TrueLife - Melissa Kwan - Unwinding the Clocks of Liberation: Digital Threads of Freedom

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/I'm a 3rd time bootstrapped founder. My previous company, Spacio (real estate tech) was acquired in 2019.Webinar was the product I always dreamt about because I was drowning in customer webinars every day for 5 years.I'm now on a mission to give people their time back so they can do something else more fun, because that's what life is about.We don't need to work harder, we need to work more creativelyeWebinar.comhttp://linkedin.com/in/melissakwanhttps://cutt.ly/mkprofile One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope that everyone out there has a little something to look forward to, someone to love and something to do. It seems to me that those three things

can really pull you through a bad day. I got an incredible guest for you today. But before I get started, I just want to let everybody listening out there know that this podcast and independent media is kind of a tough gig sometimes. And the best way you can do to support people like me or podcast is to just go down in the show notes

and hit that little PayPal button right there. And if you can, that would be awesome. No matter how big, how small your donation totally helps. Now let's get into the incredible guest I have today. Melissa Kwan. She is a CEO and co-founder of E-Webinar. She has been in the startup game for over 12 years. E-Webner, I think is her third company. She's a digital nomad, a bit of an anti-authoritarian, an original thinker, and an incredible person to spend some time with today. So, Melissa, I'm super thankful for you here today. Did I leave anything out on that introduction?

I want you to keep going. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. I think I think that's the best one I've ever had. So feel free to just continue to compliment. Well, it's easy to compliment. You have created a life for yourself that is dangerously beautiful. And what I mean by that is that you've been very candid in other interviews where you've spoken about how you've got to be where you are. And it hasn't always been roses in rainbows. Sometimes you find yourself with the depths of despair and you find out who you are. So I'm going for dangerously beautiful here. And maybe you can just maybe help people color in that beautiful artwork with a little bit of an origin story. Yeah.

That's a like, I feel like that's a high bar to live up to. Like, I want to ask you which part you think is dangerous. You want to ask me? Yeah. Like what, like which part of my journey, like do you feel like is a dangerous part? And which part is a beautiful part? Okay. This is a great question.

I think the dangerous part is getting to the doorstep of despair. And in some of your previous interviews, you had talked about having to go to people you love the most and ask for help. That's dangerous. It's dangerous. I know people personally that I love that have gotten there and decided, you know what? I'm going to check out. I'm out of here. You can't do it because they can't ask.

And they can't come to grips with this idea of like, okay, I'm not who I thought I was. In fact, I am nobody. I'm nobody. I have nothing. That danger is where that amber of beauty. begins to burn because that's when you find out who you are, right? Like, only there can things begin to develop inside you that will burn bright forever, I think. I mean, that's like the business devil kind of like knocking on your door, right? I mean, I think everybody has that and I, yeah,

and, you know, things are pointing that out. And definitely, I think it's, it's not unique to me, right? Like many business owners, I'm sure you, you as well have come across that point in time where you're like, I'm just like not made for this. Everything is hard. Like, why is it so hard? but we'll come back to that. Yeah. So actually, I mean, it's probably like the 13th anniversary of me, you know, being startup world. Previous two startups were also in technology, but in real estate technology.

The technology company I'm building right now, eWebinar is more agnostic, industry, language, geography agnostic, purposely as well. So I'm not like pigeonholing myself into an industry like I did before. But always been bootstrapped. I think that's like kind of my claim to fame. had some family and friends funding and obviously put in like all my own money like including taking out loans that I couldn't really pay back for a long time to fund this thing. And of course, like using the best kind of funding as well, customer revenue to fund these

startups. My second company, I ran for five years and was acquired in 2019, which gave me the capital and the confidence to start, you know, this company. But I didn't sell my previous company for retirement level money. And so I actually had to start E-Weninar two months after that company was sold because I didn't, I just didn't want to work forever. And, you know, anything you start, I think it doesn't matter how much experience you have takes five years, right?

Like a couple years to conceptualize, get it out, a couple more years to, you know, see meaningful revenue, and then probably a couple more years to feel comfortable with it. So I didn't really want to be working forever. and that's why I started E-Webinar a couple months after. But that's a company that I'm running now. And I think the thing that I want to mention, and we can get into it as well, is how much more intention I started E-Webinar with compared to before

because I had the experience. And, you know, really the luxury to think about what I wanted to do next. In my first 10 years, I just did things because I wanted to make money. And I don't mean like that as a bad thing because I was young and I was hungry and it was all I knew. Like I didn't come from a family of founders and entrepreneurs. So everything I learned took longer because it was like a lesson that I had to figure out myself. Right.

But I was never truly happy with my two previous companies. I was always in survival mode. And there were just a lot of things that I would have done differently. So I was able to, you know, take a few months off and think about like, what is the company I want to start next? And it wasn't, you know, it didn't come from a place of like, okay, what's the product that's going to make most money? It came from a place of what is the company that's going to give me the life that I love the most? And what is the thing that's going to make me most happy? And that's how I chose the company, the product, the idea, and the people that I work with.

today versus, you know, my previous two was just like, okay, what is the thing that I'm good at? What is the thing that I can sell? And how can I make money? So these are the things that I feel like I'm like a huge advocate for now, like having lived both lives and how much more content and fulfilled I feel today, even though, you know, starting a company is hard. Because I everything that I do is now feeding, you know, my happiness versus, you know, the thing that puts you it's most money in my pocket. Ironically, when you do something that you're happy with, you make the most money. Imagine that.

Yeah, imagine that. It's hard. It's hard to get there, though, because we're so conditioned at a young age to think that material gains are what provide us our happiness. And I come from that culture, right? I'm coming from like a very traditional Chinese family where, you know, you're expected to be a professional, right? Like a doctor, an accountant, investment bank, or something really stable, right? And my parents were not entrepreneurs.

So I grew up thinking, okay, this is what my path was supposed to be. You know, this is why I was put through university. My dad, like I used to joke that and it's not really a joke, but I grew up in a shopping mall. Like other parents would take their kids to like camping and stuff. Like my dad would take us to like shopping malls. And my dad would buy me like Rob reports like the luxury magazine. So I could see all the things that I could buy if I had the money to buy it. And these are not like, you know, nice shoes.

Right. These are like private islands. Like giant mansions on like their own island. So I grew up really in that culture and attaching myself worth and my success. to material things, which I don't think is like, it's not a bad thing to like stuff. Right. Like, I like stuff. I like, you know, experiences.

But it is bad if your entire self-worth is tied to that thing because you are then not seeking, you know, validation internally, right? You're waiting for someone to congratulate you on the thing that you have. But, you know, that's actually where I came from. I think it speaks volumes of that. First of your parents must be incredibly proud of you. They must have seen, you should bring a rob report to your dad and be like, hey, we got them. Dad, we did it. I thought the number of years I had to fight my parents because I was doing this entrepreneur thing and I wasn't making any money.

And I was always poor. And they had bailed me out of my credit card a few times until they didn't talk to me for two years because they just wanted me to get over this founder thing. so I could go get a job. I think that period of my life was like 10 out of the 13 years. And even when I sold my company, I called my dad and I was like, hey, I sold my company. But they just have no concept, right? Like people that are not entrepreneurs have no concept of what it means because my dad would always say, well, if you're doing the right things, if you're successful, why don't

you have any money? So their idea was like, you are not taking your life seriously and therefore you have no money. They are not ever thinking, oh, you're really trying really hard at this. And this thing is really hard. And that's why you have no money. It's because you're sticking to it. That's why you burn through all that capital. So they just don't have a concept of that. So even when I sold my company, I was like so happy and I wanted them to be proud of me. The first thing he said to me was so exactly how much cash are you going to have in your account. I'm not even kidding you. And I'm just like immediately soul crush, but like also understanding like at that point,

I was old enough to not blame them for not being proud of me in the sense that I wanted them to be proud of me. Like it came from a good place because they just wanted to not take care of me anymore or not worry about it. But that's how little they understand about what I'm doing. But at this point, it doesn't even matter. You have a great quote that says, if you want to make money, don't be an entrepreneur. And it's, I think that there's something to be said about these incredible feelings of being really liberated when you've just left everything that you have behind when you're completely in debt but you're doing what you're loving you're like yeah and you tell people and they're like you are a

psychopath you're going to lose everything i don't know what you're doing don't even talk to me you're cancer right now like there's a weird there's a weird thing happening in there right yeah i mean i think that only happens um when you're younger or maybe maybe it's not like an age thing maybe it's more like an experience thing, right? Because like I think about who I was in my 20s when I started my first company and then also my second one and how like blue sky I was and how everything seemed really easy. So I think it's just the way you verbalize and express yourself and the way you feel like you need to tell everyone what you're doing because in some ways you're seeking external validation.

makes people have that reaction. Nowadays, I'm like, when I meet someone who I'm like, please don't ask me what I'm doing. Like, I do not want to explain to you. Like, one of my biggest pet peeves is like, somebody comes up to me in an event and be like, oh, what do you do? Oh, I have a software company. So what is it? Oh, it's a webinar.

So, like, exactly what is it? That is just like my biggest pet peeve. But before, I love to talk about myself. Right. Because I wasn't successful. Right. I was struggling and I wanted someone else to tell me that it was going to be okay. All right.

So I do think that like part of the reaction that you've, you know, that you've just mentioned is just almost a result of how you express yourself. It's a great point. It's a great point to think about it. It brings up this idea of the mission statement of what eWebinar is. I think it's a great mission statement. And I think it kind of sums up a lot of what we were talking about. Can you the mission statement of giving people their time back, right? Maybe you can talk a little bit about that mission statement,

what it means to you and how you, how it translates into what you're doing with the webinar. Yeah. So one of the things that I really wanted in my next company, right, after my second one was sold, it was like, I wanted to do something that I cared about. And like, you know, it wasn't like I wanted to start a nonprofit, like not that kind of thing.

Like I wanted something that was a reflection of me and who I am. And freedom has always been my number one priority. That's why we always had a remote team, never had an office way before it was cool. Right. Like I just wanted people to have complete freedom and control over their time and where they lived because I wanted to live that way. And, you know, so that's number one is like I just wanted to do something I cared about. Like in my first two companies, I sold software to real estate agents. I mean, it made me money, but it wasn't something I was like super proud of.

Right. And it wasn't something that was a reflection of who I am. Like I went into real estate and real estate technology because that was my experience. It was like one of my first jobs. And it was like where my connections lived and I and I knew what to do in that industry. But it just wasn't me. And I think that was a big part of why I was just never fully happy. but I was like too deep into it.

It wasn't like I was going to make a switch. But also like the problem of doing the same webinar over and over again. And that's a problem we solve. We take any video. We turn it into a webinar. So you never have to do them live. And I'm not talking like one time recordings like what we're doing now. I'm talking like your demos, your training, like all the stuff that you want to be doing

every single day, but you just don't have the brain power. Nor is it like doesn't make financial sense to do that. So I lived the problem of doing the same webinar every single day, sometimes multiple times a day for my previous company because we were always bootstrapped. And so it was just a problem that I knew intimately well. But the reason why it was a problem was because I was already nomading around the world. And I was doing these webinars on like opposite time zones. It got to a point where I would land in a new city and I would go to the hotel or Airbnb and I would have to test the internet speed. like right away to see if I can run this, this webinar. And if it didn't, I would have to go by

like a portable Wi-Fi or a local SIM card because I had this training that was coming up. So it was actually infringing on my lifestyle and my freedom. And I always hated how I spent so many years earning that freedom that I had finally. But then my freedom, my schedule, was completely tied to my customer schedules of when they wanted the training for my software. So I always dreamt up this, this, you know, product that could free me from all these predative webinars and just allow me to live my life more. It would give me my freedom back. And this was just one of the things that kept surfacing in my mind is like, why isn't

there something out there that's good enough to be me so I can just go and like live my life? So that was kind of where it came. is like, I knew I wasn't the only person living this problem. Like I knew so many different people, so many different founders and entrepreneurs running small businesses like mine that can't afford to hire a team of people like doing trainings for them. And not only did I want to free myself, I wanted to free people like me so that they can grow their business without sacrificing, you know, the quality of contact that they were

putting out there. So the idea of building something to give people back their time. was just something that's so close to my heart. And now that we have the software, just to give you an idea of scale, like last year in 2022, I did 3,000 demos because people just come to our website,

the journal demo. I'm not actually there. And I didn't do a single one live. And I don't have any salespeople. So that's the scale and impact that it can have just on myself. And it's cool to be able to provide that for other people now. Because back then, like when I sold software to real estate agents,

they just yelled at me all the time. Like it didn't matter that like, you know, we were putting our heart and soul and creating this like amazing software. Like it was an open house check and software for them. But now like we actually have people thanking us because, you know, they're going on their first vacation in two years because of this.

