TrueLife - Micah Anderson - She Was Freedom

Starting point is 00:00:01 Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearers through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

Starting point is 00:00:40 The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining, shining, shining. Hope the birds are singing. Hope the wind is at your back.

Starting point is 00:01:16 I got a banger for you guys today. It's going to be mind-blowing. I want everyone to welcome Micah Anderson. So, Aloha, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to this True Life podcast where we dive deep with trailblazers and game changers, shaping the future. Today, we're lighting up a conversation

Starting point is 00:01:31 with a true pioneer at the intersection of cannabis, entrepreneurship, and cutting-edge innovation. Micah Anderson is the founder and CEO of Leaf Brands, a visionary force behind one of the most sophisticated cannabis extraction facilities in North America. He holds every cannabis license type, making him a master navigator of one of the most complex industries in the world. Under his leadership, Leif has assembled a world-class executive team, built powerful distribution networks, and secured both private equity and institutional debt to fuel the company's growth. But Micah isn't just shaping markets,

Starting point is 00:02:05 he's shaping policy. Recognized at both the federal and state levels as a key opinion leader, he regularly advises government officials and takes the stage at conferences to share his insights. And if that weren't enough, he's a big-time Bitcoin believer, exploring the frontiers of finance just as boldly as he reshapes cannabis. From Green Rush to Digital Gold, today we're diving into the mind of a serial entrepreneur who thrives where innovation meets disruption. So buckle up, everybody. This is going to be a ride.

Starting point is 00:02:32 Michael, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me, George. I got to update a couple things in that. Yeah, it's all correct. I love it, man. I'm so stoked you're here, man.

Starting point is 00:02:46 I've been wanting to do this podcast for a while. And maybe I fleshed out a little bit of a background right there, but where do you want to start this at here? Maybe you can give us just a little bit more background of where you are now and how you kind of got there. Yeah, so as a company, you mean? Yeah, exactly. Geographically. Yeah, so as a company, where are we at today? So Leaf Brands is a publicly traded company.

Starting point is 00:03:12 We're listed in Canada. We're a California-based company soon to be taken our first step out of California into New York. And at the heart of our business, I'd say we're an extraction company. We're one of the larger extraction companies in the state of California. We are not new to cultivation by way of like I've been cultivating my whole life, but the company is new to it. So we've got one of the largest cannabis farms in America now at this point in Santa Barbara County, which is being planted next week. It took us about four years to get through the permitting process. We brought that on just because of the size of our extraction business.

Starting point is 00:03:54 So the whole thing's purposed for extraction. And our company, we focus on powering many of the larger brands in the state of California, as well as the larger retail footprints. So if you've got 10, 20, 50 doors and you want to supply a vape line internally with concentrated products, we would be one of the companies you would reach out to. It's amazing to think how far cannabis has come since like the underground day when I was buying dime bag from Chewy. You know, it's interesting to think about all that progress. Like, you've been on the inside for a long time.

Starting point is 00:04:31 Was it, let me start off with this. I got a great question coming in right off the back. It says cannabis has long been a symbol of both counterculture and healing. As someone who shaped the industry from the inside, do you see cannabis as a plant that's transforming society or is society transforming cannabis? That's a good question. I think I go back and forth on that, on which one I believe is happening. I think my hope is, I'll start there, I guess, that the plant, canvas would be the one that changes society.

Starting point is 00:05:10 And I think it still absolutely has the potential to do so. But I do think that sometimes I feel like we're losing that battle, you know, and that it's, I don't know. But let me, I guess, to focus on the good side of that, what I mean by that, my hope is I think that one of the things when we started leaf that I was like intrigued about her I thought was like, oh, this could be a good thing. You know, like, I think anytime, I think anytime government gets involved with industries,

Starting point is 00:05:40 it doesn't necessarily work out very well. And I think that cannabis, the early days of cannabis, I thought Proposition 215 was a beautiful structure. And it worked, it wasn't perfect, but it worked in a lot of ways in California. And so I was a part of all of that. And then a part of transitioning into Prop 64, which is we're at today. And I wanted to stay in the industry. And so converted everything that I had going.

Starting point is 00:06:03 on into the new structure that we're in now, which is where why Leap Brands is here today. The one thing that I could point to that I thought was a beneficial thing to the world was the pesticide screening that came in the regulation of Prop 64. And so I don't think that the industry's done a great job yet with that, but I feel like food, agriculture, water, medicine has been contaminated for many, many years. And I think that cannabis has a real unique opportunity to shed light on that. And so that's where I'm hopeful, you know, I think that I don't know how far down the rabbit hole we want to go here on this, but like just, I think that cannabis has a couple

Starting point is 00:06:54 different elements to it too. You've got the recreational side of it. You've also have the medicinal sign of it. And I think that those, I think that the recreational. side is obviously because of monetary reasons exploded more so than the medical side of it. And I wish that that was maybe less weighted in one way or the other. So I don't know if I'm answering the question, but I think that my hope is, is that it does. I think pesticides is a great way for us to utilize the plant and the regulations that we all have

Starting point is 00:07:29 to adhere to to help benefit the larger agricultural industry at level. large, even pharma, water, just the cleanliness around pesticides and metals. And yeah, I mean, it's been in this position to where we've tested millions of pounds of cannabis at this point over the past decade. And we've definitely seen that throughout the state of California, we have a serious problem. And it's coming from food, is coming from alcohol, whether it's from the vineyards, where people are spraying these toxic pesticides and they're drifting onto cannabis operations

Starting point is 00:08:08 that are trying their best to be clean and use best practices and they're still struggling passing test results. So I think that that's one way. I hope that the plant can help. And then I also think just from a holistic way of getting people to just think differently about life and like living healthier lifestyles,

Starting point is 00:08:29 not gravitating towards Western medicine or alcohol. I think that that's one of the things that I like about the industry. And what brought me to it at a pretty young age, I'm kind of libertarian in my mindset, you know, to where I feel like government should stay as small as possible and out of our ways. And I think that there's something about the cannabis industry

Starting point is 00:08:50 that was born in that as well. So I hope that the industry is able to not lose that, you know, has we, and this, you know, Leif is doing this, um, corporate thing now compared to where where I personally was once at, you know, and I'm actually, I, I'm enjoying it. It's been a learning experience for me, but I hope that Leaf can kind of maintain a bit of that, that, the culture side of where Canvas came from in this new kind of public market, corporate, you know, path that we're on right now. I think it's important for our company and I think it's important for the industry.

Starting point is 00:09:29 It's a great answer. And it kind of pulls back the curtain on some of the reasons why there's so much friction. I can only imagine that big vineyards. Like I live up in wine country right now. And I can only imagine the people that are using pesticides to cure for their plants do not want in any way, shape, or form to be limited in those pesticides. You know, so they're probably on one side kicking money to a different politician who's voting for them. Can you, like, is that happen? Or what are some other things behind the scenes that are really kind of blocking this legislation? Yeah, well, I definitely think that, you know, vineyards or even other ag industries, they definitely don't want a large cannabis farm next door to them for those reasons, you know. And I don't think, it's like I don't want to say that, hey, these guys are bad and we're good.

Starting point is 00:10:15 That's not necessarily what I'm saying. I think that the problem is more systemic than that. And like for since the 40s and 50s, we made a mistake in adopting the thought process around agriculture in general that like you have to use these types of products, which were at one point in time waste products from making some other type of product. And they figured out how to commercialize them, put them into the ag industry. And with that pesticides, different types of pesticides. So I think it's more of like getting farmers in general on board. with like, hey, you don't have to use this stuff. There's other things that we can all be using, even at scale.

Starting point is 00:10:57 So it's a lot of education, I think, needs to take place. But to answer your question directly, yeah, there's been, especially in Santa Barbara County, there's been battles almost between the wine industry and the cannabis industry. And I think at the end of the day, the wine guys are like, hey, we don't want you guys next door because we don't want the liability. If we ruined your crop and you guys were to sue us, like, that's a problem for our business and and you know so for selfish reasons they that's it's not wanted yeah it really shows like the intricate balance of of economy and partnership and and money when it comes down to it on some

Starting point is 00:11:40 level it's there's another interesting relationship that I'm curious about like the the sort of the underground and then the commercial side of it like it seems to me like there's so many players that pretty much everybody, not everybody, but a large portion of people started in the underground and then certain people make it, whether it's through sheer wheel guts or whatever it is. Is there a divide in your opinion between like the underground and the commercial side of it? Maybe expand on that a little bit.

Starting point is 00:12:12 What do you mean by divide? It just seems like a lot of people that are a lot smaller, get really upset at the guys that are kind of crushing it on like the big level. And there seems to be a divide there. I'm just kind of reading between the lines, but I see a lot of small guys go out of business and maybe they're making excuses. Maybe they have legitimate reasons why it's happening.

Starting point is 00:12:33 But I mean, as someone who's where you are, you started on the underground. You've been in the game for a long time. You've built something incredible that is somehow flourishing against all odds. And I'm just curious to get your perspective. Yeah, I think it's a fair point. I think that,

Starting point is 00:12:49 I don't want to answer this. You're welcome. I won't be politically correct. I'm just trying to think of my honest answer. I have a lot of friends that are still on the traditional side. And God bless them, they're still at it. I don't hold. I see the traditional side is still being part of our industry.

Starting point is 00:13:10 And I think that people that like to jump on board and bash on that side don't truly understand the industry. They're only looking at it through their, their lens. And I think that what we need to figure out is how do we, how do we bring that and fold that into the, the legal industry? Because, you know, the, the illicit side is, I don't know how many times it's larger, but it's much, much larger than the legal side. And, and I think that that's what we should be focused on is how do we get these guys? Because there's, there's good operators. I mean, the product on the illicit side, and sometimes is better than the product on the license side. That's just a fact. And it's because some of these operators, they do care about

Starting point is 00:13:57 the plant. They do care about the cleanliness of it and everything that everybody else cares about. They just have decided to not go through the red tape because it's not, it is not easy. Like the license side is freaking hard. I mean, the barriers to entry is brutal and it doesn't seem to be getting any easier either. Sorry, my cat. trying to jump on the table. So do I think that there's a, I think, yeah, sure, it exists. You know, you've got people that are not in the license side that maybe wanted to be in the license side, or they were in the license side and they gave it a go and like,

Starting point is 00:14:38 for whatever reason, didn't make it. And they're disgruntled about it. And it's easy to point fingers. I think sometimes like, oh, it's these guys' fault or it's their fault and they're the corporate monsters. I don't think that the quote unquote corporate monsters even exist in our industry yet. I really don't. I think that that's coming, but it hasn't gotten here yet.

Starting point is 00:14:57 I think you've got, you know, with bad actors and there's some toxic money that's entered into the space. But like, so I don't know if I'm answering your question. But yeah, it exists. It's unfortunate. I've seen a lot of really good people that took a stab at the license side and didn't make it for whatever reason. I think that, but scaling a, and I cannot really, I'll speak to California just because that's what I know the best. Scaling a licensed cannabis company in California is extremely challenging. And you've got to be able to raise money and make hard decisions.

