TrueLife - Quantum Biology - Dr. Thomas Verny

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

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Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. I always... Okay, there we go, sorry. I have always said I am not a physicist.

everything that I know about quantum mechanics, I had to learn on my own. I did not take any courses in it. And it has been a difficult ride, but beginning to understand a little bit about it, it really puts everything that we have learned in school in terms of physics and mathematics sort of head up, right? It converts, reverts. It just turns upside down everything that we know about physics. For example, the fact that thoughts seem to be able to travel much faster than the speed of light.

And according to Einstein and every physicist who has followed him ever since, nothing moves faster. than the speed of light. But thoughts do. Thoughts do. And one of the, you know, one of the interesting things about thoughts is, as again I describe it by book, sometimes when you have twins or when you have people

who are very close, emotionally tied to each other, suddenly when there is something really, really upsetting, when there's some kind of a trauma, traumatic event or some kind of a crisis, you know, twin Peter will suddenly feel sick to his stomach and be absolutely certain that somehow something is happening to his brother Joe. And 10 minutes later, Joe's mother calls saying Joe has been in an accident. How does that happen?

Nobody can explain that, but certainly quantum mechanics comes closer to it than anybody else because we know in quantum mechanics that two particles, which at one time we're together, no matter how far apart they are, they are still in contact with each other. And so if you change the location or change the structure in some way of one proton or electron or one of those subatomic particles.

The other one will immediately, immediately respond. And these experiments have been done. They have been proven to be correct. And nobody knows yet how to explain it. Yeah. In your book you even talk about, I think it was Pons work where he did it be a satellite. like the quantum entanglement, from a satellite down to Earth, he was able to show that. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Well, yes. You know, I'm not on very firm ground on that one. But entanglement is one of those expressions that defines the connection between two particles that at one time we're one. And once you separate them, they are. still connected. And, you know, it's, I think, I think that's sort of one of the, one of the pieces of research that seems to indicate to me, you know, that the mind, that the mind is much more than material.

Like, the mind has to be energetic. One of the examples that sort of supports that is our near-death experiences, for example, okay? I have actually, this is God's honest truth when I was an intern a thousand years ago. When I was an intern, I was in the room as a patient who suddenly had a heart. attack and he died. His pulse stopped. His heart had stopped. He stopped breathing. He was dead. And I had learned by that time that if that happens, you pick up a, you pick up some adrenaline, put it into a... And put it right into the heart of the patient. you just plunge it into the heart of the patient.

I mean, after all, he's dead, right? So it's not going to feel much. Well, I did that. I did that. And that was before we had these heart thumpers that they have now. So I put the adrenaline in. I put it into his heart. And he came back.

He came back to, he came back. he came back to life. It was the most amazing thing. But what was most amazing was, you know, that then he described to me exactly what had happened in the room, like when I called other doctors in, nurses rushed in, et cetera, et cetera. He was able to describe that in every detail. And he was dead for all.

Wow. Right? And he described, and then since then I've read many other. cases like that where people describe the happenings in the room as if they were sort of floating above themselves and so you know what do you make of that it sounds like as if his soul had left him and was still observing what was going on down there you know is somebody going to get me back to life or is this that you know so i think that I think that when you look at phenomena like that and you look at the quantum mechanics and entangled particles and superposition and all those things, when you look at the communication between twins, that would all indicate to me that the mind is definitely related to the body.

that it's definitely connected to the body, but it's also more than that. It's it's it's it's it's something spiritual, something energetic. And you know, without getting religious or anything, it just seems to me that that it's it's something that in a way can give us hope because although the body may die, whatever constitutes the mind may not. And so there is there's some hope, I think, of some kind of a life continuing after we have lived our life down here in one way and perhaps we continue in some other way. Absolutely.

