TrueLife - Myrriah Jannette - An Artistic Representation of Healing

Episode Date: June 2, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/www.myrriahjannette.comAs a PhD candidate specializing in psychology and psychedelic-assisted therapy studies, I am dedicated to exploring the potential of these novel treatments to improve mental health outcomes. My research focuses on investigating the efficacy and safety of psychedelic-assisted therapies for a variety of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, and PTSD.With a passion for understanding the complexities of the human mind and behavior, I have dedicated my academic career to exploring the potential of these innovative therapies to transform mental healthcare. I am committed to advancing our understanding of psychedelic-assisted therapies and their potential role in addressing the growing mental health crisis. With a collaborative and interdisciplinary approach, I aim to contribute to the development of evidence-based treatment protocols and help shape the future of mental healthcare through:* research and development* program design* clinical practice* professional growth and collaborationA lifelong learner of natural medicine and alternative therapies, I am dedicated to staying up-to-date with the latest research and trends in the field. In addition to my academic pursuits, I am actively seeking opportunities to contribute to the advancement of the psychedelics field. I am passionate about promoting responsible and equitable access to psychedelic-assisted therapies and believe that these treatments have the potential to revolutionize mental healthcare.If you are interested in discussing potential opportunities or collaborating on projects related to psychedelic-assisted therapies and mental health, please do not hesitate to reach out. I am always open to new connections and opportunities to make a positive impact in the world. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope you have something beautiful planned for the weekend. I hope you got to wake up next to the person you love. and you're surrounded by beauty and the sun is shining and the bird is singing.

I've got an incredible guest for you today. Mariah Jeanette, for those who may not know, she's a psychedelic researcher and integration specialist. The PhD candidate specializing in psychology and psychedelic assisted therapy studies. She's dedicated to exploring the potential of the novel treatments to improve mental health outcomes. Recently, the focus of her research has been on investigating the, efficacy and safety of psychedelic-assisted therapies for a variety of mental health conditions, including depression, anxiety, and PTSD.

In addition to all of that, she is also an expert in project management, program development, R&D, and ladies and gentlemen, a kite surfer, which is a huge, incredible journey in itself. So Mariah, I'm so stoked you're here today. How are you feeling today? Thank you, George. What a beautiful introduction. And I'm feeling great. I'm honored and feeling blessed to be here.

Thank you so much. Yeah, I feel the exact same way. And I'm also excited for the psychedelic space and the sort of renaissance we're going through because I think we are really beginning to scratch the surface of helping so many people. And in doing that, we're creating a little bit better world. So I've been very fortunate, Mariah.

I talk to so many different people. And it seems to me there's this thread that kind of binds people together, and it's this origin story. You know, it seems that people that have a passion for helping people often have gone through certain tragedies, or they've often had a certain type of thing that happened to them when they grew up, or they just have a calling to help people. And I was wondering if maybe you could share your origin story, like how you got to be where you are today, how you became interested in all this. Yeah.

Wow, origin story. So many pieces to it, right? As far as it helping people, I think I was just born naturally, put here on the earth to help people. So I've always been seeking to learn new modalities and new ways to support people on their healing journey. As far as psychedelics go, probably the origin story begins in my early 20s, just experimenting with cannabis and psilocybin.

But more so in 2009, I lost my partner to cancer. And after his passing, I was, you know, going through the grieving process. And a girlfriend of mine suggested that I do an ayahuasca journey. And I knew nothing about it, but I just really, you know, wanted to come back and move out of the grief. And so I did. I just joined an ayahuasca journey on the top of a mountain in the church. And it blew my mind. It was incredible.

It was blissful. It was hard, physically hard. But it really helped me to see life in a new way and to have a new perspective on death as well. And that life doesn't end, you know, just after you die, that there's more to it. So I really needed that. And then I became a believer. Yeah. Yeah. And just move forward from there.

Wow. On top of a mountain in a church, I became a believer. Like, that's, I should write that down. That's pretty beautiful just to even say. I get goosebumps thinking about it. It's so interesting to see the relationship that happens when we're able to integrate loss or tragedy into our life. And it seems like psychedelics are a huge part of that. it really does seem to help that grieving process, doesn't it? Yeah, it really does.

It opens your mind and your heart in ways, I think, that aren't possible in normal, ordinary consciousness. You know, just it's mystical. It's something so powerful that it's really hard to even put into words. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes I think that that is like the magic part. of it, this fact that language fails, like there are no words. So you're forced into like this deep contemplation of how you feel, why you feel, like what's going on? And like, it's that sort of investigation of yourself that really broadened your horizon there. And it's, it really is. It's,

it's such a beautiful thing, which I guess that kind of takes me to the idea of, we know it's a powerful thing to do. We know that it helps integrate. We know that the psychedelic understanding changes us. But you have been studying a little bit about the efficacy, efficacy, do I say that right? And safety about it. Maybe you could speak to that.

Like, are there some safety issues? Are there some efficacy issues? Like, what are you investigating in that realm? As far as efficacy, I think that there are a lot of studies coming out that are showing what psychedelics can be good for. I mean, MDMA for PTSD. And I think if I remember correctly, it's something like a 68% efficacy, which is unheard of.

Yeah. Which is so incredible. And I do work for MAPs as an adherence reader. So I'm really blessed to be part of their psychedelic research team, which is incredible. And I get to watch videos of the sessions that are happening. So I'm really seeing like what's going on in the room and it's really powerful stuff.

