TrueLife - Richard Drew Snyder - The Existential Wounds of War

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/I embarked on a personal journey of growth and healing from the psychological and existential wounds of war from my past military service. Along the way, I was coached and guided in discovering many tools for more holistic health, as well as creating existential meaning to help deal with the suffering I encountered. I now work to pass these tools of healing and growth on to others.As a mental health counselor in private practice, I strive to provide counseling for those in my community who otherwise struggle to access mental health services. My focus is on helping my clients heal from past trauma, create meaning in their current circumstances, and find hope for their future.I also love working with and helping couples strengthen their relationship and am certified Level 2 in the Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy (PACT).http://linkedin.com/in/richard-drew-snyder-273738bbhttps://www.mokshajourneys.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. Oh, everybody's having a beautiful day. The sun is shining where I am, and I hope that you know that the sun is shining down on you. the world is full of miracles and unexpected twists and turns. And right when you find yourself in a predicament, the sun seems to creep through the clouds

and shine on us today. So I have an incredible individual array of sunlight, the one and only, Richard Drew Snyder. Excuse me. Richard Drew Snyder. You may have caught him in a last podcast I did with the team at Moxha Journey. He's doing some really incredible work. He's a mental health counselor, a psychedelic psychotherapist, certified psychedelic-assisted therapy provider, a veteran in private practice, and he's providing counseling to those in the

community who otherwise struggle to access mental health services. Drew, I'm stoked you here today, my friend. How are you? Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm doing really well. Yeah, I think you should be doing well. What you're accomplishing with your practice and what's happening at Mocha is incredible. Maybe you could talk a little bit about, I'm kind of jumping in here with both feet, but maybe we can give people a little bit of background and why you're so excited about the way things are unfolding the way they are. Yeah. Oh, well, that is a pretty broad question. Where to start? Well, I mean, I am incredibly passionate about how psychedelic can help with mental health, what they can do to help heal the underlying injury that resides in our body and our psyche,

you know, and give a different way of thinking about what has maybe happened in somebody's life. And the reason I'm so excited about all of that is because it personally happened for me in a time where I was really desperate for something to work for me. Yeah. So I guess, yeah, if you want to hear all of that. I can go back and kind of give you the background of what led up to that point, if that's where we're out. Like there's this quote that I wrote down and I highlighted it.

It's so amazing to me. And it's this, I embarked on a personal journey of growth and healing from the psychological and existential wounds of war from my past. Like, can you just maybe start there? Like, that is such a beautiful, incredible insight. And I think it speaks volumes of the way. you think, how you interact with people, the way you figured out how to solve that in your life is contagious, I think, and it helps. It's probably why you're so good at what you're doing.

So maybe you can unpack that for us. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've always known that I wanted to help people in some way. Ever since I was young, I thought I want to be in some kind of career that, you know, makes an impact on people, helps people. I didn't quite know what that would you know, when I was really little, I thought, like, I'm going to be a detective and solve crimes. And I would, I would, you know, just, so I got a corncob pipe and I would walk around with it. You know, and I would collect missing children posters and hope that one day I'd spot one of them. And, you know, so it's always been a part of what I really wanted to do. and I did some humanitarian work overseas.

I got married pretty young, and my wife and I lived in China with this minority people group up in the mountains for a little while, working with them, and helping to document their culture and their language because it was dying out. And yeah, so it's always been something I really wanted to be a part of. But then we started having children, and I started to feel the pressures of providing for a family and, you know, being a poor

volunteer person overseas was, he wasn't quite cutting it. So I moved back, but that was during the crash of 2008. And I was just trying to get my feet under me and working a couple part-time jobs and it wasn't going great. So I thought, well, what's another career that I could jump? into that provide for my family that I could still make a difference and do something good. And I thought, well, and I've always wanted to serve my country. I want to, I want to, you know, make an impact that way and maybe help people. So I decided to join the Army. And

I fought really hard for a job in the Army that I thought would make a big difference for people. and I ended up getting this job. It was called a human intelligence collector, which is colloquially known as an interrogator, actually. And yeah, so I was trained in that. And some people might think automatically jump to like some movie scene that, you know, where somebody's being put through pain or something. And I assure everybody that there was nothing like that. But also, you know, like, I still had this drive to, to help people

to do good to, like, make a difference. And so maybe I was a little naive and coming at it kind of like a Boy Scout. But I, every time I sat down with somebody, I genuinely wanted to connect with them as a human being and understand them and understand their motivations and to try to get at the core of what really drove them and and then and befriend them and try to get them to open up to me that way. But there was another track that this job also took me in, which I was much more suited to me and my personality and what I wanted to do. And that was to go out into like the villages in Afghanistan and talk to people, like make friends with people, just, you know, village elders and people who might know information about where the bombs are hiding, where the bad guys are.

And I thought, okay, so I can really make a difference doing this. And I threw myself into it as, you know, as hard as I could to try to accomplish a mission in Afghanistan and to save lives. but through that, you know, and really trying my hardest to do that, I was running up against politics and the military industrial complex and the entrenched situation that was very complex in Afghanistan. And I saw a lot of tragedy. I saw a lot of pain and, you know, despite my best efforts, there was people that that died.

there was people that, you know, were friends of mine that disappeared. You know, it was just, it was very hard. And then on top of all of that, there was there was a lot of stress coming from my superiors. And in some instances, some things happened where I just felt like I was asked to really go out on a limb to do to really, you know, do something good. And I would do my best at that. And then no one would have my back in it. it was kind of everyone pretending for masses. And that led to a real, what I didn't realize at the time,

but I now know, I started experiencing real moral injury, just existential injury. And I really at that time started developing post-traumatic stress disorder. And it took a while for me to realize what was happening with that, too. I was a wreck. I wasn't sleeping well. And I was just, I had, part of this was self-created. I had so much expectation for myself to really try to do something worthwhile and good.

And part of it was just the system, you know, but all of that stress, the constant adrenaline and cortisol, all just coursing through my body. I didn't realize how it was affecting me, my brain, my physiology. And then on a, you know, on a existential, spiritual level, I was really suffering. Yeah. So, so then, you know, my career was kind of taking off in the, in the Army. And I got, I also did a tour in Central Africa. supporting special forces, looking for Joseph Coney. And I don't know if you've heard of that group, the LRA and had a child army that he had.

Right. Abducted all these kids, forcing them to fight and horrible. Yeah, horrible things. And my job was to like, if anyone came out of that group, if we found somebody or captured somebody, I would interview them.

I would try to get them to tell them. So I was hearing all these stories, these traumatic stories of these now adults, but as children, they had been forced to do terror, you know, like kill their parents. They had been forced to, you know, really do unspeakable, terrible things and live out in the bush. And I mean, many of them were HIV positive and just, you know, just the unthinkable things. Yeah. And I just saw so much pain and suffering. It's really hard.

You take that on. How can you not live that part of that experience by living that experience? Right. I'm sorry, man. Yeah. So obviously, yeah, I had a lot to come to terms with and work through. And to understand, you know, just seeing all this human pain and suffering. And wanting to make some kind of impact and often feeling like just whatever I was trying to do, you know, it just wasn't enough or like there, I was blocked, you know, by again, like this military industrial complex.

