TrueLife - Perry Knoppert - The Beauty Between Two Thoughts

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/The Trailer:https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=shared&v=CeY1ZJNll70https://www.theoctopusmovement.org/Ladies and gentlemen, distinguished guests, and fellow thinkers, welcome to an intellectual voyage guided by the innovative mind of Perry Knoppert, the luminary founder of The Octopus Movement. Perry is not just a leader; he's a visionary navigating the seas of nonlinear thinking and cognitive diversity, steering us toward a world where the extraordinary capabilities of atypical thinkers are embraced.In the currents of our manifesto, Perry introduces us to a realm where nonlinear thinking, multipotentiality, and neurodiversity converge. The Octopus Movement is more than a coalition; it's a global force challenging the conventional, urging acceptance of diverse talents, and fostering collaboration among specialists and nonlinear thinkers.Perry's philosophy resonates through our eight-armed mascot, the octopus, symbolizing resilience with three hearts, intelligence with nine brains, adaptability with independent arms, and uniqueness with alien-like DNA. It's an invitation to join a movement where, like the octopus, we thrive in uncomfortable waters, test multiple paths simultaneously, and adapt swiftly to change.The call to action echoes: If you're a nonlinear thinker, join us; if you recognize our value, support us. In a world facing unprecedented challenges, nonlinear thinkers are not just part of the solution—they are the catalysts for a brighter future. Perry Knoppert, our philosopher, multipotentialite, and octovist, guides us with wisdom, urging authentic conversations, connecting diverse minds, and igniting positive change. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you're having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining, hope the birds are singing, hope the wind is at your back. I hope you take a moment to think about where you are between two thoughts, whether you're Joseph Campbell or Perry Knappert or George Monty. Whatever you're doing right now?

I hope you take some time to take care of yourself because that is where the path forward lies. I want to introduce to you today and maybe tomorrow. Who knows when you're listening to this? Whenever you listen to this, I'll love to introduce to you an incredible individual. And this is going to be an intellectual voyage, I'm hopeful. It's guided by the innovative mind of the one and only Dr. Octopus Perry Knappert. The luminary founder of the octopus movement.

He's not just a leader. He is a visionary navigating the seas of nonlinear thinking and cognitive diversity, steering us toward a world where the extraordinary capabilities of atypical thinkers are embraced. In the currents of our manifesto, Perry introduces, us to a realm, realm, realm, where nonlinear thinking, multi-potentiality and neurodiversity converge. The octopus movement is more than a coalition. It's a global force challenging the conventional, urging acceptance of diverse talents and fostering collaboration among specialists and nonlinear thinkers.

That's report we're going to underscore that later. Perry's philosophy resonates through our eight-armed mascot, the octopus, symbolizing resilience with three hearts, three hearts, three hearts. Intelligence with nine brains, I'm not going to say it nine times. Adaptability. No, I have to. Nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, nine brain, okay, I did it. Fairly.

Yeah. See what you do to me? Maggie, yeah. I got these problems. Okay. With independent arms and a uniqueness with alien like DNA. It's an invitation to join a movement. where, like the octopus, we thrive in uncomfortable waters.

Test multiple paths simultaneously and adapt swiftly to change. Perry, thank you so much for being here today. Shout out to the octopus movement, all the founding members, all the ambassadors. Everybody in the octopus movement, if you're not in it, what are you doing? Come take a look and see what we got going on. Thank you, Perry, for being here. How are you? I'm doing well, George, and I really fucked up this morning.

How dare you? I can't believe it. I'm sorry, we're late. I thought it was Thursday. It's Tuesday. I can blame it on my dyslexia, but I think I was just busy, and I didn't pay enough attention to your WhatsApp message.

I'm like, yeah, let's do this. It's Thursday. No, it's Tuesday. I made a mistake. Sorry, if you were waiting for this. Nobody's waiting for this. But if you were waiting for this, then we're late. It's my fault.

Sorry. Rick Clark is waiting. Thomas Hutchison is waiting. Everyone's laughing. Oh, sorry, guys. Sorry, you guys. Yeah, it's all good. I'm excited we're here.

And I think it comes at an awesome time. I think it comes at a cool time for not only the world, but a lot of people. A lot of people have been waiting. I think that if you look back at the history, there's been a lot of nonlinear thinkers that have found themselves in positions and been like, what the fuck am I doing here? Like, I don't fit in here. I'm weird. This shit doesn't make sense to me.

people like me but like I can't I can't I can't I can't fucking stay here anymore like thank you for bringing the others to a place where we can kind of be together like it's pretty amazing man is that is that how you feel about it was there was there some sort of draw that made this thing happen for you maybe you can break that down for people who may not know yeah that's how that's how I see it as well and feel it as well and it's it's an it's a difficult journey george because you know there's something and you don't know what it is So, yeah, we've been waiting. That's so funny.

What am I doing here, right? There's some weird shit going on. Yes. And I wanted to solve that, but without knowing how to solve that. And I remember in the beginning when I started the octopus move and some people were saying, Perry, what are you doing? It's chaos. And I said, I don't know what I'm doing.

I just know that I need to do something that makes sense. And it's George, the most fascinating thing is that the linear power is always there. It's always, it's like the dark force that's pulling you in. You know, you have to do it this way. You have to have a blueprint, a business plan. You have to have rules. You have to do it like this. Otherwise, it won't work.

Says, who? Right. I love it. I had people in the beginning saying, you know, I don't want to be involved. This is going to be mediocre because you're not having any rules. Now I can laugh about it, but back then I was confused. I was like, but it feels I need to do this. And it feels like I need to trust the organic creation. And I don't want to follow these rules. But everybody is saying that I need to follow these rules. And thank God I was homeless just before. where I learned not to listen to anyone because when I was homeless, it was so difficult. And then other people were making it even more difficult by giving you unsolicited advice. That's something I hate in my life. Don't listen to advice.

You know, Perry, you need to find a job. No shit. Really? I'm working with it. Yeah. You need to do this. You need to do that. You loser.

And so even when you're in a difficult situation, Others can make it even more difficult for you. And the only way out is not to listen. The only way out is just to follow your gut feeling. And thank you, Mandy. And now it's almost three years, two and a half years, three years further. It's working. And now it's not a dream anymore.

It's not an idea anymore. The structure is there, based on what we've created and not based on how we thought it should be created. And I like that so much. It's there because of the people, not because of the idea and forcing everybody into that idea. I love it too. And I think there's a lot of people that are drawn to it. Some of us instinctively, some of us when they get to read the story,

some of us when they listen to the story. And, you know, isn't it interesting that when you listen to the people that tell you to, hey, got to follow these rules, it's kind of like the same thing as language. Like, everybody wants to name something. But you know what? I don't want their names. Like, let me, let me choose my own name for it. You know, like, I heard this real cool story about, I think it was Terrence McKenna talking about a hummingbird. And he says, you know, when we name things, we take away all the magic.

He's like, imagine being a child and seeing a hummingbird for the first time. And this beautiful, colorful, winged beast flies into the room. And a child is just like, oh, like looking how beautiful this thing is. And then the dad comes to it's like, it's a hummingbird, George. You've taken away all the magic. You know, and it's kind of like that with the rules too, right? Like when someone tells you, you're going to do it. And then parents are saying when the hummingbird is there again, you know what parents do?

What's that? So what's the name of that bird, right? They're forcing the, now you have to tell it's a hummingbird because that's cool. You can say it's a hummingbird and not talk about how beautiful, how amazing, or no, no, no, you have to, you have to know the language. It's true. I agree with you. It's the cult in culture, right? Like, that's the beginning of cultural conditioning is our language. We begin to shun people based on their willingness to adhere to the strict linguistic profiles out there.