As far as safety, I mean, I think it's really great that so many more articles and podcasts are coming out about the transgressions that are happening in the field. And so safety is becoming much more prominent, the topic of it. And people are more aware of, you know, the setting that you go into and who's there. and not only physical safety, but also like the energetic safety because you're just blown so wide open on psychedelics and you're so affected by what's going on with the people around you. Yeah, that's a great point. I'm curious, as someone who gets to see the transformation,

like whether it's a video or whether you're actually there with somebody, for me, there's like this weird break. Like, you know, we're really trying to find ways to measure it, you know, like, oh, well, let's try some neural feedback or let's have them fill out this questionnaire of what's happening. But the real, I think you can see the actual transformation. You can see what's happening, but it's kind of subjective because we can use our words to describe it. And even though you and I can see it or we've experienced it and we know there's a real transformation happening, it seems that the world of science would like us to document it somehow. Do you see a kind of a gap there? Absolutely.

I mean, that's the Western paradigm that we live well. You know, and I have this conversation a lot with people. Like these plant medicines come from the indigenous cultures, right? And the indigenous knowledge system, which are a whole system in their own. And then we have this Western paradigm that kind of what like wants to box everything in and put quantify it. which is really hard to do with psychedelics, but they are doing it. And I think that it is a quest, a constant quest for balance in a way, that there's room for both of them, but how to acknowledge and honor both the indigenous

knowledge systems and the Western scientific paradigm. In my studies, I really have noticed that in the research that's out there, I'll say specifically on Iowa. there really is no mention of indigenous knowledge systems whatsoever. You know, just a major gap in the literature. And I think that's, we need to make a change in that way. Yeah, and bring more of the indigenous knowledge systems into Western research in a respectful way and in a way that is in an act of reciprocity.

I love that word. Maybe you, I know that you have a background and you speak upon the, the idea of reciprocity. Maybe you can maybe define that for some of the listeners who may not be real familiar with it and talk a little bit about that. Yeah. Well, that's actually the topic of my dissertation. Oh, nice. I can't wait to hear. Reciprocity specifically within the Native American communities and as it pertains to cultural well-being. And with this research, my goal is to have, to hear from indigenous voices, ways that we can offer appropriate reciprocity to indigenous peoples. So I haven't completed my dissertation yet, and I don't really have the final answer.

And really, the answers aren't going to come from me, right? Like, it's coming from the participants and highlighting their voices and letting them be heard. I love it. You know what else I love about this is we talk. a lot about psychedelics or entheogens being able to help people through trauma. But I also see what, and I just thought of this as you were talking about your dissertation, what role do you think that these particular medicines play in creativity and coming up with novel ideas? Because it sounds to me like your dissertation is a novel idea. It is this new field that you're exploring, this idea

of reciprocity. I've never really read any dissertations or any papers on this idea. So I'm wondering, And do you think that there is a relationship between the creative aspect of what you're writing and the use of entheogens or psychedelics? Yeah, I do think so. I think so because it opens you up to new things that you hadn't ever thought about or experienced before. And seeing the world in a different way, seeing how it works maybe in a more expansive and vast way. And I think that's probably why most people do psychedelics, as they feel so limited by their just everyday consciousness.

And they want more. They're seeking something more. Yeah. So I guess I would be yes. Yeah. It's such a beautiful thing. I would add to that too. It seems that at least in my lifetime,

and maybe this says a lot about me, but it seems that we have been filled with like so much filler, like even in conversations that I know that I've had throughout my life, they seem so superficial. And when I began really moving into the world of psychedelics, I feel as if the conversations I had became more meaningful. And I mean that in all aspects of the word. I wanted to know more about people. I wanted to investigate the language they were using and why they used that language and what it meant to them and what they dream about and what they feel about. And I'm wondering if you, do you see that same pattern?

Maybe is that something in the Western society or maybe it's something our world is moving to a more meaningful world and do psychedelics play a part in that? I think for sure they play a part in an expanding consciousness and the transformation of humanity for sure. I think it's a very personal thing, whether you're called to it or not. And some people are in summer and that's okay. I think there's multiple pathways for, transformation and evolution within humanity. And so psychedelics will be for some people and not for

others. But yeah, I think I imagine life as every day we're learning new things and we're taking like little baby steps along our evolutionary journey, our transformative journey. But when you do something like psychedelics, you're taking a big leap forward in that transformation. You know, So if people are just ready for that big jump, then psychedelics can be that for them. And I mean, not to exclude that, people have really hard journeys on psychedelics, you know, and people can be traumatized or re-traumatized by psychedelics. Yeah. And that brings back in the safety aspect and who you're with and getting integration, support

after especially a hard psychedelic journey. But I think it's helpful with every psychedelic journey. And I think with psychedelics, the focused right now is mostly on the journey itself because it's incredible and it's magical and everything else in between. But the integration aspect of it is where it's at. It's like how to apply all these insights and these huge visions and ideas and slowly integrate that into your life. I think people can get lost. They have the separation between, yes, I had this incredible psychedelic journey. Let me tell you all about it.

But then what does it mean in your everyday life? You know, and so how to bridge those together. That is really well said. You know, I'm curious how you see this being handled. And it's a question that I'm fascinated by. And I think a lot of people are. And it is this idea of integration. And sometimes for the person that's how.

helping someone go through a journey. If someone goes to a journey and I'm a facilitator or I'm an integration coach or specialist, you know, it's an incredible responsibility because in some ways, I am responsible for helping that person make sense of what happened to them. And it's such a huge responsibility because in some ways, you're helping that person reprogram their mind. I think of like an old school, you know, operator switchboard where they're taking the things out and putting them over here and you're moving the connections around. And I think that that can be an incredibly intoxicating feeling to do. Like, we love to help people.

