TrueLife - Navi Grewal - The Path of the Righteous Man

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/navigrewalAs a passionate and dedicated professional, I have extensive experience as a psychedelic integration coach and addiction recovery coach, as well as training as a psychedelic guide. My goal is to help individuals transform their lives through a holistic approach to mental and emotional wellness, using both traditional and alternative methods.With a deep understanding of addiction recovery, psychedelic integration, and shamanic teachings, I have a proven track record of success in guiding clients towards a more fulfilling and authentic life. I offer a safe, non-judgmental, and empathetic space for clients during psychedelic experiences, which has been instrumental in facilitating positive change.My expertise in a variety of therapeutic modalities and unique perspective on the integration of psychedelics into personal development and healing make me a valuable asset to the health and wellness and psychedelic industry. I am passionate about being part of the growing movement towards a more holistic and integrative approach to mental and emotional wellness, and I am eager to connect and collaborate with likeminded individuals and organizations. Let's make a positive impact togethe One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful Tuesday morning or afternoon or evening or whenever you're watching this. Thank you for being here today. I got a great guest and a great show for you today. The one and only Navi Grasawal, he is big into psilocybin therapy.

He's a passionate and dedicated professional, not only with psilocybin therapy, but integration, addiction, recovery, mental health. And he's got a really unique way of helping people transform their lives through a holistic approach to mental and emotional wellness using both traditional and alternative models. Navi, thanks for being here today. Thanks for having you, George. Yeah, the pleasure's all mine. You know, it's such an interesting time we live in to see the world changing and unfolding in such a dramatic way.

I'm often curious how someone who's doing what you're doing got started, man. I thought maybe you could maybe give us a little synopsis of how you became to be working and integrating psychedelics and helping people. And like, what makes you want to do that? Yeah, I guess how I got started. unfortunately, you know, my background wasn't necessarily the best. I've had a lot of addictions in my past. I've had a lot of injuries. I've had PTSD.

I've had seven-eight surgeries, open-heart surgery, car accident, a traumatic brain injury. When I was hit by a drunk driver when I was seven years old, another car accident. And I kind of got into all of this accidentally through. My first real introduction to any plant medicines was through cannabis. So I used to get extreme migraines all the time. And, you know, there's times where I would throw up and, you know, have really bad nausea. So back in 2009 or 2010, when it was extremely difficult to get a medical cannabis license in Canada and managed to get one with a top pain specialist at the University of Alberta, that worked pretty well.

and then... Oh, shoot. Pardon? I lost you right there for a second, but you're back. Yeah, there I am. Yeah. So over time, I kind of realized that, you know, maybe I got to do some lifestyle changes.

So instead of just taking these high-dose cannabis or certain things, I kind of more tended to eat better, sleep better, and that kind of led to me not using the cannabis as much, but it didn't really address the issues that I had with my depression and my anxiety, right? And, you know, it just happened to be one day, I believe it was 2013 or 2014. I went to my doctor and I told him I was pretty depressed and I needed help. And he's going to put me on, I believe it was Prozac or something else.

And before I tried it, I'm like, let's try something different before I go on this route. Because I know this is just going to mask the symptoms. it's not going to be a long-term solution per se. And I heard about microdosing. So I'm like, I don't think this is going to work. You know, but let's just see what will happen. So I did, I took it for 40 days straight. So I didn't even take, you know, five days on, two days off.

I just took it for 40 days straight. And two and a half weeks into it, it wasn't like I was happier, but it was like the clouds. of depression were clearing away. So by default, I was happier. But it wasn't like, you know, if you're drinking or something else, where it just makes you happy temporarily.

So that was the first time I realized. I was like, wow, this thing is actually working. I don't have to be taking these substances, right? These prescription medications. But obviously, at that time, I was still not a healed person. So I was still partying. I was still doing other drugs.

And it kind of, you know, one thing led to another led me to ayahuasca. And that ayahuasca story was one of the most terrifying and loving stories I've ever had. I had a friend of mine that she wanted to do ayahuasca. This was in Toronto. And I just learned through another friend that I knew. She was doing ayahuasca ceremonies. I had no idea what ayahuasca was at the time. It was 2014 as well.

So I kind of looked that up. I'm like, oh, this is kind of cool. I'm like, maybe I could ask the spirit some kind of questions. I kind of liked her. Maybe I'll see if there's any possibilities, if anything happening down the road. Yeah. So, you know, I kind of had it arranged where it was,

was Kmi, the facilitator, the shaman, and seven, eight of us went to a house and we did this ayahuasca ceremony. And again, you know, I don't have much information in ayahuasca at this time. I was supposed to follow a dieta. I kind of followed it, but not to my best of my abilities. And to give some background, this is not a traditional background. This is not a traditional ayahuasca ceremony by any means. I didn't know that at the time because there was no Icaros. There was none of that, right?

It probably could have been real ayahuasca or it could have been ayahuasca with some DMT at it. It could have been a farm owasca, right? So, you know, we're all given the cop. We're all given our intentions. We're told not to talk to anybody during the ceremony. If you have any help, if you need anything, talk to the facilitator. I'll call her Mandy or talk to the shaman. And so after I took my brook, you know, the lights were named.

They had the music playing in the background. and then I started hearing, I couldn't even explain it. I started hearing this weird noise, and I started getting severe anxiety. I'm like looking around in the room to see if anybody else is hearing what I'm hearing. And I'm like kind of panicking. I'm like, everyone else is calm. They're not hearing what I'm hearing. And what I'm hearing, it turned out to be is like demonic laughter.

It was like cackling really, really loud. I'm like, oh my God, I need help. I need to talk to the shaman. or the Ricky Master for some help. And I had to try to get up, it held me down. So I couldn't move. I was paralyzed. And then it was, so it told me where I'm going, I am F.

That made me even more scared, right? It's so crazy. Yeah. So while this is happening, there's a secondary noise that starts taking place. At least I could categorize the first noise at demonic laughter. The secondary noise, I had no idea what it was. because I didn't know what it was. That made it even scarier for me.

And eventually, it started to overtake the demonic laughter, and that completely went away. And, you know, my anxiety didn't go down. It was through the roof. My heart was beating like a million miles a second. You know, I was fighting for my life to not close my eyes. I was terrified. I was like, I don't know what's going to happen if I closed my eyes.

