TrueLife - Rangarajan Padmanabahn - Existential Psycotherapy #1

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Todays we speak with Rangarajan Padamanabahn. We dive deep into the ideas of life, psychedelics and the results they produce e when used in harmony.

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. We are here with an incredible thinker. And I know what you're thinking. Like, George, how is he an incredible thinker? You're going to find out just by talking to him.

I've had a brief conversation with him. I love this guy. So just how should I, why don't you take a moment to introduce yourself to the couple people watching? And if anybody has any questions, you can put them in the chat. But take a moment to introduce yourself. Hi, I'm Ranga. I grew up in India, having a very focused life of, you know, living the life of complete set of tasks. Then I came to do my master's, which was an important task in my journey.

of completing life, right? And I came to Canada and I studied my master's here, but I realized seeing many people here that I was not interested in the field that I was working on, which was mechanical engineering. So I took some time off after my master's. And I also had experience with psychics, which kind of opened me up to being interested about mental health to begin with and slowly. went on to understanding what's happening within, right?

The whole idea of psychology. So I've been interested in the field of psychology for the last two, three years. I haven't had a formal education in psychology yet or maybe never. I don't know about that. But I'm right now trying to connect with people in the field of psycholics, trying to find what ways I can contribute to the field. what are the things that I can bring to the table, trying to just spread awareness beginning from there and getting interested in newer models. One of those models that I came across recently was existential psychotherapy and how much that models can be tried to incorporate into the field of psychology and, you know, help people.

At the end of the day, that's all we are here to do. That's a great answer. And I want to unpack that a little bit. So one thing that I wanted to start with is that you talk about what you can bring to the world of the psychedelic community. And in the short time we've been talking, I think that there is an incredible story you have to share. Like you go from mechanical engineering and fundamentally changing all your ideas. It was like an awakening, it sounds like. You went from I want to be this to I want to be this.

Is that something that psychedelics did for you? Did you find that notion after using psychedelics or? 100%. 100%. So I am not certain about a lot of things. And I have understood that being uncertain is what the life is about, understanding the chaos, not wanting certainty. But in the past, you can be certain about certain things, right?

Like, this is the reason, pass and effect. This is the cause that happened. So one of the major causes was psychics because I was growing up in India, most people are driven into engineering or doctor. I wasn't too interested in biology. So I did engineering. And one of the things I did, the reason I did mechanical engineering was I had no other person to look up to. My dad did mechanical engineering.

I asked him, he said, it's good. Do. So I did it. And I got a chance to do master's. And I came here, I did. But the best thing that happened coming to Canada was seeing a lot of different streams. right. Engineering was one of the 18 streams that was offered at University of Waterloo and I was wondering, wow, there is more to this life studying wise and just this. But I couldn't

stop my master's midway because I have to go back to India, which would be kind of taking a back step because one of the things I loved about Canada was the open-mindedness, being able to be who you are, having that setting where you don't have to think too much to say, what you want to say. As long as you're not poking other person in the nose, you're the freedom of speech, right? And so once I completed my master's, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I wasn't interested in anything. So at that point, I was just interested in maintaining surviving life. So yeah, I did big jobs. I was driving for Uber, Amazon. It was nice because it gave me this so-called control. I just chose when to work, when not to work.

And, you know, I made this whatever money, right? It got me sustaining through that particular month. And those were the period when the question started happening. Like, why are we pushed to earn so much money? At least for me, it was the case that, you know, you complete masters and you have to earn this much. Let's say, 80,000 or whatever, right, the package. And maybe I don't need it. Like, why do I need it?

And then I don't have the desire to. do this, buy this. I wasn't interested in buying new stuff at that point. And one of the reasons that got stronger because I didn't make enough money to buy new stuff, which was nice, right? You kind of, after some point, you lose the desire to, oh, I don't want anything because I can't get it.

And you're okay with it. You accept it. And then psychedelics happened, right? Where I was still having a lot of this, I would say, carrying the baggage of the past, like the identity, the traumas and stuff. And what Cyclics did was just take a moment where I just stopped thinking about it. So I was standing in this balcony and I was seeing a tree.

I feel like that was the first time I looked at a tree. Like the first time, I'm like, oh, this is beautiful. And it also felt like this is simple. Like existence is simple. Why did I feel like it was such a burden? Having to live every day felt like a burden. I have to do this, do that, do that. No one is telling me, that's the best part.

No one is coming to you and telling you, you need to do this. But the ignorance of not knowing better leads to the compulsion. Like, I need to get this done. Right. So that day I realized, what was this? This seems so like, it seems very lightning. I breathed for the first time. I was aware of my breath for the first time.

Now, two years later, I got introduced to meditation courses and I understand how much breathing is important. But for the first time, taking control of your breath, it's like, wow, okay. Everything that, as we have been sensitized to and we have forgotten the magical touch, Cygallics, you know, kind of takes you out. It takes you out of that.

I think it's how to change your mind. They talk about the default mode of network, right? And it takes your thing from there. So you're not acting fear-based or what is life? Like we are the major things that's happening, right? Anxiety and depression. One is of the past and one is of the future. Yep. Yeah. And you're actually in the present moment, but those two seems to cease to exist. Yep. And it shows you the potential that, oh, I am actually responsible for fixing myself. right and yes honestly one trip is not gonna like magically make your life you turn of course because two three days later you're still having the glow yeah goes down it's like ah man i need to get up i need to do this

yeah right yeah but now you know you you you have seen something beyond yourself beyond this mundane duties and push and so on and it's free knowing that yeah so yeah you're required was with the rest of the book. Yeah. It's beautiful. So it's, it's awesome. I really think that that's kind of what's happening now is that people are, and sometimes I hate to use the word waking up, but it seems to me we are becoming aware of what is important.

