TrueLife - Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester - The Psychedelic Movement & Issues of Power

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://www.revdrjessicarochester.com/Rev. Dr. Jessica Rochester is the Madrinha and President of Céu do Montréal, a Santo Daime (Ayahuasca) Church she founded in 1997 in Montréal, Canada.She is a transpersonal counselor, she trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Assagioli and trained with Dr. Stanislav Grof.She worked with Health Canada from 2000 until 2017 to achieve an Section 56 Exemption to import and serve the Santo DaimeSacrament (Ayahuasca).She is an ordained Interfaith Minister with a Doctorate in Divinity.From 1986 to 2018 she has been a workshop leader, teacher, and in private practice.She is the author of Ayahuasca Awakening A Guide to Self-Discovery, Self-Mastery and Self-Care, Volume One and Two.She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, health and well-being and personal transformation One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Heiress through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining and the birds are singing, and I got a wonderful show for you today. the one and only Reverend Dr. Jessica Rochester. She is an ordained interfaith minister with a doctorate in divinity, a trans-personal educator who trained in the work of Dr. Roberto Asagioli

and trained with Dr. Stanislav Graf from 1986 to 2018. She's been a workshop leader, a teacher, and in private practice. She continues to lecture on consciousness, non-ordinary states of consciousness, self-discovery, spiritual development, and personal transformation. She is the matrina and president. of the Sioux de Montreal, a Santo Dime church she founded in 1997 in Montreal, Canada. From 2001 to 2017, she worked with Health Canada to achieve the recognition of the Santo Dami as a legitimate religion and the right to import the Santo Dami sacrament for ritual use.

In June 2017, this mission was accomplished and Sue to Montreal received an exemption to import and serve the Santo Diamy sacrament. She's on a mission to inspire and empower those who, seek the adventure of self-discovery, those who hope to awaken consciousness to rediscover authenticity, to find meaning in everyday life, and cultivate deep connections with oneself, with others, and with nature. Self-mastery is a psychospiritual journey of self-realization that requires good maps to guide the way and courage, faith, and willpower to navigate life's various challenges.

It is possible to achieve and maintain greater health and well-being on all levels, physical, mental, emotional, creative, and spiritual by working with the principles of self-care, self-awareness, self-awareness, self-love, self-respect, and self-responsibility. Her work is dedicated to providing the maps and tools to facilitate personal growth and transformation, awakening to the knowledge of our own true self, and we can choose to live with consciousness, wisdom, and kindness. And for those watching, you can see what her book looks like here is the two-volume set, ayahuasca awakenings i highly recommend everybody check it out dr jessica thank you so much for being

here today i hope the world is treating you well well thank you so much it was that was so amusing because here you are giving this you know like amazing introduction i'm watching your two cats have a battle and a background and it's like well that's perfect for you know as one was created dominate the other it's like the perfect example of life you know dominate resist dominate and that's in part what we're going to be talking about today thank you as always for giving me this opportunity to sit with you and have these discussions which are so much fun and hopefully you know bring interest to other people and spark other conversations and further the discussion about these important issues that do need to be talked

about and with the understanding that there will be different viewpoints and that there needs be space for different viewpoints and that no one person holds a truth. We're actually lucky if we hold a small piece of the puzzle, okay? And if we can find where it fits, then we will have done amazing. Okay? So avoid people who think they have the whole picture because there is no such thing. And on that note, what we're going to do is a quick little resume of some of the things we'll be talking about this last few months to help put into perspective the conversation we're going to have today. Is that good? That sounds fantastic.

Okay, so we've been talking about, you know, a lot of what I cover in my books. And for those of you who are not familiar with this work, then I just really encourage you to take a look at them. And given the advances in the field of understanding about antigenes and psychedelics, I was compelled to write these books based on 40 years of working in private practice and the workshops and the, you know, all the work that I've done. And then 27 years of being the madrina of soda material and drinking and serving my 14 year apprenticeship in that field. And there's some things that I noticed. And there's just some things that I learned.

And all I'm really doing is passing on what I found helpful, what others found helpful. and what hopefully people in the future will find helpful and will help them ask more questions and do more self-discovery. And so one of the key pieces of this is we learn about who am I, why am I here and what is my life about and what is this reality

and where was I before I came here and where do I go after I leave here and all those existential questions that everyone at one point in their life is going to ask themselves, right? No matter culture, creed, religion, path, whatever it is,

these are universal questions that we are all going to ask ourselves. And the answer lies within. You know, we can share what we've found, we can share our experiences, but in the end, the bottom line is each person must find that deep inside of themselves. And all we can do as

facilitators, guides, helpers, therapists, practitioners, researchers, academics, in all the different fields that we're working, all we can do is provide the opportunity, the information, the research, and or the heritage, or the history of the practices. And then we're just kind of setting the stage. It's kind of like a garden, whereby if you plant a garden and you buy a healthy plant, okay, and you give it the right soil, the right water, and the right sunlight, it'll grow. I mean, there has to be something that it doesn't, you know, and there has to be something that interferes with the natural process of life moving towards itself, life recreating itself.

This is a universal force that exists in everything. You know, everything that is in physical matter reality is all about recreating itself, whether it's grass or dolphins or eagles or humans or something. Okay, the next generation, the next season is what the thrust is always towards. And so if we understand that that's part of our own soul, our soul is looking to self-discover and grow and hopefully self-mastered. And at the core of that is going to be our will. We talked a while ago about the will and willpower and how it can be influenced when we're really young. and we can get it out of balance and we can become too rebellious or it can become too pleasing.

And we can acquiesce to everything and everyone around us and that makes us a pleaser or codependent. Or we can go through life rebelling against everything and nobody tells me what to do. You know, I'm going to do it my way. And we could see all of this in society and in our culture and everything. It's everywhere around us, you know. and it's not restricted to any particular percentage of the population by any means, okay? And no one should take ownership of only their culture has that because none, no, no, it's human, right? And then you have that, what I was laughing at with your cats, you know, the one was casually sitting there,

the other one went up and went black. Okay, and now this is normal in cats. They're just reminding each other who's on top today. Right. And yet we have this incentive us. We have this kind of willpower to assert ourselves in certain situations. And how do we use that willpower to bring ourselves forward in life to have the discipline that we need and to use this powerful willpower of energetic force that I believe lives in their chakra, that is part of our sense of responsibility and our sense of self and who we are in the world.

Okay, when your cat was busy dominating, that cat was just saying, he has my favorite place and get out of it. Okay, okay, the cat was sending a whole lot of messages about who I am, okay? Who I am in the world, who I am in this family, who I am in this place, okay? And that's a part what we're going to be talking about today is how does that sense of self, sense of responsibility and the power of the will, how do we keep that imbalance? How do we keep it healthy? And what happens when it's not imbalance and not healthy? And what's happening when it is, I love Scott Peck, the American psychiatrist. You wrote a book called The Road, The Road, Last Travel.

