TrueLife - Rhea Wong - Get That Money, Honey!

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/www.rheawong.comhttps://www.rheawong.com/podcast/https://join.rheawong.com/87e59c7a/Rhea helps nonprofits raise more money. Though she has deep experience with institutional, corporate and event fund-raising, she is passionate about major individual donors and helping organizations to establish individual giving programs. She has raised millions of dollars in private philanthropy and is passionate about building the next generation of fundraising leaders.She has become a leader in the New York nonprofit community and is a frequent educational commentator in the media. She has been recognized with the SmartCEO Brava Award in 2015 and NY Nonprofit Media’s 40 under 40 in 2017. For more information about Rhea, please see her LinkedIn Profile here.Rhea lives in Brooklyn with her husband and the World's Most Spoiled Dog Stevie Wonderdog. When she is not raising money for causes she loves, she can be found hosting her podcast Nonprofit Lowdown or onstage as a newbie stand-up comedian in downtown Brooklyn. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Welcome to the True Life podcast. We are here with an amazing young woman. The lovely Ria Wong, she's written a book called Get That Money, Honey, Guide to Raising More Money for Your Non-Profit. Ria, you were multi-talented.

Maybe you can give yourself a little bit more of an introduction and kind of build a foundation. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me, George. So fun. And I know we have a little bit of a personal connection with Hawaii and whatnot. So very cool. Yeah. So I am a podcaster. I'm an author.

I am an aspiring stand-up comedian, which is really probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And I am a teacher. So I started my career as a 26-year-old executive director. So when you said a young woman, I'm very flattered by that. So in a while since I've said, new ones called me young. And, you know, in my career, like a lot of executive directors, I was what I call an accidental fundraiser. They gave me my email address and the keys and said, good luck. My first two Google searches, the first day in the job was, what does an executive director do and how do you fundraise?

So unfortunately, a lot of folks find them so. to be accidental fundraisers. And over the course of 12 and a half years, I started with a $250,000 year budget. I, along with my team, was able to grow to just a little under $3 million a year in private funds, which was great. And it was an adventure. But I was like, why did it take me like a decade to figure out how to do this? So my next stage of the career was helping people like myself who were put in these

really big jobs without a lot of training, without a lot of support. And I figured, why have folks stumble around like I did? Why can't I just help them figure it out faster? So that's what I'm doing now. That is, it's such an amazing story. And you're right. It seems like quite often in many fields that people are given the keys and say, all right, figure it out from here.

It seems to me, though, you've done pretty well with that. Before we get too much into that, I want to talk about that strategy. Some people really prevail and somebody, some people really shine when they're giving. the freedom and the opportunity to figure out for themselves. Is that something that's unique to you? Have you always been able to do that? Yeah, that's such a good question. I have. I mean, I think one of my super powers, if you will, is I have kind of an unshakable belief in myself and I kind of believe that everything is figure outable, right? Like, we were, we had to figure out life. We weren't all born knowing exactly how to do stuff. So everything is

figure out a bowl. And I may not be the smartest person in the world, but I'm pretty smart. I might not be the most capable person in the world, but like, you know, probably like top quartile percent. So with the brains that I've been given and the hands that I've been given, I'm just going to go figure it out. Now, that being said, though, I am a big believer in trying to accelerate learning. And so I think in the nonprofit field, there's a real scarcity mindset and this belief, like, I have to figure it out, right? But there is such a thing as being able to, to throw money at a problem and figure it out faster, right? So I do really believe that you are the average of the five people that you associate with. And so my ethos and really where I think I've been

able to really accelerate my own growth is I've been very lucky to find people who have helped me to learn and accelerate my growth. That's really well said. And it's, I think that's something that translates into whatever, wherever you find yourself in life, when you're surrounded by good people or when you yourself are trying to make people better, you make yourself better by default. When it comes to being a director and raising money, like money is almost like kryptonite for people. It's got all these ideas around it and it has all like these negative connotations and these ideas of self-worth. And so how do you begin to navigate that?

I got to imagine when you're first got the keys to the kingdom and you're told, okay, let's see what you can do. Like, how have your ideas, what were your ideas of money at that time? And how did that particular part of your life shape your ideas about money? George, I'm so glad you asked that. How much time do you have? I'm ready. Let's go.

Yeah. So the very first module that I do with my students is that we unpack what I call the money mindset because you're absolutely right. People have a lot of feelings about money, a lot of emotions about money. So whether you had a lot of it growing up or didn't have a lot of it growing up, we all have feelings about it, right? And so I think for fundraisers, if you don't actually take the time to unpack all of the stories that you have about money, you know, whether we're ever going to have enough

of it or not. I mean, let me just tell a personal story. So I grew up, you know, very middle class in San Francisco and a Chinese-American family. But in my family, money was always considered to be scarce. Even though we had enough, I mean, I never lacked for anything. But what I always heard growing up was, well, money doesn't grow on trees. And who do you think we are, the Rockefellers? Or, you know, oh, that's for rich people, not for us, right?

So the idea that I grew up with was always money is scarce. I'm never going to have enough. It's to be hoarded. And it made sense because my grandparents immigrated from China and they came with $20 in their pocket. And so in my family, money meant security and stability. And so inherently, by giving away money or asking people to give money, I was asking them subconsciously, psychologically, to give of their own stability and security. I mean, it wasn't really until I met, I tell the story a lot, I hope she doesn't mind,

I met this woman Liz who really changed my whole idea about money and philanthropy and the fact that people, some people in this world really love to give money. They think of it as a privilege to give money. They see it as a way to manifest their values. And so when I started to understand that money is just flow. I mean, I know you live in Hawaii. It's like the ocean, right? You got to let it flow.