You know, I felt like if you would just let me off the leash, I could go do something really good. But, you know, it was just so much red tape and it was difficult. So, so after that, you know, I think, um, again, I was really experiencing a lot of stress and mental health stuff. And I wasn't fun to be around with my family. I was, every little thing, you know, I remember like one of my kids dropped a fork at the dinner table one time and it clattered and I, you know, barked at them, you know, like, and then realized like, you know, wow, like it was just a fork and I losing it,

you know, so I realized I really need to get some help. So I started, I went and got some therapy and counseling and started getting medications and, and I, and then at that time, I decided that I needed to get out of the military just for my own well-being and find myself. And, you know, through all of that job, I had done some therapy, or not therapy. I had, I had, I had been like a peer support kind of counselor to a lot of people, you know, who would seek me out. And I knew that was something that I would, that I was drawn to, the other people maybe saw in me for whatever reason. So I thought I'll go finish school and become a, become a therapist. And, you know, I was definitely the, the trope of, like, the wounded healer.

You know, because I'm just dealing with my own stuff as I, as I tried to go back to college and I now have four kids and, you know, just trying to make it, um, had a part-time job for a little while. And, um, but, you know, using my GI Bill and the VA, um, support. which was helpful. They did their best, but I was, and I was on all these medications, like, and medications for the side effects of those medications. And all of it was helping me kind of get to a place where I was functional. I was, I was settled enough to, to go to school, to be, you know, with my family,

but I, you know, I was had a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression. and it was helping me function but not healing the underlying wounds that were there. So I, you know, it was still really searching for like, for what could help me to heal this. And, you know, I do have a spiritual faith that I kind of grew up with and that I was a big part of, you know, helping me have like some kind of existence. anchor. And, but I still was definitely struggling a lot. And then I heard while I was in school to become a counselor, I heard that there was research being done around how psychedelics could help with depression, help heal PTSD,

that there was some studies that had been done. And so I started diving into it. And I was raising a very conservative home, very, very like, you know, drugs are bad. So I had never, I had never dabbled in anything. I, I, I, I was, I was, you know, I did everything. My parents asked. And so, you know, I hadn't even tried, like, weed until, I, until actually it was, like,

legalized in, in Oregon after I was out of the military. I thought, you know, maybe this could help with my anxiety. And I tried a little bit. And that was, like, the first time. as an adult that I tried some kind of mind altering substance, you know. So, so this was very new territory for me. And I, but I really, I thought, you know, I'm desperate. And, you know, so I want to look at this research.

And I really, I dove into it and I started reading books around it. And there's some great ones out there. And the one that convinced my wife was Michael Paul. book, how to change your mind. And then she's like, you have to do this. But I was kind of already on that track and thinking that way, and that this is something I really should try. So, yeah, with a lot of intention and a lot of preparation and research behind it,

I kind of did it in a way that I don't recommend for people. I did my own. My first like two journeys were just, you know, on my own. And thankfully, they went really well. Again, I did a lot of preparation around it to get myself, you know, in the right frame of mind for it. And I ended up having this, incredible healing experience. I had, I was able to connect with the divine in a way that I felt,

you know, this, this love, you know, for me, for everything around me and, and like, and just seeing like how, how much maybe doesn't make sense on one aspect to me, you know, on, this level, but maybe on some higher levels, it could, there was things made a little more sense to me in, um, in this kind of existential way. And yeah, I had a lot of experiences, uh, through that was just so it, they're kind of, you know, difficult to put into words, but they were, um, they showed me another way of being able to think and being able to feel. It showed me, um, you know, what I experienced was that there is more than just this physical experience and plain. It's not, you know, this isn't the only thing of this suffering that's that I have encountered.

Like that there's so much, so many other levels and layers that's possible to experience. And so I had kind of, I had titrated some of my medications so that I could have this experience, actually, because I knew, you know, SSRIs can really block the psychedelic experience, especially with mushrooms. And so, but then after that, I was able to finish titrating off my medications, pretty much all of them, pretty quickly, and felt so much more stable and resourced and grounded to be able to continue my my the physical healing that still needed to happen because you know i i found out later that all that cortisol and adrenaline that runs through your brain when you're in that high state of stress for so long it actually eats away at like your

hippocampus so you know my memory it was just that it was non-existent almost it was pretty scary um it's gotten a lot better but i still feel like i'm actually healing part of the of my physiology. And, but that moral injury, for me, this was, this was the thing that really started to help me to come to terms with things, to help me to, like, to see from a different perspective and to let go of some things and to experience that feeling of unity and love that, that I really know. needed reassurance around because I had seen so much pain and devastation that I was questioning, you know, everything. So yeah, so that that brings me to, yeah, I'm becoming a therapist and I've

just had these experiences of profound healing. And so I knew that I wanted to work as a therapist and with more existential meaning-making type of approach. I read Victor Frankel's Mansearch for Meaning, which was really profound for me. It was really moving and helpful to kind of reframe like this existential struggle around like making meaning out of your, that something that is inherently maybe meaningless, but you have an opportunity.

need to make meaning from it. So I really kind of started to develop that as a framework for the therapy that I provide for people. And meanwhile, I knew that I would sit with some of my clients and I would see them stuck in a way that I had been stuck. And I knew that as helpful as therapy is, and as much as like I saw them, I saw many of my clients improving and there were some that I felt like they needed some additional help, something, you know, something like what I had experienced to really like help

them over that hump to get them out of that that default mode network, like thinking well-worn neural pathways of this way, you know, and break them out into like use, you know, their whole brain experiencing something that they thought wasn't possible maybe. And so when when organ started to petition for psychedelic therapy, well, it ended up not becoming psychedelic therapy. It's just a non-medical model, psilocybin use. But when they started to petition for this, I, you know, I knew I had to be a part of it. And so I was part of that campaign and to the best, you know, that I could be. advocating for that and starting to talk about my experience of this, even though I had come from a very conservative community that was very opposed to psychedelics, you know, and because of, you know,

the 60s and 70s. And, and, yeah, when it was passed in Oregon, I was thrilled and knew I had to had to become like so i so i um sought out training in psychedelic therapy and i i went through the integrative psychiatry institute which is a phenomenal um phenomenal organization that really has a pretty holistic lens of a very clinical model and um and looking at mdMA therapy ketamine therapy and psilocybin therapy um and it's like a three months of each one and really intensive. So I got a lot out of that and through that, you know, got certified as a psychedelic assistant therapist through them.

And then I met Rose, Jotima. And when we were starting to really advocate for psilocybin use in Jackson County, Oregon. So I was a part of the campaign with them and trying to try to, to make sure that we didn't veto that in our county and we started working in Colorado, when Colorado passed their community share program because we could legally work there. And I do have some stories about like some of the therapeutic outcomes and breakthroughs that I saw that I was a part of. Because I also kind of became known that I was in this work.

And so there would be people, even before this was legalized in Oregon, you know, there was people that were aware of how beneficial this could be, you know, obtained their own stuff and then asked me to like come in and, you know, like some harm reduction. Sure. fitting work for them, right? So, yeah. So, yeah, I have some interesting stories from that.

But yeah, that's the overview of how I really started to get into this psychedelic-assisted therapy. First off, thanks for sharing that. It goes a long way into describing not only who you are and the way you see the world, but I think it goes a long way in describing how the world works. And as I'm sitting here, like I almost tear up thinking about a child that goes to the tragedy of being kidnapped and forced to do horrendous things. And then you having that story transferred on to you,

hey, hold this, but hold all my brother's ones too. Because we're done, we can't hold it anymore. We're going to hold it forever, but now you hold it. But then you take that. And somehow, through all, or some sort of divine transformation, you hold on to that long enough to turn it into a tool to extract pain from other people later in life. Like, you know, it's like, oh, so that's why there's pain.

