botswana that shattered the confines of traditional scientific inquiry, propelling her into the uncharted territory of mystical states of consciousness.

This path led her to a creative yoga ashram, where she was initiated into an ancient practice, designed to awaken the kundalini and dissolve the veil of ego, what Rumi poetically describes as the barrier between humans and the divine. Lubov's groundbreaking research on the psychotherapeutic mechanisms of these mystical states has been presented at institutions like Harvard Medical School and the International Science of Consciousness Conference. As a highly intuitive healer, she bridges clinical psychology, ceremonial plant medicine, and mindfulness traditions, redefining the landscape of modern mental health.

Today we delve into her remarkable journey, a journey of breath, ego dissolution, and the transformative power of consciousness. Lubov, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm wonderful, George. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that you are here. You and I got to have a brief discussion at the Silesibin San Francisco conference not too long ago, put on by the incredible Malika. It was a great conference. I'm stoked to see you there. But this is an opportunity for us to go a little bit deeper. And just do that. So I'm going to just jump right in right here. I've, I've been thinking about this for a little while. And I have one question to lead off. I know that there's some questions stacking up in the chat out here. But I will just start off with this one right here, Rubab. And that is, what initially drew you to the intersection of psychology and mysticism? Was there like a pivotal moment that shifted your perspective? Yeah. Well, it was definitely my experiences at the ashram because, um, I mean, before the ashram, I was kind of very much in psychonaut culture.

So I was using psychedelics for seeking and for healing. I mean, the two are kind of intertwined anyway. But I think when I saw kind of what I saw at the ashram really surprised me in how similar people's experiences during deep states of meditation were to psychedelic experiences. And I think what surprised me most was just that deep states of meditation at a spiritual retreat like an ashram would be so psychological that there would be this, that it would take people to the deepest, darkest parts of themselves that they had to confront in order to prepare their bodies and minds for higher states of consciousness.

I think we normally don't associate mystical states, transcendence with darkness. We associate it with bliss and awe and all of that. And I think seeing how, you know, how that was not the case at all, you know, existential psychologist, Rolo May, he criticized transpersonal psychology saying that it's, that in pursuit of the transcendental, we neglect the dark side of human nature. But that's not, that wasn't what I saw at the ashram. And that's not what we see in psychedelic therapy. either. You actually, those states of consciousness actually become more available to you when you confront the darkness and the shadow. So yeah, I think just seeing how I was just surprised by how psychological, how healing mystical states are. Yeah, it's fascinating to think about that.

You know, when I think about the darkness, I think about trauma. I think about shame. I think about fear and like those are very difficult places for an individual to explore but it seems at least in my personal experience that where you stumble is where you find the gold and those dark spots is those places you're afraid to look is usually where you find the answer right totally and yeah i mean in yoga um when you enter deeper and deeper states of meditation and the kundalini energy, which is a dormant serpent-like energy that sits at the base of the spine starts to awaken and rise, it begins to clear the noughties, which are energy channels in our energy body that are blocked by traumatic conditioning.

And so it's very much, yeah, it's very much like one has to clear and work through the trauma and the, because we all have these karmic imprints or somers, which are just our unconscious mental impressions, latent tendencies, residues from past experiences. And but in psychology, we just call this conditioning or, or psychological imprints, traumatic imprints. But those need to be worked through in order for one to access higher states of consciousness. And that is, that is the path to liberation. You spoke a little bit about being at the ashram, but maybe you could paint us a bigger picture. what was your experience in Botswana like? How did you decide to go there? Like, you're just like, I was going to go to Botswana.

Like, how did that trip even begin there? Before we start digging into maybe some of the revelations, maybe you could begin at the beginning. Like, were you called to be there? Was it something that was sort of like in your peripheral imagination? Or how did that transpire? Yeah, well, the answer, like, is always, yeah, the cosmic forces drew me there for a reason.

but yeah I was I was drawn to I was I was like the Lion King is still my favorite movie of all time and it was and that's why I was I was very drawn to African wildlife so and you know I read that Botswana is like it has kind of you know with all the issues. with wildlife conservation, they've kind of managed to preserve the most wildlife at this point. And so that's where I wanted to go. But, you know, I wasn't whatsoever expecting to have any profound experience. It was just to go see African wildlife. And at that point, I was doing neuroscience research on mice. you know, using mouse models to understand depression and PTSD. Yeah, and then I think just being deep in the African wilderness,

I saw myself as, I felt alive for the first time in my life, like seeing myself as a tiny part of such a vast, and interconnected existence that is timeless made me in awe of life for the first time. And it's just this deep sense of humility and perspective that you get when you're when you're in a place that's not, that hasn't been touched by mankind. It really impacts you on a deep existential level. And that was kind of at the time I didn't know it was a trans personal experience. I didn't have the language for it.