And I think that that takes us into this existential crisis our country seems to be having. Like, hey, guess what? The media isn't selling as much stuff. Oh no, they're freaking out. They want to go to war. You know, and if you think about this idea, that you're not being told, no one's telling you you have to go participate. No one's telling you have to make more money. But they are communicating it to you all around every book,

every magazine, your teachers, your bosses, your neighbors. Everybody is in this world of competition. And in the end of the day, they're just competing with themselves, but they don't understand that. Maybe some people do, but it seems to me, and I know this because it happened to me, when you don't have these moments of clarity where you go to the mountains, and you see yourself from a third person point of view, you know, when you, when you just are in the game, it's very difficult to stop and understand, hey, why am I doing what I'm doing? And it sounds like as an engineer into a psychologist, you've, you've started asking the question from how do I build it to why do I build it? Yeah. So I guess it takes us to existentialism a little bit.

Like, do you see that the crisis happening in our world today because so many people have gotten to the point where they can't take it anymore? Is that what's happening? Definitely. It's the so-called burnout. It's just that everywhere. And right now, people are trying to take a week or two weeks off or changing jobs. That's not going to help you because you can change a thousand jobs.

The loop is going to stay the same. You're going to get up. You're going to brush your teeth. now work from home. I'm talking about before work from you're going to suit up, you're going to go to office. That's going to be there. The two weeks you take feels relieving.

It's like taking the knife out of the thing and putting some band-aid, right? It's pretty much that. We have not started healing the wound. The wound needs to be healed. And why does the wound exist in the first place? It's a question. I feel like it is a invalid question, I would say. say because everyone is going to go through a trauma. Trauma is going to happen when there is no

self-awareness. It's like the baby that comes out of the mom connected by the umbilical card. When the doctor take it out, they're going to cut it. Right. The umbilical cord is like the trauma. It's not a bad thing. It's not a good thing. It's just it's it is what it is. It was sustaining life. Right. As the baby is growing doesn't matter what kind of the parents we have like really good parents, really bad parents. Anything is going to push us to, you know, because we are still learning the ways of life and, you know, we don't tap the answers to everything and there is, and languages, it's so hard to communicate things with people because it's a complex set of emotions that's going on and we barely manage to just scrap the top by saying things in words, right?

So a kid is going to be traumatized. So trauma, trauma is not a bad thing. what one needs to do growing up is the so-called waking up. Waking up is not a bad thing. You're just waking up to understanding why am I doing it? Why am I running? I need to stop.

Why am I doing this? That's all. The question does not happen when life is blissful and everything is good. You get a job right after your master's. The first girl you date is good. Like you're settling on. Your family is happy.

Everything is going on well. There's no need to question. Because life is good. But the sadness is underneath that. Something is missing out, right? That's why I believe suffering is very integral for humans. Like, it is, you know, as Ramtha says, suffering is the sandstone of the soul. It is quite essential.

When we suffer, when we are to the point of complete frustration, that's the first time we ask question because I never asked question. I wondered, I was 22 years by the time I finished my master's and had my first trip. Until that, I never asked the question, why am I doing? it or what do I need to do, right? I felt like there was already a plan for me because I'm born in this religion, so I'm going to do this religious dates. I'm born into this particular cast, so I have this set of ways I'm going to live. And I've got the opportunity to do master. So I need to use it. I need to use it. The compulsiveness, it is there. It comes if you're not

aware of why you're going to do it. Yeah. So that's a beautiful. answer. There's a lot in there. And I, I really admire the line you're taking on that. But I think, okay, so let me, let me, let me, let me, let me say this because I think it ties in nicely. When it's almost like a death in a way, like when you come to the realization that your life is good, but you don't love it. Like, part of you has to die when you, we talk about Charlie, part of you has to die so that you can be reborn into this new form. Yes. Right? And so, that takes us into this idea of death. A lot of people are scared of dying

the same way they're scared of the trip, the same way they're scared of cutting the cord. If people can begin to see the world in like that fractal manner, you cut the core to trauma, then you become, now you're no longer the baby and the mom. Now you're your own organism. Each part of life, you must die

so that you can be reborn. And so what you talk a lot of, you have some different ideas on death. Can you maybe address some of the things I was thinking about there and then point us in the direction of why people might be scared of death? What do you think death is? How do you define death? Death is so it's one truth that is death of the physical body, right? And the consciousness trapped into it acting as this unique individual with a certain set of personality, characters, ideologies and so on, right? So that is a physical death

Which growing up Oh believe me I couldn't say one word about death It's as if like the moment I mention it I'll bring death upon family Right It's a taboo It's a huge taboo

And so you know When something is taboo growing up You're really afraid of it You're not going to talk about it Right now for me The question started again Everything is relevant to psychedelics here because in that moment, what you thought you were, dice, right?

Ceases to exist, right? Like, when I say, you're dead, let's say, you're dead in the future, right? What dies? The set of characteristics that you carried, like, oh, George, this guy, he's an amazing guy, who's going on a podcast, right? And those days. So tomorrow, you change your name, you go to some other place, you know, you start up some other business, you're a completely different set of stuff.