You have to let the energy come in. energy go out. And when you try to suppress the money or hoard the money, that's when it gets stagnant. And so once I started to understand that money is just energy and I'm just a vehicle, I'm just a vessel through which it can flow, it all of a sudden started to become fun because I stopped telling myself stories about, well, if I don't have money, I'm less than, or I'm going to be on the streets, or, you know, I have some kind of feelings about it's never going to come to me. Instead, I was just like, let's just have fun. You know, it's like, surf, I don't know if you surf, but it's like, you got to go with the waves, right?

You got to just like if you fight the waves, you're going to be exhausted and you're always going to lose. But if you go with it, much in the way of money, if you flow with it, it starts to become fun. That's such a great answer. I wish there were more people like you teaching younger kids these ideas about money. Because much like the way you were brought up, so much of the way we're brought up as kids influence our behaviors later in life. And money is just one of these things that you're never taught about it in school. You know, some people look at it as a medium of exchange. Some people look at it as, you know, security.

Some people look at it as a way to influence or get things. And I think if you could begin, like it's obvious to me you're a really good teacher. You're really good explaining things and telling stories and getting people to see things that are important like money. So thank you for doing that. One thing you touched on that I would like to maybe talk about is this idea. of telling stories about money or telling stories to get influence to allow people to let me just say like this what is the process of telling stories and raising money how do you apply telling stories to raising money george these questions are so good you're like

queuing and you up for all of the things that i don't know who gave you the clifness is awesome yeah so the story is where it all begins because story is what allows us to unlock empathy and generosity. And so when we think about story, I mean, let's just back up for a second. As a species, we've existed and thrived because of story, right? Like we're not the fastest species in the planet. We're not the fiercest. We don't have the biggest teeth or the biggest claws.

But the fact that we can tell stories allows us to collaborate at scale. So, you know, what is a family, if not a story? What is a country, if not a story? What is an economy, if not a story? What is a university, if not a story? So we think it's stories. And there's this scientist that I like to cite a lot, Dr. Russell James, who literally put people in an MRI machine to scan their brains. And what he found was when you talk about business, one part of the brain lights up.

But when you talk about philanthropy and charity, a different part of the brain lights up. And it's the same part of the brain that lights up when you talk about family. Right. So we know that charity and philanthropy are very connected to the emotional centers. How do you get to emotion? You tell stories, right? Think about when you're in a movie and you're like, you know, it's exciting and you're gasping or you're crying or whatever. It's because it's a story. It hits this emotional center of us that bypasses the intellectual. So all to say that I think when we trained fundraisers to lead with numbers, and I'm not saying numbers are important. Obviously numbers are important. But when we teach them to lead with the number, we miss an opportunity to get at the heart of an emotional narrative.

And so when we think about philanthropy, numbers are the things that we use to back up what we've already made as an emotional decision. And the way that we get to the emotion is through the storytelling. Wow, it's deep. I'm going to ask this question because I think that a lot of people seem, like that can seem awfully close to manipulation. in some ways. And I'm sure that some people, you know, some people queue it up like that.

Like, what's your response to something like that? I think real authentic storytelling is the opposite of manipulation. I like that. It's not about how can I tell the story to manipulate someone's emotions. It's how can I tell the story that will invite people into a conversation? How can I tell a story that will invite people to see this as part of their personal journey? Because at the end of the day, we're all the heroes of our own story, right? We're all the stars of our own movies.

And so when I'm talking with potential donors, I'm thinking about, I'm listening, first of all. So I think the other mistake a lot of fundraisers make is they talk too much, right? So I am trying to listen to you to understand what is your story? What do you care about? What are your values? What do you want to leave behind? Right? Because at the end of day, we're all going to die.

You know, sorry if that's news to people, but like we're all going to die. I at some point, though I guess if the tech bros have their way, we may never die. Anyway, the point is, we're all thinking about what are we going to leave behind? What is our legacy? I really believe that everyone in the world wants the world to be a little bit better because they lived. And so if I can listen very deeply and invite you into a story that helps you to achieve the thing that you want in your life, which is legacy, leaving something behind, leaving the world a better. a place for your children or whatever it may be for you and connect that with the work of our of my organization then we have alignment and by the way that's not every person right like

if you know if I'm talking to you about my work and I'm in education and you're like hey Rhea guess what like I love what you do but really my thing is saving the whales I'm like that is wonderful please go do that too right because I think abundance tells us that there are more than enough people out there and so I think the other mistake that people make around the scarcity model is the approach every single conversation like this is the last conversation i have to get this gift right and i like to say this a lot it's like dating if you approached every single date if like you have to get married this is the last one i'm ever going to have it's really intense and honestly desperation is a stinky perfume like no one wants to date that no one wants to give to that right

right it's true it's so true but like think about dating when you're on a date. Like you're telling stories about yourself because you want to, you want to see if we see the world the same way. We want to be known. We want to be seen. And at some point, if it feels right, then like, yeah, let's let's put a ring on it. Let's get to the next level of women. But if it's not right, that's okay too. There are plenty of people out there. There are plenty of causes. There's a lot of help that the world needs. So I said a mouth. Yeah. I think it's beautiful. And I love the injection. I love the analogy into dating. You know, I used to, I used to some friends of mine when talking about dating, we would always say that you can smell desperation.