Starting point is 00:15:40 And, you know, like, that's one of the things I'm proud of our team. A lot of the people that founded Leaf and started the company. were they're just like me. They're just legacy operators that like didn't want to quit. And we've all kind of like, it's mandatory reading. So we have a book club and we're literally teaching ourselves as we go. So for the past decade, I've gotten this like college education and business that I don't think you could get in college. And a lot of it was self-taught, you know, not just for me, but for everyone in our company. So we pass out these books and we say, hey, quarterly we're going to read these things. This is what we're going to focus on. but everything from raising money to corporate structure to tax strategy,

Starting point is 00:16:24 building culture within an organization, teams, building relationships, sales, all of that stuff wasn't necessarily a part of the legacy system, you know, like you didn't have to know all that stuff, and now you do.

Starting point is 00:16:40 And if you, if you're not focusing on that stuff, I think that you're going to have a real hard go at it. It's a great answer. I'm always so it stokes me to get to hear the way in which people have used

Starting point is 00:16:55 plant medicine, be it cannabis or psychedelics. For me, it's usually mushrooms. But somehow the relationship between those really help you forge a path forward that is beyond learning. It's experience. And just the relationship with that plant is experiential.

Starting point is 00:17:11 Depending on what you're using, it fundamentally for me changes the story I tell myself. about my life. That's an incredible education just having a plant ally or using cannabis or using mushrooms on some level. I'm really stoked to hear that. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the relationship that you have, like your personal relationship with cannabis. Yeah. Like I said, I think that cannabis in the very beginning when I was young, like represented like this sense of freedom and liberty for me. And then as I got a little bit older,

Starting point is 00:17:43 and sort of cultivating it more, spending more time with like my, hands in the soil and working with the plant like on the cultivation side was a huge learning experience for me and it got me to think differently just about what I put in my body from food the way you know my lifestyle working out all the time and all of that came from the plant there's like these like similarities to cultivating plants and cultivating you as an individual or a child that are like very very similar you know like you're growing plants you're you're growing plants you're you need to start that plant off. It needs to be as healthy as possible before you put it into the ground

Starting point is 00:18:23 and make sure that it's not rootbound and all these different things because that's going to set up the success all the way to harvest. And if you screw up the very front part end of it, you're going to screw up a lot of years. And I think that the same thing applies to humans as well. That's one of the things that I've kind of tripped out on sometimes. And yeah, on the psychedelic side, I totally agree with you. I think that like anyone that's ever had like a,

Starting point is 00:18:46 whether it's mushrooms, ayahuasca, or one of these other experiences, it's like, yeah, my own personal experience with it has been a very eye-opening thing for me. And ayahuasca specifically, like, one of the things that I feel like I've learned by doing it a handful of times is that I was always, my whole life I've been very like business-minded or entrepreneur ever since I was a little kid. I don't like and it was one of the things that I didn't necessarily like about my personality almost. And one of my partners, Kelly, I remember having this conversation with him at one of his farms up in Mendocino. And I was telling him, like, man, I wanted, I really wanted at the time it was DMT.

Starting point is 00:19:32 I really wanted to try DMT just because of the things that I heard about because I want to think differently about this. I don't want to always be so focused on everything's business, business, business. and I want to have this more, I don't know, empathetic way of looking at things. And it wasn't until I did ayahuasca that I kind of like, real, I don't know, I'm struggling on what I'm trying to say. But I walked out of the experience thinking differently than what I thought I was going to get out of it. And it basically kind of taught me that it's okay to be the way that I am, just add in these few other ways.

Starting point is 00:20:09 Like, you know, the empathy and the other things that you're looking, the way that I personally look at certain things. things, you know, it just gave me an alternative way of looking at it, I guess, is maybe the way to put it. So yeah, so both from the cannabis side or psychedelic side, I think that people that don't use them or have never experienced them, it's unfortunate, you know. There's a, I can't remember which politician said about someone, maybe it was, maybe it was Graham Hancock. I believe he talked about how he felt that politicians should have to do like five ayahuasca experiences before they were able to sit in office. I freaking completely agree with that. I think that it gives you a completely different way of looking at the world, your fellow humans.

Starting point is 00:21:02 And so anyways, I don't know if I answer. I love it. No, it's a beautiful answer. I love it. I see that pattern in so many people. and just speaking from my own experience, it's you really get to see a side of yourself that you've never seen before

Starting point is 00:21:19 if you're willing to surrender. You know, it's like not how much are you willing to do? It's like how much are you willing to let go? How much are you willing to let go of the old Georgia, the old mica, so that you can become the best version of George or Micah? It's transcending on so many levels. I've got another question coming in here for.

Starting point is 00:21:32 He says, in building leaf brands, you've turned to once illicit industry into a legitimate enterprise. What does it take? to walk that razor's edge between rebellion and regulation what does it take to walk the razor edge between rebellion uh it takes discipline and like uh yeah uh knowing where that it's a practice that honestly you know it's like you got to practice it's because it's like i can i still have the i carry the pirate flag deep in my soul that i'm not able to fly sometimes so um

Starting point is 00:22:09 Yeah, discipline, in more of a serious answer, though. I think that there's all these rules and regulations and things that you do, you have to adhere to them. And you need to build a team around yourself and the organization that can help support that. So making sure that you've got a good person on the compliance side, always staying up to the latest and greatest and whatever the rules are. And that's one of the things that's challenging for me is that they change the rules so fast and so often. And it's like, man, I can't, you know, like it's hard to keep up with it.

Starting point is 00:22:41 So and it's also expensive. You got to be able to like afford it and spend the time, the energy and have the discipline to make sure that you are reviewing these rules and regulations. And then not not lose the reason why you got into this in the first place, though, in all of that. Because otherwise you can just get so caught up in the minutia of the, what's the word? Corporatocracy. Is that even a word? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:08 in all of it that it can kill the culture. The reason why you're here in the first place, and then you end up being this like shell of an organization that once brought you into this industry. So I guess that's how I look at it. That's how I kind of balance the two. I want leave to be compliant. I want us to be successful in adhering to the rules and all the rest.

Starting point is 00:23:31 And this past year, I'll say that I've spent more time getting involved and actually being in the room when these decisions are being made. You kind of read off from my resume, which I don't know where you pulled that from, but that I get involved with more of the trade associations and showing up in Sacramento and trying to be a part of the solution versus just bitching about the problem. Like, oh, this sucks. They're ruining this industry. Okay, sure.

Starting point is 00:23:57 But what are you doing about it? And I think that that goes beyond just our industry, too. It's like, don't complain if you're not in the room. room trying to be a positive impact to the industry. So I'm spending more of my time doing that. I'm actually enjoying it, which is weird to say because I can't stand. I can see how screwed it up it is once you spend a little bit of time in Sacramento. But someone's, we need to show up. The people that care about this industry and have been doing it for a long time have to show up to this stuff. Otherwise, the wrong people are going to be making the rules and they're going to

Starting point is 00:24:30 set the industry in the worst trajectory than it already is. It's a great answer. You know, I noticed you got some incredible new additions to the team with Jesse Redmond and you're just surrounded by really incredible people, man. Can you help, like maybe there's some other entrepreneurs listening to this or just people in general, but what do you look for when you're building a team? And what's that process like? Just surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, you know, and that align

Starting point is 00:24:57 with your core values and the company's core values. Jesse's a great example of that. smart guy, Wall Street background, got into cannabis for the right reasons, has stuck with it, has got his teeth kicked in, speaks eloquently, and like really helps me with like seeing the angle at which he looks at the industry, especially from a public market perspective, I need that because that's not a skill set that I have. So it's good to have him around the table in these conversations. Surround yourself with people that are not yes man. Jesse's not a yesman. you know like he's not even two months into it and he's already going i don't like that you know

Starting point is 00:25:38 here's the reason why i don't like it here you know which is good doesn't mean that you know you just don't want a bunch of people that are on the team that just nod the head you know every time you talk and and tell you you're smart um that doesn't do you and that doesn't doesn't help anybody so because i'm i'm not so yeah people that are starting companies if you're an entrepreneur that's one thing I would say is like have enough humility to put smarter people on the team than yourself, you know, and just make that, make that a focus and a goal at all times. Imagine that. Jesse Redmond chiming in. Great show so far, guys. Love Micah's perspective. What a brilliant time to shine in right there, Jesse. You're awesome, Jesse. We love you, man.

Starting point is 00:26:27 Well, you said, Micah, you said he got into it for the right reasons. And that hints at a set of right reasons to get into something. Can you maybe flesh those out? Like, what are the right reasons? Well, I think, I mean, you got to have passion for something. Everyone's got to have some sort of a why. Like, why are you involved with this? A lot of times people get involved with it for medical reasons.

Starting point is 00:26:46 Like, I'm pretty sure. And Jesse, sorry if I botched this, but I think Jesse got into the cannabis industry because he was looking for a medical solution to an ailment that I believe his dad was having. kind of discovered the industry. And then, you know, he's a capitalist at heart, or at least I think he is, where, you know, he sees, he's like, hey, this could be an industry that I can not only be passionate about. It's doing something good for humanity, but there's also a way to make money here. And then he got involved in the industry.

Starting point is 00:27:15 He ran a retail store. So he's got like direct operational experience. And I consider that. That's not the only reason that makes it the right reason, you know, but I think that whether it's cannabis or anything. If you're solely there just because you want to make money, I think that the chances of that company surviving in the long term are lower than they would be if there was like a real passion and a why behind why that company is there. Yeah, I think that's sage advice. You know, it's interesting that we bring up the medical issue

Starting point is 00:27:54 of it. You know, on a personal level, like my wife has stage three cancer. And we've recently talked to a few people about RSO. I know you guys are a huge, I know you guys are a huge extraction facility down there. And maybe we could shift gears and talk a little bit about RSO and how I can help. My wife has used different tinctures and stuff. It helps her sleep at night. And it frustrates me beyond belief to hear people talking about. There's no medicinal value. But what are your thoughts on RSO and helping people with these different extracts? it's unfortunate that you know the fact that this this plant is still a schedule one narcotic has put the plant and the industry in this position to where we haven't been able to do a lot of like real medical research like real true studies and and when you do do some of them they're they're very expensive to do and hard to do you got to find someone with the right licensing and get sign-offs and all this stuff so most the cannabis industry isn't in a position where they can afford to do it. And the money's on the recreational side. So from a business standpoint, that's where they focus their energy. And so I think that

Starting point is 00:29:03 whether it's RSO or tinctures or gummies or topicals, I think that there's a very strong anecdotal. It's common sense, I think, and like common knowledge that this stuff works. And it has people have cured themselves from all kinds of ailments using cannabis. Yeah, I think it's unfortunate though that like most of the industry is not focused on that at all. That kind of gets pushed off to the wayside. There should be more of an emphasis on it. But I also understand why companies, even like ourselves, I would love to do real research programs and launch products that are more catered to the medical side. But from a financial business standpoint, it's hard to do because you're like, man, you could go, you could go broke doing it in the process.