You're a different person with a different set of ideas. Is the Georgia in you died? Maybe. Maybe. You're not your physical body. You know, you're talking about parts have to die and get reborn. What is consistent in our life? Like, we might think the facial features and stuff are consistent, but the skin cells

keep dying every single second. You know, I don't know the actual number, but they say in one year or 10 years, you know, you recycle pretty much your old self. I don't know the exact number, but that's true, right? So when it comes to the mental domain, it's our clinging to the ideas that keeps us existing, right? And you see that throughout the world, people having last name, empire, carrying the legacy,

it's all about some way of keeping themselves going on. Yeah, it's true. At the end of the day, it comes to that, And that I say is the fear of death because I don't want to leave this. I want to be here. Some way I want to be here. Yeah. Yeah.

Because people are not as I see in psychilics, you're nothing more than the awareness. You're the pure awareness. You're aware of what's going on. You're nothing more than that. Yeah. The rest of the things, we might feel like we are doing it, but it's happening. So when you truly realize you're just awareness, that awareness is going to die someday and that's fine.

And now if you're not your physical body, you're not your ideas, there is no more clinging. It's easier said than done, of course. But when you're not even getting into the framework of thinking yourself as awareness, but if you're in the egoic mindset of I am this body with this ideas, with this personality's virtues, I have this thing about good, bad and so on.

Now you want that to sustain. Right. And Freud, I know I'm just jumping. of topic. Freud was attacking the topic of death. He got to death. The next thing beyond one level about death is the continuation of survival, right? How do you do it? If I'm going to die, something of me has to sustain. So I am going to have my child who's going to carry my legacy. So that's where he said, we are going to be trapped in our sexual world. We are, because it's about, he talks about castration.

men have fear of castration. Fear of castration is nothing. You're going to cut my seed? No, I need to plant it before you cut it. So that's it. But if you take a step back, you'll realize that fear of castration comes from fear of death again. Right? Yeah.

The root cause is always going to be the debt because before humans became, we're slowly waking up. It's going to take thousands and thousands of fears, right? We're at a point of there is certain awareness. We're still 99% of it. of her subconscious is not even gone through. There are people who meditate and get to their subconscious. I'm talking about, let's just talk about me. There is so much that I compulsively do.

And, you know, I stop it right the moment I do it or sometimes I just enjoy. Let's say I have a smoke or I'm craving a sweet drink, right? I know. And these are happening due to evolutionary reasons, you know? They say I read this and you all know are these Sapiens book. Okay. Why do we like sugar so much? So back in those days, as humans were hunter-gatherers, whatever was fatty substance, we had to collect more and we had to eat it a lot

because those were the energy reserves because we didn't know when we were going to get the next meal. So our body is adapted to that. It's still, evolution is so slow. Mind can rapidly develop, technology can rapidly develop. But the body is going to take its time. And tens of thousands of years before what we were needing now has become the problem. Because now you have Uber Eats and stuff. You tap. Who is there?

30 minutes. You put $1.99 of prioritization. 15 minutes. Amazing. So you don't need to reserve stuff. But if you are not aware why we are doing it, we're going to automatically reserve. And one of the things why I came to hear because survival instinct, before people could become self-aware, life has to sustain. So life's primary goal, even according to Darwin's theory, survival of the fittest, what does it do?

The only thing that drives life to continue is adaptation. And that comes from, I need to survive, I need to survive. There is no question of why I need to survive. right and that question was the awareness was not there to us and that's fine at some point we didn't have the senses to us when we were cells there is no mouth there is no nothing we were just joining with other cells and then you become the water animal you're still having a certain bit of senses you have a mouth you know there are fishes that has just mouth intestine direct to the anus that's all a simple model right and you start adapting adapting adapting adapting you

start growing the senses, now you, we have come to the point where we are able to, the so-called self-awareness is nothing, but why is this happening? What's the point? When you do that, I feel like we need to let go of all the things that drove us here. And that includes everything, every single thing that drove us here. So when we are able to truly let go of the past, past, as people say depression caused by past is not just our lifetime. It's 100,000. It's 100,000. of thousands of years, the whole evolution, the whole thing that has happened before you, the whole history that has made you exist at this point, the whole thing needs to be let go of. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so that makes me think, might a good way to look at it be we are like a thought in the mind of God. It seems like we're evolving as one structure. You know what I mean? Like, if you, sometimes it helps me to think of it like that. And I've been doing a lot more, but I've been tripping a lot more too. So I've really begun to embrace this idea that we are just one giant organism. And if you want to be happy and successful in life, you need not pay attention to all the distractions, but that voice in your head, that one in your heart, the one that feels sad when you have a good life, but not a great life. Like that is the siren song calling you to action right there. It seems to me that like it's that voice that's pulling us together.

You know what I mean? Like I think of mushrooms. Okay. And when you look at a root of a tree and you see the mushrooms, they go and they take nutrients from A and they move it to B. And there's just the whole property underneath is amazing. I think that that's us as human beings. Like we're all like a little one little root and we're trying to connect to other people. and in doing so we make the world better with more connections.

What do you think? Is that in the mind of, can you talk a little bit about us being one organism versus an individual? And how do you square that? Individuality arises again as a very egoic thing. Ego is not to do with, I growing up, the word ego was introduced to me in the sense that egos of attitude, show off and so on. But having had psychedelics, I realized ego is none of those.

It is attachment. It was purely attachment to this. So in that sense, what is individuality is just restricting ourselves to this body? Just this single vessel, right? I see. The thing you were talking about, the roots under the tree. Have you seen fungi on Netflix? I've seen parts of it.