So here you hold this pain, Drew. I want you to hold the pain of all these people until you can't hold it anymore. And then figure out a way to use that in a way to extract the pain out of other people. It's so damn beautiful. if it wasn't so tragic in a way. And that's, after hearing your story, I understand a lot more about you and why, why you're so good at what you do,

because you had to hold onto that for so long and almost destroyed you and your family. Like that's the true meaning of Victor Frankl's book. It's holding on to something like that. Find the meaning. No, that's not it. Find the meaning. No, that's not it.

You almost want to explode. Do you find a damn meaning in there, man? I'm like, thank you for being strong enough and not only do it, but find a way to help. other people do it. Like that's got to feel pretty good to get to that point, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you're right that that I had to do something with it. And I think that sometimes, you know, I hesitate to say that like I went through what I went through or, you know, the pain that I saw, like that that I had to do that in order to become who I am.

I don't know what comes to do that. Why? I don't know. I hesitate because it may be true, but I hesitate because I hesitate because I hesitate because I think sometimes what we go through is maybe inherently meaningless. And we have to come to terms with that. But what we can then do is say, how do I make meaning from that? And I think maybe that's where the alchemy comes in.

Yeah. Where, you know, sometimes bad things just happen and you can't say like, well, that happened for a reason, you know, like, you have to say, like, what reason can I make out of that to move on? Because I, you know, because I think, and it may be true. I mean, maybe it, you know, I hear different existential or spiritual theories about, like, you know, maybe we, we, we, we. beforehand, before living this life, decided to go through these things because of certain lessons we wanted to learn and take on. And maybe that's, maybe that's true. But, but, but I find, um, the easiest way to like, to, to reconcile this because then you can start getting into questions about like, you know, well, what kind of, what kind of universe or kind of God?

Video cut out. Hopefully you can hear me. Oh, cut out just a little bit there. Yeah. Okay. So, so yeah. But I think, you know, there may be ways to really to come to terms with that and reconcile that. But the easiest way I found to ret to alchemize that pain is to say, what will I do to create meaning from this thing that feels inherently meaningless, you know, and to, to.

I have to do something with it. And so for me, it's, it's, I can now, I can relate now with people who've been through trauma, who've been through really painful things. I've been through it and I've seen some of the worst of it, some of the worst of what humanity is capable of and still connected with the human being, the soul that's in there. And, yeah, so. It's beautiful.

I'm reminded of the quote that the line of good and evil run to the heart of every man. And we would all be lying to ourselves if we said we weren't capable of great, horrific things. And to be in the presence of it, whether you're an intelligence officer or you're a truck driver or you're a nurse, we are confronted daily with this line of for lack of, we don't have the language to describe it. So we use words like good and evil. but it exists in all of us. And to see it manifest out there and realize you're a part of it, you have to do something to heal it.

And otherwise, that's what creates that existential stress and that anxiety and that depression is like, I am part of this. I am causing this. What can I do to fix it? And when you can begin to find that meaning, because I think you're right, I think it's simultaneously meaningless and the most meaningful thing possible.

It's both and at the same time. And when you can find that meaning, all of a sudden you provide framework you when you make meaning you become the ember that begins to grow bright for someone else to follow and that is is the magic that resides in all of us when you can become that spark when you can create meaning then you can light a pathway for everybody else and i think that's a lot of the work that moxia is doing but i think that's a there's a certain specific divinity within you, Drew, that like, because of all that things, you had to go through that. Like, and I wouldn't hesitate to say it. You had to do that. That had to happen in order for you to

have the education, the ability, and the willingness and the divinity to pull that out of other people with great, who much is given, much is expected. And you may not think being given the burden of children on their last day of life is a gift. But damn it, if it isn't. Like, look at what you're done. Like look what you're doing. Like that is the gift, man. And it's a weird way the world works. And that's kind of far out there. What do you think?

Yeah. Well, I think you're right. I do. I agree with you. We're getting into like some serious, you know, like mysteries of the universe here. But, but, yeah, that I think that I had to go through those things in order to, to do what I, what I really always knew that I wanted to do, which was to help people.

So, and now I'm, now I can on a, on a different level. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate and understand. And as to the, you know, everyone's experiences is unique and different, but like, but I can get it just through the lens of the pain that I've seen. Yeah. And then, and then knowing, how I can be of service and how I can help others

alchemize their trauma and their pain into something more beautiful. And it feels like a very fulfilling mission that I've been able to step into. And I'm also actually still working with. the Integrative Psychiatry Institute. I'm now one of their lead facilitators training cohorts of therapists and doctors and nurses that are coming through to become psychedelic assistant practitioners themselves. And so helping be a part of that is really meaningful, helping, you know, like the clients that I am helping through Moxha is really, really meaningful.

I have a story. Are you kidding me? Absolutely, man. Please. So there was a couple that I was working with for a long time. They were working through a lot of pain and trauma from different things that had happened in their life. They had lost their house in a fire.

They had been trying for like 12 years to get pregnant and couldn't and they were coming to terms with that. You know, they tried everything and it and it just was not working. So they always thought, you know, we're supposed to be parents and now we're not. So what do our lives look like? And how do we step into like this life, you know, that we have and mourn what we, you know, don't? And, yeah, and there was a lot of manifestations of that grief and that kind of the trauma that, you know, that they were navigating. And so, yeah, I had worked with them for a while. And finally, it kind of became apparent, like that there was some stuckness there and some, like, maybe some moral injury for them that I could help them move through.

So they ended up deciding to do a journey with mushrooms. And they had me come in. So they ended up both journeying simultaneously, which has to be done very carefully and intricately. And so we ended up deciding that she was going to take a little more, he was going to take less so that they could still have an experience together. but he could be there to support her because really she had more to work through and probably was going to have a bigger experience. And that's how it ended up unfolding. So, you know, she like ended up really processing through so much pain and trauma

and existential, just angst and frustration at God, you know, like why was this her life? And at the end of it, they felt so reconnected to each other, to love to the divine, they felt like they were themselves again and they felt, you know, just ready to face like this new chapter in their life. And so, you know, we continued to do integration afterward and they were coming in and talking with me and we're integrating their experience. And like a monthish later, they came in and they said, so it turns out five days after we did that journey, we conceived and we're pregnant. After, you know, 12 years of trying everything, somehow this, and I had been, they came in,

I might get emotional. They came in at a moment where, you know, I was doubting, like, am I doing the right thing? Am I really? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing with people? people. And they said this, you know, and it was this miraculous thing that like, it blew me away. I took, I was, did not see this as a possible outcome of this by any mean. But somehow the mushrooms had allowed them to open and heal enough, whether, whether just emotionally and psychologically or physically, they were. were open enough to conceive and like have their, you know, their dream come true of having a child. And now they come in and talk with me and their son naps in my arms while I, while they, you know, talk through stuff and they, you know, say like, I'm his godfather.

Because, um, oh, the symbolism. Yeah. You know, and so that's, I like telling that story because, you know, just the magic of, of this is, you know, unfathomable. And I'm not saying like every couple who's trying to have a child, you know, that this will cure them and they will be able to. I'm not, for whatever reason, the things lined up to be able to have this happen for them. And it just goes to show like the healing power of, of working with this medicine. Yeah. If you've tried everything, why wouldn't you try that? And I think it speaks to the power of connection and healing.

You know, I've been toying with this idea of we as a society, at least in the West, we focus on illness and sickness. And these things are contagious and no one wants to be around it. But if that's true, if illness, like these things like the flu were contagious, then why wouldn't healing be contagious? And wouldn't that explain the idea that happens when, you get in a group, when you get in ceremony, when you start talking to people, everybody starts healing. We heal from the ground up the same way the mushrooms grow.