Starting point is 00:29:54 hopefully that changes with rescheduling. And but, you know, and then also from a personal standpoint, I'm a big believer in just whether it's plant medicines or diets, drinking water and working out, touching grass and eating meat, whatever it is, I think all of that is better for you than putting oxycotton or one of these other things into your body. And we've seen just how detrimental that is to society, you know? and I hope that cannabis fixes that. I think that it gives people an alternative,

Starting point is 00:30:30 and us as an industry should spend more time focusing on that and educating people and marketing that, but man, the powers that be do their best to suppress that. Yeah, I see it too. And I imagine it comes with the same sort of friction that we spoke about earlier about cannabis and different industries, having problems with it, you know, like I would imagine, from the little, from the research that I have done, it seems to

Starting point is 00:30:58 cut into the profit margin of like a lot of, whether it's alcohol, tobacco, even big pharma on some of it. I could see why they would push back and, and be like, hey, this is, this is a no-go. This is unsafe. You know, if you can just keep it buried for so long, it doesn't have the sunlight to grow. Is that, is that too far-fetched? No, I think that's spot on. I think if you are, if you're a big industry and you have another industry that's coming in and eating your market share, you're going to find ways to push back against that, even if it's, they're inaccurate. You know, and, you know, I think with the economy going the direction it's going and people feeling the pressure of inflation,

Starting point is 00:31:35 people are looking at it and they're like, they open up their wall and they're like, I got $50 in here. What am I going to go, you know, spend that money on? Is it going to be for my vice type products? Is it going to be alcohol? Is it going to be a TAC? And even when, they walk into a dispensary, they're making decisions based on the amount of money and the purchasing power of that money as they walk into a store. So yeah, if you're a big corporation and you're noticing that that $50 isn't being spent on your industry anymore and like percentage wise, it's like, man, it's going over to cannabis or or people that are just making the decision to be sober, they're going to start writing hippieses and do their best to, you know, suppress real

Starting point is 00:32:20 information. And that's one of the unfortunate parts of business. Yeah. I think you're uniquely qualified in a lot of ways. And the question that comes to mind for me right now is what can psychedelics learn from cannabis? Like we're seeing sort of like a quasi legalization, like an organ in Denver, but they're going through some of the same processes.

Starting point is 00:32:42 Can you speak a little bit about the, what, psychedelics can learn from what cannabis has been through? I would focus on the medical side and don't try and push it into the recreational bucket. You know, like just for making money. I don't think psychedelics has meant for that anyways. I think that it's okay to make money off of it in therapies and all of that. But I wouldn't, let's just take mushrooms. Okay.

Starting point is 00:33:14 I wouldn't, I don't think that eating a ton of mushrooms is necessary. a recreational experience. I know it's fun at times. I mean, trust me, I know it's fun. I don't think it's something that you do every day. Like cannabis is different in that way where it's like, you know, I smoke almost nightly just to help go to sleep. And but I don't eat mushrooms all the time. And I don't, you know, that's like an annual event for me if I'm going to like do that. And so I guess to answer your question, what's something that they could learn from the cannabis industry? The cannabis industry went hard on the recreational side of cannabis. And I think that psychedelic as a medicine and as an industry should try and stay more on the medical side, do real research.

Starting point is 00:34:04 And don't try and go push it into the – because I think that just from the legislative side, you're going to get so much push back if that's the direction that the industry tries to take it, you're not going to get anywhere. But I think like, you know, you look at Texas. I saw there was an interesting interview with, it's not Rick Rubin. That's the, it's not right. What's the guy's name? He was the governor of Texas and he was talking to Rogan about. Rick Perry?

Starting point is 00:34:33 Rick Perry, thank you. Yeah, so Rick Perry and another gentleman were on there and they're having this discussion around bringing Ibo Gain in as a therapeutic in Texas. And this is coming from the governor of Texas who doesn't like any drugs. And that to me kind of speaks to, I guess, what I'm trying to say. I think that if we go the medical route and you open it up as a medical industry and create centers where people can go in for real therapy, you're going to get guys like Rick Perry that are like, yeah, I'm for that.

Starting point is 00:35:03 I can see that this is, you know, there's evidence here. I know someone who had whatever the ailment was and it helped them dramatically. And therefore, I'm going to help push this along and we'll get this through written into law. But I think that if the psychedelic, industry pushes it the other way and they're like no i want to just be able to blow this out on every street corner like cratum and all this other stuff i don't think it's going to go anywhere so yeah it's a great take thank you for that i you know it when we bring up rick perry and in rogan it comes to mind for me is how many veterans are being helped i got a great friend diego yugaldi who's he started a company called warrior side and it's basically ted talks for special forces combat

Starting point is 00:35:45 and how they've used plant medicines to overcome it. Actually, it's going to be in San Diego on March 29th. So anybody listening within the sound of my voice, do yourself a huge favor. Check out Diego, Yagal. They buy some tickets. I think they've got a few left. But it's amazing to see how so many of the veterans have played part, not only in cannabis, but in psychedelics and sort of helping push the boundaries of that stigma further back.

Starting point is 00:36:09 What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think it's a, I know another guy, this guy, Jason Gardner, was a Navy SEAL sniper, I think, at like the very highest levels. He worked underneath a guy here in San Diego named Jocko, Willink, who's like a jiu-jitsu guy and has a podcast and Navy SEAL guy. He's on Rogan's podcast a lot as well. Anyways, I've gotten to know Jason, and same thing. He's used Irogan and other psychedelic therapies to help him. And I think, you know, listening to his stories, it's profound. It's, it's, it's, it definitely think it works. I think that anyone in the military or anything in life,

Starting point is 00:36:49 people have like all kinds of different things that they're trying to work through and negative stories, you know, experiences that they've had in their life. And I definitely think that it's worth at least giving it a real look with an open mind to see if it's something that can help. Yeah, I agree. All right, who we got? We've got Clint Kyle's coming in here. He says, you hold every cannabis license type,

Starting point is 00:37:14 period of feat in itself. Do you see these licenses as keys to unlocking opportunity or as shackles that keep innovation in check? Yeah. And we should update that because it's not at one point in time, I probably did have every single license type. Not anymore. I've divested myself of a handful of them. So maybe that kind of halfway answers your question. I think, look, if you want to participate in the legal cannabis industry, you've got to have some sort of license.

Starting point is 00:37:44 unless you're a brand. If you're a brand, there are like legal loopholes that you can kind of get through where you do a licensing agreement with someone like Leaf to leverage their license and then you're able to act as like a marketing agency and then sell your products into market. A lot of brands do that nowadays, and I think that's a good, smart asset lightweight. I do think that cannabis licenses are a depreciating asset. it costs a lot of money to get them up and operational. And not all of them, but a lot of them end up sliding backwards in terms of value.

Starting point is 00:38:25 And, you know, if you're on the public side, as we are, you know, a lot of these public companies, you look around, there's a lot of people taking write downs on these assets all the time, negatively impacting their balance sheet. So I think that there's a pro and contum. I think if you're going to go the licensed route and you're going to buy one, make sure you get it at a good deal. be smart about it. Don't overpay. Don't pull a Medman and pay $70 million for a license that makes zero cents. So I think it's a pro and con way to look at it. Yeah, licenses can be a positive thing and they can be like something, a necessity, you got to have one. But they can also be a

Starting point is 00:39:06 negative thing if you overpay for them, if you buy them in the wrong area, or you buy them in a state or a municipality that starts off with a few of them so they're a scarce resource and then all of a sudden they become not scarce because they decide to issue 100 more licenses like do your homework and look into that before making that decision yeah that's great advice shout out to lighter what's all lighter thank you for always being here man your incredible human being he says i think encountering ibo gain in the addiction treatment setting could be deeply meaningful if the consciousness around it adapts to the healing mechanism that's a great point Thank you lighter for chiming in right there.

Starting point is 00:39:46 One more. They're stacking up on me over here, Micah. The cannabis industry has deep roots in underground culture. As the market becomes more corporate, how do you preserve the soul of the plant while scaling a business? Thank you, Desiree. That's a good question. I think about that one often, honestly, because that's what we're doing.

Starting point is 00:40:09 So we're about to plant this massive farm in Santa Barbara. like it's crazy how big it is. And it doesn't escape me or that at one point in time, I want small farms and the people that have been around the small farming community to survive and thrive and be successful. So it's like I have to balance my personal thoughts to like what I think Leaf needs as a company to be able to get the amount of material that we need that's pesticide free to scale the business and all those types of things. So how do we preserve that? Like even amongst my

Starting point is 00:40:52 employees or shareholders, I think about that all the time where it's like, and I think the honest answer is I just, I talk about it a lot. You know, like I'm very open about it and I talk about it when I have meetings with our managers or company meetings once or twice a year, preserving the culture. and everyone knows where I stand on this. It's very important to me that like we need to preserve the cannabis culture and not get caught up with just like we got to just make money, money, money, money, money. You know, money is yeah, you got to make money. The company has to be successful. And I think that if we preserve that culture, do the right thing, kind of, you know, maintain our North Star and don't really like give up on the core value side of who we are as a company.

Starting point is 00:41:36 and that the money side, we're going to be a successful company. I believe that, and I think that there's nothing wrong with that. I think that there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but I do think that it's important that you don't forget where you came from. Don't forget about all the people that have kind of paid the way and put in the hard work and done jail time and all these various things to get the industry to where it is today. So that's the way I look at it.

Starting point is 00:42:06 I love the way you look at it. It's a beautiful way to do it. You know, being an industry leader in this particular arena, you guys are kind of setting the culture, you know, and I know, like, I've seen you sitting next to Max Kaiser, and I see you down in all these places and, like, you're surrounded by cool people that we've already spoken about. Is there any, have you given any thought to, like, having, like, the same way Google has Google talks, like, maybe like Leaf Talks, you know, bringing in some people for the community

Starting point is 00:42:34 and just, you know, sharing experiences and stuff. like that. I really love what you guys are doing. I wish it was opened up for other people to come and visit and see. What are your thoughts? Yeah, it's a good idea. If Jesse's still listening, maybe put that on your to-do list. I think it's a good idea. I think that there's so many cool stories in the industry, like people that I know up in Mendocino and Humbold that have really been doing this forever, you know, people that are in their 70s and 80s and they've truly seen it all. There's some really cool stories that would. be cool to capture on film. And, you know, we're at this point now where you're not getting in

Starting point is 00:43:12 trouble for it anymore. So you don't have to, like, hide the stories the way that you had to before. But I don't know. I don't do a lot of podcasts, you know, so, and I get, like, I don't know, I'm gun shy or nervous when I'm doing them. I don't know if I'd be the right guy to, to lead that charge, like doing the interviews and whatnot. But, yeah, I have, you know, this industry and the company has definitely landed me in a few positions. Max Kaiser being one of them, which was for real for me, where I've been able to talk to some cool people and get advice from people that like I really respect. And back to that whole, you know, back to just listen to people and surround your people with people that are better than you on as much as you possibly can.

