TrueLife - Nicole Runyon - Technology & Child Development

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Meet Nicole Runyon, a compassionate licensed master social worker (LMSW) based in Michigan, dedicated to making a positive impact since 2003. Specializing in the unique challenges faced by the children and adolescents of the igeneration, Nicole navigates the intersection of parenting, technology, and the overarching cultural influences on their development and mental health. With over 4000 hours of supervised clinical work experience and a wealth of expertise, Nicole independently practices in Michigan, providing invaluable support to individuals, couples, and families.Nicole’s commitment to excellence extends beyond her initial training, as she diligently engages in 45 hours of continuing education every three years, ensuring her knowledge remains current with DSM diagnoses and evolving treatment methodologies. Her educational journey began at the University of Michigan, where she earned her bachelor’s degree in psychology in 2000. During her undergraduate studies, Nicole delved into the complexities of women’s issues within the realm of psychology.Furthering her education, she embarked on a transformative journey at Ohio State University, where she initially pursued a Master of Social Work degree. Nicole’s global perspective expanded with a semester abroad in Prague, Czech Republic, focusing on the study of women in post-modern communism. Returning to her hometown, Nicole completed her graduate degree in social work at Wayne State University in 2003.Nicole Runyon’s profound dedication, coupled with her extensive knowledge and experience, establishes her as a beacon of support for those navigating the intricate challenges of life, relationships, and the evolving landscape of mental health in the digital age.https://www.nicolerunyon.com/about One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Monday. It's the holidays. I hope everybody has caught a little bit of that Christmas spirit. Sometimes it can be tough during the holidays. If you're having a tough time, you're listening to this, guess what?

I love you. I hope you have a beautiful Christmas and I hope a little miracle happens to you. I hope the sun is shining or there's a silver lining. And I hope that this show can be a silver lining or a beam of sunshine for whoever's listening or watching or whoever's here today with this true life community. I have a cool, incredible and insightful guest who's got a passion for helping people today. I want everyone to meet Nicole Runyon. She's a compassionate licensed master social worker in Michigan, dedicated since 2003 to supporting children and adolescents in the digital age. With over 4,000 hours of clinical experience,

Nicole specializes in the intersection of parenting, technology, and cultural influences on mental health. Continuously updating her expertise with 45 hours of education every three years, Nicole is committed to staying current with evolving treatment methodologies. Her educational journey includes a psychology degree from the University of Michigan and a master of social work from Wayne State University in 2003. Nicole is a beacon of support for individuals couples and families navigating life's challenges in the digital era. Nicole, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to you. Yeah. It's what an interesting time we live in, right? Absolutely. What should we talk about first? Well, maybe a little bit of a backstory. I've

always found that people who are looking for ways to help children and adolescents in some ways seem to be maybe helping themselves a little bit. Maybe you can give us such a short little backstory of how you've got to be so passionate about what you're doing. Sure. I have been practicing for 20 years seeing kids the whole time. And that's really where my heart is because I think the kids are essentially our future. And if we can sort of get to them before they become wounded adults, then we could change the world, literally. So what I noticed is, you know, in the past 10 years with the kids is a really huge sort of shift in their mental health. And what I was seeing a lot of is kids who were presenting with some really major mental health issues

with no root in any kind of psychosocial reason. So what that means is what I was seeing in front of me in my office was not from trauma, was not from neglect, was not from anything that outwardly or based on the parents' reports that I could see causing such severity in the symptoms. So I really kind of went down this road of, and I'm a dot connector. I really, I always want to know why things are. So I went down this road of trying to ask myself and figure out why, why am I seeing such severity with no root in anything psychosocial. And I, over the last 10 years, I've kind of developed about eight different explanations with a heavy, heavy focus on technology and how it's affecting their development

and coupled with what I call the culture of parenting. And, you know, parents today, of course, are well-meaning and loving and wonderful. But what's happening is we're parenting out of our wounds. So we have our childhoods, which are one end of the pendulum, and then the pendulum swings really far in the other direction. And what's happening overall is that the parents aren't allowing their kids to be uncomfortable or deal with disappointment or anything hard. So what we're seeing with the kids is a lot of what looks like trauma, because they aren't being taught to be independent. They aren't being taught to cope and deal with their feelings. And then on top of it, we're putting a device in their hands that's making their dopamine surge every day. Many of them constantly,

because they're on their phones constantly. So there's two factors put together really causing a major chaotic mess for kids today. It sounds like generational trauma plus technological innovation equals traumatic experience. A hundred percent. With then a lack of understanding of how the family system works. Right. And a lack of understanding that parents really have the power to make the change. Because then what's happening is they're flooding the mental health system with kids needing therapy, with kids, you know, going to psychiatrists and getting medication.

