TrueLife - Marieke van der Spek - What is….The Matter?

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/**Introducing Marieke van der Spec: A Pioneer in Psychedelic Assisted Coaching**We are thrilled to welcome Marieke van der Spec, a visionary in the field of psychedelic assisted coaching from the Netherlands. With a profound belief in turning potential into reality, Marieke guides individuals in overcoming personal growth barriers and exploring the limitless possibilities within themselves.Drawing from her extensive experience as a Psychedelic Assisted Coach at The Matter, Marieke has been transforming lives since June 2018. Her innovative approach is further enriched by her role as a trainer and coach with Mind Work Productions, where she has been a freelance coach since September 2021.Marieke’s professional journey is distinguished by her previous leadership roles in human resources, including senior HR positions at adidas Group, Nutricia, and Reebok Asia Pacific. This diverse background equips her with unique insights into personal development and growth.Join Marieke, Eric, and Noor at their upcoming psychedelic retreat from June 14-16, where they will welcome you to The Matter’s beautiful setting in Culemborg, Gelderland. Don’t miss this opportunity to embark on a transformative journey.Curious to learn more? Check out the video below and visit [this link]http://linkedin.com/in/mariekevanderspekhttps://thematter.nl/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles, the track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the birds are singing and the... Wind is at your back. I got a great show for you today, everybody, coming all the way from across the pond. I have with me the incredible Marika, and I am thrilled to introduce you to her.

She's a visionary in the field of psychedelic assisted coaching from the Netherlands with a profound belief in turning potential into reality. Marika guides individuals in overcoming personal growth, barriers, and exploring the limitless possibilities within themselves. drawing from her extensive experience as a psychedelic-assisted coach at The Matter, Marika has been transforming lives since June of 2018. Her innovative approach is further enriched by her role as a trainer and coach with Mind Work Productions, where she has been a freelance coach since September 21. Her professional journey is distinguished by her previous leadership roles in human resources, including senior HR positions at Adidas, Nutrition, and Reebok Asia Pacific,

And I kind of have a fond feeling for someone who has that much understanding of relationships. It sounds like human resources is a way in which you really have to understand relationships and points of view and awareness. And Marika, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing good. Thank you, George. Thanks for you having me on this show. Really, really excited.

So nice meeting you and your listeners, of course. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, I'm stoked. you're here. I'm a huge fan of psychedelics, huge fan of change and relationships and awareness. And maybe you can just fill in some background. Like, have you always been sort of an explorer? Have you always been curious? Or how did you get here? Yeah, I believe I am. I've always been really curious, you know, even as a child, I was always sort of like looking for things or finding things like little treasures. And also like, you know, before my birthday, I would,

just try to look for my gift or even for my brother and sisters. So I've been really, really curious all my life actually. And I think it started like, well, like I said, as a child growing up. But I've always sort of liked to see if there are other things or if things could go a little bit different than everybody else was doing it. Because I thought, well, you know, I know that. I've seen that. And maybe there's more. So every time, and I just, sometimes also a bit tiring because you're always looking for stuff. But no, I really, I really liked that. And yeah, it started like when I finished school, I think that was a bit of a drag. But, you know, when I, then at a certain point, I thought, okay, let's do something. I went for jobs and there

weren't really fulfilling. So I decided to go to the US as a nanny for a year. And I thought, let's, let's try that. And it was fun. It was really a lot of fun. But it also gave me sort of an insight, okay, I need to do something else with my life. And then I went back to school, did HR because I thought, okay, I think I have some sort of, there's something there. So I went for that. And, you know, that was also a funny thing. thing because when I finished my study, I was like, okay, so what am I going to do next? And I remember I visited a friend. He was working for Cirque du Soleil. And I thought, mom, maybe I'm just going to work for Cirque du Soleil, without any thought or reason or whatsoever.

And it just happened, you know? I was offered the job and I'm like, okay, let's do do this. And, you know, I remember my first working day, standing at a premier party in Zurich, in Switzerland, and it was my first working day. And I'm like, I can get used to this. So that was really fun. And, and, you know, sometimes I forget this. But I think in general, I get the feeling like if you are open and curious, there's so much more possible or there's so many things possible that even, you know, surprises you or amazes you. So that's what I really, really like. And I think that's sort of, maybe it's in my DNA.

I don't know. But it feels like a natural thing for me to always be curious and to see what else is there or, you know, what else is possible or to be playful. Yeah, that's that I think. And it gives me also lots of energy. that's it for you yeah i agree i i think there seems to be this sort of eryodony thread that runs to the tapestry of all the people i've been talking to and it is this idea of the curious mind this idea of the question why i wonder why that is why why is that and then the inner explorer begins

to take over and we just start sailing out into the sea of unknown and trying to figure things out. And it's so interesting to get to hear people's stories and how they've traveled out in the external world. And then it seems like on some level, the trip into inner space, which through psychedelics, or maybe it's breathwork or everyone, there's lots of different ways in order to investigate the inner terrain. But I think those two things are connected, right? The outer and the inner, like we're searching for stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think what you said about searching or sort of sailing. in the unknown. I love that. But do you know, the thing is, and that is also that I see in myself, is that we tend to, our brain is so much focused on predicting and is so scared to just jump or to see what comes up. And I mean, I have the same, of course. But I also notice if I'm able to sort of let that go and to trust. You know, it's like sort of laying on your back in the ocean and sort of float and see what shows up.

But it's, it can be really scary for people. And I mean, I see that, of course, in psychedelic journeys. It's also sort of like, okay, let's let let yourself fall backwards and just sort of trust that there's something. there. And even if there's nothing there to see what happens. Yeah. One of the one of the ways in which I fell in love with psychedelics was this feeling of being out of control and it being okay. And, you know, like, just like it all makes sense. I can't explain it, but it all makes sense. You know, and like, There's a certain sort of freedom that comes from seeing the doors of perceptions cleansed in a way. You know what I mean by that?

Like, is that too abstract? No, no, it's not. And you know, it moves me when you talk about it like that. Because it straight away gives me that feeling like, yes, that's it. That's it. It's like we're so used to think about all sorts of stuff, you know, like, okay, is this right? Or how do I feel about this? even during a psychedelic journey.