It looks amazing. It is amazing. They add this animation video of what's happening underneath and it's beautiful. And you know about mycelium, right? And it's just connected throughout the world. It's throughout the world. And just because one doesn't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Right.

And when it comes to us being individuals, people might think we are limited just to this body and stuff. But are we truly? Like, you know, you're sitting there and, you know, I come. to your place and I'm going to throw your phone which is like 10 meters away from you, you're going to get offended. The phone is you, right? Yeah. And your body is consistently interacting with the nature.

Like the food you eat, the food becomes you. Yeah. The air you breathe becomes you. And your skin is in consistent contact with the atmosphere. So there is always an exchange of information, right? It's according to our senses, we limit. to what we see, right? And that's so, on one way,

atheism is very strong where, like, I won't believe what I don't see. Yeah. I mean, I saw me the other day, it was very funny because this person sitting on the couch and saying that I'm strongly atheist, I don't believe what I see. And, you know, these Wi-Fi signals coming

and these browsing. Like, I don't see the Wi-Fi show. I shouldn't believe it. But I know Wi-Fi exists, right? Yeah. It's like that. We can't be limited to just, what our senses tell. Our senses are equipped based on our surroundings. It is not the objective

truth. It's subjective. It's in relation to the environment that we are existing and we are able to see what it is. Okay, this is what I need for surviving. This is what I need to keep going. So I'm going to adapt myself to that point. So in that question comes now having had self-awareness, we're going to go to to the topic of one organism, right? Now people are starting to question, like, what is the point? What is the purpose? Right? Because for 500 years or something back, purpose was defined primarily by religion, right?

You need to do a good life and you go to heaven, right? And it's like heaven and hell are kind of like this physical places or spirit places where, you know, you go after dying. But it's, you know, we are slowly starting to understand. It's none of those. Heaven and L is here right on earth. It's the mindset. Yeah.

It's the energy with which you're living. It's as simple as that, right? So when we truly ask the question, what's the point? It doesn't help in evolution. Maybe. Maybe not yet. Maybe it actually does. I don't have an understanding of that.

But at this point, given, so the survival, asking the question, why am I here? opens up the new ventures where you're trying to go beyond your sense perception, right? In that idea, as I said, since we are connected to everything, why do we draw the line? What is just you? Are you going to be limited to your house or your city? Why are you going to draw the line? There is no clear line. There is no clear line whatsoever.

So in that sense, there is just one. There is just one organism. and it's not big or something as we think. It is in the quantum physics, it is in the state of quark which just arises and passes. It is just that. It's a simple motion that's happening consistently. It's just, right?

And the beauty of quantum physics is, it has boggled my mind where, so these quarks are in a state of superimposition. And you kind of. get to decide what state you want it to be. Is it going to be a wave or a particle? But it's a paradox because you are nothing but the complex interactions of those trillions of those small things.

So it's kind of like which came first, chicken or egg. The question is not that. That's why I tend to believe it's more of a predeterministic thing this whole life. Right. If you're able to step out of time, you realize that whatever needs to happen. has happened and you're just here experiencing it through this perception of change when change is involved time comes into play right because there are times i've been trapped in this uh single moment in my trip and yeah oh my god time is not moving time is not moving yep and that makes me question

where is time yeah the clocks are there the sun is rotating those are fine but what is time Like, you know, the first time you get out of time and you realize time does not exist the way. Yeah. If you think, and it boggles your mind. And yeah, that's the part. It leads to a set of questions, right? Right. Right.

And that curiosity is the beauty of it. If one gets to be continuously curious every day, whatever happens, right? You have to, in meditation, they say you have to accept whatever is happening, right? without questioning it. It's a state of choiceless observation. Don't try to intervene. Don't try to interact. Don't try to change.

Just observe. The truest change happens when we are observing it. And whatever we conceive as problem that cannot be solved with a thinking mind. It has to arise out of complete silence and stillness of the mind. It's in the wisdom. The answer is always like, No one has ever got anywhere with thinking.

Got themselves in trouble. You're thinking too much. You're thinking too much. Again, those are, it's so easier than said, right? Because if someone is sad, it's like, don't be sad. No, we know it's quite hard. We're so tied up, caught up in this emotion, right? Yeah.

To understand that we are not our emotions is our first step. And then the journey begins. I don't have to react to my emotions. I'm never reacting to the world. I'm always reacting to my emotions. I get my emotion because of my past, whatever algorithmic model I have. Oh, just pisses me off.

There was this vegetable that I don't like in the favorite dish of mine. I'm going to get pissed off. Yep. Yeah. I think, too, like, I want to take it to time for a minute. That got me thinking. Yes. Because there are these moments in life.

And in the beginning, you just catch a glance of it. But the more you become aware of it, like you start seeing time as it's just a word that's made up that people try to explain. There's all kinds of time. There's like right now. There's high time. There's Miller time. There's daytime. There's night time.

There's all these times, man. And it's just a prison. It's this way for you to take everything out and just focus. That seems to me how time has been manipulated, especially in the last since the days of, um, since we become an industrialized country, like we have just decided that, okay, we can't focus on all these existential systems.

