TrueLife - Nick Murray - ESPN, Traumatic Brain Injury, & Psychedelic Therapy

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/ “Down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier!!!”One of the things we all love about our athletes is their ability to make history. From time to time we get to witness triumphs of the human spirit! I think the partnership between The Athletes, ESPN, and Nick Murray (CEO of WAKE) is the next evolution in professional sports! We have seen the athletes give their life to the community & the sport, now we get to see the community & the sport give back  life to the athlete! Link to the ESPN Trailerhttps://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/36234524In this incredible incredible episode, we cover what Nick Murray, Terri, and their team have been working on passionately for the last few years.  One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's day is beautiful. I hope birds are singing. I hope the sun is shining. I hope you're in the arms of the people you love.

I got a phenomenal show here today with a phenomenal guest who's going to break some phenomenal information. The one only Nick Murray, a tech entrepreneur, full-time biohacker. He's an individual who has the ability to translate vision into reality. He want to get into this. He's the co-founder and CEO of Wake. And he's, in my opinion, adding a whole other dimension to the psychedelic space. And I can't wait to have you explain to the people a little bit about your journey. But let me just ask you first off, Nick,

How are you today? George, I'm doing great. It's great to be back. I really appreciate the invite and really looking forward to our chat today. Agreed. Agreed. For those that don't know, we had a podcast. What about three months ago when you were actually in Jamaica,

kind of, you know, streamlining the facility and streamlining the procedures and going over a business plan and creating this vision that you've had for a while. For those who may not have caught that show, maybe you can build a little bit of a foundation of who you are and how you got started and where you're at right now. Yeah, sure, George. I'm a geek. I was born a geek, you know, came out with a laptop, I think. So my background is really in technology, either figuring out how it works, building software, building hardware. And I had a really personal experience with psychedelics early on in life. And a partner that I dearly love was diagnosed with cancer. We

went through quite a journey of learning about the body, learning about the mind and really how they interact. And through that process, I really saw the power of plant medicine and really fungi medicine, not just the psychedelics, but the other parts of the kingdom, to help people and to really build up their bodies. And I thought, you know, how can I partner technology, which I absolutely love, with the body and health? Because they're both systems of systems, and they can and will interact with each other. So how do we bridge those? Because what I saw was a lot of of brilliant people kind of operating in a silo and that wasn't bridging over to the west and so i thought you know with technology we can prove it or at least we can quantify these results and so

that was really the journey that i embarked on around 10 years ago and started with a tech company that was health focused then we did really well with that and then kind of expanded into offering the same for clinical research and then that's really how i said you know i want to be a part of this this new psychedelic revolution that's coming and how can I play a part. And so it started with technology. I ended up going down to Jamaica because it was one of the only legal jurisdictions and still is on a federal basis. And once I got down there, I realized, you know, we need to do more than just the technology. We need to actually do the growing and then the providing of the medicine. And so here we are today. Three years later, we've got the largest farm in the country growing

psychedelic as well as functional and the exotic brands, which is basically the food brand of mushrooms, and then also doing therapy and retreats in the island. So it's been a really exciting journey, but really the whole idea is mixing technology with ancient wisdom of medicine. Yeah, and I think that that, I'm very fortunate to get to speak to a lot of different people in this space. And one thing that I think is definitely unique about wake and about what you're doing in Jamaica is that you, I think that you and your team have found a way to harmonize technology and biology. Like I see a lot, on some levels, I see like a race between technology and biology.

But it seems what you guys have got going on is like this harmonization. You found a way to measure and quantify a little bit of the spiritual experience. Like, that's fascinating to me. And I'm wondering if you can maybe unpack that a little bit. Yeah, I mean, really, I'm glad you see that because that's really what we're trying to do, but keep it very comfortable. We don't want technology to be in everyone's face. We don't want it to be invasive or annoying, basically, because that'll take away from the experience.

And nobody really wants to be hooked up to wires and all that stuff. So to be honest, the initial reason was I was so excited that it was actually being taken seriously. And what I'm talking about here is psychedelic medicine. So obviously mushrooms, but then there's MDMA, then there's Iboga, there's a few others. But the mushrooms, I thought, you know, this has been done before. You know, we had the 60s, we had the 70s, but then what happened? Well, then it was just shuttered. And there's a lot of reasons for that.

But what I thought was, you know, if this gets a lot of ground, how do we help to not allow it to just get shuttered again? And that was research. I thought, you know, if we could actually provide FDA regulated device research. So we only use FDA approved devices for our heart rate monitoring, blood pressure monitoring, our ECG, our EEG, everything has been approved by FDA that we use. And we wanted to be able to show to the regulators, to researchers, obviously medical practitioners like doctors, that there is data here to either people's depression scores, how their blood pressure is potentially benefited from it, their heart rate, their sleep.

All of that, I thought, you know, I want to be a part of quantifying these things so that it's not just anecdotal because anecdotal is real. I do give it more credit than a lot of the medical community does, but it's still just anecdotal. And that's not going to push the regulators to say, let's expand access. And so I thought, you know, what part can I play in this massive new industry? What little part can I do with my experience and really what my passion is, which is bridging tech and health? And that was let's use technology to be able to show researchers, clinicians, and obviously the patients, you know, that there is results here. And if the more that we can do, the N, as they call it in clinical research, is larger. And then that end will actually allow for people to feel more comfortable.

And then hopefully the access will get expanded. So that was really why I got so excited about this and got into it. But there's so much more to be done. And I really feel like we've just scratched the surface. Yeah, without a doubt. And I love the idea that it's in Jamaica or everything is above board. You know, we've seen some, we've seen some hotspots here in the U.S. With like Colorado and Oregon, but there's still, it's still similar to how cannabis was

where a lot of people are in the closet about it or they don't, they feel as if they could have everything taken from them. or maybe it's their reputation, or maybe it's, it's, you know, the close friends they have. But, you know, being in an area where things are welcome really gives you the ability to explore the territory. It's so true. You know, I meet some amazing growers, practitioners, therapists all around the world. And they are, unfortunately, operating in the dark, in the shadows. And it's unfortunate because they're brilliant.

I mean, they're doing amazing work. and they can't be public about it. They can't, you know, share it on LinkedIn. They can't, you know, really be able to provide this to others, whether it's other clinicians, growers, or patients and practitioners that really want to learn and really want to feel comfortable with this. So we're able to operate in the light,

and we're able to really bring people down. We've had a number of people come down and have experiential. So therapists, whether they're from Oregon, Colorado or elsewhere, that are interested doing some training, but even they can't legally experience the medicine. And that's an issue. If you're going to be guiding people through, you should do it.

You should actually know what it feels like, so you can speak to it. And so they've come down to Jamaica. They've worked with our team, and they've been able to experience it and learn from it. And that's really important. So we love Jamaica. It's been a wonderful home to us.

The government's been very open and helpful. They've helped with our exports to the US through the DEA. We're really grateful to be operating in a place that kind of feels like the future. Like it is a federally legal jurisdiction that will exist in other areas of the world as time goes on. But at this point, it's kind of one of the only ones where it's operating. Everybody knows that the government is kind of friendly and okay with it. We've all taken it on ourselves as a group in the country to really work with each other. to ensure that the standards are high.

And it's been a wonderful experience, just working with everyone from the Minister of Agriculture to the Bureau of Standards to really maintain that level of standard so that we can grow and we can flourish and we can be and continue to be kind of an example to the world how a federally legal country with Salisian can exist. And it's not going to be scary or worrisome. So, yeah, I'm really grateful to be operating there because it does give us that opportunity to kind of be operating in the future.

Yeah, there's a great quote that I heard is like you never get a second chance to make a first impression. And not only is it above board, but, you know, I think it's important to note that you guys are setting an example too. Like the techniques you use, the way about your going things is going to be looked at as a model for the next places that get the ability to go legal. So what are some things you're doing as like a responsible and first mover in the space to ensure that the people that come next are have a good model to follow? You know, it's it's been interesting because we've, we're friends with a lot of the people in Oregon that we're helping. And so we kind of, we, we advise them on what we thought was best practices. And then when the regs came out, we adopted some of them. So, I mean, number one is, is organic.

bio-created salocybin. It's obviously what we do. We're very much in the camp that nature knows best and that there's maybe a place for synthetics in the world, but it's just not our lane. But we wanted to maintain that as a number one. So mushrooms that were grown by nature, but we want it to be pharma-grade.

