TrueLife - Oli Gen-Bash - The Fungal Insurgency

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️Oli Genn-BashAloha and welcome to a conversation that promises to weave together threads of science, philosophy, and the profound mystery of nature. Today, we’re joined by Oli Gen-Bash—a pioneer in the intersection of human consciousness and the enigmatic world of fungi and plants. With a deep-rooted passion for psychedelic exploration, Oli has not only spoken at groundbreaking events like Breaking Convention and Product Earth, but also cultivated a community of curiosity and collaboration as the Founder of The Fungi Consultant and Head of Mycology at Product Earth.A politics postgraduate with a focus on philosophy, mysticism, and critical thinking, Oli approaches the complexities of human experience with the precision of an analyst and the creativity of a musician. As the co-founder of the University of Kent Canterbury Psychedelics Society—now the longest-running student psychedelic society in the UK—he has helped catalyze a movement of open inquiry and connection, even hosting the inaugural Breaking Convention conference in 2011.Oli’s fascination with mycelium is no mere metaphor; he embodies its principles of interconnection and resource-sharing, bridging diverse perspectives to inspire collaboration and empowerment. Whether he’s exploring the symbiotic relationship between humans and nature, or harmonizing the realms of politics and mysticism, Oli brings a rare blend of analytical rigor and creative innovation to every endeavor.Prepare yourself for a dialogue that traverses the fertile ground where nature, philosophy, and consciousness converge. Let’s dive into the mycelial network of ideas with Oli Gen-Bash.https://thefungiconsultant.com/http://linkedin.com/in/oli-genn-bashQuestions Mystical Connections & Philosophy 1. Mycelium networks connect and sustain ecosystems, almost like a neural network of the Earth. Do you think humans are meant to emulate this kind of decentralized intelligence in our societies, and what would it take to achieve that level of symbiosis? 2. Mysticism often seeks to dissolve the boundary between self and other. How does your exploration of psychedelics and fungi inform your understanding of individual identity versus collective consciousness? 3. If fungi represent the bridge between life and decay, what do they teach us about the cyclical nature of power, politics, and human institutions? 4. Can the philosophy of mycology—adaptation, interdependence, and mutual exchange—be applied as a blueprint for rethinking global political systems?Psychedelics & Critical Thought 5. In a world increasingly dominated by reductionist thinking, how can the experience of altered states through psychedelics help reintegrate holistic and interconnected perspectives into mainstream thought? 6. As an amateur mycologist and philosopher, what role do you think fungi and psychedelics play in unlocking layers of human cognition that remain inaccessible through conventional methods? 7. Psychedelics are often framed as tools for healing, but could they also serve as catalysts for new forms of governance, ethics, or even human evolution? What might that look like? 8. You’ve spoken about the power of diverse perspectives. How do psychedelic states challenge the limits of analytical thought, and how do they reshape our understanding of logic and reason?Music, Creativity, and Collaboration 9. As a musician, how do you see the rhythms and harmonics of fungal growth reflected in the process of making music, and what can this teach us about the act of creation itself? 10. The act of collaboration mirrors the network-like structure of mycelium. How do you think this principle can be applied in creative spaces, and what have been your most profound moments of collaborative synergy? 11. Music often has the ability to evoke altered states of consciousness. How do you see the interplay between sound, psychedelics, and the mycological world contributing to future innovations in art and healing?Politics, Mysticism, and the Human Condition 12. You have a deep interest in politics and mysticism—fields often seen as opposites. How do you reconcile the mystical, which transcends systems, with the political, which seeks to build and govern them? 13. Fungi thrive in the margins, turning waste into life. What lessons can marginal or subcultural movements teach mainstream society about resilience, adaptability, and flourishing in adversity? 14. Much like mycelium, which operates invisibly yet powerfully, are there unseen forces in human systems—whether cultural, political, or spiritual—that we need to better understand to address global crises? 15. How do you approach the paradox of critical thinking—deconstructing flawed systems—while maintaining the mystic’s embrace of ambiguity and the unknown?Humanity, Psychedelics, and the Future 16. Fungi have existed for over a billion years, outliving countless species and ecosystems. What do you think humanity must learn from their evolutionary story to secure its own survival? 17. If mycelium were to teach a philosophy course for humans, what would be its core principles and how should we integrate them into modern life? 18. As someone who bridges philosophy, science, and mysticism, what do you envision as the next great paradigm shift in how humans relate to plants, fungi, and the natural world? 19. Imagine a future in which humanity fully integrates the wisdom of fungi and psychedelics into its institutions. How do you think our understanding of identity, economy, and spirituality would transform? 20. In your work, have you ever encountered a moment or discovery that felt like a direct conversation with nature itself? If so, what did it reveal about the relationship between the seen and unseen in our universe? One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYP...

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen

Welcome back to the True Live podcast I hope everybody's having a beautiful day I hope the sun is shining, hope the birds are singing, hope the wind is at your back. Got a great show for alien and just different all-around original thinkers. So Aloha, and welcome to a conversation that promises to weave together threads of science, philosophy, and a profound mystery of nature. Today, we're joined by Ollie Jen Bash, a pioneer in the intersection of human consciousness and the enigmatic world of fungi and plants,

With a deep root passion for psychedelic exploration, Oli has not only spoken at groundbreaking events like breaking convention and product earth, but also cultivated a community of curiosity and collaboration as the founder of the fungi consultant and head of mycology at product earth, a politics postgraduate with the focus on philosophy, mysticism, and critical thinking, Oli approaches the complexities of human experience with the precision of an analyst and the creativity of a musician as the co-founder of the University of Kent Canterbury's psychedelic society, now the longest running student psychedelic society in the UK, he has helped

catalyse a movement of open inquiry and connection, even hosting the inaugural Breaking Convention Conference in 2011. Ollie's fascination with mycelium is no mere metaphor. He embodies its principles of interconnection and resource sharing, bridging diverse perspectives to inspire collaboration and empowerment, whether he's exploring the symbiotic relationship between humans and nature or harmonizing the realms of politics and mysticism. Ollie brings a rare blend of analytical rigor and creative innovation to every endeavor. And I'm so stoked you're here. Ollie, how are you today?

I'm good. Thank you, George. That's a great introduction. Thank you so much for that. Yeah, I'm doing great. It's the end of the day nearly in the UK, but the sun has been shining, which is a rarity, especially at this time of the year. So it's been great.

Yeah. How are you? I'm doing great, man. It's such an interesting. dressing time to be alive. Like I really feel like we're on the cause of changing here. And with the revolution, whether it's psychedelics or just relationships seem to be changing in everyone's lives so fast these days, you know. I'm just seeing so much of it. I'm like, what comes to you?

I'm kind of throw that out there. Sorry, say that again. You broke up with just a little bit there when you asked that question. We're having a little technical there. I lost you there for a minute, Holly. I'm sorry. Yeah. That's so. Okay. Just what was what was the question you asked at the end? There we go. So the question is with so much change, so much change going on right now, what are, what are some things that you have been speaking about recently that are at the top of your mind? Yeah, I mean, it is a really fascinating time, particularly with the way in which people are engaging with psychedelics. the way in which people are talking about psychedelics as this healing modality,

which of course they are. It's undeniable the importance of psychedelics being looked at in this way. But what's on my mind at the moment is what seems to be a loss of the psychedelic counterculture, the stuff that for me personally got me really interested in psychedelics, the music, the art, the philosophy, the spiritual, that tends to feel like a bit of an afterthought at the moment. And I understand where society is moving. We're moving in this, I guess you could call it an accelerationist place where we want to figure everything out. And, you know, I'm certainly that way when it comes to things

like functional mushrooms. I want to know what they're doing for us. But I think with psychedelics, it's all quite, it's all still quite new. I guess in terms of the resurgence, it's still quite new. And I wonder if there's a bit of energy that's rushing ahead because we're in this accelerationist mindset. And people often talk in ways where it's axiomatic. We must do this. We have to do this.

Because of this problem, we have to further. for psychedelic therapy and everyone just says yes and you know overwhelmingly everyone is in support of that and then I find myself being a little bit hesitant and uneasy I don't know if it's sort of you could call it neurodivergent thinking but there's something there which wants me to just rain things back a little bit and and still stay in touch with the threads of that psychedelic counterculture that doesn't necessarily rush ahead in trying to, like, fix ourselves. There's certainly a lot of that from the 60s and 70s about changing the world and the social change. But I think that's quite different to, hey, we've got a mental health problem and we have something,

we have the solution, we're going to fix it. I don't know if it's necessarily that straightforward. it's brilliant and i agree with so much of what you're saying you know when i i kind of feel on some level people are really worried about the implications of an anti-war movement people are really worried about a subculture breaking out and ruining it for everybody else whoever everybody else is And I'll just define everybody else as like the medical container, the therapy container, sort of the old guard that saw things happen last time. And we're like, listen, man, we can't have people out there saying to put this in the water. It's a horrible idea.

You know, they're afraid of this sort of same thing happening. But the positive thing I think about that, Ollie, like that is the point which forces those radical shifts to happen. As soon as someone's like, you can't do that. Watch out. because I think it starts bringing people to the forefront. Like, this is ridiculous. Like, who cares about the medical container? We've been talking about that for like the last two years.

Like, what about all these other? What about everybody else? What about optimization? What about education? What about finding new ways to develop the soul in ways that makes everyone brighter, man? I see it on the cusp, man. Do you think that maybe this little ground swell that we're seeing? I know that you have been talking a lot about is on the way?

Like, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting point about the medical container that we've had it for a while. And that is important. You know, I'm not here denying the medical benefits and the need to create that legitimacy. You know, with the psychedelic society at Kent University, it was very scientifically driven. It was at a time, you know, 2009, 2010. where we couldn't necessarily talk about this stuff as freely as we can now. So then we use that medical container.