But it definitely was my first one. And I, the plane ride, the plane, the flight back home, I was in tears. I was like, I don't want to go back to, you know, it's like when you have your kind of first spiritual awakening and you realize your whole life is a lie. And that's what I was experiencing. I was like my whole life is a lie, like this mouse research, like, what am I doing? This is meaningless. And so I didn't want to go back. I didn't want to go back home.

I didn't want to go back to my job. I did. And I was fighting it. I fought it for like three years. I was like, no, I'm just going to, this was just an experience and I need to get over it. But then, but then I was still on the path. And once you're on the path, you only go deeper and deeper. I love that.

It makes me want to cry a little bit. Like I, I know it. Like, I've felt it. It's really, it's emotional. It makes me feel like once you've seen something, you can't unsee it. You know, like once you get a new shirt, get a new car, once you get something new in your left, you see it everywhere. But it's a little bit different when you see your life as the way,

you were living as a giant misguided lie. Like that is a hard one to really sit with because you have all these reasons to not believe. Well, what about this relationship? What about this thing that I did? What about this research that I'm doing? Like, that was important, right? And part of you's like, not really. Not really, man.

You're just, these are distractions. Like, how do you, you talk about crying on the plane ride home? Like, how do you integrate something like that? Like, you were, like, you did awesome work, man. you were going to some great schools, you were lined up with some great companies, you had to build some beautiful relationships. What do you mean that was a lie? And like, how do you integrate something like that?

That's gargantuan. Yeah. I mean, these are all like cultural, like, these are all things we value in our culture. Like, we value the elite schools and the prestigious. positions, jobs, and the, whatever, the material things. And when you're in it, you know, it's kind of like a fishbow, like you think that that is it. Like, that is where I need to, where I need to find my happiness, where I need to find my liberation. Yeah. And stepping outside of it, is so destabilizing.

I was listening to Ram Dass a lecture, he recently said like a huge percentage of people that have mystical experiences say it's the best experience of their life and that they never want to have one again because it upsets an apple cart and you have to rearrange your entire life

and that's hard to do. I mean, it took me three years. I was crying on the plane, but then I still went back to my job. I still was like, no, like, this is the way. It took me three years of being miserable to quit and join an ashram. And, you know, I love talking about this. I spoke about this at the psilocybin panel, the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, how, you know, it's a profound document not just on yoga, but on life.

And Patanjali begins it with just half a sentence. He says, and now yoga. So he's saying, if you still believe that your life will be fulfilled by a new relationship, a new house, a new car, more money, or any other form of external possession or validation, then it's not yet time for yoga. but now that you've seen through all that and realize that none of those things can truly fulfill you, now yoga. And yoga just means, I mean, it's not yoga in the westernized sense of like, you know, headstands and whatnot, but the spiritual path, the union, union with God, which is what yoga means. And so you realize that there's no, and it's a bottomless pit.

That's why people, you know, there's never enough wealth for them. is never enough. They're always seeking more and more because it's a bottomless pit until you realize that what you're seeking is just not it. Yeah. You mentioned the idea of external validations. I feel myself, I obviously can't speak for anybody else, but it seems that our culture that that's what is drilled into us from an early age, especially in the Western world

when you go to a school and there's this authoritarian figure and culture tells you, look, you could be a fireman, you could be a businessman, you could be a banker, you could be a banker, you could be all these things that we have pre-packaged for you, and they'll make you happen. You just got to keep going. Like this idea of external validation is something that's handed to us, probably in the name of comfort, probably in the name of safety or in the name of security on some level. But maybe you could expand a little bit more on this relationship we have with external validation. Yeah, I mean, why do we? Yeah, that's a good question. Why do we rely on external validation? You know, of course, there's evolutionary origins in that. Like, we can't forget that we are, it's a very fine line because we are, we are animals, but at the same time, our, we were. given this self-awareness that is a gateway for liberation that animals can't achieve.