But I also feel sometimes that I'm in that, I'm in that space like you were talking about. And I'm like, okay, so I need to sort all these things out. And then it's like, there's nothing to sort out because it's all fine. And you know, then it's sort. And it feels like sort of a calmness coming over you like, it's all good. And that space I find, I mean, of course, I'm also in spaces that are like bumpy or roller coasters or things like that. But I think for me there's always a place to go and to sort of be there with yourself, trust yourself and feel it's okay. And what I really like, and you said it also in the introduction about potential, because I'm a big fan of looking at your potential.

And because you know what happens in psychedelic journeys. Sorry, I'm jumping right into it. It's like what I really find very interesting is that in general life, people focus constantly on what is not possible. or what's blocking them or they know exactly what it looks like, what it feels like, you know, it's like they're living that part. And that's why things are not moving.

So they're focused so much on that blockage. And with the psychedelic journey, and of course, you know, it's not always like that, but it is possible to look beyond and to get a sort of a look and feel of what it can be like. But then,

you know, at least, So that's what I always do before a psychedelic journey. I invite people to think about, okay, so you do know already what's not working. What would you like to look at? Or, you know, what would you like it to be? So what's your dream? What's what would you like? And most of the time they're not even huge things.

But, you know, more sort of like a personality thing. Or they, you know, I want to be more open or I want to be more curious or I want to be better. connected to my feelings and my emotions. And then I sort of try to ask them to get a visual or get a feeling for that. And then it's possible. And that's what I think that's such a beautiful part of working with psychedelics, because then it makes it so much easier to do something with that feeling and to, when you're out of that journey, to also know, okay, I can.

can do this or you know this is what I really like or and sometimes it's not so much in it's not in materials but it's much more in I want to feel this way I want to feel happy or I want to feel confident or I want to enjoy life more you know that sort of stuff and and and if I get the opportunity to be there and to support someone in that every time I'm like I'm amazed And I also, I feel humble and honored is not the right word, but especially humble that I'm able to be part of that and to hold the space for someone and give this person the opportunity to go beyond and to see what's possible. It's like, that's, you know, that's magic, that's beauty, that's love, that's, I can go on. You know, you know what it feels like. It almost sounds like, first off, that was a lovely description.

I love the way in which you explained that. And when as you were talking about it, I got this vision of being the intermediary, like the person, like if someone comes to you, it's like you're introducing them to themselves in a way. You know what I mean? To a part of them they haven't met for a while or maybe they've forgotten about or, you know, when you talk about it, you know, when you talk about it. about potential. It sounds to me like you are reintroducing someone to themselves in a way in which they haven't seen themselves in a long time. Yeah. And you know, sometimes people, when they hear potential, maybe they confuse it with ambition or material or. And that's not for me, that's not the case. I mean, so it's really nice that you emphasize that, that it is like,

having a look at yourself with all different aspects. And it could be, you know, it could be bliss. It could be love. It could be stars and rainbows. But it could also be pain or sadness or some dark parts that were sort of became a part of you during your childhood. And, you know, I think it's. such a beauty to look at all parts and to give them also space to to show up, even if it's really scary and difficult,

but to at least have a look at it, like, what is this? And during the years I'm supporting people during a psychedelic journey, I often think or get the feeling that it's most important that these parts are seen. and that we when we accept those parts, you know, instead of fighting it or like trying to suppress them, sort of accepting, hey, okay, that's also a part of me. Maybe I'm not too thrilled about it, but hey. And I think, yeah, so like you get to know yourself in a better way. or in an expanded way.

But I really believe that the beauty is in accepting and seeing those parts. And especially like some people are scared to face their fears. A lot of people. Of course. Yeah. And what I, what I do during a psychedelic journey is ask them to, when, especially sometimes I also work with MD. M.A. And psilocybin, because then first, it's easier to talk about certain stuff. You know,

you'll be able to connect with the emotions. So, for example, when it's easier to describe it, but, you know, that's also sometimes possible with psilocybin, is to really look from a distance and say, okay, so this is the fear. What do you see or what do you feel? What does it look like? Because instead of standing from a distance, you're facing it. So you get a better understanding because this part also wants to be seen. And the amazing thing is when you've seen it, then usually you think, what is this? You know, why am I so afraid of it? So we created something in our mind and made it so big or in our mind or maybe even in our subconsciousism.

but there it sits in, we're suppressing it. So when you see it, and then people are like, actually, it's not such a big deal because it's just parts of feeling. And so I really ask them to stick with it, you know, stand strong and look at it. And the mistake people sometimes make is that they lose themselves in it. And like Joe Dispenser said, you know, if you sit in a jar, you can't read the label. And I think it's exactly the same also with fears.

But, you know, like you said, it's like getting to know yourself in all different aspects. And I think knowing who you are and accepting who you are and, you know, maybe there's always work. There's always work to do. But I think by getting to know yourself better, I think life becomes easier. Yeah. How is that for you? What's your experience? Look, after your psychedelic journeys.

Yeah, I echo that. I think that for me on my personal journeys, like I've been able to go back and forgive myself. It's almost in a third. I love the term awareness because for me, and I think a lot of people, I don't know about it. I know about me. So it seems to me that you can go. back and revisit emotionally charged times in your life and you can visit them without shame. You can visit them without judgment.

And it's in that moment. You go, oh, I was just a kid. Man, I didn't know any better. Hey, fuck that guy. You know, or like things happen and you're like, wait a minute. You know what? You know why my parents didn't do anything? Because they were scared.

They didn't know what to do. It wasn't they were mad at me. They didn't know what to do. And in those moments, something freeze up in you. It's like that thing that you have held down for so long, like the monster in your closet, like, keep that thing shut. You realize it's just me. It's me making it.

I made it worse. Just like, just look at it. And there's something to be said when you're forced to look at something. And no judgment, just stare at it. And there's a weird sort of awareness that happens in these journeys and this, and these things that happen where you just sit with it and eventually it fades and with it fades the shame with it fades the guilt and there's room to grow now there's what it seems like what do you think yeah no absolutely like guilt is it can be a big thing and but yeah it's it's like sit with it and or look at it

and sort of accept, like you're saying also, you get a better understanding of why things happened or why you were saying about your parents. Yeah, what I find interesting is that you get like, you know, the psilocybin sort of makes your normal thinking patterns less active and that you get sort of a view from a different angle on topics in your life. And that gives like nice insights of, okay, this is why I'm doing this or becoming more aware of my own behavior or looking at like my family or, yeah, it gave me a lot of sort of a step back and look at myself and learn from that. And like what I hear you saying as well is to be okay with it, you know, to say, yeah, they did their best.