Right. I was able to go to Burning Man and disconnect for nine days because we have this. Right. Otherwise somebody would have to be in my position. So that's kind of where the idea of freedom came from is like it's just something that. is so close to my heart, but it's also a problem that I live with for many years. And the other thing is, I think a lot of business owners start companies to be free, right, to have their own schedules,

call their own shots. But then as the company grows, as your customers become more demanding, they work more in their business because they feel like they need to. Or maybe they don't have enough resources to hire people to replace them. And then they forget that, you know, freedom is the primary reason why they started their company in the first place. So a big part of wanting to build this company is wanting to help business owners like myself get back to, you know, why they started this in the first place and making it possible. That, thanks for sharing that. It's amazing. Well, it seems to me that one of the recipes for success, not only in your life, but in other people's life, it's just identifying a problem that they have within solving it and then making it a pathway for other people to do.

It just seems, is that, I mean, when I hear about freedom and wanting time back and then creating both a product and a service, like somehow you merge those two things together and allowed people to use that as a pathway forward, do you think that's part of the recipe is finding something that you internally struggle with and, presenting that answer to the world? I mean, I think that's ideal. Sure. Like, of course, that's ideal. Like, wouldn't you love to do something you're good at that you're passionate about and then make it a product or service? But I think while that's ideal, I wonder if that is an earned privilege.

Because for me, that was. Right? Like, I started two companies in real estate because that's where my background was and my first job was in real estate. and I created a product for the industry that I knew, right? Was I passionate about it? No, but I was sure an expert at it. And it can still be successful, right?

So I hate to say like one path is better than the other because sometimes you just got to do what you got to do. Right. Right? You don't do what you love only. Like that would be amazing if we did. But as an entrepreneur and business owner, you do what is required, especially if you're building assets and building wealth,

so that maybe next time around or later on, you can do something you are truly connected to. Right. So I don't think it matters which path you take. It's just like what is the opportunity that's in front of you right now? Like my little cousin used to, he hated school, like absolutely hated school. And he was always so bad at like math and, you know, physics and all that. And my uncle's like, oh, can you talk to him?

And this was like many years ago. He was like a teenager and he was like, well, I just I just suck at it because I hate it. I'm like, like, dude, like it's so easy to be good at something that you love, right? People that are great at what they do can be really good at what they hate. And because it is just required, right? So I think that really applies to founders as well. Like, yeah, it's great if you find something that you're like an expert and you love. But sometimes that's not always the same thing.

And I think that's okay. Yeah, there's something to be said about finding meaning in something you do. I think it was Victor Frankel who wrote the book, Man, Search for Meaning. And he talks about being locked away in some concentration camp, but still finding meaning in there. And I think if you can do that, regardless of where you're at, that's what sparks the creativity. And maybe this is a good segue into. there seems to be an interesting relationship between authority and creativity. A lot of times in my life, I've found creative ways to make people in authoritarian positions upset.

But I think that that same sort of relationship helps you create pathways out of difficult situations. It doesn't have to be authority. But what do you think is the relationship between authority and creativity? I mean, when you say authority, like, what are you referring to? Like, who is that authority? Is it like society? expectation or is it like your boss, your mentor? Like what are you referring to?

When I would say authority, maybe that's a great question. Let's start with the society's limitations. Like maybe that's your own perceived limitations. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think a really great, you know, example of that, especially in like the startup world is, you know,

don't raise money, you're not real, right? If you don't raise money, you're not successful. You're not ambitious, right? You're just like a tiny little mom and pop shop. Like, you're insignificant, right? And if you come from bigger, you know, startup cities like, you know, San Francisco, New York, London, like that's, you know, that's the message that that you get. And that's actually the messaging that I got, you know, when I moved to New York to grow my previous company. I think it is as limiting as you make it. What I had to learn. because no VCs would give me money, and I had to still make money.

And then eventually we didn't need VC money anymore because we were profitable. So, like, I saw both sides of the, both sides of the coin where, like, you know, you do a certain pitch, you fit into a cookie cutter, like, you know, slide deck so that you can raise money and everyone does the same thing versus, like, not needing that and then understanding that businesses exist on many different spectrums.

Right. So I think it's as limiting as you make it because when you fit into what society wants you to do, like there is a template for it. There is a process for it. It's like you don't go and make your own slide deck. Like you download them from the internet. And it is in a certain order. And then there are organizations, companies like accelerators and mentors that help you. make the slide deck to be more templated. So investors see the exact same thing leading them to fund your company. So I think like if you want to follow a certain recipe, like there is a recipe for success in that realm. But if you remove yourself from that and you say like actually I don't care because I'm going to, you know, I'm going to call my own shots and make my own destiny and I don't need

someone else's money, then, you know, the sky is the limit. You can do like literally anything you want. And I think that for me is the most inspiring because I'm a bootstrapper myself. I have a community of kind of bootstrap founders around me. And just seeing the different ways they build their business and the different ways they lead their lives are like that is what. Like that is what I aspire to. Right. Like I don't aspire to, you know, raising a ton of money, hiring so many people, getting on tech crunch.

Like I used to want that because I needed that external validation. And then you realize how unimportant that is to your success. So I think that's like, but it's not like I said, it's not like one path is better than the other. Like some people really love that, right? Some people want to raise money and want to hire a lot of people, want a cool office and and want to IPO. And frankly, we also need those companies.

Yeah. Right? Like the Uber's and the Airbnb is like those are the companies a lot of times that create a fun. fundamental shift in how we live, live our lives. And so we need those. But most people are not made for that. The problem comes is when they think they are and they try to go that path. And they don't know what to expect. And then they're, you know, and then they're fall, they've fallen into this thing that they don't love. Right. So I think that's kind of the relationship. But I do think that now when venture capital is much harder and profitability has become cool again, people are. starting to be more creative in how they want to live and how they want to build their companies, especially after the pandemic. Because instead of traveling for work every month, people are realizing, actually,

I kind of like staying at home. And that's fueled, I think, kind of the next generation of founders and business owners and what it means to be a business owner and not fit into, you know, the cookie cutter kind of template that your peers have told you that. you need to become. It's so beautiful. It's so like meta in a way. Like my grandpa used to say, if you want a new idea, read a really old book.

And in some ways, it's a pretty good quote, right? And in some ways we start talking about, oh, it's cool to be profitable again. And sometimes we talk about the rule of authority and creativity. Do you see, and then we have COVID-comber. Everybody's back home. We used to travel. Do you see like this series of pattern? Maybe it's not a, maybe it's not that history repeat, but we're rhyming in a helical,

model moving upwards in some ways. But do you see a pattern in that particular movement of business and ideas that we're on now? Yeah, I guess I'm not like old enough to see those patterns, right? But I will say that companies used to only thrive on profit. So just based on that, I think, you know, we're definitely back there. Like, I mean, how old is venture capital? I don't know. Like, is it 30 years, 20 years? I'm not sure. But like, you know, companies used to have to make a profit. You know, and it's not just tech companies, right? It's like your coffee shop next door, right? The vendor down the street.

You know, you used to take like manageable loans, not like hundreds of millions of dollars of loans, right? So from that perspective, I think, you know, yeah, we're probably going back to where, you know, where we started. But I think there's just not so much a pattern, but maybe a shift in control. I love it. Like taking back control, like where it's control of my time, of my productivity, you know, of my career, right? Like, you know, the gig economy where you can, you know, be a food delivery driver, you know, on the weekend, but you can also have this other job or you can be a contractor

on Upwork or you can just, you know, quit your job and be a contractor for your same company and you're willing to lose those benefits, but then now you can work remote full time, whereas when you're under them, you couldn't, right? So I think there is a shift in taking control of your own destiny. And that has been made, I guess, possible by technology, right? Like having more transparency, having more ways to pay, having more ways to communicate, right?

Having more ways to be in front of someone or even just, asynchronous communication, but having the ability to be in front of someone, but not actually be physically there. And that's, you know, opened up a whole new world of like, you know, if I can have control over my time and my life, like, how do I want to spend it? And I think that's all related. Yeah, that's beautiful. In some ways, it echoes the rapid innovation and transformation we're seeing. When people have access to free-flowing, information. And you could argue that a lot of what we're seeing now is a freeing up of copyrights, kind of a freeing up of patents when you look at the way AI has freed us to use images and

templates. And it's it's no wonder why we're seeing this rapid innovation. Here's an interesting question. As someone who is developing sort of this Web 3 technology and these companies and as an entrepreneur, it seems like social media has a way of alienating us in a weird sort of way. Do you think that what you're doing on some level makes people more alienated from themselves or does it open up themselves to be freer to connect with people? Yeah, I guess that's an interesting question, right?

It's like, I mean, when you say alienating, like give me an example of what you're referring to. So I love talking to awesome people like yourself and all these guests on here. And I find myself in my living room, which is awesome. I'm going on my books and my map behind me. It makes me feel good about myself. But I'm alienated from the people that I used to spend a lot of time with at the old job that I was at.

I'm alienated from my family. And I'm alienated in a way that I have this chamber of people with whom I enjoy speaking. But I am sort of siloed over here in a weird sort of way. You know, and I don't know if I feel it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's not so much like social media or it's just technology, right? like, you know, allowing people to connect without actually meeting in person. I think I can only speak in my perspective and my point of view.

I want to be alienated from, like, I want to be alienated from work people, honestly. Right. Like I love talking to you and I love being on a podcast and like I want to be on, you know, some digital-based conferences. But, you know, I spent 10 years going to conferences and sitting at booths. And smiling at people that walk by and trying to get them to like come to my booth. Because the, you know, because the company that we have a partnership with has it in our contract that we have to fill their conference, you know, whole or whatever. And it's just like the biggest waste of time.

But also like super not environmentally friendly, right? This kind of stuff. And but it was required and very expensive. So, I mean, I don't want to spend my time with work people in. like in person. So I've chosen not to. And that was actually one of the non-negotiables that I had coming into E-Webinar. So I don't think it makes, I don't think technology makes it such that we're more alienated from people. I think it makes it such that we are able to choose better who we spend our time with because there are still business conferences I can go to. You know,

Saster just happened and I could have gone if I wanted to. But I could be more choosy with my time. right and I want to spend all my in real lifetime with my friends and family in fact like I have a no call no networking no conference rule like and like people are like shocked by that but I always say like it's not like it's it's not personal I just don't do it and some people get offended like 10% of people get offended and they're like oh don't you want to build your business I'm like not with you because if I want to build my business with you, I would be meeting you. You know, like how many call requests do we get like every day on LinkedIn? Like, hey, do you have 15 minutes?

Like, if I gave everybody 15 minutes, I would have no 15 minutes. But unless you are a friend or like a super close friend of a friend, like I don't even take a Zoom call. Because every time I've done it, I've regretted it. And it just gives me no ROI. And it's different if you're like, hey, I've got this friend. Can you help them do this thing? And can you connect with them? Like, that's a different thing.

But it's like, hey, do you want to connect so we can do? network? It's like, no, I do not want to network. I've networked enough. I've hit my quote of networking. So I think it's beautiful in the sense that it allows us to be more choosy. And that goes back to taking back control. Back then, I had no control because I needed to go to this conference and sit at a booth because it was required of me. And that's how my software was sold. So I needed to do it. Yeah, I didn't have to, but I would have to suffer on my revenue. But that's why I built a company that could be sold, you know, 100% over the internet. That was also one of the non-negotiables that I had. So I actually think technology is beautiful in that way. And you can choose who you spend your time with in real

life and also, you know, connect digitally. So I think it allows us to like cut out, you know, all the kind of BS and all the garbage that we, we used to have to do because it was just a thing that we had to go to. I don't know if you, like, experience the same thing. I do. I think that the answer to the question, is that really necessary, George? The answer to that question is, yes, it's imperative. So I think that all the things that we went through and all like these cardboard cutout middlemen that we needed to have agencies for things, I think that technology is giving people the ability to build parallel economies. And whether that's with your time, whether that's with money, or NFTs or whatever you choose to exchange between peer and peer. I think technology is the foundation on which we're building these parallel economies. And you and I can have an economy and my wife and I can have an economy. And it's really incredibly liberating to understand what that means for you, your family, your loved ones, your time.

And I'll give you an example. I was speaking to a gentleman the other day, Israel Wilson, who's, we talked a little bit about the board api yacht club NFTs and why they were so successful. and it fleshed out this idea of imagine a collective of artists and engineers and intelligent fun people getting together. And we all pitch in $1,000. We have a $1,000 token. And I'm like, whenever we have that token, I can call in my favorite. Hey, Melissa, here's my token. I really need help with this SaaS product.