And then my eyelids kept getting heavier and heavier and heavier, and I felt like they were lead curtains. And then eventually, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't fight. I couldn't fight it. So my eyes just shut. And then when my eyes shut,

I realized what the secondary noise was. I saw my soul in a rocket ship, and the noise was the engine of the rocket ship. And then I started to blast off into the universe at the speed of light. And it was blasting off so fast that I was shaking in the ship. And while I was shaking in the ship,

the lady that was sitting next to me in a couch said that I was shaking on the couch. Right? But I didn't know that at the time. At the time, I was no longer in a house. I was no longer on Earth. I was in outer space. I was traveling so fast.

I was freaking out. I was like, I hope I don't get an anxiety attack. And then the word anxiety came out of my mouth, and I started bouncing off a glass in the spaceship. And the more it bounced, the more anxiety I got, and the faster my heart was beating, like do, do, do, do. And eventually it got to a point where it was bouncing off so fast.

I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to die of a heart attack. So I let go of the controls of the spaceship, grab my heart. And the spaceship, it crashed landed in an alien planet. And then I was bleeding. My spaceship was all in tatters. And there was aliens all around me. And they saw me. And they're like, oh, my God, there's an alien.

So they scattered all around me. So now I have no idea where I am. This does not look like heaven or, you know, It could be hell, who knows, right? Very dark, very dark place that I'm at. And they're all fighting over my corpse, what's left in me. Some are nine feet tall, some are three feet tall. Some are able to download my memories.

So I'm like, hey, good beings only. And they were laughing at me. They're like, you're our property. We could do anything we want with you. So at this point, I'm freaking out. I don't know how much long I have left. There's a power bar above my head. head, almost like a video game, the more and more it goes down, the more and more it's closer to

death I am. I'm contemplating how my parents are going to have my funeral, if they can't find my body. And at the last second, when the bar just hits zero, the beam of white light comes down through my crown chakra and lift me off the ground. And it brings, and they scatter all around me, because they're terrified. And then I realize it's God or the creator, or, and But I'm very upset, you know, at this point still. I'm like, you couldn't have come five minutes earlier? You know, I'm like, you know, you have to wait until the bottom of the night, three balls, two strikes, right?

You know, it didn't say anything. And then it just started to lift me off the ground. And then everything was erased. And then it was just pure white light and I was floating to the creator. It wasn't saying anything, but I kind of knew what it wanted. And so I was pleading with it. I was like, please, you've already taken everything. from me, I don't want to lose my memories.

And then I realized I just have to give in. And then eventually, I just let go. And then I awoke. It was almost like, we're living in a dream. And when I woke up, I was like, wow, I'm a human being. So I was able to see my own body floating to the heavens. I'm like, wow, I'm male. I'm East Indian.

I'm looking at my body like in amazement. Like, I had just woken up from a dream. And then it erased every single cell, cell in my body until there's one cell left, and it started to tear that apart faster and faster and faster and faster and faster with such clarity. I don't know how I was able to see it. And eventually, when there was nothing left, it told me that love bonded everything else in the universe. And then I started crying.

And then I was wondering, like, how am I crying if I don't have a body? Right. And then eventually I was transported into another dimension, And the spirit of ayahuasca is like, you know, now that your ego has been broken, now we can give you lessons. So it had broadened the spirit of every single drug that I had been using that year. You know, the spirit of marijuana, the spirit of alcohol. And when I came to the spirit of MDMA, it told me that this drug is a fake friend. It takes more from you than it gives you.

You got to stop doing this substance. otherwise if you continue to do it and you do ayahuas again we're going to punish you for it right um it allowed me to see 20 years in the future i said no i wasn't ready for that at the time it allowed me to ask any question in a world in the universe and it'll give me the answer on the condition that i won't remember what i asked in order i won't remember what the what the answer was so i couldn't tell you what that was and then eventually what happened was i finally realized I was in a house. I finally realized that people around me. And I had the ability of telepathy. Anybody that I wanted to talk to would come up to me when I asked for it. And did you ask me how I'm doing certain things like that. And then the spirit of ayahuasca was leaving my body. And it was like, we're leaving your body.

Do we have any last questions? I'm like, oh, you know, what are the odds me and so on and so on getting together? And we're like, we can't tell you that because it's not from the heart, but if you want to know long term, we can tell you that. I'm like, sure. And then it actually showed me that the lady that was next to me, we had a 90% chance of getting together in June. So I was able to look at everybody.

It was really strange. I was not at this point, I was not seeing anything, but everybody had a percentage on their chest. So that was the long term, you know, where I could look at them and see what the long term potential was. But I could peel back the graph. So this is in March 2014. So if I expanded it to June, I could see if it goes up or down. So the person that was next to me were 90% in June.

I'm like, oh, wow, that's strange. And we ended up falling in love at a festival in June that year. Wow. What an incredible transformation. It seems, it's, yeah, talk about life changing. Yeah, and not only that, the amount of anxiety that I was put through in the ceremony, where I nearly died twice, for three and a half months after the ceremony, I experienced zero anxiety for the first time in my life.

It was insane. It was just like it was peace. It was so, so peaceful. So what happens, like, after that event? So you go and you have this incredible experience. Like, do you tell people after that? Like, do you go home, be like, oh, my God, this most incredible thing happened to me? And is your life different from that day?

Or was it more of like a transition from day to day? Or what happens to you after that event? Well, you know, this is kind of a part of integration where, you know, fortunately and unfortunately, this happens to a lot of people where they make. go through something transformational, but they don't implement the lessons. And over time, they get worse. So for me, I wasn't, you know, I had this amazing experience, but did I quit doing all the substances? No. Right. So, you know, I kind of got into a worser spot. and, you know, that

that it just kind of I had to learn my lessons the hard way. You know, and unfortunately in life, you know, when you're ready to quit something, when you're ready to do something, it can't be other people telling you,

you have to want it that bad, right? And there did come a point where and unfortunate enough that I definitely wanted it. And that was 2018 where a friend of mine, you know, was telling me my behavior is erratic, you know, from all the partying, from all the drugs and everything else. And I needed some healing. And she's like, I know this and this is a shaman. You should definitely see her.

So you can definitely help you out. And I'm like, okay, you know what? It's kind of the same thing. I don't really believe in this stuff per se. I'll try it because I tried a lot of other stuff. Right? So, you know, what's the worst that can happen? And at the same time, I was ready for it.

And then that was when I had completely quit everything. So, like, it really helped me out. And now she's my teacher. And that was when she told me my medicine is psilocybin. And I'm like, ah, psilocybin, mushrooms. I hate these guys because every time I do them, they never shut up. They always talk to me. and that was when she was like, you have to do it in a ceremonial setting.

