TrueLife - Rhythm Sanctuary: Journey with Ahva Lenay, Colorado’s Ceremonial Medicine

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Introducing Ahva Lenay, the guiding light of Colorado’s healing journey  ! Join us on a transformative adventure as we explore the world of Ceremonial Medicine, Bio-Energetics, and the power of ecstatic healing. Get ready to embark on a profound and soul-nourishing experience with Ahva, a Certified Bio-Energetics Practitioner, a Certified Massage Therapist, and the radiant owner of Rhythm Sanctuary. Welcome to a world of well-being, connection, and spiritual growth.Ahva LenayCeremonial Medicine Woman, Colorado Guide TeamCertified Bio-Energetics PractitionerCertified Massage TherapistCeremonialistOwner, Rhythm Sanctuary Ecstatic Healinghttps://www.rhythmsanctuary.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. It is Friday. Aloha Friday, everybody. I hope everyone's having a beautiful day. I hope that the world is, is,

treating you in a way that you deserve and the sun is shine and the bird is singing and the wind is at your back. I got an incredible show for you today with an incredible guest. The one and only, Abba Linnae, the guiding light of Colorado's healing journey. And I hope everyone out there is going to embark with us on this transformative adventure as we explore the world of ceremonial medicine, bio-inogenetics. They say that right, and the power of ecstatic healing. Get ready to embark on a profound and soul-nourishing experience with Ava, a certain world. certified bio-ingenetic practitioner, a certified massage therapist, and the radiant owner of Rhythm

Sanctuary. Welcome to a world of well-being, connection, and spiritual growth, everybody. Aloha. How are you? I'm happy. I'm good. I'm excited. I'm nervous. You know, it's a new moment that we've never had before. So I'm good. Yeah, I know that you are. You're not only good, but inspirational. And for those people listening, we were having a brief conversation where I had mentioned to her in a coy way, be here now. And she had said, George, I was with Ram Dass a few times. And so I thought we'd just begin the podcast with maybe you can share some of those stories. I don't know, I don't know that story. And I would love for myself, my audience to hear it. So please, if you're willing to share.

Well, that book found its way to me by someone that I just loved and treasure that was a few years older than me at the time. So someone I looked up to and I just thought that was like the coolest thing to hold in my hand ever. The style was unique even for its time and was so simple. I'm like, be here now. And I'd already begun on my explorations in the psychedelic realms. So that was something I could relate to on a lot of different levels. No matter where you go, here you are. I don't know if anyone else had that journey.

And so, you know, I just started reading that book. And then I lived in Bellingham. I was a new mom. I was 23-year-olds. And he was coming to Bellingham to a local bookstore to talk about that book. And he was just coming home from India where he had reached his great enlighten with some of his cohorts, cohorts, as I like to say. And he was talking about the journey in India.

And he was talking about the journey from India to Bellingham. And he had stopped off in Hawaii. And he had, it was the first time. So if I was 23, okay, we're talking 40 years ago. It was a long time ago. Had my little baby with me. Oh, you know, wide-eyed and just so excited to be in his presence. And he talked about, well, he talked about his experiences in India, which were just so beautiful and so meaningful and relevant to me at the time.

And so everyone was just like in awe. And he talked about swimming with the dolphins. And I'd never heard of such a thing. And it was his first time. And he'd never heard of such a thing. And he started talking about the psychic connection, how the dolphin could read his mind. It would start to dive down a little ways. And he was like, woo-hoo.

Well, first, the dolphin taught him how to grab the fins so that he could ride with the dolphin. I'm sure that's not acceptable now. I did swim with the dolphins about six years ago in the wild, and I thought very much of Ram Dass. So he shared those stories and he shared other stories. And I could go on about that. But the takeaway was, oh, my God, this man, he had no notes. He had nothing to go by just his heart and his spirit. And you could feel that.

And I just thought, oh, my God, I could, how he remembers all these things to detail. And it's because he was like reliving them as he shared the story. And I was just so wowed by his presence and his articulate nature and his ability to connect with his audience where they were at. So that was the first meeting. Then the second meeting, I was 44. And I had just gone through a divorce. and it was here in Denver.

I live in Denver. And it was at the Mile High Church. And I'd heard he'd had the stroke. So he had just written, I believe, Fierce Love, it was. And he was coming back. And I'm like, oh, my God. And I was in such a huge life transition. And that Ram Dass was coming again, I wouldn't miss it.

Now here's this crazy teaching. So I went. I got there early so I could find my seat. Everyone, it's a big venue and everyone is standing along the edges and we're all waiting for Ram Dass. And, you know, I'm, I'm coming at it with the memory of him in person when I was 23 and I met him. I sat with him for a few, you know, I felt so blessed and seen by him. I'm going to cry.

I think, you know, maybe everyone doesn't know, but he's gone now. Then not gone. He's still here now. And on this occasion was very different. They wheeled him out in a wheelchair. And I'll tell you, the room was so quiet, George, you really could hear a pin drop.

And there were children, young children in the room. There was just a real intergenerational showing of people in support. They wheeled him out. And he sat, you know, when he had the voice, what do you call the thing for the throat to help to help him amplify his voice, but he sat in silence for what seemed like eternity, quite honestly. Maybe it was five to ten minutes. And I thought, oh, my God, if anything with him not even speaking, his presence is even more profound

than what really impressed me and wowed me and inspired me when I saw him as a speaker. And I honestly thought he was just going to sit there in silence with all of us for the whole time. And I thought, well, how perfect is that? I get to see the duality of a very beautiful, articulate, engaged spirit speaker, you know, speaker of spirit, and see him now where he doesn't need the words. And that was the big lesson in takeaway. And he did speak. And he talked about his book. He talked about fierce love.

and all of those things. But for me, the big aha was in those moments of silence. And it just came at two, like, completely treasured times in my life when it steered me into my next evolution. So that's my Ram Dass story. And I have friends who lived with him in Hawaii and took care of him. So I have some other, like, sweet stories and inklings of what life was there, like, living with him.

And it was just equally as beautiful and meaningful as what I had. It sounds wonderful. And it's, first off, thanks for sharing. I think those are great ways for people to, no matter where you are in your life, if you're 15, 20, or 40, or 60, we've all gone through these cycles of change. And I think the way you describe meeting Ramos and those particular parts of your life, speak volumes of rites of passage and ceremonies and these things that have. to us. And, you know, I think that leads us into kind of, it's a great segue into, like,

what are you doing now? Like, maybe you can give us a little bit of background. Like, that's a great background story. But maybe you give us a little bit of background and what you're doing now and what led you to it, like a little buildup. Yeah. Well, I was one of those rebels, you know, coming of age in the early 70s who didn't want to conform to anything. I didn't want money. I wanted to barter for everything. I wanted to live off the grid. I, you know, all of those things. I wanted to focus on spirit and all that was coming through was all the things that were wrong with the world. Gosh, George, you're just making me cry here. I love it. And so at 23, I had my first baby and I was a single mom and I wanted to get out of the city and I had a midwife and that was pretty

unheard of in those days. 1981, actually, now we're talking. And so I moved off grid and I joined an intentional community. And, you know, I was very idealistic. And we were learning from some of our Native American elders about pey medicine and sweat lodges. You know, the peyote church was alive and well in the Okinawagin Highlands where I lived. I built a yurt.

I lived in it for three years. My second child was born in the yurt right there. and I wanted to live close to the land. For me, it was really about getting in tuned with nature somehow was going to save my soul, you know, and who I communed with. So I think that the rites of passage I experienced then that were so organic. Like I don't know that I even really had a term such as rights of passage. But certainly as my children were born and started to mature,

I wanted to provide these meaningful experiences where they would take. notice of the big life changes, where they would take notice of the passages that were happening in the world around them. So I would say it was really my children and my own still kind of idealistic childhood innocence that I had preserved that led me into rites of passage. I think another key component was I grew up dancing lessons. You know, I had a single mom, so she kept me busy. I had baton lessons and accent. from bats and jazz and ballet and tumbling, all the things. And I loved it.