I need your expertise on this. You're coming to my rescue. Hey, George, I really need help with this podcast over here, these ideas. Boom, I'm coming to your rescue. We just created this artistic enclave of productive power that will allow us to, propel ourselves into the next world, you know? And that's happening right now, Melissa. Like, I see it happening. It's really exciting for me and other people. And I wish more people would get on the technology bandwagon and see technology in AI as this tool that might be, I look at it as

like all these old things like the scaffolding on a rocket ship and they're falling away. And now we're finding ourselves kind of lifting into space a little bit. So that was a long-winded way of saying, yes, I think technology is doing something similar. Yeah, I mean, it's not going away, right, so you can take advantage of it or you can hate on it. Right. And I think the other thing I want to mention, like, is, like, I think it does shut out, like, some relationships, but it also means that you have to be intentional about building relationships. Like, it allows us to build deeper relationships because it doesn't require us to be physically there, right? Because we're so text-based.

We're so asynchronous base. And also, like, I've met a ton of friends that I would call my friends. that I would never meet in real life. Like, isn't that crazy? That is. Like, I have a community of founders on, on WhatsApp that, like, we can just throw questions out to. And, you know, it's a pretty tight community of, like, 30, like, 30, 40, you know, founders

that are, like, kind of in the same stage. But, like, these are people who may never meet in the rest of their lives. And we still communicate almost daily in a way that, like, as if we know each other on our phones. I think that's pretty special, right? And, you know, you can have one-on-one conversations on, you know, text or whatnot with them as well. And like I, and even with my parents, like, I come from culture where you don't talk to your parents in real life ever. Like, my dad and I used to go into each respective rooms and just email each other.

So, like, because it's just so awkward to have a conversation. And so, like, it's also allowed us to have deeper conversations. because it removes the awkwardness of face-to-face. And, like, I think, I think there are, like, bad things about it. Like, people, you know, certain people, it's, it makes certain people, I guess, have, like, digital personality, so it's probably bad for, like, online dating. If you, if that's all you do. But in a big way, I think it actually fuels a lot of relationships and allows for better

communication because not everybody is great at communicating in real time, right? You need to think about something and write it down before you hit the send button. And that part about technology and communication, I think, is beautiful and cool. Yeah, it's a fascinating way to investigate relationships. I think it's Lloyd Lobo who says that relationships are the new currency. And I can't help but see in my own life the relationships I have made that have echoed some of the things you're saying. People I never would have spoken to in my life where I've been able to ask some questions. And then that starts a relationship.

And you're like, son of a gun, I never thought about it from that angle. That's amazing. And it's the emotion was stripped out of it. It was just a, yeah, it's like sitting next to someone on a plane. Like you have this long conversation with somebody sometimes. I don't even know them and you just walk away and never see them again. But similar with a WhatsApp group. Like you can have this brain trust of people with whom you're not physically or truly emotionally tied to.

And they'll give you their honest opinion. There's something beautiful about it. Yeah. And I think like on the on the topic of like social currency, I mean, my, and all my startups have been built on favors. Right. Like I mean, I started doing things for people before they were asked for years. And it's not like, hey, George, can you do me a favor? It's like it just becomes the thing.

Like especially I think as founders, like anyone that's walked the same path is like, okay, this is really hard. And I want to work other, like help other business owners. it just becomes a very natural thing, you know, and the more, like if you're in this brain trust, the more other people see how, you know, everyone else is helping each other, the more they want to contribute. So I think it's, yeah, I mean, I think it's investing in relationships is, is something that needs to be very intentional. But it's definitely something that, you know, you have to give out a lot first without like expecting something in return. But yeah, it's absolutely like the currency.

I'm a huge fan of Carl Young and that particular tree of philosophy. And one of the lessons I take away from him is that everybody you see is like a mirror of yourself. And it was only a few short years ago that I started really understanding that the people that I despise in daily lives that I would see all the time, like, I hate this guy.

Hey, talking to this person. Dude, what are I talking to him? The more I realized, that person was showing me what I hated about myself. You know, and it was like, oh, this person is weak. And I was like, I'll tell you a quick story. People may have heard this before, but it's a fun one. So there was this guy at my work a few years ago, probably like eight, nine years ago.

And I never got along with him. He was the nicest guy in the world. And he always said, but I always be mean to him. And one of my friends pulled me aside, and they're like, George, you're a dick. I'm like, I'm just busting his balls. Forget about it. I'm like, nah, man, it's over the line. And I remember I came home that weekend and I did a giant dose of mushrooms.

And I started thinking because it bothered me. And I'm like, why am I being a dick? What's my problem? So I started thinking about it. And it hit me like a one-two punch. So like the first punch was, I don't like that guy because he's weak. And then it hit me, I'm weak. That guy's showing me everything about me that's weak.

And I'm just projecting it on him. Oh, my, I had to go and apologize. I'm like, I am such an asshole, dude. I hope you forgive me. All these things that I've said. And let me repeat him again. And you can tell you can punch me if you want to. Totally mean.

I don't deserve this. You know, like, just kind of throwing myself on his mercy. And he just laughed at me. You are an asshole, but. You're all right. So, but anyways, he forgave me. But it was that moment that I began to realize I should be thanking all the people that I despise. They should be thinking all the people I'm mad at because they're showing you. And I think that's the, have you found that that's a language that the universe speaks to you? Like, look at this over here. You can see these lessons everywhere if you're willing to look at them, right? Yeah, I've never had like a similar experience because the people that I despise and I just don't like being around. I just cut them out of my life. Like I have no problem

and just like not being around them. Like it's just a waste of my energy. So I'm not like so like I'm not introspective in that way. Like oh, why do I like despise this person? And why am I mean to them? I try not to be mean to people. Right. But I like actively like curate.

Like curation is the key to my life. And I and I like and I like and now that I'm older, I feel like like I just so I just turn 40 like a couple months ago. Congratulations. I feel like, thank you. So I feel like I've like unlocked an other level of dissoning. Totally. You know, that I could be like, no.

It's like, can this person join this group? No. Look, I don't know this person. And like unless, like, unless WhatsApp, you know, decides not announced to everybody that someone's been removed or someone leaves the group. Like, I can't just like willy nilly include people in these in these group chats. I've never met your friend. I know we're going to the same event on the weekend, but I've never met your friend. So curation is like the key to my life.

life. So I do think it's important, right, to, like, actively cut people out of your life that drains your energy. Like, who has time for that? Yeah, boundaries, right? This idea that you have to have healthy boundaries, whether it's, I mean, work life, that, how do you navigate that? Was there a time in your life where you had to curate the new boundaries? Like, when you talk about going to New York and all of a sudden seeing the way these slides act versus, hey, I don't really need that, but was there evolution of your boundaries in your in your career can you talk about that yeah i mean i i think it's all for me it's not like i have my work life and i have my life life right like i think work the the word work life balance is is has always been weird to me because it

insinuates that you have two lives i think that the two should be intertwined as a single life right if you find something that you truly enjoy working on, like in your professional life, it's just part of your life. And so, like, I don't feel like people can compartmentalize who they are. So how I treat my professional life and my personal life is actually very similar. When I moved to New York was probably like my least discerning, you know, period of my life because I didn't know what I was doing. You know, I moved to New York from Vancouver.

I didn't have any friends. So every person that I met initially was like through one other person. You know, they connected me on Facebook and I'd be that new person like begging people to have dinner with me. And then I went to every single start of events to try to meet people. And then I started this co-living house where I would just hang out with my roommates. So I just was, I just met everybody. And I because I needed to build a new life in my early 30s where everybody had established friend groups, you know, in a foreign city. So that was that was pretty hard.

But I guess I started to become more aware of how I needed to cut out energy vampires, like maybe just a few years ago, right? Like I used to, I used to, you know, invite people because you, like, because my friend knew that person even if I didn't like them. But it just, it just drains so much of your energy that it's just, you know, not worth it. So I started to become more discerning in that sense. But I was also then, you know, applying that, I guess, in my professional life is like, there are people that are just sucky.

Right? I'll give you an example. Sure. You know, there are so like the thing, the one of the, one of the types of people that bothered me the most professionally are like humble braggers. And they just, they're just out there to make you feel bad. But it's not, they're not out there to make you feel bad. that's the result. They're out there to make themselves feel good. And when you are a struggling

startup founder like I was for the first 10 years of my life, hearing about how amazing someone is doing, especially in the same conversation where you're telling them you're not doing well is like the last thing you want to hear. And there are so many of these people that just want to like pat themselves on the back and like let them know, like, oh, I'm working on this really big deal right now, but I can't tell you what it is. It's going to be life-changing. There's a lot of those, especially in big cities.

So I've, you know, actively, like these are like energy vampires that I like actively cut out because it just just makes me feel bad. And it's not productive. So in my professional life, I think that's kind of the path that I'm taken. But now, like, I don't have any friends in my social life that are like, you know,

that are just work related. I keep those. That is one thing I keep fairly separate because I don't need to make friends with my work. But yeah, I think that's a, what do you think about that? It's true. I think that a lot of times people are seeking validation from other people. And again, with my grandpa, the emptiest barrel makes the loudest sound, right?

It's just this giant echo. Your grandpa's a smart man. You need to have a coat. like a page or book of quotes from your grandpa. His fifth wife shot him five times. He's an awesome guy. He's no longer with him. Papa Bob,

we love you. But yeah, it's true. It's in, and you can see it. It doesn't matter if you're in a big city, a small town, if you're at your community center

or you're at a big event somewhere. The person that's always telling you how great they're doing is probably the most insecure person out there. And if you get too close to him, you're going to get it on you. a little bit. So you should probably try to stay away from them. But I've seen that in my life too. And I think it's a strain of illness that infects us.

Because if we're honest with ourselves, we all find ourselves wanting other people to see us for the greatness that we think we have inside of us. And I think that the person humble bragging or bragging just hasn't found a way to get people to see them in the way they want them to. So they're desperately trying to like, hey, it's just our ego. It's like everything stems from that, you know? Yes. It's like how like I mean, it would be great. I think if everyone understood that. Because I think we all start with a big ego.

Like that's why we started a company in the first place. Right. But it actually doesn't serve us. Like it's the ego that wants to be like validated and wants to be celebrated. And like, you know, there's another type of energy vampire that I caught. It's like the person who's always trying to teach you something. Like I didn't ask for this advice. And also like you haven't walked the path that I'm walking on.

And I don't know how to end this conversation, but you need to stop teaching you right now. You know, there's just a lot of those people or like, you know, they raise a bunch of money and they think like they believe that they've earned this authority to like start teaching you things and like telling you you should build your business a different way. It's like I don't need this right now. But yeah, there's a lot of that like I guess in the business community,

which is why, you know, I actively stay away from that right now. What do you think is the, it seems to me that the avenue of lived experience seems to be a much more fruitful environment than the level of the classroom. I'm not saying we don't need both, but it seems to me that if you can speak to someone who has gone through the lived experience, then, I don't know, I guess. sometimes a teachers can have lived experience, but what do you think is, is when you look at the horizon of education in the future, and you look at yourself and other people you know who have kind of bootstrapped themselves up and found ways to make things happen versus someone that's going to school now and trying to learn how to be an executive, are those just two different paths? Or do you see those merging or you see education kind of falling away in some ways? I mean, our education system is completely broken. Totally. Like, why do we have? have to learn calculus in high school, I'm not sure, right? Like, why are we not learning sales and financial literacy and, you know, like the basic things that allow us to make a living? I'm not sure. So I think from that perspective, like our education system has never, like has not,

I don't want to say never, because I'm not up to date, has not really been updated to educate us to be independent in life. And that's a problem, right? And maybe some universities that are more specialized or are also doing that. And I think there are certain things that, you know, you must need an education for. Like if you're going to be an engineer or, you know, a software developer or a doctor, like, of course, right. But if you want to be an entrepreneur or if you want to be, you know, in sales, right, like there's not, like, if you want to be like a financially literate person and not take out a whole bunch of loans. like that's not there there isn't much education i think that's around that and i think that's

really unfortunate and i think even if you i think even if a school offers like entrepreneurship and business it's like a it's like a minor right it's like a series of courses it's not like a major that you take and right now my partner's son is is in university and his his younger son is about to go to university next year so he's like looking at programs like this and there's really nothing that allows him to learn what we do. And, you know, that's, you know, I think that that, hopefully that that will change. But I definitely think that, you know, there's a discrepancy between the education that are,

you know, that are kids and teenagers and young adults are being taught today versus what is required to build like a fruitful, like, rich, like independent life. Yeah, I wish that in school they would teach our relationship to fear and how to overcome it, you know, how to take risks that make your life worthwhile. It seems to me that at least in the Western school and the public schools I went to, was built on this tradition of you sit down and in front of an authoritarian figure, you're trained like a Pavlovian dog with all these bells and whistles, you've got to ask for permission and all these things.

But it seems to me if we had a small, And I'm sure if there's, we need money and stuff like that. But I'm just saying it seems to me a better model might be smaller groups and inviting people to talk about their fears and walking towards the edge of the cliffs and, you know, just doing some things where you could show people like, yeah, you could fall right there. What would you do if you did fall? We're actually going in the opposite direction. I don't know if you know, right? Like there's like, I mean, maybe it's a private school thing, but like my friends' kids, like they removed homework and grades. and report cards.

