TrueLife - Lyubov Yusufova - Departure From Behaviorism

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/lyubovyusufovaDoctor of Psychology student at CIS investigating the interface of clinical psychology, consciousness, and comparative mystical experience. After five years of neuroscience research in mouse and computational models, my meditation practice acquainted me with a nature of mind far beyond the confines of highly operationally-defined variables.I spent a year in intensive contemplative practice of an Indian ashram tradition, bridging the gap between science and spirituality with a phenomenological study on ego transcendence presented at The Science of Consciousness 29th International Interdisciplinary Conference.I am particularly interested in the therapeutic potential of ego-transcendent states in psychedelic medicine. The most remarkable breakthrough in psychiatric treatment in many decades represents a departure from behaviorism and is rekindling an interest in the subjective dimensions of the mind - in consciousness.If collaborating on this vision resonates with you, please get in touch with me. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope everyone listening to this within the sound of my voice can reach down and find the courage need to get through a day if you're having an issue. I hope that you know there's people that love you. And I have a great show for you today. I have an incredible guest that I believe is going

to be incredibly fruitful to talk to and I'm really excited about it. The one and only Lubo Yusufova and she is a consciousness and psychedelic researcher. She's familiar with the Vendonter tradition. She's clinical. She is spending her time as a clinical, a psychology doctoral student at the California Institute of Integral Studies. Currently one year with the Eisha Foundation, congratulations on that, and congratulations on the poster that you presented on the phenomenological study on ego transcendence.

I think we're going to get into a lot of incredible things here. I'm super thankful that you're spending some time with me today. How are you today? I'm doing great, George. Thank you for having me. Yeah, the pleasure is all mine. I think we live in such a beautiful and interesting time. And as I was, one of the things that really attracted to me to want to speak to you was

your, the way in which you're describing some of the events that are happening. You know, one little blurb that you had written down that I was like, oh, this is fascinating, was that you had written down that after five years of neuroscience research and mouse and computational models, your meditation practice acquainted you with a nature of mind far beyond the kind confines of highly operationally defined variable. Maybe you can unpack that a little bit for some people. Okay, okay. So, yeah, I was in my most recent position, I was working with mice.

And I was using mice to study, basically study PTSD, neurophysiology and treatment. So the neurophysiology of the disease and its treatment. And the way it's studied in mice is you will execute the mouse and you pair the electric shock with a tone. And eventually the mouse associates every time they hear the tone, they will show some kind of fear response. because they will expect to get shocked. Right. And the way that it's the treatment of that is you then just play the tone for the mouse with no electric shock. And eventually the mouse no longer shows a fear response to the shock.

It gets desensitized to that tone. or they no longer show fear response to the tone, excuse me. So, yeah, so that was kind of the, that's the treatment model. And what that treatment model in humans, what it translates to is, would be like, if a veteran, if a combat veteran, if you treat their PTSD by playing, the sound of a bomb going off and you just desensitize them to that sound until they no longer have some conditioned fear response. And I was already on the spiritual path when by this time. And I read, and I read the book, The Body Keeps to Score, which, which is a book,

that's that's like seminal in not just amongst like lay people mainstream for PTSD treatment, but like even clinicians talk about how great the book is. And he, Bessel van der Kalk, the author, he talks about the limitations of that kind of treatment for PTSD. And there's, there's a lot of limitations, but one thing is that, you know, that desensitization that can be displayed can just be dissociation. So the person that is may not be showing any kind of response to something that would normally elicit fear, it's not that they're treated. It's just that they're dissociated. another limitation is that it's not just there's more emotions that underlie PTSD than fear there's shame right there's anger um and he said the reason why it's called the body keeps the

score is because he says that the trauma is stored deep in the body um on a level where like cognitive behavioral therapy doesn't always cut it because it kind of it bypasses that it's just stored so deeply in the body that it bypasses that kind of treatment and and it's just like the treatments that we have have fallen short of expectations that that model of PTSD treatment has fallen short of expectations you know even though it's considered the gold standard and evidence based. You know, it's just, it's not cutting it. So that was kind of, I would say that was kind of the eye-opener for me in terms of how reductionist that approach was and how it just wasn't, it just left me feeling unfulfilled because of that.

Man, it leaves me unfulfilled listening to that. Like you almost need a treatment from the it's almost like harlowe's monkeys meets pavlov's dogs you know what i mean like that it's it's kind of sad to think about that this is the research we're doing in order to heal people how can research that harms people in fact actually heal people it's okay i'm kind of birdwalking there but yeah it's it's it's crazy to think about right yeah and and it is it is based on the um the pavlov dogs um experiments it is exactly that it's conditioning yeah Um, and, and yeah, it's, it's where, it's very weird because, um, it's like, it's, like I said, it's the gold standard and it's considered that it, it's been replicated so much and, and, and it's like, we can trust it, but, but, you know, if, if you speak to anyone, like you've had Randall on your show, like, yeah, like, it, this treatment has just fallen short of expectations and it's why MDMA and psychedelics are, are considered such a, you know, like, it's like, it, this treatment has just fallen short of expectations. And it's why, or, or, you know, it's considered such a. It's breakthrough treatment now.

But yeah, and when I was on the spiritual path, another insight I had was there's this great quote that a man himself will not find peace until he includes all beings as himself. And I was

just like, I was just like the irony because we're trying, I mean, you have to breed these mice and not all of them are used and experiments. A lot of them are just end up euthanized. So you're breeding all these mice. You're hurting them. And the irony is that it's all for the sake of helping humans, right, attain what, happiness and peace? And the irony is that I remember just having this spiritual insight once that was like, well, you know, the way to get that happiness and peace is by connecting with all beings.

and learning that connection and opening your heart in that way, not by harming them. So that was another insight I had into that. And I just remember, I just remember Ram Dass, you know, he, he was an academia and he was, he was a psychologist, you know. And he had it all. He had like, he said he had the corner. office in Harvard. He had the motorcycles. He had he had it all and he even before he got fired for the whole

psychedelic scandal. He said he said that he just he just lost interest in what he was doing. He said he said it just felt like meaningless fluff because and he was working with with humans like he was studying personality. But he said like his he's colleagues were all like supposed to be experts in psychology and human behavior. And they

themselves were not evolved. They themselves were not living lives that were fulfilled. And he just and he just couldn't, he just felt like they weren't doing enough that mattered, that that was moving the needle in any way that was meaningful enough. And that's why they had to be fulfilled with the status and the positions and the cars and the that's why it was there was there was a lack of of doing anything that really really mattered um so even before he got fired he he was like by the time he got fired he was like totally okay with it because um because of that and so and so that was something that really resonated with me his um his story so So, yeah.

Yeah, it's so true. It's maybe this is why spirituality has sort of been cut off from science. Because once you begin understanding some avenues of spirituality, you start thinking, like, what are we doing with science? Jesus. What is this? Like, why are we doing this? And then they're like, hey, get this spiritual person out of here, man. You're messing up the system over here.

Don't you realize how much money you're going to make? Like, it just seems. And it kind of seems that what we're seeing now with this. sort of, you know, reimagining science and spirituality together. We're seeing a lot of this, like, hey, what are we doing? Like, why is there so much PTSD out there not only with soldiers, well, with people that are truck drivers? Like, what is wrong with our society?

And I think that you can see a large part of what's wrong with our society just in the experiments that we're doing. You know, I guess that kind of speaks volumes of, of you had a bit of pilgrimage yourself like you went and lived in an ashram for a year and bridged this gap between science and spirituality what's that all about yeah yeah so i um you know ramdas also when it was like i don't even know it was crazy because i just i remember um telling my family like um several months before i went i was like i'm gonna go to an ashram like you'll see and And they didn't believe me.