And that's when things changed for me. I did have a story where it's kind of, this was 2017, just before I met my teacher. I had some medical complications and I had to actually get circumcised. and it was very, very painful and very, very traumatic. And it put me in a very bad depression. And I went to this festival. I did five and a half grams of mushrooms on a day and a half fast. Not necessarily the best thing to do,

but at the same time, you know, those are kind of things that really kind of can overcome trauma. and I literally, you know, I realized I had made a mistake at the time. At the time, I thought it was a mistake, but it wasn't really a mistake. So I'm like, I need to get to the psychedelic farm part of the festival where they can help me. And then I realized where I was and where that was, it was completely off the direction and I would never make it. So I just found a metal and I just collapsed and I just like died. My ego died.

and then I was born and I saw myself in a womb of a fractal chamber and this goddess came with a bow and arrow and the tip of the arrow was its mini heart and she turned to the side and it turned to a million of her and she fired this bowl into my body and then it just healed me and then I woke up and then I was born into the mushroom realm where I was a baby now and these mushroom goddesses were feeding me. They're breastfeeding me. And I'm like, oh my God, what's happening to me? Where am I? And they're like, do you know, do you know where you are? Do you know who we are or your family? And I was like, you know, I wanted to say F, no, but I was a baby. So I was like, uh-uh, right?

And then they kept feeding me. And then I realized at the end, that was me nurturing myself too. And then I grew up. And then they were giving me healing all over my body and everything. So at the end of that ceremony, everything was healed, right? So when I started doing mushrooms in a ceremonial setting in 2018, they would always tell me, like, you're our family. You know, like, you know, so I was a part of the mushroom family. I wouldn't even like someone doing mushrooms. I would say like their son or, you know, it just kind of,

there would be a female mushroom spirit, a master, a masculine mushroom spirit, and they would all give me advice, I love. What kind of advice did they give you? Oh, yeah. So this comes into, so how would I say this? So you probably heard of this before.

In plant medicine ceremonies, especially ayahuasca, there's a lot of dark arts that's involved, a lot of psychic attacks. And this happened in plant medicine, And it also happened outside of platinum medicine. And what they told me was when I first started doing the ceremony in a ceremonial setting was, is that the Reiki master actually had put a curse on you, and she's harnessing your energy.

And they showed me this during my ceremony. And I'm like, oh my God, this is insane. And I'm like, this is hard to believe. And they were like, yeah, when you saw her a month ago, she gave you a hug. at the store, but they go, the next time you see her, she's gonna give you daggers for eyes because she's gonna know that you undid the curse that she put on you.

So they warned me not to go out in public anywhere because she will see me. So obviously I took their advice, but I still went out. I didn't go out to any event or anything. I went up for a walk and I ran into a street festival where she saw me and she gave me daggers for eyes. And that's when I knew that they were right. Like, why would this person a month ago be friendly and now they're like giving me the meanest look?

So that's kind of where I learned the concept of this thing called dark arts where, you know, people could blow darks at you or they can take your hair or they can do certain things. So my teacher had to undo what was happening. And between the hours of 2 a.m. and 4 a.m., which is called the witch. hour, she would stand, like, I would see things in my room that pop up, right? So she was doing something, and I was like, this is really freaky. You know, I'm totally sober, right? So, so eventually my teacher was, was helping me remove all this stuff permanently, and the mushrooms, I did more mushroom ceremonies, and they were telling me, you know, she's going to try to send someone, you know, in real life or in your dreams to seduce you, right, to get you back.

And so they told me under no circumstances, do anything with anybody for the next three months. So I actually had a dream where this goddess wanted me to be with her. And I'm like, no, because I remember what the mushrooms have told me. And she was fighting for it. And I'm like, this is really strange. And then eventually I said, no, really loud. and she turned back and turned into Satan and then she turned into that lady

and I'm like oh my God, that was her, right? And eventually over time, that was all able to be removed and I eventually popped into her dream and I scared her. Yeah, it's fascinating to me. Sometimes it seems that there's a lot more going on in the world that we live in.

There's a lot more going on than just the world we live in. And it seems to me that heightened states of awareness, altered states of consciousness, can bring you into this area where you can maybe see desires or see cravings or see things that you can never possibly see in the waking hours. It's mesmerizing. Yeah, it's, you know, I never would have thought these things existed. But, you know, going through everything that I've been through,

there's so much I don't know and now it's just I'm more guarded you know even with things like getting healing from someone you know getting getting a riki from someone or getting just I am very I'm very guarded because I've had a lot of crazy things happen so there's people that try to harvest your energy there's a lot of unheeled healers that have also come across and it's it's hard being a healer in general, but there's a lot of people that are partying in the weekends, doing a lot of hard drugs, and then they're giving energy work, or they're doing, you know, mushroom or ayahuasca ceremonies. And now that darkness and that addiction seeps into the ceremony and goes, it latches onto you.

It's interesting. To think about addiction as something that can be, what's that word called? I never really thought about it from that angle, but it kind of makes sense when when someone is usually addicted to something. They're usually spending times with people who are also addicted to them. So I think you could easily, whether you call it an energy transfer or whether you call it dark energy or whether you call it the the transference of addiction. Like it's interesting to think about it from that angle. Not only is it interesting to think about from that angle why it's happening, but it also opens up the door to different kinds of cures, right? it seems like in today's world, we're so focused.

The world of medicine is so focused on this is how we treat this problem. But it seems to me you treated it in a whole completely different way, which allowed you to be free of the addiction, allowed you to be free of the negative surroundings. And so it's fascinating to think about how we can, if we just take a step back from the current model of medicine, there's a whole lot of different ways we could treat it. Yeah, I was taught that a lot of the addictions are entities that are inhabiting the body, and they're the ones that are creating a negative feedback loop, and they're the ones that are craving chaos, right?

So, you know, I'll give you an example. I didn't know anything about Iboga as well. And this was a couple years ago, 2021. Now I'm in a better state. It's been a couple of years. I've been substance free. I'm working in addictions, but I'm working in addiction from a different lens.

I'm not wanting to work with people using plant medicines. And I've just been referred to a client. And, you know, and it turns out, you know, no long story, but I knew this guy and we used to party together. So I'm like, oh my God, this guy is what got me into all this crazy stuff, right? Now I have to get him out. Yeah. It's funny how the world works, right?