And I just want everybody who's listening to this or watching this to know that the book is called The Embodied Mind by Dr. Thomas Verney. And do yourself a huge favor and pick it up. It's a wonderful, wonderful book. And, you know, at the end, you sum up the book. I feel like you got us, you gave us back this, this idea of, the embodied mind hypothesis allows for the agency of free will and empowers each of us to fully live up to our potential by way of self-regulation rather than the exigencies of an unpredictable environment. That is so beautiful. That's exactly what the book does, ladies and gentlemen. You must get it and read it. It is mind-blowing. But yes, I do believe that this

particular situation gives us hope for something that comes after. It's almost like you can see in the doorway. To me, I'm just curious to get your thoughts on this. Some of these over OBEs, out-of-body experiences or N-D-E's near-death experiences, they seem to me to be eerily similar to a really high-dose psychedelic experience. People that have taken a really high dose of psilocybin or ayahuasca, myself included, I have felt like I have got to peer over the edge and look into this out-of-body realm. And some of these accounts that I read are so similar. Do you have a take on that as far as the psychedelic experience?

from every corner of the world, you know, they are similar, which is really quite amazing, you know, whether it's from South America, whether it's from Australia. All these experiences are very similar. So conservative, old-fashioned scientists, doctors, whatever, they explain it by the fact that there's something in our brain that sort of gives us, kind of psychedelic experiences when we are short in oxygen and that it's just sign of shortness of breast, shortness of oxygen, too much carbon dioxide, all kinds of chemicals perhaps get mixed up in the brain, and so you have these visions. Of course, that's not an explanation.

It's not an explanation because why would you have those particular visions, right? Right, right. You could just as easily be having visions of, I don't know, eating a hamburger. There's visions of eating a hamburger, not even a McDonald's hamburger. So, you know, there has to be a reason for that. And I was thinking of also there is a wonderful movie, a documentary. It's called Octopus My Teacher. It's on YouTube.

It's on Netflix. It's highly, highly, highly recommended. It's a wonderful movie. And what it's about is that this Australian man goes diving one day, and he comes across an octopus, and there's no other way of putting it. They start having a relationship. Like, he is so impressed by the octopus, the feelings that he gets from the octopus, that he starts going down there every day.

And he does that for a year. every day for a year. And what he says and the impact that it had on him is really moving. It's wonderful. And the reason I'm raising that, apart from the fact that it's really well with watching, is because what he discovers is that the relationship between us and other animals is so important. And yet, you know, I think that the Bible has really done a lot of harm when it says something to the effect of, you know, on the sixth day, God created man and then he rested, something like that. And he put a man in charge of the world or to rule all the other beasts or whatever.

I think that is toxic. Okay. I think that that kind of message, that kind of message has separated us from other living beings. And it has separated us from the world. Like we are supposed to rule the world instead of nurture it and take care of. of it. So I think that, you know, and that has been with us, you know, for 2,000 years. And the harm that it has done is incredible. And we would not be, you know, polluting the world. And we would not be having wars and all that kind of stuff if we would have perhaps started

life off 50,000 years ago, whenever. on a firmer terrain, you know, on a more philosophical, more humanitarian level. You know, this is really a kind of a master slave mentality that we have inherited from the Bible, and it has not served as well. Yeah, the introduction of monotheism is a huge problem. People would be well to do to understand, at least in my opinion, You didn't come into this world. You came out of it.

And so you are partners with all the creations. You're like, and this brings us back to the embodied mind. And maybe the hammer off pinrose we were talking about. You can see in plants. You can see in the octopus. You can see the way that a plant grows to a certain height and then bears fruit pointing 30 degrees towards the sun. Like that's a type of language. You know, the way in which things grow are the way in which we grow or at least part thereof.

And we can learn so much. And we have cut ourselves off from so much learning because we want. And you could even argue that monotheism or this one God is where the ego came from. This idea that we have dominion over anything is ridiculous. Dominion. Yes, that's right. Yeah, dominion over everything. Yes.

Very, very wrong. Very wrong. And also, you know, it creates this mindset where one person or one person or one, one president or one God rules over everybody, right? Yep. You know, that's not democracy. You know, that's the very opposite of democracy. And, you know, here we are always talking about democracy, but we sure don't practice it.

