TrueLife - My Twin The Murderer: MK-ULTRA, Psychedelics, Twin Identity & The Raw Truth The Psychedelic Renaissance Doesn’t Want You To Hear | Lindsay Kent

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Support the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USOne on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingIn this raw, unfiltered episode of True Life Podcast, Lindsay Kent blows the doors off the psychedelic renaissance with zero fucks given.Award-winning filmmaker, author, and full-throttle psychonaut Lindsay Kent joins George Monty to discuss her mind-shattering novel My Twin the Murderer — a psychedelic thriller, philosophical mindfuck, literary prank, and gonzo history lesson rolled into one. Think Ken Kesey crashing Carl Jung’s library while Hunter S. Thompson laughs in the corner.From dosing on the Further bus with the Merry Pranksters, to wrestling with twin identity, ego death, OCD transformation, and the raw chaos of altered states, Lindsay holds nothing back. She explores the dark duality of psychedelics — medicine and poison — the war on consciousness, MKUltra blowback, cognitive liberty, and why fiction might be the most powerful Trojan horse for these conversations.This episode rips apart sanitized medical narratives and calls out the hype, control freaks, and spiritual bypassing in the psychedelic space. Lindsay dives deep into storytelling as rebellion, Joseph Campbell’s mythic lens, grief as teacher, the illusion of identity, and why suffering is optional even when pain is not.Expect unapologetic truth on:•  Psychedelic fiction vs. dry science•  Twin dynamics, alter egos, and fractured identity•  Responsible use vs. reckless freedom•  The sacred in the profane — and why the house doesn’t always win•  Integration, ego dissolution, and letting go of the stories that chain usIf you’re a psychonaut, seeker, rebel, or anyone tired of corporate wellness bullshit trying to own consciousness, this conversation will rearrange the furniture in your mind.Lindsay Kent isn’t here to sell you safety theater or magic bullets. She’s here to remind you that these substances have always been about freedom, myth, humor, and waking the fuck up.Grab My Twin the Murderer and prepare to have your reality politely (then violently) questioned.Keywords & Search Terms: Psychedelics, Psychedelic Fiction, My Twin the Murderer, Lindsay Kent, Merry Pranksters, Ken Kesey, Psychedelic Renaissance, Cognitive Liberty, Ego Death, Twin Identity, Joseph Campbell, Psychedelic Integration, Altered States, Psychonaut, MKUltra, Consciousness Expansion, Psychedelic History, Fiction as MedicineTalk to Lindsay https://www.thehallucinarrator.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Legal Disclaimer / Release of Liability for Podcast:This  content  is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing in this transmission constitutes legal, financial, or professional advice. I am not your lawyer, financial advisor, or telling you what to do.This podcast documents historical events, analyzes publicly available information, and explores hypothetical scenarios. Any actions discussed are presented as educational examples of how systems work—not as instructions or recommendations.You are solely responsible for your own decisions and actions. Any application of information presented here is at your own risk. I assume no liability for consequences of actions you choose to take.By continuing to listen, you acknowledge that this content is educational commentary, that you’re responsible for researching applicable laws in your jurisdiction, and that you’ll consult appropriate professionals before taking any action that could affect your legal, financial, or personal situation.

Turn on. Take the power back. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope you're having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining. The birds are singing. The wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, there are books you read. There are books that read you.

And then there are books that quietly rearrange the furniture in your mind. Today's guest has written one of those books. She's an award-winning filmmaker. author an unapologetic student of consciousness, whose work dances at the intersection of psychedelic, psychology, myth, comedy, grief, and the strange architecture of being human. Her latest novel is equal parts thriller, philosophical inquiry, psychedelic history lesson, and literary prank.

It's the kind of story that feels like Ken Casey wandered into Carl Jung's library and refused to leave until someone turned it into fiction. I'm thrilled to welcome Lindsay Kent to the show. Lindsay, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? George, I'm so stoked to be here. Thank you so much for having me. My twin The Murderer.

It's so good, Lindsay. It's so good. And for some of my fans out there and the people that have hung out, like I've looked at all your different channels, but I was wondering if you can give us a little bit of a background on how the book came to be, wherever you want to take it. Absolutely. So I have been making documentary films for most of my career.

I started about 20 years ago right out of film school, thinking that I was going to go into unit production management and then if folks are following along with the strikes that just happened, there was a writer strike back in 2007 and that completely changed my entire career. So I went into editing documentaries after I had moved to Hawaii to work on Lost and then the writer's strike canceled filming so I never worked a day on that show.

So I started working in documentaries and I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the power of editing because when you're working in documentaries, the entire directing process happens in the edit. You don't really know what you have as a story until you've sat down in the edit and scrub through 100 hours of interviews sometimes. And I realized pretty quickly that that was my superpower

that I could put together a really coherent and emotional story through that process and actually inspire change. I realized very early on, my career that if you grip people emotionally, that's how you can make them or inspire them to shift their attitude about certain ideas. And I was like, oh, the power of this. Wow. What can I do? Like what kind of stories do I want to tell? How do I want to impact, you know, perception in that way? And so that's kind of how things started for me. And then the first time that I directed a

documentary, it was about the 50th anniversary of the further bus. And hopefully a lot of your listeners know a little bit about that history and about the bus. But I was just like a literary nerd in college. Like I wasn't into the Grateful Dead. I never tried LSD. I just had read Kuckoo's Nest. I read a lot of Kerouac. I read, you know, electric-coolide acid test. And so I knew that this bus trip happened. And I was always just so obsessed about the idea of being a fly-on the wall and having been on that infamous trip. And then a friend sent me this Kickstarter campaign, isn't this that bus you're always talking about? Like, what's going on? And they learned that Zane Kesey, Ken's son was getting the bus back on the road and anyone in the world could donate

to get the bus back on the road and become a new merry prankster and get on one week of a 10-week tour. And I was like, holy shit, this is amazing. I have to do this. This is what I have to do. So I hadn't talked to Zane about making a movie. I found out later that he had offers from Vice History Channel, Nat Geo. Like everyone wanted to get on the bus and make a dock. And Zane's like, no, absolutely not. He wanted full control, which worked out in our favor. Two guys from Canada had the exact same idea.

But of course, they reached out to Zane first. I did not. I just grabbed my camera showed up in Madison, Wisconsin, and thought, what the hell? Let's see what happens? and we were on and off the bus for three months. I traveled around the country for almost a year after that, meeting all of the original pranksters that were still alive,

including like wavy gravy, who was obviously the emcee of Woodstock and runs the, ran the hog farm, Ken Babs, George Walker, all of the folks that are still with us. And it became a, you know, a proper movie. We toured around the world with it in 2016. But through that process, I kind of started to become a bit of a psychedelic historian, you know, learning a lot about the how Keezy got his start, why, you know, how, you know, MK Ultra was kind of responsible, inadvertently responsible for the counterculture movement because they were trying to control people's minds with acid. And so for the past 10 plus years, I've just been diving deeper and deeper into some of this lore. And I set out to write a pilot. for a show because that's my background is making TV.

And when I showed it to my twin sister, she said, well, this is really interesting, but I think you know way too much about this now. You should make this into a book. And I hemmed in hot and avoided it as long as I could, and I just sat down and tried. So yeah, that was the start of it, for sure. I feel like that story, so it's such a critical part

because when I read the book, there's so much incredible information, not only about the history of psychedelics, but the attitude towards it, like some of the ideas that people were having at that time. And for me, as someone who has, like, a giant love affair and a long relationship with drugs and psychedelics, like I felt at times like, oh, this person gets it. This is a person who not only has researched or written

or talked about psychedelics, but has, like, a firm relationship with them. And for me, it was almost like, like this aha moment where like psychedelics is back. Psychedelic fiction is back. This is the underground reemerging into the culture right now and all these kids are going to read this. And the fact that it was about twins and you're a twin. People should know this in the book, obviously my twin, the murderer. But there are some real interesting insights. I'm like what it's like to be a twin and alter egos. And I couldn't I couldn't help but think to myself. Like how much of this story is not imagination but remembering. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit.