Yep. And he's very successful. He's making seven figures. But he's spending like $30,000 a month on addictions and partying in drugs and women and everything, right? So I talk with him on a phone. and, you know, I make it clear to him at this point. I'm like, my goal, if I were to do this with you,

you need to do Ivoga. After I researched it, I'm like, he is a perfect candidate for it. So he hired me almost like a sober living coach slash auditor. You know, so I had to stay with him for six weeks. The first week or a week and a half, I had to do an audit of how much money he was spending, where it was going, the kind of people that are in his life,

life, who the enablers are, what his triggers are, everything, right? You know, I'm like, me saving him money over the six weeks of living with him is going to pay for me there, right? So that was my pitch to him, right? No. And he's just individual, you know, was, the people in his life were crazy. He had just gotten out of a long-term relationship, so he was spiraling out of control. I managed to give him his first plant medicine ceremonies. I did two mushroom ceremonies for him. He was terrified of it.

And then afterwards, it really opened them up to the potentiality of doing Iboga. But he still wasn't saying yes, but he wasn't saying no either. And during that time span, you know, I eventually got him to say yes to Iboga. And he's like, I'll do it under one condition. and I'm like, what's that? And he's like, you got to do it with me. I'm like, okay, you know, I'm terrified of a vulgar too. You know, and at this point, I'm like, I don't really need it because I don't have any

addictions, but also the psychonaut in me is like, this could be exciting because I've never done something like this before. So I said yes to him. We agreed to do the ceremony. And then before I moved out, I hired a house manager for him to take care of everything so that everything is good. And then the week leading up to the ceremony, unbeknownst to me, because he was in pretty good shape when I left,

he freaked out that I guess inside of him, he knew something was on the horizon. And three or four days before the ceremony, he goes on a vendor. And the day before the ceremony, he video calls me and tells me he got shingles outbreak. Like, he can't vote, do I bogas, right? And then now I'm even more terrified. I'm like, I have to go alone into this ceremony. Like, this is nuts.

So, you know, my heart is like being out of my chest. I've heard a couple of things going into the ceremony. You know, and when I got there, it was me and 10 other people. And it was so quiet. I've never seen so many people terrified for their life. Right? You know, it's just like it was at a retreat in this giant barn that was nicely set up. And people were just quiet.

I'm just talking to people. The ceremony, we got there at 5 p.m. And the ceremony took place at 9 p.m. And so the person that was doing the ceremony, he, you know, just before it began, he'd have everyone go aside. He was smudgeon in this giant torch thing. And then he would look at them in the eyes to look at the entities that are in their eyes. And then he had all of us get inside.

We were all, all of us were seated in a circular kind of position. So one by one, he went and got a spoonful of iBiBOR. I didn't know this at the time, but iboga is so, it tastes so bad. It makes ayahuasca taste good. Yeah, I never, it was like to this, just the taste of it is giving me PTSD. I could, I could throw up just by thinking about it. And what makes it worse, it, he had it, it's like sawdust. So he gives it this giant spoon.

He puts it in your mouth. This is the way that he did it. anyways, and you're fighting back, not puking, because your saliva had to slowly break it down. And you could barely, and, you know, you can't drink a lot of water because you'd probably throw it up. You might have a sip. So one by one, every person had to swallow it, open their mouth, go onto the next person. We're all smiling. All of us are smiling at the person that is struggling until it's our turn.

And then, you know, I'm struggling and we do it again. and then there's a second round and after the second round you know there's a third round but before that he makes you stand up to see you know where you're at and at this point it hit me the hardest I was it was hitting me so hard

that I couldn't even stand so he took me to the bed and laid me down and as I was laying down it was hitting me so hard that it was like two screens happening two TV screens playing in my mind at the same time the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere. I'm like, oh my God, I need to put on my eye mask.

And then I realized my eye mask was already on, right? And what I didn't realize at the time, what I should have realized was is that a lot of the people that do Ivoga are doing it for really, really, really deep healing, a lot of addictions, a lot, a lot of addictions. And so it was almost, like a mass exorcism there.

So I saw all the entities leaving people's bodies, right? They were being evicted from people's bodies. And because I was the only person there that was not, that doesn't have any issues, all of these entities tried to enter my body. It was crazy. So I was basically fighting off these energies from entering my body. and, you know, I had this little practice that I did, that I've been doing for the last five years. I mean, now I don't swear anymore, but if I ever say anything, I just say the word clear.

So it just kind of clears it from my mind. And when I was freaking out during the Iboga ceremony, I was like, oh, my God, you know, what the F is going on? And I said, clear, the word clear, Iboga told me, it turned, I've used it so often, it becomes, a muscle that I've turned it into a mental smudge. So it showed my mind, it showed it like a smudge where it clears out all the negative energy. So any single time these energies were trying to come into my mind or to my space, I would say clear and I would just completely erase them. So the power of thought and the power of repetition, you know, it definitely is important. Yeah. Iboga's like 48 hours too, right? It seems like all this was, was this all happening in

the first few hours of this particular. Yeah, yeah. It was, my ceremony was, I think, I believe I was out for 36 hours. Wow. And then it showed me the client that was supposed to be with me. And it told me that he has less than three months to live. And one of his entities got last on to me and I puked it out. And then it showed me it's like when, when a host is dying,

The parasites and the entities in the host, they jump ship and latch on to anyone else they can because they know, right? So I was freaked out. So after the ceremony, I told the client's friend this and he got so freaked out of what he heard that he paid for a one-on-one session. And this was someone that the client's friend thought would never put these drugs. He said he's so far gone. And when he ended up doing Iboga like three, four weeks after, I did it. For the first time in his life, he was free from sex addiction, free from alcohol addiction, free from cocaine addiction, free from everything. He had an out-of-body experience where he saw himself.

He was disgusted with his behavior. he yeah and he within a six months he changed his life he got engaged he didn't even like

he didn't even like the taste of alcohol wouldn't even tried alcohol so it was so profound to see someone that that people think at the right off can actually change their life so to me and seeing the stories

from other individuals that were also they're with me. You know, they were there for sex addiction. They were there for meth addiction. They were there for other addictions. And just seeing how much better they felt after the first ceremony, just seeing people's lives kind of changed.

There was another individual there that he, I both got told him that it couldn't help him because he had, he had a traumatic brain injury. So I told him he couldn't help him with that. So I told him he should try mushrooms. The facilitator didn't necessarily like that. He was one of these people that is completely pro-one medicine and was against all other medicines.

I am open to all medicines because all plant medicines are healing, right? Yeah. It's, man, it's fascinating. interesting to think about. I've read quite a bit of literature on a bogo where people that, you know, whether it's heroin or smoking or sex or, you know, all these different types of addictions that people have or maybe demons that they have or entities that they have or energies that they have. It's fat. Isn't it mind-blowing to think? And maybe it doesn't work for everybody. But if we just look at the model of medicine where people, in today's world, if you have an addiction, you're usually given another drug that's equally as addictive, you know, or sometimes people try to take like that cold turkey route. We're like, okay, you just have to stop today and never do it again. And if you do do it again, then you're a loser and you're weak.