Yeah, I'm not sure that we've ever had it, you know. I don't think we ever had it. And I think, you know, once in a while you hear women saying, well, if only women ran the world, I think women ran the world, it would be just as messy as it is now. Because it's human nature that needs to change. And of course, you know, that that was an interest of mind for a long time until I wrote the embedded mind. And, you know, I was very, very involved in better parenting and better pregnancies and improving best practices. And I do believe that if a child was spent nine months in the womb of a mother who was living in a healthy fashion and was not exposed to stress or anxieties or, you know, losses in her life, that child would be born a much more loving person than a child who is carried in the womb of a mother,

like now must be happening, let's say, in Ukraine, who is just constantly exposed to bombings and lack of food and danger all the time. I mean, that poor child is not going to be normal. Yeah, you know, if you look at the earth as a womb and these different children being born from different parts of the womb, it's like we're just perpetuating these wars, you know. It brings me to the story you tell. You told a story in your book about going to a nursery where some babies had name tags on their cribs and some didn't. Can you share that story as well? I'm impressed by how much you remember. It's a great book. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, many years ago, I went to the nursery, newborn nursery at one of the largest children's hospitals in the world in Toronto. And they were about 36 bassinets. And about half of them, I would say, about 18 out of 36. About 18 of them had names on them, you know, call me Johnny, call me Anne. But the other half, the 18, the other 18 or 17, whatever, close to that, did not have any names. And so I said to the head nurse who was showing me around, I said to her, how come those kids don't have any names? And she said, well, that's because the parents are afraid that they might give them a name and then the baby is going to do. die and that it's going to hurt them much more than if they just remain nameless.

So I thought to myself, this would be a wonderful research project because I will bet any amount of money, any amount of money, that the mortality and morbidity, meaning that the sickness and death of those children without names is much higher, much higher than the children who actually have names and whose parents come and say, how are you, Johnny, today? How are you, Anne? Whereas the nameless ones, the nameless ones are not receiving the vibrations, the vibrations, the love, the affection that a name signifies. I mean, there's such a difference between saying to someone, hey, you, or George, how are you? It's a world of difference. You feel seen when someone says George, right? Yes. And they know who you are,

and that allows you to sort of get to know them. But if you are just a nobody, as we were talking at the beginning of our interview today a little bit, if people just look through you as if you were cellophane, that doesn't create a good relationship. So I think, you know, in terms of our listeners, you know, what is the practical take on this? The practical take is that you've got to establish relationships with people and animals, and even objects, even objects. I mean, people have told me that they very often call their cars by some name. Yeah.

Right? Absolutely. Those cars behave better, you know, like, Johnny, don't run out of gas yet. Go on for another 10 miles. That's all I'm asking for. Is that asking too much? So, yeah, I think that relationships are important because of the vibrations that you put out in establishing the relationships. And that other people pick up on those vibrations.

And which takes me back to the heart, actually. We have not had a chance much to talk about the heart. You know, the heart has the largest of all the organs in our bodies, including the brain, the heart puts out a much stronger magnetoelectric force than the brain does. So when people say I fell in love or I like that person from the beginning, I suspect that the reason for that is because they were in sync in terms of their vibrational energy. When somebody says, my gut told me not to trust that person, but I still did, and boy, am I sorry. Always listen to your gut. Always listen to your gut.

And one of the, I think one of the bad things, for lack of a better. to them right now. One of the deplorable things that happens in our civilization is that we trust apparatuses, we trust objects more than we trust our gut or our heart, our instincts. We have just become so dependent on everything around us, cell phones, for example, you know? People sit down in restaurants, I'm sure you have seen it, they take out their cell phones and instead of talking to each other, they're taking their emails. Yeah. Yep. Why are you together? I mean, you know, you could do that at home. What do you need to go out, spend a lot of money in a restaurant, and just relate to yourself instead of the other person. So in terms of the heart, I think that the heart

really has some very special functions in terms of our self-hood, who we are, what we are, how we relate to people. I think that's one of the things that I would like people to realize as they read the embodied mind, that everything that we have, all our organs are very, very important and becoming aware of them will help those organs serve you better. Yeah. It made me think when you told this story and when I read that part in the book, my wife is Laotian and they, her cousin had passed away about a year ago and they did this really interesting thing when she passed away.

The whole family went over and for seven days they got together and they would chant, you know, they would get together in a group and then they would chant and kind of pray. And when you think about chanting, I think about breath work. And when I think about breathwork, I think about synchronizing the heart together. And it makes me want to cry. Like I get goosebumps just thinking about all the people you love synchronizing their heartbeat, thinking good thoughts of you. Like, it's so beautiful. And it's, it's knowledge that people today don't have it. You know, she comes from a different culture where they still embrace this knowledge. where maybe in the West, you know, we're on our cell phone sending emails.

