TrueLife - Rewilding the Mind -How Psychedelics are Transforming Healing & Conciousness W/Keith Heinzerling

Episode Date: February 8, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️Aloha, everyone, and welcome back to TrueLife! Today, we’re diving deep into the frontier of consciousness, healing, and human potential with a guest who stands at the cutting edge of psychedelic research and medicine.He’s the Director of the Pacific Treatment and Research in Psychedelics (TRIP) Center at the Pacific Neuroscience Institute in Santa Monica, where he leads groundbreaking studies into how altered states of consciousness can transform behavior and improve health. But that’s just the beginning.As the co-founder of SkyFire Retreats, he’s helping design safe and transformative experiences for those seeking profound spiritual growth. And through ReWild Medicine, he’s exploring how psychedelics can reconnect us—to ourselves, to nature, and to a deeper sense of planetary stewardship.Board-certified in both Addiction Medicine and Internal Medicine, he brings his expertise to the front lines of healing, while also pioneering cannabinoid-based medications through BDH Pharma to combat pain and addiction. And let’s not forget—he’s a former UCLA faculty member, blending cutting-edge research with real-world impact.This is a man dedicated to pushing boundaries, redefining medicine, and helping humanity evolve. Buckle up—this is going to be an electrifying conversation.https://skyfireretreats.com/#retreatswww.PacificTrip.orghttp://linkedin.com/in/keith-heinzerling-81245498Please welcome Keith Heinzerling to the show! One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Live podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back.

Today, we're diving deep into the frontiers of consciousness, healing and human potential with a guest who stands at the cutting edge of psychedelic research and medicine. He's the director of the Pacific Treatment and Research in Psychedelics, the Trip Center, at the Pacific Neuroscience Institute in Santa Monica, where he leads groundbreaking studies into how altered states of consciousness can transform behavior and improve health. But that's just the beginning. As the co-founder of Skyfire Retreats, he's helping design safe and transformative experiences for those seeking profound spiritual growth.

And through rewild medicine, he's exploring how psychedelics can reconnect us to ourselves, to nature, and to a deeper sense of planetary stewardship. Ford certified in both addiction medicine and internal medicine, he brings his expertise to the front lines of healing, while also pioneering cannabinoid-based, medications through BDH pharma to combat pain and addiction. And let's not forget he's a former UCLA faculty member blending cutting edge research with real world impact. This is a man dedicated to

pushing boundaries, redefining medicine and helping humanity evolve. So buckle up. This is going to be an electrifying conversation. Please welcome Keith Heinzerling to the show. Keith, how are you? Very good, George. Thank you so much. I'm so stoked you're

here, man. You are at the front lines with psychedelics and medicine. And it's such an amazing time to be at the front lines and see all this change happening, man. Like, were you always excited with psychedelics? How did you get here, man? Give us a little bit of a background. Yeah.

And thank you for such a, just an amazing introduction. I mean, probably the one part I would add is that despite that I've been lucky to be in some cool places and work with some really amazing people. and we've gotten some things done. We still have a lot left to do. But more and more I'm growing to appreciate how I'm really just like all of us as student of this life. And it's really humbling how much we don't know.

And the most exciting parts of my activities these days are the parts that I feel I know the least about and I have the least training expertise and credentials for, and those are the parts that are really attracting my attention and energy, but it's also very humbling, and I'm just lucky to be surrounded by some also very smart and humble people. But to answer your question, I've always been interested in psychedelics. It's a fascinating topic related to consciousness.

But I went into medicine and was very interested in research. Initially worked in medical school in some immunology labs just doing basic research, but got interested in drug addiction by doing some clinical rotations and interacting with some patients who were using heroin. And that led me to working for many, many years, both initially trying to help people who were injecting heroin, not contract HIV, doing harm reduction research, and then moving into tempting to help people get off of drugs and alcohol when they're ready through addiction medicine, spent 13 years at UCLA doing clinical trials, trying to

develop medications for addictions. And eventually, even though, you know, I think a lot of people are often talking about or posting online talking about how they've, you know, they hit, they had a point where they were either disillusioned or frustrated or they were seeking meaning. And I have to be honest with you, I was very happy at UCLA and having a great time and really good environment with amazing people. I was not disgruntled or dissatisfied, but I think I came to the conclusion that the linear path we were on was not going to get us to treatments that were going to make a different. for people and psychedelics for alcohol use disorder and drug use disorder addictions. It seemed like that might hold a potential to be like a paradigm shift.

And I got a chance to take a job at the Pacific Neuroscience Institute in 2019 to work with some others to start this trip center. And the rest has just been from there. man what a beautiful route it's so interesting to see the origin stories and for so many people I talk to it does start with addiction on some level maybe not always with drugs but like addictive personalities or something that we addict to it's it's an it's an interesting process that whole idea of addiction you know it's kind of weird too he's like it seems to me sometimes in the whole addiction process the people that may move to psychedelic sometimes

they find themselves on the receiving end of other people. Like, hey, you're using another drug to get off these drugs. It's kind of a gray area, isn't it? Yes. And I will tell you, the most established ways to get off of a drug is by switching to something else that might be less harmful in the short term, whether it's, you know, the approved, if you want to go by the Food and Drug Administration, the approved treatments for the most the most, you know, widespread medications to treat addictions are nicotine replacement therapy.

So like nicotine gum, patch, lozenge, where you're saying, don't get your nicotine from a cigarette, get it from the gum or whatnot. And then a medication buprenorphine that is a substitute for other opiates. And there's sometimes there's controversy about that. Like you're just replacing one for the other, but you are. And if somebody is going to either have a heart attack or stroke from smoking or die of a fentanyl overdose, then, and the alternative is safer, short term sounds like a reasonable move. But it's not a panacea.

It doesn't address any of the underlying issues. And frankly, you know, the thing about psychedelics that I thought was possible at the time when I was first thinking about this. and I think still has been reinforced by my experience with psychedelic therapy is that the majority of our mental health treatments in the medical realm are oriented towards either symptoms. And it can be very important sometimes to help stabilize people, but they don't solve any problems and they don't actually go at the underlying cause of whatever the symptom is. right, we're up here treating depression or anxiety or cravings for a drug. And down here is the real core issue for that person that is eventually, right, like we often say

addiction is a symptom of whatever the underlying conflict is. And by the time it bubbles to the surface, it's drug use or unhealthy drug use or alcohol use. So, you know, psychedelic therapy, the paradigm is entirely different. It's more about transforming yourself or looking inward and finding out something about yourself. And it may, there's actually, there's some evidence that chemically psychedelics operate on the brain and the body to reduce symptoms as well, which is nice and good. But, you know, and it's nice particularly at the start. But really, it's starting that process, engaging the change process that I think is where psychedelic therapy has the most. potential for addictions.

Yeah. I heard a quote a while back, and it was, gosh, darn it, I wish I could think of the individuals who were talking, but it was like a Western sort of a Western doctor talking to this sort of gentleman from South America. And they were talking about medicine and drugs. And the guy from South America said, there's a fundamental difference. He goes, your drugs make you feel. feel good and then they make you feel bad afterwards.

Our drugs make you feel bad and then they make you feel good. You know what I started thinking about. I had to sit down for a minute and be like, wait a minute. And I was like, I could see that. It's kind of interesting to think about it. I mean, we'll have to, we'll have to dig up who that was so we can give them proper attribution. I would, I would, yeah. So, the, you know, one thing, all the, you know, one thing, all

also about psychedelics in therapy is that, and addiction is that, you know, a lot of times I think people think when if you're not in the throes of addiction, you look at what's happening with the person and you think, how could they be doing this? It's so obviously harming them. Why would they do it? It's completely illogical and irrational. But when you, when you, if you create an environment where the person, you're doing this. feels comfortable to explain what they're going through their thought process, you know,

it's not if you create a safe space for them to talk. They'll tell you the story. And a lot of times I say, wow, if I were in that position, I might be choosing to use drugs as well. Like, I don't, it's hard to judge people if there's a certain amount of pain or trauma or or a sense of being lost and a drug provides a temporary relief from that, it's really hard to go against that. And I myself, I think, I've had a charmed life, you know, for some reason. And I haven't had to endure those hardships that some of the people have. But had I, I might have turned to drugs as well. But the real path forward is, you know, just giving up that, that, that crutch, unfortunately. And it can get harder before it gets good, you know, giving up.

Some people ironically are kind of stable in their chaos. They have a chaotic life using drugs or alcohol. But they figured out how to patch it together with duct tape. And then when you take the alcohol or drug out, you know, it's in danger of falling apart. But then if they can get through that part and then get to a better place, then they may go. But it's, you know, a lot of people say, many people have said, you know, usually people are filling up some sort of void with the drug or alcohol. There's something missing there that is that, that, you know, would more, in a more adaptive and healthy way to fill it up, would be many ways. You have connections with connections with other people, with healthy activities, with, you know, spirituality.