And why wouldn't there be, if people can't have kids, it seems like they're not connecting on some level. And I'm not pretending to know what it is, but I am saying that if you used to have a spiritual, mystical journey together, you're connecting on a level that you haven't connected with in a long time. There's real connections that happen that way. And if you want to know the way people's relationships work, look at the way. way the plant root structure works. Look at the way mycelium grows together because that's the way we grow together, regardless of what spiritual ideas you were brought up in. Like there's so much beauty and truth in all of the scriptures. But I think it's safe to say that we can learn a lot

from the environment. I think it was one of my favorite gospels is the gospels of Thomas, where he speaks about, you know, doubting Thomas they called him. And he was the only one to touch the wounds of Christ because he didn't believe he had to see for himself. And I think to myself, so many of us that find ourselves broken, we're the ones, we're the people that are like, I have to see this for myself. You know, I have to see the wound to believe it. And that's us, man. We get broken because we're so stubborn and we have to see it.

But when you do see it, you cannot, you can no longer not believe because you saw it with your own eyes. And whether that's having a kid, whether that is, you know, getting a. emotional when you see these miracles happen. The miracles are happening every day if you just open your eyes. And I think that the psilocybin, I think that the society we're building, I think that the work you're doing, the integration of you bringing nurses and doctors in to have these experiences are bringing back together the science and the spirituality of. And it's so, you know, I hesitate to use the word romantic only for a moment. It is romantic. It's beautiful. And it's something that we should be

embracing. And I love it. And I can't help to get emotional when I think about it, too. I I see it happening with parents who have children that are autistic having journeys and then going, oh my gosh, I, these are crying because they're like, I'm the one that's separating us, you know. They want to cry thinking about it. Like, yeah, get out of your own way just for a minute. And you spoke earlier about the divine nature of the experience. And so often we think divine as a man in the clouds or we think divinity of this force that's greater than us. But maybe divinity could be described as getting to see the world in a way in which you've never seen it before.

Because there is something so divine about that that you just get out of your own way and you can see your life unfolding the same way a vine climbs up a tree. And it knows to flower at a 47 degree angle on August 23rd at 3.27 p.m. Probably 3.33 p.m. just to make it a better metaphor. But, you know, it's weird how that can happen. I think that we're part of something bigger. And when you realize that, watch you. out because you realize you're part of something bigger than you can imagine and you had to go through. These things were necessary, man.

I get emotional too, man. Thanks for letting me share that. Yeah. No, thank you. I love that. That's beautiful. And I completely agree. You know, I think about the more clinical model that we have around the therapeutic use of these

is a very individual inward experience. And I do agree with that. that I think that there's so much so much healing that can come from that inward experience. But I don't think it's the only way. And I think we also need to have, we need to have communal group experiences as well that are more, you know, like interactive and outward. And I've had some experiences with ayahuasca ceremony that's like this. And I, you know, and that comes straight from lineages and traditions of just the community, the tribe coming together and everybody together is kind of healing.

And you're having your own experience, but it's, but the healing is in relationship as well. And, and the way that the integrative psychiatry institute is, is having the practicum for, for these nurses and doctors, the cohorts that are coming through is they actually have groups of like of 22 come in and we split them in half. And so 10 or journey, 10 to 12 are journeying together on one day and the other half are like sitting for them. And then they switch and the next day the other half all journey together. And it's in it's in a room that feels at first a little tight. you're like, I don't know how 12 people on mushrooms are going to do it here.

You know, and we're all fairly, you know, we all have been through our stuff and we're all wounded healers. And so, yeah, everybody's working through their grief and their pain. And but, and it's not always that way. Some people are are just laughing hysterically. And, and there's this group synergy and synchronicity that starts happening. sometimes even, you know, before people come, but as they're paired with the person they're paired with, it's often, you know, like the perfect person, even if maybe off the bat, they're like, I don't know if I'm going to, you know.

But it ends up being like this, this organism that evolves into like this healing experience for everybody, usually, mostly. And even sometimes the difficult or painful things that come up are there things that kind of needed to come up. Yeah. And that's, you know, like the grist for the mill. That's the therapeutic thing. So, so yeah, this, I think within that group process and hearing everybody else's, like what their experience was, what they were going through it, it amplifies what you just experienced and what you had. And so, so I think we need both of these things like this, you know, we need to be able to have the opportunity to go in with maybe, you know, headphones and eye shades so we can have a. very just like releasing of our ego and just riding the waves of consciousness. And then there's also something to be said for this group experience and in healing and having that contagious healing like you were saying. I love that.

So this brings me to the idea of fragmentation, propaganda and like mass sort of delirium. You know, when we look at the society we live in, it seems that so much of marketing is based on momentum. So much of marketing, so much of the world we live in is trying to get people to see a narrative in a certain way. And when you do that, there's a great book. I don't, I usually have it right in front of me. Of course, the day I want to show it in front of me. Actually, I do have right here. Everybody should check out this book by Edward Bernays and it's called Propaganda. And basically what this book is is it's a way in which people can get people to think certain things.

does that mean? If I want you in this group to think a certain set of things, then I have to sync up my brain waves to your brain waves. I got to get the cosines. I got to get all the signs going together. And then we move in a coordinated effort. That can be done through an authoritarian system in a lot of ways with modern media and, you know, so much I think of our mental illness is just this fragmentation of everyone going all these different crazy ways. But I think what's happening in those group ceremonies is that there is a sinking, up of the way we're thinking. You would mention, isn't it interesting that the people that they get matched up with,

like this person will never fit. Like, their waves are probably like just, they're, they're, one's high, one's low, or they're just hitting each other. But what happens when we get on the same wavelength? There's all these metaphors in our language, hey, let's get on the same page. Let's get on the same wavelength. Might that be what's happening in these ceremonies? And might that be, might we become an instrument for healing?

We may become an instrument for anything in those areas, but it seems, It's a natural progression for the human condition to get in sync with one another. And when that sync is happening on a level that is beneficial for humanity, we do become that instrument of healing. We've been so fragmented and so divided for so long. And I really think that's a big part of what the mushrooms and these different entheogens and plant medicines are doing is that they are bringing us back in sync and in alignment with what's right for us and helping us make sense of these past tragedies.

and maybe you could speak a little bit more. I don't know. I've never done or been in a ceremony with multiple people when that happened. What is that like while maybe you could be on mushrooms and what is it like seeing it not being on mushrooms? Or maybe you can speak to that. Yeah. Well, at this last group that I just helped to facilitate,

you know, we build a context. of intention with everyone and of safety and, you know, to the best of our ability. And I think there is kind of like a coming together and everybody is starting to get more on the same wavelength. And we really try to make it a sacred intention and to bring in the sacred. as much as we can and to navigate doing that in a way that it isn't pulling too much from one tradition or another because, you know, we want to be pretty inclusive of everyone. So and, but there's a, I think we're doing that well and we're bringing in the sacred and then what unfolds ends up being, you know, sometimes I'm questioning it like,

again, at this last one, there was, there was somebody who was just laughing hysterically. couldn't stop and he was just like ah like he was like mad that he couldn't stop laughing and his his uh you know he was like i'm gonna be in so much pain tomorrow and and i kind of was thinking like you know i'm worried that this is disruptive like to you know like and he was really he was trying to restrain himself because he knew like it was so intense but like he just had this laughter that was just like um i mean it's just from the belly and um and i i was worried that that other people weren't able to go inward enough because they kind of kept getting pulled out by him.

But it was contagious. Other people would start laughing in the room. And it would just start echoing. And so there'd be these waves of laughter through the whole room that would happen. And then, you know, and then he would try really hard to go back in. And he'd be holding a pillow over his face. And I could just see his body, you know, moving. And then so later we talk about it.

