TrueLife - Sabba Nazhand - Bruce Lee, Blood Transfusions, & Burning Man

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/🎙️🎙️🎙️Ladies & Gentleman Today, we are blessed with a distinguished guest whose journey spans continents and industries, bridging the gap between innovation and human connection. Sabba Nahand’s career, marked by roles at giants like Dell in the U.S. and 2U in Hong Kong, reflects a profound adaptability and commitment to growth. His extensive experience mentoring startups at 1776dc and advising early-stage ventures at The TechTavern reveals a deep-seated passion for fostering new ideas and nurturing emerging talents.For over 20 years, Sabba has mastered the art of building intentional teams and driving them toward success. His approach goes beyond traditional leadership; it’s rooted in understanding the unique motivations of each team member and providing the resources and support necessary for their development. As a former guest lecturer at George Washington University’s School of Business, Sabba has shared his insights and expertise, influencing future leaders and innovators.Sabba’s philosophy of leading from the front, exemplified by his prowess in closing deals and guiding others to do the same, highlights a blend of practical wisdom and visionary thinking. He meticulously measures financial impacts, ensuring profitability even amidst rapid scaling. His narrative is not just about success in sales; it’s about the profound human elements that drive high-performing teams.Join us as we explore Sabba Nahand’s fascinating journey, his insights on team dynamics, and his philosophical approach to leadership and growth in the ever-evolving tech landscape. This conversation promises to be a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone aspiring to navigate the complexities of modern business with intention and authenticity.https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabbanazhand One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody is having an incredible day. I hope everybody is becoming the very best versions of themselves. and finding a way to seek the beauty in life. I have for you today, ladies and gentlemen,

an incredible show. And I want to welcome everybody to a conversation that dives deep into the uncharted territories where technology, human potential, and the psychedelic frontier collide. Today we are joined by a true maverick, a mind that defies convention and embodies the spirit of revolution

in both thought and action. Sabat Najan isn't your average startup visionary. He's a bridge between worlds From his early days, overcoming the odds with a life-saving blood transfusion to leading high-impact ventures across continents. Saba's journey is a fusion of the personal, the global, and the deeply transformative. His 20-plus years in the tech arena, guiding teams at Dell and 2U mentoring at 1776 DC and advising groundbreaking startups at the Tech Tavern are just the foundation of his radically human-centered approach to leadership, but what sets Saba apart is his fearless pursuit of what can be.

a believer in the power of psychedelics to unlock untapped human potential and disrupt the very fabric of our understanding. Saba has one foot planted firmly in the world of cutting edge technology and the other in the realms of altered consciousness. Fresh off and immersive experience at Burning Man, Saba is here to explore ideas that challenge the boundaries of our reality where AI psychedelics and human relationships intersect to create entirely new dimensions of existence. Saba, thank you so much for being here today. How are you? I'm great, George. Thank you. What an amazing intro.

I'm going to have to copy that and keep it somewhere. Maybe frame it on my wall. Thank you. Yeah, man. Well, I want to set the stage. You know, before we got started, you and I were talking about the times we live in and they're truly transformative to for those who are, you know, getting to see it on the first hand.

But, you know, maybe we could just kind of jump right into this. You know, I labeled this particular talk of Bruce Lee, blood transfusions and Burning Man. And so, that's amazing. I mean, amazing. Let's do it. Okay. Okay. So, you know, a lot of people who grew up in my generation or maybe your generation or

our generation, they grew up on the Bruce Lee films. But he has this famous quote that says, be like water. Oh, yeah. And, you know, be water, my friend. How is this particular philosophy shaped your approach to business and life, particularly in the ever-fluid world of startups? Yes. Great question to kick it off.

Water is fluid. It flows. It shapes and mimics whatever you put it in. You put it in a teacup, it's a teacup. You put it in a bowl, it's a bowl. And I think that, you know, Bruce Lee, I cannot say it as great and amazing as Bruce Lee did. But it's all about being in flow state. It's about going with the flow.