And like all the way up to high school, it's like, I forgot the word for this type of education, but I'm like, what if they go to another school where there are provincial exams? Right, how are they going to adjust that? How do they apply for university? Right? Like they're actually actively removing fear in competition

from schools now because they don't want to make people feel bad. Right. And actually, like Lloyd Lobo and I talk about this a lot, is like, What is the next generation going to be when you can't compete, right? When you remove competition, like, where is the resilience going to come from? Right. And I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you that every time I've hired a young

person, it's never worked out because they've either ghosted me, like goes to the company and just didn't decide not to show up one day. Or, you know, they come, you know, into a roadblock and they didn't want to continue because, you know, it was too hard. it's insane. So we're actually going in the other direction. And I don't know where, like, I think we're already seeing some of the effects of that, but like, where are we going to be in five to ten years?

I have no idea. But I'm like really as an employer, like seeing and really feeling the effects of that right now. And it's, I think it's really unfortunate. And I think it's, it's, I don't know, man. It's just like a function of maybe a. removing some of that fear, both in the education system and also at home and in society. Yeah. I think sometimes what do you think about the relationship between fear and unrealistic expectations? Sometimes it seems to me like the younger generation is like, why even try? Like,

how the hell am I supposed to buy this million dollars? I'm 18. Well, why I try when I could just be an influencer and I could just sell a photo for a million bucks, right? Right, right. Everyone's trying to be an influence. Some people make it. Actually, like, my friend's son, like, I think he got into it pretty early, but he was really good at this game. He never went to college, but like he just started streaming, like himself playing this game, but he was really good at it. And in anything you do, you have to be like the top 0.1% and he was that person. And then he started like building an audience on YouTube and like he just now commentates on games. And he is like so, so, so successful. And he's like 21 and lives in a group house and has like a super hot model girlfriend and like he's made it.

For now, right? For now. Yeah. This guy has more money than like maybe I can ever accumulate. Sure. You know, and it's awesome, right? But absolutely. He's one out of like millions of kids that I like actually do it.

You know, he works hard and his life is completely in the public eye. But on that note, I've actually lost my train of thought. What were you saying? We were just talking about fear relationships and the way in which the world's moving. Yeah, I think that I almost feel like we've made it okay to like to stop. How do I phrase this? Like we've made it okay to not be, I'm trying to phrase this in the right way. to not be offensive.

Like, it's okay to let go of your fears instead of overcoming them, if that makes sense. It's like, oh, I have this roadblock. Oh, it's okay. Don't do it then. You know what I mean? Like, and I, like, I hate using the word mental health because I do believe, like, that's a, that's like a real thing. Right. But sometimes it's not.

Sometimes you just like need to kind of overcome this thing. Like, I'll give you an example. Yeah, please. My C-O was going to have this conversation with this person we hired. And, like, we didn't know how to have this conversation with her because it's like, you know, she wasn't performing. It's been months. Like, and finally he, like, he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

And then finally he was like, okay, I got to have this conversation with her because she's just now creating work for me instead of taking it away. And it's hard, right? And small company, like, it's hard to hire. It's hard to have these conversations. and like he was like just kind of leaning it like leaning into her for like a couple minutes like like letting her know that like hey like you're not really you know hitting those expectations and like you said you would do this but it didn't happen and she was like I can't have this conversation

right now my mind's just not in the not in a good place I need to go that's so awesome this is not the first time this has happened by the way so you know like I feel like there's there's there's some of like okay well how you know and but then it's like well but then I don't want to not respect them so at which point are you like respecting you know this person that you're working with and at which point are they weaponizing it and that's a tough that's a tough line but I feel like the next generation is kind of heading that way this is something that no nobody ever talks about by the way this is like something that like with you thin business owners, like in my, in my group is like some of the things that we riff about.

It's just like, oh my gosh, like, are you being serious right now? The weaponization of fragility is a real thing. I love that. Right? I love that. It's true. You know what it's like? It's almost like sarcasm.

Like sarcasm is a way in which someone with no power can speak truth to people in power without them knowing. So too is fragility a way people can try to get to the people ahead of them without doing anything. Like it's like this weird sort of wordplay on guilt and emotions and stuff. But perhaps the answer to this is to bring back bullies. Like the more bullies out. Yes.

Yes. Like I got beat up by bull. A lot of times when I got beat up, sometimes not every time, but a lot of times I I was like, I probably deserve that. I was being kind of, I kind of deserved to get punched right there. They didn't kill me. They just punched me in the face. And I'm like, I haven't deserved that.

And I'll never forget one of the first time, the first time I ever got beat up, like in third grade. I had to, I got a referral. Me and the other kid, my friend Paula and Donno, we had to go to the principal's office. My dad came and picked me up. My dad said, what happened? I got in the fight.

Here's my dad's. Did you win? No. That was it. That was it. He took me, he took me to be a wrestler after that. Like the next week I started wrestling, and I wrestled like the next 15 years.

But that was his strategy. My mom's strategy, totally different. Come home. George, what happened? I got in a fight, mom. Well, George, you're a year younger than everybody in your class. And you know what? You're not going to be a really tall, large man.

And you're going to be younger than everybody for the next 15 years. So if you can't learn to fight with your words and win arguments before they end up in a fight, you deserve to lose. So from that point forward, like I got two. You need to learn out of move faster. Yeah, one of the two, you got to be fast. You're a little guy. You got to be fast. You got to be smart.

You got to be quick. You know, you have to be all these things that you're not. But that's what bullies do. Bullies teach you how to overcome obstacles, whether it's the kid that's taking your lunch money, whether it's the kid that's saying mean things to you. And ultimately, I think what happens from the kid that gets bullied is that one day he stands up to that bully

and the other kids see that. And then that becomes inspiration for them. Hey, it can be done. No one like that bully anyway. And there's something that happens when we remove those obstacles from kids at a young age. They no longer have this ladder of a sense. They no longer have this wellspring of courage that will help them make it to the next level.

So bringing bullies back. What do you think? I mean, I think like a bullies back then, you know, when you're talking about like taking your lunch money versus bullies now has like a different, it's just like a whole different vibe. Like people are really mean nowadays. And and I actually going back to our, you know, conversation about communication is like while a digital communication allows you to have built deeper, more meaningful. connections, it also allows people to be like pretty nasty. Yeah. And then it lives forever.

So I actually, I think that's where a huge problem is, is like, even when I when I do support, like I still do support for my software. Yeah. People are awful. Like they, they would never say that to me face to face. Like, imagine I was standing like at a cashier in a grocery store. They would never say half the things they say to me digitally. Right.

And I'm, I don't have children like for that reason. I don't want them to like live through this like digital age of having everything live forever and feel like they need to be someone else. And I think it's hard to be a kid nowadays. But I do believe that, you know, we need to teach people how to stand up for themselves in a way that's maybe less physically and verbally violent. But yeah, I don't know where the line is, right? Like with, you know, bullying versus like, you know, teaching somebody a lesson. because I do think that nowadays, like, technology allows us to be like a whole different category of, like, a bully. And having something live forever on the internet is just like a tough thing to have as a kid.

Yeah. Even as an adult. Yeah. Like, you have something like bad written about you, like it doesn't go away. Like as soon as an article goes out, like all these sites like start to clone it. Yeah. It's like a virus in a weird sort of way. Just keeps replicating, right?

But that's what makes people like a totally different, like, talking track here. That's what makes people so politically correct nowadays. Fear. That like it's a bit of, it's a bit boring sometimes to have these public conversations because everybody says what they're supposed to say versus, you know, what they really want to say, right? Which is why having these like kind of closed communities is, you know, inspiring and meaningful because you actually get to say, you know, what you really want to say. You know, and actually Lloyd and I talk about this a lot too. It's just like, you know, you interview

someone and you know and then they want a certain piece cut out because like the company didn't want that there and it just makes every conversation kind of similar right that's why like you know I'm like I'm like I'm always open and honest because I don't have any investors institutional investors I have some family friends investors but it allows me to say anything that I want yeah it's refreshing and I think that that brings us to the idea of authenticity and authenticity as as one of the last areas that speaks to people, I think,

because it is such a cardboard cutout. There is so much political speak. There is so much of this and that and do's and don'ts with the commas and without the commas, you know? And like, it's just this authenticity is something that I think calls to people. So when you can say what you want, regardless of the company you work for,

where you can say what you want, regardless of your sponsors or your inventors, or your investors, I think it gives you a breath of fresh air to everybody because I think on some level, everybody wants to say what's on their mind, but they are fearful of it, right? Well, I mean, I think it matters a lot if you're, you know,

trying to grow your company, trying to raise the next round, if you're a public company. Like, it does matter because what you say has a revenue impact. And you are responsible for your, you know, for your shareholders. But that's also one of the reasons why, you know, I wanted to bootstrap. I didn't want to, I mean, many reasons, but one of the reasons why it's like, I don't want to invite a boss that just tells me what to do because freedom is my number one priority. And then a lot of the things I actually write on on LinkedIn, like the private message that I get is like, you know, thank you for, you know, being so honest.

And, you know, I can really relate to this. You know, this is a lot of like raw, raw stuff that people just don't relate to. It's kind of boring, right? Oh, I've hired like 100 people and I raise all this money and everything's going great. great. Like everybody writes that. Like you're not writing that for your audience. You're writing that for, you know, perhaps the next investor to see. And then, you know, people to tell you're great. And then maybe they'll buy from you. So it's, it goes back to the to your question about creativity. Yeah. Right. Like it even goes down to the creativity you're able to express publicly in,

in your writing. Right. It's like if you fit into this cookie cutter, I have to write about things that only make myself look good, which, you know, I think brings a certain audience, but most people, I don't think, connects with that. So how do you, how do you balance the creativity experimentation with bootstrapping, you know, like that's, or, I mean, I guess you can have that authentic adventure if you are bootstrapping, but how to do you, you must lose some of that creative experimentation if you're taking investor money, right? Like, that's kind of what we're talking about. Yeah, I don't know the other side of the coin, right? Like I can only imagine because like if you look at a lot of stuff I write, I write, I never write with my brain.

I write from my heart. And that's how I'm able to write, to translate something. Like I don't reverse engineer and think, oh, I want people to think this. I want more people to react. Like I don't know if I put something out there. People are going to engage with it. But I write what I feel like writing. But I could only imagine that.

if I had someone watching me closely and I needed the next round of money to pay my staff that I would write very differently. Like I would almost try to manipulate, you know, what I'm writing because I want them to read it in a different way. Right. So, you know, I'm not a great writer, which is why I need to write like what I actually want versus reverse engineering something. So like I don't know what the balance is, but I can.

only imagine just from my own stuff that I write because I write a lot about my failures and things that didn't work. And I think, you know, people appreciate that a lot more. There's this trend, it seems, that I see on LinkedIn sometimes where people, I think there's a term for it, and I may get it wrong, apologize to the people that have the right term, but it's something along the lines of like building in front of everyone. Like you go on and you talk about. Yeah, build in public. Thank you very much for that. Like this is an amazing trend. I think it leaves breadcrumbs for other people who have ideas or are trying to do things. Like you're you're fundamentally leaving not only clues but like actual. This is I've bogged up right here. Look at this everybody.

Come look how dumb I am. Come over here. Let me show you about dumb georgias. You know what I mean? And like there's something's I find it. It makes me want to cry sometimes when I see it because I'm like, that's so beautiful. And thank you for failing right there. Like I'm going to use this in a way that is meaningful. So your mistake actually turned out to be something beautiful for me. And it takes a lot of It takes a lot of heart and courage to do that, right? Well, people don't want to be alone, right? And, like, actually, like, the kind of, like, news that these unicorns put out there, it's like cookie cutter news and posts and stuff.

It's, it makes me feel, and probably other people as well, alone, right? Like, I suck because all these other people are doing such great things and raising millions of dollars and hiring all the top talent. And I can't even get my revenue up. Like, nobody's going to. give me money. Right? So I think when you write about your failures, because everybody fails. Yeah. Right. Like how many investors do these people talk to before one investor gives them, you know, a lead investment and then some other investors follow? Like hundreds,

but nobody ever talks about those, right? Because you don't want to be seen as a failure. You can't. So I love putting out content that, you know, is authentic to my experience. I only write about my own stories because nobody can dispute them. Right. But it makes people feel less alone. And I love that, right? Because it is such a lonely journey. It was for me too.