I'm not so keen on his other word, but I think most. of the stuff that's in that book is certain worth reading and and he talks about he asks himself the question in one of his other books what is evil you know he's reflecting on what is evil and he comes down to the down to the definition that evil is willful ignorance do you like that one george yeah willful ignorance in other words i am choosing to be ignorant about that it's not unknowing, I don't know, I don't know, okay, which we can all be forgiven for, I don't know, I don't know, okay? As far as willful ignorance goes, it's when you throw the trash into the compost bin. It's when you throw the recycling, littering it in the park.

That's willful of us. You know you should just hang on to it until you get to recycling deposit thing, or take it home for the only recycling deposit. You know that if you throw your junk in your trash and you're recycling and the compost bin, that that renders that whole bin not compostable, right? Yeah. But hey, who cares? Because it was more convenient to me. Okay.

So that's the first thing we're looking at is what happens when power, will, responsibility, when something happens there. And is it a choice? is it willful is it yeah I can't know better I kind of know what I'm doing but I'm doing it anyway

because talk to me what makes sense to it I agree I agree you know I'm getting a little bit of feedback on your mind

can you can you as I speak to you I can hear myself through your mic that's a bit of a okay that sounds better thank you I do I agree

that willful ignorance is Maybe it's a manifestation of the ego because you know you're doing something wrong, but there's something behind it. It's almost like you're trying to get one up on the world by doing it. Like, I'm going to do this and I know it's wrong, but I'm going to do it anyway, and you come up with this list of reasons why you rationalize it's okay. And I think I've done it plenty of times. I don't, looking back on it, I'm not proud of that. But I think being aware of it, maybe this takes us back to self-awareness is what helps give you the answer.

Yes, that's why, you know, self-care is. self-awareness first then self-love and all the self-respect and self-responsibility. Awareness, awareness, awareness, I'm aware that I'm doing this. Okay? And you've said it very nicely, I'm aware that I'm doing this and this willful of the utmost. I'm aware of doing this and I don't care. I'm aware of doing this and there will be consequences.

But if they're not directly in this moment to me, why do I care? and if I can get away with it ha ha ha ha well hello there's the rest of us those consequences can shift on down to the rest of us so whether it is

at a level of you know let's take it on a high up level and bring it all back down to individual people but maybe it's on the level of governments where they kind of know it's like look at the tobacco company they need for jacket that cancer and health problems were as a direct result of their product. How many decades did they fudge the information and fiddle with the research and buy off and pay off and vary,

God knows how many papers and people even in an attempt, a willfully ignorant attempt to get the bottom line on their product, which is profits, right? So, you know, where does that take us to? Yes. I'd say more than a cousin, okay? I'd say they're twins. Yes. So out of willful ignorance, what we're seeing is, you know,

so again, it can happen on a government level. We can't say that governments were ignorant of what's happening in pharmaceutical companies and in other industries. They know, and it's only when people go with placards or start writing letters or go and nag their member of parliament to do something about it, that all of a sudden the government says, oh, well, yes, okay, well, I guess we better do something with that, okay? And only when it reaches a certain level of kind of public complaint or concern. And so we can look around and see that this is something that is simply part of human existence and that it is can. kept in place with complicacy. When people are compliant with and agreeable to it, for whatever reason, whether we call

that codependency, whether we call that wanting to keep my paycheck, or whatever we're going to call it, whatever name it falls under, we just have to acknowledge that it exists. It has consequences for everybody. and then what do we do about it on an individual level? You know, that's the piece. Let's bring it on back down now. As an individual, what do we do? Do we speak up?

Do we write about it? Do we get lectures on it? Do we write to our member of parliament? Do we try and get on the board of our condo association or our co-op or our union or whatever it is and try and bring forward what we're seeing that needs to be addressed? And do we do it in a way that? that encapsulates the, is it true, is it necessary? And is it kind because we're doing it in a kind in a respectful way?

And sometimes that kind part can get really stretched out of shape because trying to keep things true and necessary, somehow you just have to start looking like unkind, because the only way you're going to get it through is with a sharp point. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, excellent point there, George, entitlement. Okay, or who was it?

That's Arvin, Ava, yeah? Okay, so Ava, thank you. Excellent point. Thank you for posting it, George. So the twins of entitlement will pull ignorance. And in the reality of it now, how can we bring these issues into the conversation that's been going circling around,

in my world, in my field for decades. The great gift of training was Dan Groff, and so I was actually probably for one of the first times working in an organization that was clean. There were no ethical mishaps. There was no shady business. There was no covering up somebody's alcoholism or sexual adventures or, you know.

A great read. everybody listening would be Jack Cornfields after the exceive laundry in which he addresses at the time. So it's a book that was written around the year 2000, more or less than us. But a book that was addressing the ethical challenges that were showing up out of East Meets West. Okay. And he realized that a few things were happening, that were causing these kind of cracks in in the facade of all as well in the spiritual realms and and the you know you know the emperor has no clothes was becoming more and more obvious and that there were severe ethical problems that were hiding behind you know many layers of clouds and obscurity and codependency and enabling and entitlement and entitlement and entitlement. and looking good and pressure management.

There was just layers of stuff that was happening. How to address it? How to address it so that good comes from it? Not just condemnation and let's draw bombs, but how to address these difficult situations so that good comes from it. You know, and this is a very, you know, I am not indigenous and make no claims to be so,

but I am blessed to have indigenous friends and colleagues and who throughout all of the years, who kindly shared some of their wisdom with me, for which I feel honored and blessed. And some of the deep teachings about how to manage difficult things is the tribe sits down, and everyone gets a chance to talk about how that difficult dream is affecting them.

And the tribe holds people accountable. It's not just the president of the organization. It's not just the prime minister of the, you know, the Queen of England. Oh, God bless her, she's not here anymore. But anyway, you know what I'm saying? You don't just look to the head of state and blame them. Because, frankly, they may not even know about it because it was being hidden layers and layers and layers underneath them.

