TrueLife - Patrick McConnell - Wellness, Creativity, Psychedelics

Episode Date: April 8, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://linktr.ee/adjustablenormalIn a world with limitless possibilities the only thing holding you back is your lack of imagination. The world is waiting for you to embrace her! What are you waiting for!?Today we talk to Patrick McConnell about his decision to embark on the hero’s journey. A Canadian living in Peru. Former tree planter and farmer. Lifelong learner and adventure. What was it, that called him to leave the world he grew up in & adventure off to a new land? What has he learned? About himself? His home? The world? One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful good Friday. I hope the week has been well. Hope the sun is shining. The birds are singing.

The wind is at your back. Got a great show for you today, the one and only. Patrick McConnell, everybody. He's a freelance writer, an explorer, an adventurer, a lover of life's mysteries, and he's coming to us from the Sacred Valley of Peru. As a writer, you may have seen some of his work. He's written from everybody from Syfront, Trip Sitter, Medium, Well of Fresh Minds, Fungi Academy, Double Blind Mac.

If you've read anything lately about psychedelics, I'm sure that you've come across this article in all these different platforms. But Patrick, I'm super stoked to have. have you here today. How you doing, my friend? I'm great. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me, George. Yeah, man, I'm excited. I guess, you know, we've got a bit of a bio on you, but how does one end up in the Sacred Valley of Peru? Like, how did you get down there, man? What's going on? Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it was never the plan. I can tell you that. Like, my wife and I, we found ourselves in Latin America during COVID and just stayed. We just stayed down here. We were just traveling to Peru.

We were looking around, figuring out where we'd like to maybe put down roots, but mostly basically just exploring. And as one might expect, we drank ayahuasca. And it's funny because like, oh, so my wife when we got here, she cannot, like it's pretty cold. We're 3,000 meters. We arrived in Kusco, and we'd just been in Nicaragua on like a tropical island. So she was freaking out. Like she did not want to be here. She did not want it in any way.

So we were not having the best time, to be honest. It was a little challenging. We go to drink ayahuasca. We're like, well, we're here. We might as well go do the medicine. And at the end of the ceremony, she turns to me and she's like, I saw myself living in Peru. And I turned to her and like, I saw the exact same thing. Whoa.

Yeah, we saw ourselves living in this beautiful, like, adobe house in the mountains. And like, so crazier part is I was in the Sacred Valley five years previous. And in my very first ayahuasca ceremony, I saw myself living in PSAC. And I had just started dating my wife then. And I was like, oh, no, like, that's impossible. That will never, ever happen. I just, like, put it aside because I knew she would never do it. But, you know, lo and behold, we came here.

And after one ceremony, yeah, we both kind of saw the same thing. And then things just kind of started aligning, you know, like we found the right place, started connecting with people. Work started to really just, yeah, work out for us here. So yeah, it was kind of, it just sort of happens, to be honest. And you could say ayahuasca made it happen for sure. You know, it's so beautiful to see the way life unfolds when you listen to, when you just listen. You know, there seems to be something that is pulling you or pushing you in a direction that wants you to unfold a certain way.

I heard a quote once that was the things that you're interested in are interested in you. And it sounds like that's kind of what's going on down there. man yeah i love that i love that no because we we both work in psychedelics and like i was already writing about it and pretty deep into this kind of kind of world and we we we just found ourselves in a place where it's completely open you know like you go to the cafe and it's normal to talk about your iwaska experience that's what everybody's doing so there's no stigma there's no weirdness about it like people they get it if you will you know you don't have to like explain to your grandma like oh i'm drinking this jungle medicine it's interesting so

So what, let me ask you this. Like, you've written a lot of different articles. And while they, they are sort of satellites around psychedelics, like, they all have their own flavor to them. What is it, how do you get inspired to write them? Like, do you come across something that just interests you or is something introduced to you or is it a friend that has a thing? Or how do you begin the writing process?

What's that look like for you? You know, it's a little of both. Honestly, a lot of it is just like, hey, like we want this because Google wants this, you know, like the SEO says you should do this. So, you know, some of it's that. But for some of the publications, yeah, I just get to pitch things. Like, I mean, I just spend a lot of time reading about it. Reading the science actually is surprisingly inspiring, you know, like there's just like a lot of really cool ideas in there. Talking to people here, getting exposed to different plants, different traditions.

So it's kind of just whatever, yeah, whatever comes alive and, and. you know, what people, what I think people will resonate with. You know, when I'm trying to write something, I definitely, like, there's a lot of psychedelic content now. So I try to write something that at least has like a little bit of a section that maybe is saying something a little bit new or different or at least a different take. Like it's important to have that little, like, creative spark in there as opposed to just recycling.

Yeah. One of my favorite ones was the article on the microbiome. You know, you don't see a whole lot of people talking about that. Can you share, can you maybe share with the audience for those who make. may have not been able to read it in detail or got to see it, like maybe a little snapsis of what that is and how it came to be. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that is a complex topic.

Like, that article is a summary of some, some heady, like, complicated stuff. It's like a whole universe down there. Like literally the numbers of, you know, fluoride in our gut is in the trillions. But what's interesting is so there's like this entire ecosystem in the gut. And then when we introduce psychedelics, psychedelics are working on serotonin receptors. And I wish I could remember the stat off top, but it's, you know, some large percentage of our serotonian receptors are actually in the gut. So that got people thinking of like, oh, my goodness, like, how is this affecting the gut microbiome? So when they started digging into this, like they haven't actually done the research.

It's actually mostly theoretical at this point. But there's some ideas suggesting that there could be different microbes are being affected, of course, by the psychedelic, but then the microbes are affecting the way that the psychedelic is metabolical. and changing how it would work within the body. And then there's kind of like a cascade of all of these like very complicated chemical reactions that I cannot summarize for you. But yeah, it's a there's a few of the researchers that I've talked to over the course of interviewing people. Like people really want to do the research, but it's very expensive. It's really expensive to take all these like poop samples and like analyze for all these different microcokes because there's so many of them too to untangle this like like it's a mind boggling web.

Like it's a whole other ecosystem. You can imagine all of the different interactions and systems and stuff inter-enroven. It's pretty amazing. It is amazing. You know, and there's so much language around the idea of, like, you know, growing up, I always heard, oh, go with your gut or follow your heart, you know. Like, there's so much that goes into this idea of psychedelics that we've only scratched the surface on.

And it would be interesting. Like, we see these brain maps and what's happening with neuroplasticity and connectivity. But like what also has happened in the gut? I mean, is there's neurotransmitters down there too, right? Like, I mean, what? It's so fascinating to think about. One of the things that really connected me to this article was, I think right when it came out, I had seen it. I was actually lucky enough to be on a call where Dennis McKenna was given a speech and he took questions afterward. And I had asked him, I'm like, hey, have you seen some of this new research? And what do you think about psychedelics in the gut. And he was like, it's a great question and I don't know,

but it's fascinating. And so in a weird way, like I got to see your article and then talk to him. And so you guys are like forever connected for me. It's such a fascinating concept, man. Thank you. I appreciate that association. He's a legend. We'd love to ask him that question as well. Yeah. Is there like a favorite article that you have written a little bit that over the last, you know, year or year and a half that was special to your heart? Yeah, so probably the most recent one in, or a couple ago in double-blind, about Mapacho, so like sacred tobacco. It's just, you know, like, ever since, like, I first discovered tobacco when I was, like,

very, very young, like, stole grandma's cigarette. But it was like my first, like, altered state, if you will. But it really affected me. I was like, whoa, like, you can take plants and feel different. And, you know, I was always just really interested in tobacco and I've always had a strong connection with it. I always really liked it, even though, you know, it's like, it kills people. Like, I'm not saying it doesn't do that. But then getting connected to how they use it down here in ceremony, I don't know, kind of just like some, in a weird way put my own fascination with it in perspective, you know, that it was sacred, that you can use it as a prayer and like consume it consciously as opposed to, you know, like the habitual thing, which which I admittedly did.

did as well. And then just learning a lot about, yeah, like tobacco people who worked like almost exclusively with tobacco drinking it and then like the spirit of the plant and like how they would interpret that and trying to try to unpack that with people. It was just this really amazing experience down here of like really starting to connect to people who were experiencing plants in a way that I didn't really ever understand until I started to really, yeah, just dig into it. And, yeah, concepts like using tobacco to amplify intent, you know, like that that's like one of the things that the plant could do.