We just got to work about time. You know, so I think that once you start seeing it, all of a sudden you can start seeing the cracks. That was a big one for me. So that's one way to help really make me see the world different, is you just focus on time. And all of a sudden,

I start thinking about history. And I'm like, it's right there. It's right there in the word, his story. You know what I mean? It's his story. And you start looking at like, there's this amazing book by Anatoly Famanko

and it's called History, Fiction or Science. And he goes back and he, by using the lunar calendar and showing the cyclical time of, of when the, what is that called when the sun goes in front of the moon? It looks. Yes. So you can tell, like those happen all the time. That's a great measurement of time.

And so this guy goes back and he looks at, there's this problem called parameter D. And parameter D in history is a problem because it says that there wasn't an eclipse for this 500 year period of time. And so this guy's like, wait a minute, you're telling me there wasn't an eclipse for 500 years? So he goes back and he starts researching.

And what he finds out is that in the Middle Ages, there were like two people, at least for the Western culture. there were two people in in like the middle ages of Europe that came up with this calendar like it was called a patavius scallinger and these two gentlemen like if you think about that time there wasn't a whole lot of literacy at least in the written world yeah so imagine a time and a place where we're just starting to keep records oh we're going to we're going to say that uh jesus was here you know that you just start making stuff up to the best you can i'm not saying they did it to they had no various reasons they may have some but you know they were probably trying to figure it out themselves. And this is really relevant because if you think about us getting it wrong there when we began keeping records. So, okay, history is messed up. Now we're at the same time again in history where we have internet starting now.

And now we're starting to keep these digital records. So if we have built a foundation of history that was a problem in 1500, we've gone off track like this far. You know what I mean? So, yeah, time. Time is a good way to focus on your life and you can begin to understand that nobody knows. You know as much as any expert knows. And you should focus and try hard to make your own decisions instead of having other people make them for you.

Yes, it's easier if you let other people make those decisions. But it's so much more fulfilling if you begin making those decisions. And it's great for your life. And I just was I wanted to bring up one other point that I thought was when you talked about our phones, our books, anything that we own being an extension of us. Yeah. Like we, I heard a really great story one time and it made me understand possession a little bit.

So, and the way you can feel stuff through your possession. So imagine closing your eyes and having a cane or a stick, right? And so you're walking around your house, the same way a blind person would take their cane and they feel for stuff, right? So you're moving your cane back and forth and boom, you hit, you hit a book show. You hit a table. You can feel that bookcase through the cane into your hand. So by the second you pick up that cane, it becomes an extension of you.

The second you whack the bookcase, the bookcase becomes an extension of you. That's a great way to feel how you are your objects, you know, and they are you as well. I think it's an interesting way to look at it and it's helped me. So I wanted to share it with you. Thanks. Yeah. It is true. you know one of the things after psychedelics did was at least my parents they started thinking

I was going to go off this world to a monastery and sit as a monk and let go on off everything like I don't want to own this and then suddenly they'll ask why do you still have a cell phone and it was because at that point I still haven't had the solid foundation of the psychedelic experience So it was between two worlds. It was one of the hardest periods because you don't know. That is a set of ways I was taught to live. And this thing detached me from all of those, and showed me those are just barriers.

Nothing more. Whatever you thought as things. And you don't know which is true. Because after all, this is a drug that you have ingested and it's eight hours of course. But there is life that's been happening for 100,000 years by billions of people around the world who kind of, you know, there is this rigid system which is existing, right, the way of life. So it was difficult during those times. I was reading a lot and one of the things I came across was this word renunciation, right?

So back in those days, renunciation was primarily, or maybe it's the idea that ignorant people got, but renunciation people thought that to just give up everything and go. away from the life. But I found this new definition which was quite interesting. Renunciation is that it's not that you don't own things. The things don't own you. As simple as that. You can have everything, be detached with it. Again, the word detachment and stuff, it's pretty much like the emotions we described. We can try to take a jab at it, but would you be able to get what I'm trying to talk about detachment? Because we try to convey things based on experiences and the other person understands based on their experience, right?

So that's why I feel like we never truly communicate with the world. It's more so that we have this points that we get from them. We don't know if it's true or not unless one looks for themselves. That's why it becomes quite an interesting journey. It's so beautiful that every single person has to do their own work, every single work. As you were saying about the thing, it's easier for the other people to make decision for you. It is more fulfilling if you make it. Of course, because it's like just the way you need your own sleep, you need your own food. Like you might have a partner who you can go to movies with, go to restaurants with, but

you're not going to eat for him or her. Neither she or he going to do it for you. You can go together in this journey, take the same car and stuff. Yeah. But that I'm going to eat. can feed you, but I am going to eat for my food. I'm going to go home. I'm going to sleep, right? I need my sleep. So as much as it seems selfish, if one does their own things for themselves, it's beautiful. Yeah. It is the only way to live. You cannot live life for someone else.

Someone else cannot live it for you. Right. That goes without saying it's in the, it's not even lost in translation or something. Like physically we see someone, they're going to do it for themselves. It's not a bad thing. So the whole inner work also, no one can do it for us. We need to do it.

We need to come to our own understanding of what does it mean? I always feel like all the books that were written, they're just their experiences that are being shared. Let's say, Bhagavad Gita, the books like Be Here Now by Ram Dass and Power of Now, I do not think you can understand it. It's quite like, what is this oneness they are talking about?

You know, when you're caught up in the duality, it's like, there is one. No, I am, I am separate. Like, my friend wants to go to this movie, no. I would go to some other movies. So I'm separate, right? We kind of go to that level of thinking. But once we start, let's say, meditation or an intense psychotic trip, and then you read these books and it's like, oh,

that's what you meant. I see, I see. And it's nice and it makes you realize you're not writing to change people or you're not talking to change people. I'm putting it out there just so someone, because of all the people who put stuff out there so when I was able to experience my own

things with this, when I read that, I felt a little comfortable. Oh, it's there. Because unless you're completely understanding that you need to be at peace, when you're in state of turbulence, you need help. And that help is what the book offers.