You know, so I like that analogy that you use. You can see it in people and it's, it's very off-putting and it reeks a little bit. So I like that she said that. 100%. I mean, I say this all the time too. My training is like, I'm married. Yeah, I've been married for a while. But, you know, when I was single, I would go through these periods.

where I would not be able to catch a date to save my life, right? And then the second I was in a relationship, everybody wanted my number. And I was like, why were you? Like three months ago. And it's because of the vibe that you're putting out. If you're putting out a vibe of, hey, it's all good. I could take it or leave it. And by the way, I'm awesome.

And like, you know, I have nothing to prove. It's very attractive to people. But if you're, to your point, desperate, like no one wants to date desperate. Sorry, I have a son in my eyes. Yeah, no problem. All right. That's better. You know, it's interesting. Like, sometimes I think that it's imperative that you go through desperate phases.

Like, you have to be desperate to understand what it is, how it feels, and why it's bad. Like, I think, I think all of us have gone through those stages. And if you haven't gone through a desperate phase, then it's kind of like suffering. Like, you have to suffer a little bit to thoroughly understand who you are. You have to be desperate a little bit so that you can see it in other people. I'm curious, like, at what you do it, at raising money or maybe in some of in your in the in the classes you've taught before what do you think about the idea of being a bridge between two people you've talked about causes and people and

finding the right way to do it do you see yourself as a bridge sometimes oh yeah 100% i or you know sometimes i say a vessel but i am just the conduit through which i'm allowing people to live their best story right so if you're a person who has a desire to make something have to make something happen. We'll say, you know, I know you're in Hawaii, so maybe clean oceans might be your thing, right? But you personally are not going to necessarily go out and clean the oceans, right? Or you could, but like your impact would be pretty small. So as a fundraiser, what I'm doing is offering you the opportunity to connect to something bigger than yourself. I could say, hey, George, I am raising money for this organization that is cleaning the oceans at this level. Do you want to join us? And so I'm, I'm marrying your design. with the work and bringing it together. And I think the mistake that a lot of folks make is, especially in the nonprofit field, is their belief that they're not providing value?

You're providing value, right? And it's just combining value. So the resources from our donors combined with the work of the organization makes something bigger than any of us could do alone. And so for me, it's about attracting the resources to make the work happen, not about chasing, right? Because chasing never works.

It's exhausting. But if you are so clear in your purpose, so clear in the impact, and so clear about the kind of people that you want to invite into the work, it just becomes easy. It becomes fun. It becomes a game. Yeah. I like that. It's true. It seems that when you have a clear path of what you want, then you have a clear path of how to walk and get there.

I'm hearing a lot of like, do you have a background in psychology? Like, it seems to me that you are pretty good at seeing. or understanding people's behaviors, their motives, and maybe some character traits that people have. Is that something that you've always kind of grown up with? Or is that something that you learned growing up because of where you grew up and how to interact with people? Or how did you get to be so intuitive? Oh, gosh, that's so nice, George. You know, aside from like decades of therapy, I do not have a background in psychology.

But, you know, I've noticed people, right? I've been in this game for almost 20 years. And people, you know, at the end of the day are not that different. Like as human beings, we all want to be known. We want to be seen. And we want to be part of something bigger, right? We want to be known for something. And, you know, I often think about there's a, this is sort of a funny story,

but there's a restaurant here in New York City called 11 Madison Park. And they're, you know, Michelin Star. They're quite well known. And my husband took me there for a birthday, which was lovely. and I sat down, I looked at the menu, and on the menu, they'd printed happy birthday rea. Now, this didn't take them any time. It didn't cost them any money, right? But it made me feel really special that they knew that it was my birthday.

And honestly, I don't even remember what we ate. I'm sure it was delicious. But what I remember is happy birthday rea on the menu. And I just think it's these little things that make people feel special that we can all do in our lives, whether we're fundraisers or not, because at the end of the day, the day we all want to feel special we all want to feel important to somebody and i think it's a really basic human need yeah it's a great point and it's it's often these the little things in life that that people see is it different for like in my mind i see you approaching some people that

you know maybe some wealthy donors that want to give money to a good cause is it different approaching someone that has millions of dollars versus approaching someone that has maybe thousands of dollars? Yes and no. So fundamentally I think that the heart of fundraising is really about a conversation. And I think the other mistake a lot of people come to fundraising with is this idea of like, I have to convince someone or persuade someone. Like I'm not in the convincing business. I'm not in the persuasion business, right? I'm in the connecting business. I'm in the, hey, George, what do you want to achieve and how could I help you with that? So in that sense, the human sense, it's somewhat the same. I think it's a little bit different when you think about

different levels of influence. So if you're like a global influencer, say you're Oprah, right? You're not going to approach Oprah the same way that you would approach your dentist per se. So it's, I think it's about strategically thinking about how can I approach this person in a way that is trust building? Because at the end of the day, everything that we're trying to do as nonprofits It's in our marketing and our communication should be about building trust. Because I think trust is at an all-time low. We don't trust our governments anymore. We don't trust companies.

We don't trust nonprofits. And so the more that we can position ourselves as trustworthy, and there are really three elements to trust, it's benevolence, honesty, and competence. The more likely we are to secure support and to get commitment. Because at the end of the day, you only do business with people that you trust, am I right? Hopefully, I think a lot of people end up in business adventures that they thought they trusted, but then something bad happens. But yeah, you're right. That's the way you're going to get into it. Yeah, you wouldn't enter business with people that you didn't trust to begin with.