Or what I saw also is like that you were able to see some sort of like topic or element that has been part of the family. Yeah. So that you're able to sort of understand why things were happening this way or why. am I doing this? And while you face it, I have the feeling you're able to break it, you know, to break that sort of pattern or theme

or that is part of the family, that you're able to say, hey, okay, I see that this was happening. People were not able to, I mean, they just carried on and their father was doing it or her mother, whatever. Yeah.

And so to say, okay, so that is for me the key, I think, with psychedelic journeys is to become aware of what happened or what is there and to be okay with it. And that last part is not too easy, I should say. I mean, you know, one time it's like, okay, you know, I've seen it because that's also a question I often get. like, okay, so when I do this journey and I get all these insights, do I change afterwards? And sometimes people are kind of scared, you know, that their partner is sort of like, okay, what can I expect when somebody comes back home again? Yeah. Yeah.

And so it's not like when you do, and I'm sure you talked about this before, but what I've seen is that when you do a psychedelic, journey, you sort of like create a new connection, like a new pathway or a new way of thinking, but that little path was only walked once during that psychedelic journey. And so when you get out of the journey, I believe it's important to maintain it if you want it, if you really want it, to maintain it by staying close to yourself and to take good care of yourself, but also to think, okay, so I got this inside, I want to do things differently. let's make sure I do that. Yeah.

Yeah. It seems to me that for my personal use is I'll do like a big dose and then I'll follow it up with micro doses for like I'll do, I don't know, seven grams or something like that and then follow that up for the next three months with micro doses and then do like another big dose. But I think that that micro dose allows you to remain familiar with the environment, you know, and you can still have time to integrate those big changes that happened. But I want to dive back.

Sometimes you said that the spouse or the partner will be like, what's going to happen to them when they come back? Like what is it like to deal with a team that comes to you? Obviously, they're working on things and you've seen patterns, but what does it like to work with people on these substances, Marika? That's something I don't know about, but I think a lot of my listeners are curious to, understand a little bit about this sort of intricate, intimate relationship with which you're

holding the space for these people. Like, that's a pretty incredible position to be in. And with that comes a lot of responsibility, right? Yeah. Yeah, so, well, when I work with a group of people, and I must say, when they meet each other, it's not that they know each other. So because I tried that before with teams and I'm not so sure about that. So I think it's important that people feel really and I should also say I've also had some small groups of friends and they knew,

but they felt really comfortable with each other. So most important is that people feel okay with each other. and in a way sometimes it's helpful if somebody doesn't know the other person. Maybe just from meeting, but it's funny that most of the time all the work, you know, what kind of work people do? It's not important. So when people come here, they've seen each other online once and they know a little bit like where they're from and, you know, do they have a partner and things like that. But for the rest, it's not so important. And the funny thing is that if they come here for a weekend, like a three-day retreat, they get to know each other really, really well, but they have no clue what somebody's job is, for example, because that's not important. Yeah. And they're talking about stuff that is like the core, you know, it's like most important. It's like being and things like that. And so what I do with the group is when they come here, they get to know each other.

a little bit so they introduced themselves a bit better and then they and I always ask them like what do you want to get out of this what brought you here where what is what you want to look at because I think the intention of of a journey is really important and you know it's important yeah because I mean there is like tons of things you can look at but which what is most important at that time. And so what I do during a journey is, and I do this together with my partner, Eric, and most of the time we have another facilitator,

so we're with the three of us, and then we have like eight participants. And what we do is like it starts for me that I feel, there's this little book, it's called The Gentle Art. of blessing. And so what I do is I bless in my mind or I just want them to have a really insightful and valuable journey. So and out of the, and the reason why I mentioned this book is like this, this writer is talking about feeling, sending out some, some sort of positive energy.

Like, you know, I really wish you well. And it doesn't matter if you do that. with people on the street or whatsoever, but people feel that. And so this is what I also do with the journey. When we start the journey, I really wish them a well and valuable journey and the people that I work with do the same. So people feel that, I believe.

And so what we do is we create, and I talk to everyone prior to attending a retreat. So I have an idea like, what, what's happening or what's their fear or what do they need when they're really scared. And so during the journey, if somebody is going through a difficult time, we just sit next to them and, you know, make sure that we send out some sort of positive, calm energy because we're holding the space. And that's what we tell people also prior to the journey.

Like, we know that you can do this. most important thing is trust yourself stick to it even if you lose yourself a bit you can always sort of stare back to your intention and focus on that and and and we also explain them how you can sort of navigate and it's it's it's it's a bit funny like I'm telling them like if it's going too fast just ask the medicine or the the mushroom or the truffle please be just just just gentle or let's slow down or let's move a bit faster. And so within the group, everybody, of course, is a bit nervous, but they all feel safe. And I also check in with them, is there anything you need from the group?

So, for example, we also say we start as a group and we finish as a group. So if somebody needs to go outside, because we do the ceremony in the yurt, so if somebody needs step out or wants to be outside for a while, it's all fine and we will be with you. The only thing is we will ask you to go back at a certain point because the group will miss you. Because it's really like a group process and also for us, I mean facilitating for me, I speak for myself, but that I also sometimes if somebody is going through a process, I can sometimes feel it's sort of like mirrors something or sort of triggers something in me. So that's why I believe that it's really important for facilitators also to journey

and do psychedelic journeys themselves because we all have our stuff. And so what is really important for me is to recognize, okay, this is something for me. let's and I'm able to say let's park this and because today I'm here to support others and hold the space for them. And you know, the interesting thing is that most of the time people say prior like, oh, I'm scared to do this in a group because maybe somebody next to me is making lots of noise or is going to cry really loud. And the interesting thing is most of the time during the journey, it's all fine. And if somebody starts crying, then somebody else will sort of hold the space as well or it triggers something and the other person starts crying too. And that's all fine.

So in a group, people feel it's important that they feel safe. And we do this as a team. but we also make sure that they sort of connect a little bit with each other because they're sort of starting a group process. So they speak out their intention and at the end of the journey we also give them the opportunity to share a little bit about their journey, whatever they want. And sometimes people connect really well with each other afterwards and sometimes people feel like, wow, you know, a lot of things happened. I need some time for myself. So we also say,

don't feel obligated to be socially obliged to talk to each other. You know, take the space, take the freedom for yourself, and everybody's fine with that. So it's like a sort of, like I'm constantly with my hands like this, but it's like holding the space, but I feel a group, is doing the same. And I must say every group is different. Like sometimes there's a group, they're like, completely happy afterwards, and they're like almost friends for life and other groups. They're more like on their own and on an individual more focus. But yeah, and like two weeks ago, we had two couples and there were friends. And I can also imagine doing this with people you know, it also makes it really special. I can imagine that, or that's what I see,

that the friendship can even be much stronger because you met each other on a different level, especially afterwards. You know, you talk about other stuff and it's a bit like you were saying it as well. Like when you're in a psychedelic journey, everything else sort of, you know, sort of fall back and everything is fine. And that can be also with friends that you think, yeah, you know, we're good. We connect. It's so, it's beautiful to hear. And I'm so curious about the relationships.