So what does that mean? It means that it's been analyzed for a number of different things, like heavy metals, mycotoxins, microbiology, and obviously the psilocybin, solosin, and then there's a number of other beautiful compounds. How much is in there? So we're not just growing mushrooms, not knowing the strain, not knowing the strength, and then kind of, you know, just hoping for the best. There's a lot of testing, lab testing, that goes into our process, and that's very important that the industry has that because, you know, there's much stronger strains than others. Golden teacher is kind of on the low side. And then you've got things like

Enigma that's, you know, eight to ten times stronger. And that's a big difference. And so knowing that what's in your mushrooms or in your product, whether it's a chocolate or a capsule, very important. So that's part of it. So we work with labs in the US. We work with labs in Jamaica. And it's important to us that we're able to learn from batch to batch how we're gaining. And then also that the industry kind of takes out as a norm. So that the norm isn't just, oh, just grow it, just, you know, make sure it looks good. There's a level of quality there.

We've also adopted the no wood use, and that's something that Oregon had. A lot of people don't know, and not to introduce any fear, but it's a reality that there is potential of temporary paralysis if there's certain types of hardwood used when you're growing your mushrooms.

And so Oregon said basically only bio, so no synthetics. no hardwood's allowed to be used in your growing. So that's another thing that we kind of, we work together on. We've been, we've had some discussions with other states. I can't say which ones because, you know, everybody's excited to know which ones are the next ones. But, yeah, we've had discussions with three states.

And, I mean, one of them is an obvious one. But the other two were very interesting to just on your first discussion, just like you said, you know, the first impression. they really were informed. They really knew what they were talking about and their questions were incredibly insightful. So I think that it's interesting to see that there's very genuinely an interest

from the high levels of government in these states to explore this and to make this a reality. And it's interesting. The last call I had just before this one was around the gun violence and how it's such a divisive discussion in America. And so if we're going to not get too far on that, then we really need to focus on the mental health of people because that's, that is the, you know, guns don't kill people,

people kill people. You know, that's the thing that's not being really discussed and addressed in a realistic way. And I've got to give it to the Department of Veteran Affairs because just recently, about two months ago, they came out and said, we're going to offer medical assistance to anybody from the VA that is suffering with suicidality. And that was a big deal because previously they had to go through the VA. And it's just, it's a little slow sometimes. This allowed for anybody that's a veteran to be able to get access at any medical facility, which had just never been, you know, available.

So it's little things that don't sometimes make the news that is showing that there's a growing acceptance that we have a problem. and we really need to deal with it. And by opening up new novel methods like psilocybin, like ketamine, hats off to the VA because they are covering people for ketamine therapy now in the U.S., which is a huge shift. I mean, it was just, it was scoffed at a few years ago. So there's certainly like an openness that's coming down the pike,

and we're happy to be a part of it. We're leveraging as much technology as we can. And we provide our platform to other therapists and other growers that want to access it and use it. So really for us, we try and take a collaborative approach. We try to really work with, obviously, our contemporaries in Jamaica, but anybody that's in the U.S. that's interested in doing their retreats that wants to leverage our platform, you know, it's available and we'd love to talk to them and, you know, have that discussion. It's beautiful.

It's the way you guys are collaborating seems. to me to be symbolic of the way the Haifa grows with the mushrooms. You're growing together to like try to make things better. You know what I mean? It's such a cool thing to think about. When I think about, yeah. I was just going to say, that's why we called it the Wake Network. The company is Wake Network, because we did want to be kind of helping and working

with others and really have a not just a network of therapists and retreat centers and clinics, but also a network of growers. And how can we work together? Because it's going to be, you know, it's going to take a lot to really. help to address a lot of the issues that we have in mental health and mental wellness. And so a network is definitely what's needed. Yeah, that's really well put. And I'm hopeful that the people who may not be aware of the possibilities of what

plant medicine can do for PTSD or depression or anxiety, you know, I'm hopeful that people are really going to begin to see how big of a shift this can be. And you know firsthand because you've been down in Jamaica and you've had to have. people come down there. You and I have you've shared stories with me about people that had PTSD, whether it was through traumatic brain injury or whether it was through being in a foreign country and being at war. And, you know, maybe we could shift a little bit to that. Like maybe you could share one of those stories about people coming down to the retreat in Jamaica, what that looks like and maybe what some of their comments were, what their, what the feel of it was like

or what their experience was like. Yeah, happy to. I think I told you the story of one of our vets last time, so I don't want to bore your viewers if they've seen the last one. So a recent guest, he wonderful, I call him a kid because I'm getting old, but he's mid-20s. And he came down and he was in a fog. He was basically zomified.

He showed up. He flew from L.A. I think his connection was in my house. Miami. He shows up at the airport. Got on the plane without a wallet. He was literally just such a zombie. And I mean, just a sweet kid. And so I don't know how he was able to just, you know, there's no water.

Like everything you've got to buy at the airport. We've all been there. And so he gets to Montego Bay. And our good buddy Riley's there. And I, you know, we're just coordinating everything. And I said, you know, Riley flew or sorry, I'm not going to say the guy's name, but he flew in before, half an hour before you, you know, just FYI. You know, he's just, he's looking for you.

And he said, yeah, his bags are lost. And it was like, oh, shoot. And he doesn't have a wallet. And it's like, oh, darn, this poor kid. And so they found his luggage, still didn't have a wallet. He shows up. And he's just, he's not present, you know. He's definitely in a fog.

And we find out that he had a vaccine injury when he was a little one, about three or four years old. and it really affected him and has just continued to affect him. And his dad is a wonderful man. I mean, he's really, his dad was the one who said, you know, we've got to try psychedelics. And they took it very seriously, you know, and then the dad actually came down,

which is actually this, the story will get even better, George. I forgot about this part. But so he, so the son comes down and dad shows up the day after. The son comes through is in quite a brain fog with all of the medical, he's on I mean it's there's one for sleep there's one for insomnia there was one for what's it seizures there was one for depression he's on at least four medications and they so we went through our protocol with him and he was kind of like I'm here because my dad said you know like he wasn't you'd expect kind of the younger crowd is so excited and then the older crowd that we

see are just kind of like at the end of their rope they're like sure sure, let's try mushrooms. You know, so that's usually how it goes at our retreats. So he does the first dose, and he has a great time. And then his dad shows up at like maybe 5 p.m. So our first dose is usually at around 11, 30, 12 p.m. So they're coming out at around 4, 5 o'clock latest. And he's just laughing and giggling.

And his dad just, you know, shows up. We've got private shuttles that bring people in. And it was the most beautiful thing to see dad who's like, is my son alive? And this guy being just giggling and laughing and comes and hugs his dad. And you could just see his dad was like, oh, my God. Like so beautiful to see that on arrival, his dad was like, wow, this is this is something special. Like I have been working tirelessly for years, decades to try and get my son back. and look at this.

You know, I've just showed up. So, so heartwarming, so beautiful. And then he did his second dose. I was kind of hoping dad would do it with him, but he didn't. And then the emails he gave, I mean, they were just so beautiful. And it was literally I can remember it. It was, thank you for giving me my son back. I knew he was in there, but he had given up.

And it was like, I mean, just imagine as a father, like, you want the best for your kid. and you don't know, you're just at the end of your rope. You're just like, I don't know what else to do. Like I have got access to the best medicine, the best doctors. They're all telling me something kind of different. Right. I mean, we were laughing over dinner together, but he said that one of the doctors was like, well, you know, we could cut a part of his brain out.

And he was like, yeah, and he was like, and it was a quarter of a million dollars to do that. And he was like, you guys have been wrong about everything so far. And now you want a quarter million. to cut out a part of my son's brain, which maybe it'll work. Like, you know? And it was like, it was, it was funny to talk about it. Man. But it was so beautiful to see that, you know, after all of the struggle that they had

been through, that something had helped him along and that they were able to hang out and laugh and talk, you know, and it was, it basically had broken through this brain fog. So, yeah, that was, that was only two months ago. And it was just wonderful. And, yeah, it's been, it's been interesting to watch his progress. Yeah. It's fascinating in so many ways to think about, like, there's some great procedures in modern medicine.