Yeah, or loan money to somebody you didn't trust or deposit money with somebody you didn't trust, like a bank or something like that. Yeah, that's exactly right. So, you know, trust equals donations, trust equals business. So even, you know, I'm not in fundraising myself per se, but I am in. business, right? So my job is I now teach people how to fundraise. But when I get on phone calls with people, I'm not trying to convince them of the thing and I'm like give them the hard sell. I'm here to listen. And if I think I can help them, I'm going to make an offer. And if that offer is not what they need, then, you know, then that's cool too. There's like plenty of other people

in the world who need what I need. And I just think getting away from that desperation energy is key. Yeah, that's, I agree 100%. It's, it's when I think about psychology or when I think about the idea of building trust or having conversations, I think of like exact phrasing. Like do you use, I think in your book you talk about using the exact phrasing to land that major donor ask. Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah.

So, oh, where to begin with this. So a lot of times when people go in front ask because they are nervous about it, they tend to over-talk it. So one framework that I really like that I have to credit Laura Friedrichs with, who is another amazing fundraiser, is two sentences, one question, right? Sentence one is a me sentence. So, George, you know, as we've talked about, I'm super passionate about saving the oceans. Sentence two is a you sentence. George, I know that you too have talked about how important the oceans are to you and all of the amazing moments that you've had connecting with nature, right? So I'm demonstrating that I've heard you, I've listened to you, I know what you're about.

Then there's a question. Would you be willing to consider a $10,000 donation by June 30th for us to kick off our Save the Oceans campaign? And then I stopped talking. And the silence is important because sometimes if you don't let the silence breathe, then you end up going, but you know, I know that's a lot of money. So you know, it's fine. Like, you know, just think about it.

Okay, I'll just go. Right. Very awkward. So I think a couple of key things going in with the plan, structuring the ask, and then saying, would you be willing to consider, right? Because I think it's a bit more gentle than would you give, right? Yeah, I'd be willing to consider. Sure. You'd be willing to consider.

And then I have a couple other fun things I'm playing with now too around tactical empathy. So a couple of key things. But at the end of the day, it's just, it's about connecting with people. Have you read the book, Never Split the Difference? Not only did I do that. I took the training. I'm so jealous. I'm standing up to Chris Boss.

It's awesome. The tactical empathy piece is really helpful. What an amazing term. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is, so I took the training. And, you know, it was great and I loved it. I was a big Chris Voss nerd beforehand.

Funny enough, I'm actually going to have one of his team members on my podcast in a couple months, which is really fun. Anyway, the point is, though, I was in the training and I was like, oh, this is just fundraising stuff, right? Because as a FBI hostage negotiator, what you're trying to do is just get to trust, right? You want this hostage taker to start to trust, you just start to talk to you. It's not about negotiation. It's not about bargaining, but it's about like, what do you want and how can we, how can we reach this final destination?

And how do I really listen deeply to what you really want, right? Like what you're saying that you're wanting is maybe like a million dollars or I shoot everyone in this bank. But what you're really wanting is safety. What you're really wanting is to get out of this thing alive. And so I think it's about hearing what's not being said. That's so true. And that is such an, it's such an amazing skill to have, not only in, in a nonprofit sense, but in a relationship sense. I think that's something that carries over to all relationships. And once you begin to understand this idea of hearing what is not said, it's almost like a sixth sense, almost like a different kind of like a different way to interpret the world around you. Then you can really start making differences in people's lives when you can do that. I'm happy to hear you say that. That's probably one reason why you're happily married. One reason why you're doing well at what you're doing and people are loving your new book. I'm stoked to hear that.

That's really cool. Well, you know, it's funny, George, is I also have a podcast. And actually having a podcast now for two years has really helped me to be a better listener. Because I, you know, I think I'm challenged with listening because I'm like a lot of us. I'm just listening to like solve the problem, right? Or I'm listening with an agenda where I listen just enough. I'm like, yeah, I know what you're about to say. And, you know, unfortunately I have to say of my poor husband.

bears the brunt of me not really listening. So anyway, that's a whole other thing. But I think when we, but it's exhausting, right, to deeply listen to people. And I think we live in a culture of not really listening. Like we're so distracted. We're like on Twitter and watching Netflix and doing our email at the same time and online shopping. Like we live in this age of distraction.

But if we could actually give people the present of our presence, it doesn't cost you anything and it's such a rare gift. Yeah, that's well said. I'm curious when you talk about podcasting and listening and can you, what are some ways do you think that maybe podcasting has changed the way you have conversations? Really excellent question. You know, it helps me to listen more deeply for interesting things that either are not being said or could lead down a path.

So, you know, like you, I send out preliminary questions in advance, but I use it as a guideline just as starting because I never know where a conversation will lead. And so I've also become a student of interviewer. So I listen to Oprah Winfrey constantly because I think she's just such a gifted interviewer because the thing that I really appreciate about Oprah is she not only asked. really insightful questions, she leads with empathy. So she's always like in it with her guest. She's resonating. She's emotionally connecting. She's laughing with them.

She's crying with them. She's feeling their emotion. And I think that's why she's the best of what she does. Yeah. I think I admire her too. I almost feel like she has gone through all the pain in her life. And so she can, that's kind of where empathy comes from is from being in some of those situations or knowing people that have.

And I would imagine that that is something that is a big part of what you do, to be involved in so many causes that are passionate causes. Like, you cannot be involved in that without being a passionate person or understanding what other people are going through or understanding people's motivations. And it kind of ties this idea of the hero's journey, storytelling, you know, raising awareness for a cause. And how has empathy? created real Wong in the world she lives today.

And that's kind of a general question. But how has empathy influenced you today? Yeah, that's such a good question. So, okay, I'm going to talk about this. So I'm reading a book right now by this amazing psychotherapist named Dr. Gabor Mate, called The Myth of the Normal. And it's all about trauma and trauma responses. And when we think about trauma as the things that happen to us, it feels a little intractable.