They were like, no, you're not like, what? And then, yeah, and then I just, I started listening to Kirtan music, which is basically like these Hindu devotional chants. So that was like all I was listening to. I stopped listening to mainstream music. Then I bought a mala and I started doing the chanting. And then I, you know, they say your guru always finds. you you don't find your guru and um and i was uh i was on on youtube one day and and what came up on my

like for you page was um a video of sad guru on the jo rogan podcast right and and i just i just clicked on it i was like okay this is interesting like this is not someone who i would expect to see on this podcast. So I started watching and there were just things he said that really resonated with me. One thing he said was he was like,

if Jor Rogan was like, yeah, you know, people, they were talking about how people don't really believe in the concept of heaven anymore. And Jorogun was like, yeah, you know, like it's religion. it's caused all these problems. And Sad Guru said he was like, how do you know you're not in heaven and just making a mess of it? Like, how do you know you're not already in heaven and you're just making a mess? So he said that. And then, and then he was like, he was like, yeah, you can do, you can do

yoga, but if you really want to know the source of creation, like come to the ashram. So anyway, like I listened to him and I, it wasn't like, it was like a week or two. And then I, I basically booked a trip to the first like introductory program at his ashram. And I, you know, and I left my job where I was electrocuting and killing mice. And, yeah, and when I went to the ashram, like, it was, you know, we were talking about intuition before we started reporting. And I had this intuition that, like, what I'm doing seems risky to the outsider right now, but I just knew that I wasn't going here just for myself. Like, I knew that one day I was going to use what I learned at the ashram to help other people.

And I took a stack of notebooks with me to take notes, you know? And so, yeah, so I had that intuition. and you know, you're basically training your mind. At the ashram, you're just training your mind all day in various ways, whether it's the postures, the asanas, the breathing, the pranayama, Deana, meditation. And you're training your mind to be one-pointed. And the interesting thing about that is that the one-pointed,

the one pointedness of mind has been, is correlated with default mode network deactivation, which is what you see in psychedelic states and people who are expert meditators. So there's something about, so there was that overlap of psychedelics and training your mind. to be one pointed via meditation or any other contemplative practice. So, and I was, of course, expecting to see and experience mystical consciousness, but I was really surprised to see how similar it looked to psychedelic states, but in the most brutal way, like, it's like these intense, emotions, this purging, this, your body shaking, quivering, like, and it's, but it's also followed,

of course, by these blissful states. And what that is, is the kundalini rising. So, so yeah, I'll, I'll let you, I'll let you interject here, but this was kind of like the beginning of that merging. of the science and spirituality because I was like I was like it's interesting what we're doing here at the ashram it's not medicine and yet it looks a lot like psychedelic medicine and this and there's this psychological healing that's happening but it's happening via spiritual growth so this psychological healing and spiritual growth are like one and the same and um yeah so that was that was kind of the beginning of the project that I started. I love it. It's fascinating to me. And, you know, I probably shouldn't bring in Western mythology and try to tie it to like the Indian

ashram. But it seems a lot like the hero's journey to me in some ways. You know what I mean? Maybe that's the, maybe I'm mixing my metaphors a little bit. But like it does seem this, like this idea of being called to something and then refusing the call. And then all of a sudden to be like, damn it, I'm going to do it. And then having the people that you leave be like, you're making a big mistake, man. You've got to keep killing these mice. Don't you know how important that is?

You're going to keep doing this. You know what? And it's funny. And I make fun of it because it saddens me. Like, I'm saddened by it. That's why I make fun of it. So if people are listening, don't get mad at me. I get it.

Like, I realize the unrealized dreams of the people manifest themselves in ways that become generational trauma. And I hate that. That's probably the. giant cause of PTSD. But if we focus for a moment on this idea that the spiritual nature of going to the ashram help solve a psychological crisis, maybe another way of saying that is that our, we already have a one point in this, but it's skewed to one side.

It's like we have this sort of, you know, sharpened scalpel of intellect that allows us to cut into everything without ever actually dissecting it mentally. You know what I mean? Like we don't ask if it's right or wrong. We just dig into it. Let's let's electrocute all these mice and find out what it is. Instead of asking the question of like, hey, why are we doing this? You know, but it seems to me, I guess I get caught up in this idea of one pointedness.

Like is one pointedness like sort of the idea of a holistic approach? Is one pointedness the way you describe it, the right and left. hemisphere coming together and seeing the world maybe the way it is instead of the way we want it to be because when I think of one point in this, sometimes I think of like a focus like a laser beam. And that seems a lot of like the intellectual scalpel to me. What am I missing there? Oh, okay. Yeah, I see what you're asking.

No, I what you're saying in regards to the doing things without questioning it. Yes. That's yeah. I, so I was just at the Science of Consciousness Conference, which is like an international conference. It's the conference for consciousness of the whole year. And it's crazy because I was speaking to people there and they were saying like, you know, a few years ago this conference, like there was no one spoke about spirituality at all. And now there's like all these present, like people were speaking about yoga, about Vedanta. And there was a, I saw something called the Galileo Commission Report.

And I got to write that down. Can you say that again? The Galileo Commission Report. Okay. And it's basically a report written by a bunch of scientists. And everyone knows the story of Galileo. He said. Right.

he was put on house arrest for like the remainder of his life because he said no, the earth is not in the center. And the reason why they named it that is because they're basically saying that materialism and scientism has become like a new religion. Like you can't question it. And anytime there's any evidence that rejects it, that rejects it, the evidence is rejected. So, and there's, and it's caused this like narrow understanding of consciousness.

And, and so this report is basically about like challenging scientific materialism and examining evidence against it. And they're basically saying that like, that this materialism has just become another church where it's, it's already not. even logical, like any evidence that you give them that, hey, listen, like, there's something beyond. Like, they just don't want to accept it. And, but there are an increasing number of scientists and scholars who are questioning the prevailing belief that materialism is, is all there is. So what I want to, so in terms of, like, the intellectual scapillar, scalpel. Yeah, it's a huge problem. It's a huge problem in science. And it's like there's a difference. They're saying there's a difference between science and scientism. And now we're at a place where it's just,

it's just become another religion essentially. And the scientific establishment, they're just like, they're just dismissing anything that challenges the materialist paradigm because they have all, these vested interests and they're just entrenched in that paradigm. So that's a huge problem. And you know, these people are very brave because when you do speak out against, I feel like we're living at a time where when you do speak out against the scientific establishment, you know, it's, you get a lot of flack for it. So but there are, but there are people, there are people doing that and I respect it a lot. But in terms of the one pointedness of mind,

so what that is is just like, you know, when you're meditating, right, you want to exclusively have your mind on a single object, whether it's your breath, whether it's, you know, this the third eye right here. And there's kind of, of there's kind of two and you kind of have to cultivate that concentration in order to achieve the final goal of yoga which is union with god um so the one pointedness of mind is is referring to that

um it's referring to to being able to see an object your your concentration and your mindfulness has to become so good that when you're looking looking at an object, you're seeing it in its true form. There's no, you're not projecting any of your concepts onto it. You're seeing a tree for it. And it becomes so, you're seeing it in such true form that they say you become one with the object. That's why they say like something like telepathy is possible. You know, when you, when you train your mind enough, they say there's something, there's something called cities.

Cities are like superpowers, basically. And you can, like, Ram Dass's guru, Neme Kroli Baba, he would like read Ram Dass's mind and he would be blown away because he came from the West with this rational perspective of how things are supposed to be. but that's that's essentially like you are so one with whatever you're looking at that you can see right into it you become it like you become it like i you know someone with this someone with the city can look at you and and become george to the point where they can see and feel and understand your entire experience um and that's essentially what one pointedness of mind does. I love it. It's interesting to, well, if I take it back to the beginning of some of the things you were saying, when we talk just briefly going back to this idea about speaking out about science,

it reminds me of the, you know, the classic quote that Gandhi had that said, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win. And it seems like we're pretty close to winning right now if they're beginning to fight us. So it's fascinating to think about it from that angle. On the one-pointedness, you know, there are tons of, it makes a lot of sense because you find people who are on the spiritual path, and it's a lonely path. So even though you begin to develop these spiritual skills

or you begin the road to one-pointedness, you know, you have to leave everybody behind on some level. And then that it's kind of sad, but you can see why people go to the ashran, or people find themselves in monastery that are usually sometimes in secluded areas and stuff like that. It kind of is fractal in a way, if that makes sense. Like you begin to see the practice as the same sort of lifestyle. And it's weird how those things begin to match up when you start looking at it from that angle right there.