Yeah. Like living in New York, everybody's like, oh, I'm awesome. And you go to every startup event and everyone's tell you how awesome they are and how much money they raise and how, you know, and then it makes you feel like you're not doing very well. And maybe you're not made for this thing. Right. So I think that's what makes, you know, what I put out there more authentic.

but I also want people out there to know that like what they're experiencing right now is normal, right? I don't know who goes out there and launches a startup and build it to a million dollars in 12 months. It does exist. Absolutely. But if you look at a lot of companies that do that, they've had previous successes. They've also had millions of dollars pumped into it. And they were able to buy revenue through relationships and ads because they had millions of dollars. invested. That is not normal. So I like I actually put posts out there that like breaks down. How many

months did it take us to get to a million dollars? And like from zero to 10,000, you know, 10,000 to 20,000, like how long it took like for each step. So like I think that's the kind of stuff that like people want to see. Yes. Yes. And yes. I'm often reminded of this quote that something along the lines of when the instrument becomes the institution, it no longer has the sharp edge to cut through. So something along those lines. I kind of butchered the end there. But when the instrument becomes the institution,

that's when the corruption sets in. And sometimes when we look at the way in which tons of money tries to create the illusion of like a startup, I remember there was a great book by John Curiaco called Bad Blood. And it talked about the young lady who was going to have this, she had this incredible startup. I think she was a billionaire. I just remember reading part of the story.

And she was going to take one drop of blood from this one drop of blood. Theranos. She is now in jail. I don't know why Adam Newman is not in jail, but she's in jail. What an amazing story of just like corruption and deceit and all these people behind the scenes, like creating this Steve Jobs cut out lookalike in some sort of way. But those people are psychopaths. They all are.

Like actually. Every one of them. Yeah. And then she like basically. like this whole thing broke down and then she still went to Burning Man like a week later and like took selfies with her boyfriend who told her I guess this is like her now

husband I'm like what? What is happening right now? I don't know it's all very weird but then there's more of those and that's not the end right? There's like a similar one like Frank or something recently where this like 20 some year old like made up this whole customer list

sold it to I have I want to say it's like JPMorgan or whatever, like one of these big companies. And then they found out that all the customers were fake. It's like you have all these Ivy League bankers on staff and nobody figured that out. And then she somehow also like was so crazy that she put herself on their payroll and got herself like $20 million a year in salary or something. It's like not like not only did you trick this company. You thought it was a good idea to be on their payroll and stay on their payroll, assuming they're not going to figure this out. Like you're so smart.

It's so crazy the kind of stuff that people come up with. But, you know, it, it sucks that this is the world that we live in because I think it does inspire the wrong things. It makes people feel like if I can tell a lie, then I will make a lot of money and be successful. Right. Like where do we draw the line? Like Adam Newman, like we were completely crumbled, lost so much money for so many people and goes out. to raise two massive rounds for different companies from top investors. What is what message does this send right to to founders?

Right. Like it just doesn't make sense. None of this makes sense. It sends the wrong. It just sends the absolute power corrupts absolutely. You know, I got a family member that investigates corporate security fraud and some of the stories they tell me. It's just it's the same stories like that.

It's just mind blowing to see what. what message is out there and the level of psychopathy. Like, these people are full-blown psychopaths on some level. And it's, it's kind of disheartening to hear. But okay, but if we switch it back to stuff,

I heard a really interesting story one time, too, that was I had a friend of mine that investigates corporate security fraud. And they tracked down this, they tracked down this guy who embezzled tons of money from, like, all his shareholders and all, like, these employees, like something crazy, like $100 million.

And the person tracks them down, they're investigating them and they're like they find him and he's when they finally get a hold of him on the phone he's with his race car team and like monaco or something right now and they're trying to grill him over the phone like you son of a bitch i can't how do you sleep at night you stole all this money from all these people what kind of a monster are you and the person was like you know first off i spent my life building this place i gave my family i gave every ounce of my soul my kids, my wife, my parents, everything I loved is gone. And all I had left was this. And I don't know about you, but you've probably never seen $100 million before. So if you gave up everything in your

life and you had $100 million sit on the table and you were staring down prison, what the hell would you do? Click. You know what I mean? It was like, well, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound so bad. You know what I mean? On some level, you can begin to understand the threads that tie together this thought process of like just burn the world man it's it's kind of crazy right i mean i i will never know what that feels like um me neither but i like i want to kind of bring this back to something that is relevant like i grew up thinking i needed that kind of well like really and not understanding what it is required to get there like people that build these massive companies like yes there's like a small percent that's fraudulent but there's a lot

they're not. And I don't think people really understand that when you have an ambition like that, that is your entire life. You don't, you don't have a normal life, right? You're in the public eye. You don't have relationships. Everybody wants something from you. You question all of your friends, right? That's why like when you know someone who's super rich, like they're really weird. Totally. Right? They're super guarded, right? Like they don't, they're very careful about what they say because who's listening, you know? So you have to want it so bad, so bad that you're, willing to give up everything for it. And I don't know what drives these people. And I had this kind of like come to Jesus moment, I guess, when I was in New York. And like that's kind of what I wanted

to strive for. But also understanding that like there's there's a difference between like having ambition and like understanding your capacity. Yes. Right. Like they they should be aligned ideally. Like your ambition should be a lot like a little bit higher, but not too much. If it's too much and you're just completely delusional. And I had a startup that was fine, but it was never going to get to that level. Right. And that was my previous startup.

So I had this like moment where I was like, okay, what, like, why do I want that kind of wealth? Do I want it? Or is it because I was told that that's the right thing to do? So it was kind of a big realization for me to realize that I don't want, that kind of wealth because I am not willing to change my life and sacrifice what is required to get there. And that's when, you know, I'm sure everyone's heard this term like lifestyle company where, you know, investors kind of like paint lifestyle companies as this bad word. And

if you want a lifestyle company, you're not ambitious and, you know, you should just go home. And that, but that's when I came to embrace the fact that I wanted a lifestyle company. I wanted a good lifestyle. I want to live and work at the same time. And it wasn't really until I embraced that, that I became okay with being a bootstrapper and stop wanting validation and raising capital and wanting to be in the cover of tech crunch. And that's when I started to meet other bootstrappers and then saw that, oh, you know what? Like if anything between zero and a billion dollars is called bootstrapping, like, I'm okay with that or like it's called like a lifestyle business. I'm actually okay with that.

You know, so like starting this company, I was, when I say I was more intentional about it, I was also more intentional about the goals that I set for myself, right? Like the financial goals that I set for myself to not be like delusional, right? I wanted, I knew I wanted a company that pays me and everyone involved a good salary, right? ideally like two times market salary, you know, I, I realize that I don't need to own all the nice cars and boats and airplanes. Like all of that, it's kind of meaningless, right? And the thing is, like, with the sharing economy, like, you can have a weekend in a castle in Italy and then never see it again. Like, how awesome is that? Right. I can drive a Ferrari for a weekend if I really

want it to and never own one and never have to put gas in it and like go service it. So we live in this economy in this world now where all those luxuries are possible at a fraction of cost. Right. So and I think that was like such a relief. You know, that was such a load off my shoulders to not try to get to something that I know I'm not made for. And I think a lot of people are not like that self-aware yet. Right? Because they just like they have this goal that like everyone wants to get to and they think they want it.

But like, do you know what's required? Like, to your point, like, people spend a lifetime getting there. And then a lot of times they don't get to enjoy it either. Yeah. Yeah. It's the regret. Like, there's a great book by Guy DeBoard. He's an old French philosopher.

I think the book is called The Spectacle of Society. And in that book, he talks about what we're seeing and what we're living through is this idea of being into having. and having into the illusion of having, into the appearance of having. And it's like, you know, in some ways, it's like, and once you start thinking about that all the way through, like all that's left is just to laugh because you're like, oh, yeah.

You know, of course I never had it. Of course it was an illusion, you know? And you just start laughing because you fought so hard for this dream that you wanted to get. Then you realize like, gosh, darn, I was being so silly. I should have just taken more time to tell this person I love them. I should have just taken a little bit more time to do this other thing, which brings me to this idea.

I've been talking to a lot of death doulas lately, and I think this is relevant. You know, and anybody who reads biographies will know this, people in their last days, they don't ever say, I wish I would have worked harder. They don't ever say,

I wish I would have had more money. They always say, we wish I would have been a better husband. We should have been a better father. We should have been a better mother. Oh, should have been a better sister. Like,

and if we can piggyback on that language, that may help people get to the realization that you just said that I don't think, I, the picture is just now coming clear in my mind where you know what it takes to own that dream? It's ridiculous, but you could participate in that dream. And what's the difference between owning and participating in it?

Sometimes it's so much more beautiful to participate in somebody else's dream than it is to try to control all of the dream. But I love what you said there. It's beautiful. Yeah, like so David, my partner, he loves to say this one thing, that like, you know, you love to own stuff until stuff starts to own you. Like, you know, like everyone's had that brand new car and you don't want to scratch it so you take up two parking spots. Right?

You have this like super expensive watch and you don't want to scratch it so you put your sleeve over it. Yeah. Or like I love like, you know, our grandparents, like they have this amazing leather couch and then like saran wrap it. Totally, totally. And then you're just sitting on plastic. You know, all this stuff that you own that you're like and then it starts owning you. Yeah. And it's so true, you know.

And someone once told me before, and he was like super successful. And he was like, you know, the only people who want all the nice things, like are the people that don't really have it. Right. Like they want other people to see it. It's not for them. It's for you. And ever since I heard that, I'm like, yeah, you're right. Like, you know, my dad collected watches and like, and he was one of those people.

Like, you know, on his death, but he was just like, I wish I didn't buy so many things. It's like we've been telling you all these years because he didn't have stuff growing up. He was poor growing up. So then he wanted to like, he was like a huge overcompensator for material things. He had all this stuff, all these super expensive watches that he kept in a safe in the bank. He never wore them. And now he left me some of those. And my mom won't let me take it out of that safe in the bank because I don't have a safe at home.

It's ridiculous. Right. And, you know, and he would give us these like expensive jewelry and whatnot. Like, and I used to, you know, I used to wear those things. But as soon as I heard that, I was like, you know what? Like, that's actually true. Like, I used to wear those things because I wanted other people to see it. And ever since I understood that, like, it just didn't really matter to me anymore.

And it's so liberating when you stop trying to own stuff. And really, like, what we spend our money on is experiences. And sometimes with our friends. And, like, those are the things. that we care about most. Like we'll spend so much money like to go somewhere, travel somewhere, staying a super nice hotel, go on an adventure. But like we won't spend money on like material things unless it's like our home.

Yeah. In some ways it echoes the humble bragger and the loudest barrel that we were talking about earlier. Right. And you don't even realize sometimes how dear or I don't even realize how dear I hold some of my ideas until I start looking back on the way in which my parents held their ideas. In some ways, it speaks to, in some ways for me, it speaks to the idea of, of patterns and self-responsibility, I guess, by looking, so I'm kind of going off topic a little bit right here, Melissa, but in some ways it seems to me that there's a generational pattern

that happens to us. And if we as individuals today can look back at the generation that came before, for us and see what their difficult things were, what they held on to, what they were good at, what they need to work on. If we can look at them as a lens, then we living today can fundamentally change the outlook of those tomorrow. We can radically transform our life by looking at the patterns of the people that came before us. And like, oh, they held on to this idea. Maybe I should learn from that. Because too often the patterns that are given to us are just things that we act at and we don't think about. It takes a lot of courage to look back and just share the story

that you shared with me. Hey, George, my dad's death bet, he held these things. Like, that takes a lot of courage to be open and say that about your family. But you can learn from that

because you have the courage to think about that from a unique perspective, right? Like, I think that there's a lot of people, myself included, that are beginning to see the problems of the people in our past as catalysts

for positive change in the future. Is that too deep out there? What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think it can go like kind of one way or the other. Sure. You know, like you could be like, I just become my parents. Or you can be like, I hate the way my parents are.

Like my parents are such hoarders. I hate going to their place. It is just full of stuff. They refuse to throw anything away. And I think it does come from like this mentality of lack. Sure. Right. Like I didn't, like luckily because of them, I didn't, you know, I didn't live in that.

You know, I didn't grow up with that mindset. because they provided everything for us. But because of how much I hate, how they hoarded everything and don't throw them away, I became super OCD about throwing things away. And like a crazy minimalist and not spending money on things, right? So I think it can, you know, work both ways. But, you know, it's all like, I guess it's all personality-based, right?

It would be amazing if we all learn from our past and, like, became better people. but I also want to recognize that. It's just easier to fall in the patterns, right? Yeah. Our patterns, our thoughts become us. They say your... My dad was like, if I die, don't throw away my collection of coins. It's like, you want a hoard after you die?

