TrueLife - Randall “Healingseed.world” Hansen PhD. - The State of Psychedelics

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/randallshansen.comhttp://www.triumphovertraumabook.com/ I am Dr. Randall Hansen, and I am an educator and advocate for healing trauma -- and helping you a life of truth, health, peace, and joy.Big News! Check out my latest project -- a new book that focuses on a variety of healing stories through psychedelics. Read more about it here: Triumph Over Trauma: Psychedelic Medicines are Helping People Heal Their Trauma, Change Their Lives, and Grow Their Spirituality. Curious about why I wrote the book? Read my Questions & Answers Interview.I am a passionate educator and entrepreneur -- I have taught at the college-level for most of my life and I am also the CEO/CMO and Publisher of EmpoweringSites.com, a collection of websites designed to empower people to lead more successful, happier lives. I am also the founder (and former CEO) of Quintessential Careers, which I sold to LiveCareer in 2015.I have been empowering people my entire adult life -- focused on helping them lead better, richer, happier, and healthier lives. In fact, empowerment is a key part of my professional philosophy statement.HEALING the world is my agenda. My current areas of passion center around healing: nature, food, exercise, prayer/meditation, wellness, love, and psychedelics and entheogenic plant medicines.My new goal in life: Become a superhero for HEALING... and for living a life of joy, peace, and health.I have loved nature and conservation my entire life, including traveling to state and national parks, improving the health of a 40-acre Ponderosa Pine forest, serving on the board of a Conservation District, and volunteering with other organizations that promote good stewardship of our open spaces.Thanks to Jesse Gould of Heroic Hearts Project, I became aware of the healing potential of psychedelic and plant medicines. If you are unaware, we are finally discovering the unique properties of these psychedelics to help people suffering from a variety of conditions, including PTS, addiction, depression, anxiety, cluster headaches, and much more. (The research is so very promising, which is why I am writing the book on the subject.)I recently finished a 2.5-year, criss-crossing nationwide trip in which my wife Jenny and I had two goals: First, we wanted to blog (JenRanAdventures.com) about national wonders (parks, forests, monuments, and the like), organic and natural farms and ranches, and wonderful small cities and towns. Second, we wanted to find the ideal place to live, teach, work -- a community that includes a college with a vibrant business/marketing program for me, a focus on veterans for Jenny, and rural enough so that we could own about 15-30 acres of land -- and we found that in NE Washington, just north of Spokane. We have recently finished building our dream home. (Yes, during the pandemic!)Finally, I am a published author, with several books, chapters in books, and hundreds of articles, both academic and practical. (You can find some of these publications listed/linked here, but also on my EmpoweringSites.com network. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

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Dr. Randall, HealingC, Dot World Hansen. Welcome to the show. Woo! Well, George, I know we're talking about the psychedelic science conference today. So I just want to say, I drank the Kool-Aid man. And hold on one second for more details. Fair enough. Well, we have Dr. Randall Hansen, who's drinking the Kool-Aid.

You've seen him there. He is a changed man. It looks like the idea of psychedelic science has really gotten into him. The merry pranksters, the whole trip to Denver. Maybe it was Dennis Walker that got a hold of him. I don't know. But let's check and see him here. All right.

I'm almost done with the costume change. The transformation is among us. The drum roll. So that's the reality of psychedelic science. I think people from the outside might have seen it as this kind of hippie love fest. and we'll talk. There was definitely some of that for sure. But the reality of it for me, the biggest takeaway was, and I don't know, some people might see this a downer. I see it as a positive thing, but it was a professional conference. It was professional. I mean, we had people

every walk of life there, really, but amazingly so many counselors and therapists there. And it was, in fact, so on said I saw a post on LinkedIn a couple days ago. They were actually disappointed because it was too much like a regular conference. But to me, that was a sign of we made a really big step into moving this into the mainstream because in any industry, there's got to be a professional component to it. Yes, there can be outliers of all sorts, but you need to have. this engine kind of driving it. And the problem we have in psychedelics is we don't know what that engine is going to be just yet. And so that's, but that's a cool part too. We're struggling. We're

trying to find this. We're arguing. We're debating and we're learning. And that to me is the coolest part. I mean, it was, you know, from Rick Doblin's opening statement where he said, you know, I'm paraphrasing, you know, we're not tripping, culture is tripping. And that was like, yeah, everyone's going crazy. But, you know, that's the reality. So anyway, so I'm looking forward to chat with you today about it and seeing how you're doing, too. Yeah, well, thank you very much. I am doing fantastic.

I feel really fortunate to be here. And I agree that it's super exciting to see the way in which the world of psychedelics is being bantered around from Dennis Walker to. to the boys that are pitching, you know, R-O-Ys and all the stuff. Like, it's so interesting to hear and see the ways in which psychedelics are changing the world. And it's a lot like a psychedelic trip on that come up. You don't know what's going to happen. You get these butterflies.

You know, oh, man, I take too much. Is this not enough? What's going on? And it seems like that's exactly what's happening in culture. I think Rick Doblin is right that culture is tripping. But I wasn't there, man. You were the one that was there. Maybe you can walk us through what.

it was like from the beginning. Like, you had a nice long road trip and you show up. Just maybe before we get into the 10 takeaways, maybe you can give us your initial feeling when you pull up. Well, it's funny. You know, Jenny and I, my partner and I decided to drive out there. Most of because we looked at flights and were like, ooh, I think it's cheaper to drive. But I'm so glad we did, especially after the conference, because just like a psychedelic

experience, you know, man, we needed some serious integration after that conference. And so two days in nature was pretty darn good. Found some amazing hikes and just kind of breathe. And also the city, we're not city people. And Denver is, you know, a pretty nice city, but too much, too much concrete and so happy to get out of there. But the initial impression was, so we got there Tuesday afternoon. Maps had warned people to try to register early rather than do it, get your badge Wednesday morning. And so going in there was already chaotic on that Tuesday afternoon, but we got her badge pretty quickly, peaked into these exhibition hall, which not that many booths were set up. I'm like, whoa, this is going to happen tomorrow. I hope they're working on it tonight.

But magically by Wednesday morning, you know, the booth were all up. But walking into that convention center Wednesday morning was the energy was palpable. I mean, you could feel it and it was amazing. I loved some of our European and non-U.S. people posted, there was this funny sign right by the entrance. It said something like, welcome to psychedelic science, psychedelic science, 2003. No handguns allowed. And people are like, how does this work? It seems like an oxymoron here or something.

But and then people are like, yeah, only in the U.S. Would there be a psychedelic conference where they're banning weapons? But and then, and then that opening, opening session in this massive auditorium. and a beautiful opening piece by this indigenous woman talking about her culture and her experience and how we should be respecting the medicine. And it was wonderful. And then Rick Doblin came out in this flowing white outfit, almost looking like a dream. And just, you know, shared its vision.

And to me, the most exciting thing he said, because it fits my life goal, agenda, everything about what I am right now, is he put the slide up and I wasn't expecting it, that their vision after they get through getting FDA approval for MDMA is net zero trauma by 2017. So he said, you know, yes, there'll always be new traumas happening. But if we can, between now and, you know, 50 years or so, if we can heal all the childhood trauma, all the intergenerational trauma, then by then it's just new trauma. And we can attack it as it happens rather than attacking it 30 years later when it's been destroying your inside for so long. So that was the most exciting. I mean, I probably the people around me were really mad because I was just screaming. I was so excited. Like, yes, yes.

Let's clear this trauma because so much of the world in my mind, you know, so much of the anger and the hurt and the pain and the frustrations come from, as we've talked about, comes from this unprocessed trauma. And if we can, and I love that MAPS is right there because, you know, they're proven what they can do. And so I'm so excited for the future just based on that one opening comment in that in that session. Wow. Just this concept of net zero trauma. Like that's enough for me to almost take a knee right there. I've never thought about that. Like, why not?

You know, why can't we do it? And the truth is if you start, maybe it's just because we're so immersed in this particular community that we see the changes on the front lines. same with the therapist or the doctors or anybody who has found a relationship with psychedelic medicine or infugents you know it's it seems that there is this sort of outbreak of of healing trauma you know i have never heard so many people in my life purge for their family you know and by that term i mean solve generational trauma it seems like it's popping up everywhere it's beautiful to think about yeah yeah well i mean i i i i I can't remember if we talked about this last time, but for me, this year has been kind of a weird season of my father and kind of trying to really understand him better from an adult standpoint rather than a childhood standpoint.

And one of the things I looked at was his mother, my grandmother, who was, boy, she was something else. She would argue at the, you know, flip of a coin and she would take both sides. She would argue both sides. As a kid, I remember thinking, whoa, she just switched sides. And my father would just switch sides the other way too. And they just keep arguing. And so to me, that's intergenerating. It's funny now, yeah.

And she was always comparing him to his brother. You know, why aren't you? Oh, he's a member of the country club. Why aren't you a member of the country club? And it helps me realize there's that intergenerational trauma. And then it makes me wonder, wow, what happens? to my grandmother that caused her to lash out so much. And she was also extremely obese.

So I think that was also the food thing was also, you know, a lot of traumatized people eat to fill that void. And so, yeah, I mean, you start looking back in your family and you realize, you know, wow, there's a lot of stuff going on. And if we can clear all that, you know, Jenny and I are both from Scandinavian families. And we joke that the rule was sweep it under the rug. There's no problems. There's no problems.

Lug is getting a little lumpy, but other than that, no problem. Yeah. How could there possibly be a problem if you don't talk about it? Right. Right. Right. Of course. Yeah.