Starting point is 00:43:56 So it's not a bad idea, though. Maybe we'll do something on the ranch. That would be cool. We have this very, very cool, unique setup on the ranch and we can bring in people. one of the things I do want to do back to being a part of the solution is I want to start I want to start hosting these trade association get-togethers on the ranch where people get together and spend a couple days really thinking through how to structure the industry and how to go back to the state to ask for things I think one of the problems that we have is that the state dissected this this industry and put it into a bunch of different license types And what happened was we all started infighting with each other.

Starting point is 00:44:37 It's the distributors' fault. It's the manufacturers' fault. It's the cultivators are getting their deal, whatever the, everyone's looking at it from their own angle. And I think that, like, we got to figure out a way, like, not to fight with each other. Unify what it is that we're looking for and then go together, because that's what other industries do. And that's what I've kind of learned this past year, listening to some of the policymakers in, Sacramento is like the canvas industry is so fragmented. I'll take a meeting with this trade association and a day later I'll take one with another one and you guys are literally saying the

Starting point is 00:45:12 exact opposite thing. So there he goes. Jesse. I love it. I love it. Get with me on that, Jesse. I got some other idea to run by you. So the another aspect of it. Let me, I got to get this one off the top of my head. Yeah. Is Max Kaiser and my Michael Saylor, Satoshi? No. Okay, I had to ask. I don't think so. No.

Starting point is 00:45:42 I don't think so. I mean, I think if Sailor was Satoshi, he would have gotten involved with it, obviously, much, much earlier. Unless you believe that he came in later as all part of the show, you know, I don't think so. My take on Satoshi, you didn't have. ask me, but I'm going to share it.

Starting point is 00:46:04 Please. What I hope it is, I don't think it's an individual. I think it's probably a group of individuals, very, very small people that were fed up with the Federal Reserve System and the way that centralized banking works. And they thought up a way of how do we, in this new digital age, create a system that truly puts the power of money back into the hands of people? And that's what my hope is. because that's what it is.

Starting point is 00:46:33 If you really study Bitcoin and it takes a long time to study it, it's not easy. It's a, it's a, I missed it for years. I mean, man, I could have gotten involved with it back when it was probably sub $100. And I kept writing it off because I thought it was the opposite of what it was. I thought it was a digital way of enslaving people, you know, and like getting rid of using paper currency and being involved in the cannabis industry for as long as I have. It's like I can see there's a benefit and I understand why centralized banking eventually would want to get rid of paper currency and allowing people to use money and

Starting point is 00:47:11 digitize it. So that's what I think Satoshi is or was. Maybe it was one person and he just was like, I'm going to give this to the world. And it took 15 years to, well, not that long, but it took a handful of years to really catch wind. And now it's caught. win. I mean, now it's crazy. I mean, you get the president and all these nation states adopting it and all the rest. So now I think Max is a guy that understood sound money and did his homework early. Someone brought it to him and said, you're a sound money gold guy, which is what Max was for years. That's when I listened to him forever and bought gold through his company and off of his recommendation, listening to him for years. And I think that he understood sound money. He understood the

Starting point is 00:48:01 what scarcity was around money and saw what it was going to become and got involved with it. Yeah, it's a great take. I'm fascinated by it. What was El Salvador like when you went down there? Like, you've seen a country transformed. Like, when I look at the pictures where I read the articles, I see so much rapid transformation and rapid innovation. What was your experience down there like?

Starting point is 00:48:25 Yeah, I went down there specifically for a Bitcoin conference. So my, I guess my time was limited and what I was able to go see was limited. But I'll say this. I grew up surfing my whole life. I've traveled all over South America. And El Salvador was always the country that was like the no-no. Like, don't go to El Salvador. It's too dangerous.

Starting point is 00:48:48 And I didn't pick up on any of that. I mean, like it seems like the country Bucaly's gone in there and like 180, the thing and put you know all these gang the gangsters are essentially running all these major cities from what you know you talk to the local people that's what their take was and that's like been completely you know exterminated it's not there anymore the one thing i would say that i was a little kind of surprised by so el salvador is i think the first country to adopt bitcoin as like currency or money um and they've been purchasing purchasing quite a bit of it i thought i was going to be able to purchase anything with Bitcoin just off of my phone. You know, I didn't see a lot of that,

Starting point is 00:49:30 but there's definitely, there's a Bitcoin adoption. They're trying to educate the population in El Salvador on what Bitcoin is and how it's a way to preserve wealth and to get people to start investing into Bitcoin. So it's a beautiful country. We made our way over to a beach called Bitcoin Beach. They had like this after-pull. already there. And there's a very good wave out in front of it. All the hotels were all the food was good. So yeah, I mean, I would go back for sure. And Max lives on a golf course. There's a private golf club. And since the country has gone the way that it's gone with Bitcoin, there's a ton of interest, international interest from investors. And so I met all kinds of people

Starting point is 00:50:23 from real estate developers to tech companies, Bitcoin companies that now all live down there full-time. And it seems like it's pretty, it's exploding. There's a lot of development, a lot of construction going on. So yeah, it was cool. It sounds amazing. I was always curious about it. And you're the only person I know that's really been down there to kind of shake hands and talk to people. So I wanted to get it. But it brings up another question to mine, which when we talk about the illicit drug trade, and we talk about El Salvador, what percentage, where is the month, do you think that there's a big connection between maybe South America and the illicit farms that are happening here in California? No. Well, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I think it exists, but do I think it exists

Starting point is 00:51:11 the way that the news says it does? No, I don't. I really don't. I think that it's a blown-out story for political reasons. The, what am I trying to say? If you look at it, if you look at the cannabis industry, whether it's the black market or the white market, right, the price per pound will put either side out of business if it goes so low that either side can't survive, right? And I think that that's where we're at in California is that it's gotten so low that the incentive for like these massive black market farms to exist, it's, it's not, it's not there the way that they, the news makes it sound as if like there's just, you, there's just prolific acres and acres and acres everywhere. And I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something.

Starting point is 00:52:10 I'm a pilot. I fly all over the state. I've been up and down the state of California hundreds of times. For 15 years, I flew from San Diego to Mendocino or Humble back and forth and back and forth for work. And I've seen nothing but an industry slowly be eradicated over that time period where when I first got my pilot's license, I was just blown away. And then it kind of got like even more so, like leading into Prop 64. And then ever since then, there's just nothing but empty gardens and fields all over the state of California. So do they exist? Yeah, sure.

Starting point is 00:52:46 There's still an illicit market. Is it as big as they make it out to be on the news? No, it is not, in my opinion. And is it ran by like this dark element of like the cartel deep from within the jungle? South America, I don't think so. At $250 a pound, I'd like to think that those guys have like other things that they're working on where they're making more money. But yeah, that's kind of my take. I think that just this might come off not politically correct, but I don't care. Just because people are Mexican working in a field doesn't mean that it's some cartel

Starting point is 00:53:23 operation. And I think like that's what the news says sometimes and it's bullshit. Yeah, that's a great take. LIDAR comes back and he says, is Bitcoin priming us for a centralized digital currency? I think that maybe you touched upon that when you were first beginning Bitcoin. It may have been one of your fears. But what's your take on is Bitcoin priming us for a centralized digital currency? I hope not. You know, that that's my concern with the digital currencies. And, you know, just full transparency for anyone listening. I'm not, I'm not an expert. I'm not like a longtime bitcoiner that's been a part of it. Like, I'm new to it. And I'm I'm a believer in it.

Starting point is 00:54:02 But that would be my concern, and that's what I'm not for. I don't want to centralize, digitalized currency that you get into like the government really having the power to shut you off if they don't like your social media posts, if you haven't paid your taxes, if there's anything about your life that you don't like, well, none of us want that. And we need to fight back against that as much as we possibly can. Does Bitcoin pave the way to it? I think that the way that the Bitcoin network works, the answer is no.

Starting point is 00:54:34 Could governments write laws to create centralized, digitalized currencies, like their version of Bitcoin? Yeah, sure. I think that every other coin that's been invented outside of Bitcoin, in essence, is a manmade thing controlled by board with its own set of rules. And governments could take that and then take it a step further and, like, right laws that make either Bitcoin illegal or force you to use their centralized, digitalized currency no different than the Fed forces us to use the dollar. Could that happen? Let's hope not, but maybe. Yeah, it's a great question. It's, it's so interesting to see all these digital currencies come up. Can we expect to see a leaf coin come out in the future? No, fuck.

Starting point is 00:55:28 No. No. Well, look, no. My answer is no. But what I think is interesting, and I'm not going to go too far into this because I honestly, I'd be over my skis and I'd be, I'm not educated on it. But the Lightning Network is interesting. There's a company called Tether, which is basically tokenized the dollar. And so, and there's, I was listening to this really, really interesting conversation yesterday about it. There's a guy named Preston Pish. that I met at a Bitcoin conference not very long ago, just happened to meet this guy in the bar and bullshitted with him for a while and then found out that he's got like one of the biggest Bitcoin conferences out there. This guy's smart. And he was talking about how Tether and the Lightning Network

Starting point is 00:56:15 have a way to basically tokenize shares. So like Leaf as a public company could end up tokenizing our shares in a way that our shareholders were able to take self-custody of them in a very, very easy way and transfer them to one another easily. Whereas like being a cannabis company and having shares, it's problematic sometimes for shareholders because there's this thing called a DRS that you got to go through to get your shares transferred into your account. You've got to find a company that is willing to hold those shares for you.

Starting point is 00:56:52 And sometimes because they're cannabis, they will. Sometimes they won't. I think if you were to tokenize share, shares from what they with the way that they were explaining it, it would eliminate, um, and make it eliminate that issue and make it a lot easier for self custody, their own shares, whether that's a Microsoft,

Starting point is 00:57:11 Tesla, Leif, whatever company it is. That's interesting. That's something that I could see like, I could see that being a cool new technology that people could benefit from. But is Leif going to mine Bitcoin, create a leaf shit coin?

Starting point is 00:57:26 No, we're not. We're not doing that. It's classic. It's so exciting to see the future where, like, that would cut out so many middlemen to be able to tokenize it like that. But ultimately, that's what everyone's fighting against. Like, all those middlemen are like, you're not going to cut me out. You know who I am? You're not going to cut me out of this thing.

Starting point is 00:57:43 Yeah. Let's see. Who do we got coming in here? We got, this one is coming to us from Kevin. He says, entrepreneurship is often painted as a pursuit of freedom. yet the process demands structure, discipline, and sacrifice. How do you balance personal freedom with the responsibilities of leadership? How do I balance personal freedom with the responsibilities of being a leader?

Starting point is 00:58:10 I spend a lot more time working on leadership than I do on personal things. You know, I guess just to answer it kind of directly, it's like so on the personal side, I try my very best to make sure that I'm big into time blocking. you know so I I wake up early I straight into the gym I'm walking out of the gym by 630 then I spend an hour to 45 minutes or sorry 30 minutes to 45 minutes reading that's a big part of my daily structure and all of that is for my personal headspace it's so that I have a bit of reprieve from what happens at 7 o'clock which is then you get into the workday and it's just like a barrage of you know chaos at times and and it can be fatiguing and totally stressful and I think

Starting point is 00:58:58 that if you don't have a way to off-gas that, that stress, that you will fatigue and burn out eventually. So on the leadership side, I think leadership is, it's like a muscle. It's a skill set that some people, they're born with more of it than others, but like, you still have to work it out and exercise that muscle and, like, learn new techniques. and listen to other people that are better than it than you to get better at it. When I think of like, and even getting older too, I think helps in leadership, you know, gives you like just an older, wiser way of looking at things sometimes versus being young and just like, you know, eager or like it's easy to just jump in and judge or fly out the handle in certain situations.