But because we are animals, this need to be included in groups, you know, group inclusion. There's a survival. There's an evolutionary survival reason for that. you know, you're not going to survive the winter alone. You need a tribe. So that runs really deep, that need for external validation, that need to feel included in a group to feel to feel like you have a system, a social support system around you. And so you're not going to do anything to compromise that. You're not going to, you know, that's why it's so difficult to kind of go against the grain. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know, George. It's tough. We also like identify with who we think we are and we build these identities around.

ourselves and and those identities need to get fed and fed and fed. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting to me, Lubba, that like sometimes the very thing that makes you excited about life and seems like a superpower to you as an individual, the thing that makes you unique is also your greatest pain. Like, which one are you going to feed? Like, I can do this.

I have this dream. I believe in it. This is who I am. And you want to feed it. But the world around you is just trying to claw you back down. No, no, no, no. You stay down here. Stay over here.

Like, you know, when I speak to some people, whether it's in the veteran community, the startup community, like there is this overwhelming sense of despair sometimes from people. You wouldn't even think that person's on top of the world. But the truth is half the time they may appear to be on top of the world. But the other half of the time, they're in this just pit of like despair on some level. It's so interesting to see that dynamic tension between these two forces. Like, does that sound familiar to you? Like when you think about that? Well, why are they in despair when you talk to them?

Because the thing that they're trying to create seems so far away. Maybe it's like imposter syndrome or maybe it's this, maybe it's the now yoga thing. Maybe it's part of them dying. Like, oh my gosh, you're sitting there watching all these things around you that, you thought were real just beginning to fall away like detritus yeah and i mean you know it sounds like from what you're saying and i don't know if this case but it sounds like they are still in this um they are still kind of chasing it depends on where it's coming from if they are still chasing this, this need for success.

Versus if there's an actual, if there's just a, you know, the Bhagavad Gita says that one needs to focus on the labor rather than the fruits of the labor. If you just focus on the fruits, you're not going to you're actually not going to get the ripe juicy fruit that you want if you focus on the labor you're more likely to get it and that's also like a Western culture thing is to really focus on the results and rather than the process to focus on the process the journey, the experience. And so a lot of times, you know, I don't know if, and if you chase success for the sake of success,

it's not to say that you won't be successful, but will it be lasting? Will it have, will it be authentic? That's the question. Will it be something that you want to leave behind as a legacy? Yeah, I like that. I feel like most of your time, our time is spent in process. And that's what you've got to love to learn is like the learning and the process of it. You know, in your experience in traveling to Botswana,

I can't help but think of that very similar to like an actual psychedelic experience. where you find yourself in relationship to the whole. And it's so beautiful. And then towards the end of the psychedelic journey, you can feel yourself receding back into, you know, into the world you left or the state of consciousness you were previously in. Are those, is it similar? Like both of those experiences, the actual physical trip of you going to Botswana

and then an actual psychedelic journey. Are there some similarities in there? Yeah, I love that parallel that you're drawing because it's like, taking a literal journey, a little trip somewhere, having like a transpersonal experience, and then coming back. And even like, you know, on psychedelics, there's also that kind of disappointment, sorrow, you feel once the trip is ending or just like, oh, we have to come back to this like banal reality. Yeah, that's totally, I can totally see that parallel. being, experiencing myself as part of a whole is a great way, is a great way to say what I,

to articulate what I felt in Botswana. Yeah, that's something that we, modernity kind of takes away from us. And that being like deep in the African wilderness, like, where there isn't. And there's no modernity. They're, you know, where you get to experience again. And it is, it is like very much like a psychedelic experience. One of my favorite, one of my favorite ideas or one of my favorite things to think about is this idea of as above so below is like this idea of like everything's kind of fractal. And we've spoke about like a trip to Botswana and like a psychedelic experience.

But I think if you just if you broaden it out even further on some level like I see You know it seems to me like you see this world of neuroscience and then all of a sudden you see this world of spirituality Like in you you personally like you might be the person that I've spoken to who has one foot in both worlds like you're studying neuroscience and then mysticism You're over here at like NYU cutting up mouse brains and figuring out the head twitch and all this cratersy stuff you know and then all of a sudden you're in Botswana and you're surrounded by the spiritual nature, this boom coming in at you. Like, do you think what's happening in your life is also happening in this world of psychedelic renaissance right now?

Like it seems like we have spiritual and science sort of reanimating itself in a way. And it seems like it's happening right, boom, right there in your life as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, I am kind of no longer in the neuroscience world. no longer cutting up mouse brains. So I can't say I fully have, you know, right?

