TrueLife - Meg Stafford - Who Will Accompany You?

Episode Date: December 24, 2022

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://megstafford.com/Meg Stafford has over 35 years experience as a clinical social worker, honing observations about people, and working in a variety of settings as large as Beth Israel, a Harvard Teaching Hospital, and as intimate as private practice.As a result of her training in Executive Coaching and Organizational Consulting, she delivered talks on such topics as Leading From Within, and Developing Emotional Intelligence. She has also been a columnist for several newspapers over the span of the last nearly thirty years. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I got a really special show for you about a really special book with a special woman. A Mrs. Meg Stafford, she's got 35 years experience of the clinical, worker. She has trained extensively as an executive and an organizational coach. She delivered talks on subjects such as leading from within developing emotional intelligence. She has a firm grasp

of the English language. The book is really fun to read because of that. She's been a columnist at several newspapers for the last 30 years. She has worked and traveled all over this world. Here to talk with us today about her newest book called Who Will Accompany You? My mother-daughter journeys far from home. Meg Stafford, it is an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. How are you today? Did I leave anything out there? So the sub-title is,

it's Who Will Accompany You? My mother-daughter journeys far from home and close to the heart. And close to the heart. Just that one line. And this is what it looks like. There it is, ladies and gentlemen. For those of you watching live. Right.

I would recommend you guys pick it up. Yeah, it's a great book, Megan. I really enjoyed it. It is, it's really deep on a lot of different levels. I almost found it fractal in nature because I could see how you began with your mother's story. And then you talked a little bit about your daughter's education and then the way you began to travel and then the way they traveled. And then you pan back out at the end. And you really built up a beautiful foundation.

At what point in time did you decide that you were, at what point in time did you decide that you, were going to write this book? It started out initially after the trip to Nepal and Bhutan with Kate, I thought about, because that trip we were on for the same amount of time, and there were aspects of it that were similar in that, well, she was sitting and meditating at a monastery in Kathmandu at age 17, and I was trekking to the Annapurna Base Camp. So in some ways, very different, but in some ways similar, it was very meditative. Certainly our trek was very meditative.

It was just the two of us, my friend and I, and our guide and Porter, the porter was always miles ahead because he was spring-loaded. And so there was a lot of walking and silence, and so different from sitting, but very internal. And also because it was so early in the season, there weren't a lot of people around. So after, at the end of that trip, I thought, oh, wouldn't it be interesting to see each of our perspectives back, back and forth. So it started out as sitting on top of the world. And then I realized that it wasn't enough and that it needed to include my older daughter and her time in Columbia in my visit with her. It's such a beautiful.

story, all of them. And I really, I really like the way in which you were able to incorporate the stories of your daughters, almost like in real time. Like you would talk a little bit about what you were going through. And then you, for the story of your youngest daughter, Kate, who is clearly a philosopher and an incredibly intelligent young woman at such a young age, you know, you get to see some excerpts from her journal and what she was thinking. And these incredibly deep thoughts from a 17-year-old woman is, because it kind of blew my mind a little bit right there. But what's even more interesting is the authority that you gave to your children and the ability and the freedom to let them travel at such a young age for those that may not know who are probably on the way to the store to buy the book right now. Let me just tell everybody that I think that your youngest daughter was in high school when she decided to take this adventure on.

Is that accurate? Yes. Yes. So as part of her senior project in high school, they do like a year-long project. and they actually encourage people to go off campus for a limited amount of time. And she could have gone to Western Mass. Her question that she was studying is, what is happiness? Teeny little question.

And she could have studied meditation and Buddhism at a place in Western Mass, but she decided that she really wanted to go to Nepal and study there. Or actually, it started out as going to. Bhutan because they have the happiness quotient that they the gross national happiness like who knew but yeah it's I just recently saw the friend who we were talking to who said well why didn't you just say no never occurred to me if she was willing to go out there I wanted to make it happen so yeah that that's a beautiful thing and you know I wanted to touch a little bit on the your daughters went to a school that was based on the ideas of Ted Cisor.

Is that accurate? Ted Cisor. Can you tell us a little bit about Ted Cisor? I've never heard of him before. So he was at a Brown University. He and Nancy Cisor started the school. And it's what's called a charter essential school, which means that they work under a number of essential tenants with

student is in the center, teacher as coach, less is more. They have limited number of, limited number of subjects. They only teach Spanish there so that they can include different parts of the school in different activities. Its classes are seventh and eighth grade, their school starts and seventh and goes through 12. Seventh and eighth grade is a division, ninth and tenth is in a division and 11th and 12. And there is a set of tasks that they need to accomplish in order to move from one division to the next. And they do it with essentially giving a talk.

So each person has a, it's called a gateway, where they present their learning. And if they, like if you're a math wizard and you can do a two-year curriculum, in a year or a year and a half, you can move to the next division early or the other way. If math is challenging for you and you need an extra term, then you can do that also. So there's a lot of, it's very individualized and very flexible in that way. And the grades are not traditional.