And so high office demands that you take responsibility. and so people often have to take responsibility for things they knew nothing about. But more often than not, when you come to and so we're going to bring it on down now into spiritual organizations and what's happening within the agents and psychedelics and what's happening in all of the centers and retreats and things that are happening, you know, and centers and experience organized events that are done. being created in which people are participating and then we're reading about all of these problems. And I want to give a shout out to Joel Evans, who, you know, God bless him, he keeps doing research on the dark side of what's going on and the problems that are happening and

trying to put a balanced perspective on the reality of, hey guys, we have to pay attention, that not everything is a magical ride on the merit fuel around here that certain things need to be paid attention to, and then that asks a lot of questions, and then those questions should be answered. And so, you know, recently the conversation has been gearing to, you know, it kind of leads back to that paper we published in April 2021, which I keep a perfect, referring to in the Canadian Journal of Psychology, which was entagents and psychedelics in Canada proposal for a new paradigm. We tried to address the problems that we were seeing that I was seeing for

decades and that we were seeing just on a larger venue, then you know, in a larger stage and bigger numbers, and try to address what are the needs for education, what are the needs for credentialing, who gets credential, is there a grandfathering for people, people who have been apprenticed in heritage traditions. What does not look like? People who are already working in professions,

who already have a code of ethics, who have already apprenticed and trained in their field. What additionally do they need to be able to work with these non-ordinary states of consciousness and to work with MPHNs and or psychedelics in a way that is responsible and accountable and ethical and that will create the best opportunity. for good results. And so those are the questions. We offer some, you know, we offer some suggestions as to what can be done.

I'm really pleased to announce that the, you know, the psychedelic program, master's level, graduate level program, University of Ottawa's gotten all the green lights. So that should be launched for early next year and watched that since it was just a little thought in Professor Anfelao's mind and Professor Monica Williams and it's been a real joy to work with them and see these programs develop and, you know, blessed to be an advisor to the program and fingers crossed that everything continues to unfold

as serious people take these things seriously. And it's just simply a question of looking at it all. And then, of course, as we're looking at it, What are we seeing that's kind of what are we going to call it the dark side or the shadow? How are we going to describe it? Human, you know, human longings, human desires. So what are we seeing? We see that some people are grasping hold of the field, psychedelics, let's say,

and they're grasping hold of it for money. Okay, so now we're going to have time to do with the power stuff, which I promise we do. Okay. Okay, so money, you know, here again, we're back to Jack Cornfield and it's the usual suspects. You know, it's money, it's sex, it's power, or it's substances. People have issues with substances. And so those are the usual suspects when there's problems. And so we all need to sit back and say, okay, what are my motivations for doing this?

I'm just jumping on the bandwagon because I see, hey, there's this opportunity to open up, fill in the blank, Pateman Clinic, silvicin, therapy, the clinic, you know, fill in the blank,

whatever it is, ayahuasca, hybrid, chamanic, center, there's this opportunity and I'm going to have power and I'm going to have money

and I'm going to have prestige and I'm going to take it, fill in the blank. What are these longings that people are looking for? Why are they doing that? How different is that

from a calling or a mission? I think it speaks to someone's lack of, maybe it's lack of lineage. Maybe it's lack of thoroughly understanding. And you had said something in a previous interview and in writings that healing happens inside the body. No one is the medicine. No one is the healer. And I think that that is where the absence of recognition about the medicine comes in. A lot of people don't know that.

And they find themselves face to face with this incredible heightened state of awareness where things are happening. And they don't understand it. So they confuse themselves with the medicine. And with that comes power. With that comes money. With that comes this odd understanding of what's happening. Yes. Let's break that.

That's good, George. Let's break that down a little bit more into more definable pieces. Okay. So yes, actually on the LinkedIn stream, I started off rather innocently by asking people, please don't call yourself a healer because, you know, I didn't, I don't even think I put it because I think, you know, could everyone please stop calling yourself healers? And then some people wrote in and said, well, okay, what do you mean? Can you write about this? And can you say more or something? And I said, okay, so I wrote a post, which kind of, I guess, in this world, you say it went viral because I've never had so many reposts. I've never had some. so many impressions. I mean, I'm used to looking at a modest response on things that I were posts. This is still going, you know. And so that awoke more questions. So I said, okay, I'll do another post. Okay. So that one's going in the direction that it's going in because it seems

like there's maybe a lot of people who are asking the same questions. Like, you know, shout at Susan Gunner, who wrote on one of those posts and she says, why is this happening? Can you answer? Can you please answer why is this happening? So I began and I said, okay, the first thing in, and I pointed to Pahlia Taylor's work, which is wonderful, the ethics of caring. And she talks about therapist, facilitator, home abilities. We all have them. And she used the chakra system to work with it, which simplifies it so beautifully. She has a wonderful chart, each of the chakras and our personal fears and our desires and longings and how we have to address them.

okay and and this is really important because we all have these until we recognize that we have unfulfilled needs or unfulfilled longings and desires they are going to be getting their little hands on the steering wheel of our life and they will be meeting your decisions for us because whatever is conscious is conscious and whatever we're actively aware of and working on that's grand but then we need to work in our unconscious to bring to the surface this again is self-awareness. Why am I making this decision? Why am I behaving on this?

Why am I doing this? Why am I accepting this person's higher self-projection on me the greatest thing in the entire world? Excuse me, with my pedestal of my little throne. And I love what Stan Groff said. He used to say, you know, don't project your higher self on me because I accept it. Then I have to accept the lower self-projecture.

and that's not so interesting. You know, so we can't accept one without accepting the other way. You know, that's how that one goes. So why are people calling themselves newness? And why are people seeking this power? And what is happening?

And this is a deep question. Okay? So I began to answer it, you know, using kind of unfulfilled needs and longings and personal desires. and that's a really important part of it. People who feel called to serve and they want to help and they're curious and they want to know and they want to learn,

but they just do a skipover of the education and the credentialing part of it, okay? Or the true apprenticeship, okay? If they don't want to go and get an A something or other, okay, or a PhD something or other, a D.D.O.E.O., whatever it is that they're, you know, they don't want to go. want to do that, that's okay, but then they do need to do a very serious apprenticeship.

You know, because if you want to be a medical doctor, you actually have to go to medical school and get a degree and do your internship and your residency and your specialties. And I'm horrified to find out now that I think they also have to do at MSC, a master's in science. I remind an MD, now you also have to have a master's in science. So, you know, this is a huge commitment. And so we have people who can get the call on the mission and then they do the work. Young indigenous men was speaking with him recently, and he was talking about the long apprenticeship in the indigenous,

some of their rituals. He was talking about it. I think it was the Sun Moon Dance and the Sweat Lodges, and how long it takes when you have to ask to learn the songs in the sweatwomen. and then once you got permission to learn them, then one of the elders will slowly maybe give you permission to start singing them. It's a long, long process of apprenticeship.