Starting point is 00:59:54 And as I definitely feel like as I've gotten older, I've gotten better. I'm not a fly off the handle type person, so I don't, luckily for my employees, they don't have to deal with that. But yeah, you just get better at it. So I don't know if I'm answering the question, but I do think that it's an important question. And anyone that's in business should be spending a lot of their time. If you're an entrepreneur and you're in a leadership position, it's something that you need to, like, constantly work at. I mentioned the gentleman that I've become kind of friendly with, this guy, Jason, And he works for a company called Eschelon Front, which is a leadership training program basically for CEOs and COOs and different types.

Starting point is 01:00:38 And so that's how I met him. This guy, Jocko here in San Diego, is the one he puts it on. And so I go to that once a year. And I try and get tuned up here and there from different people to help me have a good board, people that are in leadership positions that you can bounce ideas off of. and I've never experienced this. Have you? What have you done in these things? And then, yeah, I feel like I'm ranting on the question.

Starting point is 01:01:05 Hopefully I answered it. No, it's knowledge, man. I think a lot of people are curious to figure out these ideas of leadership. Obviously, Kevin was, I am, and there's a lot of people out there that are chasing dreams. And I think that when they hear you talk or maybe they look into leave or they look into some things that you're doing, they're like, hey, here's a guy who's found a way to translate vision into reality. So I think it's important. we can just stay on that for a minute. Can you share with us maybe a time?

Starting point is 01:01:29 Like, what do you do, Michael, when shit hits the fan and you're like, geez, I don't know if I should even fucking done this? You know, like, what do you do? What is your process like when you find yourself up against the wall? I, one of the things that I feel like I've learned in the past few years, I feel like I've gotten better at it is I don't immediately react to anything. I try and, if there's, unless it's something that's like, I have to immediately, like, step in and do something, okay, that's different.

Starting point is 01:01:58 But there's so many different curveballs and fires and issues that arise. And not being so reactionary to them is a bit of a hack. Take a day, two days, three days before responding to it and really think about whatever it is and what the right decision is and weighing into account all the different factors. That's one thing that I do. Like I said, I work out a lot. I do jitza a lot. And it's like I'm not doing it because I'm trying to get into shape.

Starting point is 01:02:34 It's literally the, it's a release valve for me on stress. So like running, reading books, working out, jujitsu, like gives you this moment of time to clearly think through things when you're not being like when you're not sitting there focusing on work per se or whatever the thing, you know, whatever the issue. is. And I think just getting comfortable with chaos. That's not, you know, another thing. It's like, you've got to just get accepted that this is going to be hard. And every day you're going to get hit with some new challenge. And if you think that entrepreneurship and leadership is anything but that, like, you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. You should, you, you should be an entrepreneur. Because there's plenty of, like, the world needs, needs that just as much as we need, you know, as well. So I think making that decision, you know, um, these a couple of kids here in La Jolla

Starting point is 01:03:34 asked me the other day where they were talking about this business idea. And their question was, how do we know when to start? Like we don't even know where to start at all in this idea that they haven't. I'm like, I just, even for cannabis, like it starts by starting that, you know, it's stupid, but it's like you literally just start and you figure it out as you go. And that's exactly, that's, that's leave. That's what we did. I had no freaking idea how to do 99% out of growing wheat and selling weed. I had no idea how to do any of the other stuff building team.

Starting point is 01:04:08 I had never done it before. And nor had my partners. And yeah, I'm blown away. I look at these guys now and I'm like, this guy Gary that works for us runs our extraction facility. He's not even the same human being. He's the stuff he does now compared to where he was when he started. And I'd say that for a lot of the guys on our team too. So yeah, you just got to start and you got to accept that every day is going to be chaos.

Starting point is 01:04:38 And that's part of being an entrepreneur. That's part of that. And with that, you get the freedom of being an entrepreneur. And it's like this invaluable thing. It's like being a parent. Being a parent is the hardest, most challenging thing that you will ever do in your life. And it is also the most rewarding. thing that you will ever do in your life.

Starting point is 01:04:58 It's literally the purpose of life. And so if you kind of have that mentality about running a business, that's how you can kind of get through the daily, you know, chaotic. As Jocko calls them, their shirt tugs, every day you get these shirt tugs. And if you pay attention to every single one of them, all you're going to be doing is just trying to cater to whoever's tugging on your shirt. and you need to learn how to manage that and don't get distracted by the shirt tugs. Man, it's a brilliant answer.

Starting point is 01:05:32 We've got one coming in here on policy. This is coming. You've advised government officials on cannabis policy. What's more difficult, shifting the public narrative or convincing policy makers to see beyond decades of stigma? Read that one more time. What's more difficult? shifting the public narrative or convincing policymakers to see beyond decades of stigma. I think the latter convincing policymakers.

Starting point is 01:06:09 There's so many outside influences that you're not even privy to when you're going in and you feel like you're presenting a common sense solution to a problem. And you're like, why don't these guys get it? Like, why don't they just see that like the obvious. obvious solution is to just do this. They're behind the scenes hit with so many other things that are going on and like the lobbyist efforts that are going on on both sides.

Starting point is 01:06:38 And so convincing policymakers, I think, is like very, very challenging because it's not, 90% of the problem isn't necessarily convincing them that your solution is accurate and sound. It's getting through all, the other bullshit behind the scenes to get whatever it is that you want done. And I feel like I'm saying that not very intelligently, but hopefully get my point. It's like that's what's hard.

Starting point is 01:07:07 It's like getting these policy things across the finish line when there's a hundred other outside influences that are beyond your control undermining or throwing headwinds at what you're trying to do. Yeah, it makes total sense to me. I could see how, you know, it's like the old argument between complicated and complex. Like a complicated problem is something you can fix, but a complex problem doesn't really have a defined answer. There's all these undefined variables. And when you're dealing with a politician, lobby makers, Lord knows what sort of complexities

Starting point is 01:07:39 is happening up there. Here's another one that's along the same vein. Policy shapes culture as much as culture shapes policy. Do you believe legal frameworks can ever truly affect the complexity of cannabis and its role in human history. That's a deep one. Yeah. I don't know if I'm smarter enough to answer that.

Starting point is 01:08:00 You totally are. Say it one more time. So policy shapes culture as much as culture shapes policy. Do you believe legal frameworks can ever truly reflect the complexity of cannabis and its role in human history? Ever, do I believe that legal frameworks can ever? Reflect the complexity of the cannabis. industry.

Starting point is 01:08:25 Reflect the complexity of the I honestly don't know if I'm smart enough. I think that maybe I'll just go off on a tangent. Yeah, do it. Do I think that legal frameworks, I think that in any industry, whether it's cannabis or otherwise, I think that people need to be careful about how much government intervention they want. want. And I'm not an anarchist and the way I'm thinking about this. I definitely think that there's a role for government. I think that there's a role for law enforcement. But I think that

Starting point is 01:09:10 we need to be very careful about how we structure that and how much involvement we have in the legal framework of just industry in general. And so I think that too much of it or too much of it put into place by people that don't understand the industry can be a bad thing and detrimental to both the culture, to the operational efficiency of the industry and can become quite toxic to business in general. And I don't know if I'm answering your question. I apologize if I'm not. But that's one of the ways that I look at it. I try and think about, I wish that for our industry that government would be as small as possible. I think that we've way over-regulated this plant and like demonized it in a way by putting it around, you know, a fence with barbed wire on it and we're continuously still treating it that way.

Starting point is 01:10:08 And if that's the way you look at it and that's the way you structure the laws, that's the type of energy you're going to get out of the plant. And I think that that's what we're seeing for the industry. So maybe I ask him if I answer this question. Yeah. But, yeah, that was a deep question. It was. Here's a follow-up and along the same vein. And it says, Caesar, thank you.

Starting point is 01:10:34 He says, you've built one of the most sophisticated extraction facilities in North America. Do you view technology as a tool to enhance the plant? Or does it risk sterilizing the natural magic of cannabis? I think that we need to be careful on what we do. to what we define innovation and technology as. So I think that if you're, this is my personal belief and, you know, others might disagree, but that's okay.

Starting point is 01:11:05 What I don't want to see happen to the cannabis plant is for it to be modified, genetically modified. I think that people will define that as innovation. And I think that that's a mistake. I think that if we were to go that direction, that would be a huge mistake. And we're going to end up with some sort of synthesized version of what our industry once was to where we're not even cultivating plants anymore. It's just people are making these products in a lab. And I think that we should definitely fight against that.

Starting point is 01:11:38 And so when I think of innovation and technology, I hope that it doesn't go that way. That said, us being an extraction company, the way I do think where innovation and technology is super, super important. to us and the industry is always working on ways of getting more efficient in what we're doing, extraction practices that become better, genetic development through breeding programs that are constantly targeting cannabinoids that you're looking for. And that takes years, you know, years and a lot of experience to do that. And I think that that's one of the things Leaf is focused on. So we do have a program.

Starting point is 01:12:21 program that we're working on just so, you know, once we have a couple hundred acres of cannabis and cultivation, we will be planting in blocks specific to certain extraction lines to help with yields. And we know which plants work better through the hydrocarbon line versus the solvent line versus the ethanol line. And then I think that there's harvesting techniques, mechanizing certain things to get more efficient, get a stronger return. turn on investment and keep your cost down. That's the way I think of innovation. But like what I would, like I said in the beginning,

Starting point is 01:13:00 I just, what I don't want to see the industry do is get to the point to where we're using CRISPR technology or genetically modifying the plant just because we, you know, the same way that ag has done that. And that's a whole other conversation, you know. But yeah, that's my personal thoughts around. I love it. It speaks to the, because especially since you guys are putting up such a ginormous farm, like that is a gargantuan farm you guys are putting together. Like what, how do you maintain the

Starting point is 01:13:32 soil and like just the environment and the ecology on a project that big? Let, let nature do its thing, you know, don't, don't use synthetic nudes. And, you know, so we try and we farm organically and we plant cover crops and rotate crop that's these are all the things that we're going to be doing is rotate certain things that we've got a hundred and something cattle on the feet on the farm now so on the off season those cattle will be walking all over the field and shit and then pissing and doing what you know mother nature does and so help promote that as much as possible and and don't use um uh chemicals and synthetic fertilizers that undermine undermine that process Yeah, I'm so stoked to see you guys breaking ground on that, and I can't wait to follow along and just watch the story unfold. I think it's beautiful. In both cannabis and Bitcoin, there's this tension between preserving legacy and embracing the future. How do you navigate that paradox? I want to make sure I understand the question.