And I don't mean use that in a kind of a negative way. But it was very useful. You know, we helped support the people that were doing research. We provided a platform for people to present their data. And in doing so, that helped to legitimize our use of psychedelics in a cultural sense. Not because we were going around and saying, hey, don't worry, you know, we're all out here fixing our trauma in the woods. It was more in the sense of, well, actually, I'm okay, you know, being out in the forest,

taking mushrooms because they are also being legitimized by scientists. And it felt like something of a complementary way. And I do believe it was. And now I guess it's kind of turned into that, you know, pharmaceutical. industrial complex where there always needs to be a solution for the ills that we've got and there's clever marketing and it's I mean it's gone totally bigger than I ever thought it could and that's important for people who have no engagement with psychedelics and I'm seeing interesting things happening in a cultural sense because I really appreciate what you're saying

I also see something slightly odd happening where there are certain figures within the psychedelic space who are rehashing this need for a cultural container and saying, hey, we need to shift away from the medical side of things and create this cultural container. And then me as a musician who, you know, my interest in psychedelics was through being raised on music in the 60s and 70s. you know, my dad is in his late 70s. I was raised on that music, which was very drug-fueled. And I was like, you know, I grew up watching videos of Jimmy Hendrix at Woodstock while he's tripping and like setting his guitar on fire. So for me, that was that direct line of, okay, you know, I want to experience what,

what this is all about. And that stuff really does exist still. There's a lineage of all that music that hasn't been broken. There's still that generation of people. they're still alive. You know, some of them are quite old, but they're still,

they're still going. A lot of them are still playing music into their 80s. So we don't necessarily need these things in this cultural container sense where it is, you know, creating a new way of thinking about things or creating something that hasn't necessarily been around before. You know,

it's like people talk about making sense of the world using psychedelics. And, you know, my way of thinking is that, hey, we already make sense of it because we have this connection in an artistic sense, in a creative sense, in a spiritual sense, that doesn't necessarily rely on someone telling us what to do. It's not this thing that we're waiting for. We have this eminent experience that we engage with. We have this. It's like a direct line to the divine, I think.

Yeah, I love it. A direct line to the divine. Like, it's such a beautiful way to put it. And I agree, too. You know, the antecedents of music and the cultural rebellion, like they'll never go away. They'll always be there. to inspire everyone.

It's so beautiful because I think it gives everyone a, it gives everyone sort of a fair opportunity to participate. You know, it, like maybe that's because we're the money is. Maybe the money right now is in the medical container. There are lots of people that are finding ways to, you know, with certification or testing, you know,

there's these ways in which I didn't, I'm not aware of in the last phase. You know, there's all these microdosing certifications and, you know, people learning these different things. And I'm not against. that. I think there's a place for all of that. But it does sort of muddy the waters when, you know, you're having huge amounts of people becoming like microdosing coaches. You know, I don't,

I'll probably get a lot of hate for that, but I don't, I don't know that you need to have a microdosing coach for like a long period of time. You know, maybe there's a place for everybody, but am I being too hard on, on the industry with coaching and certification? I mean, I don't know if you are. You bring up some really interesting points because, you know, it's like we, like, yes, but you know, it's difficult. There's seven billion people in the world, right? So there's like, there's always going to be something.

There's always going to be something for everything. And, you know, I have, I've spoken to my friend Robert 40, who is, you should definitely get him on your podcast. He's one of the unsung heroes, unsung heroes of the psychedelic space. And he actually taught Jim Faderman the microdosing protocols kind of in the 70s, right? So this stuff is is really useful, you know, taking these sub-perceptive doses, sub-psychedelic doses of psychedelic doses can be really useful for managing different mental health problems and also inspiring creativity, being able to help you engage in your relationships more. effectively, you know, I've personally had some really interesting experiences and some good benefit from microdosing. But yeah, the idea of a protocol, the idea of training to be a microdosing coach. And the thing is, this for me is the thing. And it does get into the place

of feeling like a gatekeeper. But there's something about it where I'm like, okay, everyone I know who's been in the space for a long time, you know, what I would call a head, who's been, you know, especially the people I speak to who have been part of the UK rave scene, people who are maybe, I would say, 15 to 20 years older than me. If I speak to them about these ideas of microdosing certification, there is a bit of eye-rolling because they had this community where they could, ask people, hey, how much should I do? Well, if you want to have this kind of experience, you can take a little bit or you can have this kind of experience where you take a bit more.

So, yeah, I don't know. I don't, the people I see becoming microdosing coaches haven't necessarily been in the space for a long time. And I think what gets me is when I see certain microdosing coaches who have big followings on social media, essentially, pontificating. And then, and they're saying interesting things. They're saying important stuff, but then if you try to engage with it, there's no response. There's no response with any of the comments. It's just like they're set up in this space where they're not, they're not necessarily doing anything too extreme. So they're not really going to be challenged. Everyone's kind of agreed, oh yeah, microdosing is good for you. Yeah, it helps depression. And then you go, yeah,

I'm going to train to be a microdosing. coach and everyone goes, brilliant. And then you can say stuff which to people who've been around for a while might seem quite obvious, but to people who are brand new to the space, who will be just dipping their toes in the water. And so microdosing is more appealing to the people who are new, they will be more marketable because you're like, oh, wow, you know, this thing that I've never heard of. And then if you come in and say, hey, you know, there's all this number of people,

this lineage of people that have been saying this stuff for a while, you kind of come across as being a bit sour. And, you know, I often think, God, maybe I should have moved to the US and trained to be a microdosing coach. And I would have had a more straightforward idea of what my career was going to be. But then it's like,

okay. What are we microdosing for? We microdosing to be better employees in a system that doesn't really serve us? You know, this idea of, yeah, you can microdose to essentially fit in. And what I understand really is that everything surrounding mental health, a lot of it is coming from the systems that we're in that don't really line up with where we are as humans. You know, our brains are still set to 200,000 years ago.

And then we've got all these concepts like having a job and having a podcast and being on a computer. And, you know, there's things which aren't necessarily lining up. And we've got to play catch up quite quickly. So then, okay, do we engage in this biohacking, you know, that has all these negative connotations? implies that you're essentially trying to get ahead of someone else. But actually, hey, I mean, someone like myself, I have a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. I do a lot of biohacking. Every day I'm taking something, something different, you know, different kinds of functional mushrooms, microdosing, cacti mushrooms, whatever. Anything that I find that can be a useful tool, brilliant. Let's

work with it. So yeah, but, you know, that for me, has an interesting balance to it because i don't just want to function i don't just want to fit in i want to be able to thrive in a way which is benefiting the soul so yeah i don't know i just i i worry that the uh yeah psychedelic renaissance has just become a bit um a bit lame to be to be like there's so much yeah what i mean you just think about the word renaissance you know like i don't or or it seems to me when cultures get in trouble they look back to a time when things were flourishing and i don't think that these small incremental steps of like okay um take this little tiny dose right here and you'll see colors a little bit brighter like i don't think

that that is what's going to cure the ailments that we need. But I do think that if you take, this is maybe irresponsible, but I'm going to say it, I think if you're, if you're functioning well and you want to get a big dose of what the fuck is wrong with you, you need a big dose of mushrooms. You need a big dose of psychedelics to really sit back. Maybe it's seven hours. Maybe it's eight hours of, you know, obviously you're going to be in a safe place, but you will figure out what the hell is going on, what you don't like, some things about you that you need to change. And a microdose is not going to do that. Like a microdose is going to be sort of like brave new world versus the island. You know what I

mean by that? Like it's in some ways, microdosing is like a dissociate. Like it's a little bit like a dissociate. If you take a little bit, you get a little disassociated. If you take a bigger dose, the scales are ripped off and you're like, oh shit, I got to fix some things. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting, you know, it's stuff that I've, I've spoken about a lot with people like this idea of the Huxley-Soma and, you know, maybe I am being impatient and this is like the hump that we're on before we, you know, this is like where the, I don't know what you call it, the stuff starts to happen that the soup needs to get churned up before we can actually get to that point where it's integrated and we can be a peaceful society because it all

feels like something's not quite right okay well hang on we've had this further access to psychedelic therapies and supposedly we're you know we're alleviating a lot of trauma from veterans but at the same time we're not alleviating the root causes of that trauma we're no one is apart from you and I mean we're genuinely talking a handful of people in the psychedelic space talking about anti-war and you know it gets to the point I speak to people who are a lot older than me you know people that are kind of twice my age and they say yeah you know I was anti-war in the 60s and 70s and yeah now I just kind of realized that as a bit idealist and I guess they're comfortable now you know my my dad was one of these people he's got a bit of a comfortable life now

and there is that thing, I guess, of people running out of steam. But to me, you know, these big doses of psychedelics that I've had and also a lot of bad trips, I think it's actually important. And I do think there are such things as bad trips and they are bad. And I won't say, well, they're bad and they taught me something, therefore they're good. I think categorically I've had bad, negative experiences and that's okay. And there is some use in that because that feeling of being sat in that negativity. I remember, I remember being on acid and it was like a really long trip.

We've taken quite a lot. And we were down in like the sort of basement of someone's house and they put on Forest Gump. And there was, you know, the scene in Forest Gump when they're in the Vietnam War and, you know, the sound of the guns like really shocked. me. I was really viscerally caught by that feeling of fucking hell, what are we doing? This is, this is absolutely bizarre. And then, you know, I come back not even to the quote unquote normy world, but just the psychedelic world. And it feels a bit like I'm in an insane asylum where I'm shouting, you know, come on guys. what are we doing? And meanwhile, everyone else, it's like they've had the soma. Everyone's got there.

And maybe it's because I'm not necessarily in as comfortable position as other people. You know, I haven't set up a retreat center. I'm not a qualified psychedelic integration coach. I'm not doing these things that you see this kind of life on Instagram where it's like the really easily accessible psychedelics. You know, for me, my engagement, psychedelics, it wasn't easy to access. You know, I remember pulling my hair route, you know, when I was like 21, one day when we thought we were going to get some acid and it just totally flopped and didn't happen and I was furious. And now it's like, you know, yeah, people can just go on a retreat. If you've got enough money, you can go and do these things. So it's almost like,

people talk about psychedelics as being a quick fix to that spiritual part, that journey. But actually, there's a lot involved in talking to people, in fostering that community, in being able to acquire the tools to get to that point. You actually need to be initiated. So I wonder if we've lost that with the easy access to the microdosing coach, is this kind of, yeah, brave new world type thing that I sort of want to deny, but I see it happening a lot where I more and more feel like the turd in the punch bowl events and conversations when I bring up stuff and the response that I get overwhelmingly is one of

like can you not can you not make this conversation uncomfortable please because we're trying to follow a particular narrative and we're all you know on on LinkedIn for example you can't say anything even remotely critical because the whole narrative of LinkedIn is bigging everyone up which is great and don't get me wrong I've really cherished the support but I don't know how natural it is you know some of us do have disagreements about this stuff

and it's okay but there seems like there's been a glazing over of like no no come on we've all got to support Rick Doblin and Maps and we've all got to support you know Compass Park we've all got to just, hey, come on. We're all in agreement that we want to get access, so we just got to do it in this way. And, yeah, I don't know.