So when you would pray with it, then it's like you're putting your intentions into that act of consuming it, but it's also like, yeah, it's just adds this multidimensional thing where I was like, oh, maybe I can use tobacco, but I just have to be like, you know, very careful about it and treat it in a really special way. Yeah, you know, it seems that at least myself and probably a few of the people I know, and Maybe in the West even, we see tobacco in like a very shallow light where it's just like, oh, it's in cigarettes or we know that it works like nicotine works on the nicotide receptors or something like that. But you would mention that there's a tea or something.

People drink, they can actually drink from the plant? What does that look like? Yeah, so I haven't done that. I would love to actually. I'm very curious about it. But it sounds, well, from my friends and from the tobacco, I was interviewed, it's not necessarily pleasant. Like tobacco, like nicotine is like, it's pretty toxic to be honest. Oh, it don't get you.

Yeah, oh, for sure. And like, you know, like a lot of plants, like, it's in the dose. So if you drink too much of it, like, it'll kill you. So it's something that they really, they study for quite a while and learn how to do very carefully. And it's obviously like a pretty powerful purgative. Like there's a lot of cleaning going on. And yeah, like, again, like I don't want to speak too much of it because I haven't actually done it. But they drink it.

It's very cleaning. It's a plant that is said to connect people to other plants. So people will do it in plant diettas and they'll drink tobacco and often be working with one or multiple other plants along with these tobacco. Those who are guiding them through the process. Yeah. Yeah, I grow some. And the beautiful thing about Hawaii, well, there's a laundry list of beautiful things about Hawaii. But one of the things that I really enjoy is that the soil is so fertile and you can grow almost anything.

And so I had bought some tobacco plants and I put them out of my yard and I was out there just kind of like checking out the little yellow flowers on them and stuff and just walking through them like the leaves had rubbed on my skin. And like within 15 minutes, I was like, I feel like, whoa. And I started feeling sick. And I'm like, what is going on? And I looked it up and it's a common thing. Like if you are new to tobacco or, you know, and you're out in a field of them or I didn't really have a field. I had like six or seven plants. but I was, you know, having them rub up against my skin, it'll get right into your skin, man.

It's no joke. It's strong stuff. It's really strong stuff. I've also grown it as well. Yeah, it's no joke. It's an amazing plant, though. Like, I think that's one of the reasons it has such a place in, like, shamanism here. And, you know, all, like, all through the Americas, like, it's a very powerful plant that has

influenced a lot of people. You can use it for altered perceptions. Like, you know, it managed to travel around the world. It's like, I like to say it's one of the most successful plants ever. Yeah, absolutely. And it's probably responsible for an incredible amount of profound change from writers to thinkers to architects to sports players. You know, I mean, it has found its way into the human story across the world. And like that's a, you know, I want to stay there for a minute. Because when I think about plants finding their way into the human story, I think of language. And there's some very interesting ideas. that have come out of South America from some of the different ethnobotanists that have gone down to study. And one of the stories I've heard was that a gentleman goes down. I think it was Jeremy Narby who wrote a book about the serpent.

Yeah, phenomenal, right? And in that book, he told a story about going and meeting with a group of indigenous people in South America. And they were talking about, oh, we talked to the plants. And half of the people are like, these guys are nuts. and they left. But like the one guy that stayed, Jeremy and like another guy stayed, and the tribe was like, they were kind of offended. Like, what are these dummies?

How come they left, you know? And he explained to them. He's like, well, you know, people don't get it. But the story he gave about talking to the plants, the, one of the elders in the tribe, it said, look, here's how we talk to them. It's not like they're coming up and speak in English or speaking in this. But here's the most venomous snake in the jungle. And they showed a picture or they showed this guy, this green snake with two white dots on its head.

And he goes, here's this plant over here. Can you see the shape of the leaf is the exact same shape as the snake's head? And there's two white diamonds right where the snake is. That's clearly the antidote to the venom. And I remember reading that and just being like, just so blown away. Like, yeah, plants do talk to us. If you're willing to look, have an open mind and maybe not have such a short-sighted idea of what language is supposed to be, but maybe what it can be. Have you come into contact with some things down there of that nature about plants and communication?

indigenous people. What do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I've been interested in plant intelligence and plant communication for a long time, actually, before I got into Ayahuasca and stuff. There's this amazing author called Stephen Herod Buner. He's a herbalist, and he did a lot of work with, like, heart perception, like, sort of like, you know, perception that's not from the mind. And, you know, he's just like a wizard of plants as well. So he got me onto this, like, idea of, like, oh, like plants. you can perceive plants, but you can't use your brain.

So I was like, this is cool. I'm listening. I'm listening. I don't think I can do it, but I'm listening. But then here doing a, so I've only done one plant, plant deeta, like the restricted diet and then working with one plant for some time while drinking ayahuasca. But I encountered boven sauna. And, you know, I was given all of these ideas of what it would be like, like this beautiful Amazonian mermaid and like it's going to like it's water energy. and my emotions are going to move and all this stuff.

And I was like, yeah, like, okay, like this sounds like something I need. And I was actually, I was blown away by how strong it was, by how powerful the sense of something else that was not me being there and being in contact with me, particularly when I would, so like in a DETA, there's like a really restrictive diet and you're in solitude, and you're just drinking this one plant every day. And then you do a few ayahuasca ceremonies throughout. So when I did my first ayahuasca ceremony after drinking this plant for a few days, I was like, it was just like it was there.

Like it was this like energy. It was this like I called it like a pixie like a fairy, I don't know like pink blue purpley thing for me. It's like I could see it moving around me and interact with it. And it was just like you know like I like I spent a lot of time writing and like analyzing and like I could tell you all these things like oh it's like my expectations and my brain created the hallucin. that they told me I'd have and like all this stuff but you know what like like nothing can change it was like really it was a really profound experience extremely extremely surprising to me because I like to think I'm pretty skeptical but also pretty open and like it just it floored me I'm very excited to do it again when I have time to get away but I really do I remain extremely open to that

there is something going on with the shamans and the plants that like we just we don't understand that we don't have a language for that because we don't have a rational explanation. We just have a really hard time from like forming that this is like a thing that they do. So yeah, I remain open. Very open. It's so fascinating. Now, what was that particular set of rituals called like where you drink that and you have you have this restrictive diet, you drink to ayahuasca and you also have that other plan? What's that whole thing called again? It's a dietta. Dieta. And that is working with ayahuasca and another type of plant in particular.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that's, that's, they say that's how like the, you know, the, the, the ayahuascaros have learned how to work with the plants. Like, if they're, if you ask them how, it's like, oh, we learn from the plants. And the restrictive diet, yeah, it's supposed to increase your sensitivity, um, eliminate distractions, clean the body. And then these other plants, because like you were saying, Jeremy Narby's book, like, each plant, like, has all these different characteristics, a personality, a spirit. And then in this, like, open receptive state with ayahuasca and a restrictive, all kinds of things, like no sex either, no media, then, yeah, it builds the sensitivity and can be

a little bit more aware of some other stuff, it seems. Again, I'm not, like, super experienced with diettas. Like, you could talk to some people who've done a lot of them here. There's a lot in my community who are very deep on that path. but yeah it's it's um that there's definitely something to it i was not quite the same afterwards do you think that like much like books in a library and each one has its story that if you were to do the dietta with different plants like the different plants are almost like books in a library and they all have a spirit or they all have a stream not all the plants but like there's probably

a library of them right yeah i think there's a library of of sort of more powerful say like master plants for example. And yeah, that they, like, my understanding is that every plant has a spirit. And I think that even other things like stones or like metal, whatever, like all of these other materials and just things have like a spirit or like a vibration or an energy to them that can be learned from. Like there's stories of, there's stories of Vegetalesas, like people studying in the jungle, drinking gasoline, like doing only gasoline because it has a spirit.