We're thankful if you get in an accident or if you have a really bad injury. It's nice to be able to get your appendix taken out and things like that. But sometimes it seems to me that there's that old anecdote of we got good news and bad news. The good news is we have lots of medicine. The bad news is the medicine doesn't work. You know what I mean? It just seems that wouldn't it be a logical alternative? to try this thing that grows in nature that people have been using for, you know, hundreds,

if not thousands of years to help heal these things. And I'm really thankful that. But I want to jump back when you said you gave him a dose, like, what does that protocol look like? Someone comes in. Is the dose dependent on someone's symptoms or is there a multiple dose protocol? Or what does that look like? Yeah.

So we always have U.S. licensed medical team on site. Okay. That's either a nurse, doctor, or both. And they look at their current medical intake as well as previous medical. So that could be, obviously, pharmaceuticals, could also be supplements, usually as both. And that dictates things. Now, we don't say you must get off of everything because that's not our place and it's something that they can talk to their doctor about. And to be honest, I mean, we want people coming in as comfortable as possible.

And what we've learned is antidepressants, which is unfortunately, there's a step. that ranges, but it's around 25% of people in the US are on or have been on an antidepressants. So they're everywhere. Those don't affect them negatively in a way that they might overdose or they might have a terrible situation. What they do though is they do block the same receptor that psilocybin operates on. So what does that mean? Usually means that they need a stronger dose.

And obviously we recommend that they titrate, lower their dose prior to coming. Now, if they could come off them, great. But really, you know, it's scary. People have been on these drugs for years. And to go off of them, you know, it's just something that is very difficult to even consider. So that's really up to them and they're doctored out of that conversation. Now, our team on site, they'll talk to the medical staff prior to coming down. And then they'll talk to our medical staff while they're down there.

And this is day two. So they'll arrive on day one. Everybody arrives at a different time. We all have dinner together, but we really recommend, like, guys, meet everybody, tour of the grounds, talk about what the protocol and the actual schedule looks like, and then get a good night's rest. So that's usually day one. Day two starts with yoga, meditation, breathwork at 7.30 in the morning. And then they have a very light breakfast.

And then they go into the protocol of talking to the medical staff, talking to our ceremony staff, those are separate meetings. and then we do our vitals and our brain scanning. So the vitals is taking their blood pressure, their heart rate, and sometimes they're ECG, and then also doing an EEG. So we have a number of brain scanners on site that we do, and that's really just to assist with research. That's not something as part of our safety protocol. The safety is very much the heart rate, the blood pressure,

and the meds check. But the brain scanning is really interesting because there's just so much we don't really know about how it affects different people and how it's pre and post can be quantified. And it's really exciting for me just, you know, as a geek. So they'll, so that protocol is where they decide how much they want to do, which strains they want to do. And if during the experience, if we want to have a booster, we call it,

available for them to have. Now, there's no requirement for them to have it. And if they change their mind later and they didn't say that they wanted one and they do want one, of course, we accommodate. And so that's really the discussion, and that's how we get to a place where, okay, you know, George is going to have four grams, and that four grams is going to be three grams of tie and one gram of eight, let's say. And that's usually actually the protocol that we go with.

And so that way, the tie is lower in strength than the eight. And then the next day, we usually flip that. And so then they have four grams, but it's three grams of the stronger one. one gram of a lighter one. Now some people want to go with three to start. Some people want to go with four and a half to start. That's usually the range. And then some, about a half of our participants,

go with a booster during their journey, either one or two grams. And that's just the sweet spot we found. Now we do serve it with juice, so it comes with either grapefruit juice or orange juice. They call it lemon tech in the industry. And that really allows for the belly to be a little happier. You know, you hear about people that feel a little queasy from mushrooms. So that helps. And it also extracts and it increases the onset.

So it actually helps the dose to get into your body or bloodstream faster. So instead of it taking 30 to 45 minutes, it's closer like 15 to 20 minutes. And yeah, so that's how we do it. We'll be offering other forms of dose. Chocolates are going to be offered in our June retreats. it just offers another access. We've only had a few people who didn't like the juice, and so it just gives another form factor for people to take their mushrooms.

It's, I love it. I love the way in which it's measured. I love the way in which people can come down there and feel at home. I love the idea you guys doing breathwork. I want to put on my philosophical hat for just a minute, and I want to step outside of what you guys are actually doing there and bring up some things of what could be happening just in the future. I was talking to this guy, Benjamin Malcolm, who's a Farm D,

and he was talking about potentially in the future, what you may see is a course of mushrooms followed up by a course of ayahuasca or maybe even the use of mushrooms with like a HGH involved in. I know that sometimes athletes will use that to help kind of biohack the way in which their performances and things like that. But have you read any research on, you know, maybe in the future, and this is just all hypothetical, but have you read any research on the future of using different courses or maybe using HGH with psychedelics?

Have you read any of the new research coming out on those grounds? Not on human growth hormone specifically, but we are very much a fan or at least open to a personalized multi-psychedelic protocol. What's that? Tell us about that. Sure. So we can only really speak to ketamine, salisabin, of course, and then MDMA, which is coming down the pike fairly quickly as far as being legal in the U.S. And so those three are the tools in the tool basket. You could call it right now that are very much at the forefront.

Now, our friends at, well, I don't know if I should give a plug yet, but we've got an amazing group at Mission with him. I love them, so I will. They do Ivoga, and they also do DMT. And so those are two that I believe in. We don't offer at our retreats yet, but they are definitely part of the kingdom, but they're just a little further out. And so I just named those three ketamine, MDMA, and Salis Simon. As far as we're comfortable with them, we work with practitioners that work with those. We don't offer ketamine or MDMA at our retreats.

But what we do see is if a somebody comes in a study participant or somebody who's suffering from mental illness, mental wellness, illness issues, they might not feel comfortable yet, either taking mushrooms or salicybin or getting on a plane to do so, because unfortunately that's the case until Oregon opens up fairly, really quickly soon here. So ketamine is a great idea for them. They can do it safely in their own state, and they can do it with licensed practitioners from their state. Usually it's not covered unless it's VA by their insurer, but the therapy that's usually married with it is covered. So it's a good way for people to kind of step their toes into the psychedelic world.

Now, it is technically a disassociative, but it's in this world, and it will give them a very similar feeling to psilocybin so that they can start there. And so we see it kind of as a progression, that, you know, they can trichetamine. It's something that's legal. It's been around for over 50 years. It is sometimes insured, covered. And then if there's an issue where it's not really working for them or it's not doing, you know, what they wanted, then it's something like, okay, well, let's look to something like salicybin or possibly MDMA.

So we see it as kind of like a customized protocol for everybody where they will be under one clinic. And we work with a wonderful clinic out of the U.S. called Revitalist that has really done it, the way that we would do it. If we were not Salisylacin and we were not in, you know, Jamaica, we were in the US, it would be how they do it. They, everybody at that company is just a true believer that this is needed.

They're just, you know, kind of brothers and sisters in this journey together. So we work with them and they recommend people to us. And then our guests, when they go back to the US, they get helped by their licensed therapists and their clinics. So we're already doing kind of a, a hybrid you could call it where psilocybin and ketamine is available under one friendship partnership.

We've got a joint venture with them. And then the MDMA part, we haven't really explored with a partner yet, but we will be. And that's how we see it. So I can't speak to the HGH part, but I do feel like there's so many commonalities. And what's so funny is that this industry gets so myopic sometimes. And it's like, you know, and it's like, no, you know, nothing's synthetic. And it's like, guys, you know, like there's so many, like penicillin is now synthetically created. It's still kind of important, you know, so there's like, you can't be so, you know, hard and fast with certain things.

And we do believe in ketamine. Now, obviously, I think salacidamins, you know, better for a lot of reasons. But at the same time, if somebody is just, if it's ketamine or nothing, then, of course, you know, let them try ketamine so that they don't end up down a road of, you know, other, other pharmaceuticals or alcohol or drug abuse because they can't, you know, self-heal or self-medicate with those things. So there's a place for all of it. But I really am excited to see a world where it is multi-psychedelic. And you have groups and companies and clinics that actually do offer the same or, or sorry,

multitude of psychedelics under the same roof because right now you've got to go to a ketamine clinic and then you've got to go to a salislybin group and they don't share data. and they don't really have a team that is informed and knowledgeable about both. And so if you go to the ketamine clinic, they're going to say ketamine. And if you go to psilocybin, they're going to. So it's like, you know, we need people who are informed on multiple psychedelics, as well as pharmacopoeia, really it would be great so that we can really tailor the therapy, tailor the dose to people on a very personalized basis.