Of course. So I love that. You know, I don't know why I'm so affected by it, but I just am. Maybe that's finally my empathy really growing because of the power of empathy in the space or compassion. But, you know, I just, you know, every day, whether it's in person or on the news, you just see someone reacting badly. and you almost immediately think, well, okay, there's something happened to that person and it hasn't been, you know, so yeah, I mean, the world, it sounds woo-woo or whatever, but if we look at clearing trauma, Ryan Roberts, who I absolutely adore, he's a veteran MBA. he posted yesterday after 40 plus years of living he finally can be his true authentic self put all the mask away and realize what a beautiful soul he has and I love him I appreciate him I said hey can

I use that quote from my new project and he's like, of course. But that's what Healy's about. It's it's it's not this woo-woo. Oh, we'll all be about peace and love. Although, yes, we will be all about peace and love. But it's not the woo-woo kind of thing. It's because when we heal, you know, we find that that inner child that we've lost that had all these goals and ambitions, you know, they kind of that joke of, you know,

five-year-olds, what do you want to be? I want to be a firefighter or a police officer or. or whatever. And, but we lose that as a reality become, many of us lose that as the reality of maybe having to get a job as a teenager to support our family. Maybe it's our family doesn't go to college or all these things. Or trauma happens, obviously. And it changes us.

So, but when we release that trauma, it just transforms us. It's amazing to see. it transforms us and all of a sudden we go back to seeing what we really are passionate about. And one of the things that most of us become passionate about is helping others heal. And so then it becomes this sort of exponential healing because once we heal, we want to help others heal. And then so I think this net net zero trauma by 2017 is really possible with the addition of psychedelics, with the addition of really focusing on other modalities we heal. because psychedelics are not for everyone.

And even those that they are okay for, might just be too scared to take the macro journey. And so I'm just so excited about it. It's not the woo-woo stuff. It's just the healing really does transform you. Yeah. It makes perfect sense to me. And, you know, when I, when I,

if I go back to the beginning of what you just said in this particular little exchange, When you see someone and they're acting out in a way that seems to be angry or it seems to be frustrated, I think it's incredible that our first thought can be like, oh, this person was hurt. That changes everything. Instead of someone being like, oh, my God, this person's a nutcase or oh, my God, this person's horrible to be around. If your first instinct is, wow, this person's been really hurt before, that fundamentally changes your interaction with them. And in your change of your interaction, just even a slight pause to think about that, that can fundamentally shift their view. You just pause for them and be like, okay, this person's been hurt.

I should treat them as someone who needs compassion instead of someone who is just, you know, mad at the world or upset with me because they're not upset with me. They're upset as something else. That changes the way you interact with them. And just that small pebble in the pond ripple radiates outwards and it changes everything like that. It's crazy to think about. Like I... Oh, I love that, George. Thank you because...

No, that's perfect. Because, yeah, as soon as we realize, you know, probably in all those interactions, 98 or 99% of the time, it's not you, just as you said. You know, maybe 1% you grabbed something. They were going to take, you know, the last item on the shelf or something like that. And yeah, if you just... And the biggest word that came to me last year, the medicine, you know, took the hammer and smashed it on my head was perspective.

And that's what it is. You just have to change your perspective away from so focused on yourself. Oh, it must be about me. You know, that person's, you know, yelling at me. So I have to yell back. But when you change that perspective and say, wow, that person's hurting. I wonder what I can even do to help. Yeah.

Yeah. It's that beautiful ripple effect. Yeah. Yeah, I've had it happen before where I've, I've been mad at someone. And someone had said something like, hey how can I help you out man something like you're having a tough day or hey are you all right and like that just shifted me

I was like yeah you know what yeah you know what and then I would apologize you know what you didn't deserve that sorry I am having a tough day you know and it like it's just who it's so quick it can fundamentally wash over you like a cool breeze or like a little bit of warm water you know and it just it changes your perspective I it's it's it stokes me to think about the way in which we can heal and just in just that moment

And the other beautiful thing, George, is it drops your wall, at least for a short second, because all of a sudden the reaction isn't what you expected. It's like, whoa, you're asking me what's wrong with me or how I'm doing? Yeah. And so it immediately drops that wall. So you have this, you know, and maybe you can expand that. But at least for immediate, you have that, there's that real person right there. I love that.

Yeah. You know, I had this idea that I was thinking about yesterday. And it seems to me that we as individuals and the culture we live in, we kind of mirror our technology. And sometimes we are, we are, yeah, it kind of seems like our technology is a mirror for us. And for some reason, I was thinking about the phone booth. Remember the phone booth? Like back in the day, I know people that are younger may not know this. But it seems to me a large part of my life and maybe my generation is stuck in this metaphorical phone booth. Think about your life as like this big transparent echo chamber that you go into and you're surrounded by four walls.

Everybody can see you, but you're walled off from genuine contact. And to make it worse, there's this chained phone book in there. And that chained phone book is like it represents everything you need, but it's chained down. And you can only flip through the stuff and like, it's kind of crazy to think about, right? It is. It's us. We're in our own little personal phone booth and everything we need is chained to this one mode of communication.

But we need not be in that phone booth. We can just walk right out of there, have genuine contact, genuine feelings. I don't know how I went off on that tangent right there, but I just did. I'm sorry to do that to you. Well, I love it because I just had a conversation yesterday about phones. So it's kind of weird. But it was about cell phones. And again, how we are so married.

I thought maybe that's where you were going, but it would be even stranger. But, you know, we're so married to that technology that when it's not in our hand or our pocket or nearby, we kind of freak out because like Jenny jokes that her entire life is in her cell phone. And if she ever lost that, where would she be? I'm like, well, you'd still be alive. So it's not your entire life. But I get it. And so that becomes, you know, this becomes a chain too. we're chained to this.

Yep. And yeah, all the information is here too, but. Yeah. You know, but, but hey, let's go out and live. You know, we don't need to be chained to that technology. But I love the echo chamber thing because I've, I've been struggling with that somewhat. You know, I even with, you know, all the work that I've been doing trying to do, I still get that, that ego that's just like, this is what should be happening. This is what should be happening.

And it's like, shut up, shut up. I thought I pushed you far enough away. But then, you know, you have to lean into that and say, okay, what's going on? And so that, but that's the other thing I just want to mention, you know, is that on this healing journey, you know, it's never going to be one step and you're done. It's always going to be, you know, and even if you take one step out of that phone book, that's only one step, you've got to keep going. And you might go back into the phone book because there's a little scary out there. That's fine. It's okay to go back.

Right. Then you make a new plan. Go forward again. Yeah. Yeah. It's so, it's fascinating to think about. And I, I love the idea of finding ways to move beyond our comfort zone. And I think that healing psychedelics and this whole modality that we find ourselves in is doing that, which takes us to this idea of what, what are the 10 takeaways? Like you have a list of 10 takeaways that you, when you went to the psychedelic conference, that you, that you, you went in there and you found out some things. things. And it looked like you had an incredible time. I saw you with Fiorella and, you know, the Heroic Hearts Project. You had your shirt on and you were out there representing. What were some of the takeaways you got from there? Well, first of all, just, just absolutely love the conference. You know, kind of thinking about that phone booth. The other funny thing I

thought about was you were talking about the phone booth is, as soon as you said phone booth, I thought COVID, because we were kind of trapped. I mean, I was, again, talking to, you know, yesterday about this, you know, we were, you know, self-isolating and literally in our own psychic phone booth in that sense. Yeah. And that, to me, that's one of the greatest aspects of this conference was, you know, and it wouldn't probably wouldn't be prior to the pandemic, but it was, oh, wow, I can actually meet all these people.

I've been on Zoom with for three years in person. It was so cool. It's a pretty point. Yeah. But anyway, so the first one, we talked. talked about was that the net zero trauma, which again, if that was the only thing, to me, that's the greatest highlight. If we could everyone jump on board that idea of finding healing, amazing. The second thing for me was all the people, all the stories. You know, we had scientists

there. We had indigenous people. We had definitely some crazy far out people. We had some accountants. we had just everyone you can imagine. And it was just fascinating because, again, maybe just because it's been so long that I've been at a conference, but it was just like a thousand conversations happening all over the place and the sharing of information and knowledge. And as someone said, you know, you could ease drop in almost any conversation. You hear someone telling their journey, their story, you know. And that's, again, just the coolest part of it all.

And again, I think stories are the way we are going to help people heal. You know, they'll hear someone's healing story and be like, oh, wow, maybe I can do that too. Maybe I can heal. And so just beautiful stories that way. Back to my opening little fun sketch there. The third part was. Let me, can I jump in on number two? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So with the coming together of the indigenous people and the scientific community and the business community, I had heard that towards the end that there was a group of indigenous people that were rallying and trying to bring a message that commodifying something sacred is what leads to the abuse of the plants like tobacco becoming cigarette. the coca leaf becoming cocaine. And I was wondering, did you catch any of that? Or what was your take on that? You know, I'm torn because I totally support that view. There's no question I support that view. There were definitely plenty of indigenous panels, speakers during the conference. My main thing with that was, and that's part of the struggles we have, again, where are we going with this industry?

industry. And my, my big issue with it was, in my mind, the protesters were speaking to the choir. Those in the audience, yes, there are some business people there. But for the most part, those in the psychedelic industry, we want, we respect the medicine. I mean, how can you take the medicine and not respect it? Right. Yes, there will always be 5% of any population that abuse things, whether it's, you know uh killing the the toads or or uh you know pillaging piette uh but for the vast majority you know um when jenny and i discussed this off offline obviously but when i talked to her about i said i'd rather see them that protest at uh um you know some kind of alt right or alt uh some group you know to me the psychedelic community is so open so open to change so open to new

ideas uh trying to figure out again the best modality of how we both respect the medicine but also grant access to the medicine and so to me i like said i support that message uh again i i look at rick dobbling and maps. And right now, their main focus is MDMA. So that's not a plant. It's a chemical compound. And yet they do a lot with Chakruna and others in supporting the indigenous. And so again, I just felt a little badly for Rick and for maps and a little badly for

the way to end. I think they did it also because they knew it would get some good press coverage. And I know it's been on Twitter and other places. So I understand it and I like I said, I support that we, you know, I will never take Piotay unless I'm in some indigenous circle, which I can't imagine I ever will be. But because I respect that so much. That is their medicine. Yeah. And I, if I want, you know, Mexico and I can, I can go to San Pedro.