And all of a sudden, you find yourself in this position where you can help someone. And I think that it can be a slippery slope. Like, it can be intoxicating to do that. And if it does become intoxicating, like all intoxicants, you can do things in the wrong way with a good motive. Does that kind of make sense? And if it does, what do you think about that? Yeah, I think you're right on. And I think what comes to mind is really the importance of continuing to do your own personal work, your shadow work, constantly self-checking and being self-aware. It's just a necessary component of this work. And the responsibility, I mean, yes, it is a big responsibility. But then at the same time, it's like you're just being there to, for the client.

to bounce ideas off of, to listen to them authentically, to give them ideas, you know, on how to make these changes. But it's not your, it's their choice inevitably what they want to do with their life. So, yeah, it's the both hand. It's the responsibility. But then it's also like you do what you can for people to support them in whatever way they need. And then you let it go and let them live their life in the way that they choose.

though. It's a great answer. And in some ways, the idea of the facilitator seems a lot like a psychedelic journey to me because some journey, maybe people take a small dose and they go on a small journey. And some people take a bigger dose and they go on a big journey. And for the facilitator, I think you could argue that it's a broad word and it can mean a lot of things.

If I look back onto some of my first forays into the world of psychedelics as a kid going to like a laser pink Floyd show and with a friend. And, you know, we would, towards the end of our experience, we would be sitting down in the living room thinking about things. And you're just bouncing ideas off each other. And in a way, that's sort of an integration when the both of you are having it together. And it may not be an integration someone with PTSD would have, but it's certainly something a young person in their 20s might have or something like that.

So the role of the facilitator is just a broad term. And the reason I am so excited for everything is because I do think that there's a lot of different people at different stages of their life that need a lot of different kinds of help. And so as many facilitators as we can have, it's probably for the best. Would you agree with that? Yeah, for sure. I think as these medicines get legalized, we are going to have a shortage of people that are trained to do it. Yeah, and I think one thing I noticed as an adherence reader is that each therapist has a different style, you know, and the participant will resonate with one therapist more than the other. So each person that comes to have these journeys is going to pick, like, hopefully, the right facilitator for them that resonates with them, that they feel comfortable with, that has a style that works for them. That's well said. It reminds me of artwork.

Some people like a Rembrandt, some people like a Picasso. And if you look, would you say that a facilitator can be like an artist? And if you do say that, what kind of an artist would you be? Yeah, I think so. I think like if you're creative and art-minded for sure, that really you can view most things in life as art. No, but the feelings that arise, the intuitive hits, the sensations, the listening, the way that it all kind of merges and flows together. I can see that as far as colors and everything, you know, in my mind's eye. For myself, what kind of artist would I be?

Maybe an artist that can create an amalgamation from everything that comes up. beautiful amalgamation of art that is interpretive to the viewer, like every viewer will see it in a different way. I love it. It's a question. I think so. It makes me want to read your dissertation because I think there's a window into your mind when you ask someone what kind of artist they are. And I love that you don't hesitate to answer that question. I think it speaks volumes of your character and how much you care about people. And I think that if someone's going to get integration done or someone's going to have a coach, they should be seeking out an artist because it is an art form. And someone who is an artist has the ability to see you as a work of art, which is back to

reciprocity, right? Like we want to make someone this beautiful work of art. We want to acknowledge the beauty in them so that they can't become the most beautiful thing for everyone around us. And it's a, thanks for letting me ask that question. It's awesome. You know what? I'm sorry.

Before you go on to the next question. to add to that is I think the biggest thing is that I hope that people see themselves as art and can see the beauty of themselves and love themselves for what they see within. And then I wanted to ask you what you would be. Whoa, I'll ask the questions here. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You know, I think that I would be somewhat of a, I would call myself a singer-songwriter.

even though my voice may not be like a high-hitting Mariah Carey song or a Beck song, I think that my voice is more of the songwriter artist. I've always had a big love for lyricists and language and words and stories. And so I would try to be an artist that is a storyteller. And I have found that the best way to tell a story is to captivate the audience. I want to look into someone's soul and try to pick out little words, I think, to describe them. I want to see a little smile pop up on the person I'm speaking to because I care about them. And I know when I do that, when I can connect to somebody with my lyrics, with my words, with my song,

then I can harmonize with them. And I think harmony is a form of art that comes with singing and songwriting, at least on a level that I want to perform. And I feel that I'm really at one with myself and people and the audience. And I feel like it's a, it's a, it's like a, it's like a, not a kind of a right of passes, but more like a, gosh, I can't think of the word now, but like a, like a giant performance that we're all playing a role in. And when you can understand your role and see yourself in that role, I would, maybe,

a performance artist. How about that? That sounds a little bit better. And you're right, it is a difficult question now that I try to answer it for myself. You did very well. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And thank you for letting me explore my idea of what an artist would be. It's pretty fun to think about. Yeah, it is. It really is. Why don't we teach kids that in school? Like, we should ask kids, what kind of artist are you? And maybe in some ways, education is changing because of this new trauma that we're unfolding. But what do you think about teaching kids in school to learn about what kind of artists they are? I think it should be an essential part of school. Yeah, and something that continues to be instilled in them all throughout, starting in preschool all the way through high school.

You know, I think people get lost when they lose that creative side of themselves and they lose that artist within. And they just become so intellectual. you're really like cutting off a piece of who you are. Because if you look at children, I'm a mother of three. I have three daughters, you know, and they all have their own style of art that just naturally comes to them. Nobody taught them. So I imagine if like we all are just invited to continue to delve into that inner artist and not have it picked apart of like, oh, well, this person. and that's a good drawing of a dog,

but that one I can't really tell that it's a dog. You know, like, let's not pick it apart. Let's just, like, allow it to be and allow the person to express themselves in the way that they see. I think that would be part of the healing of humanity, you know, because we're all such unique individuals. Yeah, I love it.

I wish we would get back to this archaic revival of instead of trying to put kids in a box or even adults in a box and say, okay, you can be a fireman, you could be a lawyer, you can be a doctor. Here's all these pre-made, prefabricated ideas that we've made for you, and you can just fit right into that box. Instead, I would like to go back to the old way of, you know, leaders and mentors gathering around a child and trying to figure out, who is this young wizard or who is this young priestess that comes to me today? And what are their gifts?