So that's really where I see it going. Now pairing, I mean, I've heard some really really interesting things. is about NAD plus being combined with ketamine specifically. You know, in the in the underground, there's there's what's called a hippie flip and that's and that's saliscybin with MDMA. So, you know, we've had we've had people ask. I mean, MDMA is not something we can offer in Jamaica. And I mean, it's just not, we're much more interested in doing something with either Iboga

or or ketamine in Jamaica than MDMA at this point just because of the legalities. So, yeah, it's going to be a really interesting world where there is this blend. And what you're getting at with the HGH and the psilocybin or the ketamine is very much the blend of the existing traditional, let's call it, world of medical. And then this up and coming, which is obviously older than, but is new to all of us, world of plant and fungi medicine. Wow, that was really well said. And I love the idea that we touched on some of the hot button issues in there. But since we're kind of bounding, banding around ideas about the psychedelics in the space, a lot of people, Nick, say, you know what, retreats are great and psychedelics are cool mushrooms,

but we're leaving out all the people that can't afford it or might be scared to do it. You know it would be awesome if you or Wake had some sort of like a lion's main protocol or something that people that didn't want to use psychedelics can like, you can help out these other people, Nick. What do you think about that? That's interesting. It's a good softball there, George. We're very excited to actually announce that we've taken all of the learnings that we've done. And, I mean, it's just everything from, like, we've got a great partnership, friendship with the group at Kernel.

Kernel is an amazing brain scanner that uses light and traditional EEG to read your brain. And then everything we've learned about both the functional side of mushrooms as well as the psychedelic. And then everything that's required to allow for people to explore things like, breathwork, yoga, meditation at home, how do you really wrap all that together? Because it's a lot. And especially when you're suffering from something like PTSD, depression, anxiety, everything's just a chore. And it's just like, you just want to get better.

You know, you really just don't have the time to Google and go through all the research on PubMed and talk to 10 doctors. I mean, you're just exhausted. You're just tired. And so how can we wrap it all together? How can we provide something specifically for our veterans? and our athletes, people that are suffering from traumatic brain injuries who we've really kind of focused in on, to be honest, in the early days. And we really want to help everybody.

But that group, maybe it's just personally. I've just had a few knocks to the head through, you know, my upbringing and my growth. So I do feel like it's part of me, but we've just seen a lot of veterans come through, a lot of athletes come through that have really been helped by it. So how can we offer that? So we have started a wait list for our Wakewell, Lions Brain protocol. And that will really wrap things together like functional medicine. So there's no psychedelics involved in the Lions Brain Protocol as is.

We will be possibly adding like an add-on. But right now, if you're interested to know a little bit more about your chemistry, to know a little bit more about things like depression, anxiety, and post-traumatic stress, as well as how the brain works, we've really wrapped it all together and we're really excited to offer it because it does also offer one-on-one therapy, mental coaching, personal development

with licensed therapists out of the U.S. And so anybody that's interested, please go to wakewell.net slash lion's brain. And if you're a true life podcast, listener will give you a VIP to the front of the line and a discount. Nice, nice, you heard it here. So let's move into the world of athletics a little bit

because you had mentioned that, you know, you have a background there. And I know that you have told the story about Riley and so many people coming down in a previous podcast. We had talked about athletes. So what is the relationship between athletics, wake, and these retreats and psychedelics? Sure. You know, it's interesting because it started out, you know, three years ago when we really started the company and the first retreat. We had a number of athletes come down. Riley was obviously one of them.

And it was really around these guys and gals, whether they've had knocks to the head, they're dealing with a lot of issues around self. You know, you've worked all of your young age, your teenage age, your young adult life towards a goal. And some of them achieve that goal, i.e., you know, the tier one, the level one, division one athlete. They're in the NFL, NHL, MBA. and then they're not for whatever reason, whether it's injury, they just retire, they get bored of it, but now who are you? And it's a big deal, and it's never discussed because, you know, that's not on ESPN. That's not sexy.

But it's truly an issue. Like, where do you go from there? Who are you? You know, people, you're not on the VIP list for the hottest clubs anymore, and you're not getting asked for your signature. And there's a lot of issues there. So that was one of the reasons that some of the athletes, came to our initial retreats.

And that's, you know, I was just a kind of a baby in this industry then. It was like, okay, I get that. I understand that these people are really coming here for a bit of a reset and a bit of a, you know, come to Jesus, they call it, or an internal self-love that, you know, I want to basically rebuild myself and get away from who I was and focused on that, which is just driving depression, really. And focus on the next step. So that was the initial, like, okay, I get it.

why athletes are coming down. But then it really started to be clear to me that there was a corollary or a combined issue around brain injury. And that was between our veterans and that was our athletes. And it's just such a, I mean, it's talked about a lot more now, but it just wasn't discussed. I mean, as long as, you know, you weren't seeing stars and, you know, you could count backwards from 10, you were put back on the field or back on the ice. And, you know, because there's no x-ray, There's no simple, no, this is broken. They cannot play anymore. And so they call it the invisible injuries in military as well as sport now.

But that was a big issue for these athletes, unfortunately, as well as vets, that, you know, it's these invisible injuries. You know, if you lost a leg, everybody can see it. Everybody gives you sympathy and they take care of you. And the VA doesn't give you too much of a hard time because, you can clearly see they lost their leg or legs. But if you're suffering from something like depression or anxiety, or post-traumatic stress, you know, it's been a long time for us to really respect that. So that got my journey into learning a lot more and learning about, okay, what happens when

your brain is hit? You know, what happens over a course of hits? And what I learned, and this is thanks to Dr. Mark Gordon, who's just a brilliant doctor and researcher, is that when you do get a hit to the head, it affects your pituitary gland. and the pituitary gland is responsible for regulating your hormones. And so it's different for everybody what that change or that injury to the pituitary gland causes. But it basically causes the hormones to be dysregulated. They're not in the right production and the right ratio that they should be. Now, our traditional system does not test for this.

They don't test your hormones after a concussion. It's just not a typical knee-jerk reaction. biomedical. But what Dr. Gordon found and what he really kind of taught me was this is prevalent across all people that have had traumatic brain injury, whether it was kind of one bad injury or a multitude of injuries. It is prevalent. And until this chemistry is tested for and worked on, you're going to have things like depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress that will come up and you're more susceptible to. And so think about that. Our traditional model, of, oh, they're depressed, let's give them antidepressants.

Their hormones are still dysregulated, right? And now you're just going to give them more and more of these drugs because it's just whackable. Oh, well, maybe you need more of it. Oh, maybe you need this other one in conjunction with this. Ten years later, this poor guy or gal is just exhausted, and their hormones are still at a whack. Nobody's even tested for them.

And they're on 14 medications. So that was what I learned on this journey. and it was just so, so amazing. It was such a lightball moment to say, like, wow, of course these people are not getting better. Like, of course they're frustrated. These people are just, like, really just getting shunted around, different doctors, different meds, different drugs. And it's unfair to them.

It's incredibly unfair. It's bankrupting our system. And these people are a core to a family, to a loved one, to their kids, their parents. So it's affecting more than just the person. And so I thank Dr. Gordon for really opening my eyes to this because he's just brilliant. And so we've included the Dr. Gordon protocol in our lion's brain protocol as really a first line of defense. And so what it is is you get your blood taken at home or at work. So you don't need to go anywhere.

We try to make it as easy as possible. And then that will allow us to provide that data to the patient and really start to help them regulate their hormone. through supplements to get them to a place where their chemistry is better, is more in line. And they're actually a better recipient of things like psychedelics. So in a perfect world, they would go through the lion's brain protocol, which is three months, and then they would come down for psychedelics if they need it. But we found that a lot of people, once they've gone through and they, number one, understand, wow, this is why, you know, that it's my hormones that is out of whack because of.