Right. Which is also a sacred plant, but not as, it grows a lot faster and plentiful than than. than Piotte does. And so I think the majority of us, you know, but there's that debate. I mean, it's the same debate in how, whether we legalize things and do we legalize all plants or do we have a little asterisk that says, you know, yes, all points are legal, but don't harvest a Piotte unless you're indigenous, you know, so, you know, it becomes this kind of how do we, how do we do?

And that's, I don't know, it's, it's. fascinating to me. I think it's awesome that we're having these debates. Yeah. And I think as long as we're respecting each other's voices, to me, that's the most important thing. You know, as long as we're listening to each other and I thought Rick was fabulous there, he's like, no, let them speak. Let them speak. And I, you know, again, I don't, I had a very short conversation with Rick. I didn't do a selfie with him because I felt like 10,000 other people asked for a selfie with him. But I just said to him, I said, thank God, you are the one doing all this research and dealing with the FDA. I said, because I would be in jail if I were doing it because I would be

shouting at these FDA people because, you know, these companies with big money get their drugs approved in six months a year. And we're working in decades with MDMA. And we're still not there yet. Yeah. That's well put. Yeah. And I just wanted to bring it up just so that people can have an idea of that. And I like the perspective that everybody in that community does seem pretty open.

I mean, maybe that particular type of confrontation would be good at like a Pfizer building or like somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Or FDA headquarters. FDA. That would be, yeah, why not be hand in hand at the FDA? Hey, they want this.

want this? Like, why not work together to go and fight a common enemy? Instead of dividing the group that we have, it's interesting you talk about. Yeah, but I mean, there's so much, there's so much truth. I mean, even why psychedelic medicines are illegal now, it's all political, cultural BS and nothing to do with the medicine and nothing to do with, and totally trampling on the indigenous who have, you know, used these medicines for centuries. So it is something that needs to be worked on and hopefully we're moving in that direction. Yeah, I think so. I think so. All right. I think we got that one. Okay, what was number three going to be? Ah, three. So three is, I don't know how much you know about Denver weather. And I know they've had a lot of spring

rain because there have been some flooding. But during this conference, during the day, the weather was gorgeous. But in the late afternoon, especially one day, we had hail. crazy lightning and thunder. I thought the power was going to go out in the conference. You go flickered a little bit. And so my take away from that is, you know, everyone thought the psychedelics were going to be. This conference is going to be the wild crazy thing.

But the weather turned out to be the craziest part of this conference. It wasn't, I mean, the conference was so laid back. And like I said, so professional. except for the deep space area, which I'll get to towards the end of the podcast because I'll save that for near the last. But so yeah, the weather was absolutely crazy. But the conference was saying, so that's the funny part.

Yeah, that is crazy to think about it. I don't know, in some ways, in some ways it just seems like a psychedelic tryptomy. never know what you're going to get and the environment around you sometimes can dictate the way in which we react to each other and yeah it's interesting to think about yeah yeah so was that when you walk in there what were there were there different types of what was the outlet like was there different conference room and different sorts of you know was there Room A, Exhibit Hall, B, Exhibit Hall, C.

Like, how was the breakdown on that? Oh, my, it was so crazy. First of all, again, speaking of our smartphones, so they have an app. Okay. And it could actually track you if you let it. And it would actually, if you punched in, like, I want to go to this talk in this room and hit a button, it would actually lead you like a Google Maps, lead you to that conference room. So that part was pretty trippy and cool in its own right, but a little.

scary to a technology. Yeah. But there were, they were actually, I think originally there were something like 13 or 14, what they called stages or conference room, big rooms, breakout rooms, and the auditorium, as I mentioned. But then as the, even on the first day of the conference, it was like, oh, there's a new stage over here and, oh, we're adding this stage over there. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

So they were adding speakers every day of the conference, and it was just blowing my mind. And I was like, hey, maybe I should just sit down somewhere and open my own little, get my guitar and do something. It's like every day there was someone playing guitar or there's this one funny guy that just had a sign that reminded me of the Peanets cartoon. But instead of saying psychologist in, it said, new ideas. and he said this little handwritten side new ideas and people were walking up to him and I guess either giving him new ideas or they were getting new ideas from him but it was just again just all this trippy little stuff that was happening all over the place uh outside of all these stages but um it was it was crazy trying to find it was on you know different levels and um and and and you just

follow the streams of people. I just got into the flow and hope you went to the right place with the flow. Man, it sounds, what was the all-around vibe? Was everybody pretty jovial or was people talking to each other? Or were people, I'm sure there was tons of different kinds of people,

but it was a pretty jovial going through? Easy to talk to people? Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, I think the first day, as we're rushing all to get to the opening session, it was kind of quiet and,

you know, morning also. But after that, After that, you know, yeah, the conversation started. And, you know, as I predicted and loved, you know, it was somewhat of a hug fest. You know, people just. And then it was just so cool to see, you know, like you'd hear people shouting from across the hall. Like, oh my God, there you are. Because again, so many of us haven't seen each other in person.

And so it was just, or like one time I was walking and I was so neat of coffee. We saw my head down walking right toward the coffee line. And all of a sudden I hear, you know, ran, ran. And it took like three rams, I think, to finally sink in. And I'm like, but the coffee is calling me. But then I turned. It was this group of folks, including Charles Patty and others. And Adam Garfunkel, and I just went over there and we got big hugs.

And so that was a vibe. I mean, yes, there were some, you know, accounting firms and business professionals that were all a little straight. laced, but for the most part of the vibe was just really positive. I love that, again, changing that perspective. You know, when I first walked in, that first day, I was sort of in that business mindset, you know, oh, I got to plan my day perfectly after the, after the first session, that plan went out of the window. And again, that's like a journey. You just, you know, you have an intention. Right. I'm going to go to all these sessions to do all this stuff. But then

medicine takes you elsewhere and that's what this conference did. Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. I could see how true that would be. Were there some specific, were there some specific papers that you wanted to see presented or some exhibits that you wanted to see presented? Then did you make it to those? Yeah. The biggest one I wanted to see, they had two dinners that were add-ons to the conference and I would have loved to do both because one was honoring Dr. Roland Griffith, who is a big, big hero in my mind. And then I didn't go to that one because I just couldn't afford both of them. But the second one was a veteran and first responders dinner honoring them.

Nice. And the story is Justin LaPrie, his story, he was both a veteran and a first responder. just again you know we've heard them before but so so powerful in you know the trauma and the hurting so badly that yeah there was my service gun revolver right there I could use it today and all this pain you know and and and yet finds a way and and and he said something so amazing so amazing And I'm dying to see this happen. I hope you can do it. But he said, he announced, you know, most of the healing for veterans has to take place outside of this country because these substances are illegal.

And all these nonprofits have to operate within U.S. laws. So we send him to Peru or Mexico. And Justin announced that his nonprofit, Heropath, Light. is going to be having healing in psychedelic healing in the U.S. And the crowd went crazy because, you know, in talking with Jesse Gould from Horace Kuhl, one of the big problems they have is all the logistics. It's not the ceremonies themselves.

Those run perfectly smoothly. It's getting the veteran to get a current passport and getting that vet off the medication and getting the vet to the airport. and then the connecting flights and all these issues. And if it could just be done in the U.S., and, you know, the hope with FDA changes and rescheduling, it will happen. But, you know, most people are saying five or ten years,

but Justin's like, oh, no, we're doing it. And so I love that aspect of it. But so to me, the highlights were deaf on the stories. The one session I missed that I would love, And I think MAPS announced are going to be putting some of this stuff online at some point. So I can't wait. But there was a session lessons psychedelics could learn from the cannabis industry. Oh, interesting.

And I thought, oh, I really want to go to that one. And I was just having a discussion yesterday with someone we were talking about in Washington State. Cannabis is legal recreationally and medicinally. and the recreational cannabis has so much single-use crap, so much plastic used. And, you know, on one hand, it's amazing that we have these cannabis stores. We had a visitor a couple weeks ago from a state where it's not legal, and he came in, and he was like a kid in a candy shop. He's like, oh, my God, I can't believe this.

And it was fun. It made my heart, you know, it's like singing a little bit. But on the other hand, you know, it's like, it's like, sing a little bit. But on the other hand, you know, we should, you know, cannabis, psychedelics, it changes how you see things, is how you see the world. And we shouldn't be using single use anything in this industry. We should, because, again, you know, people throw that plastic. It affects the climate and the world and all these things.

And so, in one, so we have to figure out this model because, I mean, I would love the idea of walking down to my corner store and choosing, oh, I'll try some LSD today or I'll try some MDMA. But I don't want it to be in these single-use things. I wanted to be, you know, like maybe in the old, maybe like the old drugstores were, where it was a, you know, the druggist went and there was a big jar and, you know, oh, how much do you want? Ten capsules. Okay, here you go.