And it's not working. And in fact, it's kind of making things worse because the mental health system is now overloaded with kids that are just not getting the right kind of help or treatment. And you, we spoke a little bit about, parenting out of a wound, is a big part of this crisis because of maybe the parenting generation that maybe they never got help? Is that to the idea of generational trauma? Absolutely. So if you look at just right now, like Gen X is mainly raising Gen Z. Gen X is the forgotten about generation, the neglected generation, right? I think you look like a Gen X, I am too.

And so in some ways, you know, most of us Gen Xers are a little bit nostalgic of a time when kids had independence, right? Because we recognize that that was really good for us. The thing with Gen X, though, is that our emotional needs weren't being met either. So it's good to give the kids the independence like we had, but we have to couple it with caring about their feelings and being concerned about their developmental needs. And so because us Gen Xers were on that extreme where we were fully neglected, we have swung the pendulum too far in the overindulgent direction, right?

And that's the parenting out of our wound. So Gen Z, we all know what's going on with Gen Z, right? They're not all right overall. And now they're entering in the workforce and they're really struggling. And people working with them are really struggling to work with them because they're often, they're very fragile. They're often offended by the smallest of things. And, you know, the world or the, you know, the real world really shouldn't be or can't

overcorrect what was missing in childhood. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that there's like a, when I think of Generation X and not like my kids or whatever and I take an honest look at my flaws, like there's a lot of misplaced anger in that, like especially towards authority. Like maybe, maybe that's the way I grew up or whatever.

But it seems to be with my Gen X friends. Like they're like, you know what? These boomers, forget about them. You know, like, and I'm just wondering,

is that something that people are seeing in the workplace with Gen Z is maybe this, maybe the anti, maybe the fragile is a sort of misplaced anger. I, yeah, I think that that is a really insightful way to put it. I think because we were,

again, we were so neglected by the authority figures, by the people that were supposed to be caring for us. So you're right. There's this rejection of that that we trickle down onto our kids, right? You don't have to respect your teachers. You don't have to, you know, listen to your coach. And sometimes that's appropriate, right? It's always good to kind of push back on authority and resist a little bit. But not to that extreme. Spoken like a true exer.

I love it. I love it. So in your experience, what specific? What specific challenges do children from the I generation face in their mental health and overall development due to technology? Yeah. So what technology is doing is every developmental stage requires some discomfort and some pain to grow. So like that cliche growing pains, right? And so what technology is doing is it's preventing from the discomfort because it gives such a huge dopamine surge. It allows you to avoid doing hard things.

You know, I always like to point out, I mean, we all know the research is out, we all know social media is bad for you, right? So I like to kind of dig even deeper and point out benign things like the weather app, for example, and talk about how it really impedes on children's critical thinking skills or the development of. So cognitively, kids go through a big growth bird at seven. They start to become concrete and more conscious of things. And so we really, at that point in their development, we want to give them lots of mind challenges and critical thinking exercises. And so if kids at that age have an iPad or they grab their parents' phone and they go and they click on the weather to give them an idea of what the day is going to be like and how they should dress, then they're not using that. cognitive ability. And so it's impeding on that. So, you know, I do. I like to bring that up as as something to really critically think about. Because like I said, we all know, yeah, video games

aren't good. Social media isn't good. But do we really, have we really thought about what every piece of having a device, how it affects them along the way in their development? Yeah. It echoes back to the Socratic dialogues. And in the story, Tameas, they tell a story about the inventor of writing and how he's so excited about this new technology. Like, I have, oh, great master. I have made this new technology called writing and it's going to help the humankind so much. And then the leader says, actually, it's going to make them worse. Because now people will have the ability to hear about a story, but they'll never have the lived experience.

And basically, that idea is atrophying the same way that when people look at a weather app, instead of going outside and being like, okay, the clouds are up there. It might be a shower, but it doesn't like it's going to stay. Now they just look at that app and when they go outside, how come it's not raining anymore? You know, it's an interesting idea of atrophy and critical thinking. I never thought about it. That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And if you think about it, you know, I get frustrated because people will cancel things based on the weather report before they even know what it's going to be.

And then it turns out, you know, I had a situation a couple years ago where I was planning an outdoor summer pool party with a big group of people. And somebody had texted the group, oh, it looks like it's going to rain. We should change the date. And we went back and forth and back and forth. And finally I just said, all right, let's change the date. But what do you know? I woke up that morning. The sun was shining.

It was beautiful. And I texted everyone. And I said, well, I'm up for it if you all are. And for the most part, everyone showed up. A couple of people had already made alternative plans. But, you know, you think about that. And it's like, why are we, we're so preemptive to listen to something outside of ourselves? It is interesting.