So rather than ABCD, it's just beginning approaches, meets and exceeds. and they have to revise their work in order to have a certain number of meets projects, project that meet expectations in order to move to the next division, which means that, and it took me a whole six years to figure out the whole arc because I was not familiar with it myself, but it means that they're expecting everyone to do excellent work for them, and all the students get in the habit of doing really, good work in order to move to the next division. So it sets up a really great work ethic and

confidence in themselves and part of it involves speaking. So they all get comfortable with presenting, which is so helpful to them. Yeah, I was so curious about it because I had read that blurb in the book and then I was like, wow, you know, your family seems, you seem like an awesome family. I got to say, like I made me a little jealous. I'm like, oh my gosh, what a cool family. They're doing so much cool stuff together and the relationship you had. And, you know, some of the, some of the stories in the book made me laugh completely out loud. Like, it was really well done from, from some of the symbols you saw in Bhutan to, you know, the mother-daughter relationship. And like, as a father, I really admire the mother-daughter relationship. And I think

you did a really great job at getting the reader to empathize and, walk the streets and get to be part of your life. Like you got to see the girls grow up and you got to see how you felt about it. And some of the insecurities and some of the things you were proud of and some of the things you're worried of. And you just did a really good job at commanding the language and putting it out there. Was there a system you used in writing this book? Did you put notes up first or do you have like a certain type of method you do? Or how do you write?

So some of this, it depends. In this instance, I was used. using a lot of material that had already been written. So in Kate's instance, I was using material from her journal, some from my journal, and then Gail, some from the emails that she wrote home, and then she wrote a blog. Kate's and mine were easier to balance because we were there the same amount of time. Gail was in Columbia for a year and a half, and I had the time leading up to it, but was only there for a week and she wrote, excuse me, copiously, which was great, but it meant really,

it felt like a mosaic that I was putting together. And I like thank my editor, bowed down to my editor who really helped me put it together. And really, she's the one who suggested that I write the last, the last segment home. She said, people are going to want to know. What about your husband? How did this impact your marriage? How did you get started? started traveling and it just like flowed right out. So when I'm writing a column, it often is already forming in my head and I'll be on a bike ride or taking a walk and it's forming and I just have to go home and get it out. But this book I had to put together with pieces and the help of an editor so that it was

balanced and flowed well. I like, you know, as I mentioned this before, but I really admired the way and we got to see your relationship with the daughters in different parts of the world. And I'm curious, you know, Kate seems like a philosopher to me. And she's asking this question of why. And then we have, you have Gail who just seems to be such a fun person to be around with her puns and these, this linguistic maneuvers that she's doing all the time. I'm wondering, is that something that you and your husband, kind of began to nurture at a young age or is is how did that work? Well, I am also a punster and and ironically, my first book, topic of cancer, writing the waves of the big sea has way more puns in it. In fact, Yale was translating it into Spanish and it was challenging both because the kind of was challenging. It was at a tough time in our lives when I was going through breast cancer. Gail was a senior in high school and Kate was in seventh grade. It was the one year they

overlapped in school at Parker. But I just had this, like so many quirky things would come up. But she found it really hard to translate because all those idioms were not easy. She said this one would be way easier. So that's one of the things that we share is the love of language and wordplay. So that's That's always been fun. And I share a love of philosophy with Kate. And just with both of them, our interest in the other cultures and other people and being abroad. They've both spent a significant amount of time in other countries, living in other countries. Yeah.

I thought it was also interesting how, you know, being in the West and being submerged in this culture, that one of the daughters chose the east and one of them chose like the south. But there seems to be a relationship between, you know, the eastern ideologies and some of the countries in South America. Like they share a more, maybe like a holistic view of the world or a holistic view of the self and community and culture. And then you get up here to North America and Europe

and we're kind of separated from ourselves a little bit. Did you find that interesting that both of your daughters gravitated towards those areas? I did. And particularly interesting because I had spent time in Europe. I spent a semester in France and I had spent eight months in England and I lived on the West Coast in San Francisco for a year. But I had not been farther east than Hungary. And I hadn't been to South America at all. So it was really intriguing to me. I think the world is smaller for, kids today for people growing up, which is great. And it's even within places, flights are much easier to book. It's easier to stay in touch. And when I was away, those little aerograms you have light tiny on and fold them up and send them out. And it would be three weeks in between communication. Whereas now they can get information so much more quickly and they can be in touch. So I think it makes it easier to think about going further. Not that it's, not that it's simple because far is

far. But I think that that helps to shrink the world and make it feel accessible. In your book you had mentioned that, you know, your, you would be, I think you said at 13 or 14 was the first time that your parents had traveled and that you got to travel with them maybe. And then, you know, you get. Well, when I was 13, I'm sorry. No, please. When I was 13, they went to Europe for the first time. Yes, we were left behind on that one. And my poor grandparents, I don't know,