And in your reusable thing you bring or a paper bag or something. So anyways, I'm hoping to see what those lessons are because that was, that was, was a lot of the discussion. And there were some cannabis exhibitors at maps, maybe I think four or five, mostly hemp CBD. But I think there are a lot of lessons to learn from that. And we're still struggling. I mean, I'm amazed that cannabis is not, you know, even at the federal level, maybe, you know, we're not, so many states have done it, but we're still feel like we're stalling. not getting where we should be with cannabis. So, you know, psychedelics definitely could maybe learn what not to do from that model.

Yeah, maybe it's like the older brother. Like they say that the first child is like the first pancake. You know what I mean? So maybe cannabis is like the first pancake. Like, I kind of got that wrong, got this thing wrong. But the next one, we're going to get in. It will be perfect. Wipe the pacifier off, put it back in his mouth.

Yeah. We're good to go. Well, you know, and I think there's some truth that. I mean, the one thing that someone told me that I love is, you know, it's sort of a sad reason, but a positive outcome from it. But he said, you know, he said, what's going to change these hearts and minds of legislators is the veterans and first responders because these suicides, you can't argue with that. And how can you deny treatment, especially, you know, silly as it is being called.

breakthrough or emerging, even though they've been around forever. But since they are being called that, you know, how can a legislator say, no, let these veterans die every day? So I think even though that's such a sad thing that's been happening and been happening for way too long, that might be that that, that hedge, what's that word, that, that lynch pin that pops that door and gets fast. Faster FDA approval, faster rescheduling by the DEA of some of these medications. You know, that brings up an interesting thought in my mind about the cyclical nature and patterns of psychedelics and veterans.

If we look back to the 60s, some of the greatest speeches that were given were given by soldiers that came back and were using cannabis or even psychedelics. And, you know, I can't give you the name of someone that gave the speeches offhand, but I remember scrolling through and listening. like, oh, wow, it's impressive how they did that. But now you look at it. And instead of it just being a handful of soldiers that came back from Vietnam that were pro psychedelics or pro cannabis, now it seems like almost the majority of them are. And maybe it's that cyclical nature,

but it's a higher tide every time. And now, you know, the authority structure that was in place in the 60s has been receding and that the tide has been moving forward. So I do think that the veterans are an incredible. linchpin for the rest of society. I mean, you know, they've given their lives to protect everything they've cared about. And I don't understand how anybody in our country or any other country cannot give back to the veterans if this is something that's helping them.

It just seems like the veterans are always the people at the forefront fighting, whether it's on a foreign shore or whether it's on our own shore, foreign or domestic. Here they are standing up for what we need. Shout out to the veterans out there. Yeah. Yeah, and by the way, we had, when I was working at Herodakart's Project booth, we had a couple of Vietnam vets come by, and they're like, can we get healing? And it's like, oh, yes, you can. I'm sorry, it's so late, but yes.

You know, it's, it's phenomenal that, that these veterans are, you know, and so many of them were, you know, very anti-drugs to begin with. But seeing the healing of their brothers and sisters are like, hell yes, I want that. You know, get me, get me on board. And, you know, now we just have to deal with the, you know, there's so much demand for it, which is, again, why I love that they're now, you know, eight or nine nonprofits and, you know, dealing with helping veterans and, and also first responders because they, you know, they're dealing with trauma every day all, almost every day also. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. it speaks volumes of the level of healing that can happen. And maybe that gets us back to the idea of 2070 and healing trauma in that fashion. It's a beautiful thing to think about. You know what? If we just jump back there for a minute, when Rick Doblin came out, did they lay out like a framework to get there? Like, hey, we're going to do this by 2070.

But did they lay out like, here's how we're going to go. Like, we're going to start off here. Yeah, no. And that would be pretty awesome. And you know, that's a good question. I should have gotten Rick's email address and ask him that. But I'm sure they'll be coming out with that. You know, obviously, their focus right now is on MDMA.

But I would love to see that framework and love to be a part of the work too for that. I bet you we could go on there. I bet you MDMA is like the first leg of the journey. And then they have, you know, I'm sure if we did a little digging, we could see, oh, I see. This is the first half of the can. ball run and then we're going to go here and then here. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's beautiful to think about. And yeah, you brought up another good point. Like I, I hope that maps and the people there will

release a lot of the papers that were presented because what's the point of having all these incredible people go and talk about papers, but then no one else can see them. Hey, we're going to show up to these 20 people. Yeah. Wait, wait, what about everybody else? It couldn't make it. Yeah. Yeah, I really hope so most conferences do. So I really hope they do because, yeah, there are so many, sessions that I wanted to get to and like I said went to the room and it was empty they moved it somewhere where do they move it and look at the app no it still says this room or just other or just caught up with people conversation and all of a sudden you look at your phone oh I just miss that one too so yeah I'm hopeful and if not I hope the individual participants will post those on

LinkedIn or their website or something. Yeah. Do you know if there's any sort of like rules or regulations that say those people can no longer present those papers until they present them there? Because I spoke to a few people that were waiting to talk about things until they presented, which I can understand. But I didn't know if there's some sort of, you know, etiquette or something like that that allowed them to not present it until, you know, so many days afterward. Do you know what about that? Yeah, I think it's kind of a comfort. etiquette. I don't think it's a rule. I think they could do it. But I think it's just, well,

you know, this conference accepted it. And so I should, you know, talk about it there first. But right after that, you know, talk to whoever wants to hear about it. Yeah. For me, as someone who's fascinated by it and as a podcaster, I find that to be particularly irritating. Because everyone's like, I can't talk about it until I present it. And then after they present it, then no one talks to him. So I'm like, I got to go, if you present it up, if you're listening to this, You presented a paper of maps and you want to come and present it again. Look me up, come out here and talk to me. I would love to talk to you.

But it must be also very difficult for the person presenting because there's all this pressure on them. And they get up and they give this presentation and they get a great applause and then they're done forever. Yeah. You know, no one time. And then people ignore them from that point now. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. In a very similar way, Jenny's had this, you know, we had this great hug fest.

but the conference it was so frenetic and so so much packed in that you had like five minutes to hug and chat and then you say oh I got to go got to go and so that's the other thing about it's sort of with the speakers you have that sort of let down like I did it now well whoa it's over and same thing with the meeting people it's like wow this is so great so fantastic and it's like oh wait I'm never going to see that person or am I going to see that person again and so I think that's So my view, I'd love to have this as, I have to think about it. I was going to say 10 regional conferences, but that wouldn't work if we want to, but something smaller or, I mean, it was so pent up because it's been so many years since the last

maps of Psychotic Science Conference. So like everyone's saying, oh, maybe they'll do one next year and, you know, they didn't commit to that, but hopefully something because, and maybe just not try to squeeze. so much in because, you know, it would just be nice to have time to be with people rather than this, this hug. How are you? You have to go good. Love you. Bye. Move on the next part, you know, kind of thing, along with trying to get into the sessions. And then if you're manning a boot, impersoning a booth, you know, being behind there. And so it gets, you know, there's so much time, constraints. That was a big issue too. Man, when I say it like that, it kind of sounds like,

Sometimes in order for, I get, when I say it, when I think about it from that angle, it sounds like there was a lot of people involved that were trying to make a lot of money. And I don't want to say that, but it kind of sounds like when you rush it at that angle, get them in there, get these people over here. We've got to be successful. You can't present your paper. Get over here. Do the booth.

And then you're like, wait a minute, man. I didn't really get a time to sit down and enjoy what that person was saying. I wanted to see these 10 things. I can only see one. It's like going to Disneyland on the 4th of July. Like, yeah, you got to go to Disneyland, but you didn't even get to ride Space Mountain, man. Yeah, yeah. You got a $100 hot dog.

Yeah, or, you know, you're in a, you know, you want to, the speaker is so amazing and you want to connect with them. But there are 100 people in line in front of you, and there's another group of people coming in for the next speech. And so you can. So that, again, ooh, you don't want to be a cool thing to have. would be having like a speaker reception every day where all the speakers of that day are in the room, maybe at the end of the day, because that way if you've heard them, you can go talk up, go up to them and say, loved your speech and can we connect on LinkedIn or wherever? That would be a brilliant idea to have something like that.

Because otherwise, yeah, I mean, you know, I hunted some people down on LinkedIn and just connected that way because there's like, there's no way I'm going to find them again in this conference center. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a great idea. You could have a whole continuing conversation move forward. I don't know. Maybe in some ways it's like the, yeah, I don't know.

In some ways it feels like just all the serotonin invading that receptor. You know what I mean? It's overflowing. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, there were definitely moments. There was this one really long hallway. and at first day, a million people all streaming down

that led to that ballroom. And it just looked, you know, if you kind of closed your eyes a little bit, it was like ants or you can have a little psychedelic experience of watching this sea of humanity going through there. And I just love that. So yeah, there are definitely moments of trickiness going on there and overload for sure.

It would have been fascinating. is if like there could be a thermal imaging of that whole dome. And then you take that thermal imaging of that dome to see what it looked like and then put it up against a brainwave of somebody that's on a high dose to a cylocibin trip to see if there was any similarities. Because it's kind of like one acting out of the other. It's like the manifest the psychedelic manifestation of a psychedelic conference. Yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that idea. Man. Was there, so I know we've covered a couple of takeaways so far. And we've talked about some of the speeches and some of the presentations. What about some of the exhibits? I saw some really interesting, like, artwork that was out there. Were you able to take it any of that?