Like, I'm not even kidding. Like, he, like, wants to make sure that we do not throw any of his things away. It's like, but you're dead. Yeah, I don't get it. But that's how far, that's how deeply rooted this goes. that it is deep. It's interesting to think about the way in which we act out our lives and how so much we may be afraid of today

could be something that our great grandfathers or our great grandmothers were afraid of so long ago or it could be the fact that they grew up in this depression. So now all of a sudden, like I don't want to throw away any of the straws I get from McDonald's because I need both. I got to keep this ketchup packet, even though it's like four years old. That person we have to have to have an intervention for. It's fascinating to think about.

I know, how you do it on time? Unless, are you okay? Yeah, yeah. Epic. You know, one of my favorites. You did send me an invite, so I have that time blocked. I know. I'm just checking.

You know what I mean? There's an off ramp over there. I always want to point it out to people. You know what I mean? Like, hey, we're doing okay over here? I love this conversation. And I want to take a moment to maybe pivot into this idea of something I'm really fond of. I love the psychedelic experience.

And one of the reasons I love it so much is because it's really helped me deal with a lot of traumas in my life. You know, maybe 10 years ago, my son died. And when I reunited my relationship with psychedelics, it really gave me a new perspective on the way that the world speaks to us, through us. And ever since then, I've been able to kind of use psychedelics to see the world in a different way. It's helped my relationships. it's really helped me get a better understanding of what I want out of life. And as someone who has recently been to burning, man,

and as someone who may have a relationship with psychedelics, I'm curious to get your thoughts on psychedelics. What do you think? Yes. I would say yes to all those things. I mean, I don't know how, like, for listeners, you know, I don't know how, like, much they know about psychedelics. I guess it could be a t-shirt, but it can also be like just a straight-up fun thing.

Yes. I am not a huge fan of mushrooms. I used to be, but it just doesn't make me feel great. Like physically, it doesn't make me feel great. It makes me feel like super lethargic, but I know the impacts of it. And a funny story, actually, like when I was in New York, someone like gave me this, you know, microdosing was cool back then when I was living in New York. someone like gave me this you know micro dosing was cool back then when I was living in New York and she gave me this like microdosing bottle that she got from San Francisco from this hippie

I didn't know what microdosing was I was like reading up on it and it was like this stuff was hard to get you know like I'm not like I mean now I'm more in that community but you know back then I had no idea what I was doing I was curious about it and she gave me this like microdose droplet bottle and she was like oh I don't I'm going to Israel I don't want to take this with me here you it. And one of the first times David and I, like, did LSD in broad daylight, which is like really the only time you should ever do it is when I accidentally poisoned us with this dropper bottle because she was, I was like, I texted her. I was like, oh, so how many drops do we do? And I was like, I told David, I was like, hey, I was reading a lot about this micro dosing thing. Like,

do you want to try it this week and see what happens? And he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm down for it. And we were not very experienced with this stuff back then. And I texted my friend. I was like, hey, how many, so how many drops, you know, do I take? And she was like, oh, like 10. And so I was like, I went to take him like, okay, 10. And he's like, that seems like a lot. And I'm like, well, that's what she said.

So we're like in Chile at the time. And like right before we were about to go on this road trip with a friend. And so, you know, I give us like both 10 drops or whatever. I'm on a work call. He's on a call with his son. And I was on he texts me from across the hotel lobby. He's like, I'm getting really high. I'm like, yeah, so am I.

And I text my friend, I was like, so how many drops did you say? She was like, yeah, like 10 drops of full dose. So do you like two. So I just like accidentally gave ourselves like a full dose. And at that point, like you're committed. Guaranteed. And then I actually, the thought crossed my mind that I'm like, if I don't tell him, will he know this? Because I didn't, I never want to be wrong.

Right, right. Because I, wait, when he was like, oh, 10. seems like a lot. I'm like, no, no, no. She told me 10, so it's 10. So anyway, we ended up actually having like the best time because we've never done this in broad daylight. And apparently it's, you know, it is the only time you should do it. And our friend ended up doing the road trip, you know, driving for us. But that was actually one of the first times that we've ever been on it. But I mean, I think it's, I think I used to do a lot of like hypnotherapy, receiving it, not giving And I think all this stuff like psychedelics, you know, meditation, you know, hypnotherapy,

it's a different way to get to the same place, right? If you're not just looking to like have a great time to your friends, which is also great, you know, if that's what you're using it for. But I used to do it, you know, some of the stuff on my own and, you know, put on some music, turn off the lights and see what happens. And I want to say I have had my most creative ideas, you know, in those moments. But I was also able to, and maybe that's the point of this, also able to, in my toughest entrepreneur moments where nothing seems to be working, to be able to strip, you know,

my conscious mind, you know, all the doubts and all. all the fears and be, I guess, fully in touch with my own ability, if that makes sense, right? Like when you, when everything is against you in your conscious life and you just feel like you're not making it, everything sucks, you have no ability to make this go. And when you're in those moments and you use this as a teacher, you're able to strip all that bullshit away. Yeah. And be like, you know what?

Like, I am capable because I've done all this other stuff. And I am, like, I can overcome this. It is just an obstacle. And someone once told me, like, you can unlearn what you already know. And if you can align your subconscious mind as much as you can to your conscious mind, you are at your most powerful. Right. And I guess the toughest thing about doing these things is like, you forget those things.

It's a coming out of a dream, right? You feel a certain way. You feel really powerful in those moments. But as you come out of it, you forget that feeling. So you can be at your most powerful if you allow yourself to remember those feelings and how you got there. And it's almost like going to the gym, right? It's an exercise. And that's why sometimes it's helpful to journal in those moments.

It's helpful to record yourself in those moments because you want to remember that you, you are that person, right? Just because you're on psychedelics and you're not doesn't make you a different person, right? It's just how in touch you are with your own abilities and your power to do what you want to do. Right. So, and that's how I see it like from a perspective of like creativity and allowing you to be a better, maybe more at peace and a more powerful version of yourself. I think it's an amazing experience, right? And maybe not everybody wants 10 drops at the same time.

But start with two or three and get you there. I mean, like, and that's what I used to do. Nowadays, I have a lot less, I guess, time to, you know, get into those things. And, you know, living in Amsterdam, like I have a lot of friends that get into like, you know, ayahuasca ceremonies and, you know, those things that, like, I don't feel like I'm ready for. it has to call you. Like in a lot of ways, like I don't feel like I'm ready to really look at what's under the hood. Like, I feel like I'm on a role.

Like, you know, I'm doing this thing and I don't want to be disrupted in what I'm doing. And I know that like it's actually supposed to be the opposite of that. But I don't feel like I'm ready for kind of the next level. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on like, you know, how you've seen people kind of use as professionally. and maybe how, you know, it's helped you. First off, that's an awesome story. David sounds like an amazing guy. He's got an amazing girl.

You guys sound like an amazing team. I can't imagine, oh, shit, we did 10. You know, on a similar story, I was mixing like a full disclosure. No one should ever do this. This is totally stupid. Don't ever do this. I was mixing up like a gram. I had gotten like some powdered form of Ethelad,

which is like a derivative LSD. And I was mixing it up, right? Because I was going to put it in a liquid form and it was in a powder form. And so you have to research all these ideas like, why does everybody want to drop to be 100 mics? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to take like a crystalline format and put it in and try to distill it down so one drop is 100 micrograms? Like you need a lot of equipment for that. I don't have that. And it's kind of dumb anyway.

Like I'm going to take one drop. I have to get like a certain kind of dropper for that. Why don't I try it? Why don't I make like 100 milliliters? So I'll just, I'll just increase the amount of alcohol. and then instead of making it one drop, I'll make it 100 milliliters, right? Because it's way easier to measure.

And so as I'm thinking about all this stuff, I'm like mixing and I'm like, do-to-do-do. And I'm like, I should probably wear gloves. And then as soon as I said, I should probably wear gloves, I'm like, my heart just starts thundering. I get like this taste of like blood in my mouth. It's not blood, but it's all like tinny. And I'm like, oh my God.

I'm the dumbest person in the world. I'm touching this and like start losing control of like reality a little bit. Like, I should just throw everything away. Just get out of it. out of here. I start freaking out. And I'm like, okay, just calm down. Calm down, man. It's like two in the morning. It's calm down. Put this over here. Go lay down for a little bit. So I laid down for like a three or four hours and I finally were like, okay, okay, really clean. I feel pretty good about myself. I'm definitely awake. I'm definitely up, but I'm not cuckoo. Okay, let's go back and fix

this problem. So I fixed it. But this idea that you can take one or two drops and have it be a full dose or you deal with this chemical. It's so power, it has the power to transform reality instantly. And that is something that is spoken about in the spirituality books from here to eternity. It will be spoken about in Buddhist monasteries and Christian churches and, you know, from faiths all around the world. And it's life changing. I'm not saying that people should take this experience lightly.

I'm saying the opposite of that. But the powers that come from just one particular incident can fundamentally change the way you see yourself. And much like any environment, if you're going to build a relationship with any of these chemicals, you should obviously do your research. You should talk to people. You should spend more time in a library than you do using psychedelics

because that's how you learn how to use them. So that being said, I love what you said about the way in which it allows you to, remember who you are. It gives you this unique perspective. For me, it's almost a third person point of view of looking at my life where I am, where I was, and where I can go. In some ways, it reminds me of Martin Luther King's speech. I've been to the mountaintop because I feel like for a moment you get to go to the mountain top and look down. You can't stay there, but you can go up and you can look and you can be like, oh, crap, I started way over there. I started way over there. I was

at the bottom and now I'm up here. You know, you get so excited. And then you're like, okay, okay, where am I going? Oh, God, I'm going over there. And the trick is to not be, you know, death by astonishment because everything around you seem so marvelous. But if you can focus in these environments, you go to the mountaintop, you can look where you were. Be excited that you've made it somewhere.

Be excited for the progress that you've made and make sure that you reward yourself for the journey. Look where you are. Okay, where are you going to go from there? If past relevant behavior is their best predictor of future behavior, then understand the trajectory you're on is either a good one or it's one you need to change. But that is very difficult to do when you're conditioned by the daily cycle of life. Get up, go to work, come home, get up, you know.

Whenever we find ourselves conditioned by our daily times, it's very difficult for us to see the progress we're on. So for me, I think psychedelics echo what you were speaking about, this ability to transform our lives in a powerful way and present. ourselves with who we really are. We're so much more than a race from the hospital to the graveyard. And for a long, for myself, for people in my family and a lot of people I love,

it's very easy to get caught up in that rat race. And I think so many people that have creative powers and creative ability and want a better life for themselves are caught in that cycle. So psychedelics can be a profound way to get yourself out of that cycle. That was a long rant. I tend to do that sometimes. So I apologize for that.

But I'm passionate about it, Melissa. I mean, I think it also, like, gives you so much clarity about the things that are important and the things that aren't. You know, like, we do a lot of things because we think we have to or someone told us or like it's the right thing to do. And when you strip away all those expectations, right, which is really what psychedelics do, you see everything in its purest form. And you're like, actually, I don't care about all that stuff. Like, just stop doing those other things, right? And focus on this thing. And that's a clarity that I love.

And before David, like, I would do this on my own. Yeah. Like, I love the self kind of journey of, like, just going through it on my own. But since I met him, it's become a more social experience because he just can't do anything on his own. Like, he literally can't do anything on his own and definitely not this. So I have my moments where, like, we are doing this kind of for fun, but I secret. in my mind. I'm like, okay, this is the answer that I'm seeking.

And I don't tell him about it because he just hates it when I like go into my own cocoon. He like feels lonely. And he's super fun, which is why he needs to be doing all these experiences together. But yeah, it's just every time I do that, you know, and, you know, I don't get many experiences or much time now, you know, to go into those things. but every time I come out of it with more clarity and more confidence. Yeah. And that reminds me that maybe I need to do it again soon. Yeah, you totally do.

You totally do. Well, you were just recently at Burning Man. I'm sure you were surrounded by people that were living in that environment for quite some time. Right? I mean, Raining Man. No, raining man. It's raining man. I actually, yeah.

Yeah, like, I mean, this, this burning eye was so much more about survival than it was about, like, just going out there and blowing your mind. I would say that I'm more exposed to it just being, like, in Amsterdam. Yeah. Like, that's just what people do. Like, it's what people care about. And they have retreats. Like, they actually have, like, you know, retreats that are built for this thing. And they invite, it's like a three-day thing.

It's like an executive retreat. So it's like a real thing there. And every month there's like ayahuasca ceremonies that are like, you know, 10 to 20 people. And there's like shamans and stuff that are like, everything's guided. So it's like done a very professional way. I've never been exposed to that until like I didn't think it was like, you know, like an everyday thing. Like everybody accepts it. Like that's what I mean until I, you know, went to the Netherlands.