My both feet in both worlds. Yeah, my feet in both worlds right now. But I think, yeah, it is this, I love what you said about the as above, so below and the fractal nature of our existence, that self-repeating pattern. And I think, you know, it's not to say that we exist on multiple planes. We exist on multiple planes.

And so there's all truths are true on one of those planes. So it's not to say that scientific materialism is totally invalid. They're on a certain plane, the 3D plane. plane, it's totally valid. And then there's another plane where it is invalid. I talk about Ram Dass like 30 times a day, but like I said, like Ram Dass also talks about like, you know, the debate is free will or determinism. And it's like both are true. On one plane, we have free will. On another plane we don't. It's fully predetermined. And that's how I feel about, the psychedelic renaissance and there is some tension between the scientific materialists

and the more like, you know, sacred medicine, spiritual, even psychological facets of the field. And it's, you know, I think both things can be true at once. It's like it's not, is it the neurodial? Neuplasticity of the psychedelic experience that's healing or is it the mystical experience? And it's both. I mean, a mystical experience is neuroplasticity because the essence of a mystical experience is, you know, they talk about there's the medieval book, the cloud of unknowing or in Zen Buddhism. In Zen Buddhism, there's beginners' mind. And it's like you put yourself in a state of consciousness where there is a rewiring

of the way you normally see and think. And that is in and of itself plastic. You're putting your mind in a very flexible state in a state. that you normally you normally don't put it in um so yeah it's it's you know it's all all truths are true on on some plane oh the cloud of unknowing what a great book like in and so much from the you know the medieval mystics on some level had this really incredible connection and they were able to write it down, whether it's Aquinas or Julian of Norwich. There's just so many incredible individuals from that time frame that we're trying on some level to present us with

the ineffable, you know, this sort of undescribable or, you know, the ecstasy of St. Teresa, you know, when she talks about the chair of thrusting this rod with a sphere made of gold into her chest and how it was so painful but beautiful at the same time. I'm so drawn to that. Like, it's amazing to think about. What? We just stay with the ineffable for a minute. Is that something that is unique to all of us?

And maybe it's never meant to be explained. Maybe that's an experience for the individual to ruminate on on some level. What's your take of this ineffable thing that happens from time to time, be it in a transpersonal experience in Botswana at an ashram? maybe at the at the at the out in a park somewhere or in a psychedelic experience. You're saying like do all human beings have the capacity to experience the ineffable or what do you what do you mean? We can we can I want to get there but first off like like why is it just a silly question

but like why is it is it is that the reason is it is it something that's bigger than words there's no linguistic pathway but there's. an experience there? Any ideas on that? Yeah, totally. Those experiences transcend language. They transcend rational thought. They transcend linear thought. That's why you know, all of these the mystics write in poetry. They don't write in prose. The Bible is poetry. The Bhagavad Gita is poetry.

You know, obviously people take it literally, but it's poetry. It's ineffable because you cannot, you cannot put into words. And when you try, it just sounds like word salad. And, you know, like, actually Michael Polaro. Roland wrote in his in his book um in his book god I'm forgetting the name of the name of his famous book what I'm looking at how to change your mind yes how to change your mind um he wrote about how you know there's these like platitudes like oh everything is love there's nothing but love and like they just sound like platitudes to us like meaningless cliches but then when you have that

mystical trans-personal experience you're like oh no no that is not just a like it makes sense to you it makes sense to your mind in that state um and it's it's not that it's a platitude it's that we've lost touch with with um with the meaning of those of those words of those expressions and then when you when your mind um goes into a plane of consciousness that's not a linear rational thought and you're able to see the truth of it. And it's hard to hold on to it once that experience leaves you. Yeah, it's slippery. Like you think you can contain it.

You can't, maybe you can touch it. It's like touching the fire. Like, oh, ah, you know, you forget all about it because of the pain sets. I'm like, oh, what was that? It was hot. I don't know. It was weird. I could kind of feel this thing, but it's interesting to think about.