So you need to do the work and see that as a guide. Okay, it's good now. Right? So it's more like that. I always see like, you know, there's a saying that says, when you're ready, the teacher will show up. And I can't tell you how many times I've just been staring at my bookcase and I'll grab a book and I'll start flipping through it.

And there's the answer. Like some page 87 on a book I've had for three years that I haven't looked at in a little bit, and I'm like, hey, thank you. You know what I mean? And sometimes I look at my bookcase. I'm like, how did I write all these books? You know what I mean? So amazing.

Every book, I'm sorry, please. Go ahead. No, no, no, no. Okay. Just an extension. No, no, no, no. Just an extension of your thing. That's all.

I'm going to let you talk. What you said, when you're ready, the teacher appears, when you're truly ready, the teacher disappears. And that's all there is. Because at that point, you realize. Yes. I am my person. Yeah.

Right? You're not limited to this, but whatever experience you're having trapped in this sense, object perception, you're good. And you're free to do everything. Yeah. Everything. Right? It's beautiful. Yeah.

I look at it too. Like, you know, when you find yourself in tragedy and I got news for everybody. If you haven't been through a horrible tragedy, I'm sorry for you. But guess what? It's coming. So get ready. You know what I mean? But when you find yourself in tragedy, this is the way out of it.

Like understand that the worst tragedy that happens to you is because there's something so beautiful that loves you that knows you can get through it. And when you do get through it, you turn around and you help the next person through it. Like tragedy rips the scales from your eyes so that you can see things clearly, so that you can help other people. And you can see other people getting ready to go through it.

So you can rush over to it and be like, you can become the teacher. And another part about tragedy, and I love what you said about when you're really ready, the teacher disappears. Because when you're, guess what? That's tragedy. That's, you're ready.

Tragedy's the test. This is the finals right here. You're in the worst tragedy of your life. Your teacher stand on the sideline. Like, I believe in you. You can handle this. Yeah. You know, like that.

And that should be such a freeing experience to know that you can. Another way I look at it is like, you've ever seen like a rocket ship take off and there's that scaffolding that holds that rocket ship up, okay? And as soon as it explodes, that scaffolding falls away. And that, I think, is what's happening right now in this world. You look at history, culture, borders, nation states. These are all scaffolding that we no longer need.

And they're falling away. People are freaking out like, ah, it's going to fall on us, man. Hey, I was part of the scaffolding, you know? But that's falling away. And once you begin to accept that, it's like, I think there's something in the Mahavakia's It talks about just like a silkworm spins its web and gets caught in it. So too do humans spin their web and their stories and get caught up in it. If you think about that, we are emerging from this cocoon, right?

We are this new form. But it's dangerous. Like just like in any transition, they call it a miracle of birth because children die. Whenever an organism is emerging into another state, whether it's you awakening, whether it's us as a planet becoming something more, like there is like, There's a certain urgency. There's this idea that we must break through. And we are this new form.

If you think of like a butterfly coming through the cocoon, like, hey, look at my wing. How does this thing work? Whoa, I don't know what I am. I don't eat this food anymore. Like we're emerging as this new form. Individuals and you can see it everywhere. The same way me and Rangar talking emerging as this new, exploring these new ideas, you know, having our parents tell us this is what you should do.

This has been a path that's worked forever. And all of a sudden, we are so lucky to be in this point where we're, We're thinking about making this pivot over here. Like our parents got us to this point. All that stuff, that tragedy was necessary and now we're here. Thanks for that rant a little bit. But that's the way to look at it, I think. I think we're emerging.

100%. It's being able to question what has happened to you, it's a privilege. It's a gift. Yes. Just like you've gotten the gift of life, rebirth is another gift. I'm happy to have been able to gone through whatever I've went through. Because without those, that wouldn't be me questioning it.

I'd just be, you know, the person. It's an automatic thing that's happening. Because when I think back, I feel like I've only lived two, three years. You know what I mean? Yeah. And coming back to your point of tragedy being essential, that's what I think we are trying to convey to, we don't have to wait for the physical tragedy. Psychedelics and their so-called bad trips.

you're not bad yeah sorry for the ruining the surprise you're not bad you know people think bad trips are the reason

they don't want to have Cycdilix no that's the reason you need to have it the fear that's the reason you need to have it that's the reason if you feel

excited about Cyclics don't have it that day you need to be I've had so many trips and I sit in my room you know with my partner after this and like, bad idea.

I don't want to do this. No, I'm nervous. And I feel it's good. I'm going to see something that I don't want to see. And, you know, it's just that minor strep's turbulence. And after which you see, huh. And you breathe it out, it's like, man, what a grand illusion. Can't believe.

You know, sometimes I feel like on cycle, it's like, mental health is a joke. We don't have problems. What are you talking about? Like, we're depressed. No way. Life is so so. You can just laugh it out, everything and you get this sense of humor. You can joke about everything.

Like, you don't need to be as sensitive. Words or what noises. We attach meaning to it. Right. I like the scaffolding thing and the rocket you said. Right. Like Cygdilix just tells you that, bro, do not hold onto the scaffolding. Sit inside the spaceship.