It's fascinating. I'm really proud and excited to talk to someone who's on a path like this and who's had the courage to do it. And maybe can you explain what was it that allowed you to, was it, did you see something happening? Was it the experiment? Was it the lifestyle you were living? Like, what was it that made you have the courage and the fortitude

to make a change in your life to do that? Because I'm sure it wasn't easy, right? It's like, it's like, I feel like it was. a lot easier than like well I was like saying earlier it's it's very weird it's almost like something was putting me on this path and giving me the courage because I you know out of nowhere I'm like yeah I'm going to go to an ashram then out of nowhere I start listening to Kirtan music like I'm like I'm literally just listening to Kirtan I stopped listening to all mainstream music and and then I buy Amala.

And so it's like it's all these, it was just draw. I was just so drawn to that. And yeah, it is such a different lifestyle. I mean, our lifestyle is so not conducive to being happy and being happy and at peace. You know, you recently had Anya on your show. I listened. And like everything she was saying is just so spot on. And, you know, this science and technology stuff, like, it's just so ironic because it's supposed to make our lives better and eradicate suffering.

And it's kind of only bringing more suffering. There's this great book by Huxley, who also wrote Dors of Perception. He was a mystic, you know, and he wrote this book in, like, I think it was like the 30s, Brave New World. And in that book, it's like a future dystopia where where people are no longer like, instead of saying, oh, God, people are, people worship technology and signs to the point where they no longer say, oh, God. They say, oh, Ford, like Ford, like the car. And it's just like all these different. And, and you no longer reproduce, you reproduce in the Petri dish, basically. Like everything is, and it's, it's such a reflection of what's going on right

now. And there's just, but there's no suffering. Like they have a pill for, I think it's called like soma. If you feel any negative emotion, you take soma and you're good. And, but people are just so miserable and disconnected from each other. And I think it's like, it's, it's so, it's such a reflection of what's happening now. And, and yeah, like, our lifestyles are not conducive. You know, when I'm at the ashram, it's just, it's just so different. Like everything is, it's just such a mindful way of life. And you realize how much mindfulness impacts your well-being. Yeah, I, yeah, I don't know.

It's like, it's hard because I don't want to like, it's always like risky to speak out about science and technology. you like it because it's like oh it's the thing it's the thing right but it's like i don't know like everywhere it's like mental health crisis mental health crisis but then apple just came out with these goggles right and it's just like well you know what are you doing for for the mental you're making it worse like i don't get they don't realize you're making it worse um and i i just feel like the materialism, that that whole paradigm of living, chasing happiness and peace through that paradigm, Sad Guru calls it like, it's like trying to taste something through your ear. Like it's not the, you'll never find happiness and peace through anything material, anything,

anything outside of you, you will never, it's just, not there. And the irony is just that people keep, keep it's like a rat race or, you know, they're on that hamster wheel, but, and they just can't come off. Yeah, there's so much, really well said. Thank you for that. I'm always partial to the idea of materialism and happiness is trying to drink the ocean with a fork, you know, but it just makes so much more sense when you start, when you start seeing the world like, what the hell does that even mean? Oh, I get it, you know but i want to take us back to huxley for a minute because i love the guy and if you look at his um if you look at the collection of books that he that he's written and you look at him

from a lifetime basis the way in which he produced him from how he lived his life and the age that he wrote him you know you have like a perennial philosophy the doors of perception brave new world and then the island at the end which is like the the the what it can be i think but if we talk about Brave New World for a moment. You know, let's take the idea of soma as ketamine, right? Because you talked a little bit in the beginning of this conversation about the experiments that you were doing by electrocuting mice and trying to solve the problem of PTSD. And ultimately, if I remember correctly, we were talking about it being disassociative. You're not solving the problem. You're just disassociating from it so you can continue to go on. And I worry sometimes that

you know, when you begin to see big pharma and, you know, these, you begin to see like a lot of executives that are like, listen, we're going to give this to the people. It's going to make a little bit more productive over here. Like, really what you're trying to do is just get people to disassociate all the trauma from their workplace so they can continue to do their job. And in some ways, we are acting out brave new world in that fashion right there. So it bothers me to see that aspect. of it. Like, oh, I see. We're just going to have yoga on the slave ship now. Okay, it's going to be all

better, everybody. Just do some yoga and then get back to work. What do you think about the idea of people sort of using psychedelics, ketamine, and these other things in the world as a disassociity so they can continue to move on in their life?

Is that something I'm making up, or do you see that pattern there as well? Well, I definitely, no, I know what you're talking about. And the psychedelics, you know, I mean, people have, yeah, people use psychedelics for productivity all the time. Right. They use it for, yeah, they use that for productivity. And yeah, there's all this like, oh, like self-care, self-care, you know. And it's like, and it's kind of just lip service, you know.

it's not there there isn't really a vested interest in making people happy and healthy um you know I don't know if I would liken soma to ketamine I would more liken it to like a benzodiazepine maybe because it's an sri as well yeah or even yeah SSRI because I mean ketamine at least um there is some you get in touch with with emotions and trauma um but yeah with with the soma it's like oh i i feel yeah i feel down s sri it's going to bring me up i feel anxious benzo it's going to relax me um and yeah there's i i don't see like i i just don't see society making an effort to really put mental well-being first. It's, like I said,

like you read a mental health crisis in one article, next article, it's the Apple Pro goggles. And it's just like, how do you not see the irony in that, you know? Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question. Totally. Yeah, in some ways, if we look at it from a, symbolic point of view. Like Apple's creating these blinders that you put on. Like if you think about that headset is like just hey don't pay attention to anything else. Just look at this thing. Oh,

you want mental health? There's an app for that. Just strap this thing on your face. Quit looking around. Like it's it's weird how the world will show you what's happening if you're willing to look around and see this narrowed vision or this you know, it's become so pornographic the world that hey, just stop paying attention to it and strap these goggles on your face. It's better. You know, it's, and in some ways, it's kind of sad to think that, but I do see it in a sort of dystopian way like that. But let me try to shift gears for a minute and talk about.

Well, it's, I also just want to say, like, it's just so missing the point of, like, recently Jonathan, I think his name is Jonathan Potter. He recently asked on LinkedIn, was like, what are why are all of these psychedelic stocks failing? Like you wouldn't think that they would be failing, given how much hype there is around it. And I kind of just said as a joke and everyone, everyone liked the comment. But I was like, I think it's the, I think it's like the omnipotent plant medicine spirits that are picking up on the bad vibes in the industry.

And they're like, you don't deserve the sanctity of this medicine yet. Yeah. And what I mean by that is like, yeah, it's a joke, but it's true. Like, I just feel like, again, all the apps, like there's an app for your mental health. Like they're missing the point of what psychedelics should be, which is it's about community. It's about connection. It's about reconnecting with your environment and everything that's a lot. live. And there's just, that's just lacking. And it's just, the stocks are failing because it's

just not the space for it. You know, I don't think psychedelics are meant to be in this white coat medical environment that's, they should be done in like in a, in more of a nurturing, you know, ketamine, like you're on a dentist chair. People, people like have horror stories about Yeah. It's, um, so I, I just, I'm, I guess I am disappointed and afraid that the psychedelic industry is going to get lost and caught up in that, um, in that like in the corporate, the money, the white coat, the medicalization of it all. Like, I, I really don't want that to happen because I don't think that's what psychedelics

are about and should be about. Yeah. I agree 100%. And I think a lot of people share that that sort of realization like, hey, this is happening. But if we, if I continue with what you're talking about, the way in which the medical stocks or the psychedelic stocks seem to fail, we can take another example if you look at another plant medicine like cannabis. Like cannabis was sort of patient zero and all of a sudden they try to monetize it and they create all these industries around it. What happens? The price drops to nothing. It's the same spirit saying, yeah, this is great.