I mean, just that realization, just that knowing is so powerful. And then if they're still needing something, then yeah, of course, we're open whether our partner in the U.S. through the ketamine clinics or ourselves in our clinics in the Caribbean are definitely open to having them down and bringing them through our psychedelic treatment. So that's been the biggest eye opener. And I wish that it was just across the board, every medical practitioner knew if you've had a concussion, whether it was 10 years ago, or last week. We got to test your hormones. We got to see where you're at because that's the number one. Let's fix your chemistry before putting you on to various drugs or various modalities. Man, Nick, I want to, I wish I could give you a hug. You're the, like, the idea of bringing in,

like, the endocrine system and the brain chemistry and the neurofeedback and the EEG. And on top of that, the integration with psychedelics, like, that's the most comprehensive, holistic approach that I've heard of. Like that's that's that is really bringing together the entire system and in or at least begin that's the most holistic approach I've heard of where everything is coming together. And it seems to me like you would have the best results when you go in and you fix the engine. You fix the interior. When you're fixing everything, you have a better chance at having a better running functioning machine than if you just try to fix one piece of it right there. I'm thankful you. Do you think that has that did that that realization? Did that that that realization?

come from your background in biohacking and technology? How did you get to that particular idea of let's bring all these together? You saw a piece here and you saw a piece there, but how did you blend them all together? How did you come up with that? Yeah, I mean, it was really just experience. I mean, I love going down rabbit holes. And one rabbit hole leads to another. It leads to another.

And then, you know, podcasts are one of my favorites. Audio books are one of my favorites. These people, these brilliant people are surprisingly accessible. So I would read an audio book, listen to an audiobook, or I'd listen to a podcast and I would reach out and I would get on a call with them and I would probably sound like an idiot because, you know, we all are at one point or another. And then, you know, we would foster a relationship, a friendship. And, you know, in the case of Dr. Gordon, it was very much just like that. You know, I listened to him on, I think it was Joe Rogan. And I thought like, this just makes so much sense.

And this was actually before we did the ESPN piece. And so I was like, you know, I want to learn as much as I can about TVI because these guys and gals are just like, I'm not a sports guy, but I was kind of in awe like that this caliber of group was coming down. So I reached out to him and then I read his book. And then I signed up for his course. And then I looked into everything he had said. And I listened to every podcast.

And it was like just rabbit hole after rabbit hole. And it's, they call it translational medicine, which it basically means, a doctor that is going through the research, PubMed, Google Scholar, and a number of journals, and then bringing it to the clinic. And it's kind of like, isn't that what all doctors do? It's like, no, they don't. And so translational medicine is what he does, and a number of amazing researchers involved doctors, but really their researchers as well do. And that is what, you know, really should be done. And it's something that I'm really excited about, not to get too off topic,

but AI is going to be that translational bridge to so many doctors that maybe doctors, they don't have time. I mean, I know they're busy. I know they're burnt out, but they probably want to know the latest of research, or at least have it available so that they don't have to read every study because nobody can. Well, AI can do that. And so we're really excited to be playing in that world where we can bring things that are the latest and greatest of research. into the clinic, into the availability of people that are going to be coming through for the LionsBrain Protocol because it's, we're on the precipice of some really, really interesting changes in medical and in research.

And if we can just make it easy and accessible, that's always been the issue where we've got some amazing stuff happening, let's say, like in a place like Israel, but it's just not available in Canada or the US. And it won't be until X, Y, and Z, and even then it'll be a thousand bucks of treatment. So it's like always been this kind of segregated world of if you know the right people and you got enough money and you can jump on a plane, yeah, you can probably get some help. But the average Joe who's on Medicare that's just, you know, trying to get by, no, like maybe in 10 years. But by then, hopefully Joe's okay. So, you know, it's been, it's been.

That's true. It's so true. It's been my mission to like just like just try and bridge all this stuff together and put it into an accessibility. product that really just makes it so that people can just get on board, you know, and we can keep bringing things to people that is proven, number one, and that is accessible. And so if we can allow for people to get access to information and actually the people and the products and the protocols that are helping, well, then, you know, that's a better world. So it's going to be a really interesting ride as we see these other states and other countries open up because

we're lucky to have done the work, you know, early on. And we've made some amazing friends in the research and medical community. And the more that we learn and the more that we kind of test and prove out inside of our organization, the more we want to open it up and provide it to people. And the surprising thing is like it doesn't normally need to cost that much money. You know, there's just a lot of reasons, you know, we could do another podcast on that, that it does cost a lot, but it doesn't need to. And so working with, and I know I'm really tired of Dr. Gordon, but he just deserves it.

Working with him, you know, he's able to do these blood tests for like a tenth of what it costs if you go to other labs. And why? Well, because they've got the best technology and they don't have a lot of fat. I mean, it's just a lot of, you know, middle management that's just not there. The hardware is actually better than you see at a lot of the other labs. But, you know, for a fraction of the cost of what you'd see at some of the other labs, the big guys, he's able to do it. And he's got partners like Joe Rogan that have really stepped up and donated. So we're just excited to bring this to more people because we just believe that it's so

undervalued right now. And hopefully it becomes common that every doctor knows. Knocked to the head, you should probably get your hormones checked. Yeah, that's really well said. And I'm glad that you were able to underscore Dr. Gordon. I think that he's doing some amazing work. And there's so many people doing amazing work. And if we're going to talk about AI and psychedelics and bicycle day in April 19th,

we should probably bring up Yachem Fever. Congratulations on being CEO, buddy. Yeah, he had a big post today. Stoke for that guy. But you know what? You had mentioned this idea. And in the beginning, we were talking about athletes and you said before the ESPNPs. Let's talk about that.

I've been wanting to talk about it, but I wanted to tease out all the things that you guys are doing that lead up to this. I think that without the foundation that we gave, then it wouldn't really have the crescendo that I was looking for. So can we talk about that ESPN piece? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we were lucky to be approached by ESPN through Riley to do a piece. And then COVID happened. And then it was like, you know, nobody knew when it was going to end. And what was beautiful, actually, is as the world opened back up, we basically did our next retreat, which was last March.

with ESPN and with a number of amazing athletes that came down. So it was a beautiful way to be like, you know, shed the darkness, get back to, you know, some sort of normalcy, and really allow for people to come down. And they really reopened our retreats. So it was great to have them come down. It was a number of people. It was NFL, NHL, wrestling, boxing that came down.

And everybody, as I alluded to before, was suffering from a form of TBI. one or another and we we brought them through our protocol and it was just amazing to see how these these guys and gals were helped i mean they they allowed for the cameras to be on they allowed for interviews to happen they were very vulnerable i mean it was so humbling to see these people who have gone through so much and and we're going through so much to to be like to bear their stories and to really you know know, just open up. You know, it was they, they're traditionally not friends of media because of many reasons, right? And they came down and they were so honest and they weren't guarded. And they

truly believed that this was a purpose and a cause that was worth, you know, really participating in being a part of and being open and honest about because they wanted others to see it. And And there's some real tear jerking moments in this documentary. I was lucky to see a little bit this week. And, you know, I really just hope that it allows for more people across the world to see that, you know what, this is worth exploring. You know, just let your curiosity run. And the baggage of psychedelics just kind of try to actually look at the science, try to look at the research, try to look at these people's stories and how it did help them along their journey.

you know, we kind of, we joke that like this is going to open it up to, you know, the next wave of people and Joe Sixpack is going to be more open to, you know, exploring things like psychedelics and mushrooms because it traditionally has just been, you know, the Timothy Leary crowd or the hippie crowd or just the early adopter biohacker crowd. And what we need is for, you know, the everyone to really say, wow, I recognize that guy or gal from TV, from sports. You know, they, they're not a paid spokesperson for Wake. They came down because they wanted to try something new, and they did.

And this is their story as raw as it gets. And so maybe it's worth, you know, them trying or somebody that they love to try it. And I mean, if that happens, and I'm hopeful that, you know, at least one person will say, you know what, I'm going to give it a try, then, you know, I feel like we've done a good job. So really excited about it. We've had some amazing groups from UPenn. So we're doing a showing at UPenn on Sunday. And then we're also going to be doing a showing at Cooper Health in New Jersey a few days after that.