Ooh. So first of all, as a twin, I think that the public perception of twins is really wrong. Like they're either super hot, you know, sex pots or, you know, the twins and the shining like a, you know, horror deck. It's one or the other. Like there are two polar opposite sides and no one ever talks about what it actually is like to have a walking, talking replica of you that also like has completely different values and beliefs and attitudes about things. Like yeah, so if you're an identical twin versus a fraternal twin, that means that at one point in your existence, you were once one thing. You were a zygote that was supposed to be one person. And to this day, scientists still don't know why it splits. It's like, it's basically like a defect.

creates do people. And it's really wild to have someone in your life that is so different and yet has all of the same memories as you. Like one of the things that is really trippy is that both of us have memories from our childhood where it could only have happened to one of us, but we both believe it was us. Like I think it was me and she thinks it was her. It could only definitely be one of us. So one of us is, you know, hallucinating the whole thing. No drugs needed.

And so it's a very interesting dynamic to explore in a book because it's like being face to face with someone that can be your best friend or your enemy. They know exactly how to tear you apart and tear you down, but also how to save you when you're at your worst. And so these twins and the book haven't spoken in years, they bring out the worst in each other, but then they are, forced to rely on each other and figure out what's really going on before it's too late. And so all of their trauma, all of their crap from from years and years of having to deal with each other starts to come up. And a lot of that is from my experience. You know, my sister and I are very, like, very, you know, close now. But we went through years where we were definitely not, definitely on completely different pages and just, you know, spend weeks where we wouldn't talk. Now I'm so grateful that we

run a production company together. She's an award-winning screenwriter, so she was definitely the first person that I showed the first draft to. I'm like, am I crazy? Is this any good? Please be honest, because I knew she would be. Even if it hurt, she'd be like, Lindsay, this is dog shit. Like, you need to take some lessons or something. Like, wow. But she loved it and inspired me to keep going. So yeah, it's such a fun, layered, like a really deep layered relationship to explore. I mean, this is going to be a four book series. This is just book one. I think you probably noticed with the cliffhanger at the end that there's some space to kind of explore some other fun twin-related things in books two and beyond. But yeah, it's just been a really fun.

challenge to to write those two heroines. You did a fantastic job. Are you, are you Evie or are you Vivian? My sister and I are definitely a little bit of both, but I'm 100% a lot more Evie than she is. And she, like, it was much easier to write Vivian than Evie, though, because Vivian is 100% my sister with her attitude. My sister has that super dry, snarky, witty.

Like, she's always got to come back. And so that has just really, really flowed. It's continued to flow as I'm working on Book 2 right now. Evie has OCD, and I do have OCD. She has a much more intense version of that than I do. But that was a fun thing to explore because psychedelics for me, have shifted my relationship with OCD. And so that was a really fun thing to explore in a book is,

you know, this is written in first person point of view and present tense because I wanted people to be with her as she's going through these experiences, basically against her will at this point, but how she starts to question things during the trip and then afterward and then how things start to shift for her in terms of the debilitating, issues that she's that she's dealing with because those are those are definitely a reflection of what I've experienced and in my own life yeah what there was so many great parts about this book and if you're listening to this right

now just on the audio the book is called my twin the murder pick it up it'll it's mind blowing it's one of the best books I've read in the last five years and I'm saying that because it's true you tackle some pretty big subjects in here too you know there's talks about suicide there is radical moments of chaos in which people lose their identity. Identity seems like a big one in this book too, but maybe you could speak to the idea of, that doesn't sound like imagination to me, Lindsay. That sounds like remembering. And when I hear about you being on the bus and talking to people and doing the work that you do, like those are some pretty big issues to tackle with psychedelics

and identity or suicide. Like, how did that come about? Absolutely. So I think where I want to start with that question is the idea of storytelling in general. And this is what on my book tour I've been talking a lot about. Because, you know, first of all, externally, the conversation around these drugs have just shifted like a roller coaster for the past hundred years. People don't even know that the war on drugs started back with Harry, you know, Anslinger back in the 1930s,

changing the word cannabis to marijuana. All of this was intentional, right? and so our relationship to how we how we perceive these drugs has shifted because of storytelling. But how I have been ending these talks is talking about our stories, the stories that we tell ourselves. Because if psychedelics have taught me anything consistently, it's that whenever I'm in a, you know, a heavy trip, the question usually, you know, comes up with, well, you think you're this, well, what if you're not? What if I just take it and move that all over here and all of this is in a corner and you're still here living and, you know, breathing in and out and who, who are you and, you know,

what are you? And those can be really disorienting moments, but also so freeing because when I come out of that, the integration process for me is going, well, which of these stories is actually serving me and, you know, which ones aren't. And through my own experience with, you know, anxiety and, you know, depression and and with people around me and especially attending retreats where people have some very heavy, you know, trauma that they are moving through. What I realized through my experiences is that pain is not optional. Everyone experiences pain.

but suffering is our relationship and the story to that pain. And that concept became not only a concept, but something that I experienced so fully that now I know without a shadow of a doubt that suffering is optional for me. To where when I get, when I experience pain or I get triggered, I can consciously ask myself, is this for me, do I need to continue to hold on to this or not?

and I think that everyone should have access to that level of awareness because there's a level, there is a layer of peace below that story that we all should be able to have access to. And so in this book, I wanted to explore some of the really heavy things that people are going through and who are turning to psychedelics intentionally. Like in the book, it's a thriller. Right. The experiences that these characters have may not be something that they intentionally go sit

in a retreat and do. But, you know, there are characters who are suffering from addiction and depression and anxiety and, you know, PTSD. And so I wanted to explore, like, you know, for folks who may be suffering from, you know, similar issues who may never have thought about psychedelics or have had a very specific attitude about that story to invite them to think about things, you know, differently. And so that became a huge part of why I wanted to, you know, write this. And to write this as fiction, because first of all, I am an expert in nothing, nothing but

storytelling. I am not the person who has a PhD and nada. Okay, so writing a memoir or a nonfiction book, please, like no one's going to read that from me. But I think fiction is such a wonderful, unexplored, you know, avenue for you. for some of these conversations, because when people sit down to watch a documentary or read a nonfiction book, they already kind of have their guard up. They are expecting you to kind of point a finger and say, this is for you. You should know this stuff, right? But in fiction, it's like you can be

carried along by some really amazing characters and just lose yourself hopefully in a good story and feel something from that story. Even if it's talking about, you know, heavy things, it's just a story, right? And so I think that's such a fun like backdoor way into this room that I would love to explore more. Like I want this to be a movie or a, you know, TV series. You know, I want there to be more myth, you know, more of the Joseph Campbell side of this, you know, conversation. And because also when you're talking about what, you know, tripping is, it can tend to get really dry when we're only focusing on the science side of it. And sometimes it's totally bananas and silly and absurd and weird and wild. And, you know, I want more of the Kesey inside of the conversation to start

coming back and being a part of this. And so, again, fiction is such a wonderful tool to be able to explore that. And so, yeah, I'm kind of trying to bring some of that gonzo vibe back back into the fray here. When I read about Maxwell in a three-piece peach suit with an ardvark on a chain and a glass eye that has a chemical compound tattooed on it, I was like, dude, no way!