That was a bit of a rant, but. It's beautiful. You know, I submitted some stuff about anti-war for psychedelic science 2025. And I spoke to some veterans, some close friends of mine. And here's my thoughts. Like, there's a lot of military, industrial complex,

supporting the entire psychedelic movement. And I know you have brought this up. When you peel back the onion a little bit, you start thinking about the veterans administration. Well, who pays the veterans administration? Well, that money's coming from the government. And do they really want you as a veteran talking about, hey, man, you know, one of those fucked up part about war is killing all these people.

And then I've got to live with that forever. How about we just give you some of these mushrooms and you talk about you're getting better? That's a way better narrative for people that are making tons of money off a lifestyle that no longer serves us. they're connected all of there and you're right there there's no no one wants to rock that boat like hey to shut up about that that kind of got us in trouble last time we don't want these guys to shut us down and there's lots of funding coming from here and i i see that aspect of it you know

and it's but i don't think there's any legs to a revolution when the narrative is controlled and i think that that is what's happening on a large scale you know and i don't know how to mitigate I don't know what's right or wrong. And it's, I don't, I don't know that, that anybody else really does either. But I don't think you can really, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of push to solve the actual problems. And when I say that, it makes me think the psychedelic movement at times is a lot like the curing the symptoms, not the cause. And that puts us right back where we were with, you know, management of symptoms. Yeah, you bring up a really interesting point because I've been, you know, what I've been looking into with functional mushrooms and this idea of functional medicine and preventative medicine, it's totally backwards with psychedelics.

It's like we're still engaging in this alopathic mentality of, well, we're sort of powerless against all of this stuff, all of these reasons why. we're in this sick place. It's too big of a problem. And actually what we've got is this solution. And I think people are so indoctrinated into that mentality when it comes to health that it bleeds out into the wider societal issues. And it is crazy. You know, seven billion people. How do you manage that? How do you manage geopolitical systems and all this, you know, multinational corporations and just this, these crazy intersections that you can't even begin to unravel that have been in place for however long aren't really even based on anything. You know, it's like all this war is backed on debt and, you know,

funneling of money from the drug war and this is a big thing that it's not spoken about. It's like, hey, why do all these wars happen? Well, it's mostly because drugs are illegal and we help to control stuff by then selling it and funneling it back in to then have more control. And it's just this weird sycophantic. It doesn't actually make any sense. So I understand why it is that we can't engage with it.

I mean, it's great to hear that you've submitted something for psychedelic science based on anti-war. And, you know, I was quite concerned last year when I saw South by Southwest being sponsored by the US Army and I think it was Raytheon. So it's like, you know, sometimes, I mean, you know, I've done a lot of, you know, my research into comedy and humor. And I'm, I'm like, this is amazing material for. for sketches. But it's actually quite, you know, it's almost like people don't want to go there, the psychedelic satirists.

They don't want to go to this point of talking about the really dark stuff. You know, for me, my hero, in my comedic psychedelic hero, Bill Hicks, who I wrote my master's thesis on. So, you know, I was starting watching him when I was 16. And so much of that was about war. And it was so dark, but so funny.

And he didn't necessarily have anything to lose. He didn't have a seat at the table that he was worried about losing. And I worry that there's people in the space that afford the benefits of having a seat at the table, afford the benefits of being invited to lots of events and having prominence, whilst also being able to poke fun. and I worry that that becomes a bit court jester-like. You're allowed to joke about these things and talk about these things and make fun of these things. But don't go to the point where you're going to upset our investors.

And I feel like I should just to be able to say it's weird. I'm like I'm not saying anything else other than hey like hey isn't it weird that Peter Thiel who has loads of shares in Palantir who are like this you know awful military company security company isn't it weird that he's also you know a major shareholder in compass pathways isn't it weird that Christian Angermeyer the former advisor to Paul Kagame, the current dictator of Rwanda, is the CEO of Altai Life Sciences and talking about making the being the leader in the psychedelic space. Isn't that a bit weird? And that, I mean, like, that's what I like to do in general is just kind of look at two things

and go, huh, that's, yeah, what do you think of that? And often people just look at me like I'm a bit crazy and other people stop and go, oh, I'd never really thought of that because everyone rushes a lot. It's like we defer, we've deferred the psychedelic spirituality to the, the tech bros, the billionaires. It's like billionaires used to, I was watching a podcast, recently a comedy podcast and they were talking about the spat between Elon Musk and Sam Altman. And they were like, remember back in the day when billionaires would just silently kill someone and not be on Twitter being all cringy and weird. And I sort of feel like that.

It's like, do we really need these guys on Twitter waxing, lyrical about psychedelics? Do we need this level of engagement and interest? It all seems a bit full on and creepy, I think. Man, so many great points in there. On topic of Palant here, I recently saw like they had, there was a viral clip that kind of went around.

And I think the guy's name is Alex Carp. He's the CEO. And for his meeting, he just came out and he was like, you know what? We're crushing it. We are a technology company. And sometimes we've got to kill people.

I was like, whoa, listen to this guy. This stock shoots up through the roof. I'm like, whoa. It is amazing to think like, okay, let me throw this one out, Jow. Oli, I was talking to Josh Hardman the other night. Oh, yeah.

And here's my, here's kind of what I see on the horizon that I see echoing. And I might be way off, but I think it's close. It seems like an echo to me. If you look at Trump kind of coming in and you look at his background, like I think his brother-in-law or his brother was an alcoholic and died from drugs. So Trump hates drugs. He's said it publicly multiple times before. He was at a meeting yesterday where he was talking about, he says, you know, I think

the United States is ready to give the death penalty to drug dealers. And I'm thinking to myself, what an incredible statement to think about. And it makes me think there was so many sort of elitist psychedelic members that kind of were on the bandwagon for Trump. And Trump kind of seems like Nixon with all of this sort of banter about drug dealers and stuff like that. You know, we've already had some kind of botched trials. Like it's beginning to look a lot like the point in time where, you know, they tried to put the genie back in the bottle. I think we're one Jones Town away. We're one MK ultra lunatic away from this thing being packaged back up and put back in the lab.

And that is when you see the creativity just explode. You see the music come out. You see all these billionaires that are pissed off and they start funding counterculture movements. I think we're on the horizon for that. At least an echo of it. Am I too crazy to see that maybe panning out? What's your thoughts? That's really.

Yeah. fascinating. That would be an amazing thing to see if, you know, those of us artists and creative people and, you know, could, could get these billionaires on site to realize the creative potential. I mean, I hope it doesn't take, you know, another MK Ultra casualty. I you know the whole Trump thing Elon Musk RFK

it's often a bit confusing you know it does seem like there is a clear directive of the way in which these drugs are being used you know very much in this in this therapeutic sense

very much in this controlled sense very much deferring the authority to people who aren't necessarily in touch with the other sides of psychedelics, aren't necessarily in touch with ideas surrounding oneness or spirituality or philosophy or nature-connectedness. You know, does RFK, you know, you listen to RFK's views on Israel and Ukraine. It's like he's not particularly anti-war. he's he's pro you know he talks about his brother you know using ayahuasca so it's like they're pro psychedelics in this rational sense and it is this very it's like rationalist well okay we don't want to

have a situation on our hand where we have all our veterans killing themselves because if all our veterans killed themselves then like no one would go to war and people would really realize that war is bad you know so we've been got to make sure that we do our best to mitigate this trauma while still being able to enact atrocities. And I know Republicans are marketing Trump as being a peacemaker. But again, it's a rationalist point of view. You know, what's happening with Russia and Ukraine, Putin has just offered up Ukrainian and

Russian minerals to the US. So it's very rationalist. Of course, yeah, let's not continue this war because it makes no sense to continue this war. It's got to the point where Ukraine can't win. So now we're taking a rationalist, you know, the like John Meersheim, a real politic point of view. Yeah, the thing that makes sense is to start talking to the Russians. Have they got with these minerals? Great. You know, it's like we're seeing it's like real estate being. bought up. I don't know if you've come across Curtis Yavin. He's like a tech.

Ex-tech person, now a philosopher and a lot of these people on the right, you know, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, they are subscribing to Curtis Yavins' way of thinking where essentially you run the country like a company. You have Donald Trump as the CEO

and that's why he's brought in these tech people to help him run it like a country where you do just make these rationalist decisions. So I don't, I don't see, you know, the psychedelic progression as necessarily being positive. I think it might ultimately funnel it down this place of control. And we're seeing, you know, I don't know enough about the laws in the US because it's often, you know, the state laws can get a bit confusing. But it seems like there's, there's, there's genies trying to be put back in the bottle in place like Oregon, you know, where things necessarily haven't quite worked out well.

You know, we might need to reframe how we engage with psychedelics, but I think leaving it up to the government is bad news. You know, we're seeing it, you know, the UK is disastrous. And at least you guys have some access in a limited sense in, you know, certain states. But yeah, it just seems really messy at the moment. Yeah, I think it's right on point. You know, if you're going to run your government like a Fortune 500 business where people are numbers, then you're just going to look at it from that perspective. You know, and you're going to, you're going to look at it like, well, we can't centralize psychedelics. So let's fucking put them back.

We can't get our arms around it. We don't have a supply chain. Plus, we got these guys called the ATF. They don't want any part of it. They already have a drug trade. Why do they need these new kids on the block? Get these kids out of here. you know, but for me, with with the glimmer of hope, like, it seems to me, you know, there's two sides.

You got the Republicans and Democrats, but the Democrats, this is such an opportunity for these people. They could run, they could take psychedelics right out of the hands of the right now. You, if you look back to the way in which I forgot the name of the house, like back in the 60s, all of these incredible artists up by Woodstock, they stayed in this giant house. It was provided to them by a billionaire. and they had all this creative. They had Ram Dass and Casey and all these people were there coming up with how to create a radical movement. And you look at the left in the United States, there is zero momentum. If you are on the left and you're in politics, grab hold of that psychedelic lever right now and start sponsoring the counterculture.