And it just makes you feel even worse. So what do you think? Do you see on the horizon a time when these particular medicines will be more accepted and more accessible to people that need it? I think it's happening more and more. There is this a psychedelic kind of revolution. Plant medicines are popping up everywhere in Canada, in America and abroad. Thankfully, people have more access to these medicines.

I guess one of the barriers is it's not cheap. It's definitely cheaper than rehab. I'll say that. Like doing Iboga or Ibogain, you know, will save you a lot of time and money if you were to go to a traditional rehab center where you're there for a month or two months. And you're around the same people that have the same issue that you, but, you know, I feel like these, I feel like plant medicines, they go somewhere and they can do things that traditional therapy can't do. they can access the darkest corners and recesses off your body and psyche and unravel and unpack all the trauma and help heal it. Yeah.

So here's another part that I see kind of happening in this world too, Navi, and I think that you can speak well to this. You're clearly comfortable with the underground. Like you realize that there's things happening. You're comfortable maybe going to a bogus ceremony. where it's not in a clinical setting. But that probably stems from your background. Like you've probably taken some chances in your life.

And some of them worked out good. Some of them didn't work out good. But you figured out how to navigate this unfamiliarity. But there's a lot of people out there that when they hear these stories, they're like, holy cow, man, I could never do that. And it's interesting to me because I think a lot of healing. And I mean a lot of it gets done on the underground. Like there's a lot of incredible people that don't have a,

agree, but really understand how to help people. But that can be not only a red flag, it can be dangerous. How do how do you navigate? It's a kind of a two-part question. First off, how do you navigate the underground versus the above board? And how would you help somebody understand the different levels there? I mean, it's, and you're definitely right. The clinical setting, is it's not accessible to everybody but the underground can also be just as good if not better but it's also more dangerous

it's more dangerous in the sense that you know like in a clinical setting they will go through all your intake properly they'll make sure you're the right fit mentally physically everything whereas if you go to a lot of places underground places, a recruit center, certain things. They may not have all your medical profile, certain things.

And even if that is all fine, even if medically you're totally fine, there is a lot of, I kind of hesitate to say this, a lot of shenanigans that kind of take place in especially ayahuasca circles where I've heard of a lot of stories that while, under the influence of the medicine, the practitioners, they take advantage of the people that are there. Using, using, I guess they can manipulate people's energy, put their psychic will against them. There's been cases of people like afterwards kind of under the influence where they give people their money, where the shaman sleep with people that are part of the ceremony

or make them fall in love or they have dreams of them being with a teacher. And too often this happens when someone gets a lot of power, a lot of, you know, it kind of gets to their head. You know, they, you know, so it's kind of like a slippery slope because, you know, especially you have to be very careful of, like, you have to do a lot. I wouldn't rush into anything. I would do a lot of research as much as possible. Who were the places that you're going, who the facilitators are, things like that, any referrals.

Because, you know, as many good people as there are in the, field, there's a lot of stories. There's too many stories, actually, from what I've heard. And it's like one of those themes where maybe people start off as good, but they get a lot of power, a lot of things get to

their head. And you know, unfortunately, you know, where this, I guess, this type of world that we're in, in psychedelics, it allowed access to a higher realm, right? You can expand,

you can you can do things a bit differently. You can heal a lot quicker, but it's also like the veils are thinner, so more can be done in a good way or a bad way. Yeah. At some level, you know, and just like on some level, all of us are susceptible to forces greater than us, whether those are good forces, whether those are evil forces.

And, you know, when people talk about set and setting and mental space, you know, you brought up this idea of corrupt. Like it's so seductive, like even in the waking time, even when you're in a regular state, when you start having, sometimes for me, if I have like, if I'm going through a phase where I got tons of money, I'm feeling good, like I can feel that ego slipping in. And I start judging people. And I have to pull myself back. And I'm like, wait a minute, man, I'm the same guy I was a week ago. You know, I think I'm all cool now or something like that. So if you're in a heightened state of awareness or you're the person who's helping people with the medicines, very easily to begin.

thinking that you're the medicine, you know? Yes. You're the person that has the part. You're the person doing it. Or even, you know, in the beginning of when you were talking about your ayahuasca story and how you were able to see a number on someone's chest to see the potential of how that relationship may work out, that could very easily be misconstrued into this person wants to be with me this much.

You know what I mean? So, like, just a shift in focus. And you have so much energy going through. you. You may mistake a social cue for a come on versus a friendly smile or a smile with anxiety. You know what I mean? It's a very powerful states. And I think that that is something that people who are seeking help on the underground should definitely be aware of. And it's tough because a lot of the times if you're working in the underground or if you have an addiction and you're seeking help, you may not be able to be in the right frame of mind where you can do a lot of due diligence to be like, okay, I've heard

stories about this guy. He seems great. A lot of times it's, oh, my friend went to this guy and now I can go to him too, you know? So what kind of tips or tricks or what kind of research or what can someone do? Like, let's say, like we all have, I think everybody has a friend who has had a meth addiction or something like that? What kind of tips or tricks or ideas or counsel could we give to somebody who's going to be battling addiction and wanting to work on or find some help on the underground? I mean, thankfully now there's a lot more resources. There's a very good site called tripsetters.org. So it has a directory of facilitators and retreats all across the world, right? It's also a great resource. There's other ones like psychable and other places like that.

There's a lot more research online. Also, I would, you know, not everybody can quit something in one try. So a lot of the times we get very upset with ourselves where we try quit smoking, say for example, and then two weeks later, we smoke again. And now we think that we're actually worse off. but the fact that you were able to do it for a week or two weeks is a good sign. The fact that you wanted, so just knowing that you want to quit, that something inside of you is craving it, that should be a sign that you're headed in the right direction. Because if you don't have that, then you don't have anything, right?