And when you talk about groups, in my mind, you know, when I think of a group coming together and taking this particular journey and, you know, to a different state of awareness for a long period of time. I'm reminded of like the Elusinian mysteries where people, strangers are just coming together and they are embarking on this new way of seeing themselves and the relationship in the world. Are there time at your retreat or when you guys work, is it ever tailored?

Like this is a right of passage between father and son this group or it's a couple's group or it's a men's group or it's a woman's group. Do you ever break it down in that format or is it just basically whoever decides to come? It's different. Like most retreats we do are open for everyone. And so it's men, women, it doesn't matter. And then sometimes also we have people who ask, can we come as a group or can we come over or can we join or can we create something so then we

make something and i also organized on uh international women's day a ceremony with only women um and i really like that too because there's like a different energy and also to do that on that day and so for example we do it also with winter solstage so we we we journey in the in the night so usually we do during the day but on that day we we or nights we do it in the night and and we do with a group of of people who journeyed here before and we ask them like hey do you want to do a journey together we're going to do with summer solstitch as well so we really like to sort of connect it with nature but yeah so it's it's different it's It varies.

And yeah, I also see that we create something together. And I also wanted to say to you that, you know, we focus a bit on a group of people who are not so used to psychedelics. And so I have the feeling in the world there's a whole group of people who know this already for a long, long time, you know. and now they see that everybody becomes sort of mainstream and, you know, popular to microdose and to all do these things, which is, I think, a good thing. But so what we like, like you said in the introduction, I've experienced in the corporate world. I worked there for a long time. And I believe that there's a big, well, need or desire for that for that group of people to, explore themselves in a different way.

And so that's why we also focus in, because you have lots of organizations in the Netherlands who do this. You know, and there's like you can do it for probably 50 euros or for 5,000. And we're a bit in the middle. But we wanted to create this for people who want to get to know themselves better, but in a different way and who are not so familiar with spiritual practices. So for them it's like when they hear about this, then they think, oh, maybe I need to jump it through all sort of spiritual hoops and I'm, you know,

I'm not aware of that or I don't know any. I'm not into this at all, but I'm curious. So that's why we try to have a bit of, well, I'm not sure if it's different, but to, like, when I started doing this, I noticed looking on the internet, I saw lots of organizations, but nobody showed their face. So it was sort of like, okay, this is what we do, but you could not read, like, who's doing this? Who is this person? And so I wanted to make sure that it becomes more normal to work on yourself by doing this. And, you know, on LinkedIn, it was in the beginning, I sort of let likes and that sort of stuff.

I just let it completely go because it's still kind of, you know, still lots of people find it still like, oh, what is this? Or they're not aware of it. And I really would like to make sure that people see this. as another way of working on yourself. It's not a training in, I don't know, like management drives or whatever or all that sort of stuff, you know, like communication skills or. But it is in a way about personal leadership, but maybe that term is a little bit used for many things. So I like what you said, like getting to know yourself in all aspects and to sort of embrace all the elements in you.

But also to make better use of your qualities because people most of the time sort of tell themselves, oh, this is not for me or and why not if you really want it? And that's what I think is a beautiful thing of a psychedelic journey. Yeah. So anyway, I mean, it's a long answer on your question. It's all sort of side turns. Sorry. But yeah, so your question was like why people or people do sign up? I can't remember anymore.

But I hope it answered. Yeah, of course. I'm just curious about the different people that come there. And I couldn't agree more that corporate America or the corporate world itself is in dire need of taking a good look at itself and trying to understand how to move forward from here. Like for so long, it seems that we have lived in this world of, you know, growth at all costs and profit beyond that. And I think there's something to be said about psychedelics and identity and who you are. And especially if you're the face of a corporate world or something like that, a face in the corporate world, you have to, you should be responsible for the people that work under you on some level, right?

Like you should almost, you should almost have to really know yourself as a person. Like if you, and this is just me kind of just throwing this out here. But I think if you're going to call yourself a leader and you are a manager or a leader, then you should have to do some psychedelic training. You should have to know who you are before you start telling other people what to do. Because it's very easy to get lost in the power and the corruption there. But I think the psychedelic journey has the ability to pull you back from that ego trip and be like, wait a minute. I'm actually supposed to be helping these people, not bossing them around, telling them how, you know, giving them their identity.

but I don't know, it's just my kind of thinking. Yeah. Is that too much? What do you think? No, no, no. I agree. So, you know, I'm a big fan of making, like what you see nowadays in organizations is that people get a budget for personal development, let's say in the bigger companies.

And I would say make a psychedelic journey a part of that. And I can imagine, of course, people would say, oh, but what about all? all the risks and that sort of stuff. But you could also do like a lower dose and like, well, we also do a medium dose. And that could be really, really helpful. And then you're not like out of in a different dimension, but you're able to explore yourself in a much easier way. But yeah, I totally agree.

I find it, I mean, in a way, you know, There are in companies there's like yoga and meditation. I mean, so we're getting there. But still, I believe it's important to pay much more attention to it. And, you know, I see a psychedelic journey also as mental wellness. Yeah. Because we're constantly behind our screens with our phones. So your brain is constantly overwhelmed with all sorts of information.

We constantly need to see this, do this. And what happens with the psychedelic journey is that everything sort of stands still. You're able to clear your mind to connect again and you just see, feel and think much clearer. And yeah, so I think it's also for that really important for people and also in corporate, especially in corporate environments. Because, you know, in that other whole fields of people, they already know how to work with psychedelics. They know. And maybe, you know, in the future, is that people just do it themselves.

Or maybe there are different ways of maybe online that they can get a guide or whatsoever. I don't know. Maybe in the somewhere future. But, yeah, because also when people come here and they've been here a couple of times, and or usually it starts with a one-on-one so individual journey because they're sort of afraid to journey in a group and then they're sort of curious like oh maybe I do like to get to meet more people who are doing this and then they journey in a group but that's a what I wanted to say Anyway, so they get to know how it works and yeah, I sort of lost it, sorry.