I loved all of that. But then when I got older, I wasn't interested in, like, being a showperson and a performer. So I dropped it all. And then when I moved into that community, what came through was African dance and drum. And here was traditional teachers from Africa coming through our community, sharing. the talking drum, sharing the dances of ceremony, of harvest, of birth, of rights of passage. And so I think those items combined, you know, living in nature, following the seasons,

and having to live with the land. I didn't, we didn't have power or electricity. You know, we had solar power where we were just kind of moving into that. So we had to learn how to, I lived, I had a pelton wheel for my power when I also, I mean, you're going to have to like center me here because you're going on all this. It's perfect. But all of those things coalesced as I, you know, grew into myself and grew into someone who really cared about the experiences that I was providing for my children and their friends and my community. And so the combination of that is what led into Rhythm Sanctuary. I taught, gosh, I taught at a studio.

for a long time too. And I just wanted to bring more ceremony and ritual. And that's how Rhythm Sanctuary got started. And it's following somewhat of like the traditional kind of dance passage through the African drum and dance. And I studied with an elder very well known here in this area, Mama Tish, Letitia Williams, who gave me permission to teach these sacred dances and songs. I've studied with incredible drummers and from Ghana and all along West Coast in Africa and have been blessed to keep the stories alive, to keep the rites of passage alive. And so all rights of passage have great meaning. My eldest granddaughter is turned 13 on February 2nd.

And through the community that I host, the ecstatic dance, a whole bunch of women got together and created ceremony and dance performance. And we did a rite of passage for her turning 13, where there were probably close to 400 people in witness at our dance on a Thursday night. And no less than, I'm going to say, 16 women all bringing some element of a gift to steward this beautiful young woman. my granddaughter into her 13th year as a rite of passage and really was beautiful. So I hope that gives a little insight. Yeah.

I think it's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. It's beautiful and meaningful. And I think that we've really lost a lot of a lot of that. There's a resurgence. So I feel really hopeful. And there is a lot coming back around with rights that we have beautiful brothers in the

community who are doing rights of passage for young men and I have showed up at some of those processes because they're more than a day on some accounts where they're doing a vision quest and I get to be the elder woman that they meet with to talk about correct and right relations and things of that nature and yeah it all factors in and I I feel honored that I get to be a part of part of that in our community. It's fascinating. What, like, what goes on when a girl turns 13? Or we'll just, we'll start with the ceremony with your granddaughter, if you don't mind talking about it, or rights of passage for a woman, for a girl becoming a woman.

It seems to me that, you know, there's echoes of it where I grew up, like a quinceanita or for a boy, there's a bar mitzvah. But for most people, you know, there's maybe a car when you get 16 if you're lucky or you go and get wasted when you're 21. but what does it look like? It seems like there's so much knowledge. It should be transferred about a young woman understanding that she is the only person who can bring life into this world. It seems like we're missing this sort of transfer of knowledge from person to person and from elder to the person becoming a woman.

Is that the kind of things that may get passed down in a ceremony for a young woman, for a young girl becoming a woman? Or maybe you can talk about that. Yes, absolutely. And I'm not going to talk about my granddaughter specifically. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll talk about kind of more in general. So for me, as a ceremonial list, it would be, well, actually right now I'm working with a young 15-year-old woman, too, who's in a different level of rights of passage in high school and is really struggling and is already struggling with alcoholism and addiction and things of that nature. So that's the next level. But I feel like if we steward our children and we foster them into a culture that supports them where they know where they know where they know who their elders are, what's safe, that we could prevent a lot of what's happening in high school right now. And it really is, it's sad to see.

So in general, let's say, go back to say a womanhood right of passage. You know, it would start honestly. I would like to work with clients at the start of the menses for a young woman, if not even sooner. But when the onset of the menses come is a perfect segue way to understand what you're just describing, to understand that every human life is born through the body of a woman. Yeah. That's powerful. And it's like, oh, it's not just this messy blood right and all this inconvenience.

and I just wanted to play soccer or go swimming. It's like, let's bring the meaning and depth into this and let's share our personal stories. So it would be meeting with the parents to find out, you know, what's the culture of their family, what are their values, what do they want to, you know, for sure, bring in to the knowledge and the wisdom, you know, staring this young woman forward. Who would they want to be there, you know, in a ceremony?

Are there three generations available, maybe even four? We're going to bring their grandmother in and have that there for them. And likewise, would there be a point where they would sit and talk to a grandfather, maybe a trusted elder in the community? Because there's a time also to bridge the gender gap as well, where they have the opportunity to ask, maybe hard to ask questions of somebody you know, from the opposite gender, which is the role I serve, you know, with the young men. So we would sit and then we would create a circle that would ultimately end in a celebration.

So we would sit in a circle. We would share stories, maybe funny ones, maybe serious ones, maybe magical ones, you know, all the aspects, depending on who's there in the circle, maybe some of their friends would be there, that they wanted to have present. And there would be, for me, I do meaningful things because I like having, I'm very tactile, I'm a very somatic-centered person. So I like to borrow from our native elder traditions where we create a necklace or a bracelet or maybe a sun catcher.

So I would invite all the young women and those attending the grandmothers to bring a bead and this would be a bead that they feel has some meaning to them. Perhaps it's from their strand of pearls that they were given when they turned 16 or maybe it's an African trade bead they found on the ground and it just felt special to them and they've been holding onto it and now they know why. So we go around in a circle and then everyone would be having this prayer bead And then we would pass the string along. And as they tell the story or offer the prayer or the blessing,

they string this bead on the strand. And then their whole, so. Yeah, it makes me want to cry. It's beautiful. Yeah. It's so moving. So then all of a sudden they have this beautiful necklace or whatever we've decided to create that has this community

and the stories reflected in. there and there will be a scribe, you know, who can write down this bead from, you know, great grandma and this bead from, you know, my friend and so on and so forth. And they have this like living record of something that they can pick up any time and remember the story. So that would be an aspect. That's one of the things I often share in like a young woman's rite of passage. And yeah. And then and then there would be like maybe, then we would share food and celebration. We would dance.

I have all the wealth of African dances and drumming, so we would for sure have drumming. We would for sure dance together to the four directions. And, you know, just like go off and see what she has to share as well. And then I would follow up. I'm thinking to my granddaughter now. And it would be, all right, now we've done this. And I want you to call upon the gratitude.

What did you get out of the experience? What stood out for you? Can you please write about that? Often the gift I give is a journal because I want to encourage that living record, you know, and some place to always have to go. And I was a journal keeper for many, many years in those days. I still am, actually. So and then, you know, follow up.

Just like a journey, as I know you've been talking to Jotima and all of the team, you know, preparation, the ceremony, and integration is everything. So it's the same with a rite of passage that wouldn't even include our plant ally medicines. I might also do a cacao ceremony and I might also do a kava kava ceremony. It depends on the age. Like I'm kind of leaning into the work I'm currently doing with this young woman. I'm leaning into a kava kava ceremony. It's legal and it's a wonderful kind of de-layering. Like, you know, your tongue tingles and something's happening and you're extra alert and awake.

And you can have your friends there. And it just brings you to the heart like a kakao ceremony. So those are also aspects that I often weave in. into these rites of passage. We might even do a camp out, you know, like a Beacon Quest camp out. It just depends on the family, the circumstances, and so on and so forth. That's so beautiful. As you're painting this picture for us to see, you know, I can see not only the images of what can be in that ceremony,

but I can have a vision of the relationships that are able to form after and because of, of that ceremony, when people begin to understand, hey, this is a change in life. This is a, this is almost a death and a rebirth for me. This is part of me leaving me behind and becoming this new person. So of course there's going to be changes. Of course it's going to be awkwardness. And when you begin to understand that as an individual or someone, it's like, oh, this is what growing is.

And you create a lifetime of growing when you begin to understand that these changes are necessary. They're difficult, but they're meaningful and they, they, they, we need it to happen. And we need to happen throughout your life. And it's such a great way when I think about ceremonies and rights of rituals, how the elder has already been through them, but yet they get to play a new part as the elder for the first time. And the person going through it gets to play it. And the person, the younger child is like, that might be me one day.