So I have another question that I want to ask. You know, I just was thinking about this as we were talking. I'm wondering if maybe social media, I know that the environment may play a factor, but as someone who's a professional in this, it seems to me that like girls as young as four are beginning to get like, not four, I'm sorry,

girls in the fourth grade are like beginning to get their period. And it just seems like, is that a function? Do you think that social media on some level, the way it changes, the way kids are developing, maybe the dopamine, maybe the change in their brain? Do you think there might be some sort of ties to a woman developing earlier at that age, like in fourth grade? that could be applied to the whole social media thing?

I think, well, I think actually I talk a little bit about overall physical development and health related to the food. Yeah. Because, you know, our food is so highly processed. There's a lot of hormone disruptors in it. And so I think that's what's causing young girls to get their periods younger and younger. But to your point, I think coupled with, so you've got the. food and the technology. If you add social media into that, then their brains are growing faster

than they should, right? Because they know more about older adult things than they should, and their maturity gets a little bit muffled, actually a lot muffled, because they know things, but emotionally, they're still young. And, you know, fourth grade is a real important age because at nine, the child goes through a big social emotional development, where they become conscious of themselves as individuals outside of their family. Prior to nine, the family is the center of the child's universe. And so what happens then is they have one foot in early childhood and one foot in adolescence, and it's a very tumultuous, can be a very emotional time. So yes, if they're being exposed to social media and their maturity is, you know, they're learning.

more about adult things, then that really enhances the confusion of the nine-year change. So the food, the screens, and the parenting are all changing the development and affecting essentially the terrain of the child. It's amazing to think about the different wheels of complexity, alternating at different rates that are causing the machine. or you know what I want to apologize I should not use a mechanistic machine for a human being I'm sorry everybody I shouldn't do that it's horrible so long story longer you know as we stay around the nine age or we think about kids in grades when COVID came there was this incredible transition where people

were learning online and I know that I had a younger daughter at that time and it was very interesting to get to see a teacher with great intentions and who was a great person trying to give the class online to kids as young as second graders. Is there any data on how that may have affected kids or are we still kind of sorting through that? Or what, maybe what's your opinion on that learning, distance learning for children? Yeah. I think the data is out and I don't have like a study to refer to.

But I do know that overall we have learned that it did not do the kids very well. they're all still affected by it because the lack of in-person interaction, social-emotional learning at every age, at every developmental stage, really put them behind. So there was absolutely learning loss. Lots of teachers have reported that and still are reporting that. But there was also, I see in my practice, a loss of that social emotional development. An example of this is last year and this year, I had gotten more calls from parents of kids in the first grade and now a second grade. So last year's first graders, this year's second graders, for social issues at recess.

And I put the pieces together and realized it's because those kids were in preschool during the lockdowns. And preschool is exactly the time that we should be doing social, emotional learning. And so what was happening on the playground with first and second graders is stuff that they should have learned back in preschool and they didn't. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it's mind-blowing to think about the verbal, not only the verbal cues, but like the facial cues, like the felt presence of the other that is really, you know, part of the substance of understanding relationships in some ways. Absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, call it what it is, but when the kids were coming back into the buildings and everybody was masked up, I was not okay with that because I think kids need to see facial expression and body language. And they need to be able to interact in that way, especially young kids, especially young kids developing their speech. They need to see the mouth moving and, you know, see all of that. That's so important. Yeah, I mean, most of us can think back to a stern look we got from our teacher that meant to be quiet, you know, and if you don't have that for a while, especially in those formative years, if you start missing these, you know, if you miss the stern look from an angry person, you may miss the beautiful, sly smile of a loved one, you know, and it's like, these are precious moments that allow us to understand how to proceed in relationships or when we're treading on thin ice or when we're maybe making the mark or it's in a relationship. to think about language and communication on that level and how it can definitely affect us. Absolutely, yeah. Well, given your specialization, what advice do you offer parents to navigate the complexities of

raising children in an era that's dominated by technology? This is always a tricky one, right? Because it's so unique to the family and the situation. I can say all day long, listen, I don't think any kid should have a smart device until they're 14. And really, I mean, ideally 18, but nowadays I tend to say if somebody really wants an age, I say 14. Well, that's not realistic, I think, in some families that have already opened up Pandora's box, right? So if that's the case of, you know, you don't have little ones where you can maybe just delay usage as much as possible, I think it's all about connection. So however you can get a connection with your child, that's how you navigate the screens.

So what that means is, can you as a family agree to have family dinner time screen free where everyone is talking and sharing their day and giving eye contact and connecting on that level? Can you as a family agree to cut off technology at a certain time of the night? You know, there's all these sort of rituals and practices that a family with technology really needs to participate in and be aware of. And again, different for every family. but essentially it's all about the connection. Yeah, I like that.