But when we think about trauma as something that happens inside of us, it opens a possibility that we can change the story. And so I think where I'm going with this is I think we've all experienced hard things in our lives. Like we've all experienced loss and pain and grief and sadness, but we've also all experienced joy and love and happiness and flow. And I think when you can see the person inside and what they're going through and offer help or guidance in that way, I think that is sort of the soul of relationship building. Because I do think, you know, especially in like American culture, we're so invested in the front of appearing a certain way. Oh, I have the fancy car and the fancy. shoes and the fancy watch and then fancy house, right? But that's all just window dressing, right?

At the end of the day, there's a little person inside who feels sadness or feels scared or feels loneliness or feels fear or feels joy. It's like, can we just get to that place? Like, can we talk about real things? So the way I think that I've been successful in my career to go back to the question is I remember what it's like to be that new. brand new executive director with no idea what to do, no idea what to say, fear of failure, fear of talking to people who have lots of money, fear of doing the wrong thing.

And when I get back to that place, I feel like I'm, you know, I say this a lot, it's like, I've constructed my training and my book for the 26-year-old me, who was totally clueless, right? If I can help one person to feel a little less lost in the world, then I feel like I've done my job. It's true. I like to, one of the stories I tell myself is that if I want to make the world better, then I should try to make everyone around me better. And in default, I'll make myself better. And I think that if people can find ways or find stories to tell themselves, you know,

whether it's a silly story like mine or it's a story that it has more passion or whatever story it is that you can tell yourself and you can believe in it passionately, probably a story that, and I mean a story that you can passionately believe in, that you believe with all your heart. I think that's a, that's a story that will resonate with other people. You know, and as we were talking, as you brought up, Matte, he's got some interesting ideas about psychedelics that I really like. And I, you know, it's, it's a fascinating thing to talk about. I don't know if that's something we should talk about here, but it's been a passionate about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it.

All right. I mean, I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble with like the feds or whatever. But I'll see what I'm going down now. I might get in trouble too. Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Well, you know, I think that nature and nature medicine has a lot to offer human beings. I think the research on psychedelics is really compelling. Am I getting in trouble for this? I've dabbled in microdosing myself legally. I just want to say. And I think it's been helpful because I experience kind of low-level anxiety like I think every New Yorker does.

And, you know, I just, I think that we have a lot to learn about the ways in which nature can really heal us, both in terms of medicine and really just in terms of being in nature. I mean, I know you live in Hawaii, so it must feel really nice to be so close. to nature and all of the majesty of nature. But, you know, I think it's interesting. I see that a lot of Western culture is starting to come back to, you know, indigenous wisdom around, you know, caring for the earth and interconnectedness and, you know, understanding what the earth can teach us and the ways and which the earth can heal us. So, I mean, it took us a while.

We had to do a lot of destruction, but I hope that we as a culture are coming around to the fact that, you know, what we do to the earth we do to ourselves. Wow, that's, that last line should be a t-shirt or a bump. Like that should be out on everybody's mind right now. It's beautiful. And I couldn't agree anymore. It seems to me that for so long we have gone down this road of specialization where I'm a specialist doctor. I'm a specialist mathematician. I'm a specialist scientist.

We've gotten so far out of it. on the world of specialization, the right hand, can't even communicate with the left hand, because they speak different languages. And it's like we've, and then we've built these walls around us, like, well, I am this kind of person. I don't associate with that kind of person. But little do you know, that kind of person has the answers for this kind of person. And I think that that's what psychedelics, at least for me, have been able to show me, is that

there's so much just bullshit out there that people have ingested and bought into, not only bought into but but been sold this bill of goods this idea of you know consumption versus contemplation and we've just gone down the weird rabbit hole too much and i yeah i'm curious if like i think that there's so many great non-profits out there in psychedelics that need the greatness of real wong well send in my info i'm happy to help them you know i think that's right george i i think we have failed to listen to nature. And actually what's really fun, and I'm just going to give them their shout out. So one of my clients is this organization called Earth Species Project, and they're using AI to decode animal language.

So they're using AI to look at data sets from humpback whales and monkeys and new Caledonian crows, interestingly enough. I don't know if you knew crows have a very sophisticated social structure, and they use tools. Anyway, the point is, the world is communicating. And so many trees talk to each other through fungus, right? There's all this communication going on that we don't even know about because we're in our little human brains thinking that we're the best and we're totally unaware. But, I mean, cetacean communication has preceded human communication by thousands of years. Like, how could they not be talking about amazing things in the ocean?

And so what was interesting is during COVID, they were able to get ocean sounds. without human interference because the ships weren't making the oceans noisy. Anyway, all to say, we went down a weird hole, but I think psychedelics can be really helpful in opening up our minds to what we think we know but might actually be wrong about. Yeah, that's really well said. You know what else I find fascinating? Like, I'm a huge fan of mushrooms, and I try to eat them as often as I can.

The bigger the dose, usually the better. But one thing I've found Right on, George, right on. It's so true. Like there's, it seems to me, and I'm not saying it's for everybody. Obviously, if you're going to do something like that, you should do your own homework and you should be responsible and follow the set and setting methodologies. That being said, I think it allows you to come to a point of clarity. You know, I think of MLK's speech like I've been to the mountaintop.

I think at a certain threshold of mushrooms, you get to go to that mountain top and you get this moment of clarity. You can't stay there. But you can take a good look around and go, okay, this is interesting how this is working up here. Now I understand. Let me go back down from the mountain and start putting this stuff into practice. And when I look at, like I like to grow mushrooms. And when you have to inoculate the spawn and you get the mycelium going. And people can do this.