Like that is where these people are going to find a way to break loose. Like they're just wandering around aimlessly. But psychedelics is like, psychedelics is like the most. most beautiful person room like, hey, I'm over here. Hey, look at me. Hey, check at this. You know, and I think that there's so much potential there to really free up thought, to free up revolution and to have a movement happen. You know, and we're in desperate need of a real cultural movement to unify and to give vision towards the future and present something to the kids coming up. And there's some great, there's some great chat in the chat. I want to

read a few here and get your opinion on this. So we have, Alignment KK says, on point, LinkedIn psychedelic space feels like high school, only the popular kids matter. That's kind of funny. It's funny. I'm on there all the time. Yeah, I'm on there, you know, and I, hey, I wasn't a popular kid at high school. And that's what, you know, ironically, that's, that's what really attracted me to psychedelics was that I got to. find my place with the weird kids.

I finally found my tribe with the people that also didn't really fit in at school. And we found that like, you know, particularly the psychedelic humor, this shared sense of these novel experiences where you're cracking each other up on LSD or something. And it's this real bonding, this real feeling of like you've stumbled upon the magic. You give a little wink, little nudge to the other person. Yeah. And now I'm like, you know, what I find funny is. when we set up the Kent Psychedelic Society

and we had our stall at the Freshers Fair, you know, 2009, 2010, and those quote-unquote popular kids will be coming up to the stall and looking at us like we were crazy. What do you mean, psychedelic society? You're all out in the wood smoking DMT or whatever it is, you know,

and we were like, no, no, doing things very seriously. And now it's like, hey, all the popular kids are like, wow, have you heard about microdosing? I'm like, oh, okay, right. What, is there something that can kick off a movement? Like, are you familiar with the way revolution start or movement starts? It seems to me it's through music and art. Like, there's a real big shift that can happen through subtle artwork.

And I think of like Banksy or some of these street artists that go out there and they just, they put up these minerals. they put up this artwork and it's, you know, murals with metaphors. And, you know, I started thinking of like Diego Rivera and like how the art can really play a significant role in changing the hearts and minds of the people at the very bottom level. You're an artist. What are your thoughts? Absolutely.

I mean, you really do make a good point with this because some people will dismiss the cultural, societal shifts that can come from art. But I see it on a regular basis with going to so many gigs, playing shows where I see this very real camaraderie and bonding through often shared experiences of having gone through quite difficult times, you know. And I enjoy heavy music quite a lot, heavy metal, you know. I, yeah, there's a, an interesting, there's a charity in the UK called heavy metal therapy, which is based on the idea that, yeah,

you're, you're in this shared space where you're listening to music, which is quite a, you know, cathartic experience. But in that bonded state, you're actually able to both let go and feel that everything is actually all right. And, you know, I see it so much where people light up, you know, and they come up to me at the end of a show and they compliment me on the music, that experience of being complimented of being able to give that gift and then someone being able to give that gift of appreciation.

And then being, you know, it's like I played a festival in the summer where it was headlined by some of my favorite bands. And it was unbelievable just to be watching music that I loved and then, you know, anticipating playing. and having lots of experiences with people where you are in something of a spiritual state because you're in that elevated, connected place where it is almost like that that oneness is really happening. And I do think we forget that. I think the revolution can't necessarily come from everyone setting up their own retreats. or being, you know, number one at putting out content all the time or it becomes a bit

exhaustive. It becomes a bit like a convey about, okay, what are we doing? We're just getting more likes for the sake of likes, putting out more content for the sake of it, okay, and then we get the adulation and then what? We have this adulation within a system which doesn't necessarily serve everyone or serve that oneness. So I think, you know, art is possibly the most powerful thing we have. There are some difficulties where, you know, the structural systems at play, like in the UK, it's pretty much impossible. You know, we being a musician playing the type of music that I play, we don't make a living from it. There's not that kind of system in place. everything is so expensive the fees are so low it costs so much to hire out venues small venues are

closing every week it there's not the support from the government so there's that stuff that you have to grapple with but i think in doing so in carrying on with that you know the communities that get made are really astounding and the joy that people have and the connections that people have you know i would love to see something a kid into the kind of 60s and 70s happen with more of a targeted focus. I genuinely think

the 60s and 70s, my honest opinion, it got derailed by the CIA. I think it's pretty obvious. You know, Timothy Leary was, I've spoken to people who were personal friends with Tim and it seemed that he was

aware that he was being used by the CIA. and turned round and basically, you know, wasn't going to be used, but unfortunately couldn't instigate that movement because it had been derailed. And, you know, I see articles coming out that say there was a recent one last year in the summer on Rolling Stone and it said, you know, the 60s and 70s derailed all hope of psychedelic therapy, you know, providing, solutions that it was going to provide.

You know, there is this sense that like, okay, we have to get away from the revolutionary side of things because it's not useful. It's not useful to the aims that we're trying to achieve. But then it's like, well, who's set these goals? Who set these aims of whatever it might be, you know, Rick Doblin talking about net zero trauma? Okay, well, where has that goal come from? Why is the goal not worldwide interconnectedness?

you know, as we talk about these things in this, I guess, capitalist way. But I do think, you know, I do agree with you, I guess is what I'm trying to say that as an artist and musician, I see it happening all the time. And, you know, the difficulty is where there's, as I said earlier,

there's not necessarily a whole load of crossover. There's people in the psychedelic creative spaces who aren't necessarily going, along to these conferences. You know, the fact that you have a conference called psychedelic science might put some people off who aren't scientists. But, you know, you think about, okay, it's 15,000 people.

That's quite a lot of people for a conference. But then in the grand scheme of the population of the United States, it's nothing. So I'm sure there's more artists out there that don't necessarily know about this whole bubble of psychedelic research that are doing psychedelic art that are engaging in these communities. And maybe it's a sense of having to find those communities that exist and bring them more into the forefront and get them involved and see what they think about what is going on.

Stop deferring everything to the scientists and the researchers who are bleeding over into the cultural space and telling us, you know, it's like we've made them, I don't know, what we've made them. It's like these kind of godlike figures where we're like please tell us what to do. We're just waiting. We're waiting for someone to tell us how to take drugs and listen to music

properly to get the best experience. Please, I don't know how. I'm like, okay, fair enough. You know, I get it. There's sound for everyone. But I do question that. People have been taking drugs and listening to music for thousands of years pretty efficiently.

It's so true. It's so true. It makes me think that, you know, there's always like an insurgent on some level, whether it's, you know, inserting someone into a black block group or inserting someone into the psychedelic movement because the narrative is so powerful. You know, and if we're starving for novelty, like we're starving for novelty. Like we're starving for novelty. We've made some of these people that are writing hypothetical papers on mechanism of action equivalent to Jimmy Hendricks. Like there's no comparison there. Like, why is this person who's writing papers who's never worked in the real world at all, at all, at all?

Like, why is that person so important? Like, they're not. They're not. Like, listen to what they're saying. And it's really not even that interesting. Like, oh, that's your theory. Oh, okay, cool. Awesome. Have you seen this guy play car? Have you seen what this guy's doing over here? Like, why, why is there's so much? Because the only thing I can think of, Ollie, is like, that's where the money's at. That's where the patent comes from. This is, this is a group of people in the back. This is, hey, here's a young kid. He's kind of cool. Let's put all the weight on this person. And then we'll, not only will we get the drug out of it, but we'll control the narrative and we'll have a patent afterwards. It's like putting in sync together instead of allowing.

some band to come up and find their own rhythm. It just seems, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, it's that harmony. This guy plays bass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting that you mention that about the young people because, I mean, I'm not necessarily that young anymore.

I'm not necessarily that old. I'm in my mid-30. So I'm kind of in this, I'm in this midway point. And I see a lot of these rising young stars, which don't get me wrong, I think is great. and I champion, you know, there's the people that have taken over the Kent Psychedelic Society who are, you know, 19, 20 years old. I'm sort of there as an elder to help them and suggest things and oversight. And it is wonderful having that connection.

But what I find interesting is, for example, you know, 21-year-olds who are just like come out of nowhere being propped up and they are these. rising stars and it's amazing and wonderful. But also I think, okay, it's great to have that enthusiasm for the young people. We need this younger generation coming in to help change things. You know, there's been, there's arguably, you know, generational issues with the psychedelic space, with stuff to do with healing and war that might weed themselves out once a new generation comes in. But actually, there's a lot of people in the space who are still alive that I consider to

be elders that I, you know, have had, you know, I guess reverence for, because they've been connected to people in this space who have done the groundbreaking research and, you know, put their necks on the line, so to speak, where maybe it wasn't so cool to talk about this stuff. And there are a lot of people I consider, you know, in their kind of 70s and 80s who might be unsung heroes who don't necessarily. really get enough press because they're old and we do live in an ageist society unfortunately where it's like we are you know we've got the Forbes 30 under 30 it's like that's that's an important thing to be you know under 30 years old because or because once you hit 30 years old that

means you start you know you're starting to get old now and it's just a bit weird you know I'm like this is a psychedelic space it's a magical space but where are the wizards and the witches and the hags and the crones, everyone is so, yeah, it feels like, as you said, this kind of, you know, it's so funny. You're talking about it in terms of n-sync, because it does feel like there's just people that come out of nowhere and I'm like, hey, is this an industry plant? You know, what's, what's going on here? You're talking about things in a certain narrative that then dictates the way in which we engage with the substances themselves. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It makes me feel like I do see some some cool threads out there, you know, for people who

were interested. For people who are interested, there's, there's an easy way to hijack narratives and it's through art. Like if you take a, like find an event going around and then create your own artwork around it. Like there's no reason why you can't create the narrative. And especially in the world of psychedelics, like that's what the psychedelic movement is about. It's about finding a new way to push the movement that is beneficial, not just for a handful of people, but for all the people. You know, it seems that creativity is not only inspired by psychedelics, but it goes hand in hand with it. And I'm hopeful. I'm looking forward to this conference. I want there to, I want to meet a group of like-minded people, and I want to listen to people whose ideas are radically

different than mine. And I want to have incredible discussions with people I disagree with about, what is this thing doing? And what's that going on? And I think those are the most incredible spaces. And for everybody listening, if you're within the sound of my voice, I would love for you to join my campaign of creating a psychedelic science poster. Like there's no rules, but let me see some of the artwork. And this message goes out to not only the artist out there that may have a degree or the graphic designers, I want all you to design, but all the kids out there, all the older guys, everybody out there, I want to see what your idea of a psychedelic poster looks like. Create the poster, write psychedelic science 2025 on it. Send it to me. I'll promote it to all my

my channels, give you all the credit for it, get you some exposure, hopefully. But I think that that's the kind of movement where we can begin to foster our own community. And it's campaigns within campaigns. So for everybody out there, it's an open invitation to you. How about how about bands coming and just playing on the side for a little bit? You know, I think there's all, if we can treat these conferences sort of like a dead show, I think we can sort of create the the charisma and create the creativity that comes out of it, man. Is it too wild to think that we can have that kind of creativity explode out of these conferences?