And a lot of times people talk about addiction being isolating. And I think that there's some truth to that. Yeah. It's there's another idea that is it the individual that's sick or is it the society that's sick? You know, in a society that's ill, the most well-adjusted people that are. probably the sickest, you know, and I know that from from working as a truck driver for a long time, you know, you're up at five, you're working 14 hours a day, by the time you get home, everybody's sleeping. The weekend comes, you got nothing left. You don't see your family. Like,

you feel horrible. And a lot of people do things all day long to get by and it makes them feel horrible because they're, they're got social media coming in. And it's like, you know what? If I just take this modafinal, I can get through my day, you know, and I can feel pretty good about it. or, you know, what's wrong with a few, what's wrong with five beers after work? You know, that's normal. And it's, it's a big part of society, especially addiction. Like, and don't we run on drugs? Aren't we a culture that runs on drugs?

And like the language is so weird about it, like drugs and alcohol. What is it alcoholic drug? What's going on there? Like people have caffeine all day long. Well, I think the context in which someone's using a substance is really important to look at. And, you know, I mean, it's, I think. that it's unrealistic to expect that humans won't take substances and yeah um right that's just naive probably but people could be much more and again this is something that that indirectly that

psychedelic experiences and um teach you right and number one there's the idea that you should have an intention for your your use of a psychedelic and and the set in the setting the context is important and you know the the the people and the the culture and the societies who we owe everything to for psychedelics, who the indigenous world that figured out that certain plants or fungi had these effects and that they could then be used in a beneficial way, they're sacred in those cultures. And something sacred, you don't just take something sacred on Friday night

and, you know, to have fun. It's something that also has some prohibitions and some structures around that, you know, something sacred is often used within the context of a ritual or a ceremony. And, you know, I really, one of the things that I'm, and I'm a, you know, I'm a white guy doctor, highly educated white guy in California. Like, I'm ill positioned in one respect to, to, you know, be a spokesperson for this. At the same time, I try very hard not to think, you know, don't avoid response. responsibility and, you know, be as impactful as I can from my position. But I do think, like, I'm not interested in going back to ancient times. And I want to live, we have to live in the

modern world. And we're doing this with technology. It's wonderful. We wouldn't have been able to do this without technology. There are so many good things. And I'm incredibly enthusiastic and still just fascinated by science. But at the same time, you know, there are many ways of knowing and interacting and there are layers of our experience and our reality that are more mysterious or subjective and just emphasizing the rational approach to things is is not going to get us as a society, as humanity, as a planet, as a universe to a better place. You know, science can't solve all of the problems. And I'd really like to, I'm very interested in modern psychedelic therapy.

And I'm, you know, but I think we have a lot to learn from ceremonial and ritual use of psychedelics. And in essence, you know, a clinic with a therapist and a doctor where the patient comes in and they go through certain procedures, we take their blood pressure. It's a ritual. It's a modern, it's a modern Western ritual. but you know medical right we doctors are expected to have a stethoscope and we listen to people's hearts and sometimes now we just do it you're like why did i listen to the heart i didn't really need to do that it's kind of what doctors do right it's part of the rule and there's power in that that can be leveraged to help people i don't think we should you know we shouldn't ignore it and we also shouldn't like sterilize it too much but we shouldn't appropriate and we need to you know attribute when when we are

where things came from and, you know, a lot of things to keep in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in track of at the same time, but I think we can do it. We have to, you know, you have to. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, the people in this particular culture, like let's just take white guys, since we're a bunch of white guys. Like, I don't thoroughly understand the culture in Brazil, but I know that I can benefit from psychedelics in a way, that I can explain it to another white guy over here. You know, a fellow truck driver, I can be like, and I have. Like, I've sat down with these guys. Hey, this is what I'm doing. This is how it works. This is why it works. If you would like to try it, here's the method that I use. And then I get feedback from these guys. Like, wow, that was amazing. It's really helped me do these things. So in a way, it's almost like a different dialect of a language. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with figuring out how to use this tool in our culture in a way that's respectful.

And you are on the cutting edge, though, because you're over here and you have one foot in the world of medicine and one foot over here in spirituality on some level. So you're walking this line and getting to see so much of it. Is that challenging at times? Yes, because I definitely want to avoid making mistakes or offending anything. and, you know, I think we're all, myself and my colleagues and peers who are doing this type of work, I think we really feel like this is a really unique time and a special time, and there's an opportunity to make a difference here. And so we're both excited and anticipating a want to go and do things.

At the same time, a sense of caution about, you know, know, we shouldn't, we can't mess this up. So I try to stay humble and also, you know, Karina Sergi is a therapist who is our director of therapy at the Trip Center and a colleague of mine. And she is always reminding us that the point is that we're here to be of service to ourselves and others. That's the only reason we're all here in this life. And the, the way that you might be of service can very greatly, it might be something very local and immediate in your, even just in your own family or to a friend. It could be something anonymous or it could be something very high profile. You could be a leader and be in charge of a company or in the

government or it might be just something, you know, that people might consider small. And those quote unquote small acts are actually probably some of the most important. So, you know, I carry that sense of responsibility and try to make sure that we orient everything we're doing towards being of service. And at the same time, realizing that, you know, there's a certain amount of stuff in the real world that has to be done to pay the rent on the clinic and, you know, pay people's salaries. and that, you know, there's a lot of controversy and debate about the pharmaceutical development of psychedelics, and I share a lot of those concerns. But I keep working on it primarily because, number one, in the United States, the way to get the government to make a change in the legal status, like, say, psilocybin, for example,

one of the most solid ways to do it would be to get FDA approval of the medicine as a treatment, and it would change the legal status and recognize that there are some benefits of psilocybin, and I think that is worth contributing to. And also just that, you know, what I learn as a student of spirituality, I try to, you know, carry that to how I, you know, when we're doing science, There's no spirituality in like an objective scientific study other than that we're humans. And, you know, at least my take on it is that we're physical and more than physical. So that's always going to be there.

But we are very careful and intentional about, you know, this is designed it with a modern scientific method. And there are there, you would not want, you don't want to let anything into that experiment that could get it off track, whether it's something spiritual or otherwise, it needs to be controlled. It's a controlled, randomized, controlled trial. So we're very careful about controlling things. But nonetheless, you know, the ethics of working with patients and responsible use of psychedelics is well informed, I think, by spiritual work without or without any type of work on yourself.

And so I think it does help us to try to do a good job with the research to make sure it makes an impact. And also be in those groups and be a voice for some of these concerns about the commercialization with the people who are in charge of commercializing it. Because not all of them are, you know, most of them want to help people. People who run pharmaceutical companies, there's a lot of scientists and doctors and therapists and they want to help people, but there's a lot of pressure and inertia towards, you know, are commercial. And so we try to stay involved to be a voice for, you know, to back them up and also just cheer them on and be a dissenting voice if necessary to try to make sure we all are in service.

Yeah. Thank you for that. There's a lot of information there. And on some level, it seems to me like the world of medicine is beginning to fracture in a way. And maybe in a good way. Like there's starting, I'm starting to see these models that are like, you know, if the process. The world. Thank you.

Yes. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I was literally having a conversation the other day with someone very much like this where we were kind of frustrated about like, we're like, why is it? going on in our little like universe of trying to get this project and then I realized I was like this is just a microcosm of what's happening writ large everywhere there's just there's a spirit of you know things are we're in a transition apparently and the machine is you know is grinding forward and I think I have I have so much hope and and I hope to contribute it moving in a

direction, right? But we're all feeling that, I think, right? And yes, it's happening that not just, it's happening in medicine because it's happening everywhere else. Yes. Psychedelics, you know, people ask us a lot. How do you, you know, how can we prepare, how can we adapt psychedelics to fit into the health care system? That's what we need to do, right? They're like, psychedelics have such a promise, but we've got to change it up so it'll fit with health care. And a while back, I realized, I think it's the other way around. Psychedelics are here to teach healthcare, you know, to remind us of all the things that we have wrong about it at this point, the places where we've allowed it to go astray. And there are many good things still.