People have speech impediments. They must have a problem. You know, but they can't speak the language. we shun them and it's interesting to think about that but that comes i just bring that up because it comes all the way back to people telling you how to run a business and in the same way isn't that putting limits on what's possible and now we're to government you know it's like we're going to put limits on what's possible like why would you do that like that's that's that's that's a problem i think yeah and but it's it's not that i'm against these i keep saying that

people this is the linear approach towards me is to put me in a box that I'm against the system, right? You linear. That's not the case, right? It's not, you know, you're against this. I just want to open it up. I just want to make it visible. I just want that we can see it.

This is the system. Fine. Perfect. Let's embrace it. This is nonlinear thinking. This is humans. It just needs to be clear. I know some people,

People that are very against things and they are angry and they use their angry force to do something. I'm not angry. I'm just passionate about the possibility that's right in front of us. And we can't really see it because we're blindsided by sometimes the systems or linear thinking. George, I recently, and I still need to make a post about it, I asked JetGPT, I love AI. I asked JetGPT. I said,

how did linear thinking fucked up the world? You can ask that to AI. And then in the old days, you should spend weeks in a library to figure this out. And now this computer is saying, well, look at Chernobyl. It went wrong there because of linear thinking.

Look at the Titanic. They thought in a linear way, we've created a system. in this ship that it cannot sink. So we're not listening to our gut feeling and normal thinking because we've created the system to answer this question and we can just continue and it killed God knows how many people. So I'm not against systems.

It's just to see it more clearly and to be active in it and say, wait, you know, I know this is the normal way to go. and I appreciate that, but let's stop the matrix. A lot of people talk about the matrix, of course. There is a matrix behind it. Maybe it's a good example to see it as the matrix. On the other hand, it makes it spooky and bad at the same time, which is not always the case, of course.

And language, what you just said for me is very linear as well. Language is linear. This is a cup of tea, end of story. And I keep telling this story about when I just started, everybody was talking about, oh, you're creating a community. And for me, the word community was a linear word that didn't fit in what I felt. And now I created into the human mycelium, which I think is way better than a community. And I had someone saying to me also becoming angry.

People get angry all the time, George, it's incredible. He became angry. Perry, you shouldn't be doing this. Nobody knows what a mycelium is. I said, who cares? Right? For me, this is what feels good. And we should use that.

Why should I use a word that doesn't feel good, but everybody knows? But then it's the linear rules again. This is a group of people, so we call it a community. No, it's not a community. Community is boxed. The community is you go in, you go out. You're accepted or you're not accepted. This is not what we're doing.

This is for everyone. There are no rules. Everybody is welcome. It's open. It's dynamic. It's organic. It grows. People are connected with each other.

And there are no expectations. And nobody understands what the hell is really happening, but it's happening. That's a mycelium. They used it in Tokyo to design the metro system. You know, they asked nature, we can't do it. Can you do it? And then mycelium did it. And I have a feeling that we need to do the same thing in creating the matter of solutions in the world by looking at the mycelium.

You and me. Yeah. I think the solution of climate change is right in front of us. Us. It's not that difficult. Anyway. No, it makes perfect sense. I think what when we talk about people being angry and we talk about it seems to me anyway, and this is just my opinion.

But it seems to me that the existing power paradigm sees creation as a threat. And creative people are disruptive people. You know, someone who's creative can find a solution for you that you may have already paid a few million dollars for an algorithm to do. You know, a creative person may figure out that one of the smartest people running the company is wrong. And now these egos are involved in there. Because I see a lot of creative people getting pushed out of places where they would

really do a lot of great things for people. But I think that that is the anger. I think that people in existing, you know, even books or theories, like if you look at Darwin or you look at different theories that were put out there, a lot of the times we push creative people out of the way because we don't want them to disrupt what the fuck we got going on already. Who cares if they're right? You know what I mean?

And on some level, I think nonlinear people have found that the same way that there is a sort of perverse localism, I'll call it. You know, so too is there a perverse localism against nonlinear thinkers on some level. But that's why I think this community is growing. Like there's so much creativity. When we had the meeting today, shout out to Michelle, who has a great program for wisdom keepers out there. Like, everyone should go check her out. however, I think there's a lot of bias out there. What's your take on creativity as a problem for the existing paradigm?

Okay. Why do people love linear thinking? I think that's the answer. And I was reading this research paper of the Institute of Economic Affairs. Can you imagine? They figured it out. They figured it out. So the problem is this.

Chaos. Chaos is absolutely wonderful. We're having a cool conversation today thanks to chaos. I was late. I didn't have my normal morning routine. I messed up and there's energy and there's fun and it's unexpected and it flows even better. It's thanks to chaos. Absolutely. But chaos for many, many, many, many people, most people, it's scary shit. Why? chaos you're not in control you don't know what's going to happen you know we we should have done this interview on Thursday no I'm not prepared and I need to be prepared but I want to be myself so I don't need to prepare because you want to parry with the conversation and not a prepared parry like this is what I'm going to say whatnot so people are desperate in knowing what will happen in the near future and the distant future. It's so important for them. Why?

And this research paper figured it out. Why? And I love that. To make a very long story short, they don't want to look at their own mental state. If you're in control, you don't have to have that conversation with yourself. What the fuck am I doing? why I am responding this way. You know, if you're in control, you are not having any difficult conversations.

You think this is wrong. That's bullshit, of course, because you always have difficult conversations. And you have anxiety, you have stress. It's there. And we're trying to keep it away from us. But maybe same with the linear and nonlinear thinking and the systems. Maybe it's not against systems. Maybe it's not against stress.

Maybe it's not against chaos. Maybe you have to embrace it. And you need to understand your own, the science of yourself. So you understand what the flip is happening in my brain when something happens and I can deal with it. What happens when I lose everything? What happens? Do we die people? No, we don't die.

When you lose your Mercedes-Benz, it's okay. You survive. right it's and and that's the problem and and that's not what i'm saying this is what the research paper is saying people don't like innovation it's scary shit because they're not in control and if they're not in control they have to look at their own mental capabilities their own mental state they want to go there they don't want to go there they don't want to talk about it they don't want to talk about that they don't want to talk about it that's how scary this shit is people go to people go to retreats right people want to be in control so they are going to work you know on themselves and they're going

to a yoga retreat in Bali it's the safest fucking thing you can do you're fully in control you see what's happening that week and you know it's going to be yoga it's a beautiful area and everything is in control you know what's happening you're not working on yourself you're just telling yourself i'm doing something good for myself but i'm still fully in control you tell other people look at me that my mindfulness i'm working you know so hard on myself and i'm reading books and i'm doing yoga read the book that scares the hell out of you read the book that you see and you think that's bullshit read the book that doesn't appeal to you then you're learning something that's then something is happening.

But it's, that's the problem with linear thinking. And I'm not blaming you. First of all, everybody is a non-linear thinker. You're a baby, you're a non-linear thinker. NASA did the research. They were searching for the most brilliant minds in creativity during the space race. They wanted to go to the moon.

Let's create some cool stuff here. And we need creative minds. Three to five year olds were the creative minds, George. 98% of the, of them 98% of the 3% to 5 year olds are brilliantly creative. And then they did the research at adults. They interviewed 280,000 adults with the average age of 31. Linear language people find this important, right? That it's really solid. So that's why I'm giving these numbers. And 2% of this group of 280.

adults were brilliantly creative 2% and 98% of the three to five year olds. So we mess up things. Kids go to school and you get into that linear system. Again, not against the educational system. I think we just need to have a new conversation and look at things again because we're in a new era of time. Things are changing. Yeah.

We're developing. We're amazing humans. We can do amazing things. We can solve the unsolvable. But we need to redefine maybe education. Keep the system there, but have a conversation. Now when you go to school, it's tight underwear. It's linear.

You need to be on time at school. I get it. You need to organize everything. I get it. I get all the rules of school. You need to do your homework. Of course you need to do your homework. That's how it works.

But I was in the car picking up my daughter and she was telling me about something like a, she was talking about Hitler. She was talking about a natural disaster in the Netherlands. She was talking about the war in Israel. And I said, Jesus, that's a fun day at school, right? So did you talk about something beautiful as well? Yeah. No.