Get it out there for everybody and then I'm going to make it free. You know, it's almost like a Trojan horse strategy. Like, yeah, let's get this stuff into medicine. Yeah, psychedelics for Big Pharma Perfect. And then all of a sudden, the doctor, you know, we're seeing this switch from the doctor that would prescribe a benzo or suffoxin or, you know, one of these interesting chemicals that is made to help addiction. But that doctor has never ever tried that, Doug, and nor will they ever.

But when you look at psychedelics, you see the facilitator is someone who has a real relationship with the medicine instead of just being prescribed the medicine. The practitioner actually has a relationship with the medicine so they know what the person is going to go through. Maybe that's what psychedelics are doing on some level is the same way that when you take a psychedelic or an entheogen and it gets into your body and it begins to change your perspective, maybe that's like a conscious that's happening throughout our communities, right? right now and throughout the world is if we look at the if we look at our community as a body if we look at our state as a body if we look at our world as a body and the psychedelics beginning to permeate that body we see consciousness changing is that too big of a metaphor i mean it seems plausible to me right like it seems like the first kind of come up on this world changing paradigm oh yeah no i think that's spot on i think that

But when, no, because, you know, I think we're all, we're all one universal mind. We're all one universal mind. So given that, if you, when one of us raises our consciousness, elevates our consciousness, that does permeate that one universal mind. And it does elevate everyone's consciousness. So it's kind of like a domino effect in a way. So I do think that this is like the psychedelics are playing a role in that. I just, I mean, I agree.

Like facilitators should have a personal relationship with the medicine. But are they going to require that? It just seems like it just seems like in these spaces, it would be one of those things where, oh, if you have the credentials, you can administer. this medicine. It doesn't seem like that industry or that field is at a place where they would, you know, because that's shamanism. In shamanism, in order to treat someone, you had to have gone through it yourself and healed it within yourself. In Western medicine, it's not like that. You get the training, you learn it in a textbook, and off you go. So I don't know, that's another

concern of mind, that they're going to allow people to facilitate the medicine that don't have experience with it. Okay, so let's broaden this particular discussion. Yes, somebody who is going to try to treat someone with medicine should not only have a relationship with that medicine, but they should have gone through it. And when we look at the doctors today, they have read it in a textbook sometimes. But isn't that the same sort of relationship that we have, not only with psychedelics, but with school, with everything. And if you look at it, like, that's a, you have taken a path that has decided,

I'm not going to deal, the system is stupid. Like, I'm going to learn from a guy who knew somebody who had a friend whose dad actually had the lived experience. Well, what is that? That's ridiculous. You should be learning from people that have the lived experience so that you can have the lived experience and then you can teach it. But you should not be able to teach any course, in my opinion, anything unless you've lived it. Like, how else do you know? Like you don't know.

People sit up and they get master's degrees or PhDs for studying someone else's particular theory that never, you know, they didn't apply anything. And I think that that is why we've gotten so far off track. And I think that psychedelics are showing us that. It's like, you guys have gotten so far off the path. You don't even have lived experience. experience anymore. All you have is the words of the people who came before you. And it's like we're trapped in this bubble. And we have failed to go into the forest. We have we have not listened to the call. And I on some level when I think about it like that, is, is that model dying? Like if I know I'm kind of rambling right here. So forgive me if you can, if you can, okay, I'm taking it somewhere.

I promise. So again, if I go back to this idea that generations, the younger generation, the, you know, the, the millennials, the Xers, and then the boomers. It seems to me that we have lived the life of the boomers because they're such a big generation for so long. There's still the elders, and there's so much they have to you. I'm so thankful for a lot of the things. However, we are outgrowing a large part of their ideas. Their ideas have constrained us in a way that have allowed us to be almost, I'm not using this word as a pejorative, but retarded in some way.

Like we can't grow because we're so confined to this narrow scope of a boomer vision, whether it's the octogenarians in Congress, the octogenarians in government, the octogenarians running tech, like just thank you. But it seems to me that their ideas are dying. And rightfully so, every idea should have its time. But maybe that's a big part of what's happening here is that part of us as a body is dying. and a large part of us, if you look at the wars that are happening, they're all boomer ideas. And so many of the problems we have today are these ideas that don't work anymore.

And when you look at big tech or government, they're still trying to force feed us these ideas. These are the ideas you have to live in. Like, listen to us. But do you think that maybe what we're seeing is a generational struggle from like the Xers, the millennials and the Y's? Look at the way you're speaking about science versus the way a boomer speaks about science. Look at the path you took versus the path of, let's pretend that you have a mentor at the place you were working at that was, that hated the fact that you did what you did. Right. Like the unrealized dreams of those that came before us are somehow, we're shedding that skin like a snake does.

And we are beginning to emerge as this new form. And I think that that is in medicine. It's in science. It's in business. It's in this idea of money. But it's all changing. I know that's a shotgun out the back, but what do you think about that? No, we're definitely in a death rebirth process as a society.

I definitely see it and other people are seeing it. And I think that's why it's such a difficult time for people. Because, you know, they say it's like in labor, right? like labor is such a painful like death like process but at the same time um there's a birth that's happening it's like the the death and rebirth happen at the same time yeah and i think and i think that's i think that's what's happening now yeah for sure i think i think the old ways are dying and and i think um and i think there is a rebirth happening and there is like you know i I recently saw an article about academia.

Like people, people are leaving academia. People hate it. People see how it's just all about, like, competition and getting into a high-impact journal and low pay. And so all these institutions, I think people are seeing them for what they are. And I think that's why they're failing. Yeah, I mean, there are, there are like this Gallio commission report, like there are, there are sciences who are much older than I am boomers who do see that there's a problem, you know. But, but yeah, I do agree that that we're in a critical point right now in society and time.

Yeah, there's a great book called The Fourth Turning by Levi Strauss. He talks a lot about cyclical generations and how things transpire between generations. And when I think about it from a generational point of view, I think about, I'll use you as an example. You're seeking the wisdom of those that came before you so you can interpret it and give it back to the next generation. And in doing so, you're trying to maintain the integrity of it. But at the same time, you're using their wisdom and you're sort of mixing. it with your lived experience before you pass it on to somebody else. And it seems to me that that's something that people like yourself and other people that may be

aspiring to become the leaders of tomorrow should be seeking out. They should be seeking out the wisdom of the people that came before you in a very powerful and a very truthful way and then interpreting that evidence to their life and passing it on, kind of becoming a bridge to that next generation because as much of animosity as I sometimes feel towards the older generation, I have a lot of respect for them to. I don't mean to paint with such a broad brush that when I say boomers like every boomer. Like I shouldn't have really painted with that broad brush. But it seems to me that the ideas that came before us have been very helpful and nurturing

in so many ways. But just like a birth, the baby that struggles to come through the birth canal, like you must, like if you do not come through the birth canal, you die. And death and childbirth is a real thing that happens all the time, sometimes to the mother, sometimes to the baby. But those deaths mean that sometimes the species won't live on. Those deaths mean that the ideas won't be carried on. And I think that that is the passion with which I'm trying to speak today is this idea that, look, our ideas must prevail. It's sad. I guess. get the wars and I get all this stuff, but it's necessary.

Like those things are going to happen. We shouldn't be stuck in those ideas. We should be desperately trying to come up with new systems. And we need people to have the courage like you to, even though you probably could have had a very comfortable life staying where you were, staying in your lane, staying focused on electrocuting mice and trying to heal PTSD in this narrow fashion. You probably could have been really successful at it, whatever that word means. comfortable at it and lived this life that was carved out in a box feed.