I'm sorry they died. But here's this other group of people continuing to link their heartbeat, their thoughts together, to heal not only the person that's leaving, but to maybe heal themselves and whatnot. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. It's probably the reason that people still go to church because very often there is a choir. And especially, of course, if you go to black churches, you will get a much more involved audience. Wrong weird.

You know, well, all the parishioners. So the whole thing gets involved. And when I was in Sarasota a couple of weeks ago, We went to see a show which was called Black Broadway, and it was all about black actors on Broadway and what they produced, the music, the shows, things like that. It was very, very good. It was excellent.

There were only about five or six black people in the audience, although the black theater was performed by black actors. So I spoke to some people who are very much involved in the theater in Sarasota. And I said, how come that there's so few black people in the audience? And they said, because this is not their culture. They culture focuses on the church where they can chime in. so that when, you know, when the clergy person says something, they say, Amen, amen, you know, and so then the whole church kind of reverberated.

And I can see how good that would make the parishioners feel. But they feel that they can't do that in your regular theater because it's frowned upon. they don't come. They don't come up. We have the same, you know, I told you that I live here in Stratford. We have the same problem here. No matter what, how diverse the actors in our shows are, and they are very diverse. We have indigenous and we have black and every other color in the world, actors and actresses.

And still, very, very, very. very few black people come because it's just not part of their culture. And that they enjoy, and I can't blame them for it, you know, they enjoy the Sunday morning church, sermons and services, because they can participate, whereas we don't allow our audience to participate. Yeah. You know, it's like being in a life. or something, right? You have to be quiet. And why should that be? But that's how sort of our theater

has developed and their theater has developed in churches and it's different. Yeah, it's in some ways it makes me laugh. Like we trip up on all these different words like diversity. What's the difference between diversity and inequality? We should just change the word diversity to unique. And then we get away from all the baggage that comes with that, like, hey, let's, let's promote unique ideas instead of like all these charged ideas that there's two different sets of rules. But yeah, it's, it comes back to vibrations too, I think, you know, the, the way you're interacting with people. And, you know, you bring up some great ideas about vibrations in the body, in the sense of smell later on in the chapter. Do you remember talking about that? Yes, yes. There seems to be, no,

I cannot tell you because there's so much particular knowledge and the references there, but I can tell you that it seems that smell seems to, the way one can explain our ability to smell can only be done using quantum mechanics. type of formulas and thinking. And that seems to be another way of supporting quantum biology, quantum physics, but how quantum physics can be applied to biology. And I think the olfactory system is definitely part of that. And I think that as time goes on, we will, will learn more and more about how our bodies are sort of going back and forth between, you know, quantum biology and regular sort of old-fashioned physical laws, laws of physics, you know.

But a lot of our biology goes both ways. It follows the laws of physics, for example, gravity, right? Yeah. But then we come to the sense of smell, which seems to be a combination of quantum biology and regular biology, physics, that kind of stuff. So I think, again, that is going to be something that will be happening in the future. I think I don't know where I mentioned to you or not. I was being interviewed by a lovely man in California,

and he said that I, meaning I, Thomas Weerney, have a way of going out, of writing outside the box, until the box catches up with me. I would agree 100%. I think you did a tremendous job explaining quantum mechanics in a way that people can understand. It's a really difficult subject. However, you did a great job streamlining it and laying out the basic foundation for people like me to, you know, begin to maybe get a fingerhold on what was going on.

I wanted to read one little blurb you had in here about Stuart Allen Kaufman, the emeritus professor of biochemistry at Pennsylvania. and his idea of the poised realm. I guess he has actually gotten a patent for this new state of matter. And it says something to the effect of webs of quantum coherence can extend across the large part of a neuron and can remain poised between coherence and decoherence. This poised realm is where consciousness reigns. And this brings us into hammer off and microtubules. It's such a complex description.

but can you maybe just try to hammer it out a little bit more? Hammer it out? Maybe just kind of explain it a little bit more about this poised realm between coherence and decoherence. Well, it's, I don't know that I can do that because you said it. I did. I don't know that I can add anything more to it because that's really all we know at the moment. Poised meaning, of course, that it's sort of, you know, positioned between two ways of explaining the world, explain the world of biology, the way we function.