Like, just the visual of that. And I think that speaks to the idea of fiction where, like, in my own mind, I probably have a radically different idea of someone else's Maxwell out there. But it's that kind of writing that really grips people and pulls them in and it's like, wait, I think I've seen something like this

at Spirramp Rhino one time or like, I think I've seen something like this once, you know, but that kind of writing really kind of jumped out at me out there. And that brings me to character development. Like all the characters are really well-rounded. And sometimes I'm like, I'm not going to like the detective. But then I almost cried when I saw what the detective went through. I'm like, oh, my God, she's gone. She's gone.

She's never coming back. He loved her so much, you know? It's brilliant in there. And I know you've spoken about Joseph Campbell a little bit, And I want to talk more about that, but can we talk a little bit about character development? Like, are these people that you've known? Are these people on the bus? Are they an amalgamation of your parents and friends and cool people that you've saw that you've made up?

How did the character development work for you? Yeah. I think from the point of view of who these people are, some of them I've had in the back of my brain for years. Like, Jade is me in certain context. my my my alter ego's name is jade and she surfaced in my early 20s when some moron at a bar asked me my name and I'm like jade allanquois and that just became my name I would give people um and uh and so I you know I I had some folks in in my mind and then some of them like Maxwell it was just like pop and I was writing the um this as a as a pilot like just fully baked visual

who this person is. And then in terms of the characteristics that I gave them, I kind of worked backwards from the issues I wanted them to go through and which side of the conversation they were on. Besides the twins, which we've already talked about, that's very easy for me to write because there are so much of me and my sister in those characters. But in terms of the attitudes of some of these folks, a lot of it came from the conversation we're having today in the psychedelic renaissance about who is going to control what and who wants to be on which side of that, you know, conversation. And then working backwards of like, what would make these people really interesting in terms of like what their underlying ego agenda is.

You know, Maxwell, you kind of find out a little bit about his backstory and why he's. He may be wanting revenge and, you know, to, like, get out there and screw things up for it, for the world. And I think that is really well reflected in terms of how we are seeing people fight for access and stuff today. It's like, yeah, there might be someone, you know, being an evangelist for something over here, but they may have an agenda based on what they've, you know, been through. Everything is layered. Everything is, you know, nuance. There's a lot more, you know, going on. I also wanted to explore, I mean, I think the biggest theme of this book and the next books is duality. It's like, yes, this might be the bad guy. But like, is he totally the bad guy?

If he really believes that he's doing the, you know, right thing and, you know, and these are the things that he's fighting for, can you also root for him a little bit? You know? And that's, and that's kind of where I wanted to take them. And I love Shot. Shot. But yeah, I mean, he's the guy who's there to, you know, arrest them and just try to, you know, figure out what's going on. But this is a three, it's mostly a three person POV throughout. And so it's mostly Evelyn and shot and then it turns to Vivian later.

So because I got to expand so much on him, his, he just kind of started to talk to me as I as I wrote. I mean, with the second book that I'm working on now, I'm outlining myself into, like oblivion because there's so much I don't understand that I have to learn. But with this one, I was much more of a pancer, as they call it, where I just sat down and wrote it chapter by chapter. And so his internal monologue, he was just talking to me, which was really cool. That's never happened when I have written screenplays before. So that was really fun. But then the dad character, which we have a few scenes where we go back in time and, you know, we get to see the relationship that Evie has with her dad, William, that was fully based on my dad. My dad passed away in 2007

from hepatitis C. And before he passed, he had like dementia-like symptoms, which some people don't even know is one of the side effects of severe hep C. And so when you watch someone deteriorate like that, he was in his early 50s, right? He was a very young guy that really stays with you. It's something that my sister and I have both written about pretty extensively in some of the screenplays that we've written because it's like it doesn't go away. You still remember certain things. And so I wanted to add that in because there's so much about this book that's about memory and who you are without it. Because like my dad was still my dad, he was still there. But like all of the all of the things that made him like who he was in his mind were gone at, you know,

one point. And so I think that's such a fun and hard and challenging and strange concept to explore with psychedelics because they're like we were talking about, you know, early about what makes you who you are. When you're on a trip and all of that goes away, all of those stories go away and you're still there. It's the same thing. It's like, okay, well, if I am not my memories and I'm not my mind, then what am I? And that question is just, you know, kind of the fulcrum of who I am. And I started asking it way back then before I had tried anything. And so, yeah, there are some people that are fully based on the people in my life. And then others that came through in different ways.

I'm sorry that that happened to your dad. Experience has taught me, though, the closer to death you get, like the more beautiful it gets. And I don't mean that in a negative way. But like, if people are being honest and you've had enough time to enter, grade and you've had enough time to be around it. Like, it's probably the best teacher in the world. And on some level, psychedelics, they stimulate, they not stimulate, but they simulate that. Like, part of you dies.

Or if I look at people in addiction that I've spoken to, or people that have real transformation, or even Joseph Campbell, like, part of you has to die in order for you to transform. Like, we see it in all the Homeric verses. We see it in so many myths everywhere. and if you're being honest with yourself, if you've had someone that you love, part of you dies with them. But there's something grows back there.

It's, I don't know. What are your thoughts on that, on the idea of death and psychedelics? Absolutely. And I think in my experience, you know, anyway, death kind of throws into sharp relief

what you've been hanging on to that doesn't serve you. No drugs required. I mean, when that happened in the life, of me and my siblings back then, it, you know, brought us closer for years because we're like, why are we fighting about this stupid stuff? And it reminds you that nothing it lasts, as Ken Kesee would say. That was one of his favorite things to say. And this is all impermanent and how do I want to spend it while I'm here? Because one day that's going to happen to me in a different way.

But what I really love about challenging trips, and I have had my share, and I'm sure I will have more of them, is that in the middle of it, I can be like, I want off this bus. I can't do this. I can't do this. Usually it's with ayahuasca in the jungle, and it's just way too much, and there's just too much going on. And I'm overwhelmed. And I'm like, I can't do this. I really can't do this. And there's this little voice in the back of my head that says, yes, you can't.

you're just going to keep breathing in and out, in and out. And before you know it, you're going to be laying on your mat, and this part will be over, but there's nowhere to go, and there's nothing to do but be in this right now and breathe in and out. And I think that's such a wonderful attitude for grief, too, because we tend to reach for things to suppress it, instead of feeling it, instead of just being in it. We don't really live in a society that encourages you.

us to be uncomfortable. Where we live in a society that wants us to be, to just be distracted all the time and never be uncomfortable with anything. And grief is very disorienting and uncomfortable. But the only way to move through it is to sit in it. There is nothing else you can do. But be willing to go and sit in that really dark place and be really uncomfortable. and be with yourself there.

And maybe there are some wonderful people in your life that can hold space for that and be with you. But that, for me, with the people that I've lost, I have to move through it like that. And I think that being, having spent that time with psychedelics and been that uncomfortable, that has built my resilience to be able to withstand that pain and to be and to sit, you know, in it and, you know, be with it.

I actually wrote about it on my substack because I think it's such a beautiful parallel to going really to that dark place and being that uncomfortable. Because I do think that we all have that voice saying, it's all right. It's all right to be here right now. You're still breathing in and out. And eventually you will, you'll be okay and you'll smile again and you'll enjoy the sunshine and you'll be present and it will be okay. But right now you have to just sit here.

And it's going to suck. Yeah. There's something about taking a large enough dose. You know, I think it was Terrence McKinnon who said, if you take a dose and you don't immediately say, oh, shit, I took too much. I think I'm going to die. Then you haven't taken enough.