So tell me about the rules at school. Bam, bum, bum, ridiculous rules as well, George. The school where she's at, they're nuts. You know, she cannot talk to her brothers or sisters during the break because that might offend other kids that don't have siblings. Whoa, that's indoctrination. That's linear, right?

What the hell? And that's what they're focused on. And I said, okay, so you know about all these wars and all these problems, name me one person who changed the world, who did something beautiful, who inspired so many people. Tell me. Now, Martin Luther King. Of course. Jack Tripper. Of course.

Beautiful people. Look at artists. Yes. Picasso, Salvador Dali. Look at all these artists. Look at art. You can just box it. If you want to box it and do it in a linear way.

Yeah. Talk about artists. Talk about one artist every week at school. Not during art, but just in general. Why did he do what he did or she? You know, what is this Japanese lady doing with all the dots? Talk about that. She's still alive.

She's amazing. You can see her shit. Wonderful. Why is that not happening? Why don't you take a flower every day, every week? Let's look at the tulip here in the Netherlands. Why is it called the tulip? Draw the tulip.

What are the colors of the tulip? Why is it so beautiful? What's happening? No, we're talking about wars. We're talking about dictators. We talk about rules. Doesn't piss me off, but it's so clear. And then what happens is you become more and more and more linear because this is how we should do things.

This is how it works. And then when you study hard, you get your diploma. and when you do well, when you meet the right people, you get the right job, you get enough income so you can have a happy life. Sounds ridiculous when I say it like that. Sounds really stupid, but we're all going for it. I'm not saying you should not go for not your job. That's not what I mean.

I mean the awareness of what are you doing? You know, it's, I don't get it. Yeah. That's the problem with linear thinking. We have a non-linear brain. We go to school. Our parents also mess up many times. And you have to do this.

You have to do that. You have to call it a hummingbird. Call it something else. You know, give it a name for yourself. Who cares? Let it go. Embrace the non-linear thinking. Learn about linear thinking.

Yeah. There's a phenomenal teacher called John Taylor Gatto. And he speaks about genius being everywhere. And he was, he's an incredible teacher. People can buy his book. It's called Dumbing Us Down. But in that book, he speaks about his time as an incredible teacher at one of the most prestigious private schools on the planet.

And then he talks about how we got sick of teaching there. And he went to like one of the quote-unquote worst school education systems in the heart of New York. And he found genius, the same amount of genius in those kids as the private schools. It's just that the thinking, that goes on there. And maybe you could speak to this, Perry. What do you think is the relationship between fear and linear thinking? It is the fear. It's the fear of. So you want to be in control because of fear. Yes. That's the whole issue. The fear of looking at yourself, the fear of being vulnerable. You know, the whole big thing now is to be your authentic self. Yep.

I totally agree. Why are we doing that? Because maybe on the other hand, more and more people are not their authentic self and just follow the crowd. And, you know, at my time, but when I was young, my kids hate that when I do that. I'm 48. When I was young and I was at school, you had these different groups, you know, you had the weirdos, you had the artistic guys, you had the popular dudes and yet all these different groups. And now it's cool. It's all the. It's all. the same, more or less, here in the Netherlands. It's all the same. And it's, I don't know why I'm saying this, but fear. Maybe, maybe we're talking about the authentic self more and more, because to bring that back in balance, because there is a lot of fear for standing out. There's a lot of fear for the unknown. There's a lot of fear for chaos. There's a lot of fear for not being in control. COVID-19 was a very good example for fear in not being in control. You couldn't go outside. We were not allowed to go to the office. So all these linear thinkers that drive to the office every

day and that's the way to go and they're happy with that. Then COVID came and they had to stay at home and work at home. People were freaking out. Like, I can't do it. And then they were at home with their kids. And they were freaking out. because they were at home with their kids. That's the sentence, George. Yeah. They were freaking out because they were at home with their kids. And they thought it was difficult.

They're kids, not someone else's kids. They're kids, right? And you saw that some people were creating creative solutions, right? And going with their musicians online on Zoom and create awesome things. And you were, and you saw people that. that were freaking out and, you know, being very scared and creating conspiracy theories to escape that fear of the unknown. Yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I think that there was a really, there was going to be books written on the shift that happened at that time. I think a lot of people that I know came to the conclusion like, what the fuck am I doing with my life? when that happened. It's like, I'm here with my kids. I'm here with my family. Like, I have everything.

You know, for me and a lot of other people that I know, it fundamentally changed. It was the wake-up call that you had been waiting for, praying for, hoping for. What the fuck am I doing? I'm working 80 hours a week for what? For fucking money? I have everything right here and I leave it every day. I leave it every day. And for me, it was like, I can't do it anymore. I love, I don't love the things that COVID brought as far as death and destruction or fear and stuff. But I love the fact that COVID brought to me an idea that ripped the scales from my eyes and was like, holy shit. I've been, I have been living this illusion for way too long. I'm so thankful that this thing came and showed me what I've been missing.

You know, but I do. I think that fear is a giant part of conditioning. And if you look at the society in which we live, linear is what Pavlov tried to create with his well, with his whistles and food. I blow a whistle, you get the food. I blow a whistle, you get the food. That's stimulus response. That's linear thinking. Linear thinking is lazy. Everybody in my opinion is somewhat of a genius. Everybody in my opinion has a gift. If they're willing to do the work and walk out and be laughed at, walk out and have to point fingers at you. You'll figure it out. I promise you you will. It's in your heart. You'll figure it out.

But you have to be willing to take that. Being linear is lazy, I think, on some level. And I can't help but say that. A lot of people will disagree with you that linear is not lazy at all. It's, it's, no, it's, it's, it's, because it's a decision you take, you make. to follow that linear path that allows you to go where you want to go and live in the house you want to live in and have the holidays you want to spend and you you sacrifice in a way there's a lot of sacrifices yeah right and and it's it's hardship and i cannot think about you know all these employees having fun and going to the office every day that that's that it's joy every day and and you cannot say in the morning, you know, it doesn't feel like working today. I need to do something else and I will work at night. You know, there is no flexibility in where you work with a lot of linear

job. I can imagine that people are enjoying this every day, but still they do it because they took the decision to follow this linear path and to be present for their family and to take care of their family and sacrifice that. And I respect that as well. well. So in that viewpoint, I disagree with you that it's not lazy at all. It's far from lazy. It's a lot of sacrifice. It is difficult. It is difficult. I'm probably projecting onto it my ideas because I'm upset with, I'm upset with it. So how can I not project on it? It is hard. when you sacrifice your time of people you love to go work for somebody else. That's a giant sacrifice.

But on some level, if I was to back up my point, I would say that's because of fear. People are doing these things, they're making these sacrifices. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because they're afraid to do it. They're afraid what will happen if they don't do it. Yeah, but they're also conditioned that way. Yes. It's education with parents in school. You know, this is how we do it.

this is what you need to do okay and i follow the rules which is fine i follow the system the system is not helping in that perspective either right not at all you need to do it that way because if we all do it all do it that way it works i agree it works but for how long are we creating something really beautiful are we not you know destroying the planet are are are we good for humanity? Are we taking really good care of each other? Are we, look at homeless people. I've been there. It's awful, George. And we can solve this in a second. We're not doing it. And that makes me sad. It's not that difficult. Why aren't we doing it? What do you think? Why? Well, you know, I think it's because of the linear systems.

When someone thinks about a homeless person, think about it. You do it as well. Everybody does it. Yeah. Homeless. Here we go. Homeless. Start thinking. Okay. What do you see? What do you see, George? The problem is the language, they're not homeless, they're houseless. Yeah.

Home is a, you know what I mean? Like it's already in the language. It's embedded in the language. Exactly. But we see, when we think about homeless, we see someone who's dirty. Yep. Someone who smells. Someone who has a problem. Someone who might be addicted to drugs or whatever.