No, it's all good. It brings up an interesting question that as someone like yourself that travels and speaks multiple languages, do you think that where you decide to journey, there's different aspects of the journey? Like, is it different to have a psychedelic journey in, say, California or? the United States versus in the Netherlands. Like, what would be some of the similarities and differences? Is there a cultural weight that sits on you and that there's different problems because of that?

Or what do you think? Well, I think, like, you know, I hear people talking about going to the jungle and do an Ioska week. or I think it's very personal for people to decide where to go. Because I also believe that they are attracted or they feel some sort of attraction like doing it there or learning from a shaman or finding it more interesting to do it in a certain way. Like a shamanic ceremony. I think in the and even in the Netherlands you have all different styles. So I don't believe that much. I mean, I don't really know actually to see if there if the culture,

culture plays a role as well. I don't know. But I do believe that most important is that you feel that it feels right. So that means like when you look at somebody's website, if it feels right, if it attracts you to journey, to travel to another country and to do a journey there. So I think most important is follow your feeling and because then it's right. And for like if it could influence, I think, you know, if it's a more shamanic way of doing it, that has a certain impact as well.

I said when I journeyed before we started our own business, we went to all different organizations to get some experience and to see how are they doing it and how does this feel for me. At one time I was at an organization and the group was pretty big. We're like, I don't know, 25 people. Also, the facility, for me, nature is a really important part to be able to connect to during a psychedelic journey or after or before you know i need nature and there was no nature it was like in a in a in a in some sort of suburb with houses around it and and there was just sort of like

a porch or not really you know anyway it was not there was no nature and so for me it didn't really feel right and and it was ayahuasca and i just took one cup and i was like this is it I cannot go any further because I just didn't feel completely safe. And it all went fine. And I mean, there was no problem at all. But for me, it was like, okay, this place, for me, it's important to be in nature. So these kind of things could help, like looking at an organization and see, this is for me. And if that's in the Netherlands or in California or in Costa Rica, I mean, that's,

It's personal, yeah. Yeah. I can also imagine if somebody has some sort of special connection, like with a country, yeah, then I would say go for it. But to me, I must say the jungle, and it doesn't really attract me that much. To be honest, I'm really much more like a comfortable journeyer.

And it's not that I need to go business class, but yeah, I think I like to have some nice comfort and soft materials and nature. And that's how we build our place also. So we picked everything that we really liked. And so I wanted to, if somebody walks into our facility, I want this person to feel like, okay, I feel safe here or I feel comfortable here. And we try this, or we do this in all different aspects. So, but, you know, if you're more adventurous and you think,

oh, I would love to learn from somebody who has done this in his whole family. And, you know, like his is a shaman and with all the rituals, because I think rituals are also all playing a part in the journey. And if somebody really likes that, I would say, follow that. feeling. That's most important, I think. Yeah. Where do you like to journey? What is important for you during a journey? I'm a big fan of the solo journey at my house when everybody's sleeping.

Like, for me, it's comfortable. I know I'm be safe and like I have all my comforts here. And I agree. I think that some people enjoy the ride and they want to be, you know, in the depths or the belly of the beast and everybody has their own like you said everybody has their own adventure everyone is called to a certain place and you should it's romantic it's beautiful and i find it so funny though because on some level like i don't want to be i don't want to have to like be tripping my balls off and go outside and make a right at the guy with the m16 and all these with skill bites on me like i don't want that like that's too much you know and on the other hand I definitely don't want to be in a house with a bunch of strangers.

I don't know and feel cooped up in there. You know, and the truth is, too, at a large enough dose, the environment doesn't really matter because all of that's falling away. You know, if you start taking some pretty big doses, you could be in the jungle in your bedroom. You know what I mean? You watch out with the tiger. It's coming, you know, and like that's how I like to go.

I like to take big doses. And just live different lifetimes. You know, there's something so incredible on a large dose that allows you to see the decisions that you didn't make and see how they turned out. You know, look in the mirror and look at different versions of yourself and be like, whoa, that was me a thousand years ago. Or, whoa, that's a different version of me. It doesn't even look like me. Next thing, you know, you've been standing in and looking in the mirror for like an hour. What are you doing?

It's funny. Yeah, I love those journeys. And I think there's so much to be said. There's so much learning that you can do if you're willing to face the uncertainty, the fear, and have a good sense of humor about it. Because it gets scary sometimes, right? Like, I know for me, I'm like, oh, I can't believe I did that. Man, I am such a dummy. Why did I do that?

You know, I heard a good quote one time. and I wish I could name the person that was talking about it, but it was a Western doctor, and he was talking to a gentleman from South America. And the guy from South America says, you know, the difference is that in the West, your drugs make you feel good and then you feel bad. Our drugs make us feel bad and then make us feel good afterwards.

Oh, I like that. Right? Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting what you say about the high dose. I mean, I like low doses. What's a low dose?

Well, low dose is for me, or maybe it's medium dose, like 10 grams of truffles. Okay. That sounds like a big dose. Like, what is truffles to say? Oh, let's say one gram of dried mushrooms. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or 1.2. Okay.

or 1.5, something like that. Yeah, I love it because, you know, it's not too long and I'm able to, you know, I don't need to sort of fly all the way out. I don't need that. And I think that I cannot find that much there. But when I stay a bit closer, I get the feeling like, okay. And I must say, I also really like two journeys in a row. So that's what we also do in our retreat. First, we do a lower dose.

So what I just mentioned, like the 1.5. And then the next day, we do truffles. So then we do, let's say, 30 gram of truffles. So let's say three grams of mushrooms. And, you know, what I like also personally is that with the first one, you get sort of the stuff out of the way, you know, the clutter, the daily. not important stuff. And then the next day, you know, that's cleared and you can go deeper.

But I must also say the other day, I did one higher dose of, let's say, three grams of mushrooms. And then the next day, I did a lower one. Right. And that was also really, really helpful. So for me, it doesn't really have to be that high, such a high dose. I mean, you could also do it lower. And I also liked what you said about continuing with a microdose because then it keeps you, it sort of helps to continue walking that new created path and implement it or make it a sort of a new pattern. Yeah.

It's helpful. But, yeah, I like those medium. We call it medium doses. I like that too. It's really, it's not so hard on your body. It's a bit shorter, but it also gives you really nice, yeah, understanding. Sort of like clears your mind. And, yeah, so, and, you know, it's so psilocybin is really my thing.