But if you have that, then you can overcome that love for yourself, that desire to change can. overcome anything, right? So I think that is the biggest thing that people, if they have that, then there is, there's many paths to find, to get to where you need to get to, right? Yeah. And I think it's important. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. And another thing is, what I realized is that, so the medicine is, the plant medicine is plant medicine, it's healing, it's helpful, but it's also kind of neutral in a sense that, you know, why are bad people allowed to use plant medicine, right? Why are good people allowed

to use plant medicine? And I kind of learned this where years ago, I bought mushrooms online from a website, and before I took the mushrooms in a ceremony, I made an offering to the mushrooms to cleanse the energy, and I cleans the space, and I just kind of sat in setting. And when I took them, they were very upset because they showed me who was trafficking them. And there was so much negative energy behind that. But because I was able to make the offering and clear the energy, that soon dissipated. So a lot of the times people have to be careful is when they're buying medicine from someone, you know, whether it's a shop or a store or something, if the person is bad, if their energy is bad, that energy is transferred on.

through the medicine. So I would advise people to just be careful what, you know, whether it's ayahuasca or p.O.T. Just make sure anything that you're getting, make sure that the medicine is good or clear the medicine yourself, set an intention, put it in your altar for a couple of days, right? So there's different methods of kind of doing this, but like a lot of this stuff is just energy transference as well. Yeah, that's well said. I, some people that I talk to where I work with, I often mention to them a really good practice for people. And most people can do this is that if you can grow your own mushrooms, I think it really teaches you a lot about who you are and the energies that affect you. Because the biggest problem with growing mushrooms is contamination.

And it happens all the time, right? People that grow mushrooms, oh, this batch got contaminated. And you can see the mycelium turned green or you can see the fungus get in there. But I think what the mushroom's showing you is like, look, just like we can get contaminated, so too can you get contaminated. And it's very, very easy. Just being around, being in the wrong room, being subjected to the wrong sort of substances. All of these things can make sure that the mushrooms never fruit into a mushrooming body and they get stuck in this one phase. And I think that that shows us like, hey, I'm just stuck in this phase.

I can't fruit to my full potential because I've been contaminated. That's the bad news. But the good news is I can just get rid of that contamination and then I can grow again and then I can fruit and do a better version of myself. And so I love this idea that you're talking about, the negative energy that comes with the medicine. You know, we don't realize that whether it's the medicine that we bought from some guy that trafficked it from Lord knows where and Lord knows what happened to it along the way, like so too happens on our journey or even our parents' journey. A lot of the addictions, a lot of the things that happen to us are manifesting in our life. Sometimes they are a product of what happened in our parents' lives. Yeah, and growing mushrooms, it does teach you a lot.

I actually had the opportunity to help someone grow mushrooms. And it's a funny story. One time I did about a gram or a gram and a half of mushrooms before I got into the nursery. you know so it's very peaceful at night time my job to help them out was just to pick the mushrooms to cut them and put them in the dehydrator machine so I'll come there at night but this time I'm under the influence of the mushrooms and then I just I'm like I wonder how I can get the best experience or people can get the best experience with these mushrooms so I asked the medicine how can I make sure that people that use this medicine

and get the best experience? And then what the mushrooms told me is when you come in this room, do not be on your phone, do not think about anything negative. In fact, think about someone that gives you unconditional love. And then they were like,

think about your friend's dog. And I'm like, oh my God, you know, like I love this dog, Marley. So basically, what they told me to do was every single time I'm in the nursery doing any kind of work,

have my phone on on airplane mode and have his photo as a background on my phone so that when I'm looking at the phone I see this right so it's just like pure love and then that love while I'm thinking about it while I'm cutting the mushrooms while I'm handling it it's transferred over to the next person that takes it yeah that's a pretty good idea for life as well if you can keep that thought or that pattern in your mind of unconditional love I think that you will act out that same pattern in your relationships. You'll act out that same pattern

in the words you use when you're talking to people. And it's a pretty good meditation to try and keep that pattern in your mind because as above so below, what we have in here manifests out here. That's a, well, that is a funny story, but it's a beautiful story too. Yeah, I'm like, you know, what are the odds?

Because I was like, you know, I love my family. Sure. But sometimes, you know, like your parents or your loved ones, or people in your life, they kind of irritate you. So I'm like, who can I think of or what can I think of that never irritates me, right? So I'm like, oh, a pet, right? Yeah.

You know, in the beginning of the story, you were talking about your initial foray into the world was began with micro doses. Do you remember what that dose was that you took for 40 days straight? Was it less than a, obviously less than a gram, right? But do you remember about approximately what that dose was? Yeah. It was, I would say, it was 75 milligrams. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was less than one-tenth of a gram because at that time, I was very hesitant, right? I don't want to feel anything.

So that was my whole thing is if I take something, I don't want to feel it, right? I don't want to get high. And I found taking that dose really, really was the perfect dose. Because when I first, the first three, four days, that was a little bit of a challenge because I had to see which dose was the best. But, you know, afterwards, I kind of was set on one particular dose. I did it first thing in the morning. And I kind of made it a routine. You know, and also, like, making anything a routine is also good for your mental health.

It kind of, like, gets you in that mode, right? Right. Yeah, it's interesting. I've played around with taking like 300 milligrams every day for like a month. And it's interesting because I didn't really feel as if there was a tolerance buildup. Like I could feel it every day. You know, and that runs counter to a lot of the protocols where they're like, take two, you know, you do two days on and three days off. Or, you know, however you take, how many days you take off.

It's interesting because I thought that there would be an incredible. tolerance. I thought maybe after three or four days, I wouldn't feel it at all. But that never happened. Was that the case for you? You know, what I did was, is that I would, every time, I would switch it up and use different strings. So maybe use golden teachers for a month, then penis envy, then tidal wave, then Ecuadorian, kind of like, just kind of change it up. And then I also experimented with, and I found that it worked really well, was I started to to microdose an hour before bed, and that was 100 milligrams.

And I found it actually really knocked me out. Like my dreams started off, slightly psychedelic, but I woke up completely full of energy, so much energy. It was crazy. So now when I microdose, it's the opposite. I take it at night. Right. Same way a lot of people take cannabis at night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, except I don't have, if I were to smoke cannabis, I would have,

this is me personally, I would have almost like a weed hangover where in the morning, it's impossible for me to get up. So like now, even though I had my cannabis license for migraines back in the day, I relinquished my license because I hardly ever get them. I don't use cannabis hardly ever. For me, it was good when I needed it, but I don't, for me, it's also something that I also had an addiction to at a certain point, where I was smoking it every single day. And for that reason, I kind of find that cannabis has kind of lost its spirit. You know, it's like it used to be sacred medicine, but it's now, it's not being used in that setting. And I played my part in that too.