But you chose not to. Something inside you called to you and said, no, I think there's something better. And you chose to believe in that. You chose to hear that voice and listen to it. And consequences be damned. Money be damp. I'm going to follow my passion. And I think that that is what other people should be looking at.

And I'm hopeful. I know that your story inspires me. And I hope that it inspires other people out there. because I think that that is the path forward. And I know that's, let me shift gears a little bit and talk about, and that's there's something you want to add to that. No, no, I think, I mean, yeah, thank you for, thank you for that. But yeah, I agree that I think when you are aligned with what you are meant to be doing,

you're going to be successful. Like, there's this idea that, that, that, success comes like in in certain ways only. But I think that when you are doing what you're meant to be doing, the success will just happen. It'll just happen. And that's what happened to me. Like I, you know, I think that, you know, people were surprised that I went to do, went off to do this and I ended up at this prestigious conference presenting research. It's like what? But it's because I was doing what I was supposed to be doing and what I was passionate

about. And yeah. How does that feel? Like, how does it feel to take this leap of faith and probably have some naysayers around and maybe those naysayers aren't bad people? Maybe they're just, they are people that didn't have. the faith and so there's some resentment there they're not bad but how does it feel to kind of have that negativity a little bit surrounding you and then have this alignment that you believed in

happen what does it feel like when you're at that conference and like you've you've kind of gotten to this spot what does that like um yeah i mean so the naysayers right like the thing is i like i was saying earlier i just my intuition has just really when you when you meditate when you're on the spiritual path, your awareness expands to the point where you're, you just become more intuitive and more, more trusting. So, and when, when these naysayers were like, what, what are you, what are you doing? I wasn't going to be like, oh, well, I can like sense the future. So I know I'm going to be okay. Like, I don't want to say that because I would have seemed insane. So I was just like, that's fine if you want to think that you know i'm throwing my life away and and whatever like

that's fine you can think that it's it's really inconsequential like there's there is no consequence um of what you think for what you think of what what i'm doing um and of course like you have to um there has to you have to have like some some strength right because not some people might get and maybe this is what people thought was going to happen to me, because I seem so petite and everything, and I'm like, you can say something to me and break me, but it's like, no, just, it's fine. If you don't, if you don't see it, then it's not for you to see. It's not for you to understand. But then, and, and yeah, I was like, I knew I would prove you wrong, and I did. And, but, yeah. It's sometimes amazing to me to think,

think how when you truly rise above a situation, some of the emotions that you may have felt in the past you seem to rise above, right? Like if you really are, at least in my opinion, it seems to me that when you were really not bothered by someone, like you can't really feel anger towards them. You can't really feel resentment towards them, right? Like even though they may have said some things that were aimed to hurt you, or maybe even they try to hurt you, rising above those, those sort of emotions. Would you call that surrender? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I think that the ultimate, not caring what people think and not paying attention to what people think is the ultimate surrender because the ego wants to control everything. It wants to control other people's opinions of you.

It wants to control how, how you're perceived, how everything, you know, to make sure that you're going to have success. So I think that that is the ultimate surrender, which is, you know, you can think whatever you want and it's fine. I'm not going to try to control your perception. I'm just going to surrender to as long as I'm aligned with truth, I'm going to surrender to everything else. That's beautiful. My next question was going to be, you know, what is the relationship between surrender and success?

But I think you kind of answered it right there. I think, well, you know, in the Bhagavad Gita, they, there's something that, which is like the it's like the bible of of hinduism right um you know and this is something they taught us at the ashram always like never focus on the fruits of your actions work like just focus on your actions and putting a hundred percent into that and and and and like dedication and passion and integrity and do not be concerned with the fruits of it. That is up to God. You have to surrender to the fruits of the action.

Just focus on the action. And so what that essentially means, right, is you have to surrender to whether or not you'll be successful as well. That's really well said. And I think that's really good advice for people to do it. And it takes away the, it takes away the, the, um, greed in a way. Because a lot of the times the things we develop or sometimes in a corporation or in ourselves as individuals, we develop ideas based on what the outcome might gain us instead of

developing ideas on what they might do for us. You know, it's an interesting concept. It's just a little change of words right there, but it's a, it's a big difference. It's fascinating to think about it. Well, yeah, I mean, if everything, yeah, when you're doing things for status, for success, for money, as opposed to trying to bring something for the greater good, I mean, you're missing the entire point. you're missing the entire point. So I think that's what I think that's what Krishna was getting at in the Gita

in terms of not focusing on the fruits but just on the action. Yeah, it's such a more fulfilling life, right? Like if you're sometimes focusing on the fruits too forces you to have anxiety about the future or be trapped in the past because I didn't want that plan or I don't know, is this isn't going to bloom or not? instead of just focusing on the present moment.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is like a lifelong, that's like something you work on your whole life to, to decondition yourself, to not constantly be stuck in the past or the future. Because the ego just, it clings to that. It does not feel comfortable in the present moment, because it's like how am I going to survive unless I am constantly planning about for something or thinking about something?

It's like there's, I think it's just a survival instinct. So it takes a lot of work to become present. Do you think that maybe part of this awakening that we're kind of seem to be going through is integrating the ego into our own sort of like, you know, I was talking to Jessica Rochester, and she was telling me that she had read and had been in conversation with some people that think maybe what's beginning to happen is that the ego, the mind, as we know it, is beginning to find its way down to the world of instincts. Like, we all have instincts. Like, you know, you kind of, hey, this person finds me, finds me interesting. Or, hey, this person doesn't like me. or I feel like this is a bad situation,

or I think we should go in this door over. We have these instincts that we intuit. Is it possible that's what's happening now with this sort of, you know, people talk about ego, death and stuff like that? But is it possible that's what's happening is that we're seeing the ego be integrated into us as a whole and moving down to an instinctual level

where we no longer need it to be this giant troubleshooter running our lives? Is maybe part of what we're seeing this awakening, a sort of integration of the ego into us as a whole? So you're saying that we are becoming more instinctual? Well, I'm saying that it seems to me that our ego, that when we live our life through our ego, we seem to be constantly abrasive. We seem to be constantly looking at everything as a threat.

At least in my opinion, I've heard it described, and I think it fits well that our ego is like a threat detector. And when we live through our ego, everything is threatening to us. And so maybe instead of having that, people live their life through their ego, us becoming aware of it helps it drop down to a more manageable size

where it just becomes this part of us. And instead of an ego death, it's more of an ego integration. And the world we're beginning to see emerge like that. Yeah, I think, well, that's kind of, that's what the spiritual, process spiritual journey is ultimately about it's about everything it's about making everything that was unconscious conscious so a lot of it's about like seeing a lot of behavior that did stem from ego

it's about being aware of that behavior about seeing it for what it is and making it conscious because, you know, like the great Carl Jung said, unless you make the unconscious conscious, it's going to direct your life and you're going to call it fate because you're acting from this unconscious ego, instinctual lack of awareness, and it's just kind of like leading you down this path that you have no control over. And the more you work on yourself, whether it's via any kind of psychospiritual growth, psychedelics, yoga, whatever, it's all of those unconscious patterns become conscious. And it's, you know, these unconscious patterns are called karma. And so you're burning through all this karma and becoming more of a conscious person.

not just like an intelligent monkey, you know. You know, I was reading through some of your bio too, and you talk about comparative mystical experience. Like what is that? Is that just different mystical experience from different cultures or is that? Maybe you can explain that a little bit. Yeah, it is, it is mystical experiences in different, in different, in different various religions and spiritual traditions.

Nice. Yeah, the ego dissolution though is the, it's kind of the core of the mystical experience, right? Yeah. Yeah, and but I was just, I was just, I guess, you know, I think in the West, especially when you hear mystical experience, experience, you assume it's something blissful and amazing. And it is that.

It is. But I like to say it's the best and worst thing that will ever happen to you. Yeah. Because, because at least in the Hinduism tradition, what's happening in a mystical experience is there's this, have you heard of Kundalini Rising, right? I have. Yeah. Yeah, so there's this. Maybe there's some people who haven't heard about it.