But there's this idea that if you take a large enough dose, you lose control. And I have found in my relationship with psychedelics, like, it's that release of like, okay, it's out of my hands. Like that moment of letting go, it's like for a moment you get this deep breath and nothing else matters. Like you let go. And it speaks to what you were talking about in psychedelics. Like it's it's this letting go of everything around you that frees you. And we don't get it in everyday life.

We have all these things yelling at us, whether it's the TV or the, you. these irrational expectations of who we should be or the radio or all these people that need us. Like we never fully let go and psychedelics, they'll rip your hands off the wall. Like you're leaving. And it's it's so much coming coming to grips with that, this idea of letting go. But I think there's sort of a paradox there because everybody talks about safety and psychedelics, but you have to let go. Can safety and psychedelics coexist together? What are your thoughts on that? Absolutely. I do. I think that for my own work, there has been a lot more of the Kesey intensity, sometimes inadvertently. I mean, one time I took 1,500 micrograms instead of 300. And that was a time. But it ended up being one of the most powerful, potent moments of my life. But I'm certainly not going to go around telling everyone that they should do that because it's not for everyone. And I think.

I think that safety is extremely important in parallel with the conversation around how complex and nuanced these are, because the experiences of psychedelics are as varied as humans. Like what I have experienced and what has worked for me and changed my life is not going to be what happens for you or for anyone else. And some people who have been through some very significant trauma need a lot of care. and a lot of safety. And so I think it's really, really, my whole thing about this part of the conversation

is like, can we just kind of take the foot off the gas a little bit and have more nuanced conversation and talk about and hold more people accountable for the choices that they are making in terms of just like, let's just get this out there and move, move, move. And we'll just leave this part out because we just really want to get this out there. we need more authentic, nuanced, truth-telling across the board and to respect different opinions

about this stuff as well. Like, we are all going to agree. But I think my concern is that because of how quickly we're moving, we may set ourselves back again because there will be some fallout and some mistakes made that you can't take back. And then everyone will want to roll up the, you know, carpet and not talk about these for another 50 years. years and I would hate for that to happen because they have absolutely 100% changed my life, my world. But I also know people that have had experiences where they'll never be the same again because the safety parameters weren't there. And so it's a very complex, difficult,

challenging. It takes time, you know, right? And the other side of that is while we're having safety, while we're offering responsible medical opportunities for people who really need this for mental health, the other side of that is I didn't need it for my mental health. I took these substances for the past 15 years because I wanted to understand my own mind. And so cognitive liberty is such a crucial part of human existence. and it has been for a millennia. And so that part of the conversation, even though, yes, it's not the same as treating, you know, or it might not be seen as as important as treating anxiety and, you know, depression and PTSD.

I think for our evolution as a species, we need access to these substances for people who are ready. But also there should be, you know, education, you know, taking five grams and going to a rave, like there might be some fallout. there might be some things you don't like about that experience and here's why. Maybe that's for you. Maybe it's not for you. So, yeah, more, more nuance and just understanding how layered and complex these issues are, I think. Yeah.

I'm curious. As someone who got to spend some time with the merry pranksters, the Neil pranksters, and be on the bus and your relationship with all the, the friends that you have. What do you think are some of the major similarities and the differences from the last wave of psychedelics and the current one? Yeah, I think, you know,

and this is in the electric coolid acid test when the bus showed up at Timothy O'Leary's house and Timothy O'Leary wouldn't come down and the, you know, Kesey and the bus bulk, like, how dare he think he's better than us? Side note, I ended up talking to Rom Doss directly before he passed and found out the truth. They were all on speed.

And Lerry and all of his and the entire house of Milbrook were coming off a four-day acid bender. And they're like, there was just no way we were going to be able to communicate. I was like, I got the real story. Oh, my God. Such an amazing moment. But I think that, you know, there were, even on the Leary side of things where they were, you know, running, they were doing research and they were running experiments. and, you know, kind of looking at things in a bit more mystical way, there was still a lot of, you know, let's just have, you know, parties and do whatever we want.

But on the cheesy side of things, it was like, let's just dose the, you know, trash can punch and then forget to tell people which one is dosed and people have no, you know, idea what it's like to trip. And then they come and they drink the, you know, Kool-Aid thinking it's Kool-Aid, right? And so back then I feel like we were. we're finger painting because no one really knew what could happen. And today, like, we have brushes, we have tools, we have, we have, you know, ways to understand what they can do a bit better. But I also think what's being lost in that attempt to, like, map the psychedelic experience

through research and science is that some things can't be mapped because consciousness goes beyond what we understand a science. Like what my, what, you know, mushrooms show me and how they, they impact my life. I can tell you about it. I can tell you how it made me feel and maybe you can just keep track of how it makes me feel and what my, you know, attitudes are.

But you can't map why that happened, how that happened, what it triggered in me, how it made me feel. because we don't live in an objective universe. We live in a subjective one. There's absolutely no way for me to know how you perceive green. And if it's the same way, I see it. There's absolutely no way for us to know that.

So there's going to be like there are always going to be limits to what we can see and perceive and create data from. And I think that that, you know, coming back to, you know, a Campbell and myth, it's like it's such a more fun way to talk about how surreal and crazy and devastating and fascinating these experiences are because you can point like a proxy, like point at them through storytelling and you can make people feel something. But you can't ever know exactly what that was like for that person. That's why it's so complicated to try to tell people what it was like in that, you know, ayahuasca dream like, what happened? You come back and you try to explain it to me. And, you know, folks are like, wow, okay, good for you.

That's weird, you know. It's impossible to fully translate it. And so I would love to see, you know, at psychedelic science and some of these other, you know, events more conversations around, around storytelling, around myth, around humor, you know, I wrote an article for high times about humor as an integration tool because it's been such an important one for me. I mean, it's like in as we were talking about like, you know, in the, you know, darkest times of my life. The thing that got me through always was making jokes and laughing, always, always, always. And that's the same thing with, um, with the trip. Like sometimes I see some

really bad shit stuff and it makes me laugh and it makes me, you know, feel things. And that side of of the conversation is way down here compared to the conversation around how can we best map what's really happening and create these as medicines. And so I would like to see a more balanced Keyesian side of the storytelling conversation. That does not mean that I recommend dosing the punch or anything like that. Responsibility, guys. But I think that these substances, are also a blast, and they're all so weird and funny. I love that, you know, Dennis Walker gets that and he started this, you know, retreat. You know, I think that's so awesome.

I think there are going to be others who follow suit, hopefully. Yeah, so I, that's the part of the, of the, you know, balance shift that I would like to see change a bit. Yeah, I agree. It's interesting to see, first of all, I'm grateful to even be a part of it and see this world of psychedelics, emerging. But sometimes I wonder about that the medical containers is like too constricting. You know, when you look at the medical container like the DSM, like you just see all these ailments. And sometimes I wonder if many of these ailments, and I'm not talking about serious debilitated disease, but maybe some people could be served with like three grams, a joint in a concert.

Maybe that could be just as good as going to someone to tell your problems. too. Like, if you just had a really good friend in a really good time and had some awesome jokes and saw like a good show, like that might go a long way in fixing some issues out there. But, you know, there's some other parts, too, that when I was reading through some of these lines, there was quite a few that stuck out with me. Freedom with uncertainty is richer than comfort and change. I think that speaks volumes of who Lindsay is. Is that fair to say? Yeah. That was Maxwell. Yeah, I mean, like, and there's definitely some of what Maxwell believes that is what I, you know, believe. You know, I think he's obviously taking it to like a 12 out of 10 in a lot of ways. He just, you know, he just sees this as a revolution, damn the consequences.