No, I don't think so at all. And the thing I love about these conferences is often the times when I'm not in the talks, when I'm outside talking to people, engaging with people in these creative conversations, which are inspiring and give you this sense of community, but also this sense of empowerment, feeling like, you know, there is that tribe out there of people that want to do really interesting things with their, you know, writing or art or music or, you know,

doing podcasting, having interesting conversations with people that just get the juice flowing. It's like, hey, this is what Enlightenment is, all about from my perspective it's having these conversations it's asking people hey what do you mean and what's that and show me this and let me listen to that and let me play you this you know it's that constant unfolding of human experience which is so delightful and keeps me forever in the creative space you know i've been a musician since i was five years old and i love it more than anything because it brings me that richness and that that connection.

And I think these places are real melting parts, you know, especially something like psychedelic science where you have so many people, but even breaking convention, which is happening in just a couple of months, I think. April, yeah, there's one and a half thousand people, I think, which is that's a small, that's a really small number of people for,

you know, a major event in the, the UK, but for a psychedelic event, it's massive. So, and there's so many different people from different parts of the world that come together. And I think, irrespective of the wider narratives of pharmaceuticalization and corporatization, which have existed, you know, forever and will probably persist for forever, right? There's these moments of creative spark that you find in these places where everyone is, everyone is just on a buzz to be there. And I think, you know, I don't be wrong,

there's a lot of people who are, you know, having a little microdose or two, right? Yeah. People are in that, like, elevated state there. There's been like a few breaking convention conferences where I've had to like, I had to just like go and take time on my own, not because the conversation's been overwhelming or anything,

but because I'm just picking up on this crazy energetic field, this buzz of excitement that is. like wow you know and and that is really exciting and really important to hold on to and it keeps us reminded of of that intrigue and i think it is a lot to do with like you know maybe inner child work finding that stuff that excites you that keeps that inner child alive and connected to the wonderment and enchantment you know i talk to people a lot about these ideas of re-enchanting the psychedelic space connecting with these people, you know, connecting with writers and other musicians and artists and poets. And I'm trying to always have these conversations and share people's art

and champion things where I see it and find ways to collaborate with people is really important in an artistic sense. You know, I love, you know, I really love playing shows with other bands that I really love and respect. You know, that just gives me so much joy to be like watching a band and be like, these guys are awesome. And we're playing the same show, like, what? And it'll be, you know, a tiny show where there's like, whatever, 100 people watching. But it's awesome. And yeah, the more that we do that, the more that we engage with the practical eminent side of things, you know, where things can emerge.

You know, people coming together, you get these crazy things emerging that you didn't know if it happened. And yeah, I think just more of it. I love it. Yeah, I, on some ways, like, I think that it's conversations like this. Like, you're talking about the band and the music you play and what it means to you and playing in front of shows. And you're also saying, look, I've been taking these particular drugs that help me with my creativity. You know, there's not enough of that. Like, there's not enough of people listening to that.

I remember a long time ago hearing, like, the bass player or the lead, I think it was the bass player from Green Day. and there was this interview like how did you come up with this rip and he's like oh I was slammed on like 800 mics of LSD and it just came to me and it just came to me I just played for like five hours man and I was like there you go like some kid gets a hold of the and he's like I'm going to do that that's where it comes from like and like it's just so interesting to see the contagiousness and the the sort of you know I'm reminded of the the cool from Hunter Thompson like you don't find acid acid finds you. Like, we need to help. Yeah. You know, we need to help letting you find people.

But let's talk about music, man. What you got? I mean, that I really, you know, that whole thing of, one of my favorite bits is just a little snippet from a, an interview with Black Sabbath in the,

in the 70s. And I think it's an Australian interview. And he's like, what do you like to do in your spare time? And then Ozzy Osbourne just goes, oh, mostly smoke a lot of marijuana, you know? And he's like,

you're not serious, are you? It's like, yeah, you know, and for me it was like Black Sabbath were, man, they were, you know, one of the first heavy metal bands, rock bands that I got into when I was quite young. And one of my favorite songs, Sweetleaf, where it literally starts with the sound of Ozzy Osbourne, you know, taking a puff on a joint and then coughing. And it's a song in homage to this plant. and for me, you know, particularly with the kind of metal that I was listening to, you know, this breed of stoner metal, it is explicitly infused with, you know, songs about cannabis and also, you know, a lot of the psychedelic stuff, there's, it's, you can't escape it, you know, and a lot of these bands maybe weren't so explicit, you know, a lot of the more like the, the, the, progressive rock bands. They were more about the kind of musicology and the weirdness and the fantasy and the fantastical side of things. But it was, you know, for me, you couldn't separate

these two things at all. So I have, you know, as I said, that was my interest in psychedelics. That's what got me in was that the cultural side of it. But I didn't really understand it until I started to take psychedelics and play music. music. And for me, that creativity comes from essentially removing me, removing the, I don't want to say ego, because the ego is important in these states, right? I'm still me playing music. I still have to have a sense of ego, right? I play the saxophone. I have to be within my physical shell and know that I'm playing with other musicians. But it's this interplay of ego and non-ego. So I have to have just enough ego to get on stage to be able to count, keep in time, do all these things

that the ego needs to do. But I need to have it reduced just enough so that everything can flow through me and I become a vessel for the music, which is out there, right? It's not coming from me. All of this stuff, the whatever you want to call it, the architecture of music, it exists within physics and maths and all of this stuff. And then you bring it into the stuff. And then you bring it into the space. So for me, LSD was unbelievable. It, I think, restructured the way in which I perceive music from an experiential point of view. It's like I, I experienced music as this kind of 3D space, almost like a structural space. And before I didn't really used to, it's like I can feel myself moving through. I've entered into this realm that's also, it's like a four-dimensional

space I'm in there but it's also flowing through me and I'm it's like creating an interesting feedback or something where it creates a flow state and then in that flow state when I'm jamming with other people you know I frequently will and I you know I'm very open with my bandmates about this and even my the lead singer of my band will almost prescribe to me she'll be like Ollie here's a little microdose of acid we need you to be on on point on point for the And it's astounding what happens because the stage fright, all that stuff just goes. I'm like, I'm locked in. And that has come from many years of taking LSD and being quite comfortable with it and

really enjoying it and enjoying the space that it puts me in. But that ability to not get in the way of myself and then be able to connect with other people in a way that just flows. and almost you you sort of engage in this telepathic way of doing things, where you become this omnipind, right? And you're all just in and you're locked in. And somehow you all come in at the same time, you know, and you're jamming you come in at the same time.

Or it gets really heavy. You're all anticipating stuff at the same time. You're all in the same space. And yeah, you know, for me, psychedelics have been amazing for that. And my bandmates, they don't necessarily dabble as much as me. but they are all experienced in that sense. I love it, man. This should be, like,

you and your band, like I can see in my mind's eye right now, like a write-up of you and your band in like double-blind magazine or maybe Dustin Hawksworth's Fat Nugs magazine. Like we need, that's like, you can see the culture. Like I can.

I can see the culture happening. Like, dude, these new magazines coming up are sick. Like you got Jack Gorsland who's like, he's like the new Hunter Thompson, man. The guy's blasting stuff out, putting people on blast. The guy's amazing, man. I love that guy. He's writing for double blind, which is a cool magazine.

You got Dustin Hawksworth's Fat Nugs magazine. Like, it's like these magazines are the Rolling Stones and the high times of the next generation. And you can see like the high times and the rolling stones kind of falling away in these new magazines beginning to rise and the artists that are coming in there. Like, man, Ollie, like I can see it. Like this. I'm going to talk to those guys. I hope that it would be cool to have. out like a featured artist in there, right?

Like, here's my relationship with cannabis. Let's do that. Yeah, that would be, that would be epic. Because for me, you know, from a, from a, the psychospiritual perspective with, with music, but also from a physical perspective, you know, struggling with physical health conditions and like the ability for psychedelics to and cannabis to put me in a state where I'm feeling empowered and safe with my body and

feeling like, yeah, let's, let's do it. let's go for it. Let's push myself. And let's, you know, finding the joy in the creative art. Yeah. It trumps the any physical pains or exhaustion or like, you know, going on tour is certainly not glamorous at all when you're at a band of my level. But, you know, you get those 40, 45 minutes, an hour on stage playing a set. And it's the best thing in the world.

And all of that other stuff becomes worth it. So, you know, the psychedelics give me that like overall life appreciation. I think it speaks volumes too of creativity as an act of healing you know how many people out there

are fatigue be themselves you know how many people are have been blinded to this illusion of the race from the graveyard to the crematorium and you got to make as much money as possible

like where are the dreamers man like I think Psychedelics is such a gateway and a doorway to creating the very best version of yourself. And so much of that comes from experiencing what you're capable of, whether it's music, whether it's singing, whether it's poetry, whether it's sculpting, whether it's being a plumber, whether it's being a welder, being a trucker, whatever it is, man, that kind of calls to you. I think taking some psychedelics will really help you create the very best version of yourself. elf and it's such a it's such a I wish there was more of that like I want that out there for the young

people to be like okay I'm an adult I'm responsible enough to figure out how to use this in a way maybe some rituals man I seen a there was a great interview with uh Caesar from cultivating wisdom and Gary and they had Rick Doblin on and Rick Doblin was telling the story about how when his kids turn 12 he's like you know what I think you're ready for MDMA if you want to do it here's a responsible way to do it and I thought wow I never heard that story before what a cool And it takes me back to the book, the island, where they climb that rock face and they sit in that church. And hey, let's show you what you're capable of here. Is it, is it too much to think about, I know I'm kind of just blasting out here, Ollie?