If you're listening to this, you can probably go out on your yard and dig around the root of a plant. And you'll see like this white kind of fungus moving through the root system. That's the same way, the same way that mycelium grows. moves nutrients from root structure to root structure. There's a lot of evidence that shows that psilocybin in the mind, when you put someone in an fMRI, like you see all these new connections being built. The default mode network is turned off

and all different parts of the brain are lighting up. And it just seems to me the same way that nutrients are moved around the root through mushrooms, so to our new connections moving around our brain. If you look at a root structure and then you look at the, a brain in an FMRA act, they look so similar. Like there's, and it's just so amazing to me. I think as above, so below.

And I think we can learn so much from looking at the way animals communicate. We can learn about how we communicate. Let me share a quick story with you. I read this amazing book called, gosh, darn it. Of course, I can't think of it now. But the premise of the story was that these botanists go down to South America. and they're trying to learn from this indigenous tribe. And the first day they're there, they go way, way out into the Amazon, and they meet this tribe, and there's four different scientists.

And they begin talking to the tribe and the tribe. They go, well, how do you guys learn about this medicine? What do you guys do for medicine? And the elder in the tribe says, well, we talk to the plants. At that point in time, three of the scientists leave. They're like, this guy's a nut job, man, we're out of here. But one guy stays, and he's like, oh, you know what? I'm just so thankful for getting to be here with you guys, and I can't wait to learn more about how you communicate with the plants.

The elder's a little miffed. He's like, well, what did those guys leave? And he's like, I don't think they took you seriously when you said you talked to the plants. And then the elder's like, well, do you take me seriously? And he goes, yeah, I don't think you would have medicine if you didn't talk to the plants, of course. And so, you know, after the course of like three or four days, the elder finally begins to trust him a little bit. And he's like, would you like, would you talk to the plants? And the guy's like, absolutely I would.

Are you kidding me? And he goes, okay, come over the wall. walk for me. So they begin walking through the forest. And as they, they pass this tree, they see like this green snake. And he goes, you see that snake right there? And the scientist is like, yeah. He goes, take a good look at that snake. And he's like, tell me about it. He goes, well, it's a green snake. It has two white dots behind its ears. It's kind of an ovate shape. And the, the elders, like, that's right. Now you see that plant right below that tree? He goes, yeah. He goes, explain that plant to me. He goes, well, it's a green plant. It has two white diamonds behind the back of it,

and it's kind of an ovate shape. He goes, it looks a lot like the snake's head. And the elder goes, yeah, that's how we know it's the medicine. It looks just like the snake. If you get bit by that snake, you're probably going to die in five days. But if you take that plant after you get bit by that snake, you're not going to die. And it just makes me think like that, it's not that they're talking to the plants. It's in a way they are, but it's a different form of communication. There's definitely communication there. And for the West to just, just dismiss these ideas of people not knowing what they're talking about is it's almost it's not only sinister it's just flat out ignorance i think but that was my story what do you think i i i love it and

if you find the name of the book i'd be very interested in reading it um is jeremy narby is the author i'll send it to you yeah send it to me i mean i this is interesting i didn't think we'd go down here but i 100% agree with you and you know and particularly being you know chinese american i have had a long history of growing up and like my grandmother would make for soups all the time and I was like, what is it? Right. But we have had these long traditions of healing using herbs, using acupuncture, using Tai Chi, right? And I think it's only now that the West is like, oh, wait a second, maybe there was a lot

of wisdom in these centuries old traditions. And I think a lot of the ways in which we think of in the West, whether that we are all separate or that, you know, plants can't teach us anything or that somehow we're separate from our environment is really, to your point, it's ignorant and it's egotistical, and I think it probably has a lot to do with, you know, toxic capitalism. And I hope that the next generation is really able to move us forward in understanding the interconnectedness of the planet and all of us to each other and all of us to the earth and to nature. On that topic, I have a book recommendation for you too.

Yeah. Have you ever read The Lion Tracker's Guide to Life? No, I haven't. It's really great. This guy, Boyd-V-R-V-R-T-Y. B-O-D-V-A-R-T-Y. He and his family own a wildlife preserve in South Africa. And he writes about everything that he's learned from trackers and being able to track down

lions and the ways in which, like, you have to notice, like the tread and and also the ways in which you're able to get almost like a sixth sense of a vibe of like how can I be part of nature such that I can cue into it. So anyway, a lot I think is around energetic feelings and frequency and vibes. You know, like you can tell when people have a good vibe. Like we read it right away. Yeah. We read frequencies right away.

I think it's been a huge oversight in Western medicine that we haven't really thought about energy fields and the ways in which we're interacting energetically with the world and other people. This has been an awesome and woo-woo past that we've gone down. I'm in a way. I know, me too. I think that it's a real conversation from two people that are kind of getting to know each other that are interested in saying similar things. And I'm tying it back together. Like as you're talking about the way in which you see the world, as I'm beginning to learn the books you're reading, as I'm beginning to learn more about your family, I'm beginning to understand your philosophy for your book, get that money, honey. I think that you have a unique way of communicating. And that's probably why you're so successful. That's probably why you have the confidence that you have is that you have the ability to have clarity in what it is you're doing. I've spoken to some other people that, you know, they do different kinds of fundraising and in some of.

of their methodologies. I don't think that they have the the grasp of building a bridge between two people. And if they do, I don't like the way their bridge looks. I like the way your bridge looks. You know what I mean? Like it's a beautiful bridge. You're connecting people in a way that is helpful. You're looking to build something. And I like the language that you use. I think that language paints pictures in the minds of people. And if you use ugly language, you're painting an ugly picture. But if you you use the right language, if you use the right words, then you're connecting on a level that it's, it's more than just superficial. It's togetherness. I think people can get that.