was sort of at the end of the year, but they were stuck with us. And then I went off to camp, as I loved to do all for the summers. But, you know, thinking about it, it was not that much later. if I was 13 then, when I was 14 turning 15, I went to France for the summer with friends of the family who were chaperoning a college trip there. So that was my introduction, and I was off and running after that. I couldn't get over it and just loved it. And even though I was taking Spanish in high

school, I knew that I wanted to go back to France when I was in college and did. And that's, you know, on that topic of when you went back to France, in your book you had mentioned that you had almost begun to start dreaming in French. And I once heard that that's when you know when you're fluent is when you can dream in another language. Is that accurate? I hope so. Did you ever dream in French? Did you continue to dream in French? I heard the end of my time there because I didn't start really studying it until college.

I had the six weeks in that summer when I turned 15. and then went back and took Spanish. But I do think that if you're dreaming in it, it's really infiltrated your subconscious and your unconscious. And so it's locked in in a different way. And right towards the end of my time there, it was much more fluid. And I love it and I'm sad that if I spent a significant amount of time,

it would come right back. But it's been a long time. So it doesn't all stay. It's like just the little things, the grammar and stuff. But it would come back. Yeah, absolutely. It kind of like your Spanish came back when you went to visit your daughter in Colombia. And the lady was making you a meal and you're all gracious.

Oh, graseous, gracias. It's interesting how that can come back like that. It's a little bit in my stuttering Spanish. Like I felt like I had a seven-year-old vocabulary. But there are lots of ways to convey. feeling and i had gale there to translate when i fell short have you found in your travels that when you go out of your way to attempt to speak the native language people are kinder and a little bit more empathetic with you i think people appreciate it people appreciate the attempts and

classic they talk about the the parisians as being less uh less willing to do that and maybe but i still think that in general, people really appreciate when you're making attempts to speak in their language. When I was with the chorus in Hungary when I was in college, and we learned, we had very, we learned how to sing the national anthem, and we learned just a few words. And I still know how to say, no liver, because they heard a lot of liver, and I didn't want to eat it. Now I'm vegetarian, so I probably wouldn't eat it. But it's like, so key phrases, stay with you. I think that people appreciate, even if it is halting.

You know, as like, you talk a lot about the different places you got to travel and traveling when you were younger and your daughter's getting to go and visit their grandmother in Mexico. And how do you think that traveling affects the decision making of children when they begin traveling at a young age? Do you think it has a long lasting effect? Did it have it on you? Did it have it on your kids? how do you think it changes the way they see the world? It's an interesting question.

I do think that it helps make the world seem more accessible. And when you're in other places, even if you can't speak the language, you still can get a sense of the ways in which we're alike, the ways in which we're different. that's really interesting and compelling and it's fascinating to see different clothing, different food, different customs, different ways that people live in the world. But there's there still is that tie underneath. Like when I was in Columbia that I know that that woman who had a daughter could understand what it was like for me to have a daughter being far away and hard to reach.

Like, it's so human. Like, there's so much universality and so much beauty. It sets up a lifelong desire to see more of it because it's so interesting. Yeah. I was thinking about that question and the title, Who Will Accompany You know, I began myself, I began thinking like maybe sometimes who accompanies me is fear. Maybe someone who accompanies me is trust, you know, And have you thought about the book from that angle?

Because your daughter chose to go to some pretty risky places. And as a mother, I'm sure that as a father or a husband, you know, there's definitely some, hmm, wait a minute here. So what do you think about the topic of accompanying fear, accompanying trust and love as an accompanying companion? Thank you. And first I want to nod to Gail because the title really came from the title of one of her blog posts toward the end when she was reflecting back because she was there as an accompanier witness

for the people in war-torn Colombia. So she was doing all this accompanying and she makes a point of appreciating that all of us reading her emails were also accompanying her while she was doing that. But I was able to show this to my mother the September before the book came out. And she was 93 and she died a month later.

But she was looking at it. She was really, the book is dedicated to her, and I was able to show her the cover, and she was really looking at it and connecting with. And she said, oh, do you mean who will accompany you in death? It's like, oh, no, that means. Not what I was referring to, but it really does address who do you want to be in your life? Who, who is with you or what is with you?