It's a harkens back to the idea of communication we were talking about and those facial cues and understanding. Another one we tell our daughter too is that we do those things. We definitely have dinner and we have cutoff times. We have like limits for screen time with a phone to shut off and you can't use it. But I think something else that people could do that may help is what we do is if you're going to use it. I prefer that you create something instead of consume something. At least that way you're interacting on a level that is not consumptive.

And I think that you are not, while you still could be getting dopamine by creating, either making your own video or creating a voice memo or making art, at least that way, the stimulus reward is somewhat on a better path than just being full stimulation and passive right there. I like that. Yeah, I like that a lot. I've noticed that since I've really been talking about this and putting myself out there more online, that it has a different feel than just being on a device all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. Because I'm creating and I'm sort of sharing something that I think is big and important. So I like that way of showing the kids that, you know, this stuff could be good if you use it the right way. Right. But, you know, when it came on the scene, we gave kids unfettered access thinking it's fine and it's just frankly been damaging. Yeah. Yeah. It would be interesting to work with, maybe do like a class on something where, you know, instead of, instead of, and we could change the language instead of like consuming social media.

It could be co-creating with social media. Now that might steer people in the right direction. And I love what you said about creation because that brings up a whole avenue of things for kids to explore. Oh, you're creating this thing. So you're working with this tool to create it. And then that way it gives you more of the authority to have over it. Instead of it controlling you, you control it. And I think if you begin to lay that foundation down, it might be hopeful in some ways.

I'll have to revisit that. It sounds pretty interesting, though. Yeah, absolutely. Which is why I like the idea of delayed usage because the older the kid is, the more mature. and able they are to hear that message, you know, and to learn how to have a balance because, yes, the reality is is that they're going to grow up and they're going to have this stuff in their lives. And it's important for us parents to teach them how to be appropriate with it. And the older they are and the more mature they are, the more they're going to be able to

hear that message without getting too excited with it and overdoing it. Yeah, I agree. It's well said. In your opinion, how has the increased use of digital devices influence the dynamics of family relationships and what strategy do you recommend for maintaining healthy connections? I think it certainly disconnected us. I have heard parent after parent after parents say, you know, the day I got the game system or the day I gave them the smartphone was the day that, you know, we stopped being close. It really literally just is in the way of human interaction, even just physically. We can all look around. You know, I often will sit in a waiting room with my kids, whether it's a doctor's appointment or something like that. And I intentionally don't

have my phone. And they often don't want to talk to me, right? Because there's other people around and they're uncomfortable with that. But I'll just sit with them in silence while I watch everybody else scroll on their phone, parents and kids. And when you see it, it's almost like you're the sober person in the room and everyone else is drunk, you know? Yeah. When you see it, it's so clear how disconnecting it is. I mean, literally all of your attention and focus in your energy is in this device and not in the outside world.

So, so yeah, how it's affected families, it's disconnecting. And then because it's disconnecting, it prevents from conflict resolution and, you know, talking things out and learning how to communicate. and even just basic things like families who don't even talk about their weekly schedule, you know, and then the day comes and everybody's all hurried and doesn't know where they're going and doesn't know the schedule and then fighting about everything. So how I recommend staying connected is by being intentional about your time and how you're spending it.

I have a teenage son myself and I will often, if I know, notice that he's been on his phone too much, I will often just sit him down and say, listen, your phone is a relationship. The time you're putting into your phone is a relationship. And we, your family, are also a relationship. So what is the most important relationship to you? Your relationship to your device or your relationship to your family. And I don't tell him what the answer is.

I think that answer is obvious. and he knows it because he appreciates time with us. So that will help him be aware and think about how he's spending his time and what that means for him. And he has made some really good choices about technology when I put it to him that way. Instead of what most parents do, and I've been guilty of this, you're on your phone too much, put it down. You know, that's just them hearing.

a demand from you and they're going to reject it. So to put it to them in that way of like, this is a relationship, you really have to think about that. What are you, what are you choosing when you spend so much time on your device? That's really well put. I like that. I'm going to incorporate that into my strategy. I like that. It works because I have a very hard-headed, stubborn, strong-willed, powerful child. Which I think is great. Right. You know, I love that about him. And I think he's going to, it's going to make for a great adult, but it's hard to parent. And so I've had to learn. He's taught me that I have to present things in that way. Yeah, it's interesting how being a parent on some level makes you a student, you know, maybe more so than when you were a student. Absolutely. Yeah. Now I know why. When I first started doing this work, parents, you know, would ask me, you look really young. Do you have kids of your own? And I didn't, and they didn't like that very much.