Let's try to figure out what is so unique and beautiful about them. And then that gives the child the ability to be a unique gift to the world and understand that they have a set of ideas and talents and beauty that is unique to them. And then they can begin to refine those and have their own path. And I know that that's probably a huge ask for society. But I think it's happening. And I think it's happening in conjunction with all the healing that's happening. As we are beginning to heal so many people that have had traumas throughout their life,

so too is our world of medicine changing. So too is our world of education changing. And if you just take a step back, you can see them all changing together. Sometimes I think we forget to see that monumentous wave of change that is coming and making the world a little bit better. Do you think everything is kind of changing at the same time in this sort of psychedelic renaissance that we're in? Yeah, well, I think change is the only constant in life. That's so well said. Yeah, I think with change, chaos happens.

lot of fear. And so I think sometimes because chaos and fear are so loud, that's what people are seeing because it's like kind of on the forefront. But if you're willing to take more of like a bird's eye view, like if you can rise above and see it from the whole picture of like what's happening, then you begin to see like the puzzle pieces begin to like fit together and you can see how things are changing for the better, even though it's scary because you're moving away from what has been known, you know, but then coming back to your breath and remembering to breathe and to trust life. You know, it's interesting that you bring up breath.

I have a really good friend of mine who is, he's part Cherokee Indian. And we always have these amazing discussions, and we were having a discussion yesterday about breath. And he goes, you know, George, I was thinking to me. myself, like, breath is like the one thing that unites all of us. And I've never heard this before. And I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, well, think about it. When you're brought into this world, the very first thing that happens is like the daughter will, the daughter, the doctor will spank you and then you take this breath. And all of a sudden, you breathe in life. You breathe in

everyone around you. You breathe in the earth. It's your first breath. And that same breath has been breathed by everybody on the planet. The same air is what unites us. He goes, and then on your deathbed, you take your last breath. You breathe out for the last time and you release the life back into the world. And it's so fractal because if you think about someone's lifetime, their first breath when they're born, their last breath when they die. You think about the last breath before you go to sleep, the first breath in the morning. You know, it's just in every second you're living and dying with your breath. And it is this thing that connects us. When you're in a circle of people and you're talking, you're breathing, you're sharing breath. And I,

I just thought like, first of all, what a profound statement. And what an incredible statement that comes from a person who is closer to the earth. Like he's, he's part Cherokee. And I can't help but think all these conversations I have with him are wisdom that somehow he has been a part of. He's been introduced to. And he just seems so much closer to the, to the earth. And it seems to me that the indigenous wisdom is something that, we are lacking in life, especially, you know, people like me from from Caucasian acres over here. You know, I feel that, but we're rejoining that. What do you, since you are studying and writing a dissertation on reciprocity having to do with indigenous wisdom, what do you think is unique about

indigenous wisdom? The most prominent thing that comes to mind would be that they honor the mother earth, you know, that they consider our earth to be a living, breathing being, you know, who, and that everything, all life on earth is interconnected. Yeah. And in our westernized paradigm, we've really lost that, you know, and in our government, we can, it seems that they just consider themselves, you know, superior to the earth. And so they ravage the earth, ravage and pillage the earth and take all that they can and without giving back, you know.

And it just is creating a perpetual cycle of unhealthiness on the earth, which then again, if we're all connected, it comes back to within us. You know, how can we be healthy if our mother earth is not healthy? If the air we breathe is not healthy. Yeah. Yeah. I think to myself that, I think it was Alan Watts who said, you don't come into this world, you come out of it.

And when you begin thinking about that aspect of life, it changes your relationship to the earth, that you're part of the earth. And how can you, you know, how can you engage in hardcore resource extraction when you realize that all you're doing is emptying yourself of value? It's so crazy to think about on some levels. But I think it's necessary. I think it speaks volumes of how we make ourselves better because it seems like the same the people, at least some of the people that I have talked to that are working through big traumas are an example of that same methodology.

Like they've just been extracting resources out of themselves. And now they have PTSD. They've been pushing themselves in a way they know is wrong. And it's led them out of balance. The same way we as a society have led the earth out of balance. Do you think that maybe some of the solutions for the individual may be some of the same solutions for the planet? Yeah.

I mean, I think it just boils down to love, to loving yourself and to loving the earth. For more that you love yourself, the more that you're going to have a greater capacity to love others, the more you're going to be conscious enough to be aware of how to show love to the earth, you know and just continuing showing that to others continuing that cycle moving forward within yourself and in every aspect of your life was there was there a shift for you maria was there a time

before you thought like you did now like it seems to me that you that you have been well-versed in understanding this new ideas of becoming part of the earth and maybe that's a big part of why you can help people. But was there a time when you didn't think this? Were you ever like Mariah the capitalist or Mariah the, the materialist? Like, was there a shift that happened before you became who you were now? I mean, I enjoy clothing. I enjoy the beauty of life. I'm sure that there are many ways that I could be more, you know, eco-conscious as well. And I seek to strive for that every day. Well, I feel, like probably many people that in my one lifetime, I've lived multiple lifetimes, constantly growing,

constantly learning, having gone through multiple traumas and finding my path of healing through them and growing. And life is a mix of joy and suffering, you know, the ups and the downs and but trying to find the beauty within it all. Yeah. So, I mean, I am who I am, George. I think I'm always in this way. I'm just 41 now.