And, you know, in terms of Hammeroff and Penrose, they felt that it was the microchubules, which are tiny, tiny, tiny little tubules inside the skeleton. Is it skeleton? There is a tiny little structure. Isoskeleton, I think it's called. Just a second. Let's see, where do I? Oh, yeah, okay.

Just one second. Okay. Okay, so if I'm looking at a cell, let me look at the cell here. Excuse me for one second. No problem. Okay, here we are. Okay, so the microtubules, microfilaments, microtubules, cytoskeleton, yeah, that's the one. There you go.

Okay. You know, there are 37 diminutive organ systems within the cell. And these are called organelles. And they kind of reproduce similar physiologic processes that our lungs or our gut or our brain, so to speak, does for our bodies. So these 37 tiny little, they're called organelles because they are small organs. Organels. And one of these organelles is the cytoskeleton. And that is a cellular scaffolding or scaffolding or scale.

contained within the cell cytoplasm, and inside that cytoskeleton are the microtubules. And Hamerov and Penhavs both believe that it is in those little micro-tubes that consciousness resides. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I don't know in which part of the nucleus consciousness resides. I can see many places where memories reside in the nucleus. Obviously, in the nucleus of a cell, there's DNA and RNA, and there is the memory for our whole body is contained in that. But then we also have the cellular membrane, which acts very much also like a microchip.

and so that probably contains a lot of memory. And then we have inside, within the cytoplasm, we have the microtubules, and they may contain memories also. So one cell can contain memories in different places, and it will probably contain different memories in different places. But coming back to Hamerov and Penrose and consciousness, I don't think anybody at the moment can prove that consciousness is in any one particular place because you can't see it, right? Right. And you can't do experiments on one cell to see whether it contains consciousness or not. You know, just for our listeners, you know, I want to point out that the cells in our bodies are incredibly,

incredibly small. It takes 10,000 average cells, 10,000 cells to put on the head of a pin. Instead of a pin, you can put 10,000 cells on the head of a pin. That's how small they are, okay? They are incredibly, incredibly, incredibly small. And yet, and yet, and this is this is the surprise. rise of the century, sort of, in this incredibly small space, there are, there's lots of stuff, you know, I just described to you the nucleus. Inside the nucleus, there's DNA and RNA. If you took the DNA and unspooled it, because it's kind of all wound up, if you unspooled it, it would measure two meters. Two meters. Imagine. And all of it. of that is so cleverly put, put away, so cleverly not it up that it's inside the nucleus

of this cell, which you cannot even see with the naked eye. And inside of that cell, they have these 37 organelles that I described. And in addition to that, in addition to that. There is also something, let me just see how many, 12,000, 12,000 proteins, 12,000 different proteins are packed into that tiny cell. So, you know, I often try to explain this by asking people to imagine that, you know, you are standing somewhere far, far away from the Earth and some galaxy far away, and you look towards the Earth. And you see this tiny, tiny speck of what seems to be like dust far, far away. It is impossible for you standing so many millions of miles away to conceive that on this tiny speck,

there are actually intelligent people walking around and doing things. It's impossible, you know. if you were to say that to one of your fellows on that faraway galaxy, they would laugh you out of the country. But we know it's true, right? So a lot depends on your viewpoint, you know, where you are, how you are looking at things. And one of the things that I try to do in the embodied mind is to perhaps try to to suggest that the way we look at things should be changed, okay?

That we need to be more open-minded and also to trust the evidence. We know that, for example, you know, people can be hypnotized. We know that people can perceive messages, from far away, particularly if they are from someone who is very much connected to them. We know so much, but we don't kind of put it together and draw the conclusions from it. And so, you know, the conclusion is that our minds

are incredibly powerful, but they are not a product of the brain alone. Yes, the brain contributes, but so does the heart, so does the liver, the kidney, every other cell in our bodies. It is, you know, it is like a large orchestra playing, and each member of the orchestra has a different instrument, but they're all, when you're sitting like 50 feet away,

it all comes out as one wonderful sound, although it is made up perhaps of 120 different sounds. but it comes to you as a unit. And that's how memories come to us. I suddenly remember my trip to China. And so suddenly I will start getting pictures of my trip to China. But that picture has been contributed by thousands