And you could understand, I can understand. And so this kind of brings me up, this brings up this idea of, you know, so many people that have this experience want others to experience it as well. And like maybe that sort of shared experience is what propels a consciousness and a society and a culture forward. But it also breaks a lot of boundaries. And it kind of reminds me of maybe like this last renaissance, like in the 60s when you saw like, hey, this whole. psychedelic thing is way out of control. We got kids rioting and campuses or people talking about anti-war, there's a drug problem, you know, like, it's crazy. We need to shut this thing down. It seems on some level what was happening back in maybe the 60s or even the late 50s was sort of

this similar spiritual awakening, but it made a lot of people really nervous. Do you kind of see that happening again in this particular experience we're having now, or is this my hallucination? Yeah, but this time they are, they are trying to rein it in with the science. Like, they're trying to really medicalize psychedelics and the whole movement in order to legitimize it. Yep. And, you know, I mean, on the one hand, it's. good because that way it's pushing it forward without completely shutting it down like like that the way it was previously in the 60s right because in the 60s it was um I mean you had like

Tim Leary and Ram Dass like they were it was it was a very spiritual um transpersonal um kind of angle to it and now and now yeah there is there is there There's this, but I recently, you know, I recently saw there was a Rolling Stone article cover that was like the title was people are taking mushrooms for depression and accidentally meeting God. The medicalization movement is faltering. Maybe that's because psychedelics have been spiritual tools all along. So I think there's there's this realization that psychedelic assisted therapy.

is a groundbreaking frontier with the potential to revolutionize mental health treatment. But what sets these substances apart is not their chemical effects. Like, let's not medicalize it. It's their unique ability to induce profound spiritual experiences. Like, that's what is making this type of therapy, this medicine, so groundbreaking. But, you know, that's that's an uncomfortable place to, for people, for the, for our world to sit in. Yeah. It's, it's really well said.

You know, I was, I was speaking with a friend of mine yesterday. And we were talking about this, a very similar topic about like, you know, what are some differences and some similarities? of this new wave, this fourth wave. And it seems to me that there sure is a lot of, there's a lack there of a peace movement. I got in trouble for calling it an anti-war movement because it still says war. So you should just say peace instead of anti-war, George.

But anyways, you know, when you look at some of the PTSD and especially the medical container, it seems to commodify all the veterans. Like here is this steady stream of people coming from war. This is a good thing. And we're going to help them through their PTSD. still symptom management. You know, we're not addressing the actual issue. You start, I started wondering like, why is that? Well, they probably get a lot of grants. Well, you know,

if you look at the veterans groups like, man, they're still tied politically. They're still getting a lot of money from the government. The government probably doesn't want to talk about anti-warmer. There's a lot of defense contractors out there. And it's, but it does begin to shine light, you know, just the fact that I'm talking about. I'm some guy over here in California. But, you know, it's it's beginning to escape the medical model at a level that is making a lot of people nervous. I saw yesterday, I talked to Joe Moore who psychedelics today, they got banned off of Instagram. Dennis Walker's been banned off Instagram. And like there is this sort of, I think, tension of like, okay, okay, let's get this toothpaste back in the bottle.

Can we get this genie back over here? And to me, it's exciting. I think that what you're beginning to see is, is, I mean, if you squint your eyes and look down the horizon, you can kind of see Dayglow school buses coming your way. Is that too optimistic? Wait, wait. Why were they banned off Instagram again? I don't know for sure, but I mean, they are talking about psychedelics and they are, you know,

maybe it's some of the certifications or maybe they're, some of the products they may be talking about. I don't know for sure, but, you know, I think in Dennis's case, it was, it was Connor or something like that, but, you know, nothing illegal and it's substance that have been around forever. that are not really even gray market or they're out there so i can't help but think that's pressure on some level yeah um yeah no i love what you said about yeah it is interesting that the in the 60s the psychedelic culture had a very strong anti-war yeah like under like texture to it there was a yeah a flavor to it and um and now

yeah we don't we're not really seeing that and um yeah and you're right it's like well yeah there's all these veterans who are traumatized by combat um and rather than addressing the fact that we are using war in order to make people rich um and to you know it's not just the veterans that are Getting trauma is victims of war. So, yeah, and rather than addressing that, it's, I mean, it's all just so disgusting. It's just so, yeah, I don't even know what to say about that. It brings up this, I have another question, and I'm curious to get your opinion as someone who has been through the life that you've lived. there's a great book called Society of the Spectacle by Guide aboard.

And in that book, he talks about anything that's created in misery will have the latent effect of misery later, be it a product, be it a food. And you start thinking about factory farming, where you start thinking about widgets made on Amazon or, you know, people enslaved labor or even batteries, you know, like all these things that are being created in misery. And by misery, I mean, the people making them hate doing it, whether it's a guy going to his job here as a UPS driver or someone mining something somewhere else. Like any product or any service that is created in misery will have that effect on the end user, a miserable experience. Do you think that's true? Totally. And that is why I don't listen to like most pop mainstream music. because a lot of it's written from a place of pain.