You know, at the end of the day, we're talking about what everybody's experience was. was and it was incredible to see how integral that was for so many other people's journeys in the room that that his laughter helped them heal certain things that they were going through that that what the group experience of that was was something that was so additive and so like it was so beautiful and people were were there was people that had that pulled different meaning from it for their own journey. But it was like it was just this collective experience of like what people needed was happening and he was helping to provide that. And so had I gone over there and like shut it down, you know, we're like, yeah, you know, it would have been a loss.

And so trusting that, that there is something happening on a on a collective, unconscious level that that really needs to happen where we're all helping each other heal. It's profound. It makes me think, like, you can see that as fractal. Like, if we can draw from that particular ceremony, that his laughter, while seemingly disruptive to you and I or other people, actually was the thing that was needed for other people to heal. Yeah.

Might that be a good way for us to look at our lives? this person over here that's really annoying me. Maybe it's necessary. Maybe that person tried to tell me what's wrong with me. Maybe this thing I don't like in them is the thing I need to work on. It's like, oh, that's the, in some ways, I think we're beginning to communicate for the first time in a long time. Like that, that's what, that's what this healing is, is like, oh, I understand. You're in pain. That's why you're acting that way. Oh, my God. I didn't know. I just, I thought you, George, I just thought you were an asshole. I didn't know you're in pain, George, you know?

But like, wait, and then all of a sudden I can feel good because like, oh, I am. Thank you for noticing. You know, I was going about the wrong way. I was being mean to try to tell you I was in pain. That's a wrong. That's a dumb way to do it. You know, and it's like this understanding that we're beginning to have some compassion for each other.

And on some levels, I think that the world speaks to us through us. And it's, I'm, I think that we share this idea and so many of us in this space, that what's happening is nothing short of a miracle. If people are paying attention, you're seeing these things heal, like in real time. And it's so inspiring and it's emotional. And I hope that more people begin to become infected with this idea of healing. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, we need it. We need it. This makes me think of something. I'm not 100% sure for like how much I can share. But I just yesterday was sent like a proposal that's being floated out there about bringing together climate scientists and climate advocates and having them journey in a group to come up with creative solutions for like how we can, like, better protect and heal the world. So, you know, like that makes me think of that. And I think there's so many other contexts where this could be so helpful.

I do a lot of couples work. It's actually one of my fortees is working with couples. I love it. And I've been trained in the psychobiological approach to couple therapy, packed by Stan Tatkin. And if anyone out there wants to hear some amazing books on on couples work and how to how to get along with your partner, stuff by Stan Tatkin is like what I really has, it has helped in my relationship immensely. And I think that it works, it's going to work perfectly with psychedelics, that approach to couple therapy. And,

there's an audio book out there by Stan Taken called Your Brain on Love. And that's one of my favorites, if people want to look that up. But so I think as we, and more studies are starting to be done, there's one being done. I think at the VA with couples where there's one person who has PTSD, but they're bringing in the couple to work through stuff together. and they're using MDMA and having a lot of success. And I also have seen how helpful it can be to have your defenses come down a little bit and have just be a little more open and being able to connect with your partner and heal things

and see each other without all of the defenses and the walls up and without your amygdala firing off, you know, that you're in danger somehow because of attachment issues. And so there's just so much healing that can happen from this in so many different areas. And I think we can get really creative. And I'm so excited for like what the future holds as we really find the niches for this and with using different medicines for different things. Yeah. I think it has the, you know, when the, when the, when the,

the walls of the old regime crumble down, we are left to imagine what is possible. And I think that is what's happening. We have a real opportunity to reimagine and reestablish relationships, what it means, what it means for our future, what it means for the Capuna, what it means to be a bridge between the older and the younger generation. And I see it happening in real time. Like I see people coming together for the first time in a long time. And, you know, there's that old saying that says whether through inspiration or desperation, that's when change is made. You know, it just depends on how you want to, how you want to get there. Drew, we almost had like an hour.

Like, I felt like we just barely scratched the surface, man. I know you have, how are you doing on time? You got another appointment coming up or? Sure. No, I can flex. So if you got another question or something, you hit me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to go out. This is just me speculating here. And like, as you're speaking about this, and this may be a little far out there, but I'm going to throw it out here and just see what people think. You know, when I think about ceremonies, I think about symbolism. And one of my favorite symbols is like the yin and the yang symbol. It's like this paisley, right? And it's like this spot of chaos in order. And there's this black spot in this white paisley.

I think it would be an incredible ceremonial type setting if this is going to sound crazy, but I think it would be beautiful. What if that was the ceremony, like, was that people, you stand in the form of that Paisley. Like maybe people wear dark colors and then in this, they have a white robe person in the middle of that dot. Maybe that person is on MDMA while everybody in the black Paisley that's dressed in the black is on mushrooms. and then there's a white Paisley and then that person. Like it could be the two people that dislike each other the most. Maybe we're leaders.

Maybe it's Joe Biden and Putin. And they're both on like MDMA in the middle of the Paisley's and they're moving. I know I'm kind of, now I'm kind of rambling. But what I'm trying to say is I think there's a place for symbolic gesture inside the ceremony. What do you think? Absolutely. Oh, man.

That was out there. I'm sorry. I can't help it. Like my mind goes. I would agree completely that Sarah, that more kind of symbolism that you can bring into Sarah, the deeper it can be, the deeper can go. And you can really embody that even.

And in some ways, we actually are doing this in these groups at IPI. We have everybody, before the journey, we have all the journeyers come together in a circle, all the sitters stand around and they all hold hands and all the sitters come around them and put a hand on everybody's shoulders so they feel the support and the containment and the safety that's around them and then we have the licensed facilitators standing outside of that circle saying like we're holding you we've got this um and we all like we set an intention together we speak to the sacredness of what we're embarking on we honor the lineages that have that have

you know, cultivated these, these medicines for eons. And, and, and, and we try to like, bring in as much symbolism as we can,

but that's such a beautiful example. I, I'm, I'm thinking about, like, the Yin Yang symbol and like, and how, um, how deep that that is,

how deep that goes. And the climate scientists, right? Like, those two people are, at odds. But if they could symbolically be an opposite sides of the yin-yang symbol, they could see it, they could feel it, and if we introduce plant medicines or MDMA or a combination of both, and you have both groups aligned in that Paisley. Like you are a manifestation of order and chaos, and you're communicating on so many levels. You cannot help but thoroughly understand the problem,

that you're both part of it. You're the solution and the problem. And so are they. You know, it's like, how can you not come to an agreement after that? You know, it's like, oh, we're one thing. We are one thing fighting itself. What the hell are we doing? Of course, we're not getting anywhere. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I just saw something. I didn't look deeply into it, but I just saw that, like, scientists were able to take a photo of some kind of particle. And it was basically, it looked exactly like the yin-yang. symbol. And it was, yeah, like they were able to, it was a, I can't remember what kind of particle it was, but it was incredible to see it happening in nature, like that this exists. Like it's not, you know, so many levels to this.

But I think we need more ceremony and more and more. The thing with symbolism is that it conveys. much meaning, you know, a picture has a thousand words. I am totally botching that. I can't remember how that goes, but I think we need more ceremony in our culture to bring us together, to have this shared experience and to see the humanity in each other because we are so polarized. And but also to see like the beauty of like that we need like the yen and the yang. We need like to to find the best out of maybe our differences. And we don't all have to be exactly the same.