You should explain it for them. Okay, yeah. So there's this, there's this energy that sits at the base of the spine and it's coiled kind of like a snake. And as you are doing, as you are doing any kind of spiritual practice and this, and it also happens in psychedelics, that energy, that snake starts to move. through various like energy centers and chakras up the spine. And, um, and it's like a purification process. So as that's happening, your, the chakras are getting cleared, which, which means that that you're going to be confronting a lot of energetic blocks.

And what's sitting in those energetic blocks a lot of times is repressed emotion and trauma. and it's a lot of times it's going to be it's going to manifest in in like crazy ways like you're going to it might be sobbing it might be shaking trembling screaming and and and so that's something that yeah and and i think with you know i was speaking to someone recently who said with he works with five MEODMT. He works, he's a therapist. And he was saying that a lot of times when you take five MEO, he sees like in his patients and his clients that they have trouble integrating back into society. And he was like, we were saying like, what's going on? And he was like, yeah, it's probably the kundalini just rises way too fast. And it's just way too shocking. And it's just way

too shocking for the system. But yeah, I'm not sure where I was getting at with that. But yeah, I think I just think there's, yeah, what I was going to say is just there's this idea that mystical consciousness is this beautiful thing. And it is. But psycho-spiritual growth, you know, they say you don't go to heaven. You grow to heaven. So that's just something that that's another thing in the psychedelic space where it's like people have this idea that you take a psychedelic once and your whole life is changed. And that's that's not that's not how it works.

It's it's a process. It's a growth. It's a growth process and it's not always going to look pretty. And if it doesn't look pretty, it's not because you're having a bad trip. It's supposed to be brutal. It's supposed to be brutal. It's so true. It makes me want to cry a little bit when I think about, you know, one of my favorite authors is Merci Eiliad, and he talks about the terror before the sacred. I think it's a great way to describe a mystical experience is, you know, you're just shaking in terror, like, peeing your pants in front of this thing that's so beautiful because there's nothing else you can do. You're just paralyzed by fear. It's a weird concept to think about being paralyzed by fear in the presence. presence of something so perfect.

Like those things don't, they're not congruent. It's like, why shouldn't you praise it? Shouldn't you be like amazed by it? But it seems to me that that it's, it's a great way to describe it because there's not a whole lot of words when you see something that you, you know, if you think of like a, sometimes we see it in the predator prey model. Like an animal will pause and fear because they know they're about, they're in the presence of something that can just destroy them.

And I think that that happens in the, in the experience, the mystical experience, or sometimes in the psychedelic experiences, is that you're paralyzed because you have been forced to see the world as it is instead of the way you've always wanted it to be. And all of a sudden, for a moment, you get to be at the mountaintop and the blinders are off and you see everything. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, I think sometimes, too, with the, with the relationship that people have with psychedelics, it's this idea that you want to always be in that state. But the true nature of psychedelics should be to go to that state and then come back and integrate it into your life or help other people integrate it into their life. But it does seem like it can be used as an escape in that, that method. When I think about mystics, I, I'm curious is, is there a certain type of mystic? experience that calls to you.

Are you like, like, you know, when we think of St. Teresa or maybe you think of, you know, some other Indian mystics, like, but is there a certain type of mystical experience that you found yourself more curious about? Like a certain, a certain culture or? Yeah, yeah. Like if, if it seems to me that for me, sometimes I, I fantasize about like, oh, I wonder what that one would be like or I wonder what that when you read the interpretations of the different mystics like they're always fascinating but it seems to me for some reason I think of um um saint you know St. John or St. Teresa the Christian experience. Maybe that's because that's what I grew up in a little bit.

But I'm wondering if the same is for you. Well, um, yeah. I mean I'm I'm I'm drawn to I'm particularly drawn to I would say Hinduism. and Christianity. And I was raised Jewish. So, but Christianity, I just think like Jesus's teachings are, there's nothing like it. And his, I think his, when he says, you know, lest you become like children, you'll never enter the kingdom of heaven. And I think that is so, I mean, because what he's essentially saying in that is, unless you become that trusting, naive child that's just surrendering to everything, right? You're not going to find that peace and happiness that the kingdom of heaven has to offer. And that's kind of, you know, what Sadr Guru says, he says, you'll never find security by looking for ways to make yourself more secure. Security comes in total abandon, meaning total surrender. And I think that that

really is like surrender and trust just plays a huge role in how, you know, in spiritual growth, I think. So that's, you know, Jesus and Christianity, I think, I think is huge for me. But Hinduism, you know, I do like Eastern, because Eastern spirituality is, Western is inherently dualistic. There's more of a, of course, like, yeah, the mystics talk about being in union with God. But in general, the Western is a little more dualistic. there's a, so there's a separation between you and God.

And in one way, it's good because it makes you more devotional. You have something to be devotional too. But in another way, it's bad because then there's like all this guilt and, oh, I'm not good enough. And I don't deserve to be with God or I'm a sinner, all of this. So I don't know. I think they're all great. I think like the perennial philosophy says,

they all point to one truth, right? Right. So it's hard to say. I really can't pick one. Yeah. It's intoxicating. I love talking about it and thinking about what I can learn by reading some of their accounts

and how much they speak to our lives. Maybe it's just getting to read. or listen to people whose stories are inspiring. I really enjoy it. And I have enjoyed this conversation. It's incredible. I really appreciate you spending time with me today. I really love getting to learn about you

and what you've done so far. And I know that the paper that you're getting ready to produce that goes with the poster is going to be awesome. But before I let you go, is there anything else you want to touch on before we go? Is there anything else I want to touch on? No, I just, you know, I really hope that I'm just, I really hope that this psychedelic industry stuff

doesn't get out of control in terms of, you know, they're trying to do everything to, it's like all these studies like about, oh, you don't even need the experience, You don't even need, you just, we can just like, you know, rewire your brain, you know. It's just like, so I'm just really hoping that it does not become this, it does not look like Huxley's Brave New World, basically. You know what? Do you have a few more minutes? I want to be mindful of your time.

Okay, no, no, good. Okay, good. Let's touch on that because there's a really interesting, I don't have my notebook here, but there's a really interesting study that just came out in nature. from the from Helsinki and in that particular study they spoke about um the I'm going to butcher it but it's it's not the 5H 2A receptor it's like LT yeah yeah thank you for knowing that I'm so so you know that so okay but that kind of speaks to this idea of hey let's just develop a new chemical that can adapt to that particular receptor and then we can have all this change without any of the experience but I think that that speaks to what you're talking about what

Why do you think people should be worried? And why do you think that it's a problem if the psychedelic powers or community tends to go that route of not having the experience and just having the rewiring of the brain? Why is that wrong? And maybe you can speak that a little bit more. Because like the psychedelics are the reason why they're so revolutionary and why there's such a paradigm shift is, is because the trip is allowing the conscious mind to perceive the workings of the unconscious mind,

which is usually, you know, out of reach for us. But in doing that, it gives you, it opens up a great opportunity to make changes in your subconscious beliefs, which are the core of, you know, like depression, for instance, is essentially just, you're going to have Shannon Duncan on your show tomorrow, right? Yeah. Well, he, you know, I read his book and he really explains it well, like, what psychedelics do, what mental illness is, is just unexpressed pain and emotion that's just been sitting there.

and the psychedelics open up a window into access into that and to process it. It's unprocessed emotion. And so I think that, yeah, and I think that if you take that away, I just think it's missing the entire point. And again, it's going back to that like, no feeling, no feeling, just take the soma, you know. It's like they just They're doing everything to stop people from feeling And I think, I don't know, this is going to get a little

conspiratorial, but I... Yeah, do it. It's like they don't want, they don't, because what are psychedelics doing? That experience expands your consciousness. It opens your mind of seeing the world in a different way. And it's like, they don't want that. They don't want that.