But it's fascinating to me how much the conversation around these substances is about control, when we've already been there, we bought that T-shirt, right? Like, MK Ultra try to do that. Like, hello, here we are. We know what happens. It's like, to me, when I hear about some of these people

trying to patent things like set and setting, I'm like, I think you need to do more drugs. Totally. When you have these experiences, you realize, like, how insane it is to try to control anything, how life is, like, it's impossible to control.

And then you develop a different, you know, ego too, where you're going, why do I have to do this where I make all this money and I own this so that other people can't have the access that they need? That's insane. You know, like there's, there are just things that psychedelics teach you. I mean, of course, this is where we're at because I think as a society, our level of, you know, consciousness as we're fighting to get to a higher one, all of the worst parts of this level of consciousness are coming up and being reflected and like, you know, policy and, you know, media and arguments and, you know,

conversations, it's all getting whipped up just like it does when, you know, you've, you know, started to wake up and then your ego just starts, like, throwing the worst things at you, like, oh, yeah, you think you're so enlightened. How about this? You know, like, we're just experiencing it on a, you know, human scale level, which is fine. I have to, to, for my own sanity, have to keep like a macro like above ground view about what we're all going through right now or I will lose my mind. But I think that that is, you know, part of it. I think I am a glass half full kind of less, what you would probably guess. And so I think in the not too distant future, we're going to look back at that at this time and laugh at how we were trying to, how we were like had all this,

you know, infighting over like who gets to, you know, own this experience and like who should have you know access to it and who shouldn't like LOL um everyone's growing mushrooms in their house now and we all have a different relationship with our own minds and so we are a little bit less susceptible to what we're being told um but I think I think it's a necessary part of it um it's just it's like a play it's like watching something you know play out and you're just going this is we've if you just look back in history a little bit you'll see that we've already been here. And so yeah, I think that is, you know, the more that you have these experiences, the more loosely you hold on to your identity is who you are. And so you become

less susceptible to a lot of the attempts at, you know, control through, through media, through storytelling and through fear. Like the more that you wake up, the less susceptible you are to people triggering that fear in you because you're like, I don't, I'm not holding on to those things that I'm afraid to lose anymore. Like, I have them, and it's great while they're here. But they're also going to go at some point. You know, if I'm a, you know, Texas, Democrat, twin filmmaker, whatever, all of those, you know, ideas, that's so, like a nice little story. But if one of those goes away, I'm still here. And, and, and so no, I'm not going to buy into your soapbox speeches about this stuff. I'm going to believe what I want to, you know, believe and be more discerning about

the stories that I'm hearing. Yeah, there's definitely some lines that I wrote for Maxwell. Okay. That are me. That are definitely me. There's some awesome esoteric stuff, too. One that reached out to me is the lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding.

Like, I've heard, you know, like when you hear that, like it just helped me make sense of so many more things. Like sometimes you're somewhere, and like you hear someone whispered something, and it's so meaningful to you. But when I read that quote in the book, it was very meaningful to me because you can, I think the secret's out there.

And the secret is it's not a secret. It's everywhere. But every now and then you get a personal glimpse of what's really happening out there. Maybe other people can't catch you. But what did that line come from? And what do you think of? What inspired that?

The lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding. I would love to sit here and take credit for that. it's not me. There were two books that really impacted how I saw women tripping. Because if you haven't noticed, our stories about what it's like to take psychotropic drugs as women are hard to find. But there's two amazing books, Sisters of the Extreme and Psychedelic Mysteries of the Feminine, which I think is the one Alison Gray wrote the forward in. And the psychedelic mysteries is more about the history of like the main ads and the women who were making the like potentially LSD based Kikian for at the, you know, Grecian Elusius, um, mysteries.

The history of like women being the, you know, wisdom keepers and the medicine keepers. But Sisters of the Extreme is just actual writings and direct experiences of women taking everything, from like opium to cannabis to LSD over the past like 200 years. It's fascinating. Like it's just so, I've read it like five times. And I'm pretty sure that that line is from one of those women who was in an opium dream and came out of it and, you know, wrote that. And it just really stuck with me. It just like I pocketed that and, you know, in my heart and in that conversation that that I can't give it.

way, one of the characters has with Vivian, I think she whispers that in her ear. Yeah, that's a little nod to that really amazing book. I'm actually going to start in the next three books, keeping like a bibliography at the end of all the books that have inspired me. Because I did think that the psychedelic sisters at the end of this book, but I didn't mention those books. They're on my website, but I haven't mentioned those books. But so important. I mean, I love that I get to like translate some of the wisdom from, you know, women from 150 years ago into a fiction book that people can, you know, read and potentially resonate with their words. Like while they were in that, that, you know, trip. I think that that that's really cool. Yeah, building bridges over here. Totally. It's amazing to think that someone went on the other side and found that and brought it back and here you are like, hang on, look at this beautiful gym that's out there.

It's so amazing to get to see that. I got some people stacking up over here. Let's bring them on to the... Let's let everybody talk to Lindsay, except me. And here we go. This one comes to us from Rachel from Phoenix. Rachel, thanks for being here. She says, Lindsay, what belief do you hold so deeply

that even a heroic dose of psychedelics couldn't persuade you to abandon? Whoa. Thanks, Rachel. Damn, that's such a good question, Rachel. I got the best audience in the... long. Man, I think it's probably that, that, like, like, anything can change.

Anything can change. That who I think I am is a story. I think that that's probably what it comes down to. I think what I realize that I am so passionate about that I think will never, ever change is that stories matter more than we realize and that everything that we think, is a story. And so no matter what experiences I have that change who I am over the next however many decades I get to be here, what I would like to always remember and what I keep with me is that this is just a story too. Maybe I'm like really beating this drum about this one issue of the next

10 years. This is just who I get to be. Cool. Awesome. It's also just a story and that can, you know, change too. And so it's probably the idea that I am not my mind, that my life and my role is a story. And I get to be here and be like the weird, wild fun, Lindsay, creative Lindsay that I get to be. But I've also had the experience of where, we're all of like, you know, Lindsay was in the corner for 45 minutes. And I'm just what, what, you know, Ram Dass called the, you know, loving awareness for that really long time. And so I know that everything that I ever think and that I ever get really into and fight for is awesome and and you know perfect in its own way but it will probably change because it's just a story yeah that's an awesome answer wonderful question yeah you got him skacking over

here wait too like there's thank you rachel for being here appreciate it michael michael from alabama birmingham in the house he says i'm a recovering addict sometimes i worry that our culture romanticizes psychedelics the way it once romanticized other drugs where do you think the line is between exploration and self-deception. And another awesome question. And this is something that I bring up in the book because in my research, I didn't know this. But the guy who started AA, Bill, he was a big evangelist for LSD. He believed that LSD could get people sober from alcohol.

And after he created AA, he got kicked out of his own program. for, you know, thinking that. And I know some folks who have sat with Ibogaine to treat their addiction, but then they go to AA meetings and they're, and, you know, they feel ostracized for taking, you know, a substance to heal their substance issue. So I know that that specifically is an issue. But I also think that you can have the, exact same issue that you have had with whatever you were addicted to with any with with with with

any um substance maybe not you know ibegains you know specifically but there's lots of stories of uh people chasing the you know dragon if it's an lSD high if it's mdMA i've known plenty of you know people who took maybe they weren't addicted to it but had too many and uh you know mdMA party nights back in the day because they wanted to, you know, feel something. And so I think it's, again, it's like it's, it's, it's nuance. It's this, you know, really complex idea of whatever is making people reach for that thing, whatever is in them that, you know, first made them, you know, reach for that. I do think these substances can get down in there and heal that. I do, I have had experiences with enough friends and family to believe that. But it's not the same for everyone.