Yeah. But yeah, it's here to remind us. Psychedolics are here to change the health care system and, you know, help us change the health care system, not the other way. Yeah, it's a brilliant point. You know, and I, sometimes I think that psychedelics begin to begin to show themselves in times of radical change because it helped the same way you take a psychedelic and you can see the world completely different. It's almost like foresight. You know, if you want to get really out there, you can say they're exogenous neurotransmitters that allow you to communicate with the planet and see this language of what's happening. Maybe you can see the gears of the machinery a little bit. You're like, oh, it's what's happening out here, you know? But it is radical change. And isn't it

interesting that we're beginning to see medicine that's outcome based? And we're also seeing jobs and we're also seeing things that are outcome based. Can you do this? Yes. Okay. come over here. Can you not do this? Okay, come over here. There's something else for you. But it's, it's interesting. We got one of our first questions. Lighter Horn comes in and he says, if psychedelics hadn't been demonized in the 60s, the pharmaceutical industry could have possibly played a more positive role in our society. Not too late. That's a pretty deep question. There's a lot there. What do you think, Keith?

I think that, yeah, I mean, I'm not an expert in the history of psychedelics, But as I understand it, in the United States, at least, you know, the Controlled Substance Act, which was in the Richard Nixon administration in 1970, made all the psychedelics, schedule one drugs, illegal like the other, quote, unquote, you know, dangerous drugs and narcotics. And I think it's pretty well established. I mean, this is, there are a lot of conspiracies out there. And sometimes they end up being true. And sometimes they're just, you know, kind of spinning out from.

somewhere, but I think this is just established at this point that, you know, a lot of parts of the government were afraid about the, you know, the effects that LSD primarily might have on society and, you know, amplifying some of the anti-government feelings. And so, but yes, there was a very robust, it's really sad. There was so much research going on with psychedelic before then. and there were multiple pharmaceutical companies that were on track exploring. And I think that the comment might be true that, that, you know, the, you know, a company working, if a company, if a pharmaceutical company is working with a psychedelic medicine,

if they do it, right, it will force them to think about some things that they might not think about if they were working with, another medicine that doesn't have such, you know, potentially even like spiritual effects, right? Like they have to take this into account if they're going to do it, right? And that can bleed over, I hope in a positive way to help them maybe, you know, reflect on how they do business with some of the other aspects of their business. Because, again, I think a lot of the people really want to help and it's complicated. And we all need to work together. I don't want to say I'm sorry about this, but we're one planet.

And, you know, one of these days there's going to be something, whether it's the environment or, you know, or if we did have contact from some, if there is some sort of intelligent civilization out there in the universe, like, you know, we'll be, we'll see why we all need to stick together in an instant, right? Like, we're all in the same thing and we could be up against something. and then our silly little disagreements about, you know, different things about the economy. I mean, gosh, there's so much potential.

I'd like to stay us stick together. And I don't want to see modern science thrown out. But I also really don't see any reason why that's the only, that's not the, there's no reason to limit yourself to merely a, you know, materialistic, scientific perspective on the, universe solely. There is, there are places where that works very well and there, there's always going to be a mystery. And if, if there weren't mysteries, then, you know, maybe this whole, this whole movie would come to an end, you know? I don't know. There's got to be some other mystery for us to go after. It's always going to be some part we don't know, I hope. Yeah. Yeah. It's well put. Excuse me while I take a sip of this colorless, tasteless,

odorless substance. Well done. Yeah, I think so too. I think what we're beginning to see is this upward helical shaking hands of spirituality and science coming together. Like, we need both. Like, and there's room for both there. Like, and with these two things coming together, I think we uncover what is meaningful.

That seems to be something that's left out of the clinical trials is this idea of what's meaningful. And don't even get me started on language, Keith. Like, you know, there's all these words out there that like, I can't decipher them. And I'm ready to make new words. And I think that's what we're on. We're on the cusp of a new frontier. We are finding out how to solve the problems.

And when we get to the root of the problem, it's like a mirror. It's us. Like, we're the problem. Oh, it's crazy to think about. But there's so much on the horizon. And I want to address lighter's comment a moment about the 60s. Like one thing that I think is different from the 60s, lighter, and correct me if I'm wrong, I would love to get your put in the chat.

I would love to see what you think about this. There's no real anti-war movement this time around. And maybe that's because the psychedelic movement is being seated by some of the leaders this time. And they're being in on it. But what's your take on that, Keith? There's really no pushback against the machine, the military machine this time. Yeah, that's a very interesting point. To give a really great answer, I'd have to think about it a little bit.

I mean, I think that, you know, the, it's, gosh, things are so complicated in the world. And there's the world we're living in now, there's so much more information. I don't know. I mean, I've, I'm not, I think that for me, just personally, I would love to see more problems being worked out with. without the need for force. I mean, there are, unfortunately, it's the way that the world works, there's always going to be a need for defense at times. And, you know, fine, I understand that.

But I think that, you know, there is, and in psychedelics, you know, one thing that I think is really beautiful and that I've been trying to understand how I can best support is that there are many women and people of color and people from not from like, you know, high university. It's a place where like, right, I'm a white guy doctor with all these degrees and I can work side by side with a healer who has a complete. They have very similar wisdom, experience credentials. They're just not like the academic ones or the medical ones, right? And it's a place where you could work complimentary

and hand it, you know, side by side and to good effect with psychedelic therapy or spiritual work with psychedelics. And I think that might be a good lesson for, you know, where we need to go to move forward. You know, I'm not, I'm a white guy and I've got a lot of things done. And people often rely myself, you know, society, some of my masculine ability allows us to get grants or funding or contracts or, you know, stay on timelines or push everybody to try to achieve. but there is a real need for the, you know, the feminine impulse in the world. And I, we need to make much more space for that. And it's not either or there, you know, it's the same thing that when you, when you start

to work in with psychedelics and spirituality, there's, right, there's ego dissolution. And then there's like the complete dissolving into the one and loss of everything. And then there's the return to the like the dichotomy. And, you know, certain theories and traditions suggest that, you know, that behind everything, there's just universal consciousness, the singularity, whatever you want to call it. And at some point, there was a breakup into two. And then by definition, you had two different poles. There was polarity, positive, negative, more female, whatever it is.

And, you know, the best. The best place is in the middle of those. It's not either or. One's not right and one's not the other. It's not absolute. Psychedelics show you that these two opposite things, they coexist. And your job is to figure out how to be with that and navigate that conflict and still be able to be successful. And, you know, I think whether it's, you know, whether it's war or famine or whatever it is, that those two, we need both of those to figure these things out.

Yeah. It's their opposite poles of the same magnet, you know, like. And I think you're right. Like that's for most of my audience who have had a psychedelic experience. Like there's this moment when the you or the eye falls away. And you're like, oh, I'm part of this. Maybe I don't come into this world. Maybe I come out of it.

You know, and you start having these revelations like, oh, my God, I was talking to this young lady yesterday. And I can see myself in the way she was doing this thing. Like, the more you can see yourself in the other, the more you realize you're connected. And some of these silly arguments we're having, you know, they're a symptom of something bigger. They're a symptom of the same things that cause us to have addiction. They're a symptom of pain. They're a symptom of loss. They're a symptom of lack of meaning.

And once you realize that, like it really helps you understand how to be the best version of yourself. And maybe that's what psychedelics are doing. It's like, hey, this is how you become the best version of you. And when you do that, you can start repairing your relationships. And not only with people, but with places and ideas. And it's interesting. So we have the no absolute podcast right here. Benjamin George, thanks for hanging out with us.

Incredible guy. Go check out his books. He says, oh, there's something. mystery is still out there to be solved for sure, but we're beginning to build a map to know where we're going. What do you think, Keith? Are we beginning to build a map out there? Yes. And, you know, the idea of mapping consciousness is one that I definitely find appealing. And that's some of, I think that's one of the things that myself and some of my colleagues have been working on in the spiritual realm. Again, we're really just,

just humble students. And from the limited experience that we've had, I think even the greatest expert on the planet in this is just a humble student given the just the vastness and the power of what is out there. But yes, we've been lucky to be able to work with a guy, Dr. Robert Gilbert, who has got a, Vesica Institute. He's a spiritual teacher. And I've been very grateful to him. And I think part of why I never,

I'm not a big podcast listener, to be honest. I think I've told you like all my friends and the spiritual friends always tell me about everybody that's on the podcast. But I finally heard Robert talking on a podcast. And I didn't know it was him. it just kind of clicked in the way. And he's got a PhD in international studies, and he has a very academic approach to how he teaches, and he's very much about sourcing everything and footnotes. And at the same time, he also will tell you he's like,

I'm not the guru. I'm just like a guy. I'm just an ordinary guy trying to figure it out just like all of you, right? He's incredibly humble and very cautious about trying to provide. you know, he does a lot of work to collate information from the past and the current and, I mean, honestly, maybe the future for all I know, puts it together in a package that a modern scientific mind can easily plug into. That's his contribution. He's not making it up. He's not telling you what he, he's not even saying what he thinks, you know, and he wants you to have the

freedom to just take the information, decide for yourself. listen to the information, do some of the practices, see for yourself. And if it resonates, come back. And if not, that's fine. You know, he's not trying to take over the world. And it's been a great time and a blast. And I think, in essence, what we've been doing is trying to work with some of the meditative technology that allows you to learn to, you know, reliably interact with what. know, some people would say the spirit world or spirits or non-physical entities.