And then for everybody else, especially me up here in Canada, we'll be watching it on ESPN Saturday at 1130 Eastern. So that's the premiere for all of us, all of us, Normie's over here. Exactly. Okay. If you can't come to our screening, then yeah, 1130 a.m. this Saturday. 11.30 a.m. Saturday, you know, I want to send a shout out to ESPN and all the athletes.

I think athletics is something that touches everybody's life. Like, whether you're a young kid that played t-ball or a young girl that was in gymnastics or a young boy that was in gymnastics and a girl that played t-ball, whatever. You know, I think that everybody has been touched by the World Health Athletics. And athletes tend to be a role model for so many young people. They overcome adversity. They leave the places of trauma and become figures bigger than you can imagine. They become the storybook hero.

And we often don't think about the pressures they go through. We just see like the Michael Jordan and all the billboards. We don't understand what it takes to get there. We don't see the millions of free throws that people shoot in order to get there. We don't see the tragedy, what it's like to leave your family and live this new life. And we definitely don't get to see all of the trauma. You know, some people see boxers and begin to see them slur their speech or MMA fighters and stuff like that.

So for athletes to come down and be so candid, I think is an incredible move on their part. And I applaud them. For ESPN as a media company to come in and be so candid. Like I think it speaks volumes of how much they care. You know, it's beautiful to see a shift of this media company. It's like, hey, we care about our guys. We're going to bring them in and do this. I wish there was more of that because I think it speaks volumes of not only the company that's allowing it to happen, but their connection to the people that want to see it.

And they're building a bridge right there. I think it's a beautiful thing. And I'm hopeful that we get to see more of that because I think that it's something that everybody can be inspired by. And it shows a dimension that's not really covered in media today. It's not really covered in the talks. It's kind of kept behind the scenes there. And I think they chose the right people to do it there. I'm really thankful.

So it's Saturday 1130 a.m. I know I've talked to you to get to see some of the highlights. I'm excited to see it. Have you saw some, you said there was some tear jerking going on in there. Like what was the part that in the trailer that made you kind of like kind of take a deep breath and be like, wow, this is a good one? Well, I mean, they let us see a little more than the trailer just recently. Okay. All right, all right.

So the trailer is a little more of a teaser, you know, not so cheater. But it was exactly what you just said. It was exactly the stories you don't hear or see on, you know, Sunday night football. One of them specifically was a guy who, you know, he lost his grandma and he, him going to the schools to see them was with grandma. And so, and she was so enmeshed in his, in his life of an athlete, whether it was, well, it was NFL and CFL in Canada, that him losing her was like, was, was analogous to him losing his career. And, and he did kind of end both the same time. And it was just like, it was so sad to see somebody who was so like, he just loved his grandma. And I mean, I think it was personally because me and my grandma were just so tight.

Sure. You know, and I could feel exactly what he was talking about. And I could see how, you know, he did it for her almost. Like, of course, you know, he was enjoying the sport. But there was just such a combination of, you know, grandma, football, schools, and all of it together. And it was like it's just part of the human experience that those we love, some of them pass away. And so it was just part of that him growing as a person. But at the same time, him just being open about it and honest about it.

and he's talking about it. It was a sad one. And then a guy who I've just become really good buddies with Steve, who I think is just going to be the star of this. I mean, he's just such a lovable guy. You know, he was being very open and honest. And he had had a very tough time, you know, with just all of it, from being a kid in hockey to being on the ice,

to being, you know, after the ice. And what's interesting is that Riley was basically the, And I'm trying not to do any spoilers here. But Riley was the enforcer. He was like his protector on the ice. So Steve is a gold medal winner for Canada in the juniors and did really well in the NHL. So these guys were brothers. They really were.

And they're both Canadian, both made it big in the U.S. I mean, a very parallel story. And to see that like they've maintained their. friendship after, you know, the lights go off, so to speak. And that now Riley was kind of helping his brother through after, you know, after the lights go off. It was just like, wow, like this was not just a, you know, transactional, like we're on the same team kind of thing. It was like after, you know, 10-ish years after, I'm going to help you, brother. And, you know, I've found help in plant medicine and fungi medicine. And I think it'll help you. And so he brought him down and, you know,

you'll have to see the documentary to see the story. But, you know, it's just one of those beautiful stories that it's just great to see. Yeah, it speaks volumes. Like, it's so multi-layered. You know, sometimes when I think about the healing power of plant medicine, I think one of the things it does really well is break down boundaries. And it's amazing to hear this, this, it's amazing to hear the story of people that are taking the different plant medicine, just breaking down boundaries.

And then you see weight coming together with ESPN and athletes. And even though you have different labels, you guys are all seeing together like this healing moment. Like it breaks down the boundaries. And you guys are like one group of people that are witnessing this change. I think that's a – and I'm really hopeful to watch that documentary and see that come through because I think that that is what translates, not only to people healing themselves from anxiety or depression,

but that's the kind of thing that can heal societies working together. Like, oh, I'm just the same as this guy. I may look different. This guy's probably six, nine, and I'm probably five, four, but, you know, we do have these things in common. Or I'm behind the camera. This guy's in front of the camera, but guess what? I'm still feeling the same thing he is. Like, that seems to me to be something like a pattern that is going to be beneficial for people to consume like that way.

What do you think about healing? boundaries and in getting this piece on ESPN out there. How do those things all fit together in your mind? That's a good question. You know, we see it. We've had over 200 people come through our retreat. So we've met a lot of people. And there's a lot of commonalities.

You know, you do see, and I was asked recently, you know, how do you, how does the group therapy you guys do at the retreats? How does that, how does that differ from what we see? in the clinical research world, which is person in a room, two therapists, male, female, person on their own. You know, that's, that's, that's clinical research. And there's a place for that, 100%. But we really believe in the group. And the reason why, and this is what I told, this journalist, was, you know, there's, there's so many commonalities to our stories. Now, everybody's unique 100%, but there's commonalities where just hearing from somebody else that they had,

you know, maybe a mother or father passed recently. And this is what that mother or father represented to them. Or they've gone through, you know, a loss of love or a divorce. And this is the combination of, you know, like anger and despair and hopelessness that they're feeling. That feeling is just so, you know, it crosses boundaries. It crosses divides of age or sex or culture that when people hear it, and even though it's somebody they've just met today or yesterday from the retreat, it opens up their boundaries and it says, you know, I'm not, I'm not so hard done by. Like, this is part of the human experience.

This is something that, yeah, it sucks, but it's part of it. It's part of living. And I'm not so different. I'm not, you know, the, the unlucky one in my friend group. It's actually something that happens. And that person over there just shared their story. Well, I'm okay to share my story now and I'm okay to be very vulnerable in front of these people that I just met. So that openness actually allows them to dive into the medicine a little more comfortably. Now, what I was going to mention in the beginning was it's very interesting to see people, and most people that come to the retreats have never tried psychedelics. So, you know, just to be very clear, this is much less of a like, let's go and do mushrooms

in Jamaica. this is people that want to come down and go somewhere that they like, that they've been told is a good place. So they'll come down in the first dose they do. It's usually, obviously, like with a little reticence, a little nervousness. And then on the second dose, they're just like, let's go. I'm comfortable. I understand it. I mean, and there's so many commonalities of the fears.

Like they all think, am I going to run around naked? I mean, I get that all the time, all the time. And they all, like, kind of whisper it. And it's like, dude, you're the fourth person on this trip that asked me that. Don't worry. That never has happened here. I think you're going to be fun. Or they're worried.

And these are all, like, they're not crazy ideas to think, you know? Like, it's, it's, I'm just so, every single retreat we do, I'm so proud of the people who come down. Because usually they've never been to Jamaica. They've never tried psychedelics. they have tried everything. They're depressed. They're not like, let's go get it. You know, they're very like, you know, it takes a lot for them to really come down.

I'm so proud of them. And really, because it's just, it's not easy to make that step. So they'll come down. They'll have like a commonality of questions or worries. Am I going to say something, you know, about my trauma, about my past that embarrasses me in the group? It doesn't really happen. Am I going to run around naked? am I going to do something like might endanger myself?