So, you know, not to say that I never use it, but I rarely ever use it because I don't want to take anything that can get me back on that path, right? Yeah. Yeah, different medicines come into our lives and different seasons of our lives. You know what I mean? Maybe that's something that you needed to prepare you for the next phase that you were on. different medicines work different for different people and yeah i've i've found it similar to maybe it's maybe it's i don't really have any any preconceived notions of what it is and i'll sometimes i'll take some edibles when i'm on a certain high dose psychedelic trip but you know what what

about layering you know have you used the different like sometimes people will take x amount of they'll do like five and a half grams and then at hour four they'll smoke a joint or something like that you know but they they put these layers on like that have you experienced that or tried any what's your experience with that so i mean i've done that in the past right when i used to party um you know i would uh maybe i would but it's you know i would have a couple of beers i would uh take it in mbma and then i'll take some mushrooms, right? Right. Or, yeah, you know, this is like, you know, a long time ago or you go to a festival and you take two tabs of acid and then you take some MDMA to combat anxiety.

You know, I've had, you know, it's like I've talked to the spirit of the drug that I was on. I've had experiences. I wouldn't do them again, per se, because I was told not to take anything on mushrooms. The mushrooms told me that they don't like any other drugs on them, right? Because it kind of takes away. But I can see how it's beneficial for certain people. You know, I've definitely been somewhere where, you know, I'm at a festival in a forest.

I'm going to go, you know, take a piss somewhere. And then 20 minutes later, I come back and I've been talking to ghosts. And, you know, those people that used to live there and then did it vanish, right? Right. You know, and I'm like, certain substances, especially LSD for me, like they open everything up and there is like no protection. So I could see everything on them and it's just too chaotic, right? So, you know, I don't regret taking them in the past, but I per se, you know, don't. want to take any synthetic substances in the future.

And that's not to say they're not good for certain people or certain things. Just for, you know, everyone has what's good for them and what's not. I just find out for me that the plant medicines have the built-in protection, you know, the spirit of the medicine that's built in, where the synthetic ones are more dangerous. Everything's open. And, you know, I've heard a lot of good experiences for people that have taken 5MODMT. Yeah. But I've also heard of a lot of people that have PTSD from 5MODMT.

So it's like one of those things. I can see the healing potential of it. But, you know, it's something that is so new that people are buying these vape pens off the internet. And they don't know how to dose themselves and things are happening. And it just completely shatters her ego. They're fighting for their life. You know, even something with LSD, which is highly research and generally safe. But the issue is even if it's safe, how do you know what you're getting is what you're getting?

Because it's on the black market. At least with cannabis or mushrooms, you can see, you can hold it. You kind of know what that is, right? Yeah, it's got thousands of years of history behind it of people using it, you know. and it's had the test of time. I'm curious, too. I feel that my relationship with different plant medicines have really helped me articulate not only the issues that I have in myself,

but they've made me a better communicator. They've helped me use language to solve problems in my relationships. And not just a little bit, like a lot. Like, it is fundamentally shifted the way I can move through the world using my language. I'm wondering, is that similar for you? Yeah, they, you know, the great part about these substances is they give you solutions. Yeah. And the solutions may be simple, but a lot of times things that are simple are harder to implement.

So, you know, one of them is like, how do I bring more love into my life? You know, they tell me to tell people that you love them. But they say, to get love, you must give love. But when you give love, don't expect love. So a lot of the times people do things and they expect something, right? And I'm like, oh, that makes sense. So, like, I have to give love without expecting it, you know, because when you expect something and you don't get it back,

now you're angry, right? So I'm like, you know what? But you have to be genuine. So now I tell people that I love them. I tell people that I care about them. I don't expect it. You know, I mean what I say. Action speak louder in words.

And because of that, it's been working, right? You know, what you put out is what you get back. Yeah. It's very well said. It's, you know, this brings up this other question that I've been thinking about quite a bit. Like, I'm really thankful for all the medicine that we have. Like, I'm so thankful that if we got into a car accident,

we could go to the doctor and we could get fixed up. And there's so many amazing people that have sacrificed their life and make their livelihood, making everyone better. And I'm glad for a lot of the modern-day drugs like penicillin and, you know, people that can go and get a shot that will help them if they have an infection. We're really, really fortunate to live in a world

where we have achieved so much in the world of health. But one caveat that I think we're working on, and it's kind of odd to me, is that there's a lot, there seems to be, like, sometimes I talk to some doctors

that are prescribing things like medicinal mushrooms or cannabis, but they've never done them. You know, And it's interesting to me. I'm not saying it's a negative thing, but I'm saying like, it's really strange.

It must be a really strange feeling for someone to prescribe a drug or a medication to someone. And they really have no idea what it'll do for them because they've never experienced it. You know, like if I was going to talk to my friend who needed a little push and I was like, okay, I think that my particular friend, and I've done this for friends before, that we're going to some tough times,

you know what? I think if you started off. off with like a micro dose, you know, two days a week. And then once a month you did maybe three grams. I think this would change your life. And I think it's manageable. And I think you could do it. And here's how you would do it.

And I've seen them do it. And I've seen gigantic changes in their life. But I felt that, and I don't do it often, but I felt that I was qualified to do that because my relationship with that substance has, you know, has been going on for almost 30 years. And I've also been through similar problems that this person is going through. So I felt qualified to recommend that to someone. But I can't imagine not have an experience,

not having any sort of relationship with mushrooms, and then telling someone to do it. And it seems like that's a big part of our modern medical system is that a lot of people are constantly prescribing drugs for people that have never even experienced them. Do you find that weird too, or is that just me? No, I guess I get what you're saying, because it does make sense that someone is prescribing something

that they have never done themselves. And this is kind of where it's like, you know, if they haven't done it themselves, then they should refer someone that has done it because they can, you know, like, as, you know, one of the, there's good things about having anxiety and it's bad things about having anxiety.

Like, you know, the bad thing is, if you have anxiety. But the good thing is I can tell people how to do the medicine that is also anxious, preparing for it. So, like, you know, I'm like, every single time I do any kind of, apply medicine, it is like, oh my God, I have to surrender. And that's the hardest part, right?

Yeah, yeah. You know, surrender. What dose can you give them where you have to give them enough where they can break through and not, you know, if they take too little, then they can be spending their entire time fighting what's coming up. So all these things, the doctor is not going to know if they have never taken it, right? Yeah. You know, so I think it's a good thing that they're even giving it, but I think that maybe they should send a referral to someone that can actually help guide them through the process

that has been through it, right? So it's a two-part system, right? Right. Yeah, maybe that, you know, I was looking through some of the, it's such a fascinating time to be alive because right now they're building the groundwork, they're building the framework for people to go to these centers. And, you know, there's coaches there.

And, you know, maybe there should be somebody, like if someone goes to a retreat center, maybe there should be someone at that retreat center who has gone through not only the ceremony, but gone through the very ailment that the person going there has. So if someone's going there that was a rape victim, maybe they should have a person that was raped there with them. You know what I mean?