Okay. So we'll jump into that. So we had the exhibit hall, and I want to come back to that, but we'll talk about the crazy psychedelic experience. So Dr. Bruner Soapes is this. fabulous company based in california originally from germany great story about escaping the nazis and all that but uh david brainer and his brother mike uh the two executive two top executives of the company uh are big supporters of the psychedelic space and so they were a sponsor of this thing this area called deep space and um i meant to send you one of the pictures i forgot to do that

it was, you know, like black lighting, crazy lighting in there. And so as soon as you walk in, it's trippy, it's dark. And then you have all these artists, both, how did I describe it? Actual artist drawing, painting, sculpting, but you actually have performance artists roaming around. And then this beautiful art gallery of all these crazy psychedelic. Prince beautiful. And then you had this crazy dragon in there that I later found out was from Burning Man

and there were some other Burning Man elements in there, artifacts. They had two stages in there, which were almost impossible. And I didn't get to this, but someone told me in the far back they had vibrating beds and headphones with sound therapy that you can just go there and have your own little trip right back there. I escaped from the craziness multiple times there and just sat. There are a couple of little places with comfy chairs. I would just sit, breathe, meditate, calm, look up, open my eyes again, see the craziness

in there and laugh. And then, okay, now I'm ready to go back to the conference. So it was a really neat feature they had. but one of the guards told me that some of the artwork was extremely expensive and rare, but definitely beautiful. So yeah, that was a really, I didn't expect that part of it, but, and of course, I saw David Broder there and had to give her, you know, give him a hug for that too. Yeah.

So that, that was fabulous. And like I said, just a neat place to kind of escape if you were overwhelmed. but they also had some talks in there and actually the artist that if you wanted the woo-woo of the psychedelic conference that's where you went because that was the crazy part but the the exhibitors I just want to I know we're kind of yeah running out of time maybe but not at all we're good okay okay the there were somewhere around 300 plus exhibitors in this exhibition hall and I would say at least a third at least in my perception of it was were mushroom related I have never seen so many mushroom companies from selling functional

mushrooms botanical mushrooms microdosing road kits everything you can imagine and I had a friend who was looking to to grows on mushrooms and So he texts me. He's like, oh, my God, I found the best exhibitor. And I'm buying this grow kit. And I said, okay, well, since I'm driving, I can just all drive home for you. So you don't have to take it on the plane. Yeah.

He's like, oh, no, they ship. I said, oh, that's pretty cool. I said, just to grow material. And he's like, oh, no, they're shipping the spores too. So I can get my, he got a golden teacher. They're shipping the golden teacher. And I'm like, okay, good for you. So again, you know, just, just the openness of these discussions that we could have rather than behind closed doors or behind the black market or the underground market, you know, just to be having these discussions.

And just cool. But yeah, so so many mushroom companies. piece. But, you know, and of course, all the, all the traditional psychedelic nonprofit and organizations that we're aware of were also there. And that was wonderful again to meet those people. A number of business analytics and marketing plan, business plan type people. So that was my sign that, oh, yeah, yeah. You know, and there were also, there's a company doing professional headshots for people. So it's like, oh, yes, we're, we're, again, these little signs of, you know, uplifting the industry to another level, which is in my mind, again, both a little scary

because what's that, what is that level, but also something that has to happen because this industry, we have to move forward. It can't be this little cottage industry. We have to, in whatever method we're taking it, and that's still, you know, we're still debating that, but whatever method we take it, it has to get beyond where we are now in this. little circle because again for the healing for discovering who we really are meant to be you know unless we've done our healing journeys in other ways but for those you know look at you george i you know i well i always will love you because you're the first first podcast i did and you were also the most interested podcast person ever and and have now become a friend and and

but I but look at you I love that you know you're on this healing journey you're you have a career and you're okay with it you're happy with it you you have great people on your route and they they appreciate your work and your service but then as you continue on this healing journey you're like wait this this doesn't really satisfy me doesn't fulfill me this is not what I want to be doing, speaking to people, having these in-depth conversations. This is what I wanted. This is my. And so I, this is what, again, you know, I don't know how I, you know, can't shout this

or say this in a different way, but that's the amazing thing to me about a healing journey is you say, I want real meaning in my life. And I need to find what that avenue is. And for you with your gift of intelligence and personality and curiosity, you found this. And I love this and I laud this because, again, we need these voices. And I love how eclectic. I mean, I love that you were like, I look at, you know, today George, who the heck is George speaking? You live?

Whoa. I love that aspect because, again, all these, you know, we know this from. our healing journey and growing consciousness, all these things are interconnected in one way or another. You know, they are. And we just need to find those pieces and understand that. But anyway, not to pat your back too much, but that's what a healing journey is about, you know?

It's about just discovering your true self and realizing that trauma that happened to you, that maybe you had even forgotten about, but have rediscovered doesn't have to define you. And you also see, whoa, how it has defined me. Oh, I don't like that. I don't like that. You know, I look at back at my healing journey. And, you know, there were moments where I'm really embarrassed by the crap I did,

but I was so deep in trauma that, you know, I literally did not care if I hurt people because if I got what I needed. And so I guess that's why I'm also so passionate about it because I've experienced that in my own life. You know, we have all been traumatized and probably most of us have hurt people because of our trauma in one way or another, either accidentally or on purpose

because we were so angry that we just had to lash out. but when we heal, you know, all that goes away and we find what we want to do. And hopefully, and I know this sounds a little woo-woo, but to people out there, but, you know, I think there's a sense that the universe, God, creator, consciousness, whatever we want to call it, will provide for us. Like, you know, I know we've talked about this little offline, but, and I have other friends, same thing, like, that our, are going into the space and saying, I have faith that this will take off.

And I don't need to be rich from it, but I just need to be able to provide for my family, pay my mortgage, car payment, whatever. And that's all I need. You know, I don't need that million-dollar house in Malibu. I don't need, you know, the G4 or whatever private plane. I just need to have a feeling that I, I am accomplishing something and I am doing something that's helping people and your discussions are helping people and you're learning and you're growing.

So through this, you're actually continuing your journey, which is crazy too. And that's why, again, this whole psychedelic, back to the conference, you know, we were all integrating our lives with each other in that conference and again, now still afterwards because that's what it's all about. It's just continually evaluating, you know, okay, am I on the right path? Am I doing the right thing? What can I do better? You know, oh, I just took a bad step back in my healing journey.

Okay, how can I get back on course? You know, that's all part of this integration process that, I don't know, we should probably just call it living. But, you know, because that's really, you know, when I first got into psychedelic, you're like, oh, yeah, you need to integrate. Oh, what's integration? Oh, you know, a couple sessions where you talk about, you know, what you learned in your journey and how you're going to incorporate your life. A couple sessions. Okay. No, no, no, not at all.

It's the rest of your life, you know. Yeah. So anyway. No, it's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for that. It's interesting. When I look at your profile and I see INFJ, I'm an ENFJ.

So, like, we're so connected in so many ways. And I think that when we talk. talk about integration and psychedelics and the medicine in our journey, what I have come to realize over the last few years as my relationship with psychedelics has begun to mature and be like a marriage in a lot of ways, like I'm married to the medicine. And there's so many lessons that I learned. And one of them is that integration means me becoming more like the medicine. Like if I want to understand how to integrate that I need to do for the people around me what the medicine does for me.

And that means giving other people insights or a different perspective on how they see themselves. Because that's a lot of what that medicine does for me. Is it, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this. And here's something I think that's pretty profound that what psychedelics do is they change the ratio in which we use our sensitive. And for so long we lived in this literate world where things are measured by science and we need to find ways to quantify the subjective experience. It's very difficult to do because we don't have tools for that. There's no way to measure non-Euclidean space.

But somehow we've used language to do it. And that's why language doesn't work. And so when you take psychedelics, what you're doing is you're really finding a way to, to encapsulate this, to encapsulate a, a more holistic approach to seeing the world. It's a unified form of perception. I should write that down.

That's really, but it's a unified perception. And that's what gives you that aha moment. Oh my God, it makes sense now. Yeah, because now you've found a uniform way to look at it. Right?

I'm so blessed that you use those words, to explain what I'm doing, because that's exactly what I'm doing. Like, I walked away from all these things in my life that were not fulfilling for me, or they didn't fulfill me on a level that I found to be a life worth living. Not everybody can do what I get it. And I, but I want, for me, it's imperative. Like, I hear something calling me and pointing me and pushing me in a direction. Like, this is the spot for you.

And I'm like, I don't know how it's going to work. And it's like, don't worry about that. It's going to work. And I'm like, where's all the money going to come from? And the voice is like, do it. Just do it. I don't, it's going to work. Don't worry.

And like, there's something that after that initial anxiety passes, like I'm filled with this sort of, I think faith is like the only real word that gets close to describing it. But it's more than that. It's like, this is it. And I can talk to so many people. And I'm like, oh, my God, I can see what they're saying. And I can provide them this perspective. and just to be here and be in this position where I can talk to a cool friend like you that's so far away,

but yet we have so much in common. And I feel like when our messages meet together, they swirl around and become one message. And then they're pushed back out into the world. And it's such a beautiful time to be alive. And I really think that what we are seeing is a changing of consciousness that is contagious. What we're doing, the psychedelic movement, everybody in this community that I've spoken to is part. of this wave of change that is going to potentially change how we view ourselves, how we see the world and heal trauma, be it generational or familial or personal.

Like it's just fundamentally changing everything. And it's so beautiful to me. And I'm so stoked to be alive right now. And on some level, I feel like there's a changing of the guard. And with the changing of the guard, with a new bunch of people, changing over from from being participants in the ceremony to being the holders or the firekeepers or the elders, however you want to describe it. There's a giant changing of the guard right now.