All these questions come up and it's a commonality. Everybody has the same worries and it doesn't happen. So what's the biggest beautiful commonality is people are like, I was present, you know, like I thought psychedelics meant I'm gone. It's like I'm hypnotized. And I just wake up and it's like, what did I do? It's not like that. And that's what is the most beautiful aha moment between the first dose and the

second dose is where people say, I was, I was living my story and seeing it from every angle, but it wasn't like, it wasn't driving my fear like it would be if I was just lying, you know, on a couch in therapy where I'm reliving, you know, a particular experience in my past. And what happens is they are reliving it. And their body and their brain doesn't know the difference between it's happening or I'm just remembering, you know, an issue or an unfortunate event in my life. And that's why it's so hard to get breakthrough with things like just talk therapy, because you're reliving it.

And so the heart goes up and the cortisol shoots up. And now you're literally like fight or flight is very difficult to break through. Whereas with psychedelics, you're seeing it from all angles. It's like you know, 10,000 feet up and you're looking down. And you know it's you, but it's that feeling of it's like a video game character. And you're seeing what happened and you're seeing it from other people's perspective. And you're looking at it differently. So that's why on the second dose, people are like, wow, I was present and I remember it all.

And I'm okay. Like I can, I'm ready to go deeper. So yeah, that's, hopefully that answers your question around boundaries. But it's really interesting to see. Like we've, we've never had somebody that said, I'm not doing the second dose. And I mean, that's a big, I mean, 200 odd people. I mean, that's like even if 1% would be, wouldn't sound like a lot, but it would be. Everybody's done the second dose.

Everybody has gone deeper, whether it was, you know, a very similar dose, but they just were more relaxed. So they went into a deeper kind of state because of that comfort they had. But it's been really interesting. And the bond that people come out of are retreats with and the familial vibe. Like everybody is on a secure signal group chat. And I mean, I'm on all of them. And like years later, they're sharing. I just had a kid.

I just went to this place. I love you guys. I mean, it's such a familial vibe that it's so cool, like what five days can do with a group of strangers. It's really interesting. Yeah, it speaks volumes to like neuroplasticity and experience and wellness and performance and meaning. Those are just giant concepts. But, you know, I think after you have experimented or become familiar with the psychedelic environment, you really begin to unpack those giant concepts and you can move around.

I love the way you described it as getting to be the observer in some ways. You know, you get to, I once read an article that said something along the lines of, the brain doesn't know the difference between reality and something you vividly imagine. And when you're in the psychedelic state, you can relive those experiences from an observer's point of view. And maybe that's what allows you to change the. meaning of that event because people say that depression is being trapped in the past, anxiety is being trapped in the future. But if you can relive that experience and ascribe a new meaning to it, you can get yourself

out of that thought loop, right? And you no longer repeat those patterns of negativity and there's just so much growth in there. I'm so stoked to get to hear you explain them those ways. Yeah. Well, that's the default mode network, you know? That loop is the default mode network. And it's the brain trying to help us, you know? Like, it's truly a good friend.

and it's like, well, we got to save battery. We got to save power. Well, how does it do that? Well, let's do a low, low power mode, kind of like on your phone. Okay, what's low power mode? Well, it's only going to do, you know, the bare minimum, and it's going to have routines. And it's trying and thinking this is going to help you. But it's like those routines is, unfortunately, can be a depressive routine of like,

I'm not good enough. I should have done this thing. I shouldn't even try because I'm going to get, you know, I'm going to fail. And so you go into that loop. Now, yeah, you're using less power, but it's just, you know, it's just a circle. And so with psilocybin and ketamine, it drops the default mode network, which is really interesting because it's a contrast where you're actually shutting down the default mode network, but we know this from EEGs that you're actually increasing the connectivity of different areas

of the brain that don't normally talk to each other. So shutting down one part, but actually lighting up another part. And that's the interesting combination where, you know, you're able to get out. that depressive thought pattern and you're able to look at things differently because there's different areas of the brain that are connecting. So yeah, it's really interesting to see it, obviously, with the discussions when they come out of the journey, but then to look at the science and be able to see, oh yeah, the default mode network is always shut down as long as the dose is strong enough. And then the activity of the brain is like amplified quite a bit. I mean,

there's some beautiful visuals if you just do, you know, psilocybin pre and post. I think it was Imperial. There's a beautiful photo of showing the actual connectivity if somebody's not on psalocybin and if they are. And it's just as clear as day that it's certainly, you know, connecting different areas of the brain that don't normally talk to each other. So if someone comes down to the retreat and is that something people can see with like the EEG and then the integration, like it almost seems like if you could place those two patterns on top of each other, then you can really begin, someone can really start putting it together. Here's how your brain looked.

Here's what your thoughts were. Do you see how those are connected there? Like, is that, is that something that people can see with the EEG machine or the neuroimaging that you guys do? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we give them, we call it the athlete report, but it's the report after their journey. And that shows their clinically validated tools. So that's, that's either a depression score, an anxiety score or PTSD score.

Usually it's all three. but depending on why they're coming down, they'll see, and they're called patient reported outcomes, but they're basically forms that are clinically validated to analyze your depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, quality of life. And so those are in the report. So you can see prior to coming down while you were there, post, how you progressed with those scores. And then also we show their blood pressure, their heart rate, and then their brain scan kind of the contrast, so the pre and the post. And so there's a number of things there. We work with Kernel, which is just an awesome company.

That gives us a deeper insight into the brain. You can see it at the lion's brain landing page there. The EEG is a wonderful device, but it uses, it's only copper. So it's using basically a copper on the head. And we work with a 14 channel, and then we've also got a 32 channel, which just means the amount of connectivity spots. But the kernel, it actually uses both that, EEG, and functional near infrared. So it's called FNIRS.

So it's using light. And what's amazing about that is it's sending light pulses down to the scalp thousands a second that is then bounced back and read by a laser, so it's lasers in and that's optical sensor out. And then we're seeing, okay, what's that contrast? And what does that show us? it shows us the hemoglobin concentration. So you're seeing not, and they call it the kernel flow for that reason, because you're not just seeing, you know, if I had the EEG on your head right now, George,

I would see flashes of activity. But I wouldn't know that the blood or the activity went from one area to the other. I would just know A, B, but I don't know if it went like this or like this. And for some people, you know, they're like, whatever. I get to see their brain waves and it's better than nothing. But the advancement and what I love from my geek side is that this is just like technology did with the internet. We went from copper, whether it was a phone line or then a dial-up and then a DSL line. Then we went to fiber and fiber is light. So we went from like electrical

to light in the internet world. And now we're doing the exact same thing with brain scanners. We're going from electrical to electrical and light. We're doing both. And so it's very interesting that we're getting a deeper resonance of actual data to say, this is the hemoglobin flow. This was the concentration at this point when we asked this question, and this is where it was a second later. And we can see that the blood flow went from here to there. So really, really interesting to just to leverage these powerful pieces of technology that are very new.

I mean, they gave us the second one they ever made. And so it's been wonderful to work with them and you'll probably see the kernel in the in the documentary. We had it on a number, well, all the athletes put it on. But yeah, it's been, it's been really cool to leverage this technology and be able to quantify some of the things because it's still such early days. Like we, we will see obviously differences prior and post-salis-cybin. Some of our most brave people actually wear it, you know, in a part of the journey, which is just so cool. That is awesome. It's really interesting. And there's so much coming that we'll be releasing this year around it. And we're going to be bringing the

kernel onshore so that people in the U.S. can actually use it and really chart their own progress. And that's with psychedelics or not. We really want to offer it up as a tool that people can use. So if they're doing a particular athletic treatment or if they're doing something around their own personal development, they can do a brain scan prior and post. And we'll we'll make it accessible at the number of clinics that we're working at in the U.S. But it's so much to learn. Like we know that there's different brainwave states. And we know what like alpha, beta and theta and delta and gamma, like we know what they

predominantly do. But those are, that's one side of it. Then there's particular areas of the brain. And we know what the average human is a healthy, so to speak, human is supposed to have as far as activity goes on in that area of the brain. But then certain areas, if it's. especially if it's a traumatic brain injury, patient or participant, you know, that area of the brain is not as active.