And for some people, it, you know, won't help. It's not a, you know, one size fits all, go sit in the jungle for a week and you'll be done. You know, I think that we need to have more conversations around how different some of these experiences are. We need more opportunities for, you know, integration and having places where people can hold space while people are on this journey, because obviously you might feel better for the first few weeks or months, but then stuff starts to come back. Who can you talk to and have support? A lot of this is so, you know, it's a layered journey and it takes as long as it takes. So I do think that there's a lot of promise. It's a lot of opportunity to really truly heal. But it's not going to be the same.

Like someone may feel fully cured and, you know, and may never touch those substances again. And someone else feels like they were let down and they needed more time, more, you know, conversation. They might need a different, you know, substance or experience all together. So we just need to have, like I said, take the foot off the gas just a little bit, have more conversations about what people really need and how varied some of this needs to be for real healing to happen. That's such a great question. Wow, this is great. Yeah. You know, Michael, I look with your journey. Totally.

When it comes to Iboga, like I've been fortunate to speak to a lot of different people. And one person that I trust is a gentleman named Gareth Moxie. He's currently in Mexico. And his story is, it's a beautiful story because he went through the throes of addiction himself. And he has been working with Iboga for 20 plus years. The guy's amazing. But one of the things he told me in his conversation is he goes, I wish people would stop saying it's a magic bullet.

Like it's not. Like it's not that. Like you have to do all the work. Like you can come down here and the medicine can help you. But it's not a magic bullet. I think a lot of people that are struggling with addiction are looking for this, like, look, I just want this thing to be over. If I can go down and do I bog or they hear some of the marketing or something. I got to do it one time and it's over.

But I'm not sure that's the case, Michael. But thank you for the awesome question. And I appreciate you being here, brother. There is no matter. There doesn't exist at all. It doesn't exist. It didn't take this long for you to get to where you are with all of these years of pain and carrying this with you. So of course, it's not going to just be done tomorrow.

Maybe if you got a lobotomy like they did back in the day, then it's like that whole part of your brain's gone. Like, good for you. But like other than that, guys, it's, you know, it opens a door. It's like, here's the door. And then you have to do all the work of like getting through that door. And sometimes it's harder than it was before. You know, sometimes things come up and it's really, really hard.

So, yeah, having that figuring out how to best hold space. for you know people as they're as they're moving through that if it's with a you know substance or it's not um yeah it's a very complex issue really good question next up is pride am i saying that right pria coming all the way from london england pria thank you so much for being here she says does psychedelics reveal truth or do they simply make us more emotionally convinced of whatever we're experiencing man thank you friah so personally, I think we live in a post-truth society. Where at some point, we had folks who we looked to for answers.

You know, back in the day, it was the church a long time ago. Then it started to be the scientists and the policymakers and, you know, and I think now we are aware as a society here in the U.S., at least, that everyone who has a story to tell or is peddling truth may have an agenda underneath that. And so it's like, where do we go to get that truth? Now, again, glass half full grill over here, looking at the like big picture, trying to hover above it. I think that the invitation we have right now is to feel into what our own individual truth is. So what psychedelics have allowed for me to do is to feel what's true for me, where I'm not going around telling anyone else that they should believe what I believe, but what I feel, which is different than my mind, what I feel to be true, has brought so many amazing opportunities into my life, has brought in the people that I love into my life, has aligned me with a purpose that fills me up and makes me feel whole.

And so that is my truth that I'm always, you know, thinking about, should, you know, is, is this right for me now? Is this right for me yesterday? Is it still serving me now? These are the types of questions that psychedelics have influenced me to ask. Whereas before, I feel I was living out someone else's program. Maybe it was things I learned from my parents that ended up not being true for me, teachers, movies, friends, family, like maybe I was carrying things that weren't for me because I suffered more. I was constantly anxious. My OCD was really very intense. And I was the victim of my own situation. And when that changed and I was no longer that, you know, victim, then the truth that became my truth was what released me from feeling that way, was what made me accountable for all of my choices made me align with what I'm here to do and create and express and align me with a level of, you know, compassion for other people's trip that is not my trip. So I'm not out there judging people without knowing who they are. So I think that what we are being invited to do right now

is to ask what our truth is beyond what we are being told, beyond what we fear, beyond what makes us, you know, anxious. What makes us feel ground. what makes us feel whole, what makes us feel like powerful. And so I hope that we, and it may not be through drugs. There's lots of ways to find that truth. There's so many access points to this room. Fiction's one of those, you know, access points. Maybe it's meditation.

Maybe it's travel. Maybe it's trauma. Maybe it's, you know, trauma is a great way to figure out what your own truth is and where you stand. But yeah, thank you. I think that's where I'm going to leave it. That reminds me of what you said earlier about suffering. And like when I read Joseph Campbell,

maybe suffering is like the doorway to truth or your own personal truth. Sometimes you can't really get to the truth without suffering because you have to get rid of the illusion of all the bullshit you told yourself. Like suffering is like trying to hold on to these ideas that are so, they're not dumb. just they're an older version of you, like your inner ancestors holding on to these ideas and they're not true anymore. Maybe they weren't true before, maybe they were, but I think that's what suffering seems to be is like letting go of these things that you can't carry around. So I would,

I would add that to my friend Priya out there. And two things can be true at once, right? Lindsay, two things can be true at once. Absolutely. A hundred percent. And like what someone that's really close in your life. For example, your identical twin, what he holds dear, what she really truly believes can be the polar opposite of what I do. But I'm not here to say that she's wrong. Right. Right. All I'm suggesting is how does that truth make you feel? What is it bringing into your life? What is it holding you back from, if anything? Or is it fully empowering you and do you feel that it's right for you? Awesome. Fantastic. As long as it's not hurting you or anyone else, I'm not going to question it.

Like, that's fantastic, you know? But being curious about those things, that's where, that's it. It's just, it's being curious, not judgmental, right? I forget who said that. That's a famous quote. But yeah, that's the curiosity to find your own truth, I think, is really important right now. Thank you for that. Amanda.

Amanda coming from Portland, she says, you have a twin sister. Has there ever been a moment where she understood you better than you understood yourself? oh my god all the time all the time i we all we joke about this but i really think this is true i think if everyone had a twin there would be no world wars they'd be like peace like everyone would just be chill because growing up with a twin like we all have our own you know blind spots we all have these parts of us that we don't realize um these these things that we're just like running on this you know program and we're just like la la la la la la la la la la la and, you know, having a twin, you know, she's like, wait a second, that's total bullshit.

Did you hear what you just said? You know, she's constantly holding me accountable for the things that I say and do, and I do the same, you know, for her. And sometimes it's really uncomfortable, but it's always true. It's always, you know, it's always an authentic in the moment expression of you're full of shit right now. And I think you should know. think you should know. And I absolutely, there's so many things about my life and about who I get to be today

that I don't think would be that way if I didn't have a twin. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's really awesome. It's really great. Imagine if Hitler had a twin. Man, the world would be such a different place. He'd be like, bro, what are you doing? Hold on a second. Is this really, should you really?

I don't know, you know. I mean, God. Are you and your sister, Mirr-inich twins? No, no. I have like a little mark here, and she has the same one on the same side, which is both, which we both got from our dad. But we'll, yeah, she's always the blonde one.