They want the... Who are they? You got to tell me who they are first. I don't know. know the pharmaceutical companies the scientific establishment the the whoever yes i'm with you um yeah i just i think the experience and they're always like oh well it's just going to stop the hallucinations but it's like it's not about the hallucinations it's about the emotional processing that happens on psychedelics like you know it's not no one's trying to you know go to chukchella and

and see patterns and fractals. Like, that's not what it's about. It's about the emotional processing in the experience. So that's just a concern of mine. And, yeah, hopefully that explained why I think it's a concern. Yeah, I love it. And I share your concern. And I think that the majority of people do.

On some level, I guess I could see, you know, in the event that somebody had like traumatic brain injury or they they were on on you know some sort of a defibrillator or not a defibrillator but like on a on a breathing machine or something like that like i could see how that particular type of Parkinson's any type of neurodegenerative disorder absolutely but again they want to take away it's like you have to understand that these illnesses are existential in nature and So there has to be that change in perspective that, I don't know, that there has to be that phenomenological experience of like, where am I in the grand scheme of things? Where is my trauma in the grand scheme of things? Why did I experience this? Like, I just think, I think it's necessary.

And that's the thing. It's probably just like we don't want to accept that these illnesses are existential and spiritual in nature. They're just biochemical. So do you think like there's a great story and I think I can tell it well. So can I tell you a quick story

and then I want to get your opinion of like what you think? Is this possible that this could happen again? So there's this great video of Ram Dass talking to Terence McKenna. And Terence McKenna asks Ram Dass. Like what, you know, why did the great, you know,

revolution of psychedelics fail. What was it wrong? What happened? And Ram Dass in his fashion just kind of leans back and he's rubbing his beads. He just gives like the long paws. It's so beautiful. He's like, you know, there's a great story.

And there's a story of this, you know, this very incredible, you know, disgusting, but violent general. And he's sweeping his way through the Asian continent. He's this crazy warlord and he is just ruining places and he is devastating everything and he's just very violent. And the only resistance that he meets is with the priest of that time or the monks of that time. And so he's going out of his way just to slaughter them in ways to make not only the people afraid but the monks afraid. And so as he's making his way to the countryside, slaughtering villagers and just doing disgusting things to monks.

so everyone will be afraid. He sends, he goes into this town, and the leaders of that town meet him, and they say, oh, general, everyone is so frightened of you. You're the greatest, most horrible warlord of all times. And all the monks have fled except for one. And the general is like, you can just see his eyes get all big. And he's like, where is this monk?

How dare he despise? How dare he not understand how great and terrible I am? Where is he? Oh, he's in the Osher. And so the general makes his way over there. he boom, opens the doors. And there's the monk just standing there with a smile on his face, all, you know, receiving him.

And the warlord walks up to him with spit coming out of his mouth. And he's like, don't you know who I am? I could take my sword and I could run it through your belly without blinking an eye. And the monk just looks at him and he smiles. And he's like, and don't you know who I am? I could have your sword run through my belly without blinking an eye. And Terrence McKenna stands back and he's just like, in his fashion, that's a good story. And he's like, so that's what happened.

He's like, he goes, you know, it seems to me that when the powers that be, when they came with guns for us, we ran for the hills. And so my question to you is when authority comes, when they come, big pharma, the governments, the military industrial complex, when the system around us is crumbling and they see people like us making a new system. And they come for us. Will we stand or will we run for the hills? Well, what are they going to do exactly? I think they can kill people, right? I mean, like, it seems to me that there's a, I mean, I don't know. What do you think?

I mean, well, I am, you know, I am prepared for any, like, this is going to be triggering for them, right? For anyone who's in that, who subscribes to that paradigm, right? It's not something they want to hear. So you have to prepare yourself, I guess, for the flack. And just know that you're standing. Yeah. Just know that you're aligned with truth.

But I mean, I guess I'm in the, I'm a fatalist. And it's like if they want to come, let them come. Let them come. Right. Love it. I'm at least, at least like I'm coming from a place where I genuinely want to help like people. It's for me, it's not about the dollar signs and the fancy whatever. So I think as long as you are, you know, light always wins.

Light always wins. I love it. I know I'm a little bit hyperbolic. I'm going to kill people, but it's probably not going to happen. And in some ways, like I just embellish it a little bit, but forgive me for being so embellishing. I love that idea of like just talking about it and stuff like that. But I think that one thing that people can only do is take things away from you. And if you're okay with having things taken away from you and you understand that when things are taken away from you, you just become, you still have yourself.

you still have the people that love you. And if those things get taken away from you, then, you know, maybe those relationships weren't real. But all people can do is really to punish you as like a negative reinforcement. They can take things away from you. But if the things in your life that truly make you happy aren't the material things, then you'll be okay. You'll live a better life.

And maybe it's not about getting things. Maybe it's about having things taken away and still being happy with life. Maybe that's the goal. Exactly. I mean, it's like, exactly. You take things away for me, but that's the point. I am not relying on things to be happy. Right.

And, you know, you are and what you're doing is just trying to taste something through your ear by, you know, by, you know, by, that's what it essentially comes down to. So, yeah. How much of, I don't know the answer to this question, but sometimes I think that a large part of the problems we face today is this idea of accumulation or getting things. And if we could get people to, and I think that sometimes therapy is getting people to understand that the pursuit of getting things is driving you crazy. Just maybe let those things go, right? Does that seem to be something that runs through the, is that sort of like a river? that runs through the world of mental illness is this idea that we need to grab so much

and hold on to so many things? Well, I think that, yeah, I mean, I do think that it's like the more you have, it's this paradox where the more you have, the less happy you become. I mean, if materialism and comfort and all of that was

was a guarantee for happiness, then you would think a country like America would be the happiest country in the world. And that's definitely not the case, right? There's countries where people have much less, much less and they're happier. So I definitely think it's a problem. but it's also again there's a vested interest in consumerism so so you know

it's going to be hard to get people to not to want to break out of that pattern yeah I love the fact that you call it a pattern you know I think another at least for me and some of the people that I know that I've spoken to when we talk about patterns I think about identity identity, you know, for, I'll use myself as an example. As someone who was, I was a UPSI ever for like 26 years, but you can use this for your, whatever you've done, sometimes the things that you do become your identity. And I think that that's problematic, not only for me, but for other people. Like, if you define yourself by the thing you do every day, I think it's very one-dimensional. And my hope is that people would define themselves, not by the one thing they do every single

day, but by the relationships that they have. Maybe you're a, maybe you're a doctor, a lawyer, or a truck driver, or a garbage man, or a nurse, or what you do is important, but it's not as relevant as the relationships you have with the people around. You're a father, you're a wife, you're a husband, you're a daughter. You know, the relationships you have with people, I think are a better identifier of who you are than what you do. Do you think that's actually a lot of hear it um yeah i i i would say i would i would go even further than that i would say who are you when um when you strip away your because you know this is something that that's sad guru talks about all the time which is like your body is just an accumulation of food over the

years, right? You, when George was born, you weren't born with the body you have now, but you're still George, you were still George then. And the same thing with your mind, the content of your mind are constantly changing. You don't have the same thoughts you did when you were three as you do now. So, and that's what the spiritual process is about. It's who are you when all of that is stripped away? When your mind, mind, when your thoughts, when your body, when all that is stripped away, you're just pure awareness. And that's, that is who you are. That's who we all are.

And we're all part of that one universal mind that is just pure awareness. So that is what we should be connecting to. Yeah. I love it. I think it's beautiful. And I hope that more people can begin to see that. I think it's a good meditation just to think about. And if you do start thinking about who you are,

whether it's, you know, reading Plato or listening to Sad Guru or speaking to your wife or your husband or just watching your kids play, I think that idea of who are you is a very fantastic way to begin to see your life in a different way. And it's very positive. Although sometimes when you ask that question, and you might not like the results you get. And if you don't like the results you get when you ask who you are, that's just a way to begin changing your life. I don't know.