Is it fear? Is it hope? Is it love? What are we inviting into our lives and what are we allowing in? And my hope is that people will feel comfortable allowing in whatever is to come and making choices about who they want to be with and where they want to go. Yeah, that, like, that brings us back to the beginning of the book where, you know, you had laid out some foundations of what you were trying to accomplish for parents, for children,

and for, you laid out these different sections. And I really think that set the tone for the rest of the picture. And by picture, I mean, the book, you know, like, I really think you were able to step, or at least I was able to step back and see it into so many different layers. Like was that something that you had planned for people to do? Like I never thought about this idea from your mother thinking like, oh yeah, is this who you went to a company you in death? But it's so weird how, you know, you mean, just you, me and your mother right now,

I have three completely different interpretations of what it can mean. Did you mean to do that and lay it in a way where people could see it from all these different vistas and foothills? The title or the book itself? The book itself. I would say that some. of it is intentional and some of it happened just by virtue of writing it. So in fact, again, I want to give credit to my editor who really pulled some of these themes out. And she said that they were implicit, but she really wanted them to be much more explicit and clear.

and to tee up that some of it is about very clearly about my relationship with my daughters and about what travel means to each of us and to us together. So some of it was intentional, but like had no idea that you would creatively come up with other things around the title or that my mom would. But that's part of what I like about it, that it is open enough for people to bring what is in them to it. But then the subtitle really makes it clear what my personal intention is. So the mother-daughter journeys far from home and close to the heart took us a number of iterations

to come up with just the right thing that captures it. I think you did. I think you captured it beautiful. You know, towards the end of the book, you talk about your family a little bit and how your parents were Russian immigrants and then it makes me, then I skip back to the front of the book and I'm sorry, did grandparents were? My grandparents, yeah.

Your grandparents were. Yes, my parents were both born here. Okay. And it just makes me, you know, you talk about getting itchy feet and wanting to travel and the travel bug. Do you think on some level those of us who find the, not only desire, but almost the need to be moving forward to to expand our,

our lives and our learning. Do you think that there's some genetic code in there that like, you know, people that have to leave, like so many, so many people you know tend to live in the same place forever. And then there's like this other contingency group that are like, I got to get out of this place. I can't be. I got to move over here. I got to see stuff. You think that's like, is it possible that could be genetic? I think some of it, some of it could be. Because like from very early on for me, I was curious about where my friends live. I wanted to see what do their houses look like? What do they have there?

What are their parents like? So from early that was sewn. It's not that I wanted to get out, that it was uncomfortable to be in my house so much as I just found it interesting to see other people's houses. But also I find that there are people for whom, like where they're born and grow up, that is home

and for nothing can compete with it. And I definitely have a warm spot for the, the Mid-Hudson Valley where I grew up. But also there are people, I know people who, several, a few people who have moved to either London or Italy and then just live there for the rest of their lives. So it's someplace else felt like home. And I don't think that you can predict that, because you would think it's like wherever you grow up, that's going to be home. And there is some, but there's also something that, you know, someone is real. That's the place where they felt at home or Italy or wherever it is.

So I do think that it is, it's the old nature nurture combo. Just dressed it in another way. You know, as I was reading the stories of, you know, part one and part two, one is, one is with your younger daughter Kate and the other one is with your older daughter, Gail. You must have been so proud. Like, you know, I've written, I wrote down some ideas. one of the things that I really admired about Kate was her ability to talk about contentment versus happiness.

And she just had some really deep thoughts. And I was like, I cannot believe this girl's 17 right here. You know, you must have been so proud of her. I wanted to talk about her for a minute. And what was it like traveling to a place? Had you been to Bhutan or had you been to that area prior to? What was it like going to a brand new place with your daughter for the first time? Oh, so that's like the biggest treat.

to go to a brand new place with them. It's so that we're both experiencing the newness at the same time. That's an incredible treat. And there are ways in which she's wise beyond her years, and then there are ways in which she's very much 17. It's a fun, at that time, it's a fun balance. She cringed a little because she's 28 now, but when I was putting the book together, she's looking back on it.

She was an adult. It's like, oh, oh, I know. It's in high school. But it definitely set the stage for her where she went from there because she loved being there, but really loved most of all meeting people from all over the world, from India, Australia, Germany. I can't remember all the places that people were in her course. But it was really great to see her following her experience so soon,

following right after, and to sort of absorb what was, what she found interesting, what she found challenging, like right there in real time. And same. Yeah. She had a great line. Like she had a lot of fun stuff to say. And one of the most memorable lines for me where I had to laugh for a little bit is she was,

she was talking with some of the monks and, you know, they were talking about being reincarnated and she was challenging him a little bit. And then she, and then in her journal she wrote like, eh, it'll probably be bad karma for me not to believe in this. She's just like, she's super funny. And like, I really admired it. Yes, yes.

She was a great sense of humor. She is like a little bit of a dry sense of humor. Yeah, totally. But it's, and Gail totally, it's her biggest fan in terms of her humor. And it's, I was just talking with Kate yesterday. She's, she's in graduate school now for speech and language pathology. And she just took a job waiting tables to earn some money while she's there and realizing that people don't get her sense of humor yet. So it's like, it's this little bit of a waiting period.

Right. Well, people come on board. But yeah, it's fun. It's to hear what they think about something or what they have to say. Yeah. And then I was taken aback by Gail's courage. Like, that's a pretty bold move for a woman in her early 20s to go to like a war-torn part of South America. Like, where did that kind of courage?