But, you know, I think it should be. But yeah, I would say like I'm more, I'm more educated. about that now, not because of, you know, going to Burning Man and those type of events, but actually, like, living in a country where all of that is, like, pretty normal. Yeah, you live in the Mecca right there. There's, there's a great school called, I'm probably going to put you that, Maastriac University. They just have, like, it's like, it's just this giant university of geniuses that go there. And they're doing a lot of work on psychedelics and how, what the intersection of psychedelics and technology are. In fact,

Zeus, if you're listening to this, you should reach out. to Melissa because she's awesome just like he uses. I'll talk to you guys later offline, but he's doing some fascinating work where he's integrating the ideas of the psychedelic experience into augmented and virtual reality. And like I got to, you have to talk to this guy. He's so amazing. He grew up with like this voodoo background, you know? And so he's like when we were talking about this intersection of psychedelics and technology,

he's like, what I'm saying, George, is that in the future, you may have to. have a substance that prepares your mind for this new experience. Like he talks in such an awesome way. It's just so beautiful and poetic. The ideas he was talking out are coming from Amsterdam right where you are. And they're one of the only schools that's actually working with people because they don't have the limits that so many of other schools have. Do you have any thoughts on what the future of psychedelics and technology could be?

I mean, there are so many. I mean, I guess states probably. countries that are trying to legalize some of this stuff for like research purpose at least right or like medicinal purpose i mean i think we're a long ways from like the general public kind of accepting that i think like you know we've all been brainwashed you know with the war on drugs and we categorize it's like there's like lSD or like crystal myth you know like totally totally yeah it's just like what those who are like not the same thing um i remember like david was filling out this insurance policy, a questionnaire.

And it was like, have you ever done drugs? And then it's like a list of drugs. And it's like ketamine, heroin. It's like, how are those two things the same category? You know, like you check one of these things and you'll never get a policy again. Totally. But that's how I think most people categorize it because it's like Hollywood, right? Or, you know, whatever propaganda of the news sets.

It's like you're like one snort away from being homeless. Don't believe any of those things. I don't know. I think that I wish more people would explore, you know, this avenue. You know, not just kind of, not just as a way of understanding themselves, like, which is what we're talking about. Like, it's just like for health reasons, you know. I have a friend that's a surgeon in New County. Castle, not White Castle. White Castle is the burger joint. Newcastle. And, you know, it's in the UK. And there's not much to do there. And people drink a lot. And he was like, like, he was like, I wish I could tell people to stop drinking and just do psychedelics. Because their bodies are so messed up from how much they're drinking. Like in their teens even. Yep. Like he's like livers are like three times a size. Right. Like these people are not going to live past 30.

And so I wish that, you know, I think alcohol is the most unhealthy and most dangerous drug, right? Like, I drink, you know, socially, but like heavy, heavy drinking is, like, really bad for you. I think, like, probably most people die from alcohol than, like, absolutely. Like, those kind of, like, soft drugs, right? I don't, I don't know anything about heroin. I don't, I don't recommend taking it. But those two, those are not the same, right?

There's not, I think I just, I wish more people would, would use it, you know, not just in a way to learn more about themselves, but also like for recreational purpose. But how it, like how it's, you know, where the intersection is with that and technology, like, I'm actually not sure. Like, I'm not really seeing the intersection right now. I think it would be super cool if somehow you could like record your experience. Yeah. Like, I don't know what that was. That was almost like recording a dream, you know? Yeah.

And that would be, that would be epic. Like if you could just like download your experience. Or if you could, I don't know anything about science or biology, but like, you know that feeling you get the one that we're talking about where you feel powerful and confident. Right. Like I wish there was a way where you could record that like biologically and have a way to get there again. without going on a 10-hour journey. You know what I mean? If it was like a chemical balance thing.

Totally is. Right? That would be amazing. Right? If we could have like a customized drug, it's like the limitless thing. Yeah. I love that movie.

If we could have like a customized version of that because that's our chemical makeup and that's where we want to get to and that's how we get there. Like that would be pretty epic. That would be amazing. I interviewed this author David Walton who wrote a series of books called Living World. And it's a science fiction book about a about dinosaurs on the earth that communicated through pheromones

and how much better of a language it was than the language we use today in words. And it was this, it was a hierarchy of women dinosaurs that ruled the world. And they communicated all through pheromones, but they communicated confidence. They communicated fear. And in some ways, it sounds to me like, maybe there's something to be said about these pheromones and psychedelic states. And it's fascinating to think about finding a way to record this feeling or this dreamlike state that you could then be part of or share with other people. In some ways, you know, maybe the drugs are the software and we're the hardware. Like if you look at alcoholism and the way alcohol, look at all the ideas we create running on alcohol.

If we look at our species running on alcohol, we come up with a lot of violent ideas, the same way a drunk person wants to fight all the time. But what if we ran on the software of psychedelics, like mushrooms or LSD, might we have something more like the 60s, where we ran a little bit more on our ideas, radiated love, or ideas radiated creativity, you know?

And I don't know. I think on some level, we are the manifestation of what we take in. And if we're running, if we can agree that most societies run on chemicals or drugs drive from plants, we should stop, we should really stop making alcohol, like the very driver of our ideas.

Because so much of our, so much of what we're doing seems to not be working. And if that theory worked at all, it'd be much better to be run it on mushrooms or psychedelics or, I mean, we are, like, if you're looking at us as,

like, hardware and say drugs is like software that, like, you know, changes the hardware. Like, we're already doing that through, like, vitamins or,

you know, like I have a, friend who's just like a crazy body hacker and like he studies all this stuff and like he could go to a three day festival and not sleep like I'm not saying like that's like a really good thing but he like his whole idea is when you're doing all the stuff and partying and having fun with your friends and taking all the stuff like your body is depleted of certain things like certain vitamins and he has a whole massive like vitamin regimen that he takes before during and after and that allows him to have energy for like three days. And like, and to the point where like his gift,

you know, to in the last vessel that we had was like he made these custom little pouches with like 15 vitamins in them. And he would just like give them to people. So that like, you know, yeah. And it's all. And it works. You know, so we're already doing that in, in different ways. Right. And maybe one day we'll, we'll get there to change our minds or run our body. on something like a bit more psychedelic than vitamins. We may never see that day in our lives, but I hope we will. Yeah, me too. I feel like we live in such an incredible time.

And when I think about psychedelics and getting our time back and the creator economy, you know, something that you and I both do, our podcast hosts, you have your own podcast. And I was reading a recent article that you had spoken about, about the way in which you've harnessed the power of the podcast. You tell the story of, maybe I just said you tell the story. Maybe you can tell your story

about how you developed e-webinar, your business strategies, and what you think podcasts are today and moving forward. Yeah, so I had, I mean, I did season one of a podcast called Profit Led. And the whole idea was,

I mean, my whole, like, vibe right now is to, let entrepreneurs know that they can bootstrap a company and be successful. And that success is self-defined. Like that is like the whole thing that I'm advocating for. So my season one of profit led is really interviewing other bootstrap founders and strategists to share stories and ideas of how they've done it. But actually the primary reason why I wanted to start that podcast was because I wanted to,

I wanted a side project. I wanted a creative side project that was not related to my software. Because software, I don't know if most people know this if they're not in software, is like, it's not tangible, right? So you're not feeling success for a long time. You're actually just getting into debt for a long time. And I've only started paying myself in the last two months and like not a real salary. And I've been doing this for four years.

So, you know, I wanted something that I could feel success from that was like a product that was like tangible. And I wanted to learn how to run a podcast on my own. Like everybody was trying to sell me podcast services. And I'm like, I'm just going to learn how to do it on my own. Yeah. They were charging like one to two thousand per episode. And I'm like, let me try to figure this out. So that was like the primary reason.

And of course, like the secondary reason is like I wanted to get my name out there, build credibility. Like there is nothing that builds more credibility than a podcast or a video. But the best thing about a podcast, is you can listen to it in two-time speed, in the gym, on the way to work, when you're walking along the street. Like, I've always been a consumer of podcasts, and I love how easy it is.

And, you know, and it's almost like a low commitment, you know, it's low commitment content. And there's a lot of great content out there. Yeah. So, yeah, and of course, like, when you hear someone speak or when you see their face, I think it changes that relationship. And we talk about, like, meeting, like, meeting friends, quote,

friends having never met them, like having never meet them in real life. I think podcasting and videos is kind of the best way to do that. So as it relate to my business, it's kind of like, you know, an indirect, you know, marketing channel. And of course, I put, you know, an eWebner ad, you know, in the middle. But actually, along the way, I realize by running this podcast that there's so many business interviews out there. Like, I'm not talking like this. conversation we're having because it's like business slash lifestyle but like you know I invite like a business guru a tech guru and I interviewed them on how they became successful like there's so many out there and then I I realized halfway through this podcast that I was just like just a number and I was not

as good of a host as all these other hosts I've been doing it for years and the reason I also capped it at like 15 episodes is because I wasn't sure if I wanted to commit to it but at the same time I was you know writing on LinkedIn like four to five times a week writing my own experience stories of bootchrapping three startups. And I realized just from feedback of the content that I put out there on LinkedIn, how little authentic, like real relatable content is out there about building companies. So actually my next season, which I'm going to start recording soon, is actually about our journey to a million.

Nice. And I'm just going to create our own content. There's no interviews. And myself and my CFO, who's actually the first person I started helping me on on EOBenabinar, is just going to talk like about one topic per episode on something that we did. So it could be like pricing mistakes or like how we came up with a name or like, how do you recruit someone without any resource, right? Or like, you know, customer horror stories or, you know, how long it took us to get to a million.

Like every episode will be one specific topic on our journey to a million. And I feel like that's actually the content that's missing, not like. more tech guru interviews. So that's kind of like, and I actually believe that like most founders, if they don't have any money to spend on marketing, like if they're not leveraging podcasts as like a marketing channel, like a lot of them are kind of free, free podcasts, then they're missing out on a huge, you know, audience. So actually in the past year, I've been on, I think I've been on like 100 podcasts just in

the last 12 months. But yeah, I mean, as it relates to my business, I'm actually not sure. like revenue wise. Like a lot of people say like, oh, you do this thing on LinkedIn or you do this thing on podcasting. Like how much revenue do you attribute? Like if I only did things I can attribute revenue to,

I'd be doing nothing. Right. Right. Like it's just you never know where and when someone's going to hear about you. You can only be there, you know, when they might be there. So I think a lot of my life is like spent on,

you know, creating content. Yeah. It's, I have a unique view. and I echo some of the same things. When I think about podcasting, only recently have I begun to see it,

not only as a product, but as a service. And when I look at it from that angle, I'm like, it just does so much. It's branding. It's marketing. It is an educational device. Like, it's all these things. And if you can get really good at it,

I think that those can all be branches that come off of it. You can have this one vehicle. It's like, hey, why don't you get in? I'll take you a little ride over. Let me show this little educational thing. Jump in. I'm going to take you a little bit of it. here, I'm showing you this marketing part of it.

But it's, I think it speaks to the idea of the creator economy and these new things that are beginning to emerge and the, the branches of revenue that come from them. Like it's, it's, it's really exciting to think about where we are. And it's kind of, the creator economy seems to be at the forefront, like the leading edge of what is possible. Do you think so? Yeah, I mean, that comes back to the idea of control, right? Yes, absolutely. And, you know, all these creators used to be in corporate jobs.

And they were really good at what they were doing. And they built an audience. A lot of them did it early on, but it's still possible right now. Like the best data start is today. But they're capitalizing on their experience. And that's awesome. Right. I love soul entrepreneurs and creators.

Like I wish I was a solo entrepreneur. Like I wish I didn't have a company with 10 people, you know? Like if I were to do it again, like that's what I would be doing. like what can I capitalize on that's just me, myself and I. But I think it's awesome that like technology allows for that. But you know, I don't take that lightly because it is so, so hard to build an audience. Like when you, if you build it, they won't come. You know, like you have to, you have to go and find these people.

Like I don't know how, like, how long have you been doing your podcast for? I've been doing it for five years. And I just yelled out under the wind for so long. Like, hey, everybody, look at me. I got some cool. What was your intention for starting it? And how has that changed over time? First off, thank you for asking.

I think my intention at starting it was trying to prove to myself that I'm better than I was, that I'm original and that I want, I can help people in ways that I'm not doing now. And that resonated with me because I wanted, I felt like I was wasting part of my life. I felt like I'm really good at this job I was doing. I was a UPSR for 26 years. And I really enjoyed the communication and the people. But I couldn't, part of me began to die inside when this new world emerged of COVID

and unrealistic production standards and watching my friends get hurt and then watching no one stand up. and something began to die in me. And maybe it was something developing inside of me. But it was this need to try and reach out and show people like, hey, I wanted to be the change that I wanted to see in the world. Because I tried to tell everyone, hey, you should do these things with your life. But that didn't work. And so for me, I was like, I got to be the change.