And now I know why, you know, because it's made me a better therapist. It's made me a better parent coach. And certainly, you know, him teaching me has made me a better parent. The most frustrating thing is when I see my daughter do something that I do. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's what I do. Oh, that's what I look like right there. I got to change that. Oh, I got to change that, yeah.

It's like looking in the mirror. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My daughter has a really good, she's perfected her eye roll, and that's hands down because of me. I'm a good eye roller. Right. Right.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about that. And then you started thinking, okay, this got me in trouble these 25 times. If I don't fix that, they're going to get in trouble those 25 times, maybe more. And then that really leads to this idea of, you know, you can tell your kids something until you're blue in the face. but if you act upon it the opposite way, that's the lesson you're teaching them. And that can be very difficult for parents. Like maybe something recently that happened with me

is that I was at a job that I've done it for 26 years. I was dying in there. Like literally I couldn't do it. So much misplaced anger. And I was always telling my daughter, look, you have to live for yourself and do the right thing. But I would go do this job that I hated all the time. You know, and it was like, okay,

I got to this point where I'm like, I have to not do this. Otherwise, my daughter is going to do it. But I guess the point is, if you can come to the realization that your actions as a parent speak louder than your words, it can be the catalyst for you to make profound changes in your life. A hundred percent. That is so true. And how powerful is that? Yeah.

I don't know if there's words for it. No. No. It's everything, isn't it? Yeah. It's mesmerizing to me. What about, can you maybe discuss some successful interventions or, you? or strategies you've employed to address the mental health challenges specific to the

eye generation in your clinical work. Yeah. So what I've done actually is completely shift from doing psychotherapy with children to coaching parents. And what a profound change that has made on the children. Because what I was learning was that pathologizing the child, putting the problem on the child for an overall macrocultural problem was making it worse. And then I applied that to our mental health system and how our ERs are overloaded with children in

mental health cases. They're not equipped to deal with them. There's nowhere for these kids to go. There's not enough facilities. There's not enough therapists. And I thought, we are, we really are approaching this the wrong way because, putting the onus on the child. Now, I'm all about personal responsibility. So what I mean by putting the onus on them is putting a diagnosis on them and scapegoating that they're the problem.

They're the ones with the illness. It's just hands down making everything worse because it's making them feel like victims. Instead of having the parents model that we can own the changes we need to make, like you just said, you know, how powerful is that? And neither one of us really followed anything up with that because we realized just that is enough. So if you put the power in the hands of the parents to make the changes, then that gives the children the power to feel like they can make the necessary changes in their lives and they're not victims. And then we don't see mental health issues. We don't see anxiety. We don't see panic disorder.

We don't see ODD. I'm sorry, OCD. There's so much of that right now. And so I often don't really need to meet with the parents much. My marketing experts are telling me I need to offer coaching packages, you know, for six months. And I'm really trying to figure that out because the parents don't need six months. They really only need a couple sessions, you know, to hear, hey, this change needs to be made, this change needs to be made. And they're good to go.

And the families are thriving. You know, I've spoken to multiple people about generational trauma, but I've never, I want to say thank you. I've never had that particular lens on it, but it makes total sense. Like, that's what we do. And that's probably what our parents did to us. And all of a sudden you realize it's not the child that's panicking. It's the parents. They're scared.

They're fearful. They don't know how to move through the world because they were never taught. And so, of course, they're going to push it off on their kid. It must be the kid's fault. Or I just can't deal with this right now. So, wow, I never, when did you, when was it that you came upon that realization? I would say during the lockdowns because, well, I'm in Michigan, and we were locked down more than any other state. I think it was like Michigan, California, New York.

We were all kind of neck-and-neck with how long we were locked down. And, you know, just my community and the mental health of everybody around me was just deteriorating. And I started to really look at, well, first of all, I had, I actually ended up with, with like physical, adrenal fatigue issues because I was working so much because there was so much need. And so it really made me take stock and how can I continue to do this work? Because this work is, I've known I wanted to do it since I was 10 years old. You know, I wasn't walking away from the work. There was no way. And so I had to ask myself, what, how do, how can I continue to do this sustainably? And, and I knew I had to change my methods because they just, they literally

weren't working. So I had to put my ego aside and ask myself, like, what really needs to happen? And this whole time I've done this work, I've known that it's the parents that need the help. But the problem with psychotherapy with children is for the child's your client. So first you have to build the rapport with the child to then get them to trust you to then meet with their parents. So they don't feel like you're talking about them behind their back to their parents. Then I have to work to gain the rapport of the parents, for them to trust me, for me to tell them, hey, essentially, you're making some mistakes. You need to make some changes, right?