It's fascinating to me to think about all the different ways in which we as a world are growing and to see the catalysts that are making them happen. And I think it's really exciting to see this new world emerging of psychedelic therapy and awakening happen. What are you most excited about for the future of what's happening now? I mean, I am excited about the awakening. You know, some days I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it's where, which direction it's headed.

But I always try to remind myself that it is like the death rebirth process. It's like the labor pains. We're in the labor pains right now. Sure. And all these mental health crises. all the suffering in the world, I think, I think it worked, that's the labor pains. So, but I am excited about it because I do think we're living in a, in a paradigm shift. And I do hope that we are, we are headed towards a, you know, I do think spirituality is going to become increasingly

popular and more people are going to seek it. I, I do think that's going to happen. I, I think it already is happening because I think people are going to come to realize that it's where it's where true happiness lies. It's not in materialism. It's just not there. Yeah. So when I think about that, you know, I was think of like, for some reason, I've been thinking a lot about the double helix.

And when I think about the two things that are connected with the end of materialism comes maybe more spirituality. I think that they are, they are, I forgot the term. for that, but they run in different wavelengths or something like that. But on some level, to the people that have lived their lives celebrating and have found themselves embracing the world of materialism, it's going to look like death to them. And you can see the power structure is like, oh, my God, the economy, we're all going to die. But here comes this other wave of spirituality.

And when you read like the literature of people in not only, all of it, but I mean, you can find the echoes of true happiness in devastation. When you read biographies of people who live through traumatic times, they say everything was taken from me, but I was never happier. You know, you start thinking to yourself like, wow, how could that be? But it seems a lot. And maybe that's foreshadowing of what's about to happen. Maybe things are going to get economically bad. But maybe that also means that things are going to become spiritually beautiful. Maybe there needs to be this sort of calamity, this sort of breakdown in the material world we live in so that out of that we can have a more holistic approach to building a better

life. What do you think? I think that's spot on. I think that everything like, you know, I think COVID was like the beginning of the collapse. I mean, there was already a collapse before, but I think that was a huge turning point. And I do agree. I think that things have to get bad in order for people to find what's real. And I agree. I think that, you know, just every single day, there's an article, mental health crisis, mental health crisis. And I think people are not able to, yeah, I think it's just really tough for people to cope with the collapse that they're seeing and all the calamity and all the structures falling apart. And so that is contributing to the mental health crisis.

But at the same time, it's going to give birth to spirituality. So sometimes I think that everything that's happened to us has been like a school. Like you and I have been in this school. And like, let's just pretend that we've been in the school now for a long time. And we're part of this graduating class. And all of a sudden, Dr. Yusufova, the economy collapses. And there's people that are flooding your clinic. Like you have hardly the resources you need.

And you've been trained in psychosovova. medallic medicine, but there's, are you prepared for the hundreds, if not thousands of people that are going to be clamoring to get into the clinics to solve the mental trauma that's coming in your way? Are you prepared for that? Like if the economy just collapsed. It's like I can see it happening in a weird sort of way. And I don't think there's a whole lot of, I think for people that are practicing right now. Be prepared. Like, it could be a beautiful time, but beautiful not in the way we're used to. Beautiful in the way that you're able to help. people. Like, you know, I don't know.

Does that kind of make sense? Am I, am I, are you picking up and putting down here? You're basically asking, um, am I prepared for the fact that there's going to be a lot of people seeking home, right? Is that a crazy amount and you're not going to have the resources to do it and like the, the, yeah, exactly. Okay. So again, going back to Sadd Guru, what he always said, we have, we have as a society, all the resources. to help people. Like at this stage, we have all the resources. The only thing that's missing is consciousness. And so I do think that like, and that's why I hope, like, the, that people that are in power and that can make these decisions, make the right decisions, and don't

invest money in goggles that are just going to make people sicker and, um, and don't like take away the what makes psychedelics so healing in the first place like all these things if i think if we you know with the right it's not about a lack of resources it's about it's about the how people approach it and that's that's what worries me um so you know i i hope to to practice um you know you're going to have shannon Duncan on your show tomorrow and his book really, I really encapsulates what the healing process should look like. And so I just hope we don't stray away from that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we're on the right path when I speak to you or speak to Shannon tomorrow or so many cool people that have such a clear vision of how. they can help people. I think that that is one of the most beautiful things that I see. And it's something that drives me as like, I love the way this person sees the world. I love their passion for helping people.

I love their optimism. I love the struggles that they've been into. And it shows me the depth of their character and how they can help people. And I'm truly thankful. I could probably talk to you for like another hour. I got another podcast coming up. But this is really, really fun. And I'm really proud of everything you're doing.

And I hope that I, you know what? maybe before we go, I didn't even give you the opportunity to talk about the poster you presented. Maybe you could talk about that for a minute. I know that you have, that you presented that. And I know that there's, when I go on your page, I see everybody like, hey, Lubo, can you, I want this. I want that. I want the poster. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the poster that you presented.

Yeah. I mean, I did. I got into it a little bit with you. Right, right. essentially, you know, I used, I got the idea to, from a mentor of mine who, he said to like, kind of make it look like a graphic novel in a way, like to storyboard it. So I have him to think for that idea, Alex Harris. He, so what I did was I took AI art and kind of just created all the images that way.

And yeah, it's, it kind of just shows the therapeutic mechanisms of a mystical consciousness, which we spoke about earlier, the just how brutal it is, how brutal it is and how painful it can be. But the, but it's a process of transformation. and it happens, it happens gradually. And just anyone listening, like, you need, you want to be sobbing on the floor during your psychedelic trip. Like, you want that. That is where the healing is.

So, yeah, and that's, I mean, I'll post the poster and the paper very soon. I'm collaborating with the Erie Anthogenic Research Integration Education, so I'll have it up soon for everyone to see. But that's essentially what it gets at, just elucidating what mystical consciousness is really like. And how, because the ego causes so much resistance in healing. Like I remember, I was listening to Randall on your show. He was saying how there's like this, he had this. client or someone had this client where they would go into therapy and they would like only talk about things um they would kind of manipulate the conversation with their therapist to avoid talking

about what should be and and that's that's the ego that's the ego resisting um so that's why i think when there is ego dissolution it's that's where healing happens that's where true healing can happen And that's essentially, I guess, my poster. Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to present it without, because there's no, like, I need to, like, show it. But, yeah, I'll have it up soon for people to see. I've already sent it to a few people. Well, congratulations on that. You know, sometimes the psychedelic experience is very difficult to put into words.

And so I think that I'm always intrigued and somewhat mesmered. by people that are able to put something forth or bring something back. You know what I mean by that? Like sometimes those of us who find ourselves on a psychedelic journey, it's amazing. But I think that the goal for people, one of the goals that can be is to bring something back and bring it and release it into this world. It's like you're going and you capture this beautiful. I don't know if you want to capture a beautiful bird, but you capture an idea and then you can

bring it back here and set it free into this world. and somehow it flies away and creates beauty for everyone to see. But I love it. And I think that that's, and I'm looking forward to reading the paper because I really think that it's incredibly beautiful when people can capture something from a different realm and release it into this realm. And from what I've seen in the poster

and from what I've talked to you about, I think that that's what you're doing. And I'm really thankful for that. But before I let you go, where can people find you? And what do you have coming up? So right now you can only find me on LinkedIn. Just my name, Lubav Yusufova. And in terms of what I have coming up, like I said, I'll be releasing the paper and poster soon.

And I am going to be starting my program at CIS, which is a school that's very plugged in and perfect for me. So I'm going to be starting my clinical psychology program there. And yeah, and hopefully in a few years people will come to me and I can help them. I think you're already helping people right now. So I'm really thankful for your time. Hang on one second. I'm going to hang up with everybody, but I wanted to talk to you briefly for a moment afterwards. Yeah, yeah, sure.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us. Check out the links. Look forward to the people coming up. and I hope everyone has a beautiful day. Aloha.