For me, I feel like this is just words, like you said, George, right? So my words are going to come from like a sciencey side, right? So it feels like data to me, which some people and data put together in the right way is intelligence. So it feels like, you know, just a sea of consciousness, as they say. I don't know. that's how I experience it. But I think it's what's behind the physical part.

It's a part of what makes us human and alive. And interacting with it and having a sense and some understanding, really realizing that much of it is beyond probably our brain's ability or our mind's ability to grasp, I think has been very helpful to me in finding meaning and trying to direct myself in a, in a way that could be positive for others. I love that, man. It's really well said. I have a thing for maps. And it's such a great way to look at it.

Because having a map implies that you're an explorer on some level. And these psychedelics allow you to grab your compass, maybe pack a little knapsack, get out there, and lucky for you, you have a map. Some people's map may have like a giant squid taking down a boat or something like, hey, stay away from that area over there. know, but these maps that we're making, whether it's through, you know, dialogue, whether it's, whether your map is written in science code or it's written in spirituality code, there's all

these different maps out there for an individual who's willing to go and explore what it is that's wrong for them. And I think of mythologies and maps, but it's such a great metaphor, isn't it? Yes. And what really excites me sometimes is when you see, and this is starting, to happen more frequently, I think, where you'll see something from science, whether it's maybe something from physics or astronomy or biology where they come up with, they have a finding, and it's in very technical jargon, which is suited to that discipline. But then you realize,

wait a second, I think they're describing, what they're describing sounds exactly like what, like the ancient Egyptians were describing with their words, they just had their words and their understanding of it from their perspective. And I think that we're getting, you know, there are some places in science where, again, we're not going, we're not throwing out the new and going back to the old. We're not discounting the old. But there's one, there is something here that we've been trying to figure out all this time. And over history, everybody keeps coming back to it and trying to put it down into words with the words that they have. And scientists are coming to those things as well. And it's a real thing. So they can complement each other. And, you know, the two can help

each other advance. And I do think that, you know, and you see this a lot of people working in physics, if they're not already doing something like meditation, they oftentimes just start it up. And I will, you know, I think maybe I said to you before, but I'll just say I, I was always interested in meditation. I had so many friends who met it. I mean, I lived in a bunch of hippie places. I had a bunch of people doing research on meditation at UCLA, people teaching meditation. I could not meditate at all, except my friends would just be like, you're a lost cause. And, you know, I think finally I now am able to do it.

I don't know. Perhaps it's just a matter of the right time, right place where I needed to mature in some way. But for me, working about a lot of these ideas caused me to come back to the practices and try again. And then, you know, maybe having some understanding. And honestly, that's something that Dr. Gilbert really emphasizes, you know, that you can't, if you really want to work productively in spirituality, you do need an understanding. of the background, the information, the knowledge, the wisdom. And you also need the practices.

And to just focus on one or the other is not going to be as effective as, you know, moving through and understanding the background behind the practice makes the practice more powerful. And then as you do the practice, oftentimes I will come back to things from lectures or readings later and you realize, wow, okay, I didn't catch that the first time, but now I see a subtlety in it that came from the experience in the practice. And it's, you know, people talk about intuition or something. It does feel like it's like more of a deeper, more intuitive, more subtle way of

understanding as opposed to just the first pass where, you know, your brain puts the words and it gets that part of it. And then there's a deeper part that you can learn to dissolve the first layer to. And so I think having those two is essential. Yeah, I 100% agree. We got Clint Kyle's coming in over here. Clint Kyle has the psychedelic Christian podcast for those within the sound of my voice. He's got some great guest and he's an incredible host.

I think he hosted San Francisco psilocybin. Anyways, my friend Clint says, I think there is less targeted emphasis on the topic of war from the psychedelic community because there is currently a conscious resistance to war from an even much broader range of society. That's a great point. What do you think, Keith? Yes. I mean, what I think is that I'm getting the message that I really should think more about, about war. And I mean, this is, I'll be honest with you, the part of what got me working with psychedelics and part of what has driven me to think more about spiritual practices is the, and again, I wasn't really frustrated.

I was doing fine as a doctor, but going one patient at a time, which, by the way, if people who, whether you're a physician or a therapist or a clergy member or just a person who helps another person in need, that is one of the most beautiful things. There's nothing wrong with that. Healing is, right, we talk a lot about healing. Healing is very important. But I need to think more at a higher level and think about how we can make it impact at a higher level. I mean, it is, I mean, honestly, given all the amazing things that we are, we are

creating with our incredible minds, with technology and science, I just really, just quite frankly, as a person, this isn't a professional opinion that I've really, you know, studied, but just as a human, I can't really comprehend how we're still having wars, to be honest, and like conflicts like that and that, you know, there is still like so much conflict about resources and again because we're all in this together and, you know, most of the spiritual traditions emphasize that, you know, not only us as humans, but we all come from the same thing. There's one just global, conscious pool that from which everything, you know, behind this emerges and eventually, we will pass from this life into what, I'm not sure, but whatever is there and perhaps we'll

come back and something else. And, you know, just remembering that just can change your perspective. So fair enough, fine, task taken. I'll get on it. I need to think more about like, you know, global conflict and war, apparently. Yeah, it's interesting. I spoke with Ollie Jin Bush a while back and he was one of the first people that brought this question up to me. And he had mentioned some things about there's an interesting relationship between the veterans and psychedelics. And maybe there's something there, you know, I don't know for sure. But on some level, we spoke earlier about addiction and how addiction treated symptoms. On some level, it almost seems that we're using psychedelics to treat veterans symptoms instead of solving the actual problem. And I don't know how to solve that

problem but you know it's there it's there i was at thank you you reminded me i mean i guess i had been thinking about this to some degree but um i was at a fundraiser and it's it's an amazing cause and i'm so just happy to be a part of trying to support it in a little way but i was at a fundraiser um for one of the initiatives to um increase access to psychedelic therapy for U.S. veterans and several, you know, veterans spoke about their experience. And as you know, probably a lot of the, you know, very high up special forces, highly trained combat people have been the ones who have been leading the charge. And part of that, I think, is that's just their nature. That's what they did in war. And that's what they're doing outside of war. And God bless them for that.

And then also, you know, they were in positions where some of the more really like horrendously, you know, traumatic things occurred. And I remember thinking that, you know, yes, we should try to do whatever, whatever is necessary. And early, you don't become a doctor in the United States for the most part without working at a Veterans Administration Hospital. And so in training in medical school and residency, I spent a fair amount of time at VA hospitals and I actually worked for the VA for a few years at the start. And so I would support anything to help our veterans. But it did dawn on me. I was sitting there thinking like, better would be we just don't send these people into these places, right?

Like they were sent by us. Yeah. We're part of it. Yeah. All of us. In this case, Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's. There's anywhere in the other ones in the future. And we sent them there on our behalf to do this.

And, you know, we all have a wound from that at some level. This is just, unfortunately, more acute and, you know, severe. And I, yeah, the best way to help them would be, you know, to find ways to not send people, those people into those places any more. more for everyone involved. Yeah, I'm reminded of that great quote from James Joyce and Ulysses that says, Nightmare is the history. I'm sorry, history is the nightmare from which I'm trying to awaken.

Right? It seems like that on a lot of levels. Like maybe we are waking up. Maybe we're realizing that these particular things that are supported by us happening across the world to steal resources or to do something, it's having a giant effect on us. What we do over there is affecting us over here. When you start thinking that, like, oh, well, maybe we should all stop that on some level.

Maybe that's what's happening. We talk about this big ship that's happening. Maybe that's part of it. I hope so. I hope so. And I'm just trying to, you know, as best as possible, work on myself to try to be, you know, try to be grounded and stable and, you know, work on my own energy to, try to, you know, be reliable and responsible so that whatever challenges are in store,

you know, hopefully will be prepared. And also just to try to, you know, create, I think it's any time that you're doing something positive, it's putting that energy into the collective and, and it doesn't erase, but, you know, it may counterbalance some of the other forces, I hope. And, you know, we're, again, like, I'm not, I'm just a student, but, but we are trying to, to, you know, reach out and connect with other people who are on the spiritual path, who want to try to, you know, work together to, to strengthen their own energy and be in a position to try to be of service and, you know, looking for other allies to align with and, and to learn from. Because I think that, that, you know, we all have a responsibility to try to help. Yeah. It's interesting. I agree 100%.