Well, that takes at least a year. That whole process I'm describing takes at least a year. So what I was finding is, is if people had the tolerance to stay with me long enough, maybe they got better, but it took about two to three years. If most of them didn't have the tolerance to stay with that process, so they would just walk away and leave, and I was left feeling like I failed them. And that was unacceptable to me because this work is so important. And so I really had to ask myself, how can I get these people better faster?

How can I get these kids better faster? And I realized I had to go right to the parents, hands down right to the parents. So in the first phone call, I still get phone calls for therapy because I'm working on, I'm just getting started marketing myself as a parent coach and I'm speaking and writing. So I still get the psychotherapy calls. But within the first call, I say, listen, I'm. And I'm not open. My practice isn't open to psychotherapy anymore.

I will do this and I will meet with you. And I explain the whole process. And if they agree to it, if they show up and sit across from me, then they see how fast things can get better. And so, yeah, it's definitely been a process. But for me, the lockdowns were a huge wake-up call. Yeah, I think it was a, while tragic in a lot of ways, I think it was a wake-up call for a lot of people to question who they are, what they're doing, why they're doing it, is it working? You know, how much money do you need?

And it's interesting to think about all the quick, you know, the rapid realization that happened there, whether it was magic or tragic for some people. I think it changed a lot of people's lives. And it's interesting to think. In your clinical practice, what trends have you observed regarding the impact of social media and self-esteem and social interactions of adolescents?

Yeah. You know, I think, so when I was a teenager, it was Teen magazine and Vogue and 17 magazine and all the models were airbrushed and we all knew it, but we all sort of wanted to look like them and felt bad about ourselves for not. But so that was damaging enough, right, for girls. But, but that was, we all knew they were supermodels. right so so like we all knew that okay well I'm only five feet tall so I'm I'm never going to be a supermodel and I could accept that and I could choose you know eventually I did I told my mom to stop subscribing to the magazines because I knew it was damaging me so much so it was pretty easy you could cancel your subscription and maybe you'd see it on the shelf at the grocery store but it's not going to be in your

face every day so social media is so much more damage than that because we can filter ourselves. So if your girlfriend posts a picture of herself that makes her look like a supermodel, then even though you know there's probably filters on that, you then have to, you look at yourself because that's your friend and you, you know, you can relate more to her. She's not a supermodel and she looks like that. So then it becomes this pressure to constantly be taking pictures.

of yourself and filtering them and getting them to be just right and perfect. And it really essentially can become an obsession. I've seen girls who really don't do much to their appearance in like in the real world. You know, they'll show up to school all disheveled or they'll show up to work all disheveled. But then when they're going on social media, they'll get themselves all delved up because that's real to them. Whereas this, this real world stuff, like what's real to you and me isn't real to them. What an interesting phenomenon to model reality. What happens when your online life is more real than your other life?

It was strange, right? Yeah, it's very strange. And really what happens is you become depressed in your real life because you don't know how to cope or deal with them. anything. And that's what we're seeing. There's a direct correlation. Thanks to Gene Twang, we now have research where there's a correlation between social media and depression and suicidal outcomes. And what she found is that the suicide rate in both boys and girls has increased since social media came on the scene. Now, I think overall girls are being more affected by it,

but it certainly is affecting boys as well. And on the end of boys, it's the relationships, you know, the male-female relationships are getting very toxic. And so boys are engaging in these really unhealthy relationships with girls and don't know how to cope and are often suicidal because of it. Yeah, that seems like that may go all the way back to the beginning of our discussion. Like when you don't learn relationships in kindergarten, being rough and tumble or being playing with blocks, blocks is a great metaphor.

If you don't learn to play with blocks as a kid, how can you build anything later, especially a relationship. Especially if you had like horn on one side and these filters on the other side, it's just this giant abstraction. And then you get together, you're like, this is not what it looks like on TV. You know, it's it's kind of heartbreaking. It is. It's become a perfect storm. You know, so when I first, like I said, about 10 years ago, I first noticed all this stuff with the kids. I immediately, I blamed the technology.

I'm like, oh, it's just the technology. There's just the technology. And then over time, I've come to this conclusion that it's a perfect storm. It's the parents that don't give the kids the tools and the disappointment earlier on and the hardships earlier on. If your three-year-old isn't tying their shoes, then by the time they're 16 and thinking about driving, they're not going to want to drive because they didn't go through building their tolerance for difficult developmental milestones. So that, coupled with the technology, has created this storm of really a lack of just being able to cope. And that's why the kids are overall

not all right. You think on some level, the same way you were able to look at 17 magazine, like, you know what, this is ridiculous, no more. Do you think that that, that, sort of, you know, can become something that happens to society. It seems like when something becomes flooded, then we build a resistance to it. Do you think that that can happen? Absolutely, I think. It already is happening a little bit. We have little packets of kids choosing not to be on social media.