It's all problems. This is how we look at the homeless people. And what I find so difficult is that apparently in how we're developed as human beings, the system of thinking takes over from the reality. The reality is it's another human who is not capable of, you know, being where they should be. It's not working for them at that time. It's not. Yes.

It's not working. So, and they're in between everything. They're lost. And we're looking at that. from a linear perspective and not from a human perspective and it's immediately oh it's trouble it's problem and they will steal things and and don't and but we can solve this we can solve it today if we want to this is also something what i found very inspiring of covid 19 yeah we decided all to stay at home when the pandemic was there right there were no planes everybody was at home there were hardly any

cars you see what happened to nature george within a few days i was living in brussels downtown brussels it was quiet i could hear the birds the sky was so clean it was incredible normally i go to switzerland and and hike in the mountains to have fresh air i could have that now in the city center of Brussels because everybody stayed at home. This was so inspiring for me. Like if we all do it, it happens. And then we can see, yeah, but we had to because of the government and it was wrong and it's conspiracy and other things. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about we did something together and we solved it immediately. How cool is that? I think it's even cooler in like I probably like a lot of people. I keep my mind.

own little scientific journal where I make notes about disasters and then what happens to the human race. And what I noticed is exactly what you said, the same way that nature came back and decided to reclaim, to rewild the place around it. So too did the human spirit. The human spirit began to rewild itself. You know, and that means that the thorns kind of come out, that the thickets kind of come out like that. And I think this speaks to the idea of the idea of the idea of linear. Like the linear path is a, is a, you want to cut a road and get from A to B that's the most, that's the easiest way. That's the best way for everybody from A to B. If we can cut a path and just get there. But that's, nature doesn't like that. Nature wants you to walk through the hills on a

curvy path by a waterfall and stare at the roses. You know, and the, the, the path to leadership is not going to be someone who got A's all the way through school and their parent was like a really successful lawyer and their dad knew a politician so they get to be the leader. It's a horrible route for a fucking leader. Like that's the worst leader possible. A leader like leaders come from the, they come from all over the planet and they're born that way on some level. They've been through the, I don't know, the fire and ice of adversity.

They've been homeless like you and understand those problems. But I guess I'm kind of birdwalking here. What I mean to say is that the- Why are you rambling, George? What do you say? I can't help, but it just happens, very. It just happens. I think that the soul has been rewilding as well,

the same way nature reclaimed that way. Thank you for bringing me back. What just happened? That was funny. I ate too many mushrooms, I think. What are you going to do? Yeah, it's okay. Now, that's the end of the interview.

Thank you, people, for watching us, and we will be back next week. Same time. I just get warmed up. I have like 30 questions laid out right here, but it's so much fun. Bring it on. Yeah. Fire them away. Okay.

Please. As the founder of the Octopus Movement, how do you navigate the delicate balance between celebrating the uniqueness of non-linear thinkers and fostering collaboration with specialists in a world that tends to compartmentalized talents? What kind of question is that? That, okay, let me put it in human speech. As someone who can, has a foot in both worlds, Perry, how do you help people that are from the linear world understand the value of nonlinear

thinkers? Like, how do you bridge that gap? Language. I think it's language. It's very simple. If you want to solve a problem, you need different thinking. End of story. Right.

So who's saying this? Joe Dispenter is saying this, right? Yeah. Our thoughts are the same thought. 90% of our thoughts are the same thoughts every single flipping day. Right? Right. So here you go with your company.

And you're doing things and you're giving yourself targets because that's what we do in a linear way. We need to achieve this. We need to go there and you're not going there. And then, okay, we have a management meeting. We're not on target. Something is going wrong. We need a solution. And I'm like, oh, shit.

So you have six managers. We're all thinking the same thing every single flipping day. And you're going to ask them, come up with an idea. No, it's not working. Okay. Let's hire a creative person. And then we go to a different location and we wear something else. because that helps us.

You know, normally we go to in a suit to the office, but then we go on Friday afternoon to a different location and we're wearing our weekend outfit. So we're a little bit more free in our thinking. And then let's think about how we're solving this. Well, same brain, different sweater. So it's not working. You know, you have the same thoughts every day.

So you need different thinking. Right. That's this, you need nonlinear thinking. You need different thinking because it's there. I strongly believe in the manifestation that it's there. End of story. Everything is there. Everything is connected.

Everything is energy. Everything is happening. So it's there. If you want something, it's there. That's the end. But if, if it's not working, you need different thinking. So this is the conversation that I have with education systems, with corporate world, with startups. If you want something, you need different thinking.

Otherwise, you would have it already. It's that simple, right? Yeah, it's true. You're in your circle of what fits well, and it's happening there. But if you want something that is outside of that circle, you need to do something. because everything that's happening in that circle is you doing what you do. So if you want to achieve something else, you need different thinking. Elon Musk understands that very well with his rockets coming back on Earth, right?

It's not where it's impossible. So we solve the unsolvable. Unsolvable is linear thinking. Right. Something is only unsolvable when you approach that in a linear. way. Otherwise, you don't know if it's unsolvable. Does it make sense? You draw the line and the end point of the line is not the solution, so you call it unsolvable. But nothing is unsolvable when you look at it with a nonlinear brain. We don't know if it's unsolvable. I think many people

would have said to Elon Musk, it's unsolvable to bring these rockets back on Earth and land them exactly at the same spot. He used different thinking to solve that problem. And he said, we're going to destroy many rockets, rockets, rockets, rockets, rockets, we're going to destroy many of them. We're going to lose a shitload of money. But we will figure it out. And because it doesn't work, because we failed every time,

it teaches us things. We have different thinking. If something fails, it creates different thinking. So we need different thinking to go somewhere. So you need nonlinear thinkers to go somewhere. And I think the solution is not to hire a bunch of nonlinear thinkers. Please do. You know, hire us.

We're great. But if you're a linear thinker and you hire a nonlinear thinker that creates chaos and innovation, you better be prepared. So that's carry in a linear structure. Some companies, startups, cool companies, they want that. So they can hire these kind of people. But if you're a traditional institution and you also want to have different thinking, then connect to the octopus movement and you can tap into our global nonlinear brain or a think tank. And you can give us what your unsolvable problem is. And we, like 40-50, amazing octopie from all over the world will come together and we have a system in our thing tank that goes very fast and we will solve your

unsolvable problem because we're different thinkers. Some people say think outside of the box. Do I hate that word? Because if you think outside of the box, your starting point is in the box. Otherwise, you cannot be outside of the box, right? Yeah. I'm not in the box. There is no box. I burn boxes. You kidding me?

So thinking outside of the box is a linear thinker. Only a linear thinker can think outside of the box. Otherwise, the starting point is wrong. So that's how we communicate with the linear world and nonlinear one and bring that together. Okay, we need. to work together. I used to think when I started the octopus movement, non-linear thinking will save the world. That's bullshit. That's not true at all. It's the linear systems that will save the world. It's not the non-linear thinkers. It's the systems that are already in place. It's the

companies that are already there. It's the amazing solutions that have been created. Almost every company started as a non-linear company, created something cool. You know, what happened with Nike? Nike went almost bankrupt and then they hired thinker, thinker, whatever his name is. And he was an architect and he designed a shoe that was so cool and everybody wanted. Different thinking, right? Everybody does it. It's so cool.

We need that. So that's how we do it. And I think the solution lies in the systems and not in different, in nonlinear thinking by itself, but bring these two together, awesome things will happen. Yeah. It's often not a brand new idea. It's often just the changing of the variables and the equation that give you a different answer. You know what I mean by that?

Like if you say the dog bit Johnny or Johnny bit the dog, all he did was change around some things. We get a radically different answer. You know what I mean? And it's interesting to think about that. As you were talking, it makes me think that maybe the, the, linear engines of the world, like maybe these giant corporations are the engines of the world. And when they buy up startups, they're buying up like the nonlinear thinkers. Like they're using the startups as like their own little think tanks in some ways.