Starting point is 01:14:42 The paradox between Bitcoin and cannabis? I think what Caesar's saying is, the preserving legacy and embracing the future, be it in Bitcoin or in cannabis. Yeah. I think when it comes to preserving the legacy, you know, it's just like like we discussed earlier in the conversation, it's just like not losing side of where we came from, staying true to our core values and the things that like originally attracted us to the cannabis plant and to this industry as we shift into like a more digitized like Bitcoin is this new technology, right? And so it's like the difference of like, do you want to drive a Tesla or do you want to drive a 1982 Chevy, you know, and it's like people are going to be on either side of that fence, right? I think me personally on the car side, I'm going with Chevy. But I think that Bitcoin, Jamie Worm is a guy that I brought onto the company to help us with this Bitcoin strategy. And one of the things that he always says is that cannabis needs Bitcoin. And I think that he's,

Starting point is 01:15:48 what he means by that and i think he's correct is that cannabis needs this industry has been so beaten down since legalization has happened and like so many people are going under our our assets are declining in value we're unable to raise capital the same way that other industries are able to raise capital we're unable to use banks we're marginalized you know operation choke point one point oh and then bitcoin was two point oh like both industries have kind of kind of been through the same struggles and hurdles. And I think that Bitcoin gives, if it's utilized correctly, gives the cannabis industry a way to offset a lot of the undermining that we go through and a way to preserve the integrity and the strength of our balance sheet. And there's

Starting point is 01:16:35 been a lot of public companies that have already gone this way. I leave, you know, as we go down this road, would be the first cannabis company to do it. But I strongly believe that if we go this direction and were proved right, which I believe that we will be. Other cannabis companies will follow suit. I've already had a bunch of other companies reach out to me to like have me explain to me. They're interested. They're looking at the same set of headwinds and issues that that we're looking at. And so I think that Bitcoin has a way to preserve not only leaf, but the cannabis industry by driving excitement into the industry, by giving us a better way of transacting. with each other. If I want to send you $500,000 on Sunday at one o'clock, George, I can do that.

Starting point is 01:17:21 And no one can stop me. And it costs me 10 cents to do it. If I want to do that through a banking system, if you've gone through the right hurdles and I've gone through the right hurdles, we're both paying a percentage to do that transaction if they even allow for it to go through. And, you know, you do $30, $40, $50 million a year. You add up all these additional fees. It's a big expense. And I think Bitcoin solves a lot of that. So I think that, yeah, I think what he's asking, or like the general question is you've got this legacy industry that is coming from something that is organic, a plant, an agricultural industry and a product that is there to help humanity. I also see Bitcoin as a digital way of helping humanity. I think that, and I think it's super interesting.

Starting point is 01:18:09 We do a lot of reading on this and thinking on it. like there's a lot of correlation and parallels between the two industries that are very complementary. That's what Max and I kind of talked about a bit in El Salvador. I think some of the other, just a couple other things that are interesting about Bitcoin when I think of the strategy is that since we've gone out this, I think I'm in a leadership position and I'm responsible for 100 plus employees, right, that I really do care about. I say this all the time to my employees. I want everyone to make money, both on a,

Starting point is 01:18:45 micro level and on a macro level. And so we're trying to utilize Bitcoin as a way to educate employees that, you know, make close to minimum wage. And it's like, how does this person offset inflation and the impact of negative economies and bubbles and bursts and all these different things? And there's a way, in my opinion, a way where they can $5, $10 a week invest into something that if they look at that and they start to expand their time horizon, they look in five years, 10 years down the road, They're going to be in a much stronger financial position by doing so. And I think that you can take that and apply that to our business as well and to the industry. And so although cannabis at the moment is facing headwinds at the federal level and through banking and raising money,

Starting point is 01:19:33 all these different things that are going on, I think that Bitcoin provides us an opportunity to offset that. And it's not rocket science. That's what's beautiful about it. It's not a distraction from our business. We're not like we talked about earlier in the conversation. I'm not creating a coin. I'm not mining.

Starting point is 01:19:50 I'm not doing anything. I'm literally figuring out a way to buy Bitcoin and put it on the balance sheet. That's it. That's the whole strategy. It's one of those like be the dumbest guy in the room. That's not that hard. And so that's how I see it. I think that Bitcoin strengths or strengthens our company.

Starting point is 01:20:07 It preserves the legacy aspect of our business. And it, uh, I think it honestly puts our shareholders in the best. position possible to make money being investors in our company. I love it. I can't help but look at the Kennedy paper in the background. I think I have some old $5 and $10 bills that are actually U.S. bills instead of U.S. treasury bills. It's interesting to think that Kennedy, you know, was doing a lot with money before he met his

Starting point is 01:20:36 end. And then I just look right up above it and I see the World Trade Center. Like, how have those two particular instances, influence, your ideas about government and money and anything else you want to pull on then. Oh, man. They're up behind you. What am I going to do? Not talk about them? You're around being like this freaking CEO is a quack. Brilliant, brilliant. I started, this is one of the things I do. I collect newspapers of like

Starting point is 01:21:05 events and history that are fascinating to me. And so that's what those are. Those are original vintage newspapers and I've got them kind of all over the place in my office, in my house, and for all different topics, different things that I think are interesting. So, yeah, Kennedy one's interesting, you know, like we keep being told that we're going to get a whole bunch of new information through this new administration. We'll see. I don't know. I'm still not holding my breath on it.

Starting point is 01:21:34 But yeah, as far as monetary stuff goes, yeah, when Kennedy was in office, one of the things that they were trying to get him to. to do was to depeg the dollar from silver. Nixon had already done it, I believe in 1971, and took us off the gold standard. And someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong. That's been a long time since I've read all of it. But I think that we were still on the silver standard. And that was one of the things that they wanted Kennedy to do, amongst other things. And he pushed back against it and was assassinated. And shortly after that, we ended up in the wars that he didn't want to go to. And then they put his face on the last, what I believe was the last minted silver coin ever

Starting point is 01:22:15 minted was with Kennedy's face on it, was the silver dollar. And that was in 1964. Yeah. So interesting. I'll go ahead. I was just going to say, if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, it seems like we're right back in it again. When I start looking at like the psychedelic revolution and I see it spilling out of the medical container, I see psychedelic science coming up and people talking about buying school buses and driving them down there.

Starting point is 01:22:51 And, you know, we're just talking about the Kennedy and now we have Bitcoin. It's interesting to think about how patterns emerge. Maybe you could talk a little bit about patterns that you see that may or may not be similar to now versus the 60s or just patterns in your own life that you pay attention to. Yeah. That's another good question. I was just reading something. There's this book. Where is it?

Starting point is 01:23:13 I'm reading it right now. It's a great book. You guys should all read it. It's called the big print. I don't see it. It's not within arms distance. But it's talking about these 80-year cycles that we go through. And man,

Starting point is 01:23:26 it's escaping me what the cycle's called. But it's essentially talking about what you're talking about, how every 80 to 100 years we go through these cycles where, like, you know, same thing in fashion or whatever. It is one minute. It's one thing's in fashion. Ten years later it comes back around and you're like, oh, I remember when that was popular last time.

Starting point is 01:23:47 But yeah, I think with what's going on with the world right now, there's definitely a push and a movement right now that I'm seeing where people are waking up to, on the economic side on what sound money is. There's a lot of people that sound like Ron Paul or, nowadays where this guy was out there kind of preaching this stuff, you know, 40 years ago by himself. And so it'll be, yeah, interesting to see what happens here with the Fed, with what happens with Bitcoin. And, you know, that's one of the things I'm excited about for leave. Honestly, it's like it is, it's taxing being in an industry that is constantly being hit with

Starting point is 01:24:34 headwinds. You know, when you're trying, you're freaking hardest. You know, you got a badass team. on everyone's rowing in the same direction and you're doing everything, you know, to the best of your ability, you're doing everything, right? And you're still like, why do I feel like I'm not getting hit? And anyone that's listening, I'm sure that you guys can relate to that in your personal lives, right? It's like, what is it about what's going on right now where I can't seem to feel like I'm getting ahead? I feel like there's always this sense of like stress and fatigue. And I can't necessarily put my finger on what it is. But I think that like most people that I talk to, my friends, my family, everyone kind of has that right now. And it's been going on for a while.

Starting point is 01:25:13 And I personally am a believer that the problem is at the very crux, the root of the issue is our money. I think that our money has been, we have cancer in our money. And it has metastasized globally and all of these different industries and societal decision making and things that we're going through right now really has to do with unsound money. And I think that Leif embarking on the direction that we're going right now, I think it's the right decision for our company for a bunch of different reasons. But I also think that governments starting to adopt Bitcoin, it's hopefully a way to take a departure away from centralized banking, which I think a lot of this is where a lot of these issues are coming from. So, and back to, I guess, bring it back to your question on the cyclical

Starting point is 01:26:06 nature of that. You know, the Fed was, the law was passed in 1913, so we're, what, 120-ish years into that. And so I guess, you know, if you look at cycles and if this, these cycles that a lot of economists and people a lot smarter than myself talk about were in that time frame, you know, 100 years, it's been 120, and I think it's definitely time for something to change. I love it. There's another book that echoes a lot of this, and it's called The Fourth Turning. It talks a lot about, like, every hundred years, like there's this giant war. There's these problems. But it's also incredibly insightful in talking about the role of different generations,

Starting point is 01:26:46 like Generation X is this bridge between boomers and millennials. And, like, we have this interesting knowledge where, you know, we're like the last feral children on some level. So we need to take what's good from the boomers and pass it down. But it's just, it's fascinating to talk about cycles and patterns because they're everywhere. You spoke about it earlier when you were getting your hands dirty and in the soil and understanding the relationship between plants and how that's been able to help you foster relationships with people. It's, I don't know, I zook out on patterns and cycles, man. They're everywhere.

Starting point is 01:27:16 And I feel like it's a language that if people pay attention to, you can really make huge changes in your life. What are some patterns that you have noticed in yourself since you've started working with Leith and building this team and moving out of state? I think that, well, I think the one that you just mentioned is one that I could definitely look at, you know, work. working with plants and learning how to grow plants definitely is something that I've taken into being a parent and like the same thought process around like how do you raise kids and also then take it a step further with the company. It's like taking that same kind of thought process into like how do you grow employees? How do you grow culture? How do you know, it's the same, it's the same thought process.

Starting point is 01:28:01 It's the same pattern. Same thing. Just I'm doing it with it in a different context. Other patterns that I noticed in my life, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what else I would say to that one other than, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Sorry. Not at all.

Starting point is 01:28:25 It's beautiful. I see that pattern there. And I think it also talks and it opens a segue into from building your first plant to building a company to building a team. And now you're expanding into New York. What does that look like? Like, is it a different world in New York that you guys are moving into? are there a lot of the same things?