And they would drink like tiny amounts of every day to absorb. I couldn't tell you, but something from it, something. It's fascinating to me to think that there's how big the world is and how many of us just get trapped in our own little bubble. You know, we, it's so giant out there. And so many of us live in our heads and live in this small little area. And we're happy to do it. There's nothing wrong with it. But I really wish people would be willing to take chances.

that could have profound, you know, could have profound consequences in their life. And I don't mean consequences as a pejorative, but consequences that are good, you know, that can change you and can help you grow. And it's beautiful. You know, you also had put down a lot of people in the community talk about San Pedro. You recently read an article about a beginner's guide to San Pedro. What's that look like? Yeah, so San Pedro, I'm pretty new to it, actually.

So I'm just a beginner as well. Me too. But yeah, no, it's, you know, different plant, different energy. I'm very infatuated with it, actually. I'm working on some more stuff on it now as well. San Pedro, like, I found it to be just this, like, incredibly grounding. Like, it made me so present. And, you know, people are always like, oh, it's heart medicine.

It's heart medicine. It's heart medicine. I'm like, okay, cool. Like, I'm going to feel good. I'm going to feel love or something. And it's like, no, it's like something else. It's really hard to put into words. But I was just a very present, very able.

to just like perceive and connect with like where I was and who was around and yeah just brought me into this really beautiful headspace and it's a really long trip and um I just found it a lot gentler than something like ayahuasca which which is good like for me like like ayahuasca is pretty intense I don't want to do that on the regularly regular like personally um so yeah yeah getting very interested in that one um with active ingredient is mescaline and yeah there's I'm I'm actually learning it's the plant is being overharvested. And it's interesting because it's been called like a sustainable psychedelic. It's been called, you know, like sort of like peyote, for example, as being over harvested.

It's also masculine, another sacred cacti. But here, it's just sort of like one of those things. Like we're just like, oh, it's like all through the mountains here. Like it's kind of unlimited. And it's really not the case. It's really not the case. You know, I've always found an interesting relationship between right. and speaking, and it seems like when you're able to write,

it somehow affects your ability to speak. And the better you can put your, at least for me, the more I can put my thoughts down in a way that is coherent and maybe has some ionic potameter, whatever. You can put them these weird, you can put these forms down on paper. It helps you to speak. But then you add in psychedelics,

and it seems to shift the way in which you're able to communicate. Have you, first, I got two questions. The one is, have you found that relationship between language, writing, and psychedelics to be something that has affected you? And if so, have you found that different psychedelics allow you to express yourself in words in different ways? Yeah, wow, that's a great question. It makes me think of San Pedro immediately, actually. Because I found I could communicate on it, which was very exciting to me. Right.

Like I went to one of the ceremonies actually for that article. Alonzo de Rio, who's, you know, he's been working here for a long time. Actually, I would recommend looking him up on Spotify. Incredible musician. He's really got some bangers in the medicine music space. You may have heard his music if you listen to that kind of music. But, yeah, like, so a big part of that ceremony was communication. We went through all of these different stages, all of these different altars with different, like, symbolism and mythology and elements behind them.

and we would speak from this place to the group offering prayers to the fire. Well, like, you know, like, we're pretty, I guess, high on the medicine. But, like, coming from that space, it's just like I could get into this flow. Like, I'm not really like a prayers guy. Like, I'm not super ceremonial. Like, I can get into it when it's happening. But, but, you know, when I'm on the medicine and everyone else is doing it, I was able to just really tap into this other, this other space, this other way of communicating,

which, yeah, it turned to be very, very beautiful. And to answer the first part, like, yeah, I do think it has changed. It's changed the way I've expressed myself completely. Like, when I first did psychedelics, like, as a teenager, I was more a visual artist then, but I just, like, it changed everything like in a night. I just, like, could draw different shapes and perspectives and do things in, like, a completely different way. And, like, yeah, Terence McKenna talking about it, too, just, like, being a machine of, like, using psilocybin and stuff to just get place.

with language that, you know, that a lot of us still can't. Yeah. Yeah, that's, talk about someone who had a firm grasp on the idea of what language is. Like, it's, it's, it's music, the way that guy talks and the way he could get across ideas, which brings me to this idea that I've been thinking about lately. Is it possible? And I just want to, I'm just throwing this out here. There's no right or wrong answer.

But as someone who's a writer who has experienced different types, of medicines and altered states of consciousness. You know, it's not uncommon for someone at the height of a psychedelic experience to see either open eye or closed eye abstract geometrical images, usually three dimensions. It seems to me that that in itself is a coding pattern or a form of language or at least gives you a different perspective than you never would before. And I'm wondering if, if I guess this is another two-part question. I'll throw it out here.

I'm wondering if why, the first part of the question is, do you think that we in the West have somehow put language and verbal acuity ahead of mental imagery? That's the first part of the question. And the second part of the question is, how do you think we can integrate abstract geometrical images into our behavior? Like, will it transmit into language? Can we interpret it into language? I know it's not a perfectly formed question, but I'll throw it out there to you and see what you got.

Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting question. People, I've encountered quite a few people in the medicine space, I guess, that talk about, like, the codes. Yeah, what is that? Right, what is that? And to be honest, like, I'm not going to be able to give you a great answer. but you know I do I mean I guess I kind of just resonate with the idea

that there's really something there that there is some sort of like energy or resonance or some kind of communication that can be done through through symbols is how I think about it like it makes me think about no youngian psychologist but like Carl Young you know like all the symbols like in the subconscious

that like all these different archetypes and these things they can be communicated and yet it's entirely possible there's something there with geometry like geometry is just such a it's kind of an all-pervading pattern throughout life and and you know why wouldn't it be part of these other medicines that come from the same place it's it's a strange one because like if the codes if the codes are doing something for us I don't really know if we can as Terrence kind of says like English it I don't really know how to do that right but I've had the experience of like seeing or even like more like

feeling like seeing but feeling like this like resonance or something for example on ayahuasca with like wildly complex geometry that is it's beautiful but it's just like there's something else going on there that that again i'm not really going to be able to to give you a logical rational anything about it yeah i think it's i think it's a more perfect logos in a way you know when you stare at these geometrical images it really gives you a better understanding of relationships. Like if you take a tesseract, for example, there's all these, you know, you're like,

you're staring at it and trying to figure it out. But as you're analyzing this geometric image, I am subconsciously thinking about like, oh, maybe that's why my wife and my daughter think this thing. You know, it's like, it's like for some way you're able to turn the entire situation around, the same way that that geometrical image at the height of a psychedelic experience moves in different ways.