So, like say it's an athlete, like a hockey player, like they know they got a concussion. Right. But if it was a hockey fight, they don't know which blow to the head, you know, really affected them, right? It could have been this side, that side, above, whatever. With these tools, we can actually say, you know, we're seeing less activity in this sector of the brain, this quartile of the brain. So that allows them to say, you know, wow, okay, yeah, I can see why my motor skills are limited because the motor cortex is getting less blood,

is actually having less activity. So let's focus in on treatment, on therapy, on that area of the brain, so that it's a little more effective. Man, it's so, like it makes my mind start racing. And I love the idea of healing. And I love the idea of the imaging and psychedelics and everything working in unison. But as my mind starts racing, the word optimization comes to mind because healing is a form of optimization. But what if we took it to the next level and people that are already in a healthy state?

It seems like these technologies could be used to push the idea of optimization even further. Some of the same technologies probably could be used further. Have you guys thought about doing some of that kind of stuff? 100%, George. Well, because really, I mean, that is what real health care is. Yes. Our system is built on break fix. You know, no oil changes.

No higher changes. It's just like just drive the car until it's on the side of the road and then call insurance. And then we'll maybe fix it. It's like, you know, in all the other areas of our life, there's maintenance, there's optimization. I mean, like imagine planes were like that. And there was just no, you know, checks on the engines. And it was just like, well, lost another plane today. You know, it was, it's just, it doesn't make sense the way it works.

Now, financially, it's beneficial. And, you know, I've talked to a number of people in, in the system, so to speak, that they, they explain why, you know, per capita, the U.S. spends more than any other country in the world. But when you look at the actual results, they're just, they're abysmal. And it's because of this model. It's because it's been set up with this kind of like, you know, get birth. broken, get fixed, and there's a lot of money to be made in that. So we're very much focused on.

Let's really try to leverage psychedelics, not just for the sick. I mean, we're open to everybody. We're like the, you know, bring us your tired, you're sick, your week. Yeah. The Statue of Liberty. But, you know, we really want people to come in that are making this a maintenance protocol. They're coming in, you know, every year, every 18 months. You know, we're definitely not a company to say people should be doing psychedelics every month.

But, you know, we do see that there's a lot of wonderful, like there's a beautiful couple that I met recently that once a year, they do psychedelics together. And, you know, they've got a couple of young kids. The kids are taken off to grandmas. And they go to, you know, a place either domestically or internationally. And that's part of the maintenance on their marriage. And it's not like they wait until things get really bad. It's just that's what they decided to do. And so we want a world where that is kind of just a normal thing.

And my goal has been, and it's going to be a tough one to do, but I think we can get there, where people can actually have a psychedelic dose for the same price and the same accessibility as a massage. You go in, I don't know what it's like in Hawaii, but it's probably wonderful. But a massage in Canada, is roughly around like $240 to $280 for like an hour, 90 minutes.

It's expensive, but it's covered by insurance. And people just do it, you know? Yeah, people, if they've got so stiff neck, they go for a massage. But a lot of people just go because it's covered by their insurance. They want to make sure that they, you know, they basically get the value out of their insurance. So they go. And if we can make that a reality, I think that's going to be a better world.

there's a really interesting culture in Mexico, in Oaxaca, that it's part of the rite of passage, that you're in your teen, so bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah, age. And instead of, you know, like what we do in Canada, we just go to a bush, and it's a bush party, and everybody's drinking their parents' liquor, not very mature. Instead of that, they're actually doing psychedelics. And it's very mature. It's done with people, the guides that know what they're doing. But that is their coming of age.

That is their welcome to the world. You're an adult. This world is more than, you know, you understood prior to this experience. This is a connected world. You need to respect nature, respect your fellow person. That is the most, it's just such a mature way to, you know, do that right of passage. And so, you know, that's not because they're broken at 13. That's because they want to, you know, level the way.

them up and as you said optimize them yeah so 100% that's that's where we would love the world to get to and that's what we would love to be is is not just you know focusing on people that are that are you know at their at the bottom of the barrel but really supporting people along their their health journey because the more that you understand your body the more that you actually take care of it whereas you know if it's very much just you know you don't get the the education around diet or the education around activity and exercise, and you just kind of call the doctor when you're sick. I mean, it's just a broken model.

And unfortunately, that's just the model that we've been given. But, you know, there's a much more mature model here available. And I think that by blending psychedelics kind of early in life and, you know, frequently, as frequently as you need, I think it really keeps you connected to yourself. And if you're connected to yourself, then it's a lot easier to connect to others and to the world around you. Man, I'm so glad you said that.

That's such an astute point, and I agree wholeheartedly. The idea that we study sick people for health is just so backwards. Like, we should be studying the people that are playing at the highest level and trying to figure out what those brain patterns are like. On the topic of rites of passage, Aldous Huxley is a great author, and everybody knows him for the book Brave New World, but he wrote another book called The Island. that book, the island, they talk about this place where they use the mokshaa medicine,

but it's it's mushrooms. It says right in the book. And it talks about these rites of passages of kids when they're on the cusp of teenagers climbing this mountain and having a mentor and sitting in this church and going through this sacrament. Now, it's all fictional. I'm not saying the kids in their teens should go do that. But I think that on some level, if we just look at history, look at the Elusinian mysteries. You could make the argument that that was a right. of passage using a psychedelic substance. You know, it's in the literature that we use. And when we look at the world we live in, we're so absent rights of passage or these

cultural moments of moving from childhood to adulthood. And I think there's a lot there. And I hope that that is the next chapter that we move to because I think it's an important one. It's psychedelics on some level are almost like getting the instruction manual to your brain. because you really begin to learn how to use it. You begin to say, oh, I'm a third person. Oh, if I did these five things, that would happen.

Or, God, why am I such a dummy? Why did I do that? Oh, okay, I'm a dummy, but let me get over and not do it anymore. Like, you really are given. And maybe that's why second adult is given at that age. Like, okay, now you're an adult. Let's learn how to start using. Let's see what you're capable of.

But Nick, I'm having such a fascinating time talking to you. And I've taken up quite a bit of your time. But I'm confident that in the future, there's going to be way more we can talk about. And I want to say thanks to you, thanks to Wake, thanks to ESPN and the athletes for having the courage to get this out there. And I think it's going to be a game changer for the world of media, the world of athletics and the world for psychedelics

and the world of people like yourself that are really pushing the envelope to help people in the mental wellness space, man. Before I let you go, please give me some of the, the links to the people that you've spoken about, where people can find you, where they can learn more about the retreat and what you got coming up. Absolutely. And George, thank you for doing true life.

I think you're onto something amazing. I've enjoyed a lot of the episode. So it's a pleasure to be here. Links, we're wake.net. That's our kind of corporate site. Then if you're more of like a customer and you want to learn more about our product services and the Lions Brain Protocol,

it's wakewell.com. And Dr. Mark Gordon is easy to find. Just do Dr. Mark Gordon and Joe Rogan. You know, there's a bunch of episodes there that are wonderful. Riley, he's everywhere. So you can hit him up on Instagram or on LinkedIn. Just a true soldier in this and just a really great person. And so, yeah, happy to connect everybody.

I'm available at nick at wake.net. I'll try and, you know, I respond to everything. So, you know, hit me up if you've got any questions. And, you know, we'd love to have you down. We'd love to have you a part of the Wake Network in one way or another. So on a related note, like I've spoken to some people in different parts of the world that would probably be interested in talking to you or maybe having you consult with them. Is that something that you offer to people if they were to reach out to you and want to learn

about how you're doing, what you're doing about different protocols? That's something you're open to? Absolutely, George. Honestly, it's a rising tide that's all boats. And we just really want to, everything we've learned, you know, a lot of it's around safety, a lot of it's around efficacy. And so, you know, happy to share it because we want people to have a good experience. Man, it's exceeded all my expectations, man.

I'm so stoked. Ladies and gentlemen, do yourself a huge favorite. ESPN, Saturday, 1130. Let's show ESPN. Let's show the world of psychics. Let's show everybody in this space that we're all behind them. Like I think that the more of us that support this, the better it's going to be, the more we break into the mainstream, the more we help states with health care. Like, I think that this wake and ESPN partnership could be the things that people could take to a city council meeting that could help them really break the ice.

So I'm really thankful for it. Everybody listening to this. Make sure you check out the documentary. It's going to be amazing. I'm looking forward to it myself. And Nick, I hope you'll come back soon. I hope we have tons more great things to discuss. but that's all we got for today.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here and taking part on this. Aloha. Thank you, man. Yeah. All right.