And I really want to use this to create. and I was I was looking at your profile on LinkedIn and you know reading about you. What I really like with psilocybin is to sort of create a wave of positive energy like you were saying. It's like a part and if we're doing this all together or, you know, everybody's working on themselves. And of course it doesn't have to be with psilocybin, but if people come to us, then we use psilocybin. to create a bigger wave of positive energy or to create good things in this world. That's really my goal. And to let people reconnect with who they want to be because that's it.

You know, we can create who we want to be. We don't have to sort of like just follow the stream of what's happening. and what's thrown at us that we say, oh, okay, I need to do something with this. Okay, I'll do that. We can make choices and to be so more aware of what we want. Yeah, so that's something I really want. That's my vision. I think you're acting it out.

I think that you are, there's that old saying that says, when you're ready, the teacher will show up. And it seems to me like you're the teacher that's showing up for lots. of people. You know, it must, what, sometimes it seems to me the way we move this ball forward and make the planet better is by all of us becoming the best versions of ourselves. And when someone comes to meet with you or to a retreat center somewhere and they do their own work and they go back into the community, it's almost like they're bringing water back and helping the people. Like, it kind of seems like that, right? Yeah, I like that. And, you know, I just,

just play a small role in this. I mean, I, every time when people come here, I feel, well, not honored because I don't want to use that word, but I feel humble and really thankful that they trust us, give us the trust to be there and to be a part of it. And I see them as playing a big role in this because they are doing work on themselves. And I, and when I'm in that position of journeying, then I do that for myself. And when you are journeying, you're doing, you're doing your part. Beautiful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, that makes me wonder. On some level, I, it seems like the headlines are so clogged up with like medicinal use for certain types of or, you know, sometimes there's a lot of headlines about inappropriate behavior and the people that is.

It always seems to me that the part, the people, like lots of people have lots of problems. And I, I almost think it's irresponsible for an individual to think they can help another person solve their problems. Only the individual can solve their problem. You know what I mean? And I think that's where a lot of the, as we run into problems, when the facilitator is like, I'm going to help you out. I'm going to fix it for you. Like, you know, you're not. You're not going to help them.

Like, you're there to watch the medicine work, it seems like. Yeah, that's it. Right? Absolutely. Totally agree. Absolutely. I read this book was called Swimming in the Sacred, beautiful book. I can't wait to check it out.

I don't. remember the author but beautiful book and she mentioned that um that's why i i don't really like the word healer because we're healing ourselves and and plants can help us with that and that's it and so i'm not playing any role i mean i'm playing the role of making sure that when somebody's coming over to do a journey that they feel safe. And I sort of, that's what I tell them. Like, if you see me know that I'm from planet Earth, and I'm making sure that you feel safe so that you can explore,

you can dive in, you can explore, and I hold the space for you so that you feel safe. That's all I do. And in a way, I think that's what I wanted to say earlier, is that, if people done this for a couple of times, at a certain point, I think they can do it themselves. And I would say, go, you know, if you create a nice space for yourself, maybe with a friend or somebody you trust, take a lower dose. You know, don't go too high and maybe try first, I don't know, one gram of mushroom or even lower. But, you know, you have experience. You know how to navigate. You know what it feels like when you, start work when it starts working so you're familiar with it then you can do it yourself but you know

you need to have some experience you need to be okay no like issues in like mental issues in the family or taking medication or no mixing with other drugs but you know if you follow those lines then you can do it yourself. And then you don't need anybody like me. And I think that's because I really like, I think I'm sometimes also a bit worried that, you know, we get also lots of good reviews,

good feedback from people. They're like, oh, you know, you help me in such a great way. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Yeah. And, and, but, you know, sometimes you get to feeling like, oh, you know, I did really great. because that's my ego. Yeah.

And I need to make sure that my ego knows where to stay. And of course, sometimes I, you know, let that play and run around like, oh, yeah. And then I'm like, okay, that's enough now. You know how it goes. And yeah, so, and that's fine. But it's people are doing it themselves. Yeah. And I don't want to take any other position than.

And that's all I always like to sit on the ground when people are doing a journey with the mattress on the floor. Yeah. Sit on the ground. And I don't want to step up or whatsoever. That's not up to me because it's them. Everybody is able to do it themselves. Much more powerful. Way more powerful.

That's, I think that speaks volumes of who you are as a person, that last piece that you said right there. It's so important that people understand that. And I love the metaphor of exploring the environment, right? Like, he'd just start off a little bit, figure this thing out a little bit. And then you figure out what's right for you. The more you know it, the more familiar you become with the environment. Maybe you want to go off on the right. We want to go up on the left.

But, you know, eventually you'll figure it out. But in the beginning, you need someone to kind of show you the ropes. But after that, everybody's got the same tools. You know, everybody's got the same, the same. Well, maybe not the same, but it's for the individual to explore. Yeah. It's beautiful, I think. Yeah.

And, you know, if you trust yourself, I think it always comes back to yourself. Yeah. Stand firmly. Stay with that trust. And lots of things are possible. Yeah. It's such a solo experience. You know, like you are.

getting to meet maybe your higher self or reintroduce to yourself on some level. And when you come out of it, isn't it interesting? The better relationship you have with yourself, the better relationships you can have with other people. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Well, and I think in general, the better relationship you have with yourself, and I wouldn't

say like ego area. but more in accepting all parts of yourself. Yeah, and maybe it's ideal. But sometimes I get the feeling like, okay, maybe, you know, when we all accept ourselves, then we die. I don't know. But I think, you know, that's what I also see with monks. When I hear them talk, I'm like,

there's so much peaceful. or I don't know the right word, or calmness or, and I love that. And then I think maybe that's our goal. I don't know if that's our goal. But yeah, I also have it when I feel like that, like, for example, if I just come out of a psychedelic journey and I feel really like at peace with myself, then everything is sort of okay. and, you know, falls in place. And then I know also what really is important to me. I think that's also something.

Yeah, what really matters to me. That's, yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Do you think we're at a sort of a precipice? Like, it seems to me that it's really taken off the idea of microdosing and psychedelics and in theogens. Maybe it's the circle that we run in. And maybe because we really are familiar with it and we enjoy it

and we see the positivity in our daily lives. But do you think that it's beginning to expand at a rate that is, I can't think of the right word, but do you think that this wave of psychedelics is expanding because our society is in dire need of it? Yes, I believe so, yes. Well, you know, I think we're on the right way to get that wave going and to expand it. And that's what I also see with the people who come here because all the people who know this already, they've figured that out already.