So to, at least in my opinion, opinion, are you getting a new perspective of how to think of your thoughts? And that's what I'm thinking when I see those images as a coding pattern or a way to interpret relationships in a way I've never done before. And I'm glad you brought up young because there's another quote from Krishna-Murdy that I think kind of nails this. And it says, in one self lies the whole world. And if you know how to look and learn, then the door is there and the key is in your hand. nobody in earth can give you either that key or the door to open except yourself you know and it's it's you can't english it but that's pretty close yeah it's pretty good it's pretty good for sure i really like what you said about the uh it's like i'm thinking it's

like you can get metaphorical with it about relationships and how things are interconnected and related to each other like like our brain will do something with it but i don't think that's the whole thing i guess right what i would say but like it definitely can derive so much meaning from, yeah, from what these images, yeah, they represent, like, like, the complexity of life and, like, how things are structured or how things relate. Like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the idea of learning. It calls into question the idea of education. It calls into question the idea of going to a school when perhaps everything is available to everybody if you could kind of plug into it. And maybe what I take away from those geometric images about relationships,

someone can see that exact same thing and have a different kind of an idea. Maybe it teaches them something else, but it's, it reminds me of, I think it's in Tamaeus where Socrates is going into town and he's having this argument with someone about going on a trip and he brings over this kid and the kid draws a square with a line through it and he's just doing all this geometry in the sand and he's like see information is revealed to us it's not that we've learned it you know and it's it's just it's so fascinating to me to get to read great literature to read the classics to talk to Patrick McConnell and the sacred valley and understand that we're all along these lines of learning in a similar way and the school has always been to

there for us if we're willing to have an open mind and see the world as a child would see it with their imagination open and it's just it's so exciting to me what so if we if we keep going down like um if we if we take it all the way from the sacred valley of peru back to america you know there's a lot of people that say the salem witch trials were caused by ellist you've written about that can you can you kind of flesh that out for some people who may not be aware of it yeah for Sure. So, yeah, that's a fun one. So there's, yeah, like ergot fungus. So like LSD is made from, from, like, it's derived from ergot. A fungus that grows on rye, like a specific grain that like we've grown for a very long time as humans. There's even some speculation that like the hallucinian mysteries like in Greece where they would drink, they would go, you know, there's a secret society and they would all go drink some sort of potion and nobody really knows what it is. But some pretty legendary figures were there. All of them.

Yeah, really, though. Pretty much all of them. It went for a very long time, too. So there's some speculation that was LSD. And so more like something derived from ergot, that somebody somehow figured out that if you ferment this fungus in wine or something, you can get, you know, have a pretty amazing experience. So there's also been around the world instances of ergotism,

which is when the ergot grows on the rye grains and, you know, people like make bread or something and then consume, like, you need to consume a fair amount of it, I believe, to get altered. And then people eat it too much if it's famine or if they're just not aware. And then, yeah, people like kind of start going crazy. After a certain point, people, like, they die, but a lot of people will have, like, delusions or, like, I wrote another story about it. an island in Greece where they thought that they were eating this and everyone thought they could fly. A lot of people have put this on witches in other parts of the world as well. So in Salem, they think the same thing happened, that there was, you know, Urgot growing on the rye and that the people in the village that they were eating, that they were eating too much of this.

And then everyone thought they were witches because everybody was tripping out. And then everyone got carried away and ended up executing. I forget how many, but like a terrible amount of people. people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's like historians, though like, you know, there's all kinds of papers and things debating whether or not it was really ergot or not. And I honestly have no idea. I think it's a great idea. I think in that story I lean towards that it's like, we don't know and it might not have been, but, but it's definitely happened to other places around the world, this is ergotism. Yeah, it's a fascinating. And for anybody who's ever taken LSD or had a

psychedelic experience. You could totally see how imagine getting a large dose or even a moderate dose of LSD, but not even knowing it. Like all of a sudden things are moving. You might have, you could have some special powers or something. You're melting people's faces, you know, like, it's crazy. Like, imagine the whole town does it. Like, that's crazy. Like, if everybody, including, like, your community leaders, you're all tripping and, like, and you're all afraid of witches because you're, like, in the new world and, like, you know, like, things are tough. And, and you're looking for, you're, maybe looking for solutions or looking for what's wrong and everyone's a bit superstitious.

And yeah. That's not like, and everybody doing it and for a long period of time, that is not a good scenario. I'm so stoked that you bought out the Elyucinian mysteries. I think it's in some ways, I think all these places coming up or those Renaissance and Psycheductal, whatever we want to call it, it's almost like a return to the Elyucinian mystery. But, you know, I really like the idea of, from what I've read about it, you know, this idea of everyone being able to go. And I like the idea of there being the play of like Persephone and Demeter and the daughter dying and then they rediscover her. I think that's a brilliant way for people to go through a almost a right of passage or a community ritual that would really bring people together. And I think in today's world, at least in the West, we're devoid of almost all of these

rights of passage and rituals. Let me ask you this, Patrick. If you had carte blanche, if you had a ton of money and you could set up the Elyucinian mysteries today, what would it look like? Well, that's quite the question. Yeah, I mean, I really like what you said about gathering together in community. I'm a huge fan of that, of basically taking psychedelics as a group. I haven't had the privilege of doing psychedelic therapy, so I can't really speak to what that's like.

But I know that some of my most profound experiences have been with other people, with, yeah, with psychedelics, with things like music. Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting the idea of having like a play or like some sort of just something to like, like when we were talking about the geometry, something to like make meaning out of it. You know, like here like the music. It's just so good for that. sing some line and you just you feel so much from it because it's so meaningful because you're in this this open state so i mean if i was going to do it again i mean i'd probably stick like decently close to what people are already doing because like they've been doing it a long time um and i don't really want to mess with that like get people together um probably yeah have some kind of like some kind of ritualized

thing just to like keep everybody like safe and on the same page and probably just like some some good music and like some spending lots of time together before and afterwards too for that like that preparation that integration that like solidifying all those connections together um and like with each other too because it just brings people so close together when it when it goes really well and everyone gets on like the same page when everyone gets i don't know it's kind of this like like a vibe like people are we're just so connected and and and present with each other and it's it's really really beautiful and i really think that there's something there for that particularly about like a right of pass or something as well.

Yeah. It's fascinating to me. It seems maybe this is just echoing my own life, but it seems to me that maybe in the West, we've just gone through this spiritual void where you have Christianity and you have these other religions and things, but it seems like what people have gone through in the last 150 years is like this religion of money.

like this idea that you have to buy your way out of purgatory or you have to buy your happiness. And when you start looking at people that are changing the way in which they've decided to live their lives, like you saying, you know what, I'm going to just go to Peru or I'm going to go explore. It's like this, it's almost like the hero's journey in a way. Like you're looking for this idea of who I am and what you find along the way are these incredible experiences with other people. And then that opens up the door to meaning and what life means and what it can mean. And when you encompass all that, I think you have a spirituality reborn. And it seems like that's kind of happening.

Now, what's your take on spirituality, the world we're living in versus the world that we've come from? Yeah, that's a big conversation. I like that you ask that. Like, it's almost a loaded word spirituality, but I really, I really appreciate what you said about it being money. Like for me, these days, I think about it being science and money. Like, those are kind of the things that are like our ultimate truths.

It's a religion in the same time. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that we worship it like that. And like it's valuable. Like, like, there's reasons to value it. Like I'm not saying that those things aren't legitimate. I spend a lot of time trying to figure those things out. Yeah.