Maybe the name of the company was called Four. Was that, am I right in saying that? Yes. Yes. yes, F-O-R, F-O-R peace presence. And now I'm blanking on what those initials are for,

but it's, because peace presence is sort of the thing that stands out, which they expanded to. But yes, I was really hoping she wasn't going to go there. Like, don't choose that. And I just, like, try to not pay any attention to it

because she was young, but it was really her choice. And she and her, her other colleagues there really passionate about it. And the social justice piece runs really deep for her. So that was really important. But yeah, very tricky to have her. That's part of what. I just, I had to go down. I had to have boots on the ground there and see what it was like. And I'm so glad I did. And was very much reassured by one of Kate's friends' parents. who was very familiar with the military and said that this accompanying thing really does work

and that it really does keep people safe, even though they're unarmed. Scared. Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, there is, you know, I like what you said in the book, too, where you had mentioned that, you know, your daughter had spoken to you, like, look, there hasn't been a major, you know, genocide down there in 10 years. 10 years, not even that long ago. She's like, that's 10 years ago.

You know, like, it's just so weird. Right, exactly. That's a blink. The blink of the night. When we're talking, countries with hundreds and thousands of years, 10 years, like an itty-bitty snippet. I'm going to change my power real fast. I'm sorry.

Okay. There we go. I had to turn on my power. It's so crazy to think that the older we get, how time changes. So 10 years for someone who may be 50 like me is a blink of. an eye but for someone who's 20 that's like half their life you know so yeah yeah so yeah at 23 when she looks back at 13 is like very very different but it's I think also uh if you're going to do something like that then you there's a way in which you have to really understand but screen out

the risk so that they're not overwhelming you have Otherwise, it's hard to do. Yeah, I really, like, throughout the book, you have all kinds of great nuggets of, like, the book is great in itself. But I found that as I was reading it, you kept just dishing out these perfect ideas that can help people move through their life. And one of the ones that I hung on to was this idea of, I like to have fun. So I don't let the fear get in the way of the fun. Can you really flesh that out for people? Yes, this definitely one of my abiding philosophies in my selfishness.

I want to enjoy doing what I'm doing. And I don't want to be, I don't want to live being scared. And so I try to address my concerns so that I can do something that is appealing. So it's, I'm trying to think of, I was recently, well, I was talking with my editor last night because we're thinking about putting together a book of my columns. And she said, well, take me back to the place where you were before, when you first started writing them. And that was when I was working full time, but I knew that I needed to write. And so I was going to leave my full-time job in order to give myself the space to write. And I got a job working for caterers in order to make a living.

But I had to get myself into a place where that risk felt doable. And it did. So if you can keep sight of where you're headed, then some of the the other things don't get in the way as much. Yeah. Do you think that that's something that comes from traveling? Like obviously when you travel to a different area, it's easy to be frightened because of the unknown. But the truth is, just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's wrong. It's because you don't know something. Doesn't mean you're in trouble. It's because you don't know something. Does it mean that it's going to be a catastrophe? And in fact, if you're willing to

be safe but also indulge a little bit, you can really find some real learning process there. Right. It's in that space. I'm intrigued by that space because I think that it's interesting. And that's how we learn by being willing to go into places that are familiar. And in my work as a therapist, I will often talk about people. people getting to a crossroads where what's familiar is not working. And so if you can get to the place where you know that staying with your current path is really not going to work well for you, it makes you more open to trying something new because if staying the path is going to lead to bad things, harm in any way, then it's like, well, I might as well try this, even if it's,

it's unfamiliar or unknown. But if we can get, if we can start to think of the unfamiliar, be curious about it. So that that's really, if we can raise our curiosity level, it is easier to move into the unknown. That's a great way to put it. And as you're talking about that, it makes me think, I'm curious to get your opinion. As a therapist, it seems to me that when we travel, we are forced to relate to people differently, especially if we're speaking different languages.

And that forces to look at different social cues, different facial cues. And then when you come back home and you're with somebody in a relationship, it's almost like traveling and relationships are similar because you can find new territory in a relationship, the same way you can find new territory in a different country if you're willing to take that chance. And it can be so exhilarating and successful. I've never thought about it like that. That's interesting. Yes, exactly.

It's, and when traveling, because things are new, it is easier to stay open and to be appreciating what's new and be curious about it. Yes, if we can bring that curiosity back to relationships where we start to make assumptions or where we start to get into habits, some habits are lovely, but other habits aren't. But yeah, if we can maintain that curiosity about the people around us, then it affords us the ability to be less judgmental and not take things as personally, but just try to understand that person. So I think travel helps us to be more understanding with the people in our lives on an ongoing basis. I think you may have just established a new branch of therapy called

travel therapy, where people that are in a relationship, they go on a trip and they come back better. One person actually suggested to me, she said, well, so are you going to organize mother-daughter trips to places? And it's like, maybe. I haven't put that together. But it'd be a way to combine my interest, potentially. I think it would be an interesting thesis for someone to write, like in a psychiatric journal

or something like that. I bet you it creates all kinds of new relationships and forces. is people to work together in ways where they may have been a little, I don't really want to work with this person. But if you have to work with them and you have to solve problems and those problems become successful, all of a sudden you've built this bridge with somebody and now you almost have to admire them in a way. And you're forced to see them in a way that is beyond your own personal bias. You know, I think that I know I suffer from that. It's really easy to get into this idea of seeing people the way you want to see them instead of the way that they are.