I really feel responsible in trying to play my part there. And I, you know, it's, yeah, it's interesting to think about, right? Yeah. And I think you are, I think you stepped in that void and you are the perfect person for that. So thank you. But, but, you know, when you were saying faith, and I totally agree with that, but as you were saying, the F, I was saying to myself, freedom. And so it's funny because I, from my healing journey, the, yes, it took a lot of faith and still takes faith. But for me, my overwhelming thing is I just feel free.

Like you break the change. You might even said it earlier. Yes. You know, you've broken those chains. And now it's like, but it's a little scary, right, George? Because it's like, oh, whoa. Absolutely. The chain are broken.

Like, do I escape or do I stay in my, you know, my, do I, oh, do I leave the phone booth with that or do I stay in it, you know? Because the chains give you some security, some protection, some solid ground. Yeah. You know, you might hate it, but like, but I know where I am. It was free. But I love that. freedom. I mean, I love that every day is different. And on days like today where I can speak with you and just have a beautiful conversation. And I'm not tied to so much of the

of the BS of so many jobs that we hold that, you know, I won't go into great detail, but I had one university I taught for where, you know, I'd wake up at three in the morning because they had certain rules. You have to be in the classroom five days a week. week. I'd wake up at three in the morning saying, oh, my God, I was here in the classroom today because I know if I wasn't, I was going to get a nasty email from the university saying, you weren't in the classroom. And I'm like, wait, I don't need this BS. Yeah, I don't, I don't need this crap. This is, this is not education. This is, you know, just minutia. And so, you know, that's when I, that's when I really changed my, you know, sort of embracing from professor to

educator because that's really what I you know what drives me is the and and so that's why I love what I'm you know being on your show I love just the conference and and talking with people because that's that's who I am I just want to get the message out there but it's I now have the freedom to do that because of this healing journey was there like freedom yeah yeah was there a point like what was your relationship with psychedelics when you came to that realization like I don't need this anymore. Like, where were you at on your psychedelic journey? I was pretty deeply into the psychedelic journey and no journeys did it tell me that. So, I mean, I definitely had some messages. And I love, you know, same thing with you as you talked about. And I love your discussion of the

senses because, yeah, I couldn't tell you how I got those messages, you know, and it wasn't some voice on high. It wasn't, you know, round. You know, I don't know, I don't know what it was. but I got them. That's the crazy. That is the crazy part. Your senses are so heightened by all this stuff. Okay, now I just lost where we're going with that. Well, we were talking about.

So, yeah. So I got, you know, a lot of messages. We talked about perspective. And I got really strong messages for some letters I had to write for healing to do that sort of final apologies to people. And also kind of change the community. communication we were doing. So I got lots of those things, but it wasn't ever about profession, but it it was just, yeah, so I was, I would say, you know, very deeply into the psychedelic journeys that I've had and healing experiences that I've had, or it just became, yeah, it just became,

this is, you know, really irrelevant. It's, it's, you know, I love. I love. love in-class teaching or in-person teaching. You know, I love, even though I'm an eye in the classroom, that E-switches on for me. Yeah. Kind of like now. I mean, I mean, you know, I can switch that on if I need to, but, but, you know, when it's all online teaching and it's all, you know, pre-packaged and I have, you know, 1% say in what can happen in the classroom, it just is not, not fulfilling. Yeah. And then you add the micromanagement to it.

Yeah. But yeah, so I think while I had been building in my mind, you know, I think that that healing allowed me. And then, you know, people like you and Tom, our other friend and some others that are just joined just said, hey, I'm doing this. I'm taking this leap of faith. So I said, heck yeah, I'm going to take this leap of faith too because, A, I don't need the aggravation or waking up at three in the morning, sweating over something as stupid as

that and be helping people heal is a million times more fulfilling than whether they know you know basic business principles or whatever else that you know and so that is freedom to me to be able to do that. I love that explanation of it and it does seem like freedom to me. And you know, there's tons of people that have gone before us. Oh, did I lose you there? I lost your volume. I don't know why.

How about now? I can hear you. Check. I got it. Okay. My fault. Yeah. No.

Good. Sorry. Yeah. You know, I love the idea of freedom. And sometimes you don't really know what you have until it's gone. And I mean that in sort of a backwards way. You don't, I didn't know how chained down I was to the monotony of my life. until I broke free of it.

You know, I think of the allegory of the cave, right? Like Plato's allegory of the cave, where you're in this cave and you see the shadows on the wall and you come up with ideas of what those shadows are. But then in some sort of miracle, you break free and you flee the cave. And you're like, oh, my gosh, everything was wrong. I was lied to my whole life. And then you go through this idea of like, well, I can't be too upset

because I didn't know. I shouldn't blame myself. and these other people, they didn't know either. So even though I'm upset that they lied to me, they were doing their best. They're still chained down there. But then, but then like the, you know, everybody talks about the allegory of the cave

and how you break free of the cave. But one no one ever talks about is then you go back into the cave. You know, like that is, and I think that that is part of the medicine too. I think that's part of what you as an author with triumph over trauma have done. It's like, you broke free. You're like, okay, I'm free.

Let's go back in. You know, it's crazy. But that's where the real redemption is, is, right? Yeah. You have to, yeah, you have to go back in that cave and lean into the truth. So, yeah, you had this perception of the truth while you're in there that for some people could be pretty close, but for most people, so far off.

Yeah. And then you, but you have to, you can't, yeah, you escape. Oh, thank God, I'd never go back there. But you have to go back there. You got to go back. You got to go back with this new, enhanced understanding that medicine gives you. and because, you know, the classic line that I didn't get when I first was into this and getting into psychedelics was, you know, the, you have the healing within you. You've always had the healing within you.

The medicine just helps you find it. And I never, you know, in the beginning, I didn't quite understand that. I thought, oh, it's just a good message because we don't want people going crazy with, you know, using psychedelics every day or something like that to keep getting healing. but you know it's true that you get the message that you know you're not broken and if you lean into it you can see as in this mature brain not as your child brain or immature brain or traumatized brain but just as a mature healthy brain you can say oh i i understand that now and now i see these patterns that have all come from that one experience or that one or maybe multiple traumas but and here's how I can and if you don't embrace that if you don't go back in that cave and really

understand it then you won't be free I mean you can you can still get out of that cave and have a a changed life to some degree but you won't have that completely changed that freedom unless you go back and and and I think about that also as surrendering to that to that message but but yeah just leaning into it and understanding it and that's why I could back to my comment earlier about my ego you know that's I'm still fighting that bastard but yeah you have to lean into it you have to say what's causing that why why do I still have that why is that ego still getting that hurt over X you know why is that and so you have to go back back into it and look at it and ah now i see from that episode 20 years ago where that person

did this and this happened and then you can change because you have that knowledge now so yeah i love that so you know cave phone booth yeah yeah and you know what it brings up another point i was thinking about it seems that there's different windows in the process of change and if you look it like say you i'll take take me for an example and this is what i've been thinking about lately like i've broken free on some level from the corporate world and i feel responsible to go back and help as much people as i can and i think there's a window there i think on some level achieving a certain amount of success takes you away from the front lines and the magic of truly being able to empathize with people because once you reach a certain level of

Hey, I know I have, now I have financial freedom. Well, now you're no longer really involved in the struggle. Now you're no longer involved in the front lines. Now you really no longer have those friends that were right there with you that you had the same problems as. So you could talk to them, but you're like, yeah, actually, I kind of forgot what it's like to have a mortgage payment. I kind of forgot what it's like to have to get up and work 16 hours a day. I remember it, but I don't do it anymore. When you don't do something anymore, you atrophy in some ways.

And so I think that for those people, when you're struggling on the front lines or if you find yourself in the battle still, you should be proud of that because that means you're still relevant. That means that you're still have the ability to inspire people. You know, and I'm not saying that you can't inspire people when you reach a certain level of success, but you definitely become tainted, I think, on some level where you're no longer seen. Or maybe, you know, maybe that's it. Maybe it's being invisible. Maybe it's the fact that nobody knows you is what really allows you to make the change, right? Right.

I was going to say almost the same thing. They lose community as they get higher up in that process. So down below, it's where the community exists, but they've lost that. So yeah, invisible lack of community, either one, yeah. Yeah, it's a crazy concept. Yeah, this is why I love talking to you. I always come up with these nuggets of truth. I listen to you.

I'm like, oh, yeah, what about this and that? Yeah. See, that way, great relationship. Yeah, yeah, it's meant to be. Yeah. Well, I think we covered some takeaways, but I don't think we got through all of them. What are some other ones? I, you know, I make this joke because I, you know, I think we've talked about this before, but I walk this fine line.

I love, you know, the celebrities, Aaron Rogers. Right. Aaron Rogers was there. Jaden Smith was there. Melissa Etheridge was there. But to me, they weren't the ones I was excited about. It was the Rick Doblins, the Jesse Gould. the Justin LaPraise.

But so I, you know, but I love, you know, I love that we are getting mainstream attention. Because, again, I'm just, you know, one little guy, as you said, Loon Lake, tiny little town in the middle of nowhere. But, you know, and Aaron Rogers can have a big platform. And so we need, you know, we need people like that, but I just don't want us to be starstruck by them. and, you know, seeing the line of people all wanting to see her. I get it, you know, with fans and all that. But I just, I want the same group to be behind Jesse Gould, behind Rick Doblin and say, you know,

and Rick did get that for sure. I mean, like I said, I just felt so badly for him, both at the conference and since then on LinkedIn, seeing all these selfies with him and his eyes getting, you know, more and more droopy. But, you know, he was so gracious, you know, even when I spoke to him and I debated whether he been speaking to him. But he's just the friendliest, nicest guy. And I just, I just laud that because I, I mean, I know he's seeing success finally, but I would be so weighed down by the struggles, you know, every day.