So in my life journey, I've learned a lot. And I'm excited that there's more to learn as well. Yeah, I think that's a big part of becoming the best version of yourself is understanding that the learning is always there for you. And there's always more to learn. And the more you can learn, the better steward you can be to help other people. and like being a curious person and caring about the world around you and others and yourself is it's a great way to go through life. And it's a great way to help you get to the difficult times is to see them as ways to learn. And I'm curious, when we talk about psychedelics or in theogens, what, for me, what I like to do, if I'm going to have a journey, I usually take it by myself and I'll sit either.

outside under the stars or sometimes I'll just lay in a lay in my bed and relax and just think about the world and I find myself in a place where I can try on new ideas and I mean like I could try them on like they're a new shirt and I can wear them around and I can be I can be George the scientist or I could be George the storyteller or sometimes there's scary ideas I try on and when I try to hold them and I'm like this is a weird one I'm going to take this one off I don't want any part of that thing, you know, but you try them on for a little bit. And that seems to be something that's very therapeutic for me. And I usually, I'm a big fan of psilocybin, and it tends to be the medicine that I turn towards most. When times are tough or when I have a problem that I want to

help someone with, I'm curious, what's an experience that Mariah uses? I mean, is there, is there a go-to experience that you use? And what happens in your journeys? Everyone is different. I mean, there hasn't been one that has ever been the same. I don't have a lot of psychedelic journeys, you know, but I listen when I'm feeling called to it. I definitely do. Let's see. One that comes to mind was I was in Peru and in a yurt on top of an Andy's Mountain and had an ayahuasca

journey and I purged and I could see that there were these blob-like beings in the that I perched out. And I just remember, you know, in that altered state thinking, like they are so incredibly unintelligent. They can't even figure out how to crawl out of the bucket. They're just sitting there like trying to get out, but they're, you know, they can't find their way. And in the next day or two of integration, I was like, what does this mean that I, you know, purged these kind of really stupid beings or entities out of my body? And I realized that it was a belief system that I had carried about myself because I struggled in mathematics and primary school. And so I just kind of like had this belief system that I wasn't smart enough. And so when I

purged out these beings. It was like no longer in my body. I didn't have to carry it around. So yeah, each experience has been, you know, really like profound and taught me in different ways. And that was the first one that came to mind. But I enjoy ayahuasca, although it is physically exhausting psilocybin,

has been a friend of mine for sure. I tend to stick with plant medicines, medicines that come from the earth. Very nice. I'm always fascinated to think about the world of symbology. You know, it seems to me to be its own language, and sometimes it seems to be more, not only intuitive, but more comprehensive than words.

And I find myself on different journeys or even after a journey using symbols to identify different meanings, the same way you saw like these blobs, and then all of a sudden after integration, you realize that maybe that's a symbol of a belief system. And I'm wondering, do we, have you noticed people using symbology or symbols when they're, when they're in the integration process? Yeah. Well, I do think that those blobs were a symbol, but I do also think that they had energetic properties.

And then like somatically, I needed to release that from my physical being. So I think of it more than just a symbology. But I do think that symbology is very. powerful and has strong meaning and that if somebody is having a psychedelic journey and like a symbol pops up in their mind's eye, you know, to write it out, to draw it or just to recall it. And then maybe afterwards they're looking it up and it maybe it's a Celtic symbol that they had never seen before and they find out the meaning of it and it has some type of profound meaning. So yeah, Symbology, I think, can be really powerful for people.

It's so interesting you say that. I often, when I, I love to read and I find myself looking back at just different books about, there's a great one by Jeremy Narby called The Cosmic Serpent. And there's just so many ideas that come to you. And in some ways, I think that it has changed the way I think about learning. you know, on a psychedelic journey or maybe it's breathwork or maybe you're meditating, but any of these heightened states of consciousness, it seems like information is revealed to you. You know, it's like, hey, here's this symbol or, hey, here's a thought, you know, and it, I think it fundamentally changes the way we look at learning because for so long, we have thought that you go to school and you learn from someone else's experience, someone else's stories, but on a journey, be it a real trip, a psychedelic trip, information and learning is revealed to you.

The same way to the answers to your problems are revealed to you if you're willing to do the work. What do you think about education and answers being revealed to you if you're willing to study or willing to do the work? Well, I think about your inner healing intelligence. Oh, nice. I think we carry all the answers within us that we know. I think we get lost. We get lost in our monkey mind that is constantly coming up with. endless ideas and possibilities and reasons for things.

But when you can find a way to quiet that mind to tap into your own inner healing intelligence that the answer is there, you know, that outside sources, of course, are helpful in us finding our answers, but really it lies with them. Yeah, and yeah, it can be through a psychedelic journey or breath work or meditation or exercise, just being out of nature. There's multiple ways to connect with your own inner healing intelligence. It's beautiful. What do you think of when I say psychedelics and relationships?

What type of relationships? Relationship of self or outside of self. That's a great question. Thanks for reflecting that back at me. I would say relationships like marriage relationships or romantic relationships or friendship relationships. Like people, let's just go with like people that are married and maybe they're having a problem. Maybe one of them got fired or maybe one of them has some trauma they're dealing with and they've kind of been bottling it up for a while. Do you think that psychedelics can play a role in unbottling problems in a relationship like that, like a marriage or something like that?

Absolutely. I think that if one person does psychedelics and the other one, doesn't. There could cause an, like, let me try to say it the right way. There could be, they're called, could cause an imbalance there because one person is like really changing a lot and having a lot of self-realization and the other person is kind of staying like where they're at if they're not doing their own work. So there could be some disharmony that happens.