We are the same in it, but there's beauty in our difference. And how do we honor that and bring it together? You know, and I think the way to explore that is through symbolism, through ceremony. It's the, it's the ineffable. It's the language that we have forgotten. It's the Tower of Babel. It is this idea that the Elusinian mysteries tried to convey. You know, it's this idea that a homeless person and the Roman emperor could sit side by side in ceremony and experience the tragedy of a person losing their daughter.

And in doing so, the humanity between them is just that. They're the same, even though their stations in life are different. And that's what we're missing is this idea of relationship. And that's what ceremonies and, you know, I think it was Terrence McKinnon who spoke about an archaic revival. And I think that that is what ceremonies and rites of passage and rituals, they've been lacking for so long. People are so thirsty for it.

So much of symbolism feeds into it. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I'm trying to think of how I can cultivate more of that in my life. and I want to have more of that for my kids. And I'd love for my son to be in some kind of coming of age ceremony that has symbolism and meaning to it. That's communal that other men are a part of and, you know, just things like that. It's, I think it would be so meaningful to have that.

Yeah. And I, you know, Huxley's book, The Island speaks about, obviously he wrote Brave. So here's something interesting that I was speaking with Dr. Erica Dick about, and we were talking about the relationship between psychedelics and eugenics, where they kind of arise at the same time. And it's kind of like this weird relationship. But, you know, on some level, it seems like we as a species are trying to find a balance about what's right. And when we suppress that, we go down some dark corners. And I think you can see this relationship and these two avenues kind of diverge in two books. One of is Brave New World by Huxley.

Another one is The Island by Huxley. And in Brave New World, he talks about a world in which we can use disassociatives to be a very progressive, a very productive, a very sterile, a very predictable progression forward. And then his book, The Island, he speaks about perhaps there's a more very very very very very, very predictable progression forward. And in his book, The Island, he speaks about perhaps there's a more valuable way to move forward. And I bring up this because I think that a ceremony for a young adult, a psychedelic ceremony, where a young adult begins to learn that there's a lot more going on in this world than just a rush from the hospital to the graveyard. There's a lot more that is stranger than you, not only stranger than you imagine, but stranger than you can imagine. And when you give the child, when you give a child that understanding of the world,

you liberate them to create a world that's worth living in. And that is what I want my daughter to be in. And I think there's something to be said for a rite of passage. I don't know the age. Maybe it's 12. Maybe it's 14. I don't know. But in my mind, I'm reminded of Huxley's book where a young child goes with their mentors

to this church on a mountain and they overlook this vista. and they're read their divine rights. This is what the world is. It's a masterpiece. What are you going to do? What are your gifts? If we had a world like that, I think that the possibilities could be endless.

And I think it could be so much more freeing and tying together. But I crave that right of passage for my child too. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I love the way you put that. Because it's so beautiful to think of what, could be possible when you experience what entheogens can show you that there is so much more

that you can create or experience. And what would our world look like if, if, you know, I wish I had experienced this as a very young man, you know, just to help me through some of my existential angst and finding my place. And I mean, sometimes it brings up more questions and it answers in some ways. But I think that we're hungry to know that there is more beyond just like this very physical rat race of an existence. And I think there's studies coming out right now showing that these generations, are the most disconnected, like depressed generations because they feel so isolated, even though they're the most technologically connected, still feeling so isolated.

And I can't think of a better, you know, antidote to that lack of connection than coming together in ceremony and sharing these ineffable experiences. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's happening. It's happening through the work that you're doing and through so many people that both of us talk to probably on a daily basis. You know, we're real fortunate to get to be on the leading edge or for some reason. We tend to have really good seats right now.

And I'm super thankful for that. You know, I don't know how I got this seat, but I'm super thankful and I get to be here watching this happen and doing a part, getting a role to walk on part in the war. And it's so amazing to me because I do this. think this next generation, if they're able to harness this power of connectivity, they're able to create communities through the computer with like-minded people across the globe, if we can introduce ceremony into that, if we can introduce real connection, if we can see this and leverage AI and all these things as tools like they are, we can really do a lot of healing throughout the world. and I think a lot of that, unfortunately,

comes through confrontation of, much like some of the stories you were telling earlier, like you have to confront these things. If you continue to take the Western-style diet and the Western medicine, it'll give you enough to cope, but it will never help you confront. It'll give you what you need

in order to make it one more day at a place you hate, being a person you don't want to be. It'll help you do that. But that is dying. That is slowly killing yourself. Why not stop and face that thing that is scaring? That thing that's chasing you, just stop and turn around. How long can you stand before it gets you?

What is it going to get? Is it a mile? Is it 10 feet? Do you let it get right in front of your face? Are you going to talk to it? Are you going to shake its hand? What are you going to do? Like, let's see what you can do.

I think sometimes just being, standing up to the fear scares that fear away or it or it integrates it, right? Like maybe it's integrating the fear. What do you think it is? I think it's all of that. I think we do have to confront. And that's the, that's the only,

like we were talking earlier, of alchemizing. We have to, you know, I've heard this thing of, if you are in a psychedelic journey and something scary comes up to you. And often this is something that is upon your own psyche that you're afraid of.

But if something is coming, you can, you can say like, you know, what do I have to learn from you? Or what is what about you serves my highest good? If you can ask this thing that's really scaring you, usually it'll then transform into something that then makes sense to you.

It then isn't this scary thing anymore. It's, you know, there to, it actually is serving you. And I think that's what we have to do with these painful things in our life and the trauma that we've been through or whatever. it is. We have to like, we have to confront it. We have to like say what, what am I going to create from this that's meaningful going forward and and not just be victim to it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's the change that's happening. And maybe, maybe when you do it and you're like the same way, like when I was, which one do I want to go? When as a young kid,

I was molested. And so like I know the signs of that. So, I can kind of see, or at least I think I can see signs of that when it happens to other people. And that same sort of education that's taught in trauma. It's like a trauma-based education that you learn when you go through an experience. Maybe you just call it lived experience. So if that's true, if people that go through these traumas can recognize those traumas and other people, pretty soon you begin to see that pattern on a bigger level. Oh, it's not that this person was malicious. is they were probably abused.

Oh, they were probably abused. And you see that pattern, but then you go, oh, the world is abusing people. It's not just this person. It's the society that's abusing people. Oh, these are symptoms. This anorexia, this sexual abuse, violence, the use. These are all symptoms of a condition that we're all in the midst of.

And they're just emerging. These are people are symptomatic of a bigger problem. And so when you see it from that angle, it really helps to alleviate the anger, the blaming. It helps to alleviate that at least long enough to realize it's not just you. It's everybody. And that's that space you need to catch a breath. Okay, we're going back under.

You know what I mean? At least you can catch your breath for a minute. Like, oh, it's bigger than me. It's way bigger than me. Okay, well, what can I do that? That's enough to maybe put that fear in perspective. Like you don't have to run from the fear because it's not coming for you. It's showing you it's the world.

And when enough people stand up to that fear, all of a sudden we have a team around us now. And it's not like we're walking alone anymore. Now we're walking hand in hand. And I think that's a big part of what the medicine is doing. That's a big part of what this healing is doing. It's people finding each other who are broken, holding hands. And we're like, get behind us. Let's go.