But yeah, I just don't think it's a, it's not like a holistic view. It's not the whole enchilent. lot of like there's just so much else out here like there's so much that we don't get to consider if we're only in those paradigms um and i think it's becoming a very personal thing spirituality but it's not it's not going to be maybe it will be like it's not going to be religions and organized like it has been in the past it is kind of my the way i see it unfolding here for example this is sort of a kind of a spiritual community like people come from all over the world they drink medicine, you know, they're doing yoga, meditation, Kigong, like,

anything you can think of here. I call it the spiritual buffet. But people go and they just, they pick what works for them and they piece it all together in a way that works for them and find the other people that are doing the same thing. They find the others. And, you know, it feels a little chaotic and disjoint it at times. But for me, I'm really just happy to see people and like get to experience myself, like, actually finding meaning, actually finding, like, whoa.

there was stuff I did now even consider going on here in this reality. And I love getting to connect with it or contemplate it or experiment with it. So, yeah, I mean, that's how I see it emerging here in my little reality in the Sacred Valley. But yeah, it's such a huge question. I really don't know where that's going. Like, I know where I want it to go. I just want more people to be interested in this stuff and be open to it. but I also, yeah, I feel like I couldn't be prescriptive or something because I have no idea what's going to work or what's going to mean something for people.

Yeah, maybe that, and maybe that's how we kind of got into some of this mess is people trying to dictate to other people, like how it should be. You know, instead of it being a celebration of your connection to your community and your family and the world around you, it became this sort of authoritarian structure of like, It's almost a throwback to the dark ages when, like, people couldn't read. And, like, you had one person saying, well, here's what the Bible says. What do you got to do? You know, and now it's like people are learning to read their own type of spirituality and make their own connections. And in doing so, I think you make a richer, fuller world, more chaotic because it shakes the foundation of the authority figures and the authoritarian structures. And, you know, you can make the argument that we're seeing finance kind of collapse around the world.

And maybe that's the absence of meaning for it. I'm excited for the future. I really think that even though it's so chaotic, it seems like a new birth to me. And everybody who's been fortunate enough to have a child knows that birth is a miracle because there's a real chance that the child can die or the mom can die during childbirth. But when the baby's brought out and mama's okay and the baby's there and you hear him cry for the first. time like it's just this celebration of life and I see with with the demographics that we have of so many boomers and so a large part of us and when I say us I mean the human person the human animal the human part of the planet is dying because the demographics are so big and it seems to me

like that's the birth but there's also this green shoot of new people coming up that are reinventing language that are reinventing ideas and it's it's it's fascinating. How do you see, in your opinion, the world beginning to awaken from a dream? Or do you see it all like that? Like, how do you see the next phase of your life going? And does that apply to the world? Nice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot there too. Like, I think I can relate to you talking about chaos, maybe some collapse, but then feeling excited. It's changed. Yeah. Yeah. Something new is happening.

I'm always down for that. Me too. I think, yeah, I think that there's definitely going to be some disruption. And I do think that kind of the ways that we've been are not going to be able to exist in the way that they have. Like you mentioned the dark ages. And there's one guy that has all the answers. Now, you know, I have Google. You can't do that anymore.

It's not going to work. Things like that, the way that information is disseminated, the way that people are or whatever. ever reason, it does seem to me getting a bit more interested in spirituality. You know, I can't speak for a lot of the world. I can only speak for what I know and what's real to me, but, but there does seem to be some changes going on. I tend to be very conscious or cautious about like a consciousness shift or something like that. I'm really open to the idea. I'm really curious about if something like that happens. I recently got exposed to ideas from, oh goodness, what's his name? Ken Wilbur, the guy, this guy, this guy,

he does like a whole bunch of work about the evolution of consciousness, like studying history. It's like it's quite complicated. Once again, like a deep rabbit hole. I would like to spend more time in when I have a moment. But he seems to think that for sure that that consciousness is changing. It's shifting. He's like mapping it out. So I do think that there's changes going on.

I think that's how it's always been. And it's possible there's big ones coming if financial collapse or environmental issues. Like if those things just become so really. that people have to do things differently. Yeah, so it begs the question to me if it's some sort of like cosmic destiny consciousness shift or if it's just like cause and effects. Like we got to this point, we got to like figure out a way to like live with a little bit more connection and meaning to like ourselves and each other like around the planet and stuff. If we're going to survive as a collective and make a better world, which I'm very optimistic about. But yeah, that's that's my rambly answer to that question.

answer to that question. I love it, man. Sometimes I like, I like to use my imagination to come up with ideas of what is possible. And recently, usually, usually when I'm on like hour four of a mushroom trip coming down, I get all these, I look up into the sky and you just have all these ideas of like, wow, you know, just this explosion of imagination. And it, it makes me think, I started thinking about cycles and how, you know, if you look at our, planet it's tilted and we go around the sun and you know you've got seasons and so we go around the sun the sun goes around the galaxy the galaxy goes around the universe you had like this cosmic year and wouldn't it make sense if we have seasons on the planet wouldn't we have seasons in like the cosmic year and

you start looking at the planet you're like wow the magnetic north pole is migrating at a faster rate than it's ever done before isn't it weird that we seem to be moving in this way like you know And you can go back and read such great literature about it was the best of times. It was the worst of times. You know, I know that they're not all connected, but for me, they kind of are. And it is just speculation and its ideas and its imagination. But at times, I think it's a beautiful place to live. And I'm wondering, what is it that you go to to your imagination?

Like when you're coming down from like a four-hour mushroom trip and you have a few moments with your partner or maybe you're alone, and you're staring into the sky, what do you think about? Oh, wow. I think about a lot of things. My mind is going crazy at that period. I love it, though. I love it. Yeah.

What you talked about, cycles and life age of the earth. I tend to get pretty big picture, actually, sometimes about, you know, this going beyond my timeline and, like, ancestral things or seeing, like, the life ages of the earth and just imagining the consequences, all that. And, yeah, I like thinking about space. and all of the cycles. Because, yeah, I agree. Like, there's just cycles here. It just seems to be a law of nature. Things just, they go through these, these transformations.

I see no reason why we, we wouldn't be going through those constantly ourselves as well. And micro and macro scales. Yeah, I definitely, I think about, I think about writing, for sure. I get a lot of ideas there. I think about my relationships and people around me. I spent a lot of time thinking about the environment. Like, it's a thing. I was a tree planter for a long time and studied in permaculture and regenerative agiculture and all this stuff.

So I definitely, sometimes I still fantasize about like different designs or different ways that it could be. Like reimagining, I'm thinking of a particular ayahuasca ceremony where I'm reimagining cities and reimagining like what this valley could be like if we got our shit together kind of thing. I mean, it's like, it's endless though. It could be anything from tweets to like really deep stuff about like my relationship with my wife or something. It's, it's, there's no real rules there. But that is a powerful time that. So you're past the peak. You've kind of done the work.

And now it's already starting to integrate. And there's there's a lot coming through. So I haven't, I don't, I have a limited experience with a lot of other. psychedelics. Is there that same come down and integration period, say, on ayahuasca or San Pedro, or is that something that's unique to the mushroom? Gosh, I mean, they're all a little unique, but I, you know, I see that same, like, peak. Yeah. And then you come down with, like, waves. I would say they're all very similar to that. Um, in San Francisco is a lot longer. St. Pedro's longer, like, gentler to come up and, and slower to come down.

and ayahuasca for me sometimes hits like immediately and then drops away really quickly as well. But you know, it's also different. I'm so hesitant to say like ones like this and ones like that because like I say that and then I'll go do it and it'll be like, oh, you thought it was this way. Hey. Yeah. I was speaking with a girl really nice, really smart. Karina Kuna Kuna.