I have to learn about every part of it and why it's done and what the meaning is and how to be and how to recognize when people need and when they need to open the door and get some order, when they need to step out and take a drink of water, when they need to for their well-being and the elder and know this, and because they've been doing it for so many years

and because they learn from the elders, and all of this ancestral wisdom is passed on. Okay? This kind of work is not like buying a cookbook and following the recipe. It's not. You can read as many books as you want. There are many lectures,

listen to as many podcasts, as you want. They will be informative. They will be helpful. You will learn things. In working in non-ordinary states of consciousness, this would be the equivalent of reading about water and then assuming that you're a master school. When you haven't learned how this went yet, you haven't even been in the water. So, entitlement. One of our listeners popped that lovely statement up, which is, is it goes to entitlement. Well, yes, because, you know, Here's the next step is in our culture, in the Western civilization, in particularly

in North American culture, sad to say, there is this, I can do anything and be everything. And if you look back, when did that come into consciousness? It certainly wasn't the way I was raised. I was raised that you can aim for things. You can work towards things. But it will take effort and responsibility and discipline. and if you work hard and put your good effort into it, then you know, you will have better consequences

than if you didn't put your good effort into it. I was never told, and I never told my children growing up. You can be anything you want, okay, because that's not true. You know, my daughter wanted to join the Starfleet Academy, which doesn't exist. It's a Star Trek Academy that exists only in films and books, okay? So it doesn't matter if you want to fly the SS Enterprise or whatever it's called. You're not going to be doing that.

So for me, it's in the stat, I call it new age illusion, fantasy, of I can do anything and I can be everything, rather than I can kick my strengths and I can look at what my strengths are and I can do my best and I can choose a goal and I can work towards it and I can give it on the absolute best. can go to university. Yay, I got in because I studied hard and I got the marks. Okay? So I go to university and I work my butt off there and I get a part-time job, whatever it is at Starbucks or something, okay, to help pay the rent,

to get my degree to go forward, okay? And then you get your degree and then you hang out your shingle and you joined your organization and you're keeping up your, you know, your accumulating credits that you credits and you're doing all of the things that you know you need to do to establish yourself rooted and grounded in this reality. And if you want to learn things that are contemporary and complementary, which is what I had to do is learn a lot of things on the side of academia because they weren't being taught at the time. Hey, I understand that, but, you know, that's like your extra courses that you take, but you still have to get your groundedness in

this reality. And there's only a few ways to do that. So where does this idea come from, George? Can you help me understand where you can do anything and you can call yourself anything? Because I don't understand it, you know? Is it grounded in reality? I think it's grounded in unrealistic expectations and a juvenile understanding of love. I can speak to that because I know when I was brought up, I was told that. Like, you can do anything you want, George, the world you're always to. And in some ways, it comes from a profound love that, like, your parents have to. They want you to be able to do that.

And in doing that, they feel as if they're not putting limits on you. But that's the wrong way to think about it. And I didn't realize this until I was older. It's not so much that unrealistic expectations are a horrible thing. It's just that they give the person an unrealistic expectation of their life, which leads them into longing, which leads them down this road. There's something wrong with me because I can no long. Why can't I do this thing? There's something wrong with me.

And in some way it fosters this problem that you're giving a child like a weird phobia in a weird sort of way. That's where it comes from, I think. I'm so glad to hear you say this. Thank you so much for sharing from your own personal life. It's hard. This is the fruit of the tree that got planted. These are the consequences. There's a vast difference between saying, you know what?

The world's a buffet. And you can get out there and do your best and try your hardest and put your heart into it and find out what you want to do. What has heart and meaning for you. Like I love Joseph Campbell's quote about. you know, people who work their entire life to go up the ladder only to find that it's against the wrong wall. Yeah.

Yeah. And so that's as hard, you know, people who are driven up that ladder. You have to be a lawyer and accountant, the doctor, da, da, da, da, da, and you have to, okay, that kind of pushing to succeed only in a certain realm has, you know, the same kind of consequences that what you were told, hey, you can do anything you want. You just go out there and kind of take it, you know. And instead of me, you know, and then that leaves you thinking, oh, gosh, there's all of this.

And nobody's guiding me and nobody's helping me. And, you know, I'm failing because I haven't accomplished this wonderful, marvelous thing. So there's something wrong with me. So that's called the too loose. The other one is too tight. to Titus is this really strict parenting that pushes you in a certain direction that you have to do this and you must do that. Okay.

And to Luce is, hey, the world's just do what you want and you're fabulous and you're special and you're wonderful. And well, yes, you are special and wonderful to them. But they forgot to put that disclaimer on it. Like, I love you and I think you're special, sweetheart. The world's a bit of a tricky, difficult place. So you need to learn some good skills and tools, and you've got to sharpen up your own strengths. And, you know, that's preparing.

That's preparing, you know, people for youngsters for life. And so that's what was the older kind of heritage way of raising children, is the elders, you know, would look at the young children and that one's going to be a carver, and that one's so musical. It's clear they're going to be leading the songs, okay, and this one can't get, his bow and arrow sharp enough

and get out after the warriors and the hunters, and they'd look at the children. They'd see the natural abilities that each child would have, and they would try to encourage them, not squeeze or press them or force them, but try and encourage them to go in that direction and give them the opportunity to do so.

At the same time, teaching them, yeah, you may like only doing the carving. You have to learn to fish and clean up the dishes at the same time. So it was very kind of grounded in everyday reality. Okay. And so this too loose, too tight thing, you know, Genghury Buddhist, finding the middle balanced way. And now how is this?

So insights, urgency towards rushing towards profits, Yes. So we mentioned that, you know, profit is one of the, you know, what language shall we use here? What of the challenges on the path? Okay, let's just put it this way. What are the ethical challenges on the path for people who really and truly feel called to work with end upheogens and psychedelics? So the challenges on the path are seeking inside of ourselves. Is this the calling? Is this to a question? Is to a I really feel called to do this? And how can I do this in a way that is accountable and ethical? How can I do this in a way that will be for the higher good? Why is my motive for getting involved in this movement?

You know? I said I'm really fascinated in A, the research in non-artarer states of consciousness, that I'm really curious about spirituality and want to explore that, that, you know, that I love working with people and I'm fascinated to help them self-discover. Those are all pretty good reasons, you know, in my world. And then you need to look at, do I have the training and the credentialing to be able to do this? And then the so key that is so overlooked by so many people. Do I have the support system and the peer review?

Do I have a group of peers who are supporting and or can, counseling? Do I have like shaman or medicine men or woman in a tribe, the elders of the tribe and the tribe keep them accountable? Again, Jack Cornfield writes about this, that the main problem that happened ethically is that the kind of Western civilization flux, looms, Rimbusha's, great teachers out of their environment and drops them into a completely different culture that has completely different norms and standards. And then they are not being held by accountable by their original community. And therefore, their personal vulnerabilities can lead them to either cooperate with the codependency that's going on around them and what's being thrown at them or for their own vulnerabilities to start manifesting the misuse of power or ethical issues. problems. So taking people out of their community and then putting them on a pedestal, this happened, we can see this happened over and over and over again with spiritual teachers,

with shaman, with medicine men, you know, the list is across the board. Doesn't matter what community they come from, what spiritual tradition they're practicing. Once we take them out of their element, it's much harder for them to stay. rooted in their principles and their accountability. And so that just has to be looked at and addressed. And that conversation has been around for 20, 30 years, if not longer. And so where's that level of accountability for the people who are just sort of, you know, let's come bring it now to power, people who are calling, you know, the self-in-point appointed.