And maybe traveling takes us out of that comfort zone and forces us to see things a little bit more clearly. It's a fascinating idea. Yeah, I think, I think so. It's because especially when you're in new places or different cultures, there may be some things that you imagine about it, or certainly things you may have read or watched. But when you're there, you really have to be paying attention and seeking to understand. So it's a great, it's a great template to take to other parts of our lives. That's fun.

Yeah, there was so many cool spots, so many cool stories in your book that I can imagine a mother and daughter, you know, going around. Like you saw a couple of police officers arm in arm walking around and how that's so different from here and some of the different symbols you saw throughout Bhutan and when you were hiking. Like there must have been so many cool mother-daughter moments that you'll cherish forever. And for those of just tuning in right now, the book is called Who Will Accompany You? My mother, my mother-daughter journeys far from home and close to my heart. And if you're listening, pick up the book.

I promise you you're going to love it. It's full of so many cool stories. And Meg's an incredible author. And the way she used the words to paint pictures in that book is amazing. But yeah, I just wanted to tell people about some of the relationship stories that you had in there. And some of the, what do you think was the, what do you think was if you could pick, one story or one idea from Kate's trip and one idea from Gail's trip, what would those stories be that really are you thinking about currently or hit your heart pretty hard?

That's an interesting question. To choose one particular. Well, one of the ones that comes to mind was when I was really, when I was really, with Kate when I was reunited with her after she had been on the course and I had been on the trek to the Annapurna Bays camp. And we did not have any communication at all during that time. And nor even could I tell her when I was going to show up because we had no access to any kind of communication that way. And so I didn't know what it would be like when I saw her. But as soon. as I got to her room and she happened to be there because I had no way of knowing if she would be, but she was. And she just looked full of life and happy and it was, it was like in charge.

And clearly she had learned a lot and felt at home there. And it was really great to see her. And then when we went into Baudenath, she was the one to negotiate a cab fare or she was the one because I had not been, I hadn't been around people much, but she had. And so like, at 17, she could take charge of that where she used to be much shyer. So that was that was a particular moment of seeing the growth and being able to be right there. seeing it when it was happening. And Gail, seeing her inaction in the community and like going to that woman's house in particular.

And there was a moment in Gail's little place in the community where she had some work to do. And so I was just wander around or write in my journal, but I could see her on the phone and they would check in with headquarters about requests for accompaniment. And so even though she was laughing and really enjoying the kids and talking about what happens there, there were moments when she was really serious

and really had to assess what the level of risks were, what the requests were, and to see her in that mode. It was like, oh, wow, she's so grown up. that's really striking. Yeah, one of the, one of the, one of my favorite parts of the book was some of the insights that Gayle had. Like I'm imagining, and for those listening, I imagine a young 23-year-old woman from the United States in the heart of like this Colombian jungle. And she's trying to translate between the federallies and these other people. And she did so good at explaining this idea of like,

I was paraphrasing, but it's something along the lines of like, here I am in this war-torn place. And I have to think what these people are telling me, because some of them could be lies. And I'm trying to figure out if I should do it in chunks or if I should say it this way. And I'm thinking, wow, translation means interpretation. And you're the one with the information. And that's such a power. That must be something that she will remember forever. And it came through in the story or in her blog or in the communications to you.

I could almost picture her there and her mind just racing and what that must have been. Like that was such a cool story. I'm so proud of you and them. And right within that same story that you're talking about. So when she's translating for the army, like the words, I remember her saying, like the words are then coming out of her mouth. So it's almost like she's representing the army herself. So it's like how do you, you know, she didn't have experience translating. So it's how do you maintain your own sense of equanimity when what she is saying doesn't ring true to her own ears.

So really, really challenging to remain respectful and remain true to their intent, but also when struggling with your own interpretation of what they mean, very, very challenging. On so many levels, the language alone, the intent behind it, and then like sort of feeling like she's embodying the army herself there, which was awkward. But, yeah, really interesting. Yeah, that's one of those stories that allows you to transcend humanness a little bit because you realize so much. in that moment like, oh, am I, am I translating for them? I'm speaking two languages. I'm just going to spit this out right here. And, you know, you really realize how much of a catalyst you are and your race goes away. Everything goes away except the information at that point in time. And it seems

like it can be like a great idea for you to see the world in a new way. But I think that that's one of those things. It only comes from traveling and being thrust into these situations that are, you know, dangerous, but liberating at the same time. And like, that's, I think, one of the real takeaways from traveling and living. And maybe that's one of the things that makes it so much, I don't know, fun is the right word, but it makes it so exhilarating is because you're really living your life at that point in time. There is the here and now at that moment.