And I don't want my consciousness to take that on, to take that in. Yeah, I think, I think like we are collective dreaming. It is a collective consciousness. So the one action, one emotion, one thought of one person has a ripple effect. And, yeah, if there's, I totally, I totally think that there's a lot of validity to that. Yeah. And people are just not, I forget who says this. Like, all of the world's problems are rooted in the fact that people are not able to, like, sit still alone with themselves in a room.

because they're not able to confront what's what's inside. And it's usually misery, anger, cruelty. Yeah, and they're just projecting it out into the world rather than cleaning it up within themselves, bringing more and more karma into this world. Oh, man, I'm reminded of that great Cs, this quote where he says, I sat with my anger long enough. She told me her real name, grief. It's so beautiful, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, our culture, yeah, people, I think there's this anger. It's interesting how people feel more comfortable in anger than in grief. I think it's because our culture kind of conceptualizes strength and power as like aggression and anger and, you know, violence and grief is a weakness. And grief is a weakness. It's a vulnerability. And that's something that we are not, we look down upon. I love it. I can't help when I look and listen to some of the younger generation. And I believe wholeheartedly that the kids today are growing up in a world where more information means more awareness.

And like I see them. I see them sort of growing out of these old ideas. And I know that we're ways away. but I see it. Like I see the moving away from generational trauma or at least the attempt to be aware of the generational trauma that happened. And that to me is like a sunrise because it's like, oh, like I feel it. I feel it talking to you.

And when you talk about moving past aggression, like I see this as a new day dawning and people beginning to become aware of it. And like that awareness is contagious. Is that, when you look at the future and maybe it's just because where we are, Lou, But maybe, you know, I can't speak for you, but I'm some guy in his middle ages and I'm like, oh, I see the world changing. Maybe that's just the change I see in myself. But I can't help but see these positive insights in the people younger than me and it's changing faster.

Is that, I know it's optimistic, but do you see these changes happening? Do you think that this new awareness is emerging at this time for a reason? Yeah, there's totally greater awareness in the culture of inner world. you know, like the age of Aquarius is a very, it's a very internal age. I mean, therapy, you know, all therapy, psychedelics, you know, self-improvement, all of this stuff is so mainstream right now, more mainstream than, I mean, you've been around longer than I have, no offense. But, but, like, I'm assuming, you know, in the time you've been alive, it's more mainstream now than it's ever been.

And in the time that I've been alive as well, it's more mainstream, it's more accepted, it's more valued. And so, yeah, I think there's this evolution of consciousness happening where people are realizing that, I mean, like I said, when we started out, you don't become enlightened, like Carl Jung said, by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. And so I think that's the point of all of this. That's the point of therapy and self-improvement and psychedelics becoming mainstream is in order for people to work through their own darkness. And then the, and then the, there was the consequent light can radiate out into the world. Yeah, it's interesting. I, what do you, when I say, what do you think of this?

The McDonald's of transformation. What comes to your mind? Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. I don't love that. Well, yeah, no, I totally, what comes to mind is there is now this like, kind of like this fast food, like, but now it's fast self-help, fast self-improvement where it's become a commodity.

It's become something that is losing its meaning and its value. Um, third time in this conversation I'm going to bring up Ram Dass. He talks about how, um, like how it's ridiculous that meditation in the West is something, it's like a symptom management thing. It's like I'm going to meditate in order for my, um, my symptoms to go away. I'm going to meditate in order to become more productive at work. Um, when that is not, I mean, meditation is a contemplative practice to achieve union with God. And in that, sure, all those things will happen, but that is not the purpose of it.

And so, yeah, I mean, this whole, this whole, anytime the West gets introduced to something, it becomes bastardized. like self-improvement now transformation yeah it's now it's now becoming a McDonald's they're taking what could be like a healthy burger from a cow that got a lot of love to to a crappy you know a crappy fake burger a crappy fake um disgusting burger. Yeah, it's interesting to me. Like, it's, I don't, I have this idea of, and I feel like my mic's off right here. I have this idea of, you know, a drive-through where you can order a, like, a happy meal, you know,

of just a happy meal and a certificate and be on your way and not really have to sit with anything that's difficult, you know, but the true gold comes from real experience that probably no one else will care about except for you and maybe the people you're in relationship with. Like when you start finding and doing work on yourself and realizing why you hate your mom or hate your dad or hate your sister, you know, or you hate the guy at your work, you know, when you start figuring out that maybe you hate part of yourself, whoa, all your relationships begin to change. But that's where the real transformation comes in from the inside, right? Like we, we want it to be easy. Like, and I wish it was. I wish more people could,

could find an easy path to solving the problems in their life. But I don't think there is one. You know, I think psychedelics may walk you up to the door, let you look in the window a little bit, but they're just showing you like, hey, look at this thing, man. You think you work on that? Hey, look at it. Can you fix this thing over here? But it really does allow you to approach things without shame on some level. Have you found that in the yogic tradition and some of the healing you've done outside of psychedelics, that it's the same mechanism. It allows you to perceive yourself without shame.