Nope, not there yet. Nope, not there yet. Now decade two, now decade three. But his attitude is just so refreshing, so laid back. you know, again, you can see the healing within him for sure. Just as you and I have talked about this offline, and we recognize different things in people, whether it's the trauma or the healing.

We, you know, we can see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, I think that there's a, there's always something bigger at play. And like, that's why he is where he is. He is the quintessential person to be spearheading this whole,

change, you know, and we can, I think we can all learn from that, you know, perseverance and sticking to your roots and believing in authenticity no matter what happens and sticking to your dream and, you know, inspiring others. Like, there's so much in there that we can learn from. Yeah, I think perseverance is a great one. You know, probably we should be talking more about that in the future because, again, you know, so much of the farm is a lot. pharmaceutical is here's a magic pill. Right. And now you're now you feel better immediately or tomorrow you'll feel better. And with psychedelics or any healing, it's, it's a process. It's a journey. That's what I call it a

journey because it's not going to happen overnight and you need to persevere and you will have set back probably. Yeah. But there is that light at the end of the tunnel and as long as you're heading toward that light, whether you're taking a couple steps back, but persevereating. But that's, I think we really need to stress that because, you know, again, people are thinking, oh, well, yeah, I can take this. I'll do a psilocybin journey and everything will be fine tomorrow. And it's like, no, no, no, no. That's just the beginning. It's just the beginning.

Right. An important beginning, but just the beginning. So I love that. Yeah. Let's make sure we put that message out there, perseverance for sure. Yeah. And it's interesting the way in which it's becoming marketing. I was talking to a gentleman that's a magician.

Magic Brad is his name. Oh, wow. Yeah, he's an interesting guy. We were talking about the, you know, the similarities between doing magic on a stage and magic mushrooms and the way you perceive things and how you show the crowd something and the medicine shows you this thing. And, you know, he's never done psychedelics before.

And he was explaining to me that he had seen this ad for a place in Costa Rica where you go down and you become enlightened and you're done. And I was like, hmm, not exactly. like that. Not exactly like that. I mean, I think you can, it could be a nice step in that direction. But it's just fascinating to get to see, first off, someone who is, you know, in their 60s becoming curious about using this substance to get rid of a block that they have. That's pretty awesome. And then all of a sudden you get to see some of the marketing that's being thrown in there. Like, oh, here's a person that's just now being exposed to it. And here's what they're picking up.

That must mean that this is the marketing that's out there. And once you know that, you can be like, okay, I see what's resonating with people. Let me come over here next to you and filter out some of this stuff and give you these things over here. And it's a beautiful thing. I really do think that the changes we're going to see are not only going to be in the next generation and their creativity and the ways with laws, but also there's going to be a profound potential for end of life healing and making people. with some of the trauma that you did in the past, right? Yeah.

Yeah, to me, that's such a beautiful aspect of psychedelics, you know, and I know Rowan Griffiths talked a little bit about it because he's facing his own end of life, but, yeah, I mean, to get that peace, you know, you know, ever since the kid, you know, whatever movie or whatever, where you see, you know, the grandparent die peacefully in their sleep at night, you know. And it's always been like, man, I want that, you know. I don't want to die in a horrible car crash or something like that. But I think that psychedelics, you know, if you do have a terminal diagnosis, then psychedelics will give you such peace because, and again, it's just so hard to describe it unless you actually do the psychedelics and have this experience.

But it just changes your outlook on so many things, not only just a healing aspect, but yeah, just perspective. and knowing that there's something beyond. To me, that's, I mean, the coolest thing to me, I've always, I've always been a spiritual person and had some really intense spiritual moments, not like a mystic or something like that, but just this sense of this ultimate power that's sort of like occasionally withdrew me and in me.

And I lost some of that with a traumatic incident in my life, but have gained it back since then. But so what blows my mind with psychedelics is when you have someone who is an atheist or says there's nothing else out there, come back from a journey and say, oh my God, I'm a believer. something out there.

And to me, that's, so again, so back to the deathbed, or not deathbed, but the end of life, that's, that's,

you know, when we're so fearful, like, is this it? Is this the end of life when I, when I pass? And the psychedelics show you,

no, you know, we're spiritual beings. This is just a temperate place that we're in. And that give, you know, from all the research and stories I've seen,

that gives just so much comfort to people. to realize that, you know, not only they get the healing from their past, but also to see that there's a, there's a future for them as well, that this diagnosis doesn't define them, it just defines their physical self, not their spiritual self. This is such an incredible point because it speaks to the very heart of generational trauma. When we have someone that we love that's an elder or older and they're afraid of death or they find themselves, you know, they act a certain way, they act scared, they withdraw, They don't want anybody to see them.

And they're working through these demons, working through these thought processes that are, it's a, it's an enigma wrapped in a whatever that stuff is called. You know, but it's like a, it's a puzzle you can't solve. So you go crazy trying to solve it. And then your family sees that. And then they get scared of death. Yeah. But what happens when someone who is allowed to, when we, it seems to me that when we, when there's an elder who is a. to maintain the dignity of dying and die on their own terms and they're no longer afraid of death,

then the child sees that and they can live their life accordingly. The child who sees someone afraid of death dying on a machine lives their life in that same way. It's like the shadow is cast upon the child and they live fearful. They stay chained to something, whether they like it or not because they're afraid they're going to die. But if you see your grandparents or your parents die in a manner that has dignity, that allows you to live a life without fear or less fear. You know, when you start looking at it, like, let me ask the people listening to this, what would you do with your life if you weren't afraid? What would you do with your life if you weren't afraid? Who would you be? Who would you love? What would you do every day?

Yeah. What would you want to do? Because you can. That's this fear of death that psychedelics, they not only show the older person, don't be afraid to die. They also show you. the younger person, hey, don't be afraid to live. Yes. You know what I mean? And those things are very similar. Wow. Wow. And that that that can be extrapolated

to everything because fear freezes us. You're so right. It's not just fear of death. It's the fear of the wrong decision, the fear of the wrong relationship. And so you know, as you were talking, I thought about, you know, my first

marriage, you know, I should have left that, you know, 10 years before I did, but the fear of being alone, the fear of lack of community, the fear of who am I if I'm now a divorce person and all these things, it's kept me in that relationship so much longer until I, it was actually my healing journey that finally said, you don't need to be afraid anymore, you know, you are healed or you're healing, I guess we're never truly healed, but your healing, move on. You know, not so, you know, get some balls, whatever you want to say. Yeah. Grow up.

Grow up finally. And, you know, and it was this really crazy moments, like you said, where are you like, well, hell, I'm not afraid of being alone anymore. I kind of want to be alone, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then, okay, so file the paperwork. And then that was it. But, and then just, yeah.

just one other thing, just quickly, you know, with my dad, I know we talked to him about him a little bit, but, you know, he, he had cancer, he had multiple cancers, he had multiple chemotherapy session, multiple radiation, multiple surgeries. When he died, he looked like the people from the concentration camps. All you could see was bones. It was, it was, that memory lasted for me for about a year. I couldn't see him any other way but that and it was really haunting to me. But you're right. I live with that fear for many years that cancer was going to kill me just like him. And it was a shadow. You are 100% right until I luckily had this beautiful doctor, GP, who said, well, what did your father do? And I said, well, he's an organic chemist. He's like,

well, okay, a lot of those chemicals are carcinogenic. And, you know, and he's, you know, and he's a And I said he was a lifelong smoker. Well, there's number two. And he said, you know, no, your father's life does not define your life. And, you know, I never was a smoker because I saw what he did. And so, but I had to get over that shadow. Yeah. And that fear, yeah, it paralyzes us.

So I love that. Thank you for that. Yeah. I mean, it's so mesmerizing to me to just to think. think about it from that angle and you know and maybe what we're maybe this is the power of psychedelics like it allows you it psychedelics paralyze the fear in a way you know what I mean like they they paralyze the fear and they just pause it for a minute so that you can get a good look at like okay how long have I been afraid of my own shadow this is ridiculous like just just stand up for a minute

and see what happens and then I don't know I really think that there's a giant connection between psychedelics and understanding what fear is. And maybe it's part of the brain that lights up. Maybe it's seeing yourself in a third person point of view. Maybe it's sense ratios. I don't know what it is. But I know for a fact, psychedelics change your relationship to fear. And I really am so thankful for that.

And maybe that's what healing is. Maybe healing is no longer being afraid. You know, and there's all these words about courage or standing up or fear. But, you know, I really am just so good. grateful for the time we live in. I'm so grateful for the beautiful people in my life from all my friends that I've ever worked with for all the tragedies that have come my way and for the big tragedies that really brought me to my knees and made me ask why me why like those kind of instances are the greatest gifts that you'll ever get in your life and I know that sounds crazy

to say but you know it's like it's like Hank Foley says right now here let's put him up on the board here. Hank. So he says, I agree, guys. Living authentically includes how we sec, how we exit it. And then he talks about witness Roland Griffith's calm, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Well, first of all, you know, we both love Hank. Yeah. And I owe, I will always owe Hank because Hank introduced me to you. So we'll be very great, always grateful to him. But yeah, I mean, I yeah I well first of all you know I just love Roland Griffith but yeah his calm his demeanor about it and then even in in the some of the discussions and how to change your mind in the docu-series there was

you know several of the people that went through that had cancer and I went through the same treatment and yeah again the calmness they have it you know Hank beautiful word you know they just have this piece about them that yeah I know it's coming but it doesn't have to be something I fear it could be something I actually embrace because you know I just read this I have to give a shout out I just read this I've been so focused on nonfiction for the past three years you know I I I am just a and I think like you Jordan you know we're just research nuts we want to get so we want to read it understand it, but I just read a first fiction one because Jeff's a good friend of mine. And it's called Path to Perfectia, the Path to Perfectia.