You're in it. It's fascinating. Yeah. To spend that. I agree with you. It was interesting that as much as she, as, Gail totally embraced being there, there was also a time limit to it.

And like I knew that she would need to stay longer than the year or would want to stay longer than the year. And part of it, I didn't realize she would end up, it would end up being half and half in the remote community and half in Bogotape, very different. But it was also challenging. And I think that she kept some of the challenges from us so that even though she loved it,

I think some people wondered if she would want to live there, if she would want to stay there longer. And she totally loved the people, but the work was very trying, and there were aspects of it that I know that she kept on the simpler side for us, both for safety, safe for them, but also because she knew it would be difficult for us to hear

about some of the dangers that some of the people that they work with had been in or some of the deaths, some of the mutilations, some of the disappearings. And it was weird to have her be so intentionally, not secretive, but keeping things, certainly, sort of secretive. Yeah, she has a whole section on the idea of secrets. And it's so fascinating. Again, we talk about it. about interpretation and translation and cultures and, you know, the way we in the West seem to look at secrets is different, maybe have a different motivation than someone who needs to keep a secret. And she spoke about body language and the ability to understand when someone is staying silent because they want you to be safe versus the idea when someone's staying silent

because they don't want you to know something. Those are pretty deep insights for somebody to have. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And it's, uh, uh, uh, I have strong feelings about secrets myself, so she's grown up about that because I think they're destructive. Right. And watching a TV show. They said, oh, that secrets lead to lies, which I think that it can. And it just makes for a very complicated living. And also, a lot of times secrets are going to come out anyway.

So who is being protected by them is a complicated question. But where she was, it was a whole other layer. So she really had to deal with when it really could mean someone's physical safety was at risk by being truthful about something. So I didn't even get near the kinds of nuances that she needed to at that point. But that would be very tough for me because I like my simpler living and secrets makes it complicated. So I try not to happen. I would read if Gail wrote a book on secrets and fear and relationships and I would totally read that book. I bet you she has incredible insights on that.

It's an interesting. Yeah, please. Gail, if you're listening, I would love to read that book. I think that relationship between, you know, cultures and fear and secrets and trust is it's interesting it's a fascinating topic to think about it i am yes and how you gain someone's confidence and um what kinds of things will help help um increase the trust and they're needing to be a significant amount of trust with them living in the community for periods of time, but also they intentionally have people not live there

too long because then it becomes complicated. They need to be neutral, but the longer they're there, the more opinions they have, the harder it is for them to keep their own opinions out. It's like they care about these people and they see things and it's not up to to the volunteers, the workers, the FOR, the peace presence people, to tell people what to do. But the more they're there, the more that tendency comes in. So it's tricky, very tricky balance between gaining their trust, but not abusing it or not taking advantage of it. Tricky. Yeah.

You know, let me ask you to put your therapist hat on for a minute. Like, think about someone that comes from this culture. That's a beautiful hat. Did you get that in South America? Imagine someone. Okay, imagine someone that comes from this culture where they see secrets the way maybe Gail had to learn how to see these secrets. And they meet someone from the West who is like, we don't have secrets.

And they form this relationship. Is that relationship almost doomed? Because if these two people grew up in a culture where they see the world differently, they're definitely going to butt some heads, right? I think that it would take some negotiation and ongoing communication to bridge that gap. But it happens in different ways with different cultures. For any two people that grow up with different religions or different parts of the world, different customs, there needs to be a lot of communication about it in order for it to be able

to work. Because otherwise, you're right. If there's, if there's too much of a gap, it's going to be very difficult. So I remember there was a man that I dated years ago, obviously. But I remember, I still remember his coming to my apartment and feeling really proud about having figured something out. And it's like, and what was it that he should not trust anyone? It's like, okay, well, that pretty much crashes the relationship for me, because I cannot live my life from that place. Absolutely need to be discerning and can't trust everyone. But if that was what he had discovered as the thing, it was never going to fly. So just too far apart. Yeah. It's fascinating to think about. I know we're getting close to time, but I have a few other questions. And one of the

ones that I really wanted to ask you was that, you know, both of your daughters in their journal or in their emails or in their correspondence to you, I feel like they were often quoting different authors and different books. How important was reading in your family? And do you see reading as a form of traveling in a way? Sure, absolutely. Reading was important, just something that we love to do. And absolutely, reading is a way to get to know another person's point of view or to read about a different place or just be in a different mindset.

So, you know, we always had books around. It was one of the fun things. But yeah, I would say books particularly, well, books important to them and both. They both still love to read, which is great. Is that something that went into the planning for the trips? Did both girls read about the places and do some research on it before they went there? Or was it more of just like, I'm just going to suit up and head on out? That tends to be my M.O.