Is that, maybe you could speak to them more about the idea of the octopus movement being a think tank for large corporations that need that outside idea or that injection of enthusiasm or that injection of dreams that are boom, shot mainline right into the vein of the linear thinking. And in a fast way, George. Yeah, I know. I've seen it. And not in a linear, like, okay, here comes the consultant and you pay a shitload of money and it takes forever.

And then you get a report and the report goes away because it's too complicated. It's too much or too radical. Right. It's, it's, let's have fun, people. Let's have fun. Even when you're a very serious corporation, Let's have fun.

Let's talk about whatever you need, bring it in, talk to these people. And these people, these nonlinear thinkers, let's talk about neurodiversity. I love that. We're not a neurodiversity movement. But when I look at people that are strongly in their nonlinear thinking, there is always some kind of form of neurodiversity present. And I understand why. It's not the superpowers of neurodiversity.

I think that's linear bullshit. I think every human has superpowers and have nothing to do with neurodiversity. The depth of some things that are linked to neurodiversity, we can talk about that. ADHD brings a lot of energy. You see things, you do things, you do things more, faster. That's, I get it, but it's not the superpower of neurodiversity. What happened is when we go back to linear thinking and the fear of looking at your mental state, a lot of people with neurodiversity because they don't fit in the system

were forced to look at their own mental state over and over and over. I have dyslexia, severe dyslexia. My time at school was horrible, right? So the only thing I can think about is I'm stupid. It's me. I'm wrong. It's horrible. I get these results back from the teachers.

This is wrong. This is wrong. Not wrong because I'm giving the wrong answer for history, but it's wrong because I make spelling mistakes. And it's a red pen. You know, it's wrong. So what do you do? You start looking at your own mental state. How do you respond to that?

How do you feel what happens? So it creates the linear system created nonlinear thinkers out of people with neurodiversity because we're more capable of looking at our own mental state better than. neurotypical people where they're not being challenged to look at their mental state. That's why nonlinear thinkers are so interesting. And that's also why there is a connection between nonlinear thinking and neurodiversity. I'm not saying linear thinkers, shut up thinking. I'm not saying that nonlinear thinkers are people with neurodiversity.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying there's a correlation there. Something is happening there, right? This explains why some people. people cannot escape their nonlinear thinking in the daily life. It's thanks to what they have learned as someone with neurodiversity to allow chaos a little bit more, to look at themselves more into their mental state. And that's the link with neurodiversity.

It's not about superpowers. Everybody has superpowers. It's ridiculous. You know, we have to hire people with neurodipers. diversity because they have superpowers. Oh, fuck off. No. Everybody has superpowers.

You just have to find them. You just need to know what it is. It's wrong to think that, okay, I'm now talking in circles. This is really cute. You know what I mean. I do. And how cool is it for big companies to tap into that? Yeah.

You don't have to reschedule your whole management team. or your employees, you can just tap into that global nonlinear brain and explore what it is. And then what happens is you explore what it is and you see, oh, this is cool. This is different thinking. Then it allows within your company, maybe it allows different thinking to come back because at least 20% of your employees have neurodiversity. At least 20% of your employees are very non-linear, but they're forced to stay very linear because that's the system in your company.

But you have these thinkers in your organization. So I just hope when you tap into our global nonlinear brain, something triggers and you see what's happening, then you might be thinking in a different way. And every time I get interviewed, people say to me, so what do you want to achieve? I want to achieve that there is a nonlinear manager in every company organization, government.

Someone who can press the button and say, I stop the system now. Let's reorganize for that person, that client, whatever. And then when it works, the system goes back on. And it's that simple. It almost sounds contagious to me on some level. Like if you think about the aspect of someone, be it a corporation or someone with a problem, going to a different culture. It's almost like going to another culture and asking,

hey, I have this problem. And you go to this other culture and you ask them. And they give you back a whole different answer than you thought was even possible. You know, and on some ways, when you get that answer and you bring it back to your people, it does change the way they think. It helps them snap outside of the,

because a lot of the times what happens is like an echo chamber. When we're taught all the rules, we begin thinking the same way we were conditioned. So when you inject a new idea into there, you inject a new pathway for people to start thinking on some level. What do you think about, what do you think about? Wait, before you go to the next question. I want to write down what Jeff is saying.

I like that. Jeff, thank you. So keep, I'm writing this down. I think it's really cool. Keep linear course by using non-linear thinking. Brilliant. Right? Yeah, phenomenal.

I like that. Like, how can that, since it's up right there, how can that be used in, in, what do you think about that off the top of your head? Well, I think it's very much linked to the beauty between thoughts. This is, this is something that I, that I'm so excited about. It's, you know, people will ask me, so, you know, what is nonlinear thinking? I can't answer that. What is linear thinking? I can answer that, right?

Linear thinking is like a pendulum going from left to right, and that's the only movement that's possible, and it's adding second to second, and it creates minutes. That's linear thinking, right? So what is non-linear thinking? The other thing. And in order to, and I like that, the linear course is your linear path where you want to go. And maybe we are now in a time of life where, focus is no longer the biggest asset. People would say if you focus, you get there.

You focus in a straight line. You forget about everything and you get there. The problem only is with focus, we see this. Companies doing this focus. Shareholder's value is the focus. So in this focus, we're destroying the planet. In this focus, we're destroying human beings. I don't get it why we're creating products in this world.

that are causing cancer. Teflon? Everybody knows this story. Yeah. So why is every single flipping pan I see in the shop, frying pan, why still does it have a teflon layer, that when you heat that very high and you do that because it's a frying pan, you know, it's not a cooking pan.

You're not boiling rice in it. That's true. Why are we still sending that? Because we're focused on shareholder's value. This is where we want to go. And maybe we can grow the company if we start using nonlinear thinking and say, okay, Teflon was very cool. That was a very cool invention.

Wow. But we've learned that if you fry your stake in Teflon, it kills you. So we need to solve this problem. Right? Yeah, totally. So we need nonlinear thinking to keep the linear course of that company and keep growing and and keep sustaining a cool future for your employees, for your whatever, the whole culture around your company.

You want to keep that in balance. So you need nonlinear thinking. You need that to keep going. Because if you just focus and you don't care about the other things and you don't see them, we can't go on like that, George. We can't. This is just one simple, you know, one simple little thing. But look look what linear thinking, you know, it created the whole climate change. We know what's happening and we're not doing anything.

thing. Yeah. You and I spoke previously about Ian McGilchrist's work, about left brain, right brain. Yeah. Do you think it's possible that what we're seeing is just a natural evolution from sort of a left brain linear thinking to more of a multi-potentiate to more, like maybe that's what's happening. Maybe that's what this awakening is all about. It's beginning to see it like that. Yeah. I hope so. Well, it's happening in my world, but, you know, oh, the hell am I? My world is very small. So that's also interesting because of the algorithms, right? It's so cool. What you see, you think that's your world because the algorithms are helping you to show

whatever you find interesting when you're on social media and whatnot. So that's your world. Yeah, I find that always fascinating. What do we really see? What's really happening? So what I'm seeing is not something you're seeing, maybe, or someone else is seeing. Am I seeing the same things as a very linear thinker who has everything under control,

beautiful house, you know, swimming pool, a good job, pension. Everything is well organized, working every day, happy. He or she sees the world totally different from me. Thanks to the algorithms. Thanks to everything. Thanks to your own algorithms. Everything. that's why we need to use nonlinear thinking to keep a linear course i like that jeff well done jeff

that was it was well said you know it is it really is you have if you look back to where you started and now you have a like a documentary coming out we should talk about that like how are you how do you find yourself navigating this pathway like it's been a really really amazing rise. And there's a lot of people, I'm sure that your path forward is ever changing with the amount of tension you get, with the friends and family and stuff like that. Like, how do you, how do you relate to the world moving forward being in the position you're in? Not in a different way than when I was homeless. Yeah, I don't know how to answer your question. I don't know. How do I relate to everything what's

happening. Yeah. Has it changed from being homeless? No. That's interesting. That's fascinating, right? Because we think everything changes. But you're, it's the same with growing older. I don't know how it works with you, but I live in a 48 year old system. But my thinking is the same as when I was 21, right? There's nothing changing. The things that are changing is there's more knowledge. I've read more books. I've met more people.