And I think each one of us becoming the best version of us has radical changes, radical shifts in relationships and society. Yeah. It's interesting to think about it. Sometimes I wonder, Keith, you know, if history, if the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant, behavior. We saw some crazy stuff in the 60s on that last wave, whether it was the second wave or the third wave. I guess it would be the second wave if you asked Paul Austin because this is the third wave. But if you look at what happened, we saw some interesting things like Art Link Letter's daughter jumping out of a window. We saw stuff like Charles Manson. We saw stuff like the Kool-Aid and people

moving to South America. And if you read Jules Evans, Jules Evans newsletter about what's happening in Brazil and Santo Dime. Like, we're, we definitely can't escape some bad behavior. Do you think the bad behavior that may happen in the future would warrant trying to put psychedelics back in a bottle? That's an excellent question. And thankfully, sometimes I think, boy, that, that's above my pay grade and probably not in trouble figuring that out.

But, but I do think that, I mean, here's, I don't claim to be. in charge of psychedelics and I don't think I'd have all figured out but my personal take on on that is relates very well with some of the work we're doing in the spiritual realm because I do think that there are I mean there are medical risks there are psychiatric risk there's spiritual risk to taking psychedelics but there's also just the risk of going too far into the spiritual realm the ether, right? Like, I feel like the point of these journeys is, is to come back and take whatever you can from the experience. You know, integration is one thing. Of course, that's important, but beyond that, to apply it. And so, you know, Dr. Gilbert had formulated this framework that,

again, it's really like bringing together a lot of stuff. There's nothing that he invented here, but I think he's got such an act for putting it into a good conceptual framework that can then guide how you work with it. And it's about, you know, responding to you that people are using psychedelics all the time. A lot of people repeatedly, one going from one to the other, there's an incredible emphasis on healing, which again is beautiful and necessary. But at some point, you know, if you get healed enough, you should come back here and get to work. You know, we're here to do work to make the place a better place. And healing is for spiritual development, healing is necessary. But it's not, it shouldn't be the endpoint for everyone.

So he's laid out four phases of spiritual development that you could apply psychedelics to. And the first is healing. The second is spiritual activation. the third is stabilization after the activation. And the last is application of your expanded consciousness or your newfound skills and abilities to be of service. And so, you know, for spiritual development, if there is significant trauma or emotional baggage, so to speak,

it's necessary to address that. But at some point, you can move on to activation. And in this model, it's low, lower. low to moderate doses of psychedelics. And frankly, it's not about the psychedelic. It's about the meditative practices. And the psychedelic just makes it easier for you to perceive some of the so-called subtle energies, which are subtle at first.

It makes it easier for you to perceive those and work with them to structure your energy and consciousness to get to a higher plane. And really, so it is kind of putting the brakes on some of the higher dose or frequent use of psychedelics. It's not leaning on psychedelics are not doing the activating. The spiritual practices are the psychedelics are the catalyst for the activation. And that's not to say that, that, you know, shamanic, I mean, that's critically important and incredibly, you know, insightful and beautiful. But it's, it's something that you probably wouldn't be going to all the time on a weekly basis, you know, it's, you need to leave some time in between. So, so yeah, I think that,

that I don't want to see it be put back into a container. We need to be responsible as we should with all substances, but in particular with psychedelics, because again, we've learned from the, the elders of the past, they really are sacred. Yeah. It's such a slippery slope. Like, what's your take on certification, it seems like there's so much certification out there right now. Like, you could get certified for this. Get this one. Get that one. There's almost like a McDonald's of transformation out there. If you look at the fight, you could probably find that. Yeah. I mean, at one level, it's, it's, I understand, right? I'm, so I get it in a position, right? So I had to go to school and then I have to get a license and someone wants to see my

certifications. But that's a, you know, that for better or for worse, we could criticize medicine. I'd be happy to hear criticisms, but it's pretty advanced at this point. It's a mature industry. So I think that what's going to happen, I mean, if you look at the psychedelic pharmaceutical companies, what you see happening is that there were a lot of companies at the start, and it was headed in all directions, and it's starting to get narrowed down, and a few of the ones that have staying power are sticking around. And I think, that same thing will happen with training and certification. Eventually, people will start to agree that these are the core essentials,

and there'll be a few places that do it really well and end up. So at the moment, I'm very enthusiastic and happy to see people that want to formalize their education and learning. But like you said, there is not one certification that is clearly better, and it's hard to really judge some of them. And I think it'll be very important. You know, I'm a doctor and I'm working on the medical model with psychedelics. So I don't want to see.

I think there's value there. But I think that there also has to be acknowledgement that there are, particularly at the moment, there are people who are not clinicians who have very important experience and wisdom using psychedelics, that they need to be acknowledged and there needs to be a pathway for them to be able to work, right? Having this underground, there's really nothing good about it being underground. That would be the main thing, I'd say. You know, so if we just make sort of, if you just make a path for certain people like doctors and therapists to not be underground and other people don't have a path, they'll stay underground

because this is their work. They're, this is their thing. What are they going to do, right? So we need paths. for them and we can both learn from each other and you know there are certain things about being a doctor like informed consent and you know procedures for emergencies and you know boundaries that we get trained on these things we take it's second nature for me I know these I would I behave as a doctor the way I've trained and you know some of those things like some boundaries are a little different for psychedelic

therapy than for like internal medicine but at the same same time where things have often gone astray with psychedelics in the underground is when there isn't proper informed consent and boundaries are just really fluid. And I see people working in the underground who will go unnamed because, you know, it's underground. But I see some people who who basically are doing what they would do if it was a background. They have very, very good precautions, good ethics, good boundaries, you know, they're doing best practices and they're ready to be, you know, not the underground, the law changes. And then there are a lot of places that really need to get their act together and like talk to someone who has, you know, you're taking, it's a huge

responsibility to have someone to, you know, to say that you will be responsible for them in the psychedelics base. Now, also, I think that, you know, a healthy, educated adult with good intentions could use psychedelics without a doctor. There's no, I don't think it needs to be a doctor thing, right? So we need all of these paths, all of these, the, right, it's not just a medical thing. The regulations need to be able to appreciate all the different ways that people may use and engage with psychedelics and have a structure that allows them to have the best chance to do it safely, responsibly, and productively. That is really, really well said.

There's so many avenues for change, for help, for health, and it was a great way to put it out there. And it explains why we're in the position we're in right now. Like, there is a lot to untangle there. There's a lot of routes of administration that people can follow in order to become the best version of themselves. And I do. I think we're getting there. It's just, it's a little bit messy going forward. And it should be. This is kind of a new way to do it. And I think we have a lot of the right people that are standing up and fighting, that are having their voices heard, that are doing best practices. And it'd be naive to think that there wouldn't be bumps in the road along the way. But I think

we're moving in the right direction. I hope so. And, you know, the, I want, what I don't want to see happen is for the people who are working with psychedelics, for us to get fractured and be fighting against each other. There's enough work for us to do, you know, educating other people about this. We, you know, we're never going to, we don't have to be fully united and agree on everything. And as a matter of fact, I want dissenting voices within the psychedelic community coming at the medical people and giving us, you know, keeping us honest and giving us, feedback, that is going to just drive us to be better. I welcome that. But if it goes too far, right, we need to all make sure that as best as possible we're rowing in the same direction

towards safe, responsible, helpful use of psychedelics and not like get caught up fighting each other. But we also, you know, can give each other constructive criticism that I think that we're all adults and that would be fine as well. Yeah. There's a lot of interesting avenues that every time I look there's something new. I was speaking recently with a gentleman in the Sacred Valley named Luke Jensen. And he's been doing some interesting work on like brain patterns and like the brain waves and, you know, able to match up certain sort of, you know, almost neural, not exactly neural pathways, but he's been able to show a lot of cool things that are happening simultaneously in the brain.

Is that something that we can think about moving forward as seeing what's happening in the brain and understanding how that might be causing a certain behavior? Yeah, I think that it's, I think the main thing that I think about any of these research efforts with psychedelics is that what's amazing about psychedelics is it engages at so many different levels. Inherently to study something, you're going to have to say, well, we're never going to be able to study, at least at the moment, who knows, but it's very difficult to study all of them simultaneously. So there is some inherent limitation of like just putting, you know, the microscope on one aspect with like for the brain, for example. Right. But that's just how how a scientific experiment works. Again, it's an experiment.