And it's so hard to describe, but he would be an awesome guest because he's hilarious too. Yeah, we're writing it down right now. But he just presents this just really fantastical version of that perfectia is kind of a, a version of heaven, but it's not any religious base. It's just this beautiful place where all the souls hang out. And people come to Earth to experience and live a certain story. And they don't remember their eternal souls because that is blocked from them so they don't have conflict. It's funny, before the, now with the Matrix, we all say the Matrix, but before the Matrix,

you know, when you had these little deja vu moments, you're like, yeah, what was that? And then the matrix could have made, oh, yes, that was a little break of the matrix, you know, but I think that is, there's something to that, that those moments are like, whether we think about it as overlapping dimensions, like some physicists say, you know, there are maybe infinite number of overlapping dimensions. So I'm talking to you on this one, right, on another one I'm dead or whatever, or another one I'm not, who knows, who knows, but, um, Or whether it's that or whether this idea that we are spiritual beings that most of the time live or exist, not live, but whatever, exists somewhere else, but come down to earth for this novel experience. I don't know, but anyway, it's a, it's just, I told Jeff it's a book that is, oh, how did I word it?

I can't remember the exact words like you. I should write this down, but it's trickily, it sneaks you in. And it starts off with sort of like, it's a wonderful life and oh, yes, it's beautiful. And then it just sucks you in deeper and deeper. And so you get you get caught up and you think, oh, this is just going to be kind of a light book. I can skim. But some really interesting. Yeah.

So a good book to read and he would be a great guest to have too, definitely. Yeah. Give me, I want to, when we're done, send me all the stuff. Yeah. I love fiction. And I, you know, sometimes I think it's all fiction. You know what I mean? I start reading these nonfiction books and I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute, this whole thing right here, you know, and it's interesting.

I don't know. I'm surrounded by books and I love stories and I love talking to people and it's so interesting how the same way you can see your trauma and someone you're talking to, so too can you see yourself in every book that you read, you know, good ones anyways. Yeah. It's interesting. There's all these metaphors. we're all open books, you know, and it blows my mind to think about. Writing to the next chapter of the book. Yeah, yeah.

Who knows? Maybe even you'll have a new book coming out soon. Yeah. Well, actually, I will. That'll be a future discussion. You know, we said this on an earlier podcast, but, you know, I never planned to write triumph over trauma, but that was, you know, again, the LSD told me, I mean, again, it sounds so crazy to people unless you've done a psychedelic journey.

but, you know, the LSDs in whatever form, my own consciousness or the consciousness of the world, or as you said, who knows? But this message was loud and clear. You are writing this book, but it's not about you. It's about these storytellers. And when I finished the book, you know, maybe two weeks after I finished the book, Jen turned to me, my partner turned to me and said, so what's the next one going to be about? And I said, no, no, no.

You know, this is like, you know, putting a sausage together. It's not really pretty. The final thing is beautiful, but the input is horrible and lengthy and tedious. And yet about two months later, three months later, all of a sudden, I'm thinking ideas are percolating. and and it's and I think that's part of the healing journey journey also is yeah I think I think you feel this George yeah I don't know how to describe it but almost like a wind behind me or a gentle hand pushing me it's not it's not forcing me but I just feel lighter I feel like this message of healing is is one I was really meant to do from you know day one.

but I didn't learn it until, you know, a year ago or whatever. And that's the other cool thing about healing is we, again, just discover these things about ourselves that have been there all long, but we've either been too busy, too traumatized, too fearful, to actually explore those areas. And so that's also one of the sort of neat side benefits of healing is exploring these parts of you that you never knew existed, really. And but I love, I love the sense of, so yeah, so there is a new project in the works. And Todd Lyman is also a neat person. He's working on a book right now too. When I did the healing seed, because I, I've always been fascinated by Johnny Appleseed

because I've always had a passion for nature. and it just hit me one night that I want to be like Johnny Appleseed. I want to be this person that spreads these, and just like you're doing, these little seeds of healing. I'm not a healer, but I can spread the message and say, just give a little spark, like just try this or think about this way and just give them a different perspective to life. And so the healing, so Todd texted me right after I posted,

change my name on LinkedIn and said, if you're not giving away seeds in future things, I'm going to be really supportive to you. And I said, I said, just wait. Things are coming. It takes a little while to build this infrastructure. But

yeah, because you know, psychedelics will always be a primary healing modality for me because I just see the power in cutting through the BS. You know, I can talk to a therapist for five years and I can control the situation

and never talk about anything I don't want to talk about. The psychedelics are going to say, oh, no, you're talking about it today. That's what I love about psychedelics. But, you know, there are people like Tom DeNardra that I mentioned earlier that are finding the same healing deep, deep into meditation where he is in some totally different form of consciousness, just as we do with psychedelics. So it just brought me to this path of, well, let's just identify all the healing modalities. And I look for, again, I look for books that say, you know, there are books on yoga,

there are books on meditation, there are books on breathwork, books on psychedelic. But there's no book saying, wait, here. all the different ways we can heal. So that'll be a future topic. Yeah, we'll talk about that more. I'm excited, man. Yeah. The one last thing I definitely want to mention before we get distracted more about

the conference, which was the most exciting, other most exciting thing to me was, and I was kind of caught off guard by this, the number of people at the conference that were either currently therapists, whether it's family therapist or a psychologist, that wanted to learn about how they might incorporate psychedelics into their practices once they become available to do that. And there were so many conversations about that. And it really warmed my heart because that's one of the big hurdles we have. You know, if, let's say MDMA does get approved, hopefully it will.

and then psilocybin the next year gets approved for therapy, well, we need to have the therapists that are trained and legally allowed to do that. So of those 12,000 participants, a good, healthy number were ones that were therapists looking to do that. And then there were also a large number of people that were, hey, I want to become a facilitator or a guide. How do I do that?

And there were a number of organizations there, including Be True to you, that coach, that do train train people to be coaches. So that to me was really exciting because we need these people. Yes, you can do, once you've done psychedelics, you can do your own journey.

You don't need a guide. You don't need a therapist. But for a lot of people, especially the first time, if they don't have a partner or don't have a safe place, then a therapist or a guide makes sense to do that. So the more trained people we have ready

one that light bulbs or that you know switch flips to legal or therapy model that the people are available to to administer that yeah yeah i think that that is a it's a beautiful thing and i think it speaks volumes of where we're headed and where we're at and the the date with destiny that is upon us right there yeah you know it's it's beautiful to think about but randall as we're coming up as we're landing the plane here, this conversation, I could probably talk to you for another hour and a half. I feel like we've made it about halfway through all the pages in my notes.

But, you know, it's always an incredible time. I love talking to you. I love you. You are an awesome person. Tell Jenny, I love her. And I'm super stoked on all the things you guys are doing.

Before I let you go, where can people find you? And what do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Definitely find me on LinkedIn. That is by far the, best way. They can connect with me there. I publish a healing newsletter there about every two weeks with a new article so they can find me there and join that, join the newsletter. I'm just excited about where we are right now, George. You know, we, it really hit me that we are living history.

Yeah. And that kind of blows my mind. I mean, yes, you know, I, you know, cell phones are part of that because I grew up with a landline and the iPad or tablets and all these things. But those are, I mean, those are dramatic changes in technology. But this is a historic life-changing thing. And we are not only living it, we are participants in it. And that, you know, I hit that hit me somewhere on the road. and it just kind of like blew my mind. It's like, you know, it makes me feel like, again, you know,

I don't want to compare psychedelics to the civil rights movement or things like that because that was vitally important. But so is healing in my mind. But I just think about those people that lived in that moment that we're doing, that walking those protest marches and they were part of history. And we now are part of a different history, but it's still we are participants in this and we can make an impact and we are making an impact and that's all i wanted what like triumper trauma all i wanted was you know if one person finds healing i'm happy

and i actually heard from someone that bought the book and um she did a psilocybin journey and it did save her life and she was close to taking some pills and ending it. And so, and it was a friend of a friend. It's the only reason I knew because a friend said, wow, this person just told me, you know, the story and you should know about it. And then we were able to, I was able to contact this woman who, who got healing. So, so that, that's what I want. That's what I'm excited about. I'm excited about this wave of healing that we're on, this wave of, of, of understanding each other, better of coming at each other with compassion rather than anger or suspicion or fear. And then, yeah, next time we'll talk.

If people want to, are curious, then go to heal me whole.com and they can find out what the next project is purporting out to be. Yeah. Well, I got a feeling people are going to love it. And we'll hang on for one second. I'm going to hang on with the people, but I talked to you briefly afterwards. Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as Ran and I did.

We'll be back. We're going to start doing something regular. So at the last Friday of every month, we will be coming on and chit-chatting and telling some people about the things we're feeling and the projects we got coming up and given our P's and Q's on this whole psychedelic community. And so thank you so much to everybody who participated. Tom, Hank, Adam. everybody on you everybody out there we love you guys we're so stoked that you're here and uh it's such a beautiful time to be alive that's all we got for today aloha