She's the platinum blonde, so it is a bit easier to differentiate. But we, yeah, we have, you know, same height, same eyes. Our eyes were blue when we were kids, they changed to green. No way. And when we hit like 13, 14, at the exact same time. It was all, it was very strange.

Yeah. Interesting. Carlos, coming up from Mexico City, Odale, Carlos, how'stas? He says, is there a psychedelic experience you've had that with enough distance you now think was simply wrong? Oh. Nice question, Carlos. Thank you.

Wrong. Yes. And this is my sister's fault. So this all dovetails real nicely together. The first time I ever did mushrooms, okay? We were outside at night, and it was lovely, watching the clouds just move and dance. We're like, oh, my God.

And then we made the big mistake of going inside and watching Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas because we were 18, and we're like, I don't know, is this just what you do? And it was fun. but then towards the end my sister just looked at me and panicked and she said look at your eyes right now

and you never do this you never look in the mirror and you don't really know what's going on and my eyes were like dinner plates like you do and she freaked out and convinced me that I was like the Antichrist left me alone

what the rest of the night and I just sat there like crying for hours I was so upset And I thought she really believed that until like a handful of years ago. She's like, Lindsay, I was fucking with you. Or for months, I was so distraught at having had that experience. I didn't go, I didn't try mushrooms again for two years. That's so crazy.

This is such a good example of like, I'm just talking about, you know, how awesome my sister is. Yeah, she also hazed me in my first trip and I didn't touch psychedelics again for two years because sisters are mean. So yeah, I don't believe I'm the Antichrist. anymore. But I did. But I think that was probably the worst one. I mean, there have been things that I've come back with that really helped me at that moment in my life that helped me move through things but are no longer relevant. You know, it's kind of like I've gotten through that part of the track and now I'm on the next, you know, relay part. And so I don't really have to go back to some of those lessons. But yeah, definitely that one. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, at high enough

doses, like you lose the ability to talk. And if you're out in public, man, you just look like a crackhead. I know from experience. Like, you're trying to talk and nothing comes out and you're just doing all these awkward things. Like, there's probably times where I probably should have been picked up or whatever, but people should be aware of that. Like, you should be looking at set and setting. If you're going to go out and have a good time, like don't do a giant, dose where you're going to lose your ability to speak. It's also difficult to try and understand what other people are saying. Like you just explained that this innocuous, well, this statement that was supposed to be talking

shit, like that hit home right there. If you're on the right amount, something can tell you something and set you off or it can spiral out of control rather quickly, I think. And you become very sensitive to other people's stuff. When you're out in public, you have no control over other people's energy, you know, and all of a sudden it's just hitting you in waves and then it's impacting your trip and you think it's you. I mean, it's just a very, I don't really go out and, you know, public on high doses anymore. That was for my 20s and I made, like, fun, you know, mistakes. But I will just say

really quick, I just want to tell this story because I think that you're like, your, um, your listeners are going to love this. So at the end of the, um, further trip, this is, uh, in 2014, the bus comes back to, uh, San, to San Francisco. And we were all, we were all on the hate to celebrating the, you know, bus being back. But it had been a long journey and everyone was just not feeling it. Like all the pranksters were just exhausted and, you know, morale was kind of low. And, you know, I had been dosing not on the bus, off the bus, every few days while I was filming. And so someone just had some of this like ink colored potentially owlsly acid. I said, let's go. I thought I had taken 300 mics. I took 1,500 mics. That's so crazy. And I was in the middle of an interview on the

hate and the whole world started the tilt. And I was like, oh, no, this is not, this is not going to be good. And I thought my mom had, like, booked me a hotel on, like, hot wire. And I'm like, I just have to get to the hotel and just, like, lay down. Like, if somehow I can just get there. And luckily, one of the pranksters, Mandrake, like, saw me in distress, asked me what was going on. And I just grabbed I'm like, you have to help me. I don't know what I'm doing. He's hate too much ass. And he goes, thank you for telling me.

It's going to be fine. I will order a, you know, Uber and I'll just take you. And on the way there, I'm just going, oh, my God, this is the worst thing I've ever done. And he goes, or is it the best thing you've ever done. That's so awesome. You're totally to tell. Don't psych yourself out. And I actually use that line.

Sherlock says that line in the book because I'm like, that was such a wonderful leg shift in my perspective at that moment. But when we get to the hotel, the guy gave us a suite because we had to wait, like, all of, you know, five minutes to check in. We go up to the third floor and all of the rooms are themed, like Robin Williams and Hunter S. Thompson. I was like, oh, my God, I wonder who we got. And I get to the end of the hall. It's the Ken Kese suite. Way!

The guy had no idea who Ken Kesey was. Like he, like this little, this kid at the front desk had no idea what, when we were. Like I told him we were there with the, you know, bus tour. He's like, I don't know what you're talking about. There were framed photos of like Kesey on the walls, Paisley wallpaper. There was his bio was typed on a typewriter on the desk. And I proceeded to have the most intense download of my entire life up until that point where it was like, not only are you going to make this movie, but you're going to aid in the evolution of human

consciousness through storytelling, like strap in. You're just getting started, girl. Like, and it just kind of came. down and like came to me and I was just like crying on the bed like oh my god this is so amazing and so I went back and a few hours later went back to where the um the pranksters were at this like dead cover band show kind of rounding out the whole tour and I just danced with like reckless abandoned because I felt like I had been given this gift and later one of the pranksters who ended up in investing in the movie to get it made once it came out he said when you came back and you

dance that way that night when like all of our of our you know prankster morale was so low i knew i'm going to invest in whatever she's going to make because it's going to be awesome and it was just it started this like chaden you know reaction of everything else that has led to you know so much has like led to this book and so i'm not telling anyone to have those experiences don't try to take that much and be out in public that was like really dumb luckily i had a wonderful sober friend to take care of me But what are the odds? My mom booked the, you know, the hotel on Hotwire. It was just like a flea bag, like random place called The Carriage Inn,

which is like no longer, you know, in the city. But the one Ken Gesey Sweet on the planet, and I ended up there, like, really high on acid. So I always say that, you know, Kesey baptized me in LSD that night. Man, I don't believe in coincidences. I don't believe in coincidences. That's what you get when you apply a bad theory. Like that's the world just putting its arms around you and being like, come here, I got something for you.

That's exactly. Exactly. It's one of my favorite things about, you know, tripping is that all of a sudden you're just like beeline to the one person you're supposed to meet that night and all these things happen. And it's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't, you know, believe in that type of energy. But it's real. I've had enough of those nights where I really, you know, just think that. that it's true now. It was just a wild experience.

Man, that's 1500 mics. That's fucking mind-bone. Just that one time. I've never gone anywhere near that sense. No. Mm-mm. Amazing. What do I was about about?

Oh, here's one. Thomas, what's up, Thomas? Thomas says, as a father, I struggle with this. If your child asked whether they should take psychedelics one day, how would you answer? Man, that's a. It's such a good question and I'm not a parent. And so what I have to say really doesn't matter. I got it in mind because I may feel totally different if I had a, you know, son or a daughter.

But I think I, when I was a kid and I had, you know, questions, my parents never had answers. They just thought that I was too young to know, but I was really a, you know, curious kid. And there were certain things that I had to find out the hard. because they weren't honest with me. And so I, you know, personally believe in answering questions the way that at their age, they'll understand. Like if they have, you know, questions about what it is and like what it does, there are two, there are, they can help and they can be great.