And it's so beautiful. And I'm so hopeful that more people will begin to thoroughly understand the need in our society, in our community, in our world for us to understand that we're one giant, organism and we're going through changes and we can look at ourselves if we can take the time to see it. So thank you for explaining it like that. It's so beautiful to me. Thank you. Yes. Well, first, can you see me feeling your heart? I am just, yeah, the love is expanding with every word and gesture, George. You reminded me, I didn't quite finish out the thought. The gratitude that's important to form the bonds and the relationships that could be lasting,

such as you described are really crucial. So, you know, that they have some gesture of thanks, even if it's a phone call. But I really encourage everyone to write a note, to handwrite a letter and send it off with maybe something like a feather. Like I have quite a collection of feathers. And, you know, like something to give back because I always teach that gratitude primes the way for grace. And grace is that the universe having perceived that we're receiving, the gifts that were given, you know. And if we're grateful for all the things as they show up,

even the hard challenges, then we've received the gifts and we get to graduate into the next, you know, reception phase. And so gratitude is super crucial. Yeah, good reminder. I think I'm on silent. And you reminded me of something else. I forgot what you said, birth and rebirth. He spoke of birth and rebirth. and death and rebirth. And so when we formulated the group, the women's group that I spoke of that all collaborated and co-created to create this beautiful ceremony for my granddaughter, we named it. There's such power in naming. And we called it, George, the nest of the Phoenix.

Yeah. And I just had a feeling you might appreciate that because, and we started and she was present at all the meetings. we met for eight weeks. And we went through what we put big papers up on the wall in the dance studio, covering the mirrors. And we write the stages of the phoenix. Like if the phoenix was more than a mythical bird, what are the stages? Oh, there's the hatchling, the nestling, the fledgling and so on and all these things in

between, you know. And then we like got into like the maiden, the mother and the crow. You know, that's the Trinity. And then all the women are like, I think I was the eldest there. The women are like, you know, there's some, there's some like passages missing. We didn't just go from a mother to the crown. How about Mother Queen, Crone? It's like when we share these works together, we get to discover new aspects of ourselves.

And I want to really, I really want to express that I think it's okay that we're, we, you know, there's all this cultural appropriations concerns. And I think that that is real and needs to be respected and honored and researched. But I think there's also a point where in our culture, you know, in mainstream American, it's important to have the experiences that we have, like for me with African drum and dance and then studying with a teacher and then getting permission to use these aspects to teach or to my thing was wanting to to teach something called, oh gosh, my brain just went, whoop. I'll tell you in a minute when that part lands again.

But, you know, it's okay to weave with good intention and not looking for self-credit or taking credit, that we get to weave these different aspects of the journey. So we had women who were, you know, Buddhists. And we had an African, you know, African-American woman who was very much a traditionalist. And we got to weave all these to create our new rites of passage, to create a new ceremony that was meaningful. And so I think that that's important, too, is that we give ourselves permission to, you know, take from the environment in our organic experience and weave that into the ceremony. Yeah. When I think of weave, I think of a tapestry. And I think about everybody playing a part and weaving a new tapestry with a new design and a new color.

or a new symbol. There's ways to do it. And part of it is to ask for permission. Sometimes is to ask for forgiveness if you make a mistake. But tapestry goes on, right? That's right. I agree. Yeah.

And sometimes just ask for forgiveness. Yeah. Whoops. Okay. I'm innocent. You know, when we're coming with that pure heart, you know, we just want to lift everything up into the highest elevated frequency. You know, I think that.

that there's a permission. And if it's not right in our field, we can't go to that elder or we can't travel to Africa or India or wherever. We can seek out wisdom from our elders and our community and our collective field as well. Yeah, I just really admire the way in which

it seems to me that there's this echo of the past that's reverberating. And it's causing us to see the world in a new, almost alien, even though it's the way it was saw before. For so many people that have been absence, rights of passage or ceremony, it seems like there's this new world emerging, but maybe it's just the old world dying or getting back to a spot where communication is so meaningful and understanding what life is without seeking a giant material possession for your happiness.

You know, there's a lot more ways in order to bring meaning into your life than to attach that meaning to something shiny. You know, and I think we're getting back to that. Maybe you could speak to some of that as far as like you've, you have lived an interesting life and you have gone through different ceremonies and passages. And now you're helping other people. What are some of the patterns that you have seen emerging as of late? Mm-hmm. Well, there's some big patterns emerging that I'd, well, you know. You can't help but talk about them.

I mean, we've gone through so many movements. It's funny because so I do unit of justice work too, which is kind of based on Restorative, Dominic Barter's restorative justice, which is accepted. You know, it's used in the legal system, and it's often an alternative for families and so on and so forth. So I'm a trained facilitator, so I hold unity circles. And I can't help but think of all that was stirred up with the Me Too movement. and things of that nature, consent, and that is alive and well, and needing to be addressed.

And a lot of times this was arriving for me and my awareness right at the same time, medicine ceremonies. It's before we really, you know, legalized here, psilocybin in Colorado and so on. So there were still all these underground ceremonies and things that sometimes were a ceremony, the first round, but the second round, not so much. The second round, everything sort of because, you know, they were being led by what I call showmen, maybe not shaman. Yeah.

They didn't have a lineage, no foundation in the lineage and moving forward, not in the best way. So I was facilitating a lot of those kind of conflict resolution circles around accusations and consent and things of that nature. So what I'm seeing even in the short time is that we are learning to listen to each other. The Me Too movement helped put a light on a lot of the shadow that was happening. And now, well, last night at Rhythm Sanctuary, for example, and our tagline, by the way, just very much in alignment with what you spoke, the tagline for Rhythm Sanctuary is where ancient wisdom meets modern culture.

And so it's wanting to honor. the ways of old that like the phoenix you know the pearls that we're gathering and bringing through us in the rebirth but there's a modern culture emerging at the same time so how do we you know find the lock and key and fit that all together and the best way that can can serve consciousness and technology you know growing at different speeds and rates and trying to catch up to each other and last night here's an example of something that i feel just very very very very move by what happened. And so at the end of our dance, we have a two and a half hour.

We call it a ecstatic dance ritual. It's a sober space. Anyone would be welcomed in any condition as they entered, but there would never be any kind of imbibing in the space or, you know, there's always someone who sneaks off to their car for a little puff or it's Colorado after all, you know. But bit by piece. bit, people are catching on that the idea of doing these medicines in these lodges and in these sacred ceremonial ways as a sacrament, that we can't just keep going back again and again and

again because what I learned from my elders is that's disrespectful to the medicine. That's disrespectful to our elder plant allies. We have to integrate what we got from the medicine. And I think that our ecstatic nature, you know, it's organic. It's a birthright, really, in and of itself. When all the circumstances are right, so providing a very conscious music in a very intentionally program setting with altars for the masculine and the feminine built every week. So we've been doing this 21 years now. So the container is set. And within the structure of the container, people understand and know how to flow and grow in the container.

I hope I'm not getting too far off. I was going to share how our dance ended last night. It always has a theme. We respect everyone who participates, but we don't put the DJ or the musicians up on a pedestal and worship them, you know, like a concert. It's all a part and parcel of the whole experience. But at the end, we circle in the beginning, we share intentions, and we circle at the end. And the dance itself is in silence because we want to foster nonverbal communication. We want to go to the depths of something that might be available in the old way of a trance dance,

where we're communing with spirit, we're bringing something through. but from all of us in our sober, clear mind and heart space with the intentions that we said. So at the end of the dance last night, we had our circle. People shared. There were tears. There were laughter. There was laughter. And we always close out with a song.

And I had the inspiration. Our theme was that we're all one, that we're not alone, a play on the word. And we introduced at a beginning, and it seemed to have a lot of meaning. And listening was really a deep part of the medicine last night. Like, listen to the music, listen to yourself, listen to your community, listen to your body. And at the end, a song came through, and we put all the women in the middle, and all the men circled the women. And we, all the men sang to the women. And then we swapped and all the women stood on the outside and we put all the men in the middle and we sang to them.

And the words we sang were, I don't know if I can do it without singing. Sing it. I didn't know on that. I think about that. But the words were brothers, oh sacred brothers, know that we are with you every day. healing, listening. Oh yeah, where did it go? Because it came on my way, diving to the dance.

Oh, healing, we are listening to all your feeling in a holy way. That's what we sang to each other. And you know, over and over and over again, we sang like probably five or six times. And then we all united in one big circle and we sang to, well, the invitation was to sing to Mother Earth and or to speak the name of somebody that you wanted to call unity and healing in with. So most of us sang to Mother Earth and some people you could hear, you know, grandmother, beloved. You can hear names of the people. And we sang for unity. We sang to heal all the wounds and to be together so that we're listening.

That was the key. We're listening to what you're feeling. Let yourself feel we're listening. We're here for that. And that was a really, really beautiful and potent ceremony ending. It's beautiful. You bring up this idea of dance too. And most people don't think of dance as communication.