But is it too much to think that we're ready to have kids at the age at 12 or 14 have like a ritual experience with what the mind is capable of? Oh, I, I'm not sure if I'd agree with Rick. desire to give his 12-year-old kids MDMA. I think the issue is that we lack rights of passage in this society. I don't know whether instilling an MDMA writer passage at 12 years old is necessarily going to be good because there's no

cultural context to that. There's no there's no precedent for that. So I don't know. You know, I come from a Jewish society where I've had rights of passage, which haven't necessarily been that positive. But, you know, it's a fascinating thing, these ideas of like, you know, young kids taking psychedelics. You know, I know people who have been ayahuasca shamans and they're all reverence in, and they've given their kids.

their young kids, ayahuasca and their kids are super switched on, you know, really capable teenagers now. But there's been some cultural container for that ayahuasca. I don't know where the cultural container for MDMA is. I don't know. I don't know what the effect that would have, you know, having a parent who is the, the, the authority on MDMA then giving you MDMA and saying this is going to be good for you you know can you make an informed decision at 12 years old surrounding psychedelics sometimes I wish I'd taken LSD when I was like 15 because I probably would have been much cooler in

in high school you know and and it's you know it certainly really helped with that it certainly helped me make me feel more at ease and okay I took uh MDMA mushrooms, I think when I was 19, even 19 or 20. So not necessarily that far off from 12, but still, you know, I'd had life experiences. I'd been on a gap year before university. I'd drunk loads of alcohol to the point where I never wanted to look at alcohol again. I'd been smoking weed from the age of like 14 or something like that. So I, you know, I yearn for some sort of cultural container.

It would have been nicer to not have had such traumatic psychedelic. I had some nasty psychedelic experiences early on. And it would have been great to have not had them. But I had the experiences that I had. And I don't know. You know, I like to think I'm quite. a nice person and people tend to get on well with me. I'm pretty peace loving. I'm, you know, I have a good relationship with my partner and my, my dad and my stepmom and my,

you know, brother and sister and my cousins, you know, relatively close to family members compared to other people. But, you know, part of me thinks, hey, wouldn't it have been lovely if we have all had these experiences together? And, you know, I'm sort of the black sheep, deep in my family where, you know, other people in, other members of my family haven't had these experiences and often it has created a bit of tension and that's sad, you know, and there's often, I guess there's that sadness, there's that lack of connection, there's that lack of shared story and, hey, maybe if we'd have all taken mushrooms when we were 10 years old and connected to the local forest spirits, we'd be more of a like,

I don't know, cohesive family, less disparate, less separate lives. But yeah, I don't know. There's certain cultures which certainly, you know, it's like if you didn't have that stuff, the society would fall apart. Yeah. You see the black sheep of your family. And I, my story echoes that as well. Like maybe that is some sort of a cosmic ritual.

You know, when you start looking back at mythology, there's always the person that's kind of shunned or different or weird or even loved and revered. But then all of a sudden, they find themselves way over here on this side. And hey, man, don't talk to that guy. That guy's doing a lot of drugs, man. I got that guy off. You know what I mean? Like, I know for me being a podcaster and being open, like I've gotten quite a bit of stigma with people, not only people in my family, but people in polite community. that it's like you do you talk about what on george i listen to one of your podcasts are you okay you know

you need some help man i'm like no you guys might need some right that's why i'm doing it interesting but what is it a cosmic maybe it is a certain type of person that's been through some tragedy that's that's that's that's it's a little different that might be out there that's attracted to psychedelics maybe it's not for everybody maybe it's just for the people that it calls yeah i mean you you you've you've right raise a kind of critical point, I think, with the psychedelic stuff, you know, if you think about places like ancient Greece or the Ellicinian mysteries, you know, people weren't, people weren't, from what I understand, from speaking to scholars about this stuff, people weren't talking a lot

about drugs, they weren't trying to get everyone on drugs, they were reserving these experiences for certain people and you know one could argue that that is elitist and gatekeeping but arguably if we have a society which is cohesive where it's not one that's based on competition but it's based on connection then ultimately you don't need to have everyone having that experience you know the role of the shaman is essentially that black sheep who can go out into the wilderness into the forest commune with the spirits take that substance plant, whatever it is, and go deep and then bring back that knowledge and also take on a lot of the stuff from that tribe.

You know, this is what I find with being the black sheep. It's like I often, you know, and I'm interestingly, I'm the youngest out of my brother and sister and I have quite a lot of older cousins. And for a while I was the youngest of the cousins as well. so I was always this and even in my mid-30s, you know, still whatever, these patterns coming up where I'm treated a bit like the youngest. Yeah. And there's a sense of like taking on everyone else's stuff or getting the blame for things or always getting it wrong or whatever it is and actually you realize, okay, well, you know, I've done a lot of living in, you know, my family's all from a particular part of. London and a lot of those people live in the same kind of area and I've I've lived in

Australia I've done traveling I've been in other countries I you know aren't not necessarily always kind of attached to that family dynamic but when I have been in these places it's it's felt like I've been on something of a quest to find out okay what is that magic what is that deeper essence and you know don't get me wrong I try and bring that to people in my family and often it gets met with disdain, but I still keep doing it. And I wouldn't want to not do that. I wouldn't want to give up and go, well, they're not interested. I mean, don't be wrong. There are a lot of moments where I'm like, well, they're never going to be interested, so I won't bother. But I think as well, just still like, hey, I've

got family members following me on social media. So even just posting stuff up, even just, it sparks a conversation. You know, at first, it became a bit uncomfortable where family members would say, ooh, I've seen what you're posting about psychedelics. But actually doing that enabled, it was an icebreaker to say, yeah. But they said, I've seen what you're posting about magic mushrooms and depression. Yeah, that's right. You know, this is the research. And then in doing so, you can comfortably be that black sheep, you can comfortably say, yeah, don't worry. I'm going to go and find out this information and I'll bring it to you. And hopefully in however many years' time when the stigma's reduced,

you will thank me for bringing you that information. And if you don't, then no harm, no foul, you know. I'm not here to gain any points or have anyone say that I've saved them. You know, my dad has Parkinson's. I tried, you know, I got him on Lion's Main Coffee for a little while. He tried it. he said it was working and then he stopped doing it. I'm like, all right.

You know, there you go. At least there's that. At least you've tried it. But I'm not here to try and be the psychedelic savior. I think that the black sheep's can lead by example, really. And yeah, I don't think everyone has to be on psychedelics. I think it's a fallacy. I think it's a fallacy to have to have the experience.

I think. there's a caveat to that because you get a lot of people who are becoming authorities on the experience that have never had those experiences. But I do think, hey, as a society overall, can we have certain people who are these black sheep, shamanic type people to hold the space and what was called the roadman in Native American culture, the person who stokes the fire, who makes sure that everything is in check? and then the rest of society can resonate from that. Yeah, it makes sense. It's, you know, I'm reminded of two quotes, one of which is being really early looks a lot like being really wrong. And, you know, if you've had these, it's a good one, right?

Yeah. I think that's kind of with psychedelics, like for people that have been, and far beyond me, like there's, I'm coming up on 50 and I've had a long relationship, but there's people that I think are younger and older that have much more knowledge than me in this area. But it does seem like, you know, telling people about how your psychedelic journey has found, how you found a way to see the world differently, it seems wrong to so many people. But maybe it's just early.

Maybe the microdosing is helping other people find a way to see reality different. And the microdosing and all this stuff can be like a trojan. in horse that kind of just, you know, pops out at the middle of the night and starts inspiring people or something like that. But yeah, I know that's kind of an interesting tidbit right there, but do you see, in your opinion, do you see this movie? Yeah, I think we're still so early. You know, I've been having conversations with people about psychedelics who are outside the psychedelic space. And, you know, again, you know, just thinking about the numbers. It's like, Okay, when you're in the bubble, you know, 15,000 people at psychedelic science.

It's like, wow. And then you step outside the bubble. You know, none of my family members have heard of Maps. Until my brother and sister have heard of Rick Doblin and Maps, then it's still really new. It's still really small. You know, until your grandma is talking about MDMA. And, okay, there's this stuff happening in the US where you have more of that.

scope. But I still think, okay, if you go into like, you know, I'm sure that's still within certain bubbles in American society. I'm sure if you were to go into like middle America, you know, how many people in the Appalachian Mountains have heard of Rick Dublin or like, you know, you go into these parts of the UK to like a village in North Wales where they've still got their roofs made of slate and all this stuff. You know, it's like, No one's heard of these people. No one cares about this stuff. But they might start to care when, you know,

they encounter difficulties or want to enrich their lives in a psychedelic way. But I still think we're so early. But it is interesting how there are big players in the space, really influential people in the space talking about this stuff, which might seem like, okay, we're unable to recapture some of that enchantment. But I still

think there is that essence there and we're not too far gone. I still, you know, going back to what I said about it kind of being like this soupy mess, I still think we're in that state where we've got a lot of interest, there's a lot of hype,

there's a lot of money come in, it's all happened really quickly, but actually they're within all that noise and that chaos, there is that room to create something really solid, creative, artistic that has longevity. Is that, is that like, is that a philosophy? Or maybe, maybe you could speak about your philosophy. Like, it seems to me, sometimes when I look at the way my celium grows, like you can see,

it, at first it just seems chaotic, like it's going everywhere. But it's really searching out the right paths in order for it to fruit at a certain place. It's looking to link up with other parts of itself so it can strengthen itself and then grow at a pace where it can consume the entire substrate. Do you think that maybe like that's kind of what's happening with the people that find themselves taking a lot of mycelium or taking a lot of psychedelics? Are we in fact like a fractal unit of it? Yeah, it's really interesting that you brought up the fractal unit. I was having a fascinating conversation yesterday with someone called Jazz Razul, who's been doing some interesting research into essentially the architecture of consciousness.