So you become wiser. Yes. But the thinking, you know, the thoughts, you can, I'm amazed. I can give answers now and I'm listening to myself and I'm thinking, really? Where is that coming from? Cool. Am I saying that? Yeah.

But you're still the same person. And I think this is the same with success. It doesn't matter. But it's interesting because it opens doors. People want to talk to you. It creates possibilities of doing things. What you always, sorry, dreamt of. It's easier to connect.

That's a difference. Because in the beginning, you know, I never wanted to convince people. I when I was homeless I made a few rules with myself. I wanted to be me again. You know, no crazy expectations I have to do this and have to do that in order to be happy. I just wanted to be an artist. Just wanted to be myself.

And I don't want to convince people because I notice that every time I convince people, it fires back to me. Always. It hit me on the nose or how do you say that? It's always a problem. And I was very good in convincing people. I'm not doing that anymore because maybe that's karma what everybody is talking about. Don't convince people because it will circle back to you like a boomerang.

Always in my life, I fucked up many things. It's really stupid. Trying to convince in order to get what I want because I thought that would be good for me because that would create an image that I needed. Bullshit. no you know it's

this is me I have nail polish I'm I have dyslexia I make mistakes when I write things I'm happy you know

I have too much energy I love people I see good in every single human being I find them all fascinating

I forget to do things I fuck up things in my calendar I just had missed a meeting with Howard just now like oh shit

something you know My life is a mess. I forget to pay bills sometimes. That's what I do. Sorry. And did it now change? Because I'm now doing something that really suits me.

No, not really. Just serving the wave. Yeah. That's a great analogy. It's a great analogy to kind of go with life. What about, so this new documentary you have coming out, the beauty between thoughts. is it interesting to I think it was Samuel Clemens

who said that the the written word is the carcass of the spoken word but it speaks to the idea of different modalities of language and you have been speaking to a lot of different people how is it now like do you perceive your message different now that there's a documentary out there or does it shift the message at all

on some level or have you no it becomes more clear I think what we do what we now have in the movie so in the beginning I was saying I don't know what I'm doing. I just want to have one billion nonlinear thinkers together and we will solve some problems. That's the start, right?

And now we have a human mycelium of nonlinear thinkers solving the unsolvable for a sustainable future. Bang, very linear, but it's very clear, right? And some people might say, well, human mycelium is not clear, nonlinear thinking is not clear. But for me, this is clear. So it's always been there, but now the language, fits and I'm super excited about the title, the beauty between thoughts.

It fits so well what nonlinear thinking means because I'm asking people now, the trailer is out. You can see the trailer, the movie will come out in February in a few weeks, three weeks time or something. So then you can see the documentary. It is about nonlinear thinking and it is, about how nonlinear thinking can solve the unsolvable. And it's about my life and what I did and they're filming me and I'm rambling about all kinds of stuff. And hopefully in the documentary, it triggers something with you. But that's the beauty between thoughts.

I'm so excited about it because I can ask people now. I found the language to ask them, where are you between thoughts? And if you're able to answer that, you're immediately in the emptiness between thoughts. And when you're in the emptiness between thoughts, you are in nonlinear thinking. And I'm so excited about it because I couldn't explain this for three years. I remember so well when I had the discovery for myself, I'm a nonlinear thinking thinker in a linear world. I get what's going wrong. I said to my girlfriend, yeah, I get it now.

So clear to me. And she said, what? And I said, I can't explain. I can't. I didn't have the language for it. And now I found the language. And that's the documentary. So for me, it means the world, this documentary.

It makes me cry. It makes me emotional. It changes for me. everything because after three years of working my ass off from early morning until midnight every day everything is about the octopus movement because I can feel we can do something that is important for my kids and their kids and now I found it's there thanks to the documentary I found a way to use linear language to describe what I was talking about at my girlfriend's place when I said, it's so clear to me now,

but I can describe what it is. And now I can. It's the beauty between thoughts. It's the emptiness between thoughts that is nonlinear thinking that creates everything, George. That's where the creation comes from. That's what creativity is. That's what innovation is. That's what language is. That's what all of a sudden pops up in your mind. You know, and like, that's it. That's what love is. Let's talk about the most beautiful thing. That's what love is.

It's the beauty between thoughts. That's when we fall in love. It's the emptiness between thoughts where we can feel the connection so strongly and we go nuts. You know, that's it. That's it. And I'm so excited about it. And now, and I, thanks. to the trailer that is out there now, I'm asking people, where are you between thoughts?

Share us your space between thoughts. People are sending me their answers and I'm asking them to send a selfie with their eyes closed. Someone did that for me. So I didn't create anything. I got a message from someone who saw the trailer and he shared his beauty between thoughts with a selfie with his eyes closed. like I'm I'm there and I thought it was so beautiful that I started asking everybody to do that and to send it and that and we share that on the Instagram account and the Facebook page of the

documentary I send it to the to the documentary maker and film the the musician Tain van Vachimst is he's a young filmmaker awesome dude he's 20 he is you know brilliant in his creativity he understands and and he created this documentary and it's it's so much fun to work with him and and when he creates his music in the trailer when you hear the music that's him at his how do you call that thing dutch it's uh i don't even know the word in dutch whatever he plays his instrument it sounds so cool it's so beautiful and then someone sends me a picture with their thoughts and it triggers that's the nonlinear way to go. You know, you can think in a marketing way, how are we going to create something around this documentary? Hell, I don't know, just watch the, watch the trailer people.

And then he sent me that. And I thought, yeah, that's it. And now we're doing that. And people are sending me their thoughts every day. Their thoughts about the beautiness between their thoughts. Cool, eh? So they're sending me linear language about the emptiness between thoughts. That's exciting by itself already, George. It is. It almost sounds like there is a exchange of emotions being happening. You know what I mean? Like it's triggering an exchange of emotions on some level, which is more than words,

you know, people are sending you experiences. And maybe that, maybe the trailer is having that kind of effect on people. Yeah. the beauty between thoughts i think about it every day now yeah now and i have this conversation with myself as well when i'm stressed out um my father is dying it's really a horrible uh journey he's amazing and i and and it's sad to see him go like this and the family and and take care of my mother and my sister and everything that's happening in the movement it's exploding new founding members or joining every single day cool founding members

stewards right we're very happy with him and and everybody wants to talk to me and everybody want and i want to answer everything and i made the promise with myself whatever the flip happens with the octopus movement i will be there because i was so annoyed when i started to create project 398 tell you later about that that i reached out to some people that i thought were very cool and i I wanted them in the book. And I know them because they're successful. So a lot of people know them. And you reach out to them and there's no reply, nothing.

And I promised with myself, whatever happens, we're human connections. I will reply. I don't know how to solve that problem when it's too much, but I don't care. Let's, let's solve this. So I have, I have linear problems every day. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm stressed out. I'm worried.

I'm scared. I'm insecure. I'm afraid. You know, everything. And when that happens, when I'm thinking, oh, shit, I don't have enough time. Then I'm, and then I'm having a conversation with myself now. I don't have enough time. That's a thought.

And then the other thought is, I can't finish that. And then I'm thinking, okay, what's between these two thoughts? And it, and it, like, yeah, let it go. It's, it's okay. And that's for me, the beauty between thoughts. And it's, I saw this exercise once regarding to meditation, and I really like that. It's a simple trick in meditation.

When you meditate or when you want to meditate or whatever, you sit down and you relax, you let things go. And then meditation is very simple. You just need to quiet down the brain. It needs to shut the fuck up, George. It's talking to you all day. And when you meditate, you just say, there's not beauty between thoughts.