I got to be the person that does it. So when I started off, it was me just trying to create some change in my life. And the more that I started, I started off with just like some solo rants and investigating magnets and like, hey, watch what this magnet does over here. You know what I mean? And I did some cool experiments where I would, I took some seeds and I exposed. I tried to grow mushrooms with like seeds that were exposed to the North Pole of a magnet and see if those grow better, you know. Just some stuff I would do around the house anyway, but I started putting it online. And then after a while, I started doing book reviews.

And then after a while, a PR firm reached out to me and they were like, hey, we noticed, you. doing a lot of book reviews. We'd like to talk to one of our authors. And I was like, absolutely. And then that started this new flow of like all of a sudden, people started reaching out to me from like an Ivy League school, like this like Joseph Sassoon from Georgetown, like his publisher reached out. I was like, would you like to interview Dr. Sasson? I was like, absolutely. So then and then all of a sudden people started sending me free books. And I'm like, two people are sending me free stuff, man, telling my wife you just sending me free books. You know, and then I would read their books. And I would go out of my way to like read their

book and like and have all these notes in the call and be okay no one's ever asked him this question before i'm going to ask him this question because i bet you this is how his dad thought and i bet you if i ask him about that his dad that i'll bring about an idea that maybe he wants to talk about so i'll just go in depth and try to think of things that no one else would ask and then from there it turned into yeah i have like 10 followers 100 followers you know a thousand followers and it just kind of snowballed into there and then it it it's it's It's really, you know what, you had said something to me in a previous engagement that really speaks to me because you said, George, as a podcaster, as your solo gig, that must be really hard. Like, you're the only person out of like 500 people that's ever said that to me.

And it is. In some ways, it's believing in yourself when no one else will. But my message to everybody out there is that's what it takes. When everybody tells you you can't do it, when no matter what, no matter how hard it is, just believe in yourself when no one else will. and I promise you, the world will unfold in front of you the way it's supposed to. So for me, it's transformed into this thing that I do daily. I try to do eight podcasts a week. I try to package it to the people I'm talking to as a vehicle, as a product and as a service.

And I feel the podcast. This is it. This is it. This is it. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. How many people are able to get there?

Yeah. I get it. And are you making money off sponsorships or like donations? I took a second on my house. I've been doing for five years. I took a second on my house about seven months ago. And I'm pretty much funding everything through that. I do get donations from people.

And some people will pay me a little bit for ads. But I had to go get those ads. It wasn't like I sat around and waited for people to get them. I'm like I have my, I got through transistor, which is my platform. and they allow for dynamic ad insertion. I highly recommend it for people that are looking to do it. But no ads are going to come. You have to go chase down the ads.

So if I talk to someone that's doing a book, I'll be like, look, why don't you pay me 50 bucks or 100 bucks and I'll mid-roll it? Or why don't you do this? But the models out there, if you're willing to create the model, the model's out there for you to create. And especially now in this landscape where it is the creator economy, you can make the rules. There's no set rules right now.

So it's kind of this blue ocean strategy where you can, hey, these are the rules. How do you know? Because I made them up. That's why they're the rules. Yeah. I mean, someone was told me like if when someone says it can't be done, what they're really saying is I've never seen it done before. Or I can't do it.

And yeah, or I can't do it. And I think that's like it used to bother me when people say those things, right? But it doesn't anymore because I just don't care what people say. I love it. But it also takes it's like an exercise, right? It's like being in sale. I've been in sales for a long time. So it's like not caring about what people.

people think is a muscle that you need to work out. And it still hurts a little bit. You know, it's just how long you let it impact you for. And you definitely should not change your own path based on what someone else thinks you're capable of. Because they don't know. They have no idea. Yeah. And I think that that's where resentment begins to build when you allow someone else to tell you what you can and you can't do and you start believing them. That's where the seeds of resentment begin to plant themselves. It's hard not to believe them sometimes because you're not successful. Oh, God, I know.

Right? It's like, well, there's just validating what I already think about myself. This is actually one of the reasons I stopped talking to my parents for a while because they were so negative that I just couldn't have them, like I couldn't talk to them and have them tell me that I should just go get a job. Like it's like I've already told myself this Many times a day

I tell myself that I can't do it And then when you check it You tell me that I can't do it And that's really tough Yeah You know and even if they're your parents Like sometimes you just have to like Either you just choose not to talk about that stuff to them

Or in my case I just had to stop talking to them for a while Like it was just like Just a negative dark hole that I was in But yeah, like if for, but then for anyone who kind of like triumphs over that, like it is. Yes. So liberating. Like you're so glad that you didn't give up in the moment that you, that you were supposed to because giving up is the easy thing to do. And that's why most people don't do this.

If it were easy, everybody would be doing it and you wouldn't be special. Yeah. There's a real point where your relationships are called into question. Like, what are you doing? Are you doing the right thing? Who are you doing the right thing for? Is this, is this, you want it that bad? Is it you that wants it?

Who wants it? You know, like, you have to ask some really deep questions about what's right for you and your family. And, you know, when I look back at some of the decisions I've made, one of the, one of the most beautiful things that I tell myself and I, I see happening is that I don't want my daughter to grow up and be in a position where she has to go work. I can tell her everything in the world. But I don't want her to be in a position. If she wants to work for someone, that's fine. But I want her to be in a position and have somebody who had the courage to strike out and make it on their own. Because that's what I want her to do.

And if I tell her, you can do it, but I'm not doing it. Then I'm sending the wrong message. I want her to see somebody that can do it. And in doing so, even if I go back to doing other things, at least she sees her father, the man, one of the men she loves in her life, following his dreams and his passion. because that's the kind of guy I want her to be with, you know? And so I think that what we do in our lives. Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, that's awesome. So, yeah, now look at me. I'm talking about my family and ranting about all my personal problems. Thanks, Melissa. It's a fascinating conversation, Melissa. I'm super thankful for all of our time today. Do we cover any, do we cover anything that you, we did not cover anything that you wanted to cover? I think, I think we've covered.

probably a wider set of topics I thought we would go into. But I guess that's the point of this podcast, but it's just like, let it flow. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I really, that's the point of the podcast, is just to get to know people and have an honest conversation that people can listen to.

And whether they're in the gym or in their car or in a truck or their car, something that people can talk to. I think the real heroes are the people that are out there every day making it happen, whether you're, you know, whatever you're doing, you're making it happen. And I think that these conversations at the forefront are the most important conversations for people to listen to, especially in this time where the pace of change is happening so quickly and that the world is changing all around us.

The truth is that the hero is the person that gets up and is out there doing it every day. People like you, Melissa, you're the hero. Thank you. Well, I think if you're going to take anything away from this podcast, it's just like, just do you. Yeah. You know, like whatever you want, like life is so short. Even though it's the longest thing that we have, it's still pretty short. Because you never know, like, how many more days are left.

And like, don't waste time being in someone else's box if you don't want to. And it is totally okay. Yeah. If you derive joy from that. Like my brother is the complete opposite of me. He has a nine to five. He's ambitious within that, you know, corporate realm. He wants certain things, but he won't go out and get it, but that he's okay with it.

He, you know, has a wife, no kids. They know exactly what they're going to do every weekend. Two vacations a year. Like, he's very, very structured. He'll probably be happier than I will ever be in my life. But, you know, like, he's cool with that, you know? Like, he doesn't want to go and, like, start a company and do his own thing and have a podcast. Like none of those things give him joy.

Right. So like the message I want people to to take away, you know, really from any conversation, it's just like, just do what makes you happy. Right. If someone comes to you and says you should start a company, like, and that's not what you want to do, don't do it. If you don't want to quit your corporate job, if you love the structure and the security and the benefits, like you should do that.

Yeah. Because being an entrepreneur is going to take all of that away from you. And some people are just not fulfilled by that, right? Like the thing that I care about is freedom, but everyone defines freedom a different way, right? Freedom to my brother is having, you know, 30 days of year, you know, paid vacation and being able to, you know, do the things he loves every day in the same city and knowing exactly what he's going to do every weekend.

Like, I'm never going to understand that, but like, it's totally cool that that's the way he chooses to live his life. Yeah. And I think it, Alan Watts has a good part where he talks about, you know, prickles and goo. He says, some people are prickly and some people are goo. But the prickly people need the goo because how do you know what you are, right? Those are the exact words I was looking for. I knew it.

Yeah. It is. It's beautiful to see the way in which other people live their life because it gives you a window into what you like about your own life and what maybe you don't like about your own life. And so too are those other people mirrors for us and stuff. Do you have any book recommendations, Melissa? Like what are you reading or do you have any books that people might want to check out? Yeah.

So the book I always recommend that is not a business book in this, you know, in this context is the Alchemist. Hmm. By Paula Coelho, one of the best books I've ever read. Probably will be the best book I ever read. I've read it like 20 times at different points in my life. And I get something else, you know, it. But it is the ultimate, you know, the ultimate story of how a boy leaves his home to chase after his dreams and what happens kind of along the journey. And, you know,

eventually he gets what he wants, but not after a few obstacles. But it's just beautifully written. It's short all ages. And the, if it's business related, the presentation secrets of Steve Jobs is the one. Like if you were to never read a business book again, this is the one. Like it is all about, like he didn't write it. Carmine Gallo did, but it is an incredible study of communication and how to align what you want to say with what you want to be heard. And it's not, it is an, it's, it's a technique that I use not only.

business, but also, you know, in my personal life as well. Because I think a lot of times that's where friction comes in, right? What is what you're saying is not what's being interpreted. And that is, you know, how apparently Steve Jobs sells all his products. Communication, it's such an interesting thing. And it brings up this other idea that I was talking to some people about recently. You know, when I look at the. English language. I see like a letter is part of a word. Word is part of a sentence. A sentence is

part of a paragraph. A paragraph is part of a story. A story is part of a book. A book is part of an encyclopedia. You know, there's this linear fashion that we're taught to speak in. And in some ways, I think that the way we speak is the way we think. And we see so much linear thought of people, I'm going to do this and then this and then this and then this. In some ways, I'm curious to get your thoughts on. Do you see us, I kind of see this, and this idea of speech being paired with imagery now is kind of evolving our language. And I'll give you an example, like Adobe Premiere or Convo or any of these AI images, they're allowing you to do text to imagery now. So in some ways, it seems to me that what we're seeing is this evolution of speech happening.

And I bring it up because it speaks to the idea of communication. If you and I have different definitions of a word, we can talk all day. long, but our definitions are different, thus our communication is somewhat hindered. However, if we have images that go along with the words we're speaking, might that convey a more fuller, better message? Do you, is that making sense? Do you see that as a way moving forward with communication and images? Yeah, I mean, I think definitely in like business context, you know, that's, I mean, that's

why we have PowerPoint. Yeah, right. And slide X, right? Like we're visual people, right? Yeah. Like there is, I think there's very few things that inspire, like, emotions. Yes. Then, like, an image.

And actually, like, I learned this recently about one of my best friends that she can't imagine. Like, there's like a thing, there's like a word for it. Like, she can't visualize images in her head. I can't imagine that. Yeah. So she doesn't. daydream. Like she doesn't have memories the way that we do.

Like if I was like, oh, remember like last Sunday we were here? Like she cannot picture it ever again. It's so weird, right? Wow. Yeah.

So some people actually like, yeah, she doesn't daydream. She doesn't remember any of her dreams and she can't recall visual memories. That breaks my heart a little bit. Yeah. There are people out there like that.

Yeah. So I think that's where it really helps. But I mean, picture sell. Yeah, worth a thousand words, right? With a thousand words. It's interesting too because different cultures have different meanings for words. You know, when we think about obedience or when we think about respect, it may mean different

things in different cultures. And so if you don't define your terms right off the bat, people talking past each other or side monologing and that, that, does that seem to happen in business? If only images can remove all misunderings. understandings. Oh, yeah. We may never see that day. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

But if only that could, if only that could happen. Yeah, I think you got to mix it with like spirituality and psychedelics and we might get somewhere, but one day maybe. Yeah, back to recording your dreams. Melissa, this has been incredible. I'm super thankful for your time and got to spend some time listening to what your visions are of the future, how you got to be where you are, what you got to be where you are. you're excited about. Where can people find you and what do you got coming up?

Yeah, the best ways to connect with me is through LinkedIn. So Melissa Kwan, my last name is spell K-W-A-N. I write daily slash weekly about my experience bootstrapping three companies. And if you want to check out how E-Webinar can help you, your business, free you from those repetitive webinars that you hate doing, just go to eWebinar.com, join our demo. of course, our demo of the product is our product, delivering the demo. So it's a very meta thing. I manage to chat or, you know, C.O.

My C.O. Todd. But yeah, we'd love to show you the product and, you know, give you your freedom back if that's your thing. But if you love doing back-to-back live demos or training, whatever, that's up to you as well. Then don't come to my website in that case. Amazing. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with us today. I hope you have a beautiful day. Melissa, hang on one second.

I'm going to talk to you briefly afterwards, but I'm going to hang up with our friends here. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. Have a beautiful day. Aloha.