It's a, it's a model of what's really happening. And it's controlled. You have to control the, the universe that you're looking at. The error happens was when we say, well, okay, we found out that. this happens in the brain with psychedelics, and therefore that explains everything about psychedelics, that no other domain has any relevance for psychedelics. That just doesn't make sense. So despite the fact that I'm very interested in the neurobiology of psychedelics and the brain, I'm probably more interested in the stuff we can't study, in the subjective,

in the spiritual and the mystical, the subjective experience. But I think it's very valuable to understand what happens. And predicting, it's been hard to predict like something meaningful or practical. Yeah. Like how much information do you need to know about the brain to advise someone, to help someone have a productive psychedelic experience? I mean, we do, you do. pretty well without brain imaging for the most part at the moment. Is it conceivable that there

could be some technology that takes the psychedelic experience beyond what we even have now that augments it or makes it deeper or more powerful? Maybe that would be amazing. But I'm all for, I definitely, both just I love it, love hearing about it. I think it's just like it's an inherently human activity to seek knowledge, right? So basic science, understanding what happens in the brain with psychedelics, it does not matter to me if it has a practical implication in the immediate. It's worth knowing. It's fascinating.

That is, we need, we want to know, we want, we need to know as humans. And so I'm very excited to see, because imaging technology is getting a lot better. And there are, you know, there are ways to scan people, not even with EEG, but beyond, with imaging while they're, like, you know, having a psychedelic trip there. It's like, you know, caps and helmets that people can wear now. It's, it's amazing. Yeah, it really is amazing. It's, one of the things I really love about you, Keith, is you are always talking to so many amazing people. Like, if I go to your LinkedIn page, I'm like, who is Keith talking to?

And I see all these people, and I'm like, I'm going to go look at that person. I'm going to look at that person. Like, how do you, like, is it an insatiable source of curiosity? And can you tell us about some of the other people with whom you've been, you've been contacting with and are excited about their work? Oh, my gosh. Well, I don't think I'm not, I'm not doing anything there, you know, consciously. I think it's like, like most things, right?

I mean, what I'm trying to do is just be myself. And try to, every day, try to be, you know, understand myself a little bit better and be a little better and try to be open. And so, you know, when we will all attract whatever we attract based on where we're at, right? So I think maybe that just attracts certain people. But yeah, I mean, oh gosh, off the time I had, I don't know. I don't want to say like what is the way. But I will tell you, there are so many amazing people doing things. And I think that the thing that has really inspired me is that there are so many women who are taking a leadership role in the spiritual realm and really like using their voice, their own unique voice.

in a very powerful way and not stepping forward in a very, you know, a dignified and methodical way. But at the same time, you know, really like holding their ground with a voice in it and a vision and impulse that is, you know, feminine and I have so much admirable. and respect for them. And it just honestly, for me, whether it's LinkedIn or any of the other social networking platforms,

I get so much just energy, like a rejuvenation of inspiration and energy from seeing what people are doing and just getting a little bit of their energy indirectly from seeing their posts. posts and hearing how they talk and seeing how they're just like they're doing it, you know. Yeah. They're not sitting around. They're out there.

They're just going for it. They're surrendering to the, you know, they're letting go and surrendering to the desire to try to just like bolt out and be helpful. And so I'm just really humbled and I admire how many women are out there really like just working hard. to lead in that area. Yeah, it's amazing to see how many people are out there, especially I talked to Abigail a couple days ago, maybe about a week ago, and she's just crushing all these papers, you know,

putting out all this incredible content, and it's so awesome to get to see how many young people are out there and older people too that are in this field. It seems like psychedelics is really exploding and like there's all these papers out there. there's all this research going on. Is there something recently that, like, that you've had your eye on? Hmm. Well, I think that not a specific research paper doesn't come to mind,

but I think that the, I would like to see more applying of the, and this is something that is on my to-do list personally, and not to like use the podcast as a plug. Yeah. When it comes to research like this, there's not, we're not going to get a government grant to do this. No pharmaceutical company is going to pay for it. So if there's any benefactor out there that wants to support something like this, you know,

I think that like you said, there's so much good scientific work with like the biological aspects of psychedelics going now. but I would like to see, you know, a methodical more. There is a lot of this, but a methodical scientific exploration of the, you know, more of the consciousness and the subjective side of the psychedelic experience. And the place where it comes up most of the time these days is this argument about whether the subjective experience, the psychedelic experience, is necessary for the And, you know, we're going to see there are companies, and at first I wasn't interested in this,

but now I'm kind of intrigued. There are companies that are taking psilocybin or LSD or any of the psychedelics, and they are there trying to get the psychedelic experience out of it, but leave the biological effect. And guess what? I think that it's going to work in some ways. You may have an antidepressant derived from DMT that does not have a psychedelic experience. Now, I think it'll be really interesting to see, like, you know, will there be some spiritual effects? Like, honestly, you might not have the trip, but it could still, like, connect you, you know, imperceptibly to what some spiritual activity. And after the fact, and then I think, well, maybe that's worse.

Like, if you didn't even realize you were connecting to the spiritual plane, and then later, you were having all these experiences and thoughts that you should be, quote, integrating, but you didn't know you needed to integrate her because you didn't actually know you had the experience. That could be a problem. But on the other hand, you know, having new medications to help with depression, I'm all for if they can be safe, they don't have be psychedelic. But I don't think it, though, the, right, again, that's the medical model saying, hey, we're willing to study the subjective or spiritual effects of psychedelics only if they are part of why they treat depression.

But I don't, I think that's short-sighted. And I mean, it's just fascinating. And there are so many incredible potential things that are great for the world that could come from the subjective or psychedelic experience that aren't just therapeutic. And so I'd like to see more investigation of, you know, of the spiritual side of psychedelic. Alex, using as best scientific method as we can. It doesn't have to be with placebo. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a completely materialistic hypothesis.

But, you know, using, having controlled science where there's good measurement as best as possible, developing new tools or sensors for these things, you know, I think that that is, that's a, that's, that's something that would be amazing for the future. Yeah, I love that. I would love to. I'm fascinated by that experiment too. I've read some interesting stuff that says that, or maybe I'm,

sometimes I think that the trip, like people are, well, they want to take the trip out of the drug because they don't want to have the bad trip or the crazy spiritual business. visions or like, ah, they're freaking out or clinging your fills. Like, they don't want that stuff. But in my opinion, I'm not a doctor.

I feel like I land in the camp of like that part is necessary. Like that is your brain rewiring itself in real time. Like that's where the change is happening. And you're acting all crazy. And you're seeing these things. Your brain is changing. Like it's the neuroplasticity happening in real time, I think, right there. But that doesn't mean that they might be able to find a little bit for a stroke patient that can't talk anymore.

Yeah. You know, like I can see benefits for both. I'm fascinated about the research as well. I think there's possibly benefits for both. But I think we said before when we were talking at the time that, like for me, like, you know, the crazy part, that's what draws me to psychedelic. Yeah. Or second-ed-alk experience, I'm like, yeah, push the boundary.

Let's go. How crazy can it get, right? How much we use the term ontologic shock, right? Like, what I am desiring, what I need and what I've needed and what I've needed and what I need in my life is ontologic shock, right? Yeah. But too much ontologic shock and you fall apart, you're completely ungrounded. You may have, lose all sense of reality.

Yeah. We might end up with what might appear like schizophrenia are apparently. Yeah. Right. But in the right, and this is why I think this model of using psychedelics for spiritual activation appeals to me, too, that, you know, the, the work beforehand, we do preparation to tell people about the psychedelic experience, but, you know, this is not very realistic for, for implementing in clinics because things cost

money. But if someone asked me, I would say, if you want a really good experience with psychedelics, you know, pick up a spiritual practice first and do that for, maybe a year or more, or really do some spiritual practice first. Clarify your sense. Ask yourself some of these questions about reality beforehand without the drugs so that you're prepared when the drugs like really show you what might be out there you have some framework and some structure with which you can interpret right and one of our patients in one of the studies which happened to be with lSD kept asking us at some point during the session is this normal is this normal i was i was not she was fine and i mean so i wasn't and i wanted to reiterate

sure her. So, you know, but at the same time, I was like, well, none of this is normal. It's absolutely abnormal experience, but it's normal for LSD and there's no reason to believe that you're in danger. This is what we would expect, but, but it's not normal, right? But so if you, if you don't have any framework or structure or you're in a fragile place or your framework is often, you know, then that ontologic shock could be really damaging. But for me, it like kicks the doors and like push push the fences back on conscious distance to expand the space like that's what I what I desire but that may not be the right thing for a fragile depressed patient so having some other options for that makes a lot of sense to me as well yeah it kind of begs the question