But then it could also go the other way. It's like the person who does the psychedelics has an awakening to patterns that have been happening in the relationship that have made it unhealthy. And so they see ways to make changes within themselves and in their interactions with each other so it can be good. They may choose to leave the relationship, you know? And so then the other person is left like really upset because they did the psychedelics and like that made them realize they don't want to be in the relationship. So it can go, you know, many different ways, right? I think it can be cool. if a couple chooses to do it together and have that experience together

and is really willing to be just super open and vulnerable with their sharing. That vulnerability creates connection between the two. Yeah, I love the idea of the connection between the two because when you think about relationships, whether it's a marriage or maybe it's young kids that are beginning to date, finding out how they become. a container for each other. You know, I think that psychedelics do allow us to not only dissolve boundaries,

but create new patterns. And sometimes that's what a relationship is. It's like you becoming this new pattern with somebody else, like a dance, right? Like you're moving and working together to create a performance that benefits to both of you. And I'm glad that you brought up this idea of patterns and psychedelics. I do you think that, in your opinion, what do you think is the relationship between psychedelics and patterns? Well, I think that, you know, the research shows that psychedelics help to rewire the brain, you know, neurophysity, to create new pathways, neurogenesis, to create new neurons. And so psychedelics can help to rewrite patterns.

or help people to let go of old patterns. Absolutely. I think that taking time to create those new patterns, you know, and feel into them and allow yourself that time for the shift and maybe not jump too quickly and making big life changes, you know, just just giving yourself, being gentle and giving yourself time, I think is essential. Yeah. Yeah, it's easy to have that. Well, it's not easy, but sometimes after, you know, integration or a big journey, we have these giant momentous ideas of what we can do to change our life. And you want to jump right into that. But usually it's best to wait a few days before making giant decisions after a big journey like that. You know, I, if I think about it for a minute and I think about patterns, it seems. to me that sometimes on psychedelic journeys you're given this rare insight to see yourself from like a third person point of view like an objective point of view right have you noticed that absolutely yeah yeah so my my question to back that up would be i feel like it gives you a really incredible insight and that's what helps change patterns and i'll give you an example we all know people who are in a relationship that doesn't work. And you and I as an outsider can see it like, oh, this person is a taker and this other person is just giving everything. It's not going to work. You can already

see it kind of failing. But the person that's in that relationship, they can't see it because they're right in the middle of it. And I think that psychedelics allows the individual to see that relationship in yourself. Like you're given this look from the mountaintop. You're given this look from a third person point of view from outside yourself. It's almost beyond time. And that particular state of consciousness, while it can be overwhelming, the more you get into that state and the more you realize, oh, I'm getting to look at myself in a way I've never seen before.

That's a really strange position to be in. And I'm wondering how you deal with that particular situation. I know you've been there before. But more than that, how would you help someone else understand that position? Yeah, I think of it as an awakening to the self and a deeper understanding of the self. And, you know, in that particular instance that you gave as far as the giver and the taker, having that realization, if you're the taker, the realization is you don't want to be the taker anymore that you want it to be more balanced.

But then, like, how to do that. And I think that's where the integration comes into play. And right now with the studies that are going, most of it are three preparation sessions. Then you have the experiential journey. And then you have three integration sessions. But in my work as an integration coach, like three sessions usually is not enough, right? Integration lasts for weeks. It lasts for months.

It can last for, you know, over a year. So just understanding that. You may have this realization and you may want to make these changes, but it is going to take active effort when you come back to your normal everyday life and staying focused on those changes that you want to make. And that it's going to take time. Yeah. So I think that my hope is as things become more legalized is that it's a good starting point

to have this protocol of the three preparation and the experiential. three integration, but I think the integration aspect of it needs to continue. That's kind of a really short time frame. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It seems that the integration is just the beginning of a lifelong journey, right? Like you should continue to always grow and learn. You know, it brings me to this idea of, and I know that this, at least in the Western world, this model with decriminalization and this

model that's beginning to unfold in front of us is somewhat new. But it almost seems like there's becoming an industry standard where someone will go to a retreat, they'll have maybe one small ceremony and then a large ceremony and then integration, and then they'll be allowed to move back into their life. And while it seems like it's a great model, and I'm sure that different models called a different people, do you think that that model will continue to broaden out and become more customizable. Do you see in the future a potential model where somebody with this particular type of ailment should get integration two months after the ceremony? I guess what I'm trying to say is it seems that while it's all good, maybe the integration for some people shouldn't come right

after the journey. Maybe it should come a month after the journey. Maybe they should have time to process it before themselves before they sit down with someone and have their sort of journey prodded or taught about. Do you think that there can be different models and there should be different models? I think that there's going to be different models as things get legalized because each practitioner is going to have their way of doing it the way that they see fit. But that particular instance, waiting a month, well, I think there could be some positives and some negatives to that.

people forget, you know, in the spans of a month, a lot happens in life. You know, it's if you move far away from that experience, from it being on the forefront of your thoughts and, you know, remembering as many details. So maybe somebody does integration, like right away just to establish a relationship with their integration specialist and then take a break, take a month, see what happens and then come back to it. I know. I've worked with people. Let me take a sip of water. Yeah, of course. I'm going to take some to you. Thank you. I worked with people and I've talked with them the day after their journey. And then we've spoken again, like two months later.

And things are happening in their life. And I remember, you know, some of the details that they shared about their journey. And I can bring it back full circle. Like I can relate them. So if you're able to have somebody that you can talk to maybe right after. before you have that space in between, that can be helpful. And I'm not saying that you need to have an external person. There are plenty of people that do their own integration work, but it can be very helpful.

Yeah, I think it, I definitely think it can. I often wonder, what do you think are some of the unique components of having an experience by yourself versus having it in a group setting? I think in a group setting you're affected by what's happening in the group and it can be an amplification of whatever's going on. So if somebody is having a really hard journey, you're going to kind of tap into that a little bit. And on your own, you know, you're really in yourself. On your own or how about you have a sitter with you, just somebody's holding space for you. So you have that safety net there.

if you need to talk to somebody of something, a recollection from childhood that's traumatic, that you forgot surfaces. I mean, it can be nice to have just somebody there holding space for you, wherever you are. But if you're thinking about, like, cost effectiveness and, I mean, in the future, as these things get legalized, it is going to be more cost effective to work in a group. And there is also the aspect of building community together when you do it in a group.