But the other ones, and I wouldn't say, I want to avoid to say this is good and this is bad. Yeah, right. Because that I find also a scary. noticed with myself as well that I'm like oh I've changed and then I'm looking at others and you know sort of like being judgmental and and and that's not what I believe because one person goes faster than the other one you know I also see people that I think wow you know you're such an inspiration and sharing this with the world I find this with you as well you're inspirational with all your energy, but also with what you want to show to other people and what they can learn from you and connect them with other people.

But there are also people who are struggling with this, who are on a slower pace and because of what happened in their family line. And that's what I really like about the people who come here because it's so new to them. them, not all of them, but some of them, it's so new to them that you're sort of like opening a little door. Yeah. I was like, hey, this is possible as well. Hey, and I'm sort of connecting with my emotions again. Wow. You know, this is, that feels really, really good.

Yeah. So do everybody, I'm not sure if everybody should. be on psychedelics to create that, you know, that goal or to move into that direction. Because for some people, it really attracts to do psychedelics. And when they do it for the first time, they're like, yes. And I had the same. When I did this for the first time, I thought, yes, this is for me. But there are also people who say, you know, I'm completely fine with meditation.

or I'm completely fine with breathwork or walking. I don't know, all sorts of things. Everybody picks their own. I believe that becoming aware of what else is there because we got so far away with all the material stuff and all the things we think, you know, and also, I mean, with all social media, It's a great thing because that's how we met.

And that's really nice. And we're able to learn from each other and to connect with each other. But it can also be used for other stuff like distracting or distraction. So what the goal is, I hope we're just a movement, movement in like taking better care of nature, to be more aware. to connect, to face our maybe traumas in the family, to deal with that and to heal ourselves. That one. That's an important one too. Yeah, so I believe, and you know, by talking about it gives me a good feeling.

Like, yeah, I really believe that this is our goal. This is something we need to do. How do you see that? I love it. It reminds me, you know, I went ice skating with my daughter last week. And I'm not that great of an ice skater. I can stand up and I kind of shuffle across the ice a little bit. And like, I'm getting better.

And I remember I was standing by the side. And I was watching my daughter, she's way better than me and her friend are skating. They're going backwards. And I just looked around the ice. And there was old people, young people, heavy people, skinny people. all colors and like some people were really fast and some people were really slow. I started laughing.

I'm like, dude, this is our world. Some people are really young and talented. Some people are like me and old and keep falling down. Like it's just such a good metaphor. I just look at the eyes. I'm like, this is all of us just trying to do our best job. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it.

The secret's everywhere. You can see it everywhere in life if you just look. You know, it's like, look, there it is. There's, there we are. We're just doing it. And do you believe, I love what you say about, yeah, we're just doing it. We're just doing it. Yeah, we're doing our best.

And do you believe that we have some sort of, I don't know, let's call it goal or life lesson or in our lives? I think so, yeah. I think we are, I think we're becoming something collectively. I think we've just moved through this incredible phase of consumption, like a caterpillar. We're moving into something now. And, you know, if you look at the demographics alone, like there's just such this enormous group of baby boomers that came before us. And as they're moving on to whatever comes next, you can see the next generation breaking through the detritus of old ideas, flexing their wing, trying to figure, like, look at this thing. What is this universal basic income thing?

You know? And like just testing these ideas of what is possible. And you can still hear and on some level you can see the unrealized dreams of those that are dying, just grasping. We've got one more war in us, guys. Come on. Like, dude, that's a horrible idea. But you can see us moving in that direction. And I think in Theogen specifically, they reveal to us a wisdom.

that is for all of us. And it's there. And it's just revealed to you. If you think about the insights that you have had or perhaps some of the people that have come to you or people you've spoken to, there's these flashes of insight that are revealed to you. And you realize there are these universal truths like,

oh, yeah. You know what? When I take part of this plant, like it really helps me understand that I'm part of the whole. It's so weird that I could eat this vegetable. And then I feel like it's talking to me, telling me how to be a better person in the environment I'm in. It's almost like I'm taking part of this.

You know, it's just this thing we're moving into. And it's ineffable. Like another thing is language, right? Like when you start taking these doses, whether it's one gram or a half a gram or high grams, you bump up against the ineffable. You can't explain it. There's no linguistic pathway, but you can see it, you can feel it. You can kind of act it out in a weird sort of way.

That's the gravity that's pulling us to. towards it. We can't quite say it yet. We don't have a linguistic pathway, but we're definitely moving in that direction. And that's us as a whole. I do. I think we are, we, each individual is part of the whole. And though we live

our lives sometimes as if we are individuals, we're not. We're just we're all pulling our weight and pulling this thing, whatever it is into the next phase. Love it, love it, love it. I can listen to this for hours. Love it.

Yeah, you know, and I remember also once during a psychedelic journey that I felt like, you know, I was walking around outside and I was like, we're just energy. And we're just all part of it, you know, and nature is sort of, yeah, is surrounding us and giving us so much. but it's also sometimes thinking, oh my God, you know, when are they going to get it? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, everybody in his own pace, of course. But, yeah, I totally, it totally resonates with me what you were saying. And the way you say it is like, so you, I believe. It's so beautiful with so much energy.

But yeah, absolutely. I believe that too, that we're moving into it. direction. And I also believe in a way it's all, you know, especially when we look at ourselves, that everything is all there already. The only thing is that we put so many layers on it, you know, by growing up, but also by people around us who are telling us that we should do it this way or this way or we should have this or we should look like this or we should be like. this, that that's all covering up what is already there. You know, we all have all these beautiful qualities and all this love and

beautiful energy in us. And I believe, so I'm wondering if what do you think of that, but is that when we sort of get these layers off, it will really help us to move into that direction, you know, then we're going. Yeah. And maybe it sounds a bit abstract, but yeah, I truly believe that when you get to the core, when you get to your true being or your true self, then that's it. And of course, maybe, you know, when people think, okay, so can I, do I have to be always my true self? Not sure if it's possible.

I hope it is. I hope it is. But maybe that's sort of wishful thinking. I don't know. It could be that we're always, you know, because we built this ego and that it always be there. Maybe by taking these layers off that our ego becomes smaller. Yeah, I think that that could be something.