you know when you read some accounts of some different uses from different native populations like the shaman would take it and then he would diagnose the problem and I think that the way you're talking now, like you like the ontological shock. So therefore, you have some empathy with someone who's like, is this normal? Like, you kind of understand what they're going through. Like, you've had the experience. Thus, you're able to maybe help walk someone through that experience. And that's radically different from the Western medicine. Like, no one's taking my wife's chemo medicine if they don't have cancer. You know, it's, it's different. Yeah, maybe they should. I mean, that would be a tall order. Be a tolerated. Yeah. But yeah, I mean,

it is i often think about the the the shaman model right where um right so the and again i i am not i am just a student of all this and um i'm very cautious and um i find meditation to be you know really give me a lot of what i need for the um you know that that i might get from a psychedelic i can get a lot of that from meditation at this point. But in that model, right, we have people who are just going and taking psychedelics themselves to try to find answers. And that isn't actually the model that some of the indigenous cultures use, right? They would have a very special person who may have been, you know, that ability as a shaman may have been in their family for generations. There are many things in the literature about, you know, the shaman person really not wanting to have that role because it's such

a responsibility. And they're so, they're kind of isolated in some, as I understand it, in some societies, the shaman is kind of isolated because they have these abilities and it's hard for them, the other people in the, to relate to them. So that's the person who's taking the medicine and going there, like you said, in coming back to provide an answer to the person, right? The person isn't doing it themselves. But we're like, you know, yeah, I can be a shaman. I can be the shaman and the seeker at the same time because, hey, I can do everything right in. And that's clearly not the case. I'm not a shaman. I have no, I don't have any desire or interest, and I'll never be. That's just not my role. And, you know, I would, if I, if a shaman were,

present and offered to journey on my behalf to bring back something that might help me, I would be incredibly honored and grateful. But, you know, that's not what I'm going to do. Yeah, it's an interesting concept. I remember McKenna talks about in one of his millions of lectures about the goal can be for you to sail out under the dark abyss and throw down your net in the storm and hopefully bring something back, you know, but that's, it's tough to do because sometimes you find yourself so far up that you can't talk. Maybe you think your God, like the world is changing or in a

different dimension. You're living five different lifetimes. It's difficult to bring things back, but sometimes just going there, you bring it back from residue, right? Yeah, and even I agree entirely. And I was speaking with someone who said this very thing also the other day that, you know, know, right? Like, and I've had some experiences around like, well, what am I supposed, what do I do with this? What practical? What can I bring back in? And I think really, there's nothing concrete to bring it. The point is just to, to be able to realize that that exists, that the, the, the container of what you believe can exist is much wider than what we, we get, you know, from just the rational mind. And so just like having firsthand experience kind of forces it on you to acknowledge,

wow, like it's out there, that exists. That might be it. But how many times do you need to see it to believe it? Like not too many. And I heard, yeah, and, you know, Transfer Ken is amazing. And I read stuff, I would read stuff about him nonstop. And, you know, I don't know that he really practiced what he preached here, but someone sent me, and I heard a little snippet of him saying something to the effect of, he said, yeah, I asked my friend, what's your favorite psychedelic? And my friend said, DMT, and then I said, oh, when did you last use it? And the friends said, 1967. I'm still integrated for an experience. And I don't write. And so I think that sometimes, like, particularly people who have experiences with that, that reality from other ways, whether it's meditation

or they just inherently had, you know, an ability to appreciate and understand that, or perhaps something in their upbringing or whatever it is, right? They'll be like, well, yeah, you know, I did that and it was interesting, but I mean, I don't really feel called to go back or, but maybe again in the future, like, yeah, I don't, I don't need, I know how to get there, right? But sometimes there are cases where you're just, you know, particularly the rational mind is so structured that it can be useful to kind of try to break through with psychedelics. And then the path, the crumbs are there then afterwards, you know, oftentimes I think that thoughtful people will begin to think, you know, I'm not sure. I could probably be more productive without the medicine most of the time and I don't need to go there. But then there are, if there's a community or, you know, a group of people and they're getting together and it's, then it's part of the ceremony or ritual and everyone's supporting, then that's a beautiful thing.

But, you know, that's a little bit different than just like going there to get an answer. Plus, like, I don't really think that the language, whatever the language or the data, whatever format the data is out there, it's this brain. I can't, I don't have a decoder key. for it, to be honest. I don't have a decoder key. I think, like, what you bring back, that's why a lot of times, you know, integration and giving space and time afterwards, to the extent that I have learned things, it often comes later, and it's a very, like, kind of subtle in the background thing that kind of creeps up on you, and you sort of see, like, a shift coming like this. I don't have so much of the, you know, and I have some colleagues and friends who are very critical of psychedelics

and say that when people come out of these things with like this big idea, you know, that a lot of it's, it's what they would call like the astral, the lower astral space that that's as far as they went, that they went into their own emotions and there's a bunch of stuff in there and that, you know, they thought that it was God speaking to them, but it's really their, a bunch of their emotional baggage that's just there. And so coming back and thinking that, that's the word of God and trying to put it into play can be can be hazardous so yeah i think caution and time don't don't jump to conclusions and don't run off half cocked um but i don't really know i don't know where you go everyone probably goes a different place i have no idea i don't have any

tools you ask me to measure blood pressure i know how to do it you ask me to measure like where someone goes in the psychedelic space i have no no measurement tool to do it i can just take, you know, at face value, the words, which like we've said are completely, probably completely inadequate to capture it. Just take those words at face value and, and appreciate that, you know, they had the courage to do it and be grateful that they're willing to share something so personal because it makes, you know, it's a, it's an incredible experience to hear about these things. Yeah. That was really, really well said. And I do think it speaks to the the idea of, you know, it reminds me of. It reminds me of, um, the gospel of Thomas where he

had to like touch the wound of Christ. You know, some people hear about psychedelics and like, I'll never do that. Some people are like, I can't wait to do that, you know. And it's, people do make crazy decisions sometimes. Like, I know I have come out of them and been like, okay, this is what I got to do. Like, how do you know that? I've spoken to some people that immediately go and quit their job or maybe they're going to get a divorce or something like, It's probably a good idea to take some time and reflect a little bit. A long time ago, before I was working with psychedelics professionally, when I was doing research at UCLA, we were at a meeting and some colleagues at another university were really good researchers

and really smart and very ethical. They did a study and they gave a drug. It wasn't psilocybin, but it had some psychedelic effects to patients. And it was just a science study where they were going to have them go into the scanner and they scanned their brain. And then they had some follow-up questions where they asked people later. They called him up on the phone. And I think it was maybe the second person. The study got shut down after the second patient because they called the,

they tried to get the follow up from the second patient. They called around and they couldn't find the guy. And then they were like, wow, gosh, I'm more worried. But then they ended up talking to some relatives. And they said, oh, yeah, he came back. And then he was feeling great. And he quit his job and he moved back to like to Puerto Rico. And that was it.

And they were like, whoa. Maybe we should be telling people, you know, hey, one thing that might happen is you may come out of this and be like, hey, this is a great. Maybe it was. Maybe that was what he was thinking about for a long time. And he was like, I just need some activation to do. I know it's the way thing. And maybe it was a beautiful thing. Or maybe it wasn't.

And maybe six months later, he was like, dude, what am I doing here? What did I do? I like, right? But so people should be aware. change, I just said this morning to a patient, you know, everyone comes to our clinic and they want to change. That is the universal thing. There's something in their life that they want to change, depression, alcoholism, whatever

it is. And we want to help them change. And psychedelics can help them change. But you have to realize that real change, it's sometimes messy, it's difficult. It impacts the people around you. They may think they want you to change and they probably do, but they're kind of used to how things are and they don't realize, oh, maybe I got to change with them if I want to still be around, right? And so, you know, it's a big, it's a big responsibility to take on, take on that

that change process for real. Yeah, it's huge. It changes everything. It's interesting that you talk about, like, you have a lot of experience in, in, with the retreats and working with people. How have you seen that change over the last few years and how do you envision this whole center changing in the future? or do you? Well, that's a good. I've really gotten to the point where things are changing so fast that I'm, I'm pretty, you know, I've, and I'm getting older too and maybe a bit wiser, possibly, but, you know, I've surrendered to some degree and I think I'm just have to remember some, you know, core principles and values and we're going to ride that wave. But I do think that,

you know, I hope that there will be changes that legally in different places that make it easier for, you know, safe and responsible access. I think that, you know, that retreats are amazing. I love to go on a retreat. We all need a place to, like, unplug and get some perspective. perspective indifference. But, you know, again, I don't know about the wisdom of, you know, I don't think that one psychedelic retreat is going to solve everyone's problems and transform their life magically. I mean, there are stories of people who have had that happen, but anything could happen. So I think that eventually in the United States, a psychedelic medicine is going to get FDA approval and whether it's psilocybin, LSD, or MDMA, I'm not entirely sure which one gets there first. I think that'll be a big change.