And she runs like a kind of a conciergey kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of a kind of a a place where you go to find out what area might be good for you. And we were talking about for her, she really likes the integration period for LSD. And the way she described it was like, I told her, like, you know,

for me, I'm a little bit older. And I got a family. So, you know, eight or nine hours is a difficult time for me to find to do something like that. And she was laughing. She's like,

yeah, I could understand that. But she said, the reason I like it is because of the link. You know, the come down on LSD is like a, and she described it so beautiful. It's like a spiral staircase where I can, I don't have to focus on one thing where mushrooms I might have an hour. You know, in LSD I have like four hours so I can come down the staircase and hold this idea for a while, then walk over to here and hold this idea for a while and really integrate four or five different things.

I just thought it was a beautiful way to put that. And so. Yeah, I super agree. I lean towards the longer trips as well. Great. And sympathize that, yeah, it's hard to find the time to be on masculine. for 16 hours. Like, what the heck? That's a big commitment. But yeah, I get, I get, that's why I said I was so excited about San Pedro, actually. It's longer. It's a little bit more

gentle. I'm not just like dealing with overwhelm. I can really, I can communicate with people. I can get up and move around and do things. It's a lot easier to write things down, to play music, to do all kinds of different activities that I could never dream of doing on, on ayahuasca or a high dose of something else. And I really, yeah, I'm just a big believer in integration. And it just, it allows more for that than like smoking DMT or something. Yeah. Yeah, you don't have the death by astonishment factor.

Which is neat, which is neat. Yeah, totally, totally. Definitely hard to integrate sometimes. Yeah. What happened, you know? Where am I? What happened? Am I okay?

You know, I'm very fortunate. I get to speak to a lot of cool people. and authors, and sometimes a lot of the authors that I talk to, and at times I've experienced this where you sit down to write and you feel like something's writing through you. Do you ever get that feeling when you're doing writing? Definitely. Yeah. I call it channeling. Like, it just, you can just do it. It just happens. I kind of, uh, I kind of like sit down and do it on purpose sometimes. I can, I can sort of just put my brain aside and, and write. And I don't really I don't really know what to say about that.

It's really interesting because it gives a very different perspective. Yeah. I like to use it to give myself advice is what I do. I use it as a journaling prompt and I'll get it in my own way. And then this other part just kind of talks. And it gives really good advice. Yeah. Yeah.

It really underscores the age old line of why don't you follow your own advice? Because you don't really give yourself. the advice you would give someone else, but in that state, and this brings up another question. Like, that's a great way. You know, often it's difficult for people at the height or even in a psychedelic experience to bring stuff back, especially if you're kind of new to it because you're, you know, it's difficult to remember things, maybe just the way the brain is firing or functioning. It's difficult to bring back food for the tribe or food for yourself. And sometimes writing can do that. Sometimes I'll use my phone and like talk into it, but have you found any, any technique?

that you could share with people who are maybe trying to bring something back from that state. I mean, you named two of my favorites right there. He's writing and voice notes. It's so good to just ramble. Yeah. Especially because I can't always write. Let's be honest. It's just not possible.

So, yeah, I do both of those. I find so many different ways to try to remind myself things, though, like just writing little notes, like downloading apps, leaving objects out. like, oh, I should paint a picture, getting all of my art supplies, and just putting them on the table. Yeah, talking to friends. It's kind of like, you know, like sometimes I can't use my phone or write something. I can't even see it sometimes. Like, I can't even put the button on there.

I can't do any of it. Like, yeah, totally. And that's fine. It's great. It's great to be able to disconnect from these things that I take for granted. Yeah. But it's like leaving myself clues. I have to figure out ways that I'm going.

going to try to remember it later. It could be drawing a picture. It could be putting an object in a prominent place. It could be, ah, yeah. Those are really the biggest things that I do is just write it down, is write it down or tell people to remind me, not that that works if everyone's on psychedelics. Yeah, yeah, there's probably others, but I can't think of them right now. Those are good ones. But I would recommend voice notes for anybody. Yeah, yeah. It's weird to listen to them afterwards. Sometimes it's a little awkward or embarrassing, but yeah. Yeah, sometimes I can't even make sense of what I'm saying, but even the ramblings will trigger a thought about, oh, I think it was this. And it might not have been that,

but I'll start going off on another. I love the way you said I'll leave myself clues, because that's exactly what they are. It's like, hmm, here's a clue to this thing, you know, and like breadcrumbs in a way. And I would say, too, upon integration, taking those ridiculous, perhaps insane-sounding breadcrums seriously and spending time with them. That's something I do intentionally where I'm like, oh, this makes no sense. And instead of just throwing in the garbage, I'm like, well, what was it supposed to mean? And really like working at trying to figure out what I was trying to tell myself. Because sometimes it does come through or, you know, I don't even know if it's the actual thing I was supposed to be doing.

But if it inspires something else, then it's a value to me. Yeah, I want to stay there for a minute because I, I think sometimes that process leads to a better clarification of how you can navigate your way through life. I wrote down this quote that says, the plans with which one approaches one's own awareness of ongoing private experience determined to a great extent the probability of increased complexity of associational structures. I know that's like a big mouthful of words. and people that want to go back and listen to it totally makes sense. But the way you begin to investigate your own thoughts, and if it's something that happened during a psychedelic experience,

it actually paves a pathway for you to do that same investigation on your thoughts when you're in your conscious state of mind, whatever conscious means. But you begin to use that form of investigation in your everyday thoughts, in your relationships, in your workplace, in your writing. and that alone has a powerful way of changing the world around you because you are your thoughts in a way, you are what you project out there.

So if you can begin to change the way you think, you know what, maybe that's just describing neuroplasticity, the more that I think about it. But, you know, it's that type of thing that happens on a psychedelic experience, that happens in integration, that has fundamental changes about the way we see the world, right?

It's so fascinating to me. I mean, that kind of, that is integration for me, right? Like deep contemplation, it's not that the psychedelic gave me all the answers. Like, they might have also just given me clues to something else that I'm going to figure out later. It's not that it all happens in those six hours or whatever. It's about putting that time and effort in after the fact to make sense of it or to make more meaning out of it. It's not necessarily but face value for me. One thing leads to another and to another and to another and it's not something that we're going to see in the moment in my existence.

It's something that needs to be investigated. That's really well said. I think that that's doing the work. And that's why doing the work is so hard because there's no roadmap and you're trying to figure it out and there's only you. You could talk to people and stuff, but ultimately you're the person that has to rewire your brain. You're the person that has to make the connections because you're the only person that can.

People can tell you about their experiences. People can tell you their thoughts, but that's other people. And that that might be a giant problem with our world. And maybe it's exactly what we were talking about. Everybody's been conditioned to listen to other people, listen to your elders. When you go to school, you sit in a class with bells and whistles like a Pavlovian dog

and you're trained to do this thing. But you begin on a psychedelic journey and you're like, oh, this is, I have to do this. And you come out such a, you can come out a person with a way better perspective. I love talking to you. This is beautiful. I like the way we're moving through these ideas, man.