And I was speaking to my uncle as well, who's been doing research into something called post-quantum mechanics, which is looking at these kind of non-linear processes related to consciousness, using fractal mathematics and it seems like the actual architectural structure of consciousness might be working in line with fractal mathematics.

And so then you see how mycelium is growing in this fractal way you look at brain scans of people under the influence with psilocybin and lion's main combination. It seems like it's growing these you know, the dendrites at the end of your brain cells is growing in this fractal way. It's mimicking, you know, it's showing us this very real kind of oneness, but actually, you know, in understanding this fractal nature, fractal nature, we are able to engage with the, you know,

it's like we understand the fractal nature of our architecture. We are able to prime our bodies more to engage. with the fractal nature of psychedelics mycelium, this mycelial network, which is working in a way which it's not like a top-down hierarchical structure where we're telling people how to do things and fixing stuff. We're looking for where are the necessary resources, where can things be best placed, where is the energy directed in a way which is going to be efficient and supportive

and not in this competitive way. It's like the brain is a network, right? The networks don't, I mean, in some cases, right, they do compete. And in people with disorders, they do compete. But actually, you know, how the brain is working optimally, it's these group of networks which are complementing each other and they're not competing and they're not trying to gain dominance. They're talking and communicating.

And I'm sure, you know, working in this kind of. of mycelial fractal way seems I mean hey it's like the best structural pattern in nature everything seems to use this fractal structural pattern so it seems pretty efficient it seems like a really efficient way to get information into these tiny spaces you know when my uncle was talking to me about the fractal mathematics of the brain it's like you've okay you've got a series of one to 10, but then in between the one and the two, you've got another series of one to 10. And then in between that one and two in that series of one to 10, you've got another series of one to 10. It just keeps going. So you can have all these information just like swirling in on

itself. And I picked up this book, which is, you know, it's funny. I was just like thinking about this stuff. And then I was in a thrift store and I found this book that was about the spiral in, you know, in all these different cultures, all these different, you know, pieces of artwork where the spiral has been drawn and looking at the concepts of the spiral in Kundalini and Taoism. And it's like there's something going on here. There's some, there's like a very real, there's never been any more obvious signifier of what's going on. to me it's the fractal it's that spiral it's that fibinot that that thing which you know i have been obsessed with if i was to like show you all my like notes of doodling i just have constant

fractals of just doodling it's like a weird obsession to draw it because there's something where it's you're you're returning and going back at the same time it's a feeding into itself and going out. So you're always in this state of just being open and also opening yourself too. You know, it's, yeah, for me, I'm all on the fractal stuff at the moment. I love it, man.

I can't help but think that particular imagery and those particular patterns are also what you see with the geometric imagery on like really large doses. whether sometimes eyes clothed, sometimes eyes open. Like you just see these mandala's or sometimes these, you know, 3D geometrical images that are just spinning in place. And I'm like, dude, this is a language right here. And once you see it, you know, it's, I think it must have something to do with the

particular activating system. Like, once you see it in a trip, like you can see it in other places. And I do think that it helps you further understand the mandelbrot set or the fractal ideas. You know, I can't help but look at a map or. a globe and see all the supply chains, all the, all the stuff is going and like, you know, like all the boat paths and all the flight patterns. And like, man, it looks a lot like a neural network, you know, is this how much of this was conscious. Like, this is just what we're doing. It's just, it's, it blows my mind to think about that. And then you start look at the language like, well, we have a, in the world, we have a right hemisphere and a left hemisphere. You know, you start understanding how the language fits in everything else, man. It's so crazy. Yeah, absolutely. It's astounding, isn't it? Mind-blung.

You know, here's another one, too. As someone like yourself who studied mycelium, I think there's lots of ways to engineer stuff too. There's that, are you familiar with that experiment where they made like a mold of Japan and then put that slime mold on? Oh, the Tokyo subway. Yeah, yeah. Can you tell people about that?

Yeah, so that was an experiment done with a slime mold, which is, it can act like, so it's not a, fungus per se, but it can act like a mycelial network in the way that it grows. And they built a model of the Tokyo subway system. Well, they, yeah, with, with the stations all around. And then they put bits of grain in the different stations as food. And then they placed the slime mold in the middle and the slime mold figured out the most efficient way to find the food. And so then the path that the slime mold made was then used as the model. to make the Tokyo Subway system.

So I think these ways of looking at mycelium, mycelium, mycelium interconnectedness, whether it comes to modeling physical systems or modeling organizational systems in the workplace or just say even in your relationships and your family, you know, coming together. What do we need? Let's have a thing. Let's not just be in this like, like, top-down didactic way of, oh, I'm telling you, this is what, you know, and a lot of families are like that, the dad or whoever, I'm telling you this, this is how it goes. And, and actually,

if, you know, you asked a mushroom, how would a family work? I'd say, well, you know, we'd see what people's strengths are and where they might be able to offer some input and we then would figure out the best course of action for everyone. And often, you know, in a business relationship, in family relationships, you know, in our intimate relationships, it's not always, the best solution for everyone. It's often, you know, people think compromising means that someone has to lose out. Or it's like, well, we do your, you know, you're going to feel bad, but I'm going to feel good. And therefore that evens out.

And it's like, how about we find a way where we can both benefit from this situation? How about we can find a way that's win-win? There really is that out there. And I think people have mistakenly thought that they need to get one over on people. you know, that's people like Donald Trump, you know, he doesn't operate from this mycelial mindset. He is, you know, making sure that in order for something to be good, someone else has to lose out. So, and I don't think mushrooms think that way. I think mushrooms genuinely think, what is the job that needs to be done? Okay, is there, I don't know, has there been a forest fire?

Brilliant. Okay, we'll come and clean up all the ash. Has there been a radiation spill? Brilliant. We'll come clear up the radiation. Is there loads of shit? They're dead animals. Are there all these things that need processing? Brilliant. We'll get on board. We'll, you know, help to create accessible nutrients for trees so that they can grow. And then in doing so, the trees are giving us, you know, these essential carbohydrates

that we're going to then use to make enzymes to make sure that we're not getting eaten. So it's like there's this relationship, which is win-win. And, you know, nature can be harsh and brutal. but I don't think, you know, from my understanding of mushrooms, when you have competing species, they don't try and out-compete each other. They try to see where the resources can be directed. And I think the more in which we think about this stuff, you know, my partner, she works for a non-hierarchical organization.

It's a charity which provides resources for lots of different community groups in Brighton, all the different community groups are supported by this charity. And when they do things, when they decide things, it takes a long time, you know, and it can get frustrating. But they always come to the right decision because the right decision is always inevitably what is going to benefit everyone and where people aren't going to lose out in a way which is going to affect them to the point where they can't carry on, you know, So, you know, I've been talking to some people about, hey, are there ways to create courses for people in high pressure environments where you look at these principles of mycelu interconnectedness and run workshops. And, you know, there's difficulties of people engaging with people from different countries. You know, you might have different ways of talking about things or thinking about things. And you're trying to do a business deal or something or you're trying to create something. Or you're trying to create. some art or you're trying to do something which you know requires collaboration writing a paper presenting something could you create some sort of mycelial interface which allows you to think in a way where you've got mycelial protocols which allow you to then come to the most

efficient way of going about something yeah it's brilliant i i feel like there's so much we can learn by sitting at a battered coastline or checking out the environment around us on some level. And we just forget how much the world or nature is trying to speak to us. And maybe that's because we're distracted or whatever. But I'm really hopeful, man. And I think psychedelics really open you up to that kind of language. They open you up to learning from the environment around you instead of an authority figure who may or may not have your best. ideals in mind.

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, that is the beauty of psychedelics, is the empowerment, is that, yeah, that knowing, you know, I've had what I perceive to be direct communication with magic mushrooms. And that doesn't, doesn't feel psychotic. It doesn't, it hasn't, those experiences haven't led me to do anything dangerous, if anything that those types of communications have allowed me to really do the work on myself because then I'm open.

So it's like I, you know, respecting the authority of the mushrooms, deferring, giving yourself over to the mushrooms to that experience is for me where that healing happens. So, you know, one of the, I would say, most highly regarded mushroom masters who's sadly no longer with us, Baba Kalindi E, who was a proponent of the really high dose experiences, talking 20 to 30 plus dried grams. He often said, you know, the mushroom is the shaman, the therapist, is the set and setting is the hymns, is the songs, is all of this stuff in Camphor. in one and actually, you know, engaging with that stuff. Okay, you know, he was quite out there with the doses he was talking about. But I do think those principles are true. Like there is something of, you could call it, an ancestral birthright, with these plants

and fungi where, yeah, I know what this is about because I'm a human and I'm connected to this web of consciousness. and nature and I don't necessarily need someone else. It's not to say that I won't ever need someone else. I've engaged, you know, I've had experiences of guided ceremonies that have been really beautiful and amazing. But I think a lot of that work that we can do can come from

establishing that personal relationship. Yeah, I would, you know, I've been paying a lot to like the decentralized science that's kind of going on. and as my map comes down behind us. And it makes me curious about different experiments. Like there seems to be a lot of experiments with trauma and helping out, you know, people with different doses.

But I would love to see some experiments with like huge doses, like 30, you know, 30 grams or 35 grams or 28 grams. Like I think that there's some, that would be fascinating to see the research come out of that. But I guess there's there's too much liability. involved is something like that. Are you aware of any studies like that that have happened or not like that? Possibly with that I don't know what kind of state you're in with 20 to 30 dried grams whether someone that would actually be able to even do an experiment. I know there's been some work with the prolonged DMT states the DMT X haven't necessarily seen a lot of concrete stuff to come of that. I think it might be quite difficult to do experiments with people under these states.