But it is. It's a real form. If we think about language and words, words are a fragment of language. But so too is dance. So too is symbolism. And all these things together are a real effective way of communicating to each other. Maybe you can speak to the ideas of how dancing is a way in which we can interpret life, whether something is dancing through us or the way you can see people dance is another

way to see people move through life. And you get to understand balance. and the way you dance with somebody is the way a relationship can be. And there's dips and there's falls and there's leading and there's stepping on toes. And there's so many beautiful ways about it, right? Exactly. I think you just answered your own question. Pretty sure.

Yeah. All the metaphors you used is what comes alive in a short time, say, at an ecstatic dance. Also, I'm a big festival co-producer where we have 10, thousand people, 10,000 souls on the ground, and often part of our opening ceremony is an ecstatic dance. And it's, that's it. It's exactly, it's this like condensed time of coming together where we agree that out in the default world, you know, out in that lab of life, we're talking and using our words all the time. And we always start out with something like, hey, how are you today? And, you know, sometimes that's a big question.

Most of the time, that's a big question. But if you come up to somebody and you're dancing and suddenly there's a noticing in the field, oh, look at that person over there. I'm drawn to their movement. Yeah. You know, it's more than. So oftentimes I'll open up the dance by saying, all right, I invite you to close your eyes right now and just, you know, feel into your own inner landscape. You know, just feel to the inside.

What's alive for you? Is your belly tight? Is your head full of the day? Like, let's just breathe in and notice. And we'll start there. We just start where we're at, you know? And then it'll be like, okay, now maybe from that place and it would be more elaborate because, you know, two and a half hours.

I don't know how much time you have here. As much as we need. Will you dance with me for? Of course. Yes. And then I would say maybe something like, oh, I invite you now to just, open your eyes, but only into a soft gaze, you know? Let everything be fuzzy around you. Don't focus on the faces or the outfit or the, but let's start and begin to move. Maybe you want to open your palms up so that

you can begin to sense energy. Maybe we've even done some kind of like, you know, energetic ball to start attuning ourselves and creating that frequency in our space. And then I'll say, here's what I would invite you to do to pay more attention to the spaces between the bodies, the spaces between you and other. And notice, where are you drawn? Where are you pulled? And so often we might start a dance like that. And that there's this permission then somehow to like just kind of shape shift into a new reality. Sometimes we'll work with, you know, archetypes or everyone will bring their own. I'll say, you know, what's the medicine that's called you to the dance tonight? People, you know, they're like sorrow, you know, I've been feeling grief.

Or they'd be like, you know, celebration, play, you know, all the things. They go out there and we just put it in the middle and go, okay, all this is available for all of us. And it can show up right alongside whatever is the predominant feeling that you're feeling. But at the end of the dance, I mean, there might be people crying sometimes. But I tell you, it's like that breakthrough tears of joy. So I've seen the power of that ecstatically sober environment make huge changes. People tell us, after 21 years, you know, George, I've heard it all. We moved here because of this community.

This community saved me. I was feeling lost and suicidal. I didn't have anyone to turn to and having this dance. This is our dance church. And so, and then at the end, you know, it's like, okay, what you felt here is a gift. You gave that gift to yourself. We gave it to each other. Can you harness it and bring it out in the world? Is there a way that you can communicate by a gaze, by a gesture, by a hand offered, by a secret offering, you know, whatever the thing is? Like, how do we cultivate this kind of way of being with each other out in the world and amplify?

It's like an acupuncture point. I feel it. And then suddenly it just starts to affect the whole system, you know, right there in the building, the people who, so we dance at a place called Sons of Italy. And guess what? Our culture is affecting their culture. You know, like they have opened their eyes to like a greater culture than what they foster there in that building.

And they're seeing us in all of our, we're a broad spectrum. I mean, we have, you know, burners. We have lawyers, doctors. I mean, some of our DJs are doctors and attorneys. You know, it's like it's a full spectrum and that can be embraced. And it's just a beautiful thing to behold. And then we cultivate it and harness it there and then do our best to practice and take it out in the world and remember the feelings that we felt

and generated through the conscious music and our prayers and our building of the altars. And there's always a way to show up and be a maker or a contributor. And that's a beautiful thing. It's so beautiful to me. You know, the song from Janice Joplin, take a little piece of my heart comes to my mind. Because I think after going to an event, a festival that has changed you in a way, the next time you meet somebody, like you understand how to give a little piece of your heart to somebody. Maybe you do like a little dance with, hey, I was like going on, George, you know,

or like, maybe you hug them, but like you take a little piece of your heart that was given to you at a ceremony, and then you can give even a smaller piece to the next person you meet. And it just bonds you to people on a level that most people don't understand. But it draws people to you. And it's this gift of giving that you give to someone, even if it's a gesture, if it's a soft gaze, it's something different than a, hi, monotone, how are you? Like, you're breathing life into the other person. The breath of life in some ways is the way exchanging information.

between people. I'm so enamored with the community that you have and what you've started there and what you've learned there. And like, I'm drawn to it. And I know that other people listening to this are probably drawn to it. It's fascinating to me. And it seems to me that it's something that I'm hopeful that it's contagious. Do you think it's contagious?

It is absolutely contagious. It is beyond contagious. Yeah. Yeah. So when Rhythm Sanctuary started 21 years ago, it first started in Boulder. I don't know if you, I live right in between Denver and Boulder in a little town called, well, not a little town, you know, a little city called Arvada. Although I am looking at at an empty field and a beautiful view to the flat irons and two horses across the street from me. But Boulder, they didn't really have any kind of a dance like that. I mean, you could go to Cleo Parker Robinson's and study African and take a class or do something at Europa or, you know, on a college level. But this really wasn't a thing.

And there was a barefoot boogie that had been going on in Boulder, which was like, you know, really fun, a really fun way to get together, not very intentional. and also contact improv has been very, very much of a culture. And they all come to the ecstatic dance because we have healed professional dancers. Last night, someone told me, oh, my God, I quit dancing so long ago because I was just so over the programming and the conditioning and the dieting and the this and the that. And I haven't danced this free in forever. So started to say, right now, I can count in Denver, one, two, three, four ecstatic dances offered weekly, and Boulder has at least five. Nice.

So it's a growing thing. And it's been around, honestly, when I started a Rhythm Sanctuary, I didn't even realize, I didn't, I didn't know what ecstatic dance was. I was coming from being, you know, a dance teacher in a studio teaching something called NIA, which was a beautiful thing, but it didn't have the spiritual or ceremonial aspect to it. I mean, you could bring in the emotional healing. And, you know, it was the healing arts, the martial arts, and the performance arts. It was a combination of those. And, yeah, I was just really longing for something that, you know, we could build ceremony and ritual together as a community because not many of us were going to

church exactly, you know. And so it really has evolved into a dance church. I would say it really does feel like a dance church. And the music is the minister and all of us are the congregation. We all take turns, you know, stepping into our ideas and leadership roles. And it's very, it's very empowering. to individuals and the collective. Yeah, it's, sometimes I wish we would think more about healing the community instead of focusing on the sickness of it.

I think in a previous conversation with Moksha journeys, we were talking about how healing can be contagious. And it sounds to me on some level, that's what's happening. When people get together and they understand that it's the suffering that we all share, these are the times that we need each other. These are the times that bring us together.

But so many of us suffer in silence. And it just causes so much heartache and distress between the family. But suffering is a call for us to come together, isn't it? Oh, I believe so. You reminded me of a story once from the dance after it was all said and done. You know, I have my eye on everybody. And this older gentleman came in and I thought, oh, my gosh, I hope he's not. not too shocked. We have some chairs on the side, you know. And I kept my eye on him and he was kind of moving

on the outside and this and that. He never really fully got into it, you would say, right? So at the end, we always circle up and we have like a shareback from the journey where people are encouraged to speak about some little pearl or some insight that maybe rose up for them. And, you know, like I said, I had my eye on him. I just wanted to make sure he was like comfortable and, you know, just have my eye in case I needed to step in and offer anything, water, a cup of water or something. And at the end, he spoke. And he said, well, I'm here from Texas visiting my daughter. And I'll tell you, she brought me here kicking,

dragging me, streaming. I put up every resistance I had, but she wouldn't let me say no. And then he started to cry. And he said, and I can't tell you how grateful I am that she drugged me here because tonight I held my daughter in my arms for the first time since she was a little girl. And he was just crying and I'm like,

oh my God. You know, so little stories like that. And on every end of the spectrum, I mean, literally life and death. And it was just so beautiful because I thought, oh, gosh, you know, he's probably not enjoying himself very much. And he came out with that beautiful share. So you don't know what's going to happen. You know, it's another lesson in letting the judgment go. Yeah.