I'm preparing another pose for those of you who are asking, well, what about the people where it's not so nice and kind and it's just kind of unfulfilled spiritual longings and stuff like that? What about, you know, the ones who are actively squeezing people for money? Did you read that one about, I can't remember where I saw it, but that, you know, somebody wrote and said, it might have been one of Joel Evans, I don't know, but where somebody wrote and said, is it normal for the shaman to ask you for your debit card and your PIN number when you're in the, when you're in the Voloka and you're under the influence in case he needs to get something for you?

It's like, oh, oh, oh no, please. You know, enough said. We're reading about all kinds of. kinds of things that are happening. And why in part they're happening is because there's a huge disparity of affluence, huge disparity between people who are quite happy to flame $1,000 at a one-week retreat or $2,000 at a one-week retreat. And the people who are helping out and working in these retreats who may be having very,

very simple lifestyles. And so that's where personal vulnerabilities being vulnerable because of poverty or because of lack of, and then it's easy for that door to open to all kinds of ethical misconduct. So that is a piece that just has to look at so that it get managed in a way that is transparent and healthy for everyone. People who are going down to Brazil, Peru, Colombia, wherever you're going, Mexico, Costa Rica, all these different places where they're having these retreats. Have you assured yourself of the accountability and how the money is being distributed?

Who's receiving the money that you're giving for this retreat? How is it being distributed? Is it equitable to the people who are actually going in the forest and gathering the plants? Is it equitable for the people who are working there and living there? How is that money being distributed? It has to just be transparent, right? So that's one of the problems is money.

Money is always a problem with humans. Because of the more issue, you know what I mean, right? More money you've got, then the more power you have, the more things. The more this, you have more that. So it's just called more. Money shouldn't be called money. It should be called more. Didn't Robin Williams say that about cocaine once?

I think so. Yeah. It equally applies to money. Now, what about the other things that are happening? Why are people who have limited experience in helping people who have no training or credentialing in working with people so they're not like a medical doctor, a psychologist, a social worker, a minister in whatever tradition? And so they don't have that training to actually work with people so they don't have a code of ethics or they haven't been through their training, apprenticeship, and education to understand healthy boundaries, clear communications, transparency around things like boundaries, around money and around sex and around substances and all those things that absolutely have to discuss. And then our own personal vulnerabilities.

You know, transference and counter transference are realities. We exist everywhere. You can walk in the bank. And in a nanosecond, you can be in countertransference with a dollar. It's everywhere all the time. All we can do is be aware of it. And so what's happening here? Why are people going and having some experiences?

Usually by themselves, often by themselves, and then calling themselves healers or shamans. Do you want to? Are you ready for me to start putting us some thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I have speculations, but I don't know the answer. Well, I think that I think people are absent of spirituality, especially in the Western world. They've been separated from any sort of higher power. They've been separated from themselves.

They've been separated from their personal power. We live in the Western world. We've farmed out the idea of the family to the idea of the state on some level. We take the elders and put them in it. to home. We take our children and put them into school and then we go work. And the whole relationship is out of balance. And when that happens, you're left with a hole in your heart. You left with a lack of communication and understanding. And then all of a sudden you catch a glimpse of it. Look at this. This is it down here. I want to follow that. Like it's alien, this idea of the

self to so many people. When you see it, you're attracted to it like a moth of the flame. Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good. So, yeah, speaking, to the lack of these things, the lack of connection to ourselves to nature, to community, and the divine and so when we stumble across it, it's like, wow, and it takes my breath away. Now, that's all good and fine, right up until we decide we're going to hang out a shingle. There's a big stuff missing in between. And so what's happening there? Why is this happening?

Because, you know, the average person will actually realize that if they want to practice dentistry, They have to go to dental school. And if they want to be a veterinarian, they actually, I mean, it's a different from just having pets as companions, not just having a dog, but you actually want to be a veterinarian. That's the whole of the thing. You know, nothing stops you if you're a decent, average, ordinary person that's going to feed your dog and walk your dog or your cat or what have you from having a companion animal. But when you go practicing on anybody else's companion animals, that's a whole other thing, you know. And so what is it that happens? So there's a few things.

Okay, we've touched on personal vulnerabilities and, you know, unfulfilled spiritual longings and the desire to help and to serve and to give and to share. And I love this so much. And it was so wonderful for me that I want you to share in it. And I touch the hand of God. I want you to touch the hand of God. I experience the divine light. I want you to experience the divine line.

You know, I threw up my entire bad karma. I want you to throw up your entire bad karma. I mean, there's that part of it, you know. And so, you know, a person who feels like that, you know what, it's better to attach yourself to an existing situation where there are credential than or apprentice people and learn how to work with people. Okay, either go to school or go into an apprenticeship line. If you feel that thing. Now, why some people don't is often, you know, this sense of entitlement, the sense of ego. I've had people actually say to me, I don't need training.

I don't need any training. Everything that I need, I get from my guide. My guide tells me what to do. Okay, God bless. that's okay for you but you're going to work with my people that's okay if your guide is dining you I have no problem that's great you know carry on God bless but now you're going to take that

that you can have a right to work with other people because you have found something within yourself okay so there's that ego piece it's something that we watch for in the South of I'm assuming other heritage traditions are looking for the same thing. And it's basically somebody who's in a narcissistic bubble. Yeah, they're in a narcissistic bubble. I'm it.

I don't need anything else. I know everything. As I said, you've seen the light. I'm now enlightened. Who was it who posted that lovely little thing? I reached in length. I'd like to give the shout out to the right person. I can't think it was too.

I think it was Shannon. Shannon Duncan. It might have been Shannon. Okay, it might have been Shannon. So shout out Shannon that, you know, oh, I've lightened, you know. I've killed my ego or I've transferred my ego or something. It's a version of a very cool, common one. You know, now I'm better than everyone else.

So I'm it. So that's the narcissistic bubble. Okay. And it's been talked about since that I'm, I'm aware of since the 60s. We were talking about it back then in the 60s when people were taking all these substances and things were happening.

Ram Dass was writing and you know, everybody was singing about it and writing about it and asking questions about it. Like what do we do with the narcissistic bubble? Because when somebody's in a narcissistic bubble, they're in it. And any attempt to penetrate the narcissistic bubble

will be considered personal attack and will be repelled strongly. And it will be repelled often because they perceived it as a personal attack when it isn't, okay, they will respond with a personal attack. And this is just classic narcissistic bubble behavior. The best thing to do with it is just kind of God bless, live on, prosper, all good vibrations to you and keep with them. Okay. You can't engage in that. You can't. engage in it because somebody is not willing and are not ready when that those kind of bubbles the person has to want to open the door and come out of that bubble and what

has to want to if they don't want to guess what they won't and that can make it difficult okay so we have to be aware if we see that we're getting involved in a situation. Somebody says, oh, you should go to this event, retreat, happening, whatever, you know. And the thing is, a lot of narcissists are very charismatic. Most of our politicians are, most of our Hollywood stars are a certain amount of narcissism is indigenous to being human. We all have some small and narcissism, okay? All of us. And we all need to be aware of it. That does not make us a narcissist or a narcissistic personality disorder. Just we have to know our own garden variety of narcissism and just come to terms with it.