I think it's going to be that real psychonautical exploration, relying on. Yeah, I mean, maybe we'll get to that point where we have the technology and the media. to be able to understand what's going on with someone in that state. And I think possibly, you know, some of the people that are working with DMT are getting their people like Andrew Gallimore with his DMT studies. Maybe he is getting to that point where, you know, when I spoke to Kalindi-E and I said, is this state of the 20 to 30 dried grams? Is that essentially like a DMT state, he said, yes, it's kind of indistinguishable from the

DMT realm, except you are in there for a longer period of time. And so, yeah, maybe there is some promise with those experiments that they're doing. Yeah, I'd be interested to see what not necessarily, like I'd be interested to see at all. The peak of it, I would love to hear people try and tell me what happens at that peak. And anyone that's out there that's done that, I've talked to Adam, Adam Tapp had a really huge experience on over 25 grams that we spoke about. But I think the, the after, the, the philosophical stage, the after, the, you know, hour four, hour five, where you're sort of kind of coming back, you know, down the road back to home a little bit, you know, it would be interesting to see, and I bet you can measure the neuroplasticity on some level, whether it's

through UKG or something like that. But I think that's probably where the real healing is done. Like those huge doses, they got to have a radical effect on connectivity. They have to have a radical effect on conceptualization and ideas. And, you know, if we can agree that a microdose is brightening the colors, you know, what is the long-term potentiation or what is the long-term ramifications of like a 30-gram dose? Like, it's got to be stellar on some level. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think it does, I think it does radically shift people, you know, the people that I know that have done, you know, even the, we're talking kind of seven plus dried grams. around that seven to ten dry realms. You know, people that are getting into those realms, they are talking in terms of ancestral wisdom, knowledge about the origins of humanity, engaging with these myths and legends that, you know, might have some testament to where we come from.

It seems to be that, these doses are going further than the psychotherapeutic, the healing aspect. I, you know, it seems like there's a different order going on. There's something to do with engaging in the nature of reality and understanding things like the death process and becoming better equipped to go through that process of death and potentially rebirth. And I think there is stuff with the mushrooms, which is a lot greater than our trauma and our healing.

Whilst all that stuff is really valid and really important, and we can get a lot done, I think, you know, I've had experiences where it's like four dry grams of Semilanziata, the Liberty Cap, so quite strong. Yeah. And I had really, you know, an amazing cathartic experience. But I had the very clear message of, okay, you've had the healing.

Now's the time for the lesson. Yeah. I was like, ah, okay. So they're, and, you know, at that point I sat up, I grabbed a pen. I started writing down what was coming in, you know, the download. I was like, okay, this is about, you know, and I've had a lot of experiences where the mushrooms are like, let us show you this alien world. Let us show you where we're from.

Let us show you where you're from. you're from. I'm like, oh, holy fucking. And I'm literally out loud going, oh, shit. Fuck. Okay. And it's like really, it's like I'm watching a documentary, but it's really, it's not just someone's telling me about it. It's like, hey, buddy, this is what it's about. And you're like, oh my God, of course. You know, I had that four gram experience. It was like, it was so funny. It was like a radio host came on and was like, ah, welcome back, welcome, well, we've missed you. Well done for tuning back into, you know,

the right station. Where have you been? I was like, oh, I'm out like, oh, shit. This is, this is the origins. This is like where, you know, and I don't know, you know, you can go into some real rabbit holes with all of this and go down the Graham Hancock route and all of that stuff.

But it's like you speak to some cultures, you speak to the dogon, tribes, you know, people with DNA that's like, you know, the pygmy people, the stuff that Darren LeBaron talks about, where people with DNA that's 150,000 years old, the longest, you know, measurable DNA in the world. And then you ask them, okay, so where did you come from? And they go, oh, we come from serious, you know. Yeah. And it's very clear, you know, and there's a lot of these cultures. It's like, yeah, yeah, we didn't originally come from here. And, you know, I've had that with interestingly just those

Liberty caps I don't I don't really get it with other species of mushroom so there's something going on with like the biochemistry of particular mushrooms which are unlocking this extraterrestrial side to to the experience where I've consistently had extraterrestrial experiences with Semelanciata you know quite astoundingly so yeah it's it's

it's incredible to try to explain to people about talking to an alien or hearing a voice, you know, or being in contact with something that you can't describe. But it's a real, it's a real thing. Like you can, and we can argue what it is that we're talking to, you know,

is it your higher self? Is it a non-local consciousness? You know, what we choose to label it as is kind of irrelevant. You know, it's it seems to me, but it's there. And there's real knowledge that comes. There's real ideas that are uncovered. And it's just, it's so amazing to think about how on some level,

incoherence can breed such clarity. Like those things like, you don't think they would go together. It's crazy to me. Well, it shakes it up, doesn't it? Yes. You know, what you, you know, we read about with the, the mechanisms of action, the default mode network, you know, this, this network in your brain, which is keeping, you know, your consensus reality together. And then you take some magic mushrooms and it destabilizes that and knocks it out and then all this stuff starts to flood in.

And okay, you've shaken things up. You've created some, some chaos. but actually in that chaos you realize ah okay there really is this filtering valve that goes on to make sure that we don't get eaten by saber tooth tigers or whatever it is

you know as our brains still set on whenever it was so we've still got these systems in place to keep us really safe but in doing so they you know, they potentially limit us to to these revelatory experiences and actually in knocking that out and allowing the things to flood in.

You know, I've read, I'm pretty sure I've read something that says we, our brains get hit with 18 million bits of information every second and we can only consciously process 18 bits. So we're only consciously aware of a millionth of all the sensory input. So what does that mean? Like does that mean that, hey, if we take some DMT or some mushrooms, do we then suddenly become aware of all the other stuff that's going on? Is there something that happens to the architectural structure of our brains that then allows us to be more susceptible?

susceptible to that stuff coming in. It's like we've primed our system to then be able to interface with the wider stream of data that's out there. It makes so much sense when you say it like that. When we start talking about the architecture of the brain and concepts like the default mode network, like that sounds to me like what we're running on as a species. Like look at our governments, look at our corporation, look at our ideas. Like, that's the default mode. Yeah, yeah. It's like the easy level.

This is a default. Like, let's, what else is there? Okay, well, let's get off the default mode network. Let's take this sort of ally that will help us get off the default mode network. And like, it just speaks to the idea of creativity. Like, no wonder so much creativity comes from psychedelics. You're getting out of the default mode network. No matter you're so upset when you come back to it, like, damn it, I didn't want to come back

the default mode network. Okay, well, you've got to do the work to create this thing that we showed you that is possible. Like, it just seems like real-time evolution. When you start looking at the language, looking at the creativity, looking at the work, whatever that means for the individuals. And man, it's so fascinating just to see the way all these things line up and to see the trajectory. Like, yeah, we should be off the default mode network. Like that, that's good for, if you want to default to the world of,

mediocrity. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, in doing so, we can engage with the neuroplasticity and the creativity and the stuff that is helping us to flourish and be the best version of ourselves. Yeah, it seems so true. Like, if you can sort of harness the intention, and I think people can, I've done it, I bet you have done it.

If you want to be better at something, psychedelics can help you achieve it. You have to come off the default mode network. Take your psychedelics, have your intention, and it can't be once. It's got to be a routine. I would recommend going with big doses followed up by microdoses. I recommend if you want to get really good at something, whatever it is, write it down, study it. Take a light seven, like a 7.2. Boom.

Take it, enjoy it, and then follow that up with like once a week microdose or twice a week microdose for the next month. And then another big dose. keep a journal and find out, write down the insight that you've had, write down all that stuff, and you will see the progression, not be linear, but be exponential. I've done it in my life. And I don't know that there's a protocol for it. I mean, I should write that down and George Monty protocol.

The true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not? Why not? Everyone have their own protocols, community protocols. Why not? Yeah, yeah. It's a GitHub for psychedelics.

Yeah, yeah. Amazing. This is so much fun, man. It's been great. I enjoyed every second of this, man. And I feel like we've already scratched the surface. So let's keep up the connection. And, you know, it'd be great to meet in person one day.

If you're ever over in the UK or I'm over in the US, it would be awesome to me. Yeah. And we still got, we'll talk more offline. I'd love to do that. Before I let you go, though, man, can you please share anything? You've got gigs coming up. You've got some music with your band members. Yeah.

And you shout out to Kodak Seraphini. My absolute, you know, my musical family, my adopted family, I just absolutely love them. Some of the most talented individuals that I could ever possibly hope to play with. So it's a real honor and joy. We have our, we're in the process of writing our second studio album, which we're recording in April. So fingers crossed, that will be out in the summer, maybe sort of June, July. Before that, we're going on a little tour with an awesome band who we love called K-U-L-K. They're a heavy band from the UK.

And we're doing some shows with them. We've got a little mini festival coming up in the beginning of March, end of March. end of March we're playing something called the karma weekender with it's sort of very like psychedelic minded so that's fun and then the other shows that we're playing are more on the kind of heavy side of things so it's good we like to traverse these two subcultures and yeah that's we've got a really exciting festival coming up in october we're playing a jazz festival in poland jazz jantar or jazz yantar i don't know how they say it but that's that's really exciting that was sort of a i guess a bit um surprising to us uh but it was someone who'd reviewed our album a while ago

for their magazine and then he's involved in this festival and yeah it's great to be thought of in the the jazz circles as well i don't know how that's going to go down but i think it would be be quite fun i play I play saxophone. So for me, like, I love jazz. I love all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, engaging in more of those kind of stylistic style of things. Potentially, I'm speaking at breaking convention in April. I'm waiting to hear back about my submission.

So fingers crossed. And yeah, that should be an exciting event. And just carrying on with more mushroom stuff, collaborating with people in the fungi world, doing things on the education side of things, trying to set up a space locally for people. So, yeah, lots of interesting stuff. But yeah, creative-wise is definitely where the energy is.

To everybody within the sound of my voice, go down, check out the show notes, check out everything all he's into. He is an incredible creative individual and true to the form of mycelium. He's branching out into so many directions and they're all fascinating and interesting, man. So go down, reach out to him.

He's available for gigs and talks and check out the band. I'm going to be talking to a lot more often. Hopefully we'll have some bigger discussions. So you know what, before I let you go, can you give, like, where can people find you? Like, what is the name of the site for the band? What is the name of the site for you? Like, where's the best place to find the things you're doing? So if you go to Link Tree forward slash Codex Seraphini, that's for the band.

And then you can, again, link tree forward slash Olly Genbash. It's got all my links. Videos, articles, all different kinds of things. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. Yeah. All right, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here. I hope you have a beautiful day. I hope you decide to do whatever is necessary to become the very best version of yourself.

And when you do, the world will thank you. And thanks so much for listening today, everybody. I hope you have a beautiful day. Aloha. And hang out briefly afterwards, Ollie, but to everybody else. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, thanks, you're watching.