Are these two experiences paths to a similar outcome? Yes, totally. They are the same experience. Yeah, and you can, you can see. see yourself without shame. When you like kind of shed those egoic layers, you can see parts of yourself without shame. But there is no, you have to feel a shame at some point. You have to feel it.

You have to go through it. And like you said, there is no, there's definitely no easy way. It's not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be, it's brutal. This type of work transformation, it is, it's like death and the labor pains of rebirth. Rebirth is, like if you think about birth, labor, it's painful. And same thing with transformation. So, and yeah, you kind of have to walk through how.

to get to heaven. And Jesus said, no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are reborn. To be reborn, you have to, again, and this is poetry, this is not literal.

The kingdom of heaven is a state of consciousness where one is liberated, one is at peace. And you can only experience that unless you're reborn. And in order to be reborn, you have to die first. And, you know, like the Tibetan Book of the Dead, when they talk about what one experiences when they die,

like the hell is a state of consciousness. You die and you see all of your inner demons projected outwards. And that is something that people are running for 24-7. 24-7 people are running from that unconsciously, but they are running from face. their own demons. But a death, whether it's a physical one or a psychological one, will force you to confront that. Yeah. I'm thinking of the collective dreaming again.

You know, and it's a beautiful way to look at it. Like if we are collectively dreaming, you know, I see so much, I see so many ideas that no longer serve us. And in a weird way, I can't help but think that that might be the projections of a generation of people dying. Like if we look at ourselves, if we look at the world and the human as one sort of organism, the baby boomer class around the world seems to be this giant generation of people. You know, they led us through the 60s. They have tons of amazing ideas and they help us get where we are today. But on some level, there's so many people, it seems like, maybe it's because in my life that are in their sense.

70s and in their 80s and like the people in my life that I love are really scared about dying on some level. I feel like that has to have a radical effect on the world we live in. And if you look at so much of the things that are happening in our world, like it, I can't help think that maybe what we're seeing on a planetary level with all this difficult time is the unrealized dreams of people that are getting to move on to the next level. Is that, what do you think about that? We are collectively dreaming and there's this large part of us that's moving on.

That's got to have a lot of collective angst, right? So you think like the boomers who are the generation that is like on the verge of death right now are afraid of dying and it's creating this angst? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I mean. Maybe all of us afraid they're dying. Like, I'm afraid of people I love dying. Of course, yeah. There's, unfortunately, love and loss are inextricably intertwined.

Right. And we're all afraid of death. I don't know if, yeah, the whole collective dreaming thing is interesting. I don't know if the boomers being afraid of dying. is what's creating the collective angst because that's because I mean why why haven't isn't that the case for all generations that are on the verge of dying why is this why is the the the zeitgeist right now more there's more chaos and angst than ever before why are the are the boomers particularly holding on for dear life you know I don't know I've been you

If I were to expand on it, I would say that like, and maybe this is an example of my life, but there's no right of passage. When I look at so many, like, people around the world holding on the power, they seem to me to be at an age where maybe they should be passing on their wisdom. Maybe they should be wisdom keepers that are passing on the tradition to the next generation. It doesn't seem that that's happening. If you look back at history on some level, I guess power is never really seated. It's always taken.

Maybe that's what we see happening right now. But I don't know, in my world, I think that there's a lack of ritualistic handing down of power. I don't see any rights of passage. And that scares me. You know, like, shouldn't there be, if we look at the psychedelic tradition and we look at ceremonies and rituals, like, it doesn't really seem to me that there is that on a planetary scale of the people currently in power. And this just could be me fantasizing about things. but I think there's a lack of tradition, a lack of rights of passage, and that is creating angst. I can just be rambling right now.

I don't know. No, I think there's so much validity to what you're saying. Yeah, we don't, we don't have any traditions. We don't have any elders, really. Yeah. It's a totally different culture in the West, in this. where scientific and technological advancement is so prevalent and so valued, we have a totally different approach to everything.