So it can be brilliant, can be charismatic, can be all kinds of things that look like a great light. But because of that, because there's no credentialing, there's no apprenticeship, there's no, or there could be some of that. there could be people who have been recognized as being teachers or psychologists and or doctors and or, you know, choose any venue and who are also in a narcissistic bubble and who can, you know, willfully, with willful ignorance, bring harm to others. Because of that, because of the lack of openness to support peer feedback, peer review. for colleagues and friends to be able to sit down and say, hey, Fred, Sally, whatever your names. I think we've got to talk about this, this thing that's happening here. Can you talk about it?

And that willingness to communicate and have transparency about concerns, that can be really scary for people. And so people can slide into codependency. And the next thing you know is you have a whole bunch of people who are keeping quiet around the good. the chaman, the healer. Because they've bounced off the narcissistic bubble a couple of times and been put in their place with a personal attack.

Okay? Because remember the narcissist will, in the bubble, will proceed any feedback as a personal attack rather than just simply information. Information that's being given respectfully. So we have personal longings and fulfilled spiritual desires and longings. We have narcissism, a sense of entitlement, I can do what I want, nobody tells me what to do, okay, I know everything, okay?

And then we have, let's take it one step further, we have malintent. There is one step, you know. People who've written about evil tend to write about evil. in a few ways, one in a very kind of religious way, which is not helpful for most people. Okay, cast it out. That's not so helpful for most people. The transpersonal way is, I think, a much healthier way to look at things, which is, is this mine? If it's mine, okay, if it belongs to me, then I need to deal with it.

And if it feels like it's not mine, where did it come from? Is this an old belief system that I got that causes me to believe something that makes me act this way? Like, let's take entitlement. If I was taught that I'm marvelous and wonderful and special and can do everything that I want anywhere any dime, then that's going to pluff up the narcissistic bubble quite a bit, isn't it? Yeah. You know? And then, you know, that's mine.

That's my bubble. Okay. no matter how it got started, it is now mine. And I'm keeping it in place, and I'm shining it and polishing it and making sure that I'm looking good, right? Instead of I'm dealing with it. I'm dealing with it. And so we go to that.

That's the next step, which is deliberate and now intent. Willful things. I know what I'm doing is hurting someone. I don't care. because fulfilling my need is more important in this moment than anything that might happen to you. Now we see this across the board in all kinds of situations. We see this with, let's do something really prevalent in our world, which is addictions to alcohol, alcoholism.

And although I don't have personal experience, direct personal experience with this, and the blessing of having parents who didn't have addictions of that level, for sure, or a partner, or life partner, or what have you, or children. But I know from my own work and research and work with clients for all these decades, that this is a really difficult challenge for so many people on both sides of the story. Right? The person who has the addiction needs a lot of support and clarity and love, and the people who are on the other side, the family members,

they need support and clarity and good tools to work with. But you can't tell me that the alcoholic doesn't know when they head out to drink, that it's not going to lead to a pretty place. And that's what creates what John Bradshaw says, is the cycle of shame because they know. They know that when they take this drug or when they do this thing, that this leads to a cycle of shame.

And the cycle of shame then, because it becomes the thing that they then need to comfort. And so then after a while, they go out and whatever it is they do, and then they go back in their cycle of shame. So it's breaking the cycle of shame. So there's that level where a lot of education and skills and support and help is needed. and then are there people in the world who just is it nature or nurture but are there people in the world who truly don't care are there are there psychopaths that's what they are are are are there are actually there are and that's immensely sad and we need compassion but we also need extremely healthy boundaries and we need enormous wisdom to be

able to not, I have seen people pathologize spirituality, pardon me say this before, and I have seen people spiritualized psychopatology. And not knowing the difference is huge for people who are working with psychedelics and navigants. Because, you know, recent anybody who watches the news, recent research on cannabis here in Canada they made cannabis legal and regulatory. Now I I was in favoring that because there's so much problems with it that being not legal, right? I'm in favor of it the same way.

How can you have tobacco and alcohol legal and not have cannabis people? But for me, the regulation should have been more strict. Okay. And so be it. They are now realizing the amount of problems that have increased the number of psychosis that have happened. Because of cannabis. I mean, they just stuck all the research up on the 10 o'clock news and said, here it is, folks, take a look.

Since legalization, what was it, five years ago, six years ago, this is what's increased as a direct result. It wasn't COVID. COVID didn't do this, okay? COVID did its own thing. This is as a direct flow. These are cannabis related, the same way you can say drinking and driving does this, right? Yeah, people have accidents anyway when they haven't been drinking, for sure, but you had

alcohol into the mix, you're going to have a lot more accidents. So there's, if people are choosing, deliberately choosing to call themselves spellers and chalmers and what have you and serving people or providing people with so that they take it along or serving it and being present with them, then if they do not understand the consequences and their responsibility of serving it. new people and all of the implications, the seriousness of it. Sure, some people may have these fabulous, wonderful experiences, and they, you know, encounter beings that are marvelous and see wonderful things

and have great internal experiences, and that's wonderful, okay? And yet, there's all these other problems, people who take it alone and have all these difficult experiences, people that people don't want to know about and they don't want it written about. Then people who are serving and getting into all kinds of problems because they get caught up because they, it's the money thing and it's the sex thing and it's the power thing. And so the misuse of power, the misuse of sexuality, the misuse of issues around money and boundaries and limitations, become so much more blurry where there's no principles in place. where there's no code of ethics in place,

where there's just kind of a one-on-one or here, go and do it alone in your own home. And so these are really important questions that need to be asked. And for those who aren't aware, it's actually illegal here in Quebec, and I think in the rest of Canada, to call yourself a therapist from your mouth,

to call yourself a fueler, it's actually illegal. And people don't realize that. People don't realize that. It's not a, it's not a huge big deal to go out. And, I mean, through the years, I've encouraged people take a life coaching program. It's a two-year certificate program. You'll learn some great stuff in the two years. You'll learn about ethics and accountability and what your limits are and what you can call it yourself. And you don't have to invest and become a psychiatrist and put 11 years of your life into it. You can put two years in. Go and do it.

and do it. And kind of that's like the minimum certificate that I could recommend that people do that. And at least then you will have some absolute basics to be working with. And then ask yourself some deep questions. Why am I serving people? Is this about me? Is this about helping the universe? Is this about what does this work? Why am I doing this? Is it a calling? Is it a mission? What is it? Those are the questions.