Starting point is 01:28:42 Or what can you tell us about the expansion of leaf into a multi-state corporation? Yeah, that's, I guess, another pattern. Yeah, it's exciting for us. For sure, you know, we spent 10 years so far in this legal cannabis world in California. And I kind of say this every time I talk about it, it's like, man, I feel like we've learned so much. And we've made all these mistakes, and we've learned from those mistakes and are finally at a point to where I feel. like it's time for us to move into a new market. And so for a number of different reasons, I like the idea of New York. New York's been culturally, whether people realize this or not,

Starting point is 01:29:22 even through the legacy days, New York has always been a client of California. And I think that New York ends up being this massive market. It's always had a big cannabis culture to it, the same way that California has. I mean, it's a massive consumption market. So I think it ends up being this very, very big market. They're fans of concentrates, which is what we do. And so for us, what that looks like is we're purchasing a set of licenses that allow for us to do the same thing that we do in California. We're going to partner with a lot of that we have a lot of farming relationships that we're here in California that have moved out to New York to, you know, participate in the industry out there. So leveraging those relationships ahead of time so we know

Starting point is 01:30:10 where our supply chain's coming from. And then utilizing a lot of the old equipment that we've accumulated in California over the last decade. We shipped out a lot of the stuff that we had and are in the process of plumbing that all together. And I was told this morning that, actually, I don't, this is where the pirate side of me that I was talking about.

Starting point is 01:30:30 The compliance side of it, I get a little confused on, am I allowed to say that or not? We're very close to being good to go in New York, I guess is a simpler way of saying that. And hopefully I'm not breaking any laws by saying that. But, you know, and then so we're just, we're replicating what we do in California. So we're going to work with the same set of clients, the same set of extraction methods.

Starting point is 01:30:54 We're going to send some of our managers in California and elevate these guys. And I love it because it's like some of these guys have been with us for years. They've become professionals since, you know, they went from legacy operators to professional. operators and now it's time for them to go they can take on running their own facility and so we'll send out one or two of these guys from california and they're going to train up a new team and uh rinse and repeat and i think if it goes well which i'm confident it will then where we will start looking at the next market to do the same thing in in 26 and start going around planting the flag and all these different markets until the feds finally say all right fuck it you guys are

Starting point is 01:31:35 allowed to do it you know that's what we're waiting on i love it man it's it's It's such an inspiring story, especially with so much regulation. And there's been a lot of negativity out there. So when I see what you guys are doing, man, I'm like the biggest fanboy. Like here you are in a climate that's not very conducive to growth. And you're like, fuck it. We're going to grow anyway. Watch this.

Starting point is 01:31:59 And I think that that just speaks to the heart and soul of like America. Like so many of us are like, we're going to do it. And there's nothing you can do to stop us. You could try. But this is good. We have a great team. we're going to build, man. It's so inspiring. And I know lots of my listeners are feeling the same way. Is it feeling the same from starting the company and then moving into a new district? Or is it like a

Starting point is 01:32:20 little bit of a different feeling? How does that feeling feel for you? It's a little different. It's a milestone. You know, that's the way I look at it. It's like it's going to be this like celebratory milestone thing of like, okay, cool. We did it. Starting the company is special. It's a special set of years that, you know, that's just full of excitement and challenges. And once you're in it and then you're like the thing's going now and the motor is running, that's kind of the way I feel about it now. It's a different, it's, and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to belittle it because it is exciting to do. And it's like, wow, look at this.

Starting point is 01:32:58 We're now moving into all these other states. But they're different. They're different in the way that I view them. And that's one of the things, honestly, I think that is like back to what we were talking about, like, what I was trying to get out of psychedelics was like not being so business. Mike, being able to take a moment to recognize that like, okay, cool, we did something amazing. We accomplished something. I typically, like, it's the second we hit the milestone, I'm like on to the next. And that's one of the things that I don't think, I think it's okay.

Starting point is 01:33:33 for you as an individual to be that way, but I don't think it's fair to the team that you have to expect them to be that way or to not take a moment and say, guys, you guys, it's because of all the hard work that you guys have put in here that we've been able to do this and you should all take a moment

Starting point is 01:33:50 to pat yourself on the back. That's one thing that I've definitely worked on getting better at because I personally, I've always just been like on to the next thing, you know, like, so I've been, view them a little differently. I'm definitely excited about it. I don't want, like I said, I'm not trying to belittle it. I know it's a big deal. But I definitely, I'm also looking at like once federal legalization happens, then what are we going to be doing there? And I can't wait to see

Starting point is 01:34:17 leaf labs in Germany and Australia and all these other countries that are going to, that's, that's what I really am excited about. I'm trying to build this, you know, very focused extraction company that I really believe could be punched out in all areas of that adopt cannabis. I think that it can be a global thing. And that's what I want to see happen. That's the goal. I love it, man. I think you're well on the way. It's cool to get to see the passion behind it. You know, I think a lot of people are thirsty to see sort of American exceptionalism. I know there's exceptionalism everywhere, but you know what I mean on some level. I think it's, it's a heartwarming story and an inspirational story for people to see if you believe in something

Starting point is 01:35:05 and you work hard enough, you can get there. You can at least begin moving in that way. And like that is what I want to bring to not only my audience, but my family, myself, my coworkers, my friends is like, look, we can. No one can tell us to stop. And I see that in you and in Leaf and in so much of the team there. Here's one coming from, who's this one coming from? This one's coming from Ben from Colorado. He says, what's the most profound lesson? Cannabis has taught you, not as a product, but as a teacher in your life's journey. The most profound lesson. I don't know if this is this answer.

Starting point is 01:35:47 I'm going to use this as my answer. I don't know if it'll go well or if. I think that one of the things that I've experienced over all the years, and I got this freaking cat named beans that keeps jumping up here. So I'll kick beans out of here. one of the things that I've learned about cannabis that has kind of stuck with me a lifelong lesson is that cannabis represents freedom it represents an alternative to Western medicine and I know that cannabis isn't the only thing that does that I think that there's other things in this world that

Starting point is 01:36:26 also represent that and I think that one of the lessons that I've learned I've been in trouble for this. I've gone to jail over this industry and I what am I trying to say? People need to be careful about how much government inclusion that we have in an industry. And I think one of the things that cannabis has taught me was that you need to be mindful of that. And that just because a system or a set of laws is telling you that what you're doing is wrong, doesn't necessarily think that that's the truth. And that's one of the things I talk about with my kid. I think that, like, if you were to take, you know, the early days of cannabis,

Starting point is 01:37:15 the way that the laws were written, it's like you're being told that what you're doing is wrong and that you're a drug dealer and that this plant is the worst thing that's ever happened to humanity. And I just staunchly, and still today, stoncially don't believe that to be the case. And so going through the being arrested and all these various things, I think that, yeah, working with the plant, working within the industry, we need to be careful about the way that we structure these laws. And just because someone tells you that you're doing something wrong,

Starting point is 01:37:48 doesn't mean that that's the case. And if you truly believe that what you're doing is right and it's bringing light and positivity to the world, do it. and don't, don't, um, uh, don't, um, second guess yourself on it. And so fast forward to where I am now, you know, I've been doing this since I was 14. I'm 46 years old now. And I look back on it and I can't tell you how many times I've been told that I was a drug dealer or doing something that I shouldn't have been doing. And now I think that, um, not only me, but just the company and the industry has been proven, um, that, uh, we were right. And that, that, that mindset and that way

Starting point is 01:38:24 of looking at it was wrong. Man, that's so powerful. What, it's amazing to think that you've gone to jail over this. That's crazy. Yeah, and I want to be clear, because I've got some friends that have actually gone to jail. Right. I've been to jail a few times for it, never for much, for a long period of time. So, but yeah, it is.

Starting point is 01:38:49 It's crazy over a freaking plan. And, um, no. nothing more than that just a bad set of laws and you know a corrupt uh set of uh law enforcement officials mendicino county running around taking advantage of asset forfeiture and other laws yeah is that is that still a thing like i i know a while back like asset forfeiture was just like cops rolling up on people oh what is that 20 grand thanks you know is that still is that something that still happens today yeah yeah asset forfeiture is one that we got to a reverse. That's a flipped upside down law that has been severely abused. And it's been going on for a

Starting point is 01:39:33 long time. I can't remember who put that in motion. I want to say it was Clinton in like 81 or 82. But essentially, you know, if you don't know what asset forfeiture is, it basically is a law that was unconstitutionally written so that the burden of proof is on you to prove that what you're doing or what you have wasn't gained through illegal means. So in the context of cannabis, right? So they come onto your farm. You've got a car, a boat, whatever, you know, a generator. They seize everything. Your bank accounts, if they could seize your land, I mean, every single thing that is associated with you, they seize it through this law called asset forfeiture. and they basically then put you into this kangaroo

Starting point is 01:40:23 kangaroo court system that forces you to prove that you received all of these things through means that you receive them through legal means and you didn't get them because of doing illegal activity. And it's gone horribly wrong. You've got people that get pulled over all the time. And if you have a thousand bucks in your pocket, the cop will take it and say,

Starting point is 01:40:46 I believe that you got this through illegal activity. Show up in court and prove to me that you didn't. That's what asset forfeiture does. Yeah. So it still goes on to what extent. I don't know. There was a super interesting article I remember reading in San Francisco Times, I believe it was. And this was about a decade ago where there was, it was an asset forfeiture article or an article on asset forfeiture and talking about California and the size of the amount of money that was seized in each one of these counties in California. So LA County being number one. and it was like hundreds of millions of dollars.

Starting point is 01:41:21 And then the number two county was Menacino County, which is wild. And the article was basically saying, how is this possible? You've got L.A. County that's got millions and millions of people in it. And I'm making the number up, but it's it seized $100 million worth of assets. And then you've got Mendocino County that had a population of $85,000. And it's, and it seized $90 million, like just shyly, just right below. LA County and the whole thing was from the cannabis industry. It was because the district attorney that came in at the time came in and just absolutely

Starting point is 01:41:56 went hand with that law and used that to the county's benefit and seized everything that wasn't stapled or glued to the ground. So yeah, it still goes on. Not just in our industry either, but it, you know, that's a poorly written law that we've got to get rid of. It's mind-blowing to think. I can't imagine having a farm, having your dream up and running, and someone just comes in and is like, gone, taking this. It's got to be devastating to everybody, you know, it's mind-blowing.

Starting point is 01:42:35 Yeah. Yeah, it happened all the time. I mean, from 2005 to 2015 was when it went berserk, yeah, where they just really started going from farm to farm to farm. and it was like you could all of a sudden tell that like this they've like weaponized this this law against the industry as a way to eradicate it they're like we're done with it we don't want this industry anymore and so how are we going to get rid of them because technically you're not really breaking the law you know as long as you had your 215 medical paperwork together and you're playing by the rules you weren't breaking the law so they had to go out the industry

Starting point is 01:43:14 in a in another way similar to what they did in san diego with dispensaries and even in LA. It's like they couldn't legally shut down these Prop 215 dispensaries because legally they weren't doing anything wrong. So if it made it to court, a judge would look at it and be like, I don't know what you want me to do with this. They're not doing, they're not breaking the law. So what they started doing was going after the landlords of these buildings and throwing these crazy penalties or saying that they would seize their real estate through asset forfeiture. And that's how they were able to get rid of everybody. Wow. Yeah. It's mind-blowing to me.