Open hard and, you know, allowing everyone to have their. own personal experience and not walking away thinking you understood or knew what that was. It's like that old saying, dance like nobody's watching and love like you've never been hurt. It's like manifesting it right there. You get that opportunity. You get that opportunity. It's a beautiful thing. Oh, my goodness.

And I see George in your world, I see that you're going to a festival in the near future. Is that true? I was on your podcast and so I looked it up. Oh, it said you're attending, but maybe you were just supporting attending. I might be like I know that I've been attending a lot virtually, like listening to people and going there. And I need to come to a festival. I should come to Denver and come to an ecstatic dance festival. You know, I need to get out and do it.

Hawaii is such a beautiful place. And in some ways, I feel like every conversation has been a journey for me. And I do. I get to live it like that. But I need to get out and experience it more. And I think that's the next phase for the podcast and growing is getting out and going to places and actually doing the podcast from places and getting to embark on it. And yeah, I do think that everybody in their life should go through these particular, you know,

whether it's a concert or a festival. But I think early in life, I know when I graduated high school, I went to a dead show. That's how old I am. I remember like in that. And it was late. It was in the 90s. But I drove my Volkswagen bus up from San Diego to Autum Stadium in Oregon. And I'll never forget.

We drove up, me and my buddy Craig. And we parked way out in this field. And we had gotten there like a day early. And I'm like, dude, there's nobody here. What's going on, man? It's like a day before. You know, it's supposed to start tomorrow. And I remember I parked my bus way out in this field.

And I woke up the next day. And it was just colors people everywhere. And I'm like, it's amazing. You know, you're walking around and meeting people. But it was. It was in some ways I felt like it was a mix between the hero's journey and the prodigal sun. You know, like you're just out meeting people. And there's all these people your age and you're having these fascinating conversations.

And albeit maybe some of them naive and idealistic, but so rewarding and gratifying and learning. And like, oh, these people get it. And you can make lifelong friends. And you realize that. that there's a whole cohort of people like you, like to say, out there desperately trying to experience life and looking for people just like you. And whether it's the music that calls to you,

like the sirens call to Odysseus, or if it's the gaze of a stranger that's seductively pulling you towards them in a way because they have a secret to tell you. You know, you know they do. You know, there's so much out there for people to live. And I want people to experience and there's outlets. And yeah, I think that if people find themselves listening to this,

and they're being called to a festival somewhere. That's the call to adventure, the call of the wild, as John Steinbuk would say. But yeah, so this is something that you do every single week that goes on there. Every single week except we don't meet on Thanksgiving. There you go. So every Thursday. And you know what I just did, George. What's that?

I just flew to Florida. for six days where I have two granddaughters, one and eight, and their mothers. And I said, well, if I'm coming to Florida, it would be kind of fun to create a more memorable experience. And maybe there's a festival. So we found the Roots Revival Bluegrass Festival that was four days long. And also their godmother flew out. So there was five females. It was the way, wait, wait, the god mama.

The two mamas, the two grand, six of us, we created a beautiful camp. We called it the goddess grove as we could. Yeah. And there were lots of funny jokes about that, you know, when you're out and you're camping. We also, the G. The G. We became the gassy giggle. Like food, you know. Right.

You know, we're camping. You can build a fire. We're sharing that culture with our children. I mean, you can really have a mystic. experience at a festival. The music is uplifting. People joining together, dancing, are uplifting truly the vibration. The frequency is a whole different level of frequency than we often can experience just in our, quote, ordinary reality out in the world. And those were the best four days at the festival, four nights, four days, going to music, going to the kid camp, creating art with the

grandchildren, well, the one-year-old, not so much. For her, it was a very great opportunity for socialization because she hasn't really had that socialization with others, her age, and it's a family event. And it was just so beautiful. And the magic, like, they're all like, why is there so much more magic here? That's what my eight-year-old was saying. Why is there so much more magic here, you know? Like, you could go to a fire. This is an experience I had at a festival. once and it was a big fire kept all night so when I host my zone at the arise music festival the one with 10,000 people we create wisdom village and it's the in festivals you know you have it's a sort of microcosmic you know sampling of all of humanity so you got people that are you know out there

with their drugs and then there's alcohol and then there's the sober yogis up on the hill you know yoga temple and so on and go forth but at wisdom Village, it's a sober zone. And again, anyone is welcome in, but if you're coming in with a beer in your hand, we're inviting you to leave that at the gate or come back when it's done. We keep a fire 24-7 the whole time. We have trained firekeepers in a traditional way. So it's not a fire where you'd come and smoke a cigarette or have a drink. It's a storytelling, a prayer, and a ceremonial fire. Anyway, one time the fire was so big and the circle was just layered with people and a chant got started and people and then the chant broke off into like scatting and this and that and it went all night long. And I was having so much fun with it and I was on one side of the fire and every once in a while I'd let some kind of Scooby-Doo out, you know.

And then way on the other side of the fire, I'd hear some masculine voice like literally mirroring back. my same thing. And then we came to recognize each other's voices. And this went on for hours, you know, amidst the singing and whatnot that was going on. And by the end of it, as everyone's fading off, I'm like, I have to go see who is that person? And that's how we found each other by like a little call and response, you know, and it was, it was just so fun. And he was there with his girlfriend. And so it wasn't like, I don't have a romance story attached to it, but I do. It was just such a beautiful romancing of the heart, of, oh, according of the soul, if you will.

You know, it was just so beautiful. And, you know, you're not getting that, you know, when you go downtown to go shopping or do the grocery store. You know, it's like only the set and setting, you know, as we hear so much about can provide that kind of mystical and magical experience. So I just want to encourage people to give it a try and go with your, family members and see what can happen. It's not that.

That is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, that should be mandatory. And this brings us in some ways, that's a, that's a right of passage or a ceremony, like a family right of passage. They want to go do this thing together, you know? And so much of that has been farmed out to going to a movie or, you know, going out to dinner or, you know, the degradation of the.

Well, maybe the rituals are still and always will be with us, but we have seen to lack the intention and the power and the beauty and the imagination behind them. Well, we actually decided to go on a little hike, all of us, to do a ceremony at the river. Because it was a beautiful river through the Suwannee Live Oak zone is where we were. And it was really beautiful. We went around in the circle. We spoke about little events or things that we'd noticed that kind of made us curious in the festival. That was one aspect. My granddaughter, the eight-year-old and I had gone out, and one of our rituals was shopping at different booths and meeting the artist.

And we met this man in his booth and he was crocheting and knitting. And he'd made all of these little resin. beads and had these little tin boxes and we got the idea while we were visiting how fun it would be to buy one. And then at the ceremony, she could give the ones she picked out to each of her godmother, her mamas and so on and so forth. And we had a beautiful ritual. You know, it lasted 45 minutes. And then we went down to the water and we all put water on each other and bathed our feet in the water and hiked back. And that's a memorable experience, you know. And, I think that my granddaughter Scarlett, who's eight, oh my God, the wisdom that came out of her

and all of us sitting giving her our full attention, we were all shocked. Like, you have that kind of emotional insight right now? Like she's taking responsibility for herself and her share and why this thing was meaningful to her and she's blowing us all away. And I'm thinking, well, when it's my turn to talk, I only hope I can sound as smart as her. I mean, you know, as true as her, it just, it's a beautiful thing. So, yeah, I want to encourage, courage families to make ceremony, wherever they are, you know. The barbecue.

Can you have a prayer before you break bread and share the food? Can the little ones lead it? Could it be silly? Could it be, you know, like we just start weaving it in to all the experiences. And pretty soon we're just walking our prayer with everything. every step. Yeah, I can't, in my mind, I can imagine what it's like for a young woman or a young man at the age, I don't know, pick eight just for that example.

And imagine them surrounded by people and their family and they admire and they have the spotlight where they can share some wisdom and how that must make them feel and how that will never forget it for their life if they get to be the leader for a moment and understand then everyone around them respects them instead of, you know, being in some schools where they're, you know, taught authority, do what you're told. You know, you're taught this unconditional sort of, I don't know, Prussian model of education where you can grow up and be an obedient worker. You know, there's so much more to life than that.