And they can also really mess you up and be very, you know, detrimental. There's, it's not like a, you know, fully safe, easy thing. And so at a certain point when kids are, you know, old enough, they're going to make those, those, you know, choices for themselves. But I think if they're armed with enough, you know, information, especially if they're in, you know, high school and already around kids who are probably experimenting with, you know, weed and things like that, it's like, okay, well, this is what these are. This is what, you know, can't happen. And you should, you know, be aware of the, you know, consequences of the choices that you're, you know, making. But at the end of the day, if they decide

they're going to, you know, try them, they probably will. So I think it's just a matter of, of, you know, answering as many questions as you can honestly. But yeah, again, like, I don't, I have a niece and a nephew. They're too young to have any conversations like this at all. But their parents, my, you know, brother, like, if they have, you know, questions about stuff, they're, they just tell them, I'm like, well, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what this is. Well, I don't get it. I'm like, yeah, because you're, you know, too young,

but one day you'll, you know, get it. But right now, this is the answer. But again, please don't take my word for it. I don't know. That's a really great question, though. It is. I think Rick Doblin has been pretty public about the relationship with him and his kids. And at a certain age as a teenager, he introduced them to MDMA.

Another, you know what else is cool? You might want to check out, Thomas, is like, like all this Huxley wrote a book called The Island. And in that book, I remember a specific scene where kids at a certain age would climb this mountain and sit in a church with like a mentor. It was sort of like a,

I think Brave New World was like on one end and the island was on the other end. You know, like this is this thing for control. But over here is this thing for liberation. We check out those two books, Thomas. It's an awesome question. And ultimately, Thomas, you are the father, man. you should figure out what's right for you and your family there.

But that's an awesome question, Thomas. Thank you. I got one more coming over here from Rebecca. Rebecca, no, sorry, not that one. That one is, okay, here's Melissa. Melissa from Omaha says, I have to push back a little bit. Isn't there danger that books like yours encourage people to romanticize drug culture instead of doing the hard work of therapy, community, and responsibility?

What do you think, Lindsay? Thank you, Melissa. Thank you. Thank you for pushing. back. I love these types of, you know, questions. Like, I don't, I don't have all of the, you know, answers. I don't, I'm, like, I'm, you know, one person. What I really wanted to do with this book and the, and the other books that are coming out is kind of show, and it is fiction, right? I'm still making stuff up, guys. But in these books, I'm trying to show both sides of this, you know, of these substances. For example, like, you know, Pharmacan, which is the name of the pharmaceutical company in this book, it's a real Greek word that means medicine or poison or both. And so the experiences that these, you know, twins have and are going to have, I'm going to put them through the, you know, ringer in the next three books.

Some of them are really powerful and profound, and some of them are very hard and disorienting because there's both, because there's, you know, all of it. I tried my best to be honest about my own experience, knowing that it is my own experience. And what I'm sharing in these books has a lot to do with what these substances have done for me. And my goal is to invite curiosity for people to discover what that is for themselves. And I know a lot of people might be more, you know, curious. And some people are just be like, this is definitely not for me. I'm never going to do, I am never going to try any of that stuff. And I think all of that is, is okay.

And I just have to be honest that, you know, this is always going to be through my lens, through my own individual lens and my own perspective, right or wrong. It's not, it's not, it's right for me, you know. But I am trying to show that these are not just a one-size-fits-all magic bullet like we have, you know, been talking about. these substances don't save the twins. That's not what happens at all. So I encourage you to, you know, read it.

And then can we have more of a, you know, conversation? Because I love to know what you think at the end once you've read it, what you think the message is, because I'm totally down to talk more about this, you know, topic. Absolutely. Yeah. It's an awesome question on this. And I think it probably speaks to the minds of lots. of people who were like, wait a minute, what are you doing here? Is this the responsible thing to do?

But again, I think everyone should not pass judgment until you've read it all and then done some thinking about it. Like, what is she really trying to say in this book? What questions is she bringing up? And so, but I appreciate that, Melissa. And Lindsay, I really enjoyed this book. I thought it was, like I said, one of the best books I've read in the last five years. I love psychedelics. They've changed my life. And it was like a so much good writing in there. So many awesome, like I'm a huge fan of tidbits or paragraphs or one-liners that stick with me. There were points in this book where I had to set it down and just think for a minute, which to me is the hallmark of an awesome book or an awesome read at anything is when you just set something down and be like, wait a minute, what is this

mean? And I did that multiple times here. So I'm grateful for that. That's a one of a four-part series, but you have other things coming up too. And I was hopeful that you could share with the audience what you got coming up, where people can find you and what you're excited about. Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, I have more live events around this book launch. I have one at the Berkeley Olympic tonight.

And then I have all of July off doing other things. But in August, I'm coming back and I'm going to be at like Cleos in Berkeley. I'm going to be at Kepler's books. in Menlo Park, which is like where Keezy was, you know, working. He was volunteering at the hospital there back in 1960, 1960. And that's when he, you know, made the, you know, further bus. So it's all kind of coming together, all of that, you know, local lore.

I'm going to go to a lit night in LaHonda with some of the like OG pranksters. It's being hosted by the guy who lives in Kesey's house now. So that will be fun. And so I have all of these. I have the whole list on my website, the whole. Lucidnirator.com. I'm working on book two. Hopefully it'll be out next year.

My twin, the witch, and we got my twin, the alien, and my twin, the ghost. And it's just going to get weirder and we're just going to get, we're talking about some weird, some weird stuff. It's going to be fun.

I am working on another twin project with my sister. She wrote an award-winning screenplay. I, I digitized our home movies as a gift for her. And my twisted sister's like, this would make a great horror movie.

like a found footage horror movie. And so we're using our home movies as like a found footage like element in this movie. And it's really good. And so we're in development on that. And I'm also in development on a documentary docu-series project called Art Under Pressure,

which is basically the idea that when societies change, artists feel at first. And so we're like going around the world, talking to sometimes indigenous communities, sometimes just like other, like, you know, sub communities in, you know, cities. Just talking about how artists are dealing with things like AI, climate change, gentrification, things like that, and how they're using those experiences to express through art. So I'll keep you posted on that.

Maybe that will become a show towards the end of this year. That is our goal. But yeah, those are the big things. Please follow me. I also have a weekly newsletter where I'm sharing like, you know, excerpts from the, from the book. And we'll be sharing free copies of the, you know, the next one ahead of time for, for like nerds like me who want to like read it and review it early. And also just like more weird history. I like to focus on some of the unsung women from the psychedelic history chain that have,

have awesome stories that haven't really gotten there due. So if you want to join that, there's a join me button on the hallucinator.com. And yeah, follow me on Instagram and stuff. Let's go. Thank you so much. The hallucinatorator. Okay, all right. And did you guys, Lindsaykint.com? Is that a site as well?

It is. You know what? It's so funny. I should just have that point to the hallucinatorator now because it's all my like documentary stuff. Okay, good. But it is like it is, it's still, you know, updated. And you could watch the show. the short film that I made with my twin called The Split,

which is we also starred in it because my character, Andy, takes ayahuasca, separates from her ego in a moment of total bliss, and then wakes up and her ego is in her house. And my sister plays my ego. So it's this little dark comedy that we made a couple of years ago. It's really fun. It's on YouTube, if you want to watch it. But yeah, yes, all of that, all of that is me.

Ladies and gentlemen, do yourself a huge favor. Pick up the book. Go to the Husa narrator. You can scan the QR code right there on the screen or just copy that image and go check her out. Reach out to her. I'm super stoked. I'm super stoked.

I'm super stoked when you get to talk to you to hang about people this long and looking forward to everything you got coming up. Hang on briefly afterwards. To everybody who joined us, thank you so much for being here today. So many awesome questions. I love it. Everybody, have a beautiful day. That's all we got.

Thank you.