We're going to walk forward now. You know, it's got a beautiful when you think about it like that. Yeah, yeah. And I'm so grateful for like for the the community that is growing up on this and the support that's there to to face like these huge systemic issues and that sometimes can feel really hopeless. But I have seen like how much it can these altered states of consciousness can provide, you know, a different perspective. a different way of like any and even sometimes answers because we're connecting to a to a part of ourselves we're opening up to maybe our higher intelligence and and getting answers or perspectives that we weren't able to get before doing that. And so I have a lot of hope for some of those, you know, really big issues. I mean, there's a lot of healing that needs to happen in the world to get to start.

making some headway on all these symptoms that are happening out there. But I have hope. Yeah. I often feel like in these heightened states of awareness, like truths are revealed to us. It's not necessarily that you go to school and you learn while you can do that, but it seems like the real lessons in life are revealed to you in certain states or certain events.

like that's when you get to learn. Like it's almost like something has to develop inside of you. And it makes me incredibly hopeful as well to see these things that are developing inside of people. And knowing that the next generation will have even something more significant develop inside them. It's almost like, you know, maybe the first sort of flush of the mushrooms is a certain type of way. But then the next flush is a different type of way, you know. And it's interesting to see. or maybe speculate on what the next fruit may hold,

but I do see it as this process evolving. And I, for a long time, there was this meme going around that winter is here. But I think spring is upon us. You know, I really see so much progress and I see so many people confronting these things that scare them. I see people having and inviting real change

into their life and it's working out for them. The people that are taking chances that, Listen to this voice inside of them. Hey, I'm going to listen to my heart. This is really scary. But I think I'm going to just try to be the most authentic version of myself and see how that works out. Guess what? It pays off.

Who know? It's scary, though. Why is it so scary, do you think, to do that? Well, we're conditioned to protect ourselves. We've spent a lifetime of various years building up. ways to try to not feel pain and taking risks can be painful. And sometimes, like, yeah, depending on your personality, that might be, there might be nothing that feels more painful than being ostracized from, like, from the herd, you know, standing out as different or

being told that you're not acceptable or whatever it is. And I think that then what, what these medicines and entheogens can do is to help you see that you are so much more than than that or that perception. You're so much more than even just this body, this mindset, this brain. Like I hear so many people, you know, when they're in their medicine, they realize they have to go to the bathroom. They're like, oh, time to take care of this body. And they start differentiating this. their consciousness from like, you know, this, the experience of this physical body. And I,

and I love to see that, that start to, you know, like people start to see themselves that way. It's like, I'm so much more than just, you know, this ego identity that has been built up since childhood based on all of my conditioning and experiences and defense mechanisms and everything else. And I think that that gives us the strength to really like step out and be courageous as we realize like I'm so much more than than just that. And I so won't have to rely on like the people, people saying like, oh, you're, you know, you're a great, whatever, you know, you are. Like, because you know now on a more visceral level that you're more than that. I've said, that myself and like in some pretty dark times I've came to that realization and you know be at a heightened state of awareness or a friend or Moby Dick or Carl Young whatever wherever you find that inspiration like I'm so much more than that.

Gosh it's such a beautiful statement to think about and it can provide you with the necessary catalyst to just take that one next step like think about it like is there something in your life where you're like you know what I'm so much better than that. Just saying that puts you in the right frame of mind to understand how much you really are. You really are so much more than that. Like, wherever you're at right now, whatever you're doing, and especially if you find yourself in some dark spots, just use that as a mantra. Like, I'm so much more than this. And when you start asking that question and when you start saying that out loud, you start seeing it. You start seeing it and everything around you and the environment unfolds. And I never thought about it, but you're really. You're really. You're right. I think that that is what's happening. We are understanding collectively on some level,

whether it's springtime or whether it's the something that's happening collectively throughout the world or maybe it's the migration of the Magnet North Pole. I don't know. But it's this awareness about us that we're more than that. We're more than this. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so key. we you know we there's a divine essence in us that you know that we can we can embody more and we don't have to be just identified with this the ego identity that that has formed and and you see you it's hard to put that into words but it's but when you experience it which a lot of people do and with these mind-altering substances. You can feel it.

You see it. And I think that that's transformational. It is transformational. I got a question that kind of burns in me sometimes. And it's that obviously you and I and so many of the people we know were such advocates for this particular heightened states of awareness. But the truth is there's a lot of people that will never, ever, them, they'll never, ever use them. And a lot of the times, like, I could just go down this idea,

like, what if everybody could have this experience? But maybe it's not for everybody. Maybe it's for a handful of people. You know, I don't know what's right or what's wrong, but you have any thoughts on that? It's kind of an interesting concept to think about, right? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I would say it's not for everyone. I wish it was. But it's not the only thing that can provide that altered state of consciousness. There's breath work. There's certain types of meditation. Some things take a little more effort, a little more like practice.

But I actually think that there's a danger of relying too much on the psychedelics. And because they can give you a window of a glimpse of all these things that are possible, but to really go through your daily life embodying those. You know, you can't just be high every minute to really, you know, be experiencing this. I think these are a beautiful medicine, but you don't take medicine all the time. You have to like take, you have to integrate that. And I really believe that that then means like, what do I change about my life? And there's going to be people who, they're not able to take these medicines or they're afraid to take them.

but you can still experience an altered state of consciousness and experience like this, this disidentifying with the ego and finding that divine, you know, spark within you and feeling how connected that is to everything through other practices. And really, that's the goal anyway. It's the goal to really to be more that way. And I think that there's sometimes a danger to over-rely on the psychedelics. Yeah, I've had a profound experience with breathwork. So I know from experience that it's possible.

And it is something I'm trying to cultivate in my own life so that I can access that at any time I want and get a, you know, release of DMT in my, from my pineal gland of on demand. That would be on demand. You know, there's another sort of, like, prickly area that comes about accessibility. And in your private practice, you're looking for ways in which to find people who otherwise can't find treatment. You know, it's interesting that psychedelics are relatively easy to cultivate, but sometimes the process of getting people through treatment is expensive. Like, is there bridges we can find to mitigate that? Yeah. No, that's a huge topic right now and a very relevant one.

there's many people because I've worked in populations that really, you know, can barely afford, you know, like $20 therapy sessions or whatever. And I really care for these people. And I know they wouldn't be able to afford like most of the services that are out there right now of psychedelic therapy because you got to, it's not necessarily the cost of the medicine is the cost of. having, you know, a practitioner or two, ideally sitting with you all day long, you know, there's a lot of time and expertise that you're that you're paying for. So, so yeah, accessibility is a huge issue. And, and of course, like navigating this in the legal framework adds a lot more additional costs. I, the best kind of answer that I'm working with right now is that the people that can really afford it, they pay a lot. And then that subsidizes the people that really

can't afford it and who, you know, and there's like either scholarship options or, or even, you know, volunteer work. And that that is the way that people who need these, need to have this kind of healing, but can't access it financially. at least, you know, like get the, get the opportunity to. Yeah. You know, it's, it's so fascinating in some level to see, you know, when I look at the pharmaceutical model or even like the, the, some of the laws that are put in place, a lot of the times when we think of high-powered attorneys or pharma executives, we think

of people that are really wealthy. And it turns out that their children usually need this therapy more than anything. In some ways, like they're creating this incredibly high-priced model that their kids are going to have to use. You know, and like, maybe we could pan that out a little bit and be like, look, we're kind of creating this model that we all have to use. I haven't thought about it a whole lot, but I might have to rethink that through because I think there's probably some nuggets in there. But yeah, I do think that the accessibility part is, and I think there's avenues for people to explore. You know, there's always, while the underground is definitely has some pitfalls and some holes in it, there's really, really good people that have been underground for a really long time that know what they're doing and make their services accessible to people.