I mean, people need to ask themselves. I can't answer any of those questions for anybody else for myself. So feedback. Where are you? Where'd you go to, George? Well, you know, I think there's an interesting question on my mind that I think you are uniquely

qualified to answer. And it's this idea that the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior. And it seems to me that, you know, if we look back on psychedelics and you reference some, you know, some of your work back in the 80s and even before then and experiences, it seems to me like in the 60s, like the late 50s to the 60s was this transition from entheogens and psychedelics

from a medical container outside the lab. And that's when you began to see things like Jonestown and all these other things. Do you think that if that's a potential pattern that could be happening almost now, are we in the similar frame? Well, things are happening. It hasn't certainly pleased. Right. Fingers crossed, it doesn't get to that kind of thing.

But I mean, you know, there was, I was being reminded recently about the person who decided, who declared themselves to be a sweat lodge leader, okay? And again, sweat launch is a deep, long-term indigenous tradition that takes years and years of apprenticing before you were really given permission to lead you no sweat lodges. And this person decided on a a sweat lodge keeper. Okay?

And killed everybody because he covered the he covered the sweat lodge with the cart because he thought it might ring. Which no sweat lodge. He would ever permit. I've heard a sweat lodge leader's look and say,

weather's not good, we won't be doing the sweat lodge today. The vibrations aren't right. Nope, nope, we'll come back tomorrow. We'll gather tomorrow. I've been in, you know, waiting for the committiva to arrive with the Padrino, and the Pardinos walked in and he said the meetings aren't here, so we won't be doing, St. Michael's work, Kirkukora.

We'll be doing a simple concentration because we don't have the meetings. And so here you have the intelligent, experience, wise decisions that are made. when you assess in the moment, you assess who's here and what's happening. And that takes apprenticeship, that takes training, that takes wisdom, that takes many, many years to learn when to do what and why you're doing it, and who you're calling,

and when to look at somebody and say, okay, we need to give you some water right now. Okay, you need to go down right now. you know i i hear this whole other conversation about mediumship i hear these horrific stories okay i mean we have to warn people coming into our church this is the kind of mediumship we accept in our church and you're not allowed to do that okay so we do not permit people in our church we have a lot of people who come and all of a sudden they're mediums okay they've had this you know and something's open then they're going to meet people's oros and they're going to they see

dark beings and they're going to remove their dark being. And it's like, no, you don't get you to do that, not sure. Okay. And people come in from all kinds of backgrounds. We have to tell you, you can't do this. We work in the life. We work with certain beings in the line. We serve those guardians of the life. We don't make any claims for personal harm.

We don't go over to people and start touching them to get to the place where I would give someone permission to touch somebody else. That's many years. Okay? But you've got people who self-aclaimed healers and mediums and all kinds of stuff. And you have a dark being and you had a past life and I see that you've got a thing and you've got a that. I heard a horrific story about somebody going to a particular place here in Canada. And the person walked around, the person leading the event walked around with some kind of a staff or something

and was tapping people and saying, you have a heart thing. and it's because your grandmother was a witch and you have a this because of that and you have a dark being and you have these people doing this and you have a demon and you have a dark being because I'm the only person who can remove it from you. Right.

I heard stories that are really, you know, and the thing is, is people can, can be very deeply affected by that. This can create tremendous harm, real harm to other people. Now, hey, it's vastly different. If you're going to go and hang your shingle out somewhere on the medium, and then people call you up knowing what you do, okay, and make an appointment with you and understand to be there on Tuesday at 2 o'clock in the afternoon,

and they're going to be paying 150 bucks for the time they spend with you, and you're going to be doing a reading on them of some kind, at which point they may tell you something about your past lives or your aura or what's in your space. That, for me, is vastly different. Then people going into some kind of what they think is going to be a spiritual experience or a personal growth experience, where they're going to be taking a psychedelic or an anthogen,

and then they are under the influence in a very powerful, non-ordinary state of consciousness and being told things like this. This is not acceptable. Not in my world. Not acceptable. You do hear the vast differences, right? Of course. But this is unfortunately what is happening in many places.

You know, people claiming to be meetings, claiming to be healers, claiming to be psychics, claiming to be all kinds of things. and you know I'm going to move back into in my position what I see is is in the history of the human experience there have always been people who have some kind of talent or gift or understanding about working with people and they became medicine men and medicine women because they loved the plants and they felt like they could talk to them and they understood which ones could help you here and which ones could help you there. Yes, a lot of them were burnt as witches and killed as what have you because they had beliefs that didn't align with the religious beliefs at the time, right?

So there's been a lot of persecution that's happened because of on the part of these very traditional heritage practices. But the thing is, is those men and women who practice this, they earned their titles because they apprenticed with, it's like midwives through all these millions of years. Midwives, apprentices, the time they're small children, five to six years old, they'd be apprenticing. They'd feel drawn to when the babies are being born. They'd be apprenticing and learning.

They'd study years and years. with a senior midwife until she planted over. Say you're ready. Go deliver a baby. And so that's how it was. You apprenticed for years to learn something, whether it was carving or music or midwifery or plant medicine. You apprenticed for years.

Now our culture has changed. But my proposition to everybody listening is either go into an apprenticeship situation with somebody who you trust and respect. or go out and get some education and some credential. Those are the only true paths open for people who really want to work in honor of new states of consciousness. Are there still people out there? Yes. Then what stops them from doing what needs to be done?

Where are you at? I'm just, I think it speaks volumes of the idea of lived experience. And on some level, I think it speaks to this idea that we see in the community, especially within theogens and psychedelics is there is this there's this divide between someone who has gone to medical school being able to serve versus someone who has lived experience and sometimes it's an either or but maybe it should be a both and maybe those people should be working together on a team yeah they should be working together I'm a great believer in the team effort and I think that this is the way forward okay this is a

the way forward. Let's take a moment. I know time is running on. Yeah, it's fine. But let's talk about medical intuitives. Okay. This is something that has come up from time to time. Okay. My understanding of a true medical intuitive is this, that they are, they receive that title as a medical intuitive based on the fact that their efforts have been acknowledged by a team of people.

who are actually medical doctors and allied health professionals. My understanding, based on having participated in a minor way in a research project a few decades ago now, that included medical intuitives, is that a medical intuitive doesn't go and do any particular reading and then work with a person, but what they do is they do their reading and they'll often do it remotely. And then they'll sit with the medical team, which could include a doctor, and any other specialist or health professional needed for the situation, they will give their impressions or their diagnosis. And what makes them become a true medical intuitive is the accuracy.