Yeah. Right. Go from the lift-off. That's all. You hold on to the scaffold. you're going to burn to the ground. It's not as simple as that. You're not going to die.

Right. The doors are open. Get in. Everybody. Get in. Everybody. It's the amazing thing. Like, it's not for, um, one of the things I really loved about, uh,

Saip de Lakes or meditation, right? It's, it's so welcoming. It's, it's for everyone. Yeah. Every bit of you, every human has this breathing. Oh, you can sit and meditate. Did you know? You don't need to do.

I go to the Pasna, uh, by Essen Goenka. And in his audio lectures, he says, there is no rights, there is no rituals, there is no, it's not sectarian. It's universal. The technique is always going to be universal. It's for everyone, right? And yeah, I think that's the part. I feel like sometimes when I think about where do I want to serve it's to help people. I'm not going to help anyone with their fear or anything.

They're going to do that for at least five minutes between now and when they dose themselves. I'm just going to say, don't be afraid. Just come on. Just the buildup and so on, right? Because you kind of do that. Everyone is nervous. Like in a stadium, people are playing match, you know? And you want that just to just get started.

After that, you don't care about the noises have blocked out. Right? Same with psychilics. And you are sober mind. You're thinking, you're thinking, thinking, thinking, what if this is right for me? What is wrong? There's so many thoughts.

You just need someone to make that teeny tiny push. I'm not saying, respect to cyclics per se, with respect to anything that fear is stopping us from doing. Fear stops us from living. It's as simple. Yeah. Yeah. You're afraid.

Like fear of death is, that's the thing, right? Yeah. Oh my God. And I'm going to die at some point. So I need to make sure that when I'm dying, I live the happy life. So I need to work for that. So we forget today. We do not know that this minutes away or hours away.

But it's the in ignorance we have this thing right like oh we're just going to live at least I'm just 28 like I'm going to live at least you know based on my bad habits maybe 35 40 you know I'm just ball parting and it gives me five years I don't have to like completely be present right now like I can sleepwalk for some time and then yeah but when you truly have the death fear right it's death awareness I would like to go on to existential therapy by Dr. Adrian Alam after that. But when we truly have that, it doesn't, when we understand, right? Like, you see people coming from near-death experiences, they say, I felt a piece of calm, right? It's only the thinking mind that is fearful. Because the thinking mind will die.

That's the problem. But in actual reality, if we are not our thinking mind, that is one beyond that, which is the awareness. It's not afraid of death. That is merely a transition. Yeah. It's just a transition, right? Our thinking mind, our thinking mind can't handle the thought it's going to die.

I like that. So let me ask you this one right here. So it seems to me that right now in the world of psychedelics, there are some issues. And a couple of the ones that I see are, first off, psychedelics can help, I think, almost everybody. There might be some people that have like schizophrenia or people whose life's history maybe make them not somewhat. Maybe people could have a psychotic break or people that aren't ready to be shown this thing.

Sometimes the light will burn their eyes, you know, even though we may be of the idea that everyone should do it. So in the world of psychedelics, you have people that are on meds right now and you have, like, let's just say, psilocybin is huge right now. People are doing all kinds of assisted therapy with PTSD, and it's helping all kinds of mental patients. And so where do we draw the line for people that need prescriptions and people that don't? If you look at the way it was done in the past, or at least some of the stuff I've read, people would go to a shaman or a friend or a trainer or a therapist, call it whatever term you want. Does that person sit with them and show them the trip once or twice and then give them, show them the path and then allow them to go on it.

Or, you know, if you look at some of the South American tribes, the shaman would take the mushrooms and then he would solve their problem for them. So that's a different way. And then a third way is, you know, we put people in the hospital and then give them the psychedelics and then just take notes into a survey. There's so many different methods of using psychedelics to help people. And I think that some of those things are at the forefront of the conversation. right now with prescriptions, treatments.

So what say you on the different methods of treating people with psychedelics? It's a great question. Thank you. At the end of the day, we kind of, the individual will come to a point, right? They decide I want to go get prescription with this set of antidepressants or, you know, this help or a particular form of therapy and so on. You know, we reach a point, right? And in that point, it is one more of the option. Cycbilics is an option, right? That's the freedom of choice. Everything needs to be on the table. I truly believe, yeah, it cannot be set for all, but for most people, psychbilics are going to work.

And it comes down to the question to the individual, do I need to be dependent on something every single day for years and years, where it is just treating my symptoms or do I want to cure? One of the things we need to really ask is, do I just want to put a band-aid and keep running or do I need to sit? as I said the knife in our attacks like take it out heal it you cannot just keep running by you know spraying some steroid which at that point are taking shots of adrenaline you feel good of course you're going to feel good your body is designed to take adrenaline and you're going to get into the pumped up mode you're not going to feel pain it's good same comes to the mental health I haven't had experience with prescription drugs,

but I've been watching how to change your mind and there are people who say they've been on antidepressants and they say it just makes them survive, right? And it dulls the life. There is no feeling of aliveness. And this person who took MDMA, she was describing how it was pain, I felt pain, but I was able to feel it.

I was able to experience it, right? That's all, it all comes down to. Pain is not a bad thing or pleasure is not a good thing. It doesn't have to be, you know. Even though it might think like we need to choose pleasure over pain. I'm sorry. Oh, that's okay. Sorry about that.

We kind of get over that part and realize none of those are good or bad. Everything is needed at some point, you know? Pain is a great thing. Pain is the language with which the body communicates to us. Without pain, we'd be dead like in three days. Right? Yeah. It's just a form of language.