We don't have ritual. We don't have tradition. We don't have rights of passage. And it's the source of so much misery. I love, it's kind of mind-boggling how Aldous Huxley in the 30s saw this coming. in Brave New World. He saw how scientific and technological advancement would deplete people, create this deep spiritual and existential void in people in culture.

And, yeah, yeah. I don't know, George. Yeah. Yeah, there's a, there's a brilliant debate that I watched, not too long ago, about the future of Orwell versus Huxley. And the, forgive me for not realizing the guy's name. He's brilliant. But he spoke about, and he gave all these examples of vice that we seem to be turning to in absence of spirituality, be it, be it pornography or our phones or the way in which technology allows us to have dopamine course through our brain and our veins. and it isn't.

You know, if if there is a bright spot, though, I think that Huxley wrote the island after Brave New World. So maybe he caught a glimpse of like what can be possible. But yeah, maybe that's where we are right now. And we look at science and spirituality and the psychedelic renaissance. Will this be something? Can this be a medicine that disassociates people? Or can it be a medicine that unites people?

And probably both ways are true. Yeah. It's, yeah, I mean, in an ideal world, it unites us. There is definitely some dissociation happening with it as well. I mean, I think a lot of people think now, oh, great, now I can just take drugs and all my problems and get high and all my problems will go away. Like, not only are my problems going to go away, but I can actually have, fun in the process. And that is for sure a form of dissociation. And unfortunately, where the psychedelic

movement is, it seems to be headed at times. I haven't read the island, but I do know Terence McKenna said that he said that like after this kind of insane, like, scientific, technological, like, era that we're in, that we're going to, people are going to go back to, like, tribal living, like, basic, basic, like, tribal living. Like, there's just going to be a total, like, 180. So, yeah, perhaps this is kind of like the storm before the calm. Yeah, the archaic revival. In that book, he goes deep into like, you know, when societies get in trouble,

they turn back to a point when things were better. Okay, where do we go wrong at? He goes deep in the archaic revival. And yeah, in some ways you can see it right now. Like, look at the, especially the world of psychedelics turning towards ceremony. You know, you have the CEO of startups in Silicon Valley, like, I'm going to go do this ayahuasca trip for a little bit like on some level like that's that's got to be the path to the archaic revival like people are it's a real actual revival happening in real time it's crazy yeah or

just even like people um people wanting to live off the grid off the land people wanting um people wanting to eat organic food and um um just more natural more natural slow lifestyle like yeah people are it is it is that is for sure um a manifestation of the arcade revival let's do just um so we got a question coming in from my friend clint here from our friend oh yeah i'm just i was just i was just going to say let's do like a couple minutes more 10 yeah no problem let me ask you this one right here that we get yeah go ahead we'll we'll get land in the plane here do you believe modern psychology has the capacity has the capacity to fully embrace transpersonal states,

or is it limited by its empirical roots? That's a great question. It's totally... Yeah, modern psychology needs a revival in order to embrace the transpersonal. This kind of behaviorist model that modern psychology operates within that that framework is not conducive to understanding the more transpersonal

nature, the more transpersonal spiritual needs of human beings. So yeah, it's definitely limited, I would say, yeah. I agree. Louva, you have been gracious with your time. So much fun talking. This hour flew by like it was 10 minutes. I feel like talk for another hour. I'm super stoked to hang out with you and talk to you.

But, you know, before I let you, before we land the plane, maybe you could be so kind to tell people what you got coming up, where they can find you, what you're excited about. Well, you can find me on my website, Lubavusufova.com. I am right now, you know, I'm just letting things unfold organically. I feel like what's been, what the cosmic forces have been sending my way is a lot like public speaking opportunities.

So I'm going to be speaking in March in Paris at a global women's power summit. In May, I'll be speaking at a psychedelic social club. Um, yeah. So kind of, that's been kind of what's been happening. So and of course, you know, I'm, I'm seeing clients. Um, and doing my own, always doing my own work on myself. Well, fantastic. I think everybody within the sound of my voice, go down to the show notes, check out the website, reach out. It's an incredible conversation. I can't wait to see all the things in the future that you got coming up. And hang on briefly. But to everybody else, I hope you have a beautiful weekend. I hope, you know, the sun is shining. And if you get out there and do the work, the world will open up to you in ways you can't imagine. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen.

Have a beautiful day. Aloha.