Thank you. Yeah, it's really fun. It's really fun to voice these things. Like I started recently doing like integration coaching with people because I love doing this exact thing that we're doing now. Like, oh, like we got the thing. Like how do we turn that into a thing that we can actually do? And it actually means something and it actually matters as opposed to like some just like wild abstraction. That like just feels overwhelming. You know, like, oh my God, I saw the cosmic servant on ayahuasca. And like, what do I do with that? But yeah, I do believe that if we can, um, if we can really take responsibility for those things that happen,

like what you were saying, like you can talk to people and I'm a huge believer in that of like getting support and being part of community and that kind of thing. But nobody can do it for us. It always comes back to that. Like we have to figure out, like I have to figure out what it means and then I have to do something with it. Otherwise that meaning is like,

you know, like I spent probably a bunch of money and a bunch of time and a bunch of like energy going through this, perhaps difficult psychedelic experience. So like I'm committed to getting something out of that because it takes a lot of effort. Yeah. I know you do a lot of research and you're reading the different

recently published papers and you're up to date on all these things that are happening in the space. I'm wondering another two part question. The first part is have you read this study? And the second part is what you think. And the study is I think DARPA has come out with this idea of finding a way to give people psychedelics that doesn't really have a spiritual component to it.

I mean, spiritual is the wrong word. They're trying to get someone like a psychedelics while they're anesthetized so that they don't have, they want to know, can they get that neuroplasticity, can they get that learning without being real conscious? Do you think that, what do you think? Do you think that would work or do you think that you need all components? What do you think? yeah that's a really interesting question i have a strong bias towards it not

yeah me too okay what they can poison the well yeah it's uh it's i mean like the phenomenal phenomenological experience like the personalized meaning that you get from those visions or those feelings like having like amplified emotions on psychedelics i can't see there being a substitute for that. That makes not much sense to me. But I will admit, like I've read, I've read some of that research. It's very interesting. I think that there's potentially other things about the brain and the mind that can be learned. There's some pretty pretty cool stuff that some companies are doing, microdosing people with DMT and seeing neurological growth. Again, I think that without some kind of habit or some kind of integration, some sort of new neural pathways that are reinforced by

like actual actions or something, I don't understand how that would change anybody's life, to be honest. And personally, I just like, go on the journey. Like, it's scary and it's hard. That's the point. Like, it's supposed to be difficult. If it was so easy, it wouldn't be such a big deal. It wouldn't be so impactful for our lives.

So I really, I encourage that. Although, you know, I'm super curious to see what that research finds. Yeah. Yeah. I guess on some level, you know, one of the benefits, that people were saying that might be awesome about it is like what if someone was in a state of dementia or had some sort of degenerative disease where they couldn't you know they they were almost at a point where they were unable to communicate or even maybe not even be there

and you could begin microdosing them or and maybe begin to build back some of that those connections which brings me to another there was a recent article in spanner magazine i think it's spanner magazine I think it's Cody's magazine. And they recently came out and had an article about an older gentleman who had dementia. And his son had begun him on a course of microdosing. You know, it's interesting the results that happened. The way he told the story, and I don't, I can't cite the medical people on there. So I'm just citing this as a story and whatnot.

But there was a gentleman whose father was beginning to, in the, beginning to get to the later stages of dementia. So he no longer could drive. He was kind of in a bed. He would be propped up on the couch. He used to play guitar. He used to do all these things. And those were going away.

And they had pretty much stopped. His son had done some research and spoken to some professionals about what if we got him on a course of psilocyber microdosing. And they worked with some professionals and they figured out it wasn't going to be a problem because he, there was medicine had almost given up. on him. So they took this course and everyone should go read the the article in Spanner magazine. And a little quick blurb is that one day he came home, you know, he'd been used to seeing his dad laying in bed and missing him. And one day he came home and he heard a guitar playing

and he opened the door and his dad was beginning to play guitar again. He's like, dad, what are you doing? He's like, I don't know why I haven't been playing guitar, but I just felt like it. It was a really heartwarming story, man. I get goosebumps when I talk about it. Yeah. And so the premise is, like, might it be possible for psychedelics to be something that can be used to help degenerative brain disease? And according to that story, the answer is yes. You know, so it's a beautiful thing that could be happening out there. Have you heard any other stories like that? Or what's your take on psychedelics maybe being a potential for brain health and older age?

Yeah. I've definitely heard other stories like that for sure. or for all kinds of ailments, to be honest, I've heard a story about psychedelics. But in particular, neurodegenerative diseases, that seems like such a fruitful point of research because we just kind of have no idea what to do otherwise, just like those professionals sound out.

Like it's just the fact that it's neurogenesis, that they've shown that these can literally regrow your nerve cells. And if we dig into, you know, like, that's not the only way that, we can affect neuroplasticity. Like, like, if, if we combine psychedelics, you have potentially microdoses with, like, therapies, like, physical or, or mental health, like, type therapies with those, it stands to reason to me that that would encourage the neurogenesis and help people,

like, like, get back to where they want it to be. Again, this is, like, I feel like that stuff is very cutting edge neuroscience. Like, it's really, really interesting and super promising in my mind. opinion. Like I'm not really aware of much other many other options for people in that situation. And I would love to see actually I'll have to read that article but it's like a last resort for somebody. I would really like to see that get done in earlier stages. Right. Right. Right. Like as a preventative even right. Agreed. There's so many potentials there. And I imagine as like the stigma lessons and people get more curious about.

about these dangerous drugs that there'll be, there'll be some breakthroughs there. I hope. I really hope so. Yeah. Yeah, me too. I was, you know,

it's interesting that we talk about that. I was talking to this really, interesting guy who got his own podcast called Leader Delix. I think it's called. Sebastian, I'm sorry if I got that wrong, man. But he comes down to the Sacred Valley sometimes, and he was telling me about,

maybe you know, there's a guy named Luke down there that does like some brain mapping. And he was able to, I'll give you his thing. I'm going to reach out to him as well. And he was talking about, you know,

they would, in this particular setting, people would come down and they would hook them up to like an EEG machine. They would get these readings. And then they would have a ceremony. They would do it after again and compare and contrast, like a brain map kind of towards it. And we're able to find some pretty cool information about connectivity

and thought process. And when you had said it would be nice for people to use psychedelics before it got to the point of dementia. You know, I think you're seeing this growing together of neuroscience and psychedelics and mapping and the science and the biological part of it kind of coming together in a way. It's cool to see it come together. Have you read any other articles about brain mapping and psychedelics? No, I'll be honest. I don't know a lot about brain mapping. In fact, I'm not even entirely sure what you mean by the term.

Is that just like examining people's different brainwaves and things while they're on psychedelics? Yeah, I think it's like there's a series of it. And it's such a broad brush to say brain mapping, you know, but I mean like, you know, there's people that go on. You see if you go online, you can see like the fMRI sometimes and you can see the connectedness. And we've learned that the default mode network is overrided. And so I'm just using, yeah, I'm just using that as like a broad brush. But that science seems to be emerging in a way where we will be able to, I mean, we can probably already explain it going through it, but to have another map to help us as a visual aid would

probably be helpful for insurance reasons or getting psychedelics to the people before they get there. It's interesting to think about. No, it's amazing stuff. My understanding is it's actually like pretty expensive and difficult to do a lot of those studies, particularly if you're going to, you know, bring, like you can't give someone an fMRI in the jungle. It's really hard to create, I think they called in science like naturalistic conditions when people are doing these brain mapping studies. Yeah, brain mapping, like I've read about it for sure.