You're reminding me of more moments from the festival where we empowered Scarlett is her name, Scarlett Grace. And, you know, they have schedules and there's. kids workshops and this and that. So I'm like, well, today let's just go out without a schedule. Let's follow our impulse, our intuition. Let's see where it brings us. Scarlett was all about that. And I'm like, okay, Scarlett, you're the leader. Because literally we have the wagon with the one-year-old and all the, you know, accoutrements of one-year-old needs and the God mama and the, you know, we're all together. It's a parade. People said great things to us about, you know, what a delight it was to see three generations and so on and so

forth and just all added to the magic of the moment. And Scarlet would be walking. And then she'd maybe kind of forget for a minute. And then I'd say, well, what are you feeling? Where's the magic? Where's your intuition pulling you? And she's like, not yet. Not feeling it.

I'm like, okay. And then all of a sudden she's like, there, down there. Do you hear that music? Because it was such a musicians festival that all people had all these little campfires and whatnot. And you could go, it's in the culture. I'd never been to this festival before, but it's in the culture that you can build a fire and have a little music circle and everybody's welcome. There's, you know, you just join in. And she'd pull us off. And then suddenly we're meeting somebody and they're talking about the thing that's like next on our list and, you know,

nobody even shared the notes. You know, it's like, wow, okay, good job, Scarlett. You know, like, okay, who's next, you know? And then we're all. And then we're all. happy to let each other lead and follow and tune into that that sense of impulse, you know, that the universe has sparked for us out there, you know? I do. Yeah. Gosh, it's so fascinating to think about living life in a way that is meaningful. And obviously, everyone has a path that they're on.

And you may not be able to come completely off of your path. But sometimes taking this little side trail for an excursion, is what allows you to stay on that path later, right? It kind of really revives your soul. Exactly. Like I was saying, you know, at the end of the dance, it's like, how can we harness this energy, this feeling, and how can we amplify it out in the world?

And I think, you know, we don't have the kind of culture and lives where we just get to go out the front door every day and follow our intuition, you know, we're jumping on highways and doing traffic and going to jobs that we may or may not love. and so on and so forth. But George, I think you hit the nail on the head. If we can take these little excursions and turn them into what we're longing for,

connection to earth, you know, it was really important that we did a festival where we got to camp outside, you know, and be together out of our homes and out of the normal, you know, programs that we went. It's so different here. You know, I wake up and it's like, oh, gosh, I got to go pick the tomatoes. Oh, I got to, you know. actually I have a pretty dreamy situation here. I love all the things I have to go do.

Yeah. But not everybody, you know, school and homework and all those things. And, you know, we had drama before leaving. You know, there was all this work that had to get done so she could miss the two days of school. And in my mind, as the Oma Ava, the grandma, you know, for me it was all about the grandchildren. And also just fostering that sense of family and what else is possible than the, ordinary day to day. And the more you have the opportunity to do that, I think, then the more you can build it into the ordinary world in your household, going to school, it's going to, you know,

reflective listening. That's a tool from the unity circles that I host. And we had a circle, you know, there was a meltdown during the, you know, it wasn't all like what they say, unicorns and rainbows. There were moments, you know. Somebody had to pick up the litter and do the things, the chores and was cold or whatever. And so then it's like not being heard or not feeling like they're contributing. And we just had to sit down and then listen, reflectively and say, okay, it's not like what I interpret, I hear you saying, Scarlett. What I hear you saying is that I'm only seeing the bad things that you're doing and I'm not

seeing the good things that you're doing. and I'm missing out on the fact that you just told me you entertained your baby sister and nobody else was, you know, and we reflect back to them and then they're hurt and then they can move on. And so we had that opportunity too. And that is going to affect their day-to-day dynamics that they have. You know, we all get stuck in those patterned ruts of communication and, you know, the judgments or, you know, the assessments we have of each other. Oh, she's lazy or she's going to put that off. or whatever, I'm talking fast now. I'm really getting into this here.

But I think that's it. Let's disrupt the pattern. Let's disrupt the norm as much as we can until that becomes the norm. And then I feel like what's possible after we've started to, as you said, so eloquently to weave this new picture from all the experiences that each one of us bringing to the tapestry, maybe something that we haven't even dreamed of yet is possible. Like, I mean, I think it's happening all the time on that level. But it's hard.

There's a lot of struggle for families, you know, the economics and you just name it. So many of our systems are kind of imploding. And, I mean, school feels so military to me right now. I just tapping into my 13-year-old granddaughter school and my 8-year-old granddaughter's school, it's just, gosh, there's so many cautions that have to be looked to, and I get that. But, boy, I think they're missing a lot of the fun I had. A lot of the options that I had to create art and for social activities and things like that. I mean, I think it's a more challenging time than when I was young.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, you know, when the world is on fire around you, it's important to have a place where you can be safe, you know, whether it's a ceremony or a relationship that you understand you can learn from. And yeah, I think, and maybe that's why the world is sort of echoing. the, gosh, there's a great book called, it's not the invisible landscape. It is, oh, I can't think of the name of it right now. But, you know, it talks about, it's an archaic revival.

You know, and in some ways I love the sound of that. And not archaic as a pejorative, but archaic as in the ways that got us here. Like we need to read the same way the Renaissance was a revival. So too is this sort of an archaic revival of. ceremonies like look we're going through a time the same way a young woman a young girl or a young boy becomes a man the same way a man or a woman becomes a parent and the same way a parent becomes a grandparent so too we are are we moving into a new time in the planet right and it does look like chaos you know it does look like death but so does birth i mean people who have

seen the miracle of birth you don't know if that person is this person dying or let i don't understand what's going on here? All that's crazy. Yeah, blood and they're screaming. And the truth is, like, that's why they call it a miracle, because children can die at birth all the time, and so can the mother. And I think that's where we are right now as a society. He's like, okay, this is a very important time.

We're going through some big things right here. Are we all on board? And do we have the right teachers over here? What about the people that are dying without passing on their knowledge? It seems to me like that's happening on some level too, right? Absolutely. Yeah, that's a lot. I just need to let it a band for a second.

No, it's a lot. And all thoughts that I've had, you know, it's really important. And I like it. The name of the festival that we went to was Roots Revival. I love it. I love the synchronicities. And you just, you know, you just, you don't know what's going to touch somebody. A girl came up to me after the dance last night.

And she goes, I have to tell you. She goes, I, I met you, but I didn't meet. you, but you spoke at the big dome at the Arise Music Festival. And she goes, something happened. And I've never forgotten you as a result. And I'm like, oh, no, what's that? Well, you were on stage and you tripped over a cord. And it was like really awkward.

And she said, but you said, oh, my goodness, doesn't spirit have a funny sense of humor? And she goes, when you said that, it flipped a switch in my head about what it meant to be a public speaker. And I thought, oh, my God, you could just be yourself. And that's the same feeling I had with Rondas. You know, it was like he's just himself up there, you know? And then she went on to say how she'd often wondered, she remembered the time because she was pregnant and her kid was like seven now. and that she'd often wondered how she would ever find me again. And synchronistically, a friend of hers, because she lived about almost two hours.

She lived in Fort Collins, said, oh, you need to come to this ecstatic dance. And she goes, can you imagine my surprise when it was the woman who tripped over the cord and changed my life forever? And I'm just like, good story. But, yeah, I think I'm spinning a little out there. I'm not sure, but I'm with you. I just, I, it's like, during COVID, I really didn't imagine that we could create rapport and that we could connect in the same way. And it is different when you're heart to heart, eye to eye and in person.

But I feel you so strongly. And I'm feeling, I'm feeling the amplification of your excitement and the beautiful message that you have and that you're sharing. And I'm just so happy to be sitting. here in this conversation with you right now. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I notice that you use the word synchronicity instead of coincidence.

Like, maybe you can tell people what the difference is there. Oh, of course, I have a story about how that. I was invited by a friend. So do you know about like the Mayan calendar, the 13 moon calendar? Are you familiar with this? I know 2012 was like the Maya calendar. That's right. Well, the Mayans have these daykeepers, and they keep a calendar that's 13 moons.

And 13 moons versus 12 months that were created by King Gregory, you know, the Gregorian calendar, because the natural time calendar has 13 moons in it from year to year. And that accommodates one day they call Viab, which is their day out of time. It's a day that's not, it's just the day out of time. It's in July. And that's like a sacred holy day for all of these Mayan daykeepers. They're called daykeepers. So I was curious about the 13, from 2012.