I am not as much as I love to read I am not a great researcher and certainly I need to know enough like because it was seeing the monastery at the Katzang monastery in Bhutan is like oh man I got to go to this place and so and I read some but it's not like I read a great deal. Kate was was studying trying to set up the whole trip. So she certainly read read some more about it. And I don't know how, Gail, I don't know how much she read before she went. Certainly in her teaching, she teaches about different cultures just incorporated into the language. It's just like a part of it for her. So they probably do more of it than I do or my husband might if we're going to someplace. We visited Hawaii for a week. And I'm more like,

to get there and talk to people and find out what people like to do, he's more likely to read up and say, we should visit this place or this place or this place. So I like to get it verbally. Yeah. If you come out to Hawaii again, I'd like to buy Duke of Beer. I'd love to see you guys. If you ever come out this way, let me know. It would be awesome.

I loved Hawaii and would love to go back. In fact, the reason we visited there was because we went with Gail to visit her friend, Kaya, who was with her during the time that she was in Columbia. They're one day apart, their birthday is a day apart, but she's from Hawaii. So we went and Gail stayed with her. We stayed like a little Airbnb right nearby. But it's Hawaii, very magical, spiritual. place. It's so true. It's so true. One of my, oh, if I can do a small aside, one of my all-time

favorite experiences was in Hawaii, where one of my friends had been recently, she said, you have to swim with the mantarays. So it's like, okay, I'm always down with anything to do with animals. So we were heading out around sunset on this boat that had maybe 20, 25 people. And there was one family that they're the parents and three kids and the oldest one was an adolescent and they get you like with your fins and your snorkel around this raft they turn on a light to attract the plankton which attracts the mantar rays which are just enormous and this adolescent who'd been like very too cool for school it was like very sort of standoffish happened to be right next to us.

And his head must have been out of the water because all of a sudden it's like, Mom! Look! Look at them. It's like a ballerina dance. Oh my God. And we were just cracked up because he was,

he couldn't help but be blown away by them because they were so enormous and so graceful and so close. And he, you know, he was like cursing. It was one of my biggest takeaways from Hawaii. So if you've never done it, I would recommend. Yeah. It's so I can't tell you how inspired I am every day to wake up,

watch the sunset or watch the sunrise and then see the sunset. And you're just surrounded by beauty here. And it's a really beautiful place. And speaking of beauty, I think the book that you wrote is graceful and beautiful. And it's very touching. And I think he did a fantastic job. And I hope that everybody,

listening to this goes and picks it up. Can you show it again? Do you have it right there? Can you show it so people can see? Yeah. It's trying to get it. There you go. It's not glaring. Yeah.

Who will accompany you, ladies and gentlemen, the story of a mother and her journeys from home and close to her heart. It's a phenomenal book. And I think you did a great justice in explaining what traveling is about and what are some good things. And you spoke well of your family. and you seem like you have such a beautiful family. And I am super thankful.

You know what? Maybe you guys should write like, remember the Frommer guides when you were younger? When you would keep like the Fromm? You could have like the Stafford guides. Like you and the daughter should be writing books about traveling. It would be amazing. They could payouts to go to other places. I would love that.

You're talking. I'd love to go and review places. That would be delightful. Before we land the plane, where can people find you? What do you have coming up? And what are you excited about? Oh, so it depends on an area. So my website is www. megstafford.com.

Or also, it's I snagged who will accompany you. So you can get to me or the book that way. And I am just starting work with my editor on my columns, which span from the early, the earliest. ones are from the 80s. So the earliest ones predate my husband even and they're on all kinds of things. So we're going to put them together. I got them recently and my girls really got a charge of seeing what I was thinking about them when they were really little about like there's the ones about each of them about how they navigated school pictures or head lice or or a starting kindergarten, you know, all,

all different kinds of things. So that will be upcoming in the future. But in the meantime, my blog is there, and so there are lots of things to take a look at there. Fantastic. Meg, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I hope everybody checks out the book. Like I said, it's a really fun read.

It's fascinating on many different levels. And I think that fathers, mothers, daughters, sons, aunts, uncles, grandparents. I think everybody would love to read it because I know that I did. And it's a fast read, but there's a lot of depth in there. So thank you for writing it. And is there anything else you want to say before we go? I'm so glad that you enjoyed it.

And absolutely, it was me and my daughters, but I feel like it wouldn't have been exactly the same. But it was if they were sons, it would also be what I was sharing with them. And I've had men and fathers read it and enjoy it. and there are people that like the hike enjoyed it or people that like Buddhism found it interesting. It's like there are different pieces. But thank you so much. You had really interesting questions.

It was really a delight to talk to you. Absolutely. Well, I'm going to have you hang out for one second. I'm going to land the plane here, but I'll speak to you real quickly off air once we want to do this. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I hope you have a phenomenal day. I hope the sun is shining and the bird is singing. That's what we got for today.

Aloha.