You know, I'm not saying that everybody should go find some underground place, but the people that work in the underground are some of the unsung heroes that have made today possible. And there's true. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And there's, you know, real risk in taking that. they're stepping out in in ways, you know, based on how much they believe in this and how much

they, they know that it can be healing. And, um, and of course, like, yeah, you're right. There, there are some pitfalls of like, just once in a while that, um, you might come across somebody who shouldn't be, you know, operating at all. And there is process and, you know, to really like, um, but I, So I think that the community is trying to really police itself right now to make sure those people aren't out there. So you have to use discretion and be careful. But I'd say the vast majority are people that, you know, they're doing this because they're really called to it and have been. And they're doing it for the right reasons.

And thus they're providing usually like services in a way that is more accessible. you know in some ways i think i was i was thinking about this yesterday in some ways i feel as if this particular wave of in theogens and psychedelics is a lot like the late 50s and there's all this promise and there's all this research going on and like there's so many people that are really excited about it and i'm like wow that's so cool like we're getting to be alive at this point at the time and then i started thinking like oh what comes when the wave breaks you know and then like there's a real possibility. I don't know if Link Letters' daughter jumped out of that window because she was on asset or if there was a lot more going on. I don't know what was behind the Nixon administration

or I don't thoroughly know what the push was to try to put the genie back in the bottle. But if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, then there's a real possibility that we could see the inability to centralize, to wrap laws around and monetize. this could force the powers to be to try to put it back into a bottle. And might that look like a new Manson family? Might that look like a new Jones town? Like there's a real possibility that something like that could happen, right? And that would come from the underground.

And that would be grounds to put this thing back in the bottle. Is that a real possible scenario you think that could happen? Oh, you know, I don't spend a lot of time think about like that first case scenario. but I think it is possible. Sure. And I think that you're right that there's that's worth thinking about because, yeah, we don't want to create the circumstances for, for something like that. So I think it's better that it be in the open. It's better.

Yes. Yes. Yes. So I'm, I'm hopeful that this will become more and more, that we've learned some. some lessons from like from the 60s when right there was you know like a swing the the other way and that that from this where we are being more careful and and and um trying to self-regulate in such a way that like the people who are really afraid of this you know like have their fears assuaged and they're not going to be trying to put anything back in the bottom

but there's a delicate balance there that that I think we do have to be mindful of and it is worth really like taking careful stock of. Yeah, but I, you know, the results of decades now of research and the stories that are out there of just how beneficial these things are, it's too much to, to, you know, not acknowledge. And so thankfully, you know, I think things are shifting in the right direction. Yeah. I bring it up because I fear the idea of, you know, if you don't talk about something,

then it's almost like you're afraid of it. But if you're willing to talk about it, it's like, yeah, this is right here in the open. Of course that could happen. But what if it did? Then these things would happen. Look at all this research we have. Look at all this thing that's happening now. Yeah.

Things do happen. but we can't control that, but to deny the inevitability of a crisis happening. You know, like, you know what the real crisis is, is that we don't have Ibo Gaining, Kentucky, yet. We will. But like the real crisis is that we don't have these medicines and the inner cities and that it's not being subsidized by, you know, what if we measure like, you know, gross, like a, instead of the gross national product, like a gross happiness index, you know,

Like how many people could we go get that are living under bridges right now and treat them and make them productive members of society, however you want to define that word productive. Maybe productive means being a better person. Maybe a productive person is someone who feels like they matter to society. Maybe a productive person is someone who is no longer afraid of being abused. But I think that that is the real crisis and that we're seeing these medicines emerge, not only in psychedelics, but in the pathogens and the things that are happening in Kentucky. I'm really hopeful for the future. I really see this new form of healthcare beginning to emerge. And not only emerge, but just excel on so many levels, right?

Yeah. And then hopefully there will be the monetary incentive there too for health care organizations and insurance to see that like it's actually cheaper probably. It's in the long run to pay for something like this. and you know instead of having to pay for someone to be on like all the medications that I was on for years you know I have a few sessions and and your and the success rate is so much more in treating you know treatment resistant depression PTSD like all these things I so I'm also I'm hopeful that that that there's that there's going to be a shift in our our health care and in, yeah, and all of this.

So there's, I think there's just reason to be excited with everything that's coming, that's emerging from, from this movement. Yeah. I think that there's a shift happening right now, Drew. And I think that so many people in this community, some of people in this LinkedIn community, so many people in Oregon and Denver and Kentucky and so many people out there have, have had the experience they have had so that they can be on the front lines helping people right now. And I think you're one of those people.

I'm super stoked to get to know you in a way that I didn't know a couple hours ago. You're an awesome person, man. And while I'm disheartened that all the tragedies that you went through were painful, on some level, I'm happy they happened to you because I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. And you wouldn't be helping so many people, man. And I love you, man. I'm super stoked that that happened to you. And then maybe a weird thing to say.

but I'm sorry, but I'm also grateful. Yeah, I hear you. And I, and I, yeah, I'm glad to have had the tools to like work, work through it, to alchemize it, to, to, to be able to heal those existential wounds, the, the moral injury, the existential crisis. and in many, many ways I credit, you know, a divine presence that I'm aware of, you know, that has helped to guide much of that. And so I'm grateful to be a part of it. I'm grateful that I can help share that. And hopefully there's people that, that, you know,

that will benefit from that. From my experiences, my pain that are going to also get healing, that are going to, you know, people, that there'll be a ripple effect, that the world will experience just being just that much better, hopefully, by, you know, our efforts to, to bring this to more people in a, in a ethical way. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys are setting. Yeah, man. Like I said, I'm stoked to be here and see it. And I'm an advocate for myself. I have been healed by psychedelics in so many ways and still am today. And it helps me thoroughly understand when I can't make sense of the world.

You know, and it gives me the, it gives me the ability to see myself and my situation in a way I never have before. And it's really hard sometimes to see it that way. It's painful, but it's helpful. And it's, I think it makes me a better person to understand and it provides empathy. And I hope that other people can get the healing they need and turn their traumas into a tool to help other people. Because I think that that's the message of trauma. But man, you guys are on the leading edge. You guys are setting a really high bar.

And I'm so excited to see what's happening in Oregon. So excited to see cool people out there making changes in the world, changing, their life and changing other people while they're doing it. And I'm excited for the future. Before I let you go, my friend, where can people find you? What do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Oh, man. Well, there's Moksha Journey's website.

And I'm helping with what they're doing in the recovery programs that are starting into taking, take off, which I'm really excited about. I do have a LinkedIn page and, you know, and I'm also working with the Integrative Psychiatry Institute. Right. And becoming psychedelic assistant therapist. That's a really great option of phenomenal training with some of the best speakers. And if in the practicum experience, you'll probably see me in there if you wanted to do that. And as far as like, you know, my own work that I'm doing.

doing. I'm I'm pairing down my private practice. So I'm not, I still am maintaining one, but it's not like very open at the moment as much as I'd like to take on everyone and help everyone. That's something I wrestle with, always a little overburdened. But at the moment, I'm trying to like limit myself because there's so much happening with the psychedelic therapy space that I'm, that I'm involved with. So, But I am, I'm incredibly excited to finally have these things, you know, taking off in the, in the above ground legal space and to, to be a part of the leading edge of that. And I'm seeing some phenomenal things with it. And so it's just, it's like just, just emerging.

So it's wonderful to be a part of it. Fantastic. Well, I'm super thankful for your time today. and I'm super thankful for everything. Ladies and gentlemen, go down to the show notes. Check out, Drew. Let's see where the links will take you. You will be excited about it.

Thank you for joining us. That's all we got for today. Drew, hang on real briefly. I'll talk to you afterwards, but I'm going to end it with our friends here. Ladies and gentlemen, Aloha.