I was curious about what that meant. And I had a friend who was really into it. And he sponsored myself and five other people to go to this place called Yipomera, which is the belly button of the world. It translates to where these Mayan daykeepers were keeping the days. And it was 13 days. They had 13 lodges all set up that represented each of the moon phases of the 13 moon phases. Because in the Gregorian calendar, we have to have daylight, savings time, leap year,

all these different things in that Gregorian calendar, you know, was so King Gregory could collect taxes and the Catholic Church could do the things that they needed to do for their religious hall, you know, all of that. So I was just really curious what else was out there. Well, so when I went, they just, they mostly spoke Spanish, which I didn't. But thank goodness, our sponsor, he did speak Spanish. So I could get a lot of things interpreted. But they talk a lot about something they call synchronic order.

Okay, synchronic order, synchronicity. And that was like kind of my big takeaway from my 13 days in Yipomera, the belly button of the world, where one of the ceremonies was actually lowering yourself into a big hole that was the belly button of the world on a rope and letting the earth suck you in to her belly button. I didn't do that, but I was a witness. Three of my friends from the party did it. They're fingertips. You see their fingertips.

I'm like, oh, my God, can we pull them out? So, well, synchronic order, to the best of my understanding is when your mind and your heart and your spirit and soul are all in alignment and then everything is a synchronicity. You're never in the wrong place at the wrong time. There's no such thing as a coincidence because you're exactly where you're meant to be at every time. So it's funny that you say that because I wasn't even aware that I was doing that, but that's where I got it was going and studying with these elder Mayan daykeepers and experiencing the 13 moon lodges and Viab the one day out of time. And, oh, that was such a magical trip.

We're going to have to get together on another occasion so I can tell you about the Orubus experience. I witnessed firsthand in person on like the fourth day and the asylum from the shamanic elders and whatnot. I saw a snake eat its tail. Whoa. I saw a snake eat its tail. And I'm like, talk about it now. Let's hear it. Yeah, because there I am, giving it all. Here we are. I'll have nothing to say next time. Please. We're just scratching the surface, I think. Yeah. Well, the assignment was to find a rock and to bring it to the sweat lodge and to imbue our prayer into the rock.

And so we were all scavenged about looking. And one of the gals, a younger gal from our party, I hear a scream. And David, our host goes, running over and the chief, he goes running over. We're all running over to see like what it is. And she's like, a snake. And David's like, what kind of thing? I don't know. It's a snake. It went right over my feet. And so we're all there now. And she's like, it was right over there. And then we see little Russell in the grass. And then David, who goes by the name Star Bear, which is so appropriate for him. he's like all about the stars um which actually okay coming back to center and the snake and the young gal so we're all there and we're like david's got a stick and then he's like oh my god and there it was in the infinity pattern the tail in the mouth the snake supple as it comes

and laying right there and the chief went over and he picked it up with two hands under both of circles and brought it back to the sweat lodge and told her, yeah, you don't need to get a rock. This will do. This is your prayer right here. And I was like, because you see that ancient symbol so frequently. And I'm like, I had no idea. That was a real thing. Anyway, I don't know if I pronounced it right.

I know how to spell it, but I don't know how to speak it. The Orubus, O-U-R-U-B-U-S, Oribus, I can't. Yeah. I think people get it. The pronunciation is just a symbol of the symbol. So I think saying it and showing it is, right? It's fine. Good point.

Yeah. You know, time is a weird one. I remember thinking when I was a younger man, like, why is an eight-sided stop sign called an octagon, but October is the 10th month? And why is DECA 10, but December's the 12th month? You know, like, I was just like, this would make zero sense. And, like, you know, you start thinking about stuff like that. And you can't help, but start going, oh, it's all, it's all made up.

It's all made up. No one knows. It's all made up. Like October's the stop signs, eight sides. October's the 10th month. Everyone, look. Come on. Yeah.

That's good. Yeah. And it's, I think it's just a world, like, if you just take time, sometimes it may come to you in a heightened state of awareness or it may be. come to you after a trauma or it may just come to you one day when you're driving somewhere or waking up out of bed. But these insights are there for everyone to see. And once you start pulling on that thread, you're like, you start looking behind the curtain. And then the more you look, the more you see and the more you're drawn to. And it's just, it's as if someone's calling you down

the path. Like, hey, just come here. I got to you guys. You guys hear that? That's exactly right. Well, now I'm having hearing of your childhood. I'm having a little insight how you got to be who you are right now. That curiosity, it's such a gift, you know? And as long as we can really foster curiosity in our mind, I think it's so much easier to stay open to what else is possible? 13 moons, what? Yeah.

The Gregorian calendar is made up by a king. I'm like to collect taxes. What? That makes no sense. I mean, I'm sure there's more to it than all of those. But sometimes I've delved too deep. Exactly. That's moving on.

It's enough to begin that investigation that can last a lifetime. And the truth is, like we think of people like Elon Musk or I don't know. There's all these people that were told are genius. But the truth is genius surrounds us. We're all genius. If you just take time to have the things revealed to you in a way that you can go out there and teach you. Like everyone is a genius. If they just take time to realize it, if they just take time to sit with themselves and let the information be revealed to them,

then they would have an invention, then they would have a story. They would have a fact. Whatever. Thank you. Thank you. That's right. And Jotima so frequently talks about the genius of our soul. that we all have it and like let's just get to the genius.

Like that's all you need. Just trust that your soul is genius, that you're genius, that we can move in those waves of our own genius. And when genius meets genius, what's possible. And when like a collective of that energy meets what's possible. I mean, you know,

it's like, and as far as healing, I think you spoke of it, you know, in the terms of being contagious, you know, back to like an ecstatic dance or an experience of that nature. And there comes that, like, if it's acupuncture, you know, it hits that like critical mass point. Yeah. Yeah, we're just exploding.

It's beyond contagious, you know, it's like we're sparking it in each other. And now it's just what is. And so then what's next. That's what I'm so curious about. If we're just always meeting genius with genius, then like, then what gets to happen? You know, what gets to happen next that I haven't dreamt of yet? And that I haven't even like had a concept about or like what? Yeah.

It's interesting that you point that out. Like sometimes meeting other people and seeing the qualities in them are a mirror image of the qualities in you. I was speaking with the lovely Mrs. Teranova about being in a circle and ceremony and getting to see people. And the people that facilitate those particular ceremonies, yourself, the team at Mokshya and so many people that I've spoken to, on some level, it's getting to, you know, be part of the illness and the remedy for that person that they're doing the ceremony for. Because I think when you sit with someone who's going through a particular issue, the only way to help, sometimes the best people that can help them are people that have been through that issue. And when you're in a ceremony, like you're in this thing together. So you're able to, the person that's in pain is able to give some of that pain to someone back to giving your piece of heart to somebody, you know. And maybe you could speak to some of that about what we've spoken about so far has been a lot of things.

but the part of the ceremony where you're doing rights of passage. But what about different types of ceremonies? There are ceremonies where you can help people get through difficult times and other kinds. Maybe you could speak to some different types of ceremonies. Yeah, I want to come up with that perfect example somehow. But I think for me, in what you're describing and asking, the best ceremony has space. There you go. You know, the best ceremony is it's a collective field where I'm not coming as the facilitator thinking,

I even know everything that's going to happen. You know, A, B, C, D. Like at Rhythm Sanctuary, there's a container and there's certain things that can happen in the container. But sometimes, like we always save the DJ thanks for the very last thing. But then there's that person who didn't somehow quite get the message that the share time was for something personal. And they're like, and how about that DJ, everybody? And then suddenly you're not in the ceremony. But it's like you might have to take into account that they've never spoken in public before.

I mean, you know, the mystery, we have to make space for the mystery to move through us so that we can see what wants to be revealed through the soul of the individual. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. You know, like I'm thinking, I'm trying to relate it to Moksha journeys and, you know, holding space for the ceremony. Oh, whoops, speaking of, that's my granddaughter. So sorry, I didn't silence that. That was Scarlet Grace.

Synchronocities, right? We're thinking about her. And so I'm thinking about, okay, well, we'll start with the circle and we'll in with the circle. That might be all I know. And we'll light a candle. And well, maybe since it's a medicine ceremony, we'll find out what their intentions are. And maybe everybody has a blessing to give or some prayer or, you know, a spoken word from the Radiance or Hafiz or, you know, something of that nature. And we'll just go from there and then we'll see what wants to arise.