Our ego becomes smaller and then our true self can be more present and become bigger. Maybe it's not so much in bigger and smaller, but well, for the ego, yes. Really nice talking to you, George. I love this. Yeah. We got a comment here that says, oh, right. This one. Oh, it moved up.

That's what happened here. It says, will the force overcome those folks trying to shape and alter the force. Yes. And who are those folks? What do you think? It's always them and they, right? And I think that them and they are us. They're just people that are clinging on to that which they need to live.

I think, I, yeah, it's hard to, to, to, I'm a big fan. of panning back and listening to all the stories about who could be controlling things and why they're controlling them. I'm like, it's really fun. And I enjoy that. But at the end of the day, all you can really control is yourself. And a good way that I've found to do this, too, is, and I think psychedelics help is that everybody you see is just a different version of you.

And when someone makes you really mad, you should try to find out why they make you mad, because that's probably something you do. If you see everybody is a mirror, right, like in the whole young. in psychology of it. It goes like a mirror for you. What do you think? Yeah, I think so too. And, you know, I get the feeling that when there's a trigger that there's a lesson or, you know, there's sort of something is happening like, oh, you need to learn something here.

Yeah. But also what you said about with the question, I also believe that. that the world I am in is much more on focusing on individual growth. And I think certain parts in the world are so much more focused on the collective part. But I also believe certain parts, so let's say they, I think they're also dealing with their traumas. and you know power is is a is a big thing in certain with certain people and maybe they went through a lot of issues that their ego became so big that they're so much focused on okay this is right so my my hope and my ideal ideal is that those people

heal themselves as well at a certain point. And maybe it's visual thinking, but maybe like certain people are able to get away out of that situation or out of a situation that is toxic or not good for them. And they are able to move to a more individual part. But on the other, and maybe it's just an individual part to be able to heal themselves and then move into that force. Yeah, I find, I think it's a very interesting question or topic, but also difficult to give a straightforward answer to, I believe. But yeah, and then moving on to the triggers, absolutely. I think, and that's constantly, I think, in daily life, as soon as something is triggering you, then there is something to learn from. What I usually do because I have that too, of course.

What I do is try to step back a bit. And sometimes, you know, like I was saying, if you sit in the jar, you can't read the label. So I try to step back and think, okay, so what is annoying me right now? Or what does it say about me? Is it, you know, that I want that too? Or is it, do I feel not seen? or what part in me is trying to get some attention. I usually, but sometimes things happen fast

and then I'm already into the reaction. But what I try to do is to become more aware of like, okay, let's step back. What's happening here? Yeah. Yeah. I think it brings up the idea of language. And then NC Native says,

He says there are humans trying to shape how other humans think and do things. Are those controlling humans still part of the force moving towards a certain point? Or would you say they are fighting that moment? Here's what I would say. I would say that language, the world is made of language. And when you listen to the language that's put out in society, in culture, Think of the four first letters of the word culture. It's a cult.

Like we are living in this world that's an illusion. It's made of language. And there are tons of people desperately trying to control the narrative. Because when you control the narrative, you can't control the world with which people live in. But each individual is what we're talking about earlier. And I think psilocybin and theogens and psychedelics can do this is they allow you to break free of the linguistic programming that has been given to you for the 50s. years you went to school. Like that's the default mode network.

When we look at psychedelics, we see the default mode network is turned off in the brain. All this stuff. And see all of these marketing, propaganda, all of this stuff you see. This is the default mode network at work. Hey, stay in this lane, buy this car, buy this house, get this job. You're nothing unless you have this. Like, that's the default mode network. And it's so interesting that we can see it in our lives.

And we can also see it in neural feedback when people take psilocybin or they take these different psychedelics. They see the default mode network shut off. And that allows you to make these new connections about like, you know what? I kind of think I am enough just being who I am. I kind of think that maybe I should quit my job and love my wife and kid more. I kind of think that maybe I don't really don't need to have all of this excess consumption. And by the way, how can a business talk about being environmentally friendly? They have a business model built on excess consumption.

That's kind of weird. You know? So NC, my idea is that it's all linguistics. And there are people, and there always have been. There will continue to be people that try to control your story. But don't let them. You control your story. And psychedelics can be a profound game changer in there.

And I think a lot of that problem people have is because they're listening to everyone else's story, right? Stop living other people's lives and stories and just take one big. baby step in yours and that step will fall away. It'll still be there. I mean, you can't get rid of it, but it'll fall away and be less meaning. Well said, George. Yeah, absolutely. Well, anything else did you want to cover? I know I kind of went up on some tangents there, but yeah, got that going for us. Yeah, good, I think. Where can people find you? What do you have? coming up and what are you excited about um so people can find me in the netherlands um and our website is

the matter dot nl and um we're also on uh instagram and um linkton i so people can find me there um so my last name is van der speck difficult to pronounce maybe for people but so there they can find me. What am I excited about is the, well, you know, it's summer is starting soon. And, and so I'm really excited about hosting a few retreats in the coming period. So we have one coming up next weekend. One at the end of July. I'm also organizing a cannabis retreat in August for women. And so that will be really nice. And I'm, you know, I'm excited about more and more people are opening up into working on themselves with psilocybin and connecting with their true self again because, you know, there's so much happening.

There's so much going on that is distracting us for what is really important. So that's what I'm excited about. And, you know, like I said, and I love it. doing this, you know, being able to be a part of it, it's like magical, magical to see taking people's steps to move on or to do what's really important for them or let go of certain patterns. And for me, that's like, I'm so not honored, but humble and really happy that I'm able to do this. work. Yeah. And to introduce it to people and, and, you know, to spread also the word. I mean,

that's it for me, you know, spread the word because this is like creating possibilities. I think it's, yeah, it's beautiful. I think you're good at it. And I think you have a very unique way of understanding patterns. And just in our conversation today, I'm moved by your word choice about being humble and staying away from being honored. Like, that's such a cool way to do it. I appreciate you for doing that. That's a, I think it speaks volumes of your intentions. So thank you for that.

Well, thank you. Thank you for mentioning that. And so, ladies and gentlemen, hang on briefly afterwards. I just want to talk to you briefly afterwards, but to everybody who hung out with us today, Griggs, NC, Gregory, thank you so much everybody for hanging out with us,

spending some time. Go down to the show notes. Check out. out Marika, check out what she's got going on over there. Reach out to her. She's a splendid individual and she's got a ton of knowledge and I'm sure she'd like to talk to you. So ladies and gentlemen, that's all we got for today. I hope you have a beautiful day. Hello. Thank you.