And I hope that we can find ways to work together and support all these different parts of this sector and have a medical lane and a non-medical lane that are equal. And I think also, here's maybe this. might be the most useful thing that I have to say about this from my experience, which is that take, we haven't talked about ketamine, but ketamine can be used to treat depression, and it can be used as a medical treatment where they basically just either sprayed in your nose or give you an IV infusion, or you can use it the way we do in a psychedelic therapy, ketamine-assisted psychotherapy paradigm. And actually, if someone gets better just getting an infusion or a nasal

spread, that's fine with me. I want them to get better. But our orientation is towards the psychedelic model. And but one thing for sure, one thing that I consciously avoided doing was putting all my eggs in it. Like there are things called ketamine clinics and there probably should not be a ketamine clinic, you know. I don't think it's a good idea. So like if you, if your entire, there are some really good psychedelic retreats out there. There are some really good ones, I think. I mean, I think Beckley is good. And there are others.

And I don't know all of the good ones, but just as one example, right? But like if you're only, if all of your financial livelihood and your heart and soul is wrapped up into one thing, then you start to just see that as the answer for everyone, whether it really is or isn't. So I've tried very hard to remain a general doctor. And one of the things we do is psychedelics. And one of the things we do is ketamine. And we also have psychotherapy.

And we also do medication management. And we also refer people for other treatments, both Western and complimentary or non-traditional. Right. So that I don't feel a pressure to give everyone ketamine because ketamine is not right for everyone. If that's your only way to keep the lights on, though, you start to feel pressure. They're like, well, we need to do a certain number of people. No, what we're here to do is help people with whatever tools and ketamine is one tool. So whatever it is, I like the idea of, you know, being diversified and not like just being a factory, a psychedelic dispensing factory.

That doesn't, I don't think that's going to be good for anyone. Yeah, that's a great point. It makes a lot of sense to see it that way. The old adage of to the guy with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. right? Yeah, it's a day. Yes. Do you think like...

Yeah, it's true. It's one of the things I'm hopeful to see in the future is sort of a liberalization to the point where, you know, I would love for there to be like a legal sort of new Eucinian mysteries. You know, and I live up here by the wineries now. And I can imagine where like, you know, a group of people came up and they shared like a sacrament,

whether it's in a drink or whatever, and then you watch this incredible play happen in front of you. And then, you know, do you think it will get to a point where, you know, if things do become more liberalized, maybe you have like a Beckley brand, like Beckley does this one, they do they have a looseist? But do you think we'll ever liberalize to the point where we can see it in,

not only an optimizational, but in a recreational setting? This is just my personal opinion. I'm not professionally, you know, trained enough to answer this professionally. but from what I understand, we often think that the law dictates what people do, but usually the law follows, if it's done right, the law follows the general norms as they evolve in a given community or society. And so the just straight out fact is that for better or for worse, a lot of people are using psychedelics currently.

And so the idea that psychedelics are scheduled one, in the United States at least, that there's Schedule I narcotics that are categorically absolutely illegal in all circumstances has become very far from the reality of what the average person perceives. Now, there are still people who, you know, have concerns about psychedelics and probably some people that still think it should be illegal. And I don't think we should discount their concerns. We should listen to them because there's something there too. But the law just, it needs to change. Because it's not good to have so many people doing these things that are, that could be perfect, done perfectly responsibly and legally. And the difference is just that, you know, by letter of the law, it's illegal. So I think that it has to change.

And then the challenge is going to be, you know, psychedelics are so diverse. You can't pigeonhole psychedelics. I try to like get a handle on it. There's like another aspect. So having having a structure that like we said earlier can account for all the different varied and beautiful ways that psychedelics could be used, as well as the ways that you could get into deep water or trouble through those different paths is going to be a challenge. And I'm not an expert on this, but actually, at least initially, Colorado in the United States,

their law came into effect in January, and they had a variety of different pathways for people to get certified to be able to, you know, facilitate or assist people. And it was not just, there was a clinician path and a non-clination path. And there were a lot of ways that people, it wasn't limited to, you know, therapy centers. Now, they actually, apparently, there have been some last-minute changes that are trying to narrow access some in Colorado. And, you know, it's up to Colorans. They're free to decide what they want to do in their state. But, you know, if you just, again, like if you just say, okay, it's legal, but you have to go.

to a clinic and pay someone X amount of money. Some people are just going to do it anyway on their own. Better would be acknowledged that that would be an unintended consequence of putting that restriction and provide a path for the right people, right? And then have some way so that people can find their way to the right place. Some people should do it with a doctor at a clinic. People are fine to do it on their own at home, give people education, and then maybe a little bit of assistance in the system so that they can sort themselves or someone can help them sort

themselves to the right place at the right time. I would love to see that. I hope that that's come what will come. But it's going to be a challenge. Yeah. It might take some day glow school buses to get out there on the road and some music festivals, you know, interesting. Yeah. I mean, George, it's, well, first of all, if that sign me up, I'm ready to go. me, I mean, I've lived in Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York City. So, you know, all three places there's been plenty of cool activity to get involved in. So I'm no stranger to that, and I'd be all for it. But I also think that, you know, I think it's that I actually don't think that this is the agenda of people who are advocating for change in the legal status of psychedelics.

I don't think most of the people I know who are. working at the very level how they want to help people they they don't want to force psychedelics on to everyone but you know I think it would be fair to say that you should be free to just not use psychedelics ignore it shouldn't be like in everybody's face right like people will come to it when they're ready at the right time if we just like you know I don't know what I'm doing on Lee I'm not doing anything on LinkedIn I'm just trying to take a breath and be present and be there. And if you do that, good things will hopefully come. And so if we create a good structure for psychedelics, when it's the right time, people will know where we'll have a place where they can go

to find out how to do it safely and responsibly and get support. But, you know, I don't have any it's not the number one most important issue for the government. I mean, what is? There's so many, right? They're all important. So. I don't want, I don't have any, I don't want to push it on people either. And people who have concerns or questions, I'm happy to, you know, I try to answer them patiently. You know, there are very reasonable questions that people can ask. So we shouldn't just like, like, shout them down either and be like, come on. It's just amazing.

It's all good. You know, it's not going to get us there either. Yeah. I think it's taking its natural course and we'll see, we'll see what we'll see. And it's let it go. don't put, just stay out of the way and it's going to take care of itself. It'll find the right place for now. And then in the future, it'll evolve and find the right place as well.

Yeah, I agree. Keith, fascinating, my friend. I love talking to you. This has been really, really awesome conversation. And I hope it's the first of many. But let's say someone's listening to this right now and they're like, so Keith works at, how does someone, if they're interested in what we're talking about, how do they learn more about you and what's your,

doing and how to get a hold of you and where they can find you and well you can as you said you can look for me on linked in it's not the like coolest platform it's kind of geeky but but yeah if you like just hit me up on linkedin that's fine and then my professional work is that like you said the treatment and research and psychedelic center and the website is pacific tripacep dot org pacific trip and then our spiritual work is through, I think you mentioned, Skyfire Retreats, and that's Skyfire, S-K-Y-F-I-R-E-R-E-R-E-R-E-R-Treats. And you can contact us through either of those. And like, let's say someone, is there certain particularities people would contact you for one or the other, or what are people coming to you for?

Yeah. So professionally, the number one thing that we are. is clinical trials of psychedelics at the moment for depression and very soon for anxiety. So if someone's depressed or anxious and they are interested in a clinical trial of a psychedelic, the Pacifictrip.org website has a place where you can request information, screen for it, potentially enroll. And then we also have myself. I'm a physician.

And then we have several therapists who, if you're in Los Angeles area, we do ketamine assisted psychotherapy for patients. And then the retreat website at the moment is pretty much oriented towards the psychedelics for spiritual activation model and working with Dr. Gilbert from the Vesik Institute. And we have a retreat that is, people can apply if they want. It's not too late. That's happening in April where we will hopefully gather with some other like-minded folks in and put some of these. it's the spiritual practices with low doses of psilocybin into practice and see if we can, you know, continue to develop spiritually as a group. Yeah, there's no doubt about it.

Well, I'm very thankful for your time. And anybody within the sound of my voice, go down to the show notes. All the links will be down there. Reach out to Keith. He's an amazing human being. And that's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you have a biblical day. Keith, stay with me afterwards.

I got a few things I want to tell you. But to everybody else, so stoked you were here. Thank you, Clint. Thank you everybody for LIDAR, Ben. Thanks everybody for hanging out and talking to us. That's all we got, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha. Thank you.