I know there's a friend of mine in my community whose daughter, whose teenage daughter and her friends have all made a pact not to be on it. there is a girl in New York who started a club called the Luddite Club. Yeah, I like it already. Yeah. And, you know, they're just a bunch of kids that get together and they do in-person activities without devices. And it actually made national news. So, yeah, absolutely.

I think that can happen. You know, I always say, unfortunately, people have to experience pain before they make a change. and I hate that we've had to see our kids go through so much pain. But yeah, I think the pendulum has to go in the other direction at some point. Yeah, it's interesting to see, you know, on some level, this birth of social media, the birth of the relationship between social media and dopamine and this sort of interesting paradigm. You could see the kids coming up that were affected by it, maybe getting the reins of power. and those are the people that maybe start to put the brakes on a little bit like,

this was horrible. We got to change this. You know, it seems to be a correcting, hopefully a correcting sort of wave that comes up and changes that. Yeah. Have you, are you aware of any studies or have you seen maybe through your experience, like is the divorce? And I know there's a lot of moving parts here,

but I'm wondering what the success of relationships are with the explosion of technology versus not having technology. Yeah. I don't know the data on that, but I certainly know that, you know, in my practice alone, I hear a couple's. So when I coach the parents, inevitably, you know, stuff about the two of them comes up. And often couples will point the finger at the other one. Have you heard this? She uses your phone too much.

No, you use your phone too much. So absolutely couples are affected by this. And I think most of us aren't even aware of how much we're on our devices. So oftentimes, you know, the other person in the coupleship will have to point it out. Like, hey, you know what? You're on your phone too much. And there's also that image going around. I don't know if you've seen it, but where it's the two couples in bed and they're facing the other way.

And it looks like there's a device in their hand, but there isn't one. I haven't seen that. No. I'll look for it, though. It's very powerful because they're staring, you know, at their hand like this, but there's no device in it. and they're turned opposite ways. So essentially, you know, they're separate for no reason. I said, yeah, looking forward to seeing.

That is a powerful picture. It speaks volumes of our attitude towards things that get in between us. You know, it used to be, sometimes you didn't even need a phone. You just needed a bad idea or, or, I don't know, it's mind-blowing. I can't wait to investigate it a little bit more. How is your background in studying women's issues influence your perspective on the role of technology and shaping gender identity and expectations among children?

I think that, you know, women are the fabric of the family. They're the center of the family. And I think overall moms feel very overwhelmed, very burnt out. They feel the burden of, you know, work, balancing work, in home life. And I often see moms sort of checking out and giving up because they feel like they're failing. Their families aren't intact. Things aren't well. Their kids aren't well. And they feel desperate. They don't know what to do. And I think they're often, you know, there's a modality now to check out in that social media. And I think overall they're on social

media. You know, it's why I think there's so much, now there's really a huge community around helping parents, helping moms. You know, there's parenting books, there's podcasts. I think moms are feeling like they really need a lot of help. Yeah, I'm hopeful that we can begin to change that because without mom at home or without a woman having a strong sense of how powerful and important she is, the family disintegrates. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And I don't think moms are feeling successful being the emotional center because their kids are, everyone's disconnected, and they don't feel like they have a lot of power over that. Yeah, we've spoken a little bit about filters on people, on young men or young women and how that can change the perception of what

someone looks like, but there's a similar filter on social media about what success looks like. And it's just this unrealistic expectation of, you know, I don't know anybody that has that, but here they are. They got perfectly white teeth and they have those fake body. Like they're just so fake. Sometimes I see it on the TV, like, that's, that looks like the Barbie movie to me. Oh, yeah. You're watching something like, that's totally the Barbie movie.

But it's, it's not. I'm like, it's so hard to like, even for me, I'm like, is that even real? I don't even know that's a real thing. That's right. Yeah, you don't know. You don't know what's real. But, you know, the thing with moms is that we're just more and more isolated from each other. You know, there used to be a time where moms raised the children together. There was a community. There was a connection. And now it's the mom wars, right? Do you work? Do you stay home? Do you breastfeed? Do you formula feed? And everyone's, you know, criticizing each other and everyone's wrong no matter what they do. And so, so yeah, of course mom feels isolated. alone like she's failing all the time because there's no sense of community around motherhood anymore. Yeah, I had this experience a few years ago. My husband and I joke, we have this cookbook and we love it.