and that the sense of separation that we have in our culture, you know, has really affected people. So the building up of community and having a support group is something that we need for sure. Yeah, I think it harkens back to this idea of ceremony. You know, when you get married, you have a ceremony. When you have a kinsigni, you have a ceremony. When you have a barymitsv, there's a ceremony. But as adults, we lose these rites of passage. There is no ceremony, and it seems to me that some of these traditions or some

of, you know, taking medicine in a group setting, be it at a retreat or at a friend's house or wherever the ceremony is, is a return to ceremony. And it kind of seems like a return to our roots in a way. Would you agree with that? Yeah, for sure. I mean, we all have ancestors from hundreds of years ago that, you know, we're indigenous and did have the ceremonies. and we definitely have lost that in our culture. I think that it's intention, like the ceremony, maybe speaking about it in a way that is ceremonial or creating some kind of sacred ritual or, yeah,

just making that part of an awareness. I don't know if it is, if it's ceremonial, if you're just doing it recreational, where everyone's just partying and taking whatever, you know, drugs that they want. I don't know if I would call that ceremonial. It is community. It's community gathering. There's a difference.

Yeah, there is. You know, I was, I'm a big fan of Merset Iliad, and he writes a lot, he writes a lot about the sacred and the profane and spirituality. And he has a really elegant way of breaking down very difficult concept. And one of those difficult concepts is time. And I know that time plays a role in a psychedelic journey. You know, there's like a time dilation. And sometimes, you know, you can live a whole lifetime in a psychedelic journey. You can live multiple lifetimes in a psychedelic journey.

You can see yourself as a child or see yourself as an older person or see yourself living a life where you made a different decision. And he brings up this really amazing idea. And I want to share it with you and get your opinion. And it's this idea that we can experience. the same time as our ancestors. And the way we do that is through a ceremony. And the way he says it is, imagine a wedding.

Like, at a wedding, you are being betrothed to your partner in the eyes of everyone around you and a potential holy being. That time is the same time someone in your family got married. It's the same time other people in the world. Like, we all shared that time. And in a weird way, that's like a sacred time where everybody gets. gets to experience that moment. We're all sharing the same moment, albeit at a different time. And then he speaks about profane time, where maybe you're getting up and you're doing something that's kind of monotonous. Not profane as a pejorative as like it's a horrible thing, but profane

in that it's not sacred. And so I'm wondering when you think about sacred time and when you think about time in the context of a psychedelic journey, what does it mean to you? What do you think about time and psychedelics and being a sacred time. Well, as you're speaking, you know, we are taught that time is linear, right? But my understanding is that time is actually spiral, you know, where things are happening, like simultaneously. And it's a really big concept. Yeah.

And it's very far from, you know, what we are taught. but as far as it being sacred, I really think the way that you look at life is either in a sacred manner or it's not. You can make anything that happens in life sacred, as long as that's the awareness that you're choosing. But time during a psychedelic journey, it's all over the place, right?

You can connect with a past life or what you think is a past life, connect with your ancestors, connect with the angelic realms, connect with what's happening in the present moment or happening in your childhood, but it's all happening simultaneously. Yeah, so I don't know if I have a set answer to what you asked. Yeah, but time is definitely not linear on psychedelics. It's so true. I love what you said about you can make anytime sacred time. It seems like if you inject the right purpose or you inject the right energy into the moments that you have that you make a sacred time. Can you give me an example of how you make time sacred time? I think being in the

moment, you know, and finding gratitude for the moment, whether it's difficult, a difficult moment, you know, or a really wonderful, blissful moment is just finding the gratitude in the moment, because that's really all that we have is right here in this moment. Yeah, that's well said. I once heard that depression is being trapped in the past and anxiety is being trapped in the future. So if you can just if you can figure out how to be thankful in the moment, it'll really ground you and it'll keep those two things at bay and allow you to to live your best life. It's it's interesting to think about. When I I heard another good quote that was along the lines of if you want to if you want to create a better world for yourself,

you must learn to love your suffering. And it seems like a pretty crazy thing to say. But what do you think about people falling in love with their own suffering? I would say personally, I don't know if I would fall in love. You know, I can share a personal story. Sure, please. And a past partner of mine was physically and emotionally abusive with me. And when I was finally able to get out of that relationship, you know, like I felt like my soul was dead.

Like I didn't know who I was and I was just very lost. And it was, you know, a two-year-long journey to get back to myself on this healing journey. And I was mad. I was mad at the creator. I was mad at, you know, the universe, God, whatever you call the divine, you know, why did this happen to me? Like I'm a good person, you know, and the only thing that made it, that I could, I could understand it was that I have a greater capacity now to understand other people that have gone through that experience. And so I wouldn't say I'm in love with the suffering I went

through. No, it was horrible, no, but I can see the reason why, and I can see. And I can see, see how it has made me a more whole person, a more expanded person, a person who understands other people. So there was like a greater reason for it. Yeah. So, but I still, I just don't know if I can grasp that in love with the suffering. Not yet, but maybe I'll get that. Yeah. It's a tough, first off, thanks for sharing that. I'm sorry that happened. It's, it's, in, in some ways, And don't take this the wrong way, but I'm thankful that happened. And I say that because it gives you the ability to notice it in other people, Mariah. And that's probably why you're great at what you do is now you have the ability to help a younger Mariah, maybe not go through it.

Maybe you are the person that gets to share what happened with you so that a younger version of yourself doesn't have to go through it. And I feel like I am thankful for that. I hate that that happened to you. but I love the fact that you can stop it from happening from someone else. I think that's incredibly powerful and beautiful. And I also think that anybody that finds themselves in a tragedy, I would invite you to try and see it that way because it alleviates the why me question. And everybody who goes through a damn personal catastrophe like that,

you find yourself in this, why me? Why? Why? You know, and that answer is because you're strong enough, Because I believe in you, because I need you to go help other people. If you can get there, I think that you can really become a pioneer or a missionary for inner peace in the wellness of others. And this is what I mean. When we started the interview, I had said, you know, it seems to me that people that are called to this space have often gone through tragedies.