There is nothing to be avoidant about, you know what I mean? Yeah. Antidepressants or whatever drugs, if they dull our life, if they dull our sensitivity, the question always comes. To what point do I want to do? What is my life being lived this way? So what stops me from like just ending it versus living dull? Am I just living it for a record?

Like is someone going to say this person, man, amazing. You got depression at 25. You made it to 50. Good. You're going to give him a gold medal. No, it doesn't matter if you're going to live 10 minutes of fully present versus 60 years of complete sleepwalking. The question is that, how much alive do I want to feel?

how much do I want to experience life? So I feel in that sense, psychedelics gives you integration word apart, at least at that point you get the sense where there is more to life than what I thought. That freeingness, that being able to breathe, right? And there are different methods, as you said. Atome trips are going to shamans. And I've heard like there are a lot of people who are trying to do. it and people who are having prescription ducts and you know they talk online asking other people like

how much do I need to wean off on the prescription drugs before I take Iowa stuff because they're going to interact and stuff right yeah so it's it's amazing there is a beautiful network that is helping people trying to tell them maybe this is what you need to do maybe if you have a predisposition for schizophrenia maybe you shouldn't do this right and it's like this I'm short right if I if I want to play a game which is completely made for only tall people, I just can't. Right? It's just, it's what it is. You accept it. And likewise for some people, if you're able to do tests and find out they have the gene for schizophrenia and stuff, yeah, it might be a little unlucky, but there are tons of other ways. Meditation is

what I got drove to after psychedelics and I can watch. You can say psychedelics is not for everyone. I agree with you, but meditation is for everyone. That isn't any person you can show me and say, but he can't meditate. Yeah, first, you don't want to meditate. Right. I find it really hard. Having been to courses, I try to sit and, you know, you always feel this idea like, life is good. Why do I need to sit?

You know, and then my points of frustration with respect to, like, waiting in the traffic or getting pissed off with the colleague or something. I'm like, yep, this is why. I know that is a better reaction. There is always a better reaction that can be given. I would say better response than the immediate reaction we give to situations. So different methods being there, I genuinely feel like we are working with the right set of things. Of course, with venturing into the unknown, there are going to be a lot of questions.

There are going to be a lot of debates. And we need people being able to be honest. honest and convey whatever they mean. For example, I have this idea if you can give Cyclics to more people. The voice needs to go out there. And the voice that says, no, it's not for everyone. This fight between these two voices is going to lead to a harmonious thing. Right.

You cannot have a one-sided game. Like, this is how it's going to be. It's established. No, nothing is established. And one more beautiful thing about I feel like Cyclics is that unlike other things, you know, how doctors. prescribe antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications, they don't take it, they just prescribe it.

I do not believe you can just give someone psychics. You need to take it to understand what's happening. And that alone makes it amazing. When I think about it, you know, if someone didn't take psychilics, they wouldn't appreciate it. You know, you can read lots of texts about so many things. Like, you talk about oneness. Like, it all feels nice to talk about.

But the experience is like what will, live with us. It is something we can share. Like, it's shared experience and it's shared sacrifice all in the same setting. Like, I know what it's like to be curled up in the chair, sweating, like, duh, I'm such a retard, you know. Yeah. You know, like, and then one moment and then being like, oh, my God, I'm so beautiful.

Like, yes, that's what I should be doing, you know? Like, yeah. And I, this is, this is not. the best way to do it, but I heard a funny quote from Terrence McKenna, and he used to go and give speeches about, you know, mushrooms and psilocybin. And he had a really funny quote that said, you know, I'm so tired of everybody just doing these little baby doses. Like he goes, he goes, my, my idea of psychedelics is if you take an amount and you don't think you're going to die, then you haven't taken enough. And that changes for everybody. I know people that can eat an

eight and just have this full out of body experience, mind expanding. I'm changing course of my life. And I know guys that can eat eight grams and be like, ah, you know, it didn't really hit me the way I thought it would, you know. And so depending, I think you get the trip you need at that time. And maybe that, I really think there's something to be said about the language. Like when you think about the term getting high, okay, think about being high. When you're high, you can look down and see everything clearly.

If you're in a battle, you want to get the high ground. You know, this idea that when you get high, like, it's all in the language, man. Like, when you get high, you can see better. But you can't stay high all the time because you've got to come back down to the world and interact and change and do the work. Yeah, that's what the, like here does again. It's a trip. We're getting high. Like, if you just listen to the language, you can understand more about what's happening to.

You are going to go on a little trip over here. I'm going to take you a little mind vacation. You get to see yourself. What a treat to see yourself the way other people see you. Like think about that for a minute. You have the ability to see yourself the way other people see you. You know how much work you can get done if you can see yourself that way? And then you start realizing it's not just me seeing myself.

It's me seeing myself through everybody. Everybody's me. You know, you start realizing the problems people have are your problems. You see it in yourself. And the beauty of it is when you can start seeing that kind of stuff, when you can go, oh man, this person is, this person looks like they're having some relationship problems. That's because you've had relationship problems and you can recognize it. You can't see something in somebody unless you recognize it. And that means you've had to go through it.

So it gets us kind of back to tragedy and language that people are giving us information through social cues, eye contact, skin contact. Like you said, all the information is there. And I do think the psychedelics experience kind of stays with you a little bit. So even, even when you're done tripping, part of this new way you process information stays with you. And you get to keep a little bit more every time. Oh, yeah. And it's mind-blowing to me. And I, I,