And the recipes are really beautiful and they're really good. But the maker of the cookbook will say, recipe takes 20 minutes when really it's two hours. So we'll always say, you know, he'll say, oh, I think we need to have that. Crystal recipe this week and I'll say, do you have two hours to be in the kitchen? Because I don't. And so I made this Heather Crystal recipe one day and it was beautiful. But the whole time, and this was my kids were little, they were younger. And the whole time I was stressed out because my daughter was crying and wanted my attention. And, you know, I was trying to finish this meal and you have to get everything, you have to time everything right. And so I finished it. I, you know,

put it on a plate and I thought to myself, if I were on social media, I would take a picture of this, I would post it and it would look like I am the world's greatest mother and that I have it all together when really putting this together like nearly killed me and sent me into a nervous breakdown. And so there it is right there. You know, you see what you see is a facade. It's not, it's not real and you don't know what's behind that. You don't know what kind of stress it took for that mom to dress her kids all perfectly and get them all to look at the camera and smile. You know, I've seen a sort of a shift that's been happening where people are building online

and they're beginning to show more vulnerability. Like, I've seen some videos where people are showing like, this is my life. And you look at it, you're like, oh, my gosh. But then you realize that's your life too. Do you think that maybe a shift in that kind of content of people being honest about, like, this is what's really happening in my life? That could make a change in the way people perceive themselves and the culture? I think somewhat.

I think I caution people into going too far into the other direction, right, where they're, like, looking for support. Because that's what I've seen a lot of that, where you pose something that's really emotional and vulnerable. And then, you know, you don't get the support you need. And so you feel even more raw and vulnerable because you put something out there and you didn't get what you needed. Yeah, or maybe even you start getting dopamine for posting content that's sad. You know what I mean? Then you go, now you train your brain to dopamine from being that way.

That could be probably a disaster too. Exactly. And then you get attention for being sad. And then it increases your need and your want to keep posting things like that. So I just think really what it comes down to is human connection in the real world. because you're going to be more authentic and real and you're going to be able to express and communicate a bad day and you're going to be able to celebrate a good day

and you can go through the ups and downs kind of more in a natural normal way. Yeah, that's great advice. Well, we're kind of coming up on the top of the hour, I know you've been gracious with your time, but maybe before we go, you could just give us sort of some closing thoughts on what are some real things that people could begin today

that may help them with their working with their children and technology. So I would suggest starting, just bringing awareness more to your body. I think we are so out of our bodies most of the time. We're in our minds. We're spinning or over-analyzing. So I think people need to sort of not from the top down, you know, because we always think of it like it's a top-down. It's really more from the bottom up.

So ground your feet. Take your shoes off, put them in the grass. I mean, you're in Hawaii. You can do that any time of year. I can't do that right now, but I can certainly be barefoot in my house on the wood floor, you know, some kind of, you know, earth grounding. And anyone can do that anywhere, anytime. And just start there.

Start with just being in your body because once you're in your body, we're sensing beings, we're energetic beings. So when we can sense and we can feel ourselves, then we have access to other people. And then making choices around technology really almost becomes pretty easy because we can sense that we need time without it. And then we can sense that the people around us need us to be connected so they can connect as well. Yeah, I like that. That's great advice to begin doing it. It's something people can do today.

You know, and you can get in that right frame of mind to help you becoming aware. Once you have awareness, then you can begin to take the necessary steps to change things. It's wonderful. Nicole, this is what happens. Time goes by like that when I start talking to really interesting people. It's like, boom, ow, we're gone. That's how I feel, too. I know.

That's a great conversation. And I can't believe we're already done. I know. I know. You have to come back because I think we just scratch the surface of it. And I think it's something that a lot of us, especially the demographics of Xers and, you know, probably even some of the older generation and even the younger generation that are finding themselves wrapped up in this relationship are struggling with. And I think it's sometimes it's our

struggles and it's the things that might even be traumatic about our lives that bring us together. So I love having these conversations because I think it's things we can rally around and we can work together to solve. So before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Sure. Yep. I am on Instagram at I generation mental health. I'm also on Facebook under that same handle. As you know, I'm on LinkedIn, Nicole Runyon. And I do have a website, Nicole Runyon.com. It is in the middle of being transitioned from being a psychotherapist to more speaking and coaching.

So really what I'm up to now is doing more speaking events where I talk to parents to larger audiences of parents and sort of education. them and help them understand what's happening with their kids and what they can do to help assist them and support them. Well, fantastic. I love it. And I love the shifting of focus to the parents and still working with children, but shifting the focus to parents. I think that's beautiful. I'm looking forward to learning more about it. But hang on briefly afterwards, I'll talk to you just shortly afterwards. But to everybody who got to hang out with us today, I really appreciate your time. Hope you having a beautiful day. And that's all we got for today. We'll be back tomorrow. Aloha.