and millions of cells in my body. Yeah. Did you coin the term sympathetic communication? And that's, would you say that what you described with the analogy of the orchestra is, in fact, a type of sympathetic communication? Yes, yes, yes. I would. I would. I used sympathetic communication in order to get away from parapsychology, which sort of has been. But yes, I think that it's important, you know, for everybody to realize that this emphasis that we have placed on the head and the brain is misplaced. I'm not saying that the head and the brain are not important. I'm not saying that at all. But what I'm also saying is that there is a lot of body underneath the look,

which should not be disregarded, okay? I mean, we act as if he really didn't have bodies. And again, you know, the church may have had something to do with it, okay, because there's such an emphasis on the spirit and such a, to say the least, a feeling of ambivalence towards the lower parts of the body, particularly the sexual organs, right? Because that produces sin very often. So it's better not to talk about that.

And it's better not to think about it. And then, of course, you know, we have all these priests and nuns in the Catholic religion. which, what's the weird when you don't have sex? A celibacy or something? Yeah. So, you know, this dedication to celibacy then has so often, you know, led to sexual abuse of children.

Yeah. You know, all over the world, you know. And it's just unnatural. It is just not natural. You know, God gave you every organ in your body so that you should use it, not abuse it. And so, you know, if God didn't want you to have a penis or a vagina, etc., he would not have given it to you. So even if you believe, even if you are a believer in God, it doesn't make sense to somehow bring in a law which says, well, those people who serve God, they should be celibate.

Because we know where that goes. You know, the sexual energy is still there, whether you are a nun or a priest, and you've got to do something with it. And if you can't use it in a normal way, then you will find an abnormal way of using it and create a great deal of pain. Yes. I don't know whether the reports have reached you in Hawaii or not, but you know, in Canada, you know, we had these schools for indigenous children.

Everywhere, every one of those schools, now they're finding burial sites and people are coming out of the woodwork talking about the abuse that they suffered. both physical and social, psychological, and sexual. And it just makes sense. It just makes sense because those nuns and those priests need to find an outlet for their sexual desires. Yeah, there's some really dark stuff that happened there.

Very dark stuff. And the way we got into that was because telling you about this, difference, you know, up here, head is good. Yeah. Elvis? No, no, no. So naturally, you know, again, our culture, you know, the Judeo-Christian culture has not done us a favor in terms of enjoying and valuing our bodies. It's only the head that's valued.

Yeah. I just had a thought. When we talk about memories, you had mentioned theoretically about remembering a trip to China. And from classical ideas about memory, they say that memories are reconstructed every time, so they're a little bit different. How is it, how does the embodied mind work on reconstructed memories? That is a very interesting question. I had another interesting question yesterday.

I'll tell you about that in a second. Well, I think that because every cell in our bodies, 86 billion cells approximately contribute to whatever comes out of my mouse or whatever I'm thinking, there is probably room for distortion because, like, you know, there are so many players. So I think one has to be very careful in terms of trusting memories.

And there has been a lot of research done on how, you know, memories, This can be changed over time. You know, it seems, I'm sorry. I apologize for interruption. I just, it seems to me that, and I just had this thought, you know, as cells die rather rapidly, maybe they pass their information to the next cell, the same way that we would pass on our information to our child.

Maybe it's sort of a fractal sort of a thing going on there. Maybe one is a direct reflection of the other. Yeah. And in the process, of course, just like you said, we pass on information. Every time you pass on information, you know, it's like one of those broken telephones that you use. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time you pass it on, perhaps one of the words is distorted or a couple of things I left out. And so by the time it reaches the tense kid in the ring, it's like a a totally different message, right? But that's it was a good laugh. So probably the same thing happens here. And of course, every moment that you live,

new information is coming in, and that new information is coloring the old information. There is a very, very interesting book by an Italian psychoanalyst and pediatrician. This wonderful book by, like I said, an Italian psychoanalyst and pediatrician who would interview mothers and the father during their pregnancy. So during the nine months leading up to birth, she would interview a couple. And she would have, and she would also take ultrasounds of the babies. And there was one particular woman who had twins.

And when they were being watched, every month she did an ultrasound. And when she watched the children, well, you know, the unborn children, and what they would do in the womb, as they were in the seventh or eight months, that there was a membrane there between the two of them in the womb.