And it's almost tragedies like a school. Like you go there and hopefully you graduate. And once you graduate, your objectives to get back out of it. in the world and start teaching people. And I think you're doing that, Mariah. I'm really thankful that you're here and that you're helping people. And I'm really thankful for that. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, you know, you yourself and the listeners out there, if you think about the things that have taught you the most in life, it's going to be the suffering. It's going to be the hard stuff that you went through that you learned the biggest

lessons. And so obviously when you're in that suffering and in that pain, you're not going to be able to see it right away that way. But as you move along the healing journey, you know, my hope is that you're able to see it in a way to find the lessons that were learned and use it as a way and a tool to help and support others. That's really well said. A lot of the times in this space when you listen to some podcast or you go to some lectures or you read some books, you often hear this term surrender. What does surrender mean to you? I think surrender is not having to control everything because there are things in life

we can control, but most of it we can't. And so we are here having this human journey. And a lot of times we just need to surrender to what's happening around us to free ourselves up to have the full experience of life. The more you try to control it, you're confining yourself. Yeah. So when you're surrendering, you're just open to all the possibilities, to all the fields, to everything life has to offer.

That's really well said. I often think of control as an illusion, and I think of control as like squeezing a balloon. I'm going to squeeze the air out of there, and then all these pieces just pop out everywhere. I'm going to get this one. Then that one pops out. And, you know, when you try to control something, you fundamentally change its form. And in doing so, you change the meaning of the relationship that you have to it.

And when I think of surrender, it's interesting for me. My journey with surrender was like, I thought it was weak. You know, I'm like surrender sounds like something a losing army would do. Like, why would you ever want to surrender? That's ridiculous. But you come to a point in your life, at least for me, where I'd be. began to see it as it's not something that's weak. It's just an acknowledgement that you can't control the situations. And if you let it go, all of a sudden you are embraced by this freedom

to change. You have this freedom now to not carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. And it can be. And I think for a lot of people, that surrender can be a word that has a negative connotation to it. But I would like to invite all those people to try and reimagine, redefine what surrender is and just sit with it for a little while. I think it's something primarily in the Western world that people struggle with. For sure. And surrender isn't being weak and just giving in. Yeah. I think when people hear surrender, that's what they think is like, you know, just giving up their fight and just, you know, laying down to to it. But it's, you still. You still. can have strength in your surrender. You still can, you know, have your boundaries. You still can

have your own inner wisdom. There's still choices to be made in that surrender. But there's an understanding there that you just can't control and that you're creating more pain within yourself to try to control everything in your life. Yeah, because it's just not possible. It's not going to happen. Yeah, it's a great point. Mara, when I, when I, talking to you, it seems that your journey is ever unfolding. Like, you know, you've, you're a mother of three. You've, you've taken on this new sort of profession. You're getting your PhD.

It seems like you're constantly reinventing yourself. What is the catalyst for that? Like, if you wanted to inspire other people, obviously you're doing that through your actions. But what is the thought process like for you to continually reinvent yourself? I don't know if it's a thought process as much as it is a way of being. I'm just a curious person and always seeking to learn more, especially like healing modalities. And I really think of everything that I learn as like my mental kind of like medical bag that I carry around with me. have studied acupuncture and like Reiki and energy medicine and psychedelics.

And it's like each person that I'm blessed to work with, I can pull from that, you know, what's stored up here and work with them and what they need because everybody is different. Everybody needs something different. So the more that I learn, the more I feel like I can help others. And it's an adventure and learning. You know, life is an adventure. So I don't plan to ever stop. That's so awesome.

Do you feel that for the people, when they come into your life and you get to help, do you ever feel like you're the student and the people that come to you or the teacher? Always. Always. You know, there's like no hierarchy to it. Right. We're both learning from each other. We're all learning from each other.

It's not always one-on-one. Sometimes it's groups, yeah. And we need that. That's also why we're here to help one another, to learn from one another. I love it. I think it's such a profound way. And it makes me happy. It makes me excited to see the future when we begin to see everyone as a teacher instead of these confined ideas of manager, leader, worker. There's just so many limiting beliefs that have been bestowed upon us for so long. And it's conditioned us to think. in this narrow, linear space, when in fact, the world around us is just begging for creation, just begging for creators,

begging you to become the best version of yourself, inviting you to teach everyone around you what you know. And it's such an exciting time. I'm really thankful. And I got to tell you, as we're coming up here on a little over an hour, I have an absolute blast learning from you. I love what you're doing. I love the way you carry yourself.

I love the energy you have, and I want to just give you a little bit of time to, if there's anything else that you want to share with people. And on top of that, I would love for you to explain where people can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about. Thanks, George. This was really an enjoyable podcast. I had so much fun talking with you. You come up with really great questions.

You really made me dig deep on all of them. Good. And I appreciate it. Yeah. If people want to find me, my website is mariahanette.com. They can connect with me through there, send me a message to my email. What's coming up for me? Well, you know, I'm just doing integration coaching.

So if anyone is looking for an integration coach, I would love to work with them. And head into psychedelic science here in June. So really excited to connect with everyone out there. and if anyone has heard about my dissertation and they know somebody or they themselves are interested in being interviewed and part of that, you know, I would really appreciate that. Fantastic. So to everybody out there, go into the show notes, check out Mariah if you can have some wisdom to help her with her dissertation or if you want to be interviewed or you have some particular knowledge that you think would be useful.

I'm sure she would love to hear from you. I'm super excited to see it unfold. I'm super excited to see what you have coming up. And I'm really thankful for your time today. And hang on one second. I want to talk to you just briefly after this. But to the rest of the listening audience, I really hope you enjoyed our conversation.

I hope you have a beautiful weekend. And we will be back soon to talk more and hopefully learn from each other. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for today. I hope you have a beautiful day. Aloha.