When they hear what you're passionate about, some of these things that may seem out there, like I think that they're getting a better understanding of who you are. And for those just listening, check out the book. I think you're really going to love it. We're going to put all the stuff in the show notes. But yeah, it all comes together, Ria. This is a beautiful conversation. Yeah. Well, can I, can I add to that too, George? Because I think, a lot of it has to do with intention, right? Like, I don't know if you meditate, but every day I meditate and I think about intention every day.

And I think people can really sense intention. So if my intention is I'm trying to enter a conversation to get something out of you, people know that. But if my intention is to connect and just see what's here, people get that too. So I think it's really about what kind of energy are you bringing to the conversation? And if it's an energy of transaction

and extraction, then I'm no better than like an oil driller, right? Like I'm just trying to get something. But if I'm about how can I see what possibilities are here and can we explore that together, it's a really different kind of conversation. And then the intention dictates the language that you're using, right? It's like you can tell what people's intention are by how they talk.

Like when people talk about like, well, we're just going to like go out there and twist some arms and like pass the hat and I'm like, okay, you're obviously coming from a kind of extractive energy. And then, you know, separately we can talk about past lives because I also believe in that. And I have my own past lives. So I just believe in this life. My job, the mission in this life is to evolve myself personally and to help as many people as I can. Yeah, that's a beautiful mission.

And I want to throw this into the mix. I've been thinking about this quite a bit and I'm curious to get your opinion. You know, when I, it seems to me, excuse me, that suffering plays a role in who you are as a person. And I know that some people can suffer the same thing and come out as different people. Some people suffer and they stay in that suffering. Some people suffer and they go, because this happens. Some people suffer and they say, because this happened to me, I'll never love again. And some people go through that exact same thing and they say, because this happened to me,

I'm going to love more than I ever have before. And I think that there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a decision there. And I, I think the purpose of suffering and tragedy is to come through that suffering and then help out the people. Because once you go through something like that, I think it gives you a sixth sense. It gives you the ability to see suffering in someone else. It seems to me like you, you have a pretty good idea and a good understanding of, of suffering and a good understanding of seeing people. Does that, does that come from you suffering somewhere? Like, I'm just trying to drive home this point. Like, how do you have such clarity and understand what you're talking about? It's beautiful. I'm just curious how you got it. Yeah. I mean, Georgia, I will say that I have lived a very privileged life.

You know, I feel very lucky in the ways that I, you know, the circumstances that I was born into, the resources I've had, the opportunities I've had in my life. But it hasn't always been easy, right? Like, you know, I certainly growing up, I have, I think, a pretty important. pretty difficult relationship with my father, who had a pretty violent temper growing up. You know, I don't think that my parents necessarily had the most healthy relationship. You know, we've all gone through moments of real suffering. I mean, I think anyone who hasn't, like, suffered it in childhood, I'm like, wow, that is a rare occurrence.

And I think it really goes back to this deep belief in myself, like, okay, I'm just going to pick myself up and move forward. I don't know where that comes from necessarily, but I think about, I work with a really talented mindset coach named Dr. Eugene Choi, I've named checked him a couple times. And he talks about the brain only has one of two modes. You're either in executive mode or survival mode. And most people are in survival mode 70% of the time. And in survival mode, you're reactive, you're angry, you're aggressive, you're threatened, you're stressed, or anxious. But if we can just be aware of the fact that we're in survival mode, and even just to say to yourself, okay, I feel anxious or I feel stressed or whatever it is, you can move

yourself into executive mode by engaging your prefrontal cortex. And so I just feel like part of it is, yes, I've suffered and I've had some hardship in my life. You know, I've had people I love who are no longer bodily plain, right? I've had people. I've had disappointments. Like, you know, everything hasn't been all roses.

And yet when I look at it net net, like, yeah, life is turned out pretty well, right? Like, right? Right. And I think it's also what you pay attention to. Like where your attention goes, your energy flows. And so I could dwell on all the things

that haven't gone right or all the times I've been hurt or all the times I've been sad or all the times I've been in grief, all the times I've been, traumatized or I could focus on all of the things that have gone right. And I'm not saying I do this 100% in time. I'm a human being. I'm not like Mary Poppins roses coming out all of the time.

But like net, net, like what do I have to complain about? We are living in the richest country in the richest time in human history. I have clean water. I have access to food. I have a roof over my head. I get to talk to awesome people like you. Technology allows me to connect to basically anybody in the world. Like, life is awesome.

Are you kidding me? Yeah, we're really lucky. We're really fortunate. And it's something that I like what you said, you know, thinking about thinking using the executive function and understanding the patterns in which you think. I think that's a really powerful way to empower yourself. And I'm wondering is what you said you were a teacher. Do you still teach some classes? And it's so.

What are those classes? Funny you should mention that, George. I am actually currently, so I'm usually in downtown Brooklyn, but right now I'm in beautiful Oh, High, California at my old high school teaching a course to sophomores and juniors on social entrepreneurship. And it is so fun. I'm teaching later today. I have my lesson plan and everything. I just find it so delightful to teach, and especially young people, because I can really see their brains starting to form and asking the big questions about who do I want to be in life and how am I going to be? Yeah, it's such a privilege and an honor to teach.