It's empty space for a long time. It's really helpful. Everybody knows it's helpful. So why not focus on that empty space between thoughts? It's a kind of meditation. And I saw this exercise when you go into meditative state and you can't make it happen, you know, because you quiet down.

And then the first thing your brain does, yes, it's quiet. Party time, we did it. And I say, shit, shut up. I want things to be quiet. But what you can do is you can ask your brain. So what is your next thought? Your brain can't handle that. Isn't that cool?

So when you go into meditation, so what's the next thought? It's quiet immediately. Your brain doesn't know what the next thought is. Cool, huh? And that's the beauty between thoughts for me. And I think if we if we can dive into this language together, that we can talk about this at schools as well, right? We can talk about nonlinear thinking and how to get there and how to use that when you make a drawing or you make a poem or you have to write some whatever.

That school is going to teach you how to get into that state of mind where creativity flows why are we not learning that at school we had a at the international school where my kids go or my kids went in some city i won't call any names that's wrong to do that but they had an art teacher he was so flipping linear parents he would drive parents nuts kids would come into his art class this is really george when i think about it now it's so ridiculous so kids would come into his art class all excited because they were drawing all the time, we're so happy in drawing. My kids as well. And he was so fucking linear.

His way of drawing was, if you draw something, it needs to go exactly like this and this and this. He destroyed so many kids. Yeah. And the purpose of school is the opposite. it. So I wish I could create a curriculum for a school somewhere and the curriculum is the beauty between thoughts and let's teach kids the beauty between thoughts so they can use that. They know what it is and they can you can have an essay about this. You can you can grade the beauty between thoughts. You can you can approach this in a very linear.

way, you can ask questions about that. It would be so cool to learn something about the beauty between thoughts, nonlinear thinking, would be so cool. Yeah, I agree. I think that there's a imagination is way more important than almost anything else. You know, how can we create a better future unless we can imagine it? And I think imagination starts at a young age like that. When is the, so we know that the trailer is already out.

you can see the links in the show notes but it's going to come out in february is it going to be where can people find it or when is the launch date i have no idea so the artist is editing at the moment okay all right and and we're doing that together so it's so much fun for me i've always wanted to create a documentary so we're doing this together and and he's awesome and he likes to use my nonlinear thinking and then he sends me something like how does that's like yeah That's it. Or, wow, it would be cool if we could trigger this in a different way or whatever. It's coming.

It's coming in February, for sure. People will be able to watch it. I don't know how we're talking to different people. The trailer triggered a lot. And there's even a company in L.A. interested in looking at, you know, the rights, the documentary. and it should be on Netflix or not. I don't care.

You know, it's it's our artwork and it will be out there. Where they can find it, we will let everybody know. If Netflix doesn't want it or Apple TV or all of the, I don't, I don't care. It's going to be out there. And at least at YouTube, so everybody can see it. And it's going to be an experience, you know, the beauty between thoughts. It is what it is. And Thomas was just saying before this, who can say to have a think tank with 30, 40 people

discussing the linearity of time. We did that in our previous think tank. We had a think tank about time, how, what is time, you know, and we love to do that, create these kind of thing tanks, not solving any problems, but just rethinking things. What is time and how does it work? So that was Thomas saying that. And Thomas is a think tank member. I'm always happy with his thinking because he has different thinking.

And he's an amazing dude. The beauty between thoughts. February, it's coming out. It will be available wherever it needs to be available. we will see it's going to be beautiful, interesting. And for me, this is for me a huge thing, really huge. Yeah, it seems like sort of like a flagship or an introduction into the octopus movement for a lot of people. You know, it could be a great way for people that, it seems like the next step in raising a flag and like, hey, look, look what's over here.

Like look what's possible for people who may have been to grow up with dyslexia or maybe that had some challenges or some things like that. It's is it how is the process of creating? Do you find that to be something that is challenging with with some of the things that you've grown up with? Was it difficult to find the right person to work with? No, he came to me. He asked me. He said, can I make a documentary about you? Yeah, sure.

Let's do this. And then they started as camera crew and everything. And I was thinking, oh, fuck, what am I doing? because it's this is not this is not a documentary to just tell a story this is this is a a glimpse glimpse glimpse uh into my soul and you know it's it's it's it's i'm very naked not literally yeah don't worry but vulnerable it's vulnerable scary yeah Sure. So scary.

But I need to do it. It's like a poem where you share your deepest emotions and deepest thoughts and feelings. And that's what it is. And it's not just, you know, the documentary of IKEA saying that they're using whatever kind of wood and they're not. then that's that's a different thing was it was so much fun to do this it was so much fun because you can be creative and um the only difficulty i thought was when the camera crew is there action right let's do it and i remember one day i was not doing well at all and there is the whole team And we're filming.

It's not working. It's, I feel horrible. I'm not happy. I'm and that's, so that was perfect because that's there as well. You know, and there's one moment where I'm looking into the camera and I'm crying. That's not the director saying, can you cry into the camera? But this is just me, you know, not having a good day or I felt horrible. and I said, guys, I don't know.

I'm not feeling well. And that's a part of everything as well. So it was so much fun creating this. It was so cool. I loved it. It's really awesome. And I hope we can do this more often, that we can do this, you know,

that we can create other documentaries as well together because 10, 20 years old, musician, filmmaker, we are really, you know, really enjoy working together. We understand each other. He is an octopus as well. He's very nonlinear. That's why he came to me like, okay, I want to do a documentary on your nonlinear thinking. It's, you know, if you can create art together with someone and you're, you understand each other and you can create something together.

and it's really a beautiful dance. Yeah, it's awesome. So it was very easy to do it and very difficult. In some ways, like the documentary is almost as much about the filmmaker as it is about the content of it. You know, and I love the passion you use to describe it. And you do it a lot. Like you, I see it in the emails and I see it in that. Like I think it's imperative that people understand the art of co-creation.

I think that's what's going to make the film so beautiful. Is that chemistry between? each other is that language between one another it's really cool to see and i hope that that is i mean there's no doubt in my mind that i've already seen what it can't hold that should be the future going forward is people that love working together finding other people that they love working together with like that's what creates success right yeah without you know expectations without let's do this and and we're when we started with the documentary It was also not like, oh, let's create a documentary that helps the octopus movement.

It's not about the, I don't talk about the octopus movement at all in the documentary. It's not about the octopus movement. And it is about the octopus move. It is creating something that is beautiful for Tain and me. We're creating something together. And we just love it what we have done because we were trying to capture something beautiful, something pure. And that's what we did.

And hopefully it can trigger other people in their thinking. And, you know, if it, if it can help someone to be aware of the beauty between their thoughts and like, okay, you know, everything is falling apart and everything is going wrong. But I discovered that the emptiness between all these thoughts that are horrible, that's where I really am.

You know, that's also in Buddhism. You're not suffering. There is no suffering. And that's the same thing with that emptiness between thoughts. So if we can trigger a few people that can discover that, that would make me very happy. Yeah, I think that that's what great art does. It reaches out through the canvas or reaches out through the screen. and it breathes life into other people's life in some ways.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be an amazing thing. I'm super stoked to talk to you, Perry. I'm a proud octopus member, and I have met so many cool people in the different rooms and the different meetups, and there's so many talented people that you've brought together. And the idea of relationships is profound,

and I would encourage anybody who find themselves in a non-linear state. Like if you found yourself, like go to the octopus movement and look and see what it's about. Reach out to everybody and it's such a wonderful community. And I want to turn it back to you though for a man.

Like where can people find you? Before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you have coming up? Like, what are you excited? But I know we talked a little bit about the movie, but what else is coming up? You have like a million projects coming up, whether it's the book, the 398, the movie,

the 15 different think tanks, Fortune 500 companies. Is there anything in particular that like that you got coming up immediately that you want people to know about? Well, I'm, I'm most excited about the fact that we're solving the unsolvable. And I'm so excited about the fact that I can feel that we're going to solve something very important very soon. My linear thinking now says you shouldn't be saying that because then it means it's not there. It's funny how that works, right? This is how I feel.