And it's like we're human. We can't help, but, you know, have our assessment of how we think. it'll go like, oh, this person is not even going to participate because this is too woo-woo for them or whatever. But if we hold open space, if we create a lot of room in the container and we arrive with love and acceptance and a welcoming of the great mystery that we, in the unknowable, you know, we can't foresee it. Just maybe that's enough space for somebody to come in and surprise you with the deepest reveal and maybe a reveal that they never even were conscious of before, but because of the space held in the circle and the love and the blessing.

Is this answering your question a little bit? It's a different kind of ceremony than, you know, a ride of passage for, say, a young girl in her menses or coming into womanhood or a marriage or a divorce is even a ride to pass. You know, all of those different ways, they're going to have kind of certain aspects in common that you're going to want to address, maybe forgiveness, if there's divorce or acceptance or speaking intentions moving on, especially when children are involved. But for a medicine ceremony, for me, first, it's all about what spirit going to do.

You know, it's like, okay, I'm led. And, wow, I got this hit to, you know, bring this. seashell. I mean, I'm looking at a bell. To bring a bell. I got this to bring a bell and I haven't brought a bell, but I'm going to bring the bell. And then, you know, maybe the person you least expense just picks that bell up and brings it. And then all of a sudden, there we go. The ceremony is taking a turn that you couldn't have crafted on your own, but you followed the impulse to bring the bell or, you know, the whatever the thing it was or the photograph or, you know, so. I think space and allowing for the mystery to weave you all together to show up in an unknowing way, I don't know what's going to happen. But here's some elements. Let's speak to the four directions or let's let's just speak to the water, the fire, the earth, you know, and the air.

Let's see what happens if we just acknowledge that we're all of that. the fire is lit in that woman. Oh, wow, now that you mention air, like, whoa, I had this experience where I was, you know, sitting on the edge of a cliff and I just had the temptation. The wind was so strong to lean forward and see if it could hold me. And I didn't. It did. I mean, I actually had an experience like that, but you just, just one word is all the spark mystery needs to bring you into, you know, the next level. of your own journey, the next level of your own understanding of where you've been and what it means for the moment that you're in and where you might be going, you know, and you just don't know what it's, I mean, who to thunk, tripping over a cord on a stage and then just laughing it off was going to change a woman's life. She said she speaks publicly now. Like that, she said, that's what she said. She goes, it flipped a switch and she did that. She goes, it flipped the switch and it changed my life.

And I became not the bottleneck that was so nervous and afraid to speak anymore. I always would think of you tripping over that cord. And I'm like, okay, that worked. I mean, who knew? I couldn't have, I wouldn't have planned it that way. Yeah, right. But you just don't know. So I think really weaving space for mystery to inform you for,

for the beauty of unknowing. I love that. As you're speaking about it, most people who have had like a psychedelic experience have often described a feeling that is undescribable. It's ineffable in some ways. They wish they could bring it back, but they can't. But in some ways,

it's this lack of language that the ceremony expresses in a way that's ineffable as well. And I think you did a good job of explaining it in that you don't know what's going to happen. If someone rings that bell, it's the same feeling you get at that heightened state of awareness, but it's another connection of language in some way. It's the acting out of spirit in some way. Like, I've never thought about that before. But yeah, it speaks to that, right?

Like, wow, yeah, that's the next part of it. If you're alone and you find yourself on this journey and you experience something that's ineffable, maybe that's the point in time where if you were around somebody, something would happen, you know, and that's the space right. It's magical to think about. There's so many directions. Yeah. Yeah.

And setting an intention is not to be underestimated, especially in those kinds of scenarios because you're laying the foundation for the mystery to operate. Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah, for me, I just think of it. I want to create beauty. What's that? Oh, some flowers, you know, a deck of cards. We all often have like an Oracle deck or a, I bought my granddaughter a deck of cards. Somebody wrote a Oracle deck for children. And it's just so beautiful. And she picked a card and she's like, you know, what is the meaning of this? I'm the Black Jaguar? What is that? And then we just kind of get into the description.

And then all of a sudden, you know, she was like living into the architecture. type of, you know, stealth and strength and empowerment and courageousness and, you know, nurture. All these things are part of the life of, like she drew that card. And it was like, and it was also really empowering for her family to see her in that light. But she began to embody it just through the suggestion. She picked that card. That was her card.

She had a thought about what to do. I need to know. And it was all about the Black Panther or the Jaguar, you know, and the medicine that it brings. And suddenly she could imagine herself greater than she had. I think that that is such a poetic piece for people, regardless of their age, to do is imagine yourself better than you have, or imagine yourself better than you can. Like, that might be the medicine right there that can, that can take people to a good place when they're at a place that might not be so good. Maybe that's the reason why we're not at a good place right now is we've lost our imagination. I think there's some truth to that.

Well, you know, we're just inundated with the daily list and survival. Yeah. We're just so many just treading water, keeping afloat or working so hard at, you know, the life we want to create for ourselves or the legacy we hope to leave behind it, you know, it's hard to imagine anything different. It's, it's, you know, unless you go to festivals or get to dances. Right, right. With George Monty on his True Life podcast. I mean, I tell you, my heart is amplified a thousandfold. It's that spark. And I, in some ways, I think that it's that spark that everybody has in

And you can change the way you feel as fast as you can change what you're focusing on. Sometimes you need to go to a ceremony, but you don't have to. You can go up to your bedroom or you can go downstairs and see something you love. And that can be the spark. Your cat can jump right under your lap and come and say hello. And, you know, it's fascinating. But before I let you go, this has been a wonderful conversation, by the way. And I told you before we started, like, this is going to be one of those ones, right?

It's how it always happens. If you hadn't said that, that set the tone. And like, because, you know, I was nervous. I'm like, what if he asked me about something I don't know? You know, like every time. I know. It's like, I don't know. And then you said that.

And I was like, it's going to be okay. Yeah. Like, I knew exactly. I'm like, oh, it's going to be epic. It's the levity. The levity you brought. Because literally right before you type that, I'm like, oh, not meant to be. Okay.

You like, check that down. And I'm like, wait. Or, you know, the worst fear is like, oh, he doesn't really want to talk to me. he just sent me a duddling. And I'm like, okay, you said exactly the right thing that I needed to hear. Sorry. Well, I think you have said exactly all the right things everybody listening to this needs to hear. And I'm so thankful to get to hear some of the stories.

And I'm hopeful that this will be one of many cups of tea that we have. Before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Oh, gosh. Well, I just signed a contract with the old arise producer to do a festival next summer in July called Rise and Vives. I'm very excited about that. I wasn't sure I had another one in me, but I just want to be with the team. I just want to create that space.

Anyone can find me, Ava at Mokshajourneys.com if you're interested in that aspect. my RhythmSanctuary.com website is a little out of date, but I assure you that we are alive and well and meeting every Thursday. That's another way to get a hold of me or, you know, just meditate and send a signal out. I think I'll hear it. But what's coming up is the fall harvest. I'm very excited about that. Some time at home, I'm finishing my modules to get my certification as a Moksha, Solisiband Guide. I'm the ceremonial medicine woman, and I really thought that would be all that I had in me to do with Moksha journeys. But of course, everyone is just to be so fully embraced on the team in Jioti Ma. I mean, having her in my world as a mentor and a teacher and a friend,

fast becoming through the times that we've spent together, I want to soak it all up. So every opportunity through Moxha is something I want to take advantage of and just move through and just be with these incredible co-creatives. I mean, it's just, so that's what's really exciting me right now is that I'm getting through my modules. I'm going to be in a place to take my test and to maybe join on one of those 28 days in Oregon, which is not too far from my son and my grandson. So that'll be fun. And yeah, that's coming up every Thursday. Yeah, all the good things. I got a couple trips in there, but yeah. It's so fascinating now is what's feeling really good. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. It's a beautiful time. And I hope that everybody has enjoyed this conversation as much as we have.

It's a true pleasure. And I'm really thankful to get to see strategies and hear stories about, about how to maybe look for meeting in your life and maybe see that sunshine a little bit brighter and see the clouds, that silver lining that is holding you tightly. And I don't know, I just think that this is a great conversation. I really appreciate it. And hang on for one briefly afterwards. I want to talk to you briefly afterwards. But ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.

I hope we have a beautiful weekend. I hope that you realize the blessings in store for you. Or not only better than you imagine, but better than you can imagine. And that's all we've got for this. today, ladies and gentlemen, Aloha. So good. All right.