It is. And I'm so excited you're teaching that. I was talking to some friends at a school we know. I have this idea that I've been working with. Like, why can't kids graduate with a residual income? Like, I don't see that. There's no reason why kids can't graduate with one. Right? And so I'll send you my, I did a whole podcast on it. I think it's totally plausible for, like, let's take something like midpack or a school like that or maybe the school you're at. Like couldn't it be possible if the kids came up with it? Like you could have like a science fair or just a fair where kids present their ideas. In that fair, you could probably find three or four great ideas that were come up with the students.

Everybody in that class could create that product. And I think in most schools, they do this thing where they create a fictional product or they buy a product and that they and then they sell it in the cafeteria or something. something like that. But what if the school actually invested in that product? What if some parents in that class invested in that product or a service? Yeah. You know, like a Kickstarter thing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Why can't we have that? No, we absolutely can. You know, and to the point about an amazing time, like at no other point in human history has it been easier to make money online. I mean, you have kids out here making NFTs for tens of thousands of dollars. You have, I mean, you can start a company.

Like, all you need is $100 in the internet connection, right? We live in an amazing time, George. So I feel like the gatekeepers are dead. I take my book, for example. I self-published it. Like, I didn't have to wait for permission for a publisher to say that they were going to publish it and take 80% of my profits. I was like, you know what? I have an idea.

I'm going to put it down on paper and I'm going to sell it. And if people find it valuable, they will buy it and it'll be great. So I just feel like you're absolutely right. There's no reason why they couldn't. And I also think there's no reason why. And I want everyone to hear this. There's no reason why you need to be miserable at work. Like so many people are miserable at work.

Quit your job. Go start a business. We live in this golden age of entrepreneurship right now. And I just think there's no. excuse to be miserable. If you're miserable, it's a choice you're making. Yeah, I like that. That's really well put. I think it comes down to this, this self-imposed scarcity. You know, like, we live in abundance and so many of us, and it's probably because we're being told this

through TV, through radio, through everything. You're told that you're nothing. You're told that you're told that, look at this person up here. Look how much they have. And it's this implicit idea that you're not enough because this person is so much. but it's all bullshit, my opinion. Excuse my way. It is bullshit. Wait, so I have a story I like to tell. There's a, there's a, maybe it's not true.

I don't know. It's a prock-propole. But basically, a bunch of sciences took a jar and they put sand fleas inside. And normally sand fleas would just jump out of the jar. But what they did is they put the lid on the jar and left the jar alone for three days. They came back, they took the lid off, and the fleas only jumped up to the level of where the lid had been. But the crazy thing is all of their offspring only jumped up to. to where the lid had been and no further.

So basically generations of fleas were trapped in this jar. And so I think that that's an interesting story about human beings, right? Because so many of us have inherited our parents' stories about money, what you can and can't do. I mean, particularly coming out of an Asian household. It's like, get a good job, work really hard, save money, retire at 65 or 70. And I'm like, that sounds terrible, right? But to them that was freedom because they have.

had learned from their immigrant parents who'd grown up in the Depression. So it's like we've inherited these stories about the way that the world is. But that is, you know, we need a software update because that is an old model of operating system. We're in 2022, about to be 2023. The world is really different than when our grandparents were growing up. And yet we haven't upgraded our stories about what is possible. Yeah, that is beautiful.

Upgrade the story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Back to limiting belief, right? Like you, whether you believe you can or whether you believe you can't, either way, you're right. That's right. That's right. You're such an awesome teacher.

Maybe you should think about coming back to Hawaii and teaching over here. Listen, send me a notation. I'll be on the next plane of Hawaii. It's beautiful. I do. I really think we're going through a transition right now that, you know, there's a lot of doom and gloom. But I think that this is what freedom looks like. I think that this is going to be something that.

And kids, I think kids are so. smarter these days. They have so much access to so much information. My daughter's telling me these ideas and I'm like, what? That's phenomenal. It's, it's, it's beautiful in so many ways. Yeah. I mean, I think the this generation haven't been brought up in as digital natives have so much more of a facility with technology and understanding the world in a different way than we did growing up. I mean, when I talk about, like, I was born before the internet, kids. Yeah, I'm Lydia. You look at me like a dinosaur. Like, wait, what do you mean? I was like, I know. We had no internet. We had no emails. Amazing. So I hope we do something good with it. But I do think what I see

in the younger generation is a deeper awareness of their impact in the world. And look, by necessity, like we have not done a great job of safeguarding their future, whether it's climate or economy or the state of the world, there's a lot of cleanup that needs to happen. Yeah, it's so true. There's a lot of work for them to do. Ria, how are you doing on time? I actually do have a hard stop at 10. Sorry, I do have to go.

But, Jordan, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'll shoot you an email and we'll definitely keep in touch. I really enjoy the conversation, too, and it's exceeded my expectation. You are an awesome person, and I'm looking forward to having to talk to you more. I would love that. That would be so fun. So thank you so much for having me. This has been a lot of fun and we'll be in touch. Absolutely. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Before you go, Ria, what do you got coming up? Where can people find you and what are you excited about? So I have a program I'm launching right now with my friend Brooke Ritchie Babbage about fund your strategic vision.

So that can be found. Actually, it can't be found on my website. So find me on LinkedIn, Rio Wong, R-H-E-A-W-O-N-G. Sign up for my newsletter. It goes out weekly with inspo like this, Rio Wong.com. And the book is called Get That Money, Honey, available on Amazon. Fantastic. Ladies and gentlemen, get the book.

You're going to love it. Reach out to her website. Reach out to her. Have a conversation. I did, and I loved it. So thank you so much, everybody. Aloha. Have a great day.