And maybe we're, it's happening. So what am I most excited about? Everything and nothing. It's not a specific project. Yes, the movie. That's very important to me. The book, Project 398. It's an art book with 398 non-linear thinkers in it.

Yeah, it's so cool because it's going to have a website and an exhibition with the book. And when I ask people to be in the book, I ask them to fill out the form and I want to know all kinds of stuff, right? And I'm going to color code all the different information. So as a visitor on the website of Project 398, you can follow the color green. and then you can read all these stories and see all these people, but you have no clue what the color green means. So maybe the color green means they all have a podcast. I don't know.

But you can't read that in their stories because the story is about just a nonlinear story. So this art project for me is so important because it creates also that nonlinear space where, okay, I'm following green. So it needs to mean something. Yeah, it means something, but you will never know. It will freak people out, I'm sure. And they will follow the color green thinking, okay, what do they have in common? I want to find it.

I'm pretty sure I'm getting messages then. I know what the color green is, right? It's going to be a party. It's going to be joy and it's like a game. But I'm very excited about that. And we have a few plans for the people in Project 390s. what we were going to do. One of the plans is that everyone in the book will receive a disposable camera from me.

And I will ask them to just take pictures, whatever, send it back to me. And we have a photo exhibition based on Project 398 and bring it all together. And I love photography. For me, photography is everything that's also linked to the documentary, the imaging, the camera position. and how we see things is important. Excited about what we're doing with our thing tanks. I'm excited about the founding members that are going to be there that we don't know that are going to be there.

It's always a nice surprise when all of a sudden a new founding member joined. Like, where are you coming from? Who are you? And then you see someone like Youngboe. Yeah. Amazing what he does. And he's like, wow, welcome to our family. So I'm so excited about the other 150 founding members that are still coming.

And then we stop. That's a very linear decision, but we only have 250 founding members. And then it's the end of it. That's the inner family. That's the inner group that's important for the octopus movement. I'm excited about everything that I don't know is coming yet. Yeah. I think that's a great metaphor for life to be excited about the twists and turns that are coming your way.

Maybe that's one of the, has that sort of been something that's always fueled you? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember when we were as expats going to China and with our two kids and we went to China. You know, what do you know? You're Dutch. You don't know anything. You're European. You go to China. What the hell do you know about China? We didn't know anything. And then all of a sudden, you live in Beijing. So cool. I loved it, George. I thought it was absolutely wonderful to go into that space of not knowing. I just love that. And I've seen a lot of expats who don't love that. There are expats because of the system, because of the beans you will make a shitload of money and a company pays every. everything for you. And it means your career is going up. So that's why they love to be an expat. My wife was the expat. I was the training spouse. Is that how you call that? I was in the best position ever. You know, it wasn't about my career. It wasn't about the money.

It wasn't about anything. It was about the unexpected. It was about waking up in Beijing all of a sudden. What the hell am I doing here? Right. I love that. It's interesting. When I hear your stories like that, I'm immediately drawn to the idea of the beauty between two thoughts. Like you explain that in your storytelling. Like, you're in Beijing. You're not this person, but you're aware. Like, that sounds a lot to me, like, the beauty between two thoughts.

Yeah. Being aware. Yeah, right? Yeah. Awareness. Maybe raw awareness might be something that I think about when I think. think about the power between or the beauty between two thoughts. It's impressive. It's wonderful. I'm going to be mindful of your time though, Perry. I've already stole you away for about a

hour and a half here. So, you know, I'm truly thankful for the time that we've been together and the things that are coming up in the movement. And everybody from Jeff States, Thomas Hutchison, Janice, Michelle, I want you to go check out Michelle Cheyenne's page about, you know, the wisdom keeper she got some really cool stuff over there right pari i i love wisdom right wisdom is interesting wisdom is curiosity oh are we still here yeah wisdom is wisdom is curiosity we at the movement we yeah we have one we have that tomorrow again every week we have a post on lincoln and facebook why might this be wise i love that i i met someone yeah and um see He's a teacher in the US and she's awesome.

And I asked her, I said, well, as a teacher, what was the thing that you liked the most, what you've done? And she said, well, we did a course of why might this be wise and we would ask kids why this might be wise. And then they had to do research to understand why something is wise. And I said, oh, let's do this.

So now every week on Wednesday, I post, why might this be wise? And then C selects a, how do you call that, a indigenous, it's a saying, but that's not how you say it. I can't find the word. Like an anecdote, but that's not right. Yeah, yeah, it's a verb, verb kind of thing. I don't know, whatever. We share that and then we ask people, why might this. be wise you know i i i just love that kind of things and and and michel's community the wisdom seekers

wisdom seekers is is about that why might this be wise why is something wise but it's interesting to think about wise wisdom what is wisdom you know and and have different angles of thoughts and and whatnot so yeah and jeff thank you jeff for saying all these wise things, right? And give me the inspiration of keep linear course by using nonlinear thinking. Yeah. Jeff. I love that.

So many cool people. Yeah, me too. It's inspiring. But I'll just keep talking to you if I don't let you go right now. So I really am thankful to everybody, to all the octopus movement people out there. Thank you so much. The community is amazing. If you find yourself out there and you're listening to this and you're interested,

go down to the show notes and check out the documentary on the trailer. will be in the show notes down there. I guarantee you're going to watch. You'll probably watch it like five times. It's mind blowing, and it's cool to see the way in which the nonlinear mind is sort of permeating the world in which we live today. So let me shoot it back to you one last time, but before you go, is there any of the last word you have to say before we say goodbye to the people?

Yeah, you were asking me, where can people reach you? I never answered. Yes. Oh, yeah, please. Go to the octopus movement.org. Go to the beauty between thoughts.com. go to pick my neurodegersbrain.com, go to LinkedIn, go to Facebook,

go to Twitter, no, not Twitter, not whatever, I'm everywhere. If you just search for the octopus movement, you will find me. And I strongly believe in the human connection. So if you want to have a conversation, if you're thinking, okay, I want to talk to this dude with this horrible Dutch accent.

And I want to have a one-on-one, you can book me on pick my brain.world. You can find me there. Love that platform. And then you can just book me for 20 minutes and we're in the Zoom call together. And let's connect and let's discover and let's find wisdom or work together

or create something together or whatever. So you can find me there. And if you want to know more about the octopus movement, send me an email or info at the octopus movement.org. All very simple and straightforward. Just let us know what your thoughts are. And if you want to answer the question, where are you between thoughts? Share that with us.

So we can post your selfie with your eyes closed and your answer to the question, where are you between thoughts on the Instagram page and Facebook page of the documentary? Or don't do anything and just say, that was fun. Thank you, Perry. Have a nice life. That's also fine, you know. I would recommend everybody do it. Go book the 20 minutes.

That's what I did. That's how I met you. You and I had a really cool job. Yeah. And if you want to be in the think tank, you become a member of the Octopus Move. It's for free. Register on the website and then you select,

I want to be a think tank member. And then cool, you're in the database. You're in the system. And then every time we have a think tank, you get an invite. Like, hey, we're thinking about this. What do you think? Are you joining us?

Is it the right time and space to do? it and then you you're there and if we do something in a think tank for the octopus movement like rethinking intelligence download that white paper it's on our website we did a whole two-hour session on what is intelligence and then we write a white paper about it and your name is on the white paper because you were in the think tank it's because of you we've created this white paper join the think tank or not just swim with the other octopi or just lurk in what we're doing it's Yeah, I can't I can't recommend enough how many cool people are there and the ideas that come out of it and just being to swimming around over there is really amazing. So ladies and gentlemen, I hope that you have a tremendous day.

I hope the world continues to sing for you. Do yourself a huge favor. Check out the octopus movement. Check out Perry's new documentary. The link will be in the show and it's in there. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you have a beautiful day. Hang on briefly afterwards.

Pray I'll speak to you shortly afterwards. but to everybody else, Aloha. Aloha.