And the little boy would stretch out his hand towards the membrane, and then the little girl, his sister, twin, would stretch out her arm, and the two of them would touch, and they would stroke each other. You could see that in the womb. When she visited this woman after she had her children, when they were about six months old, their favorite game was to hide behind a curtain and the little girl would sort of sit there and then the little boy would put his hands up against the curtain and then she would put up

her hand against the curtain and they repeat exactly what they were doing in the womb. Wow. Continued for a while. But then, as she continued to watch them three, four years later, that had totally disappeared. And when she asked them sort of about it in an indirect way, not in a leading way, you know, they had no memory of it anymore. And the memory that they had was distorted. Yes, sometimes we would play with each other. How would you play?

Sometimes I would put my head. against his hand. So the whole thing, there was still some, there was still some truth in what they said, but it was like totally distorted. And some kids distorted more than others, depending on whether they had a pleasant or unpleasant experience in the womb. So what I'm saying is the same thing happens with adults, of course. There is new information coming in and the new information sometimes supports the old one, okay, when your parents will say, do you remember when you were two years old and we took you to visit your grandmother, etc?

So if you hear that, you know, every couple of months for the rest of your life, you will remember it. But if you don't, it will disappear. So relying on memories is really dangerous because they may or may not be accurate. Yeah. And the other thing that I was asked yesterday that I thought was a very interesting question that I really need to look into. How do I feel I was asked about people who are brain dead? So you can see the problem because I'm saying that the brain is just, you know, one place from where we get consciousness. The brain is only one place from where we get memories, will.

the rest of the body is important. So what happens when the brain is dead? How much of a person are we still dealing with? And I don't have the answer at the moment. I hope to look into research and see whether people have done some research on brain dead people. I do know that sometimes when people appear, to be just in a vegetative state.

Right. They still record what is being said and they can still react to it. Like if you say, you know, your son just died or something like that, they will have a reaction. And everybody who deals with so-called vegetative states, which is like brain dead, will tell you that you should read and talk to the people, and then sometimes they come back.

So would it be, you know, another piece of evidence for what I'm saying is that, you know, as long as the body is there, you have a backup system, you're not totally lost. Yeah, that is an interesting question. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we have six months from now when we talk, we can discuss that. Yes, absolutely. Doctor, is there anything else you want to leave the audience with? Okay, let me think.

Yes, thank you for the question. Yeah, I think that the important thing to realize is that your mind, and this is not just the brain mind, as I said before, this is the embodied mind, the big mind, so to speak. Mind is incredibly powerful. And you really can heal yourself. You can accomplish huge amounts of things for yourself and others if you begin to use your mind for that purpose.

in other words, for healing and for being like a total human being who wants to relate and be kind and loving to others. I think that today more than ever it is so important to reach out to fellow human beings and to fellow animals all the way down to the simplest animals in the world, unicellular animals, octopuses, and other sponges and all kinds of very, very simple animals, they all are alive just like you are, and they deserve respect and kindness. and the kind that you are to your fellow animals in the world, by this I mean humans also,

the better the world is going to become. We have to get rid of this toxic kind of violence that is just rising all around us, and we must not lose our optimism because we have come across we have survived more difficult times in the past. We have survived them and we shall survive this. But we have to pull together and remember our essential humanness.

Wow. That was really well said. And I've said a couple times, but to all the listeners, the book is called The Embodied Mind, Dr. Thomas Bernie. It's every chapter is its own little book. And it's got a beautiful introduction backed up by facts and tons of footnotes and summaries at the end. And you will learn so much. And I think it made me a better person.

So you should all go by this book. It's awesome. And you really, really enjoy it. Dr. Thomas, Roney, I really enjoy talking to you. In six months, I'm going to take you up and we're going to figure out some more stuff. And I hope you have a tremendous day. And if I can ever do anything for you or you need anything, please reach out. And thank you so much for your time today.

I really appreciate it. I very much appreciate it and very much enjoyed speaking with you. You're a wonderful, interesting person, and it's too bad we don't live on the same island. Well, hey, if I come out that way, I'll look you up. And if you come out here, you look me up for sure. Exactly are you? I'm in Oahu. Oahu.

Okay, okay. I will keep that in mind. Now you have a reason to come out here, right? Take care, George. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.