Like I come across it in the science, but I don't generally write about it very much because it's just, I try to, I tend to stay away from stuff. I don't think I can explain. Like if I don't, if I can't understand it and simplify it and put it in an article, I'm just not touching it because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I really feel psychedelics is such a sensitive space, and I don't want to give any wrong impressions or make bold claims that, like, yeah, like you can cure your dementia with, like,

micro doses, take this much every day. Like, it's just, I don't have the authority to say that stuff. But I would love to talk to, to an expert here in the value of it would love. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we'll make it happen. We'll get them in touch. You know, another sort of polarizing topic that seems to be in the world of psychedelics today is the cost in which it takes for, like there's these clinical trials happening, you know,

and it seems at least here in the United States that, you know, some ketamine treatments or even a psilocybin treatment can be upwards of like between 5 and 20 grand or something like that. And it seems to get away from maybe some of the people that need it are the guy that lives under the bridge that has had an emotional breakdown versus John from Silicon Valley, who's going to create the next bad GPT7, which John's probably an awesome guy too, you know, but... Yeah, John's not at fault here. Not at all.

He's awesome. Yeah. But there's a great article that came out, I think, yesterday and vice about that, decolonizing psychedelics, just talking about, yeah, how not all communities are involved. And it's a problem. I mean, like I see it every day, living in Peru. It's like, you know, the local...

Peruvian does not get to do what I get to do here. It's it's and I don't I don't know I don't know offhand what the solutions to that kind of stuff are. And yeah like you mentioned the the cost like yeah I mean that that's a place to start like it's like ketamine is not that expensive to make and and getting enough practitioners so that these costs can come to reasonable levels but making sure that they're compensated ideally like if got when governments finally open the doors to this stuff like subsidizing or like insuring this kind of thing is like I there is some optimistic stuff coming about that these things will be covered by my insurance at some point with some level but right now

the skepticism level is just so high and yeah yeah it's tough I don't really like saying that I don't know the answers it makes me think I should probably think about these kind of things more because it's it's it's such a it's a hot topic right now and it's a hot topic for a reason it's it's difficult you know it's it's a weird feeling to come back from my iwas ceremony and have like the cab driver driving me and like he's never got to do it and like I don't know it's just like it feels uncomfortable and it's really hard to bridge those connections it's it's not yeah it's not a simple thing because because of things like stigma because of things like um yeah just like huge cultural differences like education um it's really large complex issues that

yeah hopefully we can figure out yeah it seems that there are a lot of people finding ways to to have therapy or go to retreats. And, you know, another topic sometimes too is that sometimes people that little retreat that's not very good for them or it's more of like there's 50 people at this place or, you know, let's say, Patrick, that there was people in the audience that were thinking about going to a retreat somewhere and they have, they're fortunate enough to be able to do it. What are some warning signs or some things that they should look for that might be a good one versus might be something that's not so good. Is there anything that someone could look for?

Yeah, there's definitely a few things. Like, for me, I started doing this through word of mouth. I wanted to come to Peru and drink ayahuasca, and I was nervous because there is reason to be nervous. People have gotten take advantage of, like, way too many women have been sexually abused and men too. Like, I'm sure, but it's just, it is a bit of the Wild West. So I went through referrals of people that I trusted. That is the best go-to, in my opinion. Researching any kind of center online. Choosing centers, sort of to go back to the last topic we were talking about, choosing facilitators and practitioners who like have a connection to the medicine, like an ancestral connection. Not to say that there's not expat facilitators of ayahuasca here in the Sacred Valley that aren't

skilled and can't help you, like not at all. But there's other people that could definitely use the income and a lot of it does go back to people's communities. But again, like, just like doing your homework. People have reputations for a reason. And also like, it's kind of weird one, but like, like trust your gut. Like you have to feel it. Like if you, if someone makes you uncomfortable, like you're going to feel more uncomfortable when you're really high around them. So don't do it. Don't do it. There's lots of practitioners just because you like show up in a cafe here. And some guy offers to take you on a Wachuma hike does not mean you should do it. You should like, like, take your time.

Like there's lots of really good people that really want to help people. But there's other people that want to take advantage. So it's, it's, yeah, it's using discernment, being patient. Yeah. And really just connecting to other people who are doing this kind of work. So you have like the support and you can get the knowledge through the great bind of who's good. and who's not. Yeah, I think that's great information for people to begin doing their own research and their own journey on.

I know you love writing. Have you, it's passion for you. Have you thought about writing like a series of sci-fi books or have you got like another book coming on? Are you going to go down that book route at some point in time? Oh, book route. I mean, I feel like most writers want to go down the book road at some point. Yeah, definitely, definitely have some ideas. A sci-fi book.

I mean, I like reading sci-fi, but I've never, I've never written any of it. Maybe when I get older, if I had, I would need, I got to pay the bills, so I got to I know, I know, websites for now. Some great websites, too. I'm very happy that support me. But, yeah, I would love to do, I'd love to do a longer form book about integration, probably do it with somebody else who's done it a bit longer than me. Definitely have some ideas around that. Yeah, I mean, I would love to write about my own personal.

journey at some point because it is long and colored to getting to where I am. And yeah, maybe do some fiction eventually, but I need to write some short stories first. Yeah, man. I think you would be phenomenal. And I love reading. And that was my personal plug to try to make you write science fiction because I love it. Oh, thanks. I needed that.

Yeah, totally. Science fiction. You're like, what? Kill me. I got to pay rent. I'll send you. I have a really cool book that science fiction. that has to do with the Amazon and neuroplasticity and mushrooms and what happens to the world is really good.

This guy, David Walton, he's a really good science fiction writer. I'll send you the book. Yeah. Yeah. And so, well, coming up on a time crunch here, I got to tell you, Patrick, this has been a fascinating conversation. And I'm so excited to get to talk to you. And I'm hopeful that we can do more of them. Maybe when some more art.

Sure. You know, if you got an article coming out or something like that, I need to get the word out. and I would love for you to think about me to come and talk about it. And so before I let you go, where can people find you? And what do you got coming up? And what are you excited about? What am I excited about? Most excited right now coaching people.

I've been facilitating group work here in PSAC, circling, authentic relating, and just starting, I mean, a coaching program right now. And just, yeah, it's not even just psychedelic integration, but literally just helping people. helping people do what they say they want to do in life. A lot of us can use a nudge and some support. And yeah, of course, like psychedelic stuff too, definitely had some people reach out of like, whoa, that was crazy.

Like, what now? And that psychedelics, helping people create stuff. That is by far the thing I'm most excited about right now. Definitely, I'm stoked to be writing some new stuff for double blinds, writing some stuff for a website called TripSitter.org, really great harm reduction website. I definitely want to plug them. Gosh, I mean, there's so many projects.

I could just list them off. But I mean, you can also find me on Twitter at Patrick McConnell. My website is being updated right now, but it is adjustable normal.com. That'll be up and running in a couple weeks. And there's writing on there and a newsletter and ways that you can get in touch with me about coaching, which is also on Twitter, LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah, and I think your link tree profile has a point.

portfolio of all your writings as well too where people have wanted to go and check out like a catalog for sure yeah so that's my portfolio it's some of my favorite pieces um if you go to those websites you can find a bunch more of other stuff i've done as well so yeah definitely encourage people to check that out and support all the people that have let me write about all this this strange trippy wonderful stuff which is just such a great opportunity that i'm very very thankful for yeah it is i'm glad you're doing what you're doing and i really admire your writing style and i I'm thankful to get to speak with you, and I'm looking forward to further conversations. So that's all we got for today.

Hey, man. The pleasure is all of mine, man. It exceeded expectations, man. Thank you for that. And send my aloha to your friends and family out there and let them know that we're thinking about them in Hawaii. They need to get the word out. Let me know. So, yeah, that's what we got for today.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for spending time with myself and Patrick and hopefully enjoying the conversation as much as we did. But that's all we got for today. Patrick, hang on one second. I'm going to shut it down, but I still want to talk to you for one more moment. Aloha, everybody.