The accuracy of their diagnosis and how it dovetails into the actual situation of the patient. So if nine or ten times out of ten, the person is accurate in what they perceive within the person, okay, this person, they may say, okay, there's something wrong with the liver, and the person, you know, there's this, and I recommend that the person do this, this, this, and this. So maybe changing their diet, you may be doing something else, or that they may be holding certain things in their liver. And then the medical doctor says, yeah, they have cancer in the liver. Okay, so yeah, this person read it right.

So this is how the medical intuitive gets known as a medical intuitive because they work with the team. They count on the team. They're a member of the team. And this is how the profits used to work. You know, profits only became a prophet because what they said came to pass. You weren't called a profit until so many of the things that you prophesied came to pass. and when people saw, oh, they said this was going to happen and happen.

So once it happens three times or five times or ten times, and especially it's happening from a young child, a young child is saying we need to be careful of this and we need to watch out for that or don't trust that person. Okay. Then they see, okay, now we can call this person a profit because we know that what they say is going to come to pass in some form or another.

versus self-acquainted prophets. I talk to God and God talks to me and you guys have to do this because that's what God told me to tell you. No, no, no. Run, run, run,

okay, run. So it's the same for all of these other categories in my world. Now this is just my opinion, my worldview, watching this happen for the last 50-odd years. scratching my head and trying to understand it. I'm concerned about the future

because those of us who are seriously involved in these paths, we look at what's happening and if there are enough problems that happen, if there's enough deaths, if there's enough psychosis, if there's enough this, then rather than regulations for being more positive regulations

for use, there will be closing down game. And unless people who, really feel, I mean, there's a lot of really good people out there who've spent years and possibly decades, a kind of apprenticing in different ways and times and have accumulated, let's call them an apprenticeship overall, then they should be partnering with people. And so that they ensure that they have, you know, that what they're doing is really a benefit and that they, and that they, and by partnering with people that they are creating the best opportunity for everybody to be together in the same ethical and accountable kind of world of view. Okay, we're all making sure that we're on the same ethical page.

We're all counting on each other, Georgia. I count on you to help hold me accountable. You know, I'm willing to help hold you accountable. That's the kind of peer support that we need. If we don't have that, we're going to go astray pretty quickly. Yeah, I think so too. I think that the, I don't want to say rewards, but the, the, not enticement's not the right word either, but the, the desire on some level to wrap your arms around something that is so powerful, you know, leads people astray. The temptation is the right word. The temptation to do it is very powerful. And that, and that's why you need. guidelines. You need people, you need elders. You need people that have dealt with temptation and

seeing the dark side of it and maybe touched it on some level or been close to it. Yes, or even falling off the path right straight into it. And had to crawl and climb to get back on the path. And this is how we all learn. And, you know, some of us just need to put our finger in it and others need to do a deep dive. I'm going to share. a story quickly before because it's indicative of deliberate, intentional, willful. Part of the story is in volume one of my books. It comes from a larger story, as these things always do, but there is a man who is the leader of a church, a large church in the Rio de Janeiro area, who has a very well-known

reputation for problems, cannabis addiction, rage, rage temper, tantrums, wow, and inappropriate sexual behavior, including non-consensual. Okay, but jurisdiction has always been the problem. And so, and how things got handled down there and that center and their allied centers. In the very early days in my central dime journeys, I had visited that center on a number of occasions. and had profound experiences and deep apprenticeships, okay, and learned tremendous amount of things. But after a short while, started to notice there was problems. Remember, I don't know the culture,

I don't speak the language, so it takes a little while to figure out that there's something going on, right? And so I sat with this man and I said to him, you do know you have, can I ask a question? I said, have you noticed you do have a problem with anger? It did take seven of us. to hold you down because he wanted to go and kill somebody.

I think he was in such a rage that he actually wanted to go. He was so angry that someone had called him out. Here is bumping on the narcissistic bubble. Okay? Somebody had called him out on his cannabis addiction. And he wanted to go over and basically kill them. So you bang on that bubble hard enough and you're going to get it all back at you. So this is why a lot of people,

people go into codependency, either slink away or go into codependency and start trying to please the petty tyrant. And he's your classic example of pedigand. So I said to him, do you know you have a problem with rage, right? And he says, yeah. And I said, well, and, you know, and I was taking all my courage to confront. And, and he looks at me and he smiles and he says, I have a door inside of me that when I open it to very dark dreams come through. Thank you.

You've been a wonderful teacher. We're done. I have a door. In other words, it's my door. When I open it, I know who comes through. I let them come through. I invite them through. I wrote a paper called an open door.

You can all find it on my website. It's about mediumship and some basic little things about mediumship. Some of that information is in volume one of my books. But this is the perfect example to me of willful. I have a door. When I open that door, two very dark beings come through me, knowing that those two dark beings will cause harm and do damage. This is like you having two dogs who you know have been trained to kill.

and you see the neighborhood kids playing and their ball is gone on your front lawn you don't like that so you've been enjoying old dogs so yes there is that there are people who know they know they're doing harm they know and another session

if you want can be why do people go to codependent and give away their power because I've seen this so not what happens to people that they gave away their power and little people. Women give away their power. It seems much more so than men.

That's because of patriarchal systems. But why do people give away their power? And then they're furious that they've given away their power. Okay, and they're furious the person they've given it to. So if you're interested, that's a whole other conversation. Part two on power. Yeah. It's a great segue into that.

And I think it's really relevant. So let's do that one. Okay. It's been grand. It's been grand. We wandered around a little bit. I hope that it's been helpful for people. Remember, it's just my personal opinion.

There's going to be lots of people who will not agree with this. And that's okay. That's all right. There's room for everybody's opinion. But I hope that in the conversation, there are a few things to help people think. Just to reflect. To stop and do an inner reflection about how am I managing.

this and how am I doing it? And this one of the thing I could be doing that can help the situation be better through more accountability, more transparency, more conversation, more support, more impeccability. What can I be doing that will help this? So that's the question I leave our listeners with. It's been grand. Thank you, George.

Always a joy. You have the greatest host. Thank you. But thank you for being here. I truly appreciate it. And I think there's a great question to leave people with. And I applaud the recent posts that are going viral. And I see them as invitations to engage in the conversation.

And I appreciate that. And I hope everyone else sees it the same way because they're great. And I love it. And I think it's very valuable. So ladies and gentlemen, please check if you, if you're watching, here's what the books look like. This is Volume 1 and Volume 2 of a set. Go down, check them out. go check out Dr. Jessica Rochester's site.

It's a brand new site. It's full of amazing information. You'll find the way to navigate it is easy to use and it's fun and it's a ton of, it's got lots of resources. So check it out. That's all we got for today. Dr. Jessica Rochester, thank you so much for your time.

Always insightful, always loving, and I really appreciate it. That's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. I hope we have a beautiful day alone.