Starting point is 01:43:52 Here we go. Who's current in over here? This one is coming. This one says, entrepreneurs often talk about building something bigger than themselves. Do you see leaf brands as a legacy to leave behind or as a living organism that evolves beyond its creator? Yeah, I'd like to, I'd like the ladder. I'd like to see the ladder.

Starting point is 01:44:14 You know, I mean, my job, being a public company, my job is to, to ensure that the company is successful and that the investors make money, right? And so, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. That is, that's what I'm working on. That said, I think that there's a way for us to build something that is strong enough and well thought out enough to where you can swap me out, you know, like, and bring in someone else that, you know, understands the industry and they take it from, that's my goal. I mean, I want to set this thing up in a way to where, you know, I can eventually,

Starting point is 01:44:49 go spend more time with my kid and read more books, you know, and not be just grinding every single day. So that's the goal. I think that if I could choose one or the other, I'd like to set it up to where it becomes a larger company and is strong enough on its own to survive and it continues to just keep marching along. That said, you know, with where the cannabis industry right now is right now, it's like there's a lot of consolidation that's happening and that needs to happen. to continue to happen. And if Leaf was to be in a situation to where we were rolled into a bigger strategic portfolio

Starting point is 01:45:30 of companies later down the road, I don't think Leaf's prepared for that now. But I think that it just depends on which way a lot of the rules go here over the next handful of years with rescheduling, safer banking, federal legalization. A lot of that determines kind of, I think, the direction and the direction the decision-making process surrounding that.

Starting point is 01:45:54 Yeah, it's an amazing, it's such an amazing story, Micah. I'm so thrilled to get to hang out with you today and talk to it. I feel like we just kind of scratched the surface even coming up on this two-hour mark. But, man, we haven't even got the Bigfoot or. Yeah, like I got a few more questions. You're okay on time for maybe a few more? I'm good. Yeah, let's go.

Starting point is 01:46:18 Okay. Okay. If you could change one thing about how society perceives cannabis, not just legally, but culturally, what would it be? I think that I would, if I could change one thing, I would like to have more of it an emphasis on the medical side of the industry. And that's like a much higher level like, man, globally, if I could wave a magic wand, it'd be like, hey, let's get people to really focus and use cannabis. medicinally as well as recreationally i think that that's one thing i think if i was to take it down to 10 000 feet versus 30 000 feet i would say the industry's got to get off of this whole potency thing i think like that's one i don't know where we went wrong on that one but it's just such a dumb thing that the industry is and the consumers have jumped on so and for those of

Starting point is 01:47:15 you who don't know what i'm talking about what you know we have to test our products before it goes to market in that testing process, the lab comes back and tells you what the potency is of your product, THC potency. And it's just focused on THC. It doesn't take into account all of the other terpenes and other cannabinoids that make that strain or that product special. I think that that's one thing. We went wrong somewhere, and that's one thing that I would say we should figure out how to change that.

Starting point is 01:47:45 You think that comes with marketing? Like when I look at wineries, like no one cares about the alcohol. content and wine. Like they care about, where was this grown at? What, you know, what are the, what's the, like, I can taste the oak in there. How does it make me feel? Like, how do we bridge that gap between potency and all the turpines and all the other effects on there? And what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think it's education. I think you just need, you need the brands to be preaching that message as well. It's only to their benefit, too, because, you know, a lot of products don't make it to market or don't start to sell well solely because they didn't have

Starting point is 01:48:21 the right potency, you know, and it's stupid. And the product could be a freaking fire. It could be amazing. And, and, uh, it doesn't make it to market. People pass on it. And it's, uh, so it's unfortunate. So I think a lot of it is education you need. Um, and I, and I do, I see this more, I see more groups talking about. There's a group here in California called Echo now that's like a self-policing certification process that's like focused on pesticides, metals, and microbials, and they're taking a step beyond what California is saying is the standard is. I think that some of the leadership over there are saying the same thing that I'm saying. I see some of the leadership around some of the larger retail groups are all saying the same thing.

Starting point is 01:49:05 And it's weird because the people that are actually the operators in the industry and a lot of the bigger companies, we're all saying the same thing. We realize we're like, I don't know, where are we want wrong? on this, but this is a mistake. We need to, we need to fix this. I think it's just a matter of education and educating consumers at the retail level as they come in and just, you know, like, hey, just so you know, just because the thing says 30% on it, this one over here at 21% is better than, you know, and here's the reason why. Yeah. What about trends when you, like, you have this incredible extraction facility and you have this huge farm like it seems to me that

Starting point is 01:49:47 on some level you would be able to see okay this we got this many gummies going out we have this much extracts going out like is there a trend in the younger generation that uses cannabis differently does anybody smoke a joint anymore yeah yeah they do yeah for sure and uh you know and i don't want to see that go away even though i'm a i'm in the concentrate business you know I think that there's, but no, there are trends. I think California for the most part is kind of split down the middle. 50-50, you got flower sales. A lot of California is made up of indoor sales.

Starting point is 01:50:25 It's one of the things I was incorrect on when I originally was like kind of predicting the future in the early days of our business. I thought sungrown would be the way California would go. And clearly I was wrong on that. Still makes up a big portion of, the market, but when it comes to flower sales in California, indoor flowers seems to be the dominant product that people go after. In other markets, though, like New York, Jesse has actually posted something the other day that showed that concentrates are actually larger than the

Starting point is 01:50:58 flower sales in New York. And I know that that's the case in a couple other markets as well. So yeah, those are the trends that we look at trying to figure out, you know, it's not the only deciding factor like do we go into a market based on do they like concentrates or not but it is something that we do look at and I think that concentrates are gaining traction for sure edible as beverages especially vapes continue to gain market share so um seems to be the direction that it's going I love it like it's interesting especially beverages you know when I was growing I'm almost 50 and so growing up like your 21st birthday people go to Vegas you know you go out, you get hammered, drink all these drinks or whatever.

Starting point is 01:51:42 But, like, I'm beginning to see a world where, instead of people going out and getting, like, a, I don't know, like a nice mixed drink, like, they can order a cannabis product. And, like, it changes the entire landscape of the event or it changes the landscape of the experience because it's a total different sort of state of awareness. What are your thoughts on that? I think that that's absolutely true. I think that, especially with younger people, I'm definitely not, they're just people that I know. Not necessarily, this isn't, I'm not pulling this from like a statistic that I saw, but people that I know,

Starting point is 01:52:19 kids that are in their like early 20s are drinking a lot less, a lot less than I did when I was a kid, and are either consuming cannabis, microdosing mushrooms, or staying sober completely. And I think that all three of those things are a great alternative to alcohol. I drink alcohol, so I don't want to be a hypocrite, but I don't think it's a great thing for a society at the macro level. So I think that that's one of the things that's beautiful about the cannabis industry. And I think you can see it in the sales numbers. Alcohol is losing market share in a lot of these different markets that they're in that cannabis has come into. And so, yeah, I personally think that that's a good thing.

Starting point is 01:53:02 You got less fights, less death, a lot more happy and happy. Yes, you know, for sure. So I think it's a good thing. And I think that we as an industry need to continue to promote that and find ways to get our message out because the alcohol industry and other industries do an amazing job of getting their message out and undermining ours. I love it. You know, I found that smoking cannabis either helps me surf really good or makes me catch no waves. at all. Why do you think that is? What is the relationship between smoking a little bit and surfing epically on the right left or the right right? There's a beautiful relationship there,

Starting point is 01:53:51 am I right? Yes, yeah. My answer to that is you got too high because that's what happens. Yeah, if I smoke a little, it's the best. If I smoke too much, I, yeah, I sit out there and think. Totally. Yeah. Where's the best place to surf in South America that you've been to? South America? Costa Rica is very good. Panama is very good.

Starting point is 01:54:22 I went to Panama about a year ago to surf. I haven't really gotten, like, the waves that I went to, it's not like I got them as good as they can get. That's one of the things that's interesting about surfing. That's one of the things that's interesting about surfing is that you can go to the best wave in the world. And if you show up on the wrong day, it sucks. You know, it's not like waves always the same. It totally depends on the oceans and swells and all the rest.

Starting point is 01:54:46 Yeah, I thought Costa Rica is cool. And there's a couple waves in Panama that are like for, I think that are pretty dang amazing. Very slabby kind of like hollow type waves. Nice. Yeah, it's such an incredible sport. And I think it shares so much with. nature. The same reason I love cannabis or mushrooms, like I love the ocean. You sit out there and you're just, you're almost in this altered state of war. It's, it's psychedelic in itself.

Starting point is 01:55:13 And it's the things you can think of, just be surrounded by it or be in it, man. It's, it's mind-blowing. Yeah. Yeah, especially traveling to these other countries to go surfing. You can get that same experience here at home in California, too. But there is something very special about, especially going to warm water spots, you know, tropical places. I love Fiji for surfing. You know, I think Fiji is unbelievable. I love Indonesia as well. If you're a surfer and you haven't been to Indonesia, that's got to be on your bucket list.

Starting point is 01:55:42 Yeah, it's like the mecca over there. And Hawaii, too. Like, Hawaii is phenomenal. Like, there's every, some place is always breaking over there. It's amazing to be out there. Micah, this conversation has exceeded all my expectations, man. I'm super stoked to get to hear about so much of the passion and just get to hear about your story and so much cool information in there on

Starting point is 01:56:03 entrepreneurship and leadership and relationships and ecology. And I'm super stoked on what you guys are building. And I just want to turn it back to you for a few minutes where you can maybe fill people in on where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about. Yeah. So you can find us on, we're on X, LinkedIn. Our website is leaf brands.com. Leaf with two E's. We're a public company.

Starting point is 01:56:31 So if you want to take a look at our public company, on that side of the business, we're traded under L-E-E-F.CN on the C-E-S-C. And then we're on the OTC market. We're L-E-E-E-F. And, you know, we're in California at the moment. Farms in Santa Barbara are extraction facilities in Willets. If you're an investor and you ever want to come by, you know, shoot us a message. We're pretty open about letting people come in and seeing the majority of,

Starting point is 01:57:03 of what we're working on. And I'm not big personally on social media. I'm on X, but it's not like a big focus in my life. So Jesse does a lot of the social media stuff. And yeah, I guess off of this conversation, thank you very much for having this has been interesting. I like the conversation. It's less like, I don't know, free flowing, I guess it was good.

Starting point is 01:57:28 So, but if anyone's got follow-up questions, and they want to know more about our business, just shoot us a message. I.R. at LeafCA.com. And that's it, man. We're planting this farm and we're going to move to New York this year. And so maybe, you know, let us get that done. And then we can circle back and have another conversation. Yeah, I would love that, man.

Starting point is 01:57:50 Let's have multiple conversations. And to everybody within the sound of my voice, again, if you're in the San Diego area, check out the Warrior Side Project at the House of Blues. It's going to be an incredible set of talks. Micah, Leaf, Jesse, everybody in the chat. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today. Micah, hang on briefly afterwards. But to everyone else, I hope you have a beautiful day.

Starting point is 01:58:08 That's all we got. Loa.

TrueLife - Micah Anderson - She Was Freedom

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