Like, or someone that has anxiety. Yeah, hey, I've been there. I've done it. Not only have I done the medicine, but I had the exact same thing that you've had. And I want to talk to you before you do it. I'm talking to you after. And here's how I did it.

I think that that sort, you know, it almost brings us back to the way, to the ceremonial setting, right? When you spoke about being in a ceremony, like you have a facilitator. You have a group of people there. You have people that have seen these ailments before. Maybe that's the one thing we're missing in the today's modern medicine

is the actual ceremonial setting? Yeah, it's the ceremony, it's the intention behind it. It's, you know, in our society, what I've noticed is people are also turning away from certain things. People need to be more connected to the creator. They need to be more connected to God. They need to be more connected to themselves, right? And so when you do it in a ceremonial setting, you're inviting, you know, that to happen, right? you're inviting the healing, you're inviting all these processes, you're creating a sacred space,

a safe container, things like that. And, you know, it's hard enough to do the medicine on its own, but it's better in a way when you're doing it with other people. Like, I often do, when I do medicine, I do it alone. You know, I have no music. I have no distractions. I have no lights. I just completely, you know, because the whole life is a distraction. People are always playing music, people are always having these things on. I am like, this is my time

to, I don't want to have any music, I don't want to have anything, but you had brought them layering. So once in a while, if I'm doing a ceremony and it's very intense, generally, it's just a come up for me that is very intense. That's the part

that I don't necessarily like. So, what I can do for that I don't know if you've heard of this medicine called Senanga I'm not real familiar with it no it's uh yeah it's these

it comes from the Amazon it's these drops they put in your eyes and uh it like it burns like hell it feels like there's like a force fire in your eyes and in your eyes are much more clear and you can see better

and apparently the drops are antibacterial, antimicrobial. And so I've used those drops in conjunction with my cellocybin ceremony. So when I'm going through something that is really difficult and I can't focus, then I just lay down and put the drops in my eyes. And the pain is so intense from the drops that the only thing I can do is I have to breathe because that's the only way to get through the pain that I forget about everything else. So that's where I'm like

Oh breathwork You know Breathwork is very important So if you can do breathwork You know doing a ceremony You can definitely Get through anything There's also

This Amazonian snuff called Hape Are you familiar with that? I've never done it I've heard about it Maybe you can tell the people about it Yeah So The Hape is

It's you can either blow it and you could either put it in yourself or you have someone that would give it to you and and it has tobacco in it amongst other ingredients so every tribe has your own recipe

and it is meant to ground you so if you're feeling ungrounded during a ceremony it can help ground you or it's also used in ayahuasca ceremonies to help induce vomit So it has multiple applications. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, that's something people, you hear about a lot in South America is like the sacred use of tobacco.

It doesn't seem to be something that we talk about a lot up here, at least in the North America. So, yeah, I don't know what, do you use tobacco in ceremonies when you, do you use tobacco in ceremonies when you, you do ayahuasca or when you do mushrooms? I use tobacco. I use ceremonial tobacco. So I'll get the tobacco from an indigenous reserve. And so it's uncreated tobacco. But I'll use the tobacco as an offering to any medicine that I use.

Right? Right. And so that's kind of how I use it. I use it as an offering. I use it in a ceremony. setting. But besides that, that's kind of my extent for using tobacco. Yeah.

You know, it's the Amazonian snuff, which a lot of people use, what I found out about that is it's also very addictive. The tobacco that is used in that Amazonian snuff is 7 to 9 times more potent than the tobacco found in America, right? so and a lot of the times when we use something you know as like I guess for me it's like does it have addictive potential like you know is MDMA healing yes it is did they have addictive potential yes it does so I personally don't want to use it but I know it has the potential to heal PTSD and different traumas ketamine is you know can it help and heal definitely

it can but is it addictive I've been I know enough people that recreationally use ketamine as well. So it's, you know, you have to, people, when they use certain substances, they have to know or they have to be aware of the positives and the negative behind it. Yeah. Yeah, doing your own research and doing your own due diligence, not only with the substance that you're going to use to try to help you, but also with the ailment you have. Like if you're depressed and you've come to the. conclusion that you're depressed. What research have you done on depression to understand what it's doing to you? It's anxiety. What research have you done on anxiety? Because the more research you do

about the thing that's bothering you, the more you can find the medicine that's right for you, or the more you can help the medicine inside you when you take that medicine. Like, hey, this is the thing that I'm working on. Like, and it comes back to intention. Here's this thing that I have that I want to get better that's broken inside of me. What are some things I can do to fill? it while I'm with the medicine. Sometimes it takes a little while to do that because it's tough to understand the medicinal environment. You know, sometimes when people take, you know, be it, mushrooms, you can easily get distracted.

You know, you can easily be astonished by the colors or the sounds or this or that and you can move away from the healing and stuff like that. So I think people who are interested in trying to become the best version of themselves, can start by being really honest with themselves and trying to figure out what is it that they can do to become the best version of themselves. But as we're coming up, Navas, we're coming up on the hour and a half mark, man.

This has been a really awesome conversation, man. I did some really great stories in there. And I love to get to hear tales from the underground of people who have not only helped other people, but were courageous enough to share their stories and truthful stories about, hey, this happened to me, here's what I did. Here's what I did for my friend. I love the underground stories.

And I think that there are a lot of people on the fringes that need help that will always turn to the underground. Like that's where I learned how to do it. That's where you learned how to do it. And it seems like a lot of people come from places of addiction or they come from broken places. But if you do come from those places, just know that there's help out to this good people. And if you're broken, that just means maybe you're broken for a reason. and maybe you're meant to become a healer later in life. Maybe you're broken so that you can fix this thing

and then help other people fix it. But before I let you go, man, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about? Well, they could find me on my website. It's psychedelicessence.com. Right now, I am just on vacation in Alberta, just visiting family. Anything that will be coming up,

I'll definitely post on my website. It's definitely a pleasure. being here talking to you, sharing stories. We'd love to do it again in the future. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, pleasure's all mine. I love connecting like this. And it's so amazing to me that two guys from across the planet can sit down and talk story for a little bit and share some of their wins and some of their losses and some of their dreams and some of their hoax, man.

So, well, hang on for one second. I'm going to talk to you briefly after this, but I'm going to hang up with the people. So ladies and gentlemen, check it out to psychedelic essence. We'll put all the links in the show notes and check out Nabi. And thank you for hanging out with us today. Really appreciate it. Aloha.