It's about understanding that like we don't have any control. When we think we do, we don't have any control in life and business. And most importantly, we cannot control our outcomes. We just have to be in flow state. We have to surrender. And once we do that, I truly believe. And it's been very helpful for me. And there's times where I have to remind myself that when we do, when we stop focusing on outcomes and we focus on the journey in a state of flow is when everything comes together.

Yeah, it's well said. Yeah. Yeah. It brings up the idea of awareness. Like you can't. If you're focused on the past or the future, like you're not really paying attention to the now. Like that's a whole other state of awareness, right? Totally.

Totally. It's, you know, I get stuck on this all the time. You focus on the past. It creates anxiety. It creates frustration. It creates this, again, things that you can't control. Like, I can't change the past. I have, you know, my 42 years in life, I've made many mistakes.

I've heard many people and I've done some dumb shit. But I've learned from those and I've grown from them. And there are moments where I'm like, oh, you know, I could have done that differently, but why? Like that doesn't do anything for me. Maybe like moving forward if I'm in a situation that it puts me in the same spot as I was in the past. I was like, oh, you know what?

I've been here before. And why Saba and present Saba knows that, you know, this is how you would manage it. So, yeah. This brings up like a profound idea of time. It sounds like in some ways you're time traveling. And maybe that's how we should begin to look at ourselves and our experiences. It's like you couldn't have changed what happened in the past. No matter what you've done, you couldn't change that.

But maybe that happens so that you can change it in the future. It kind of alters our perception of time. What's your thoughts on that? It really does. You know, this, I wouldn't call it a motto, but in many settings in my life, work, personal, sitting with plant medicine, doing deep work, inner work. I have this motto that comes up and it's, I've been here before. And, you know, I'm getting even goosebumps saying that because it's a beautiful thing.

And that just reminds me of like, yeah, yeah, I've been here. You know, whatever, you can go whatever philosophy, you can go philosophy of reincarnation, you can go a philosophy of old experiences, but it's like, I've been here before. And it just calms you, it puts you present. It grounds you into the space of like whatever that is about to come to me, whether it's a lesson, outcome, etc. I'm here, and I've been here before. And it just calms you down.

And even before like a sales meeting or an investor pitch, I'll write before I close my eyes, as I did before I light up my Palo santo, grounded, and then I say, I've been here before. Man, that is such a good thing. It's such a powerful thing to say because it just puts you in a really comfortable state of mind. Yeah.

And that's time travel. like, hey, I've been here before, right? So. Yeah. It blows my mind to think about it from that aspect. And I hope more people begin to sort of adopt that philosophy and just having those mantras around to ground yourself and put you in the right state of mind. And it does bring up the thought of identity to me, which leads me to the second part of this

question here, which is, you know, in a recent interview, you know, I've heard you tell a story about a blood transfusion when you were a baby. And in some ways, that feels symbiotic of transformation and renewal. How has this experience shaped your perspective on life identity and what it means to be truly alive in both a biological and spiritual sense? Man, that is, oh, we're going to start crying in the first five minutes. Cool. Okay. It's okay.

It's okay. It's good. So I was born, I'm Iranian. I was born in Iran. and I was born for some of, I'll do a quick history lesson. I was born in the early 80s and in Iran. And that was during the war. It was during the Iran-Iraq War.

It was right after the revolution. So government takeovers. There was a lot of massive changes in that country that led to distress and chaos and death and all of that. And my mother, who was obviously pregnant with me, could not, could no longer hold me, hold me in. I was born two months early. I was a premature baby because of the war, the chaos. We were literally in, I wouldn't say we were in the war front, but we were in the capital of Iran, which was obviously a lot of things was happening. You can see gunfire and bombs from afar,

and that was just a stressful time for my family, and my mother couldn't hold me in. So I was born a premature baby. And when I was born, our family doctor told my father, told my parents that I needed a blood transfusion to stay alive. And the only place I can go was a hospital across town. So for all intents of purposes, at that moment, my father said goodbye to my mother and sister because we didn't know. He didn't know that like what we were going to get ourselves into, how far we had to drive. And at that moment, he thought that this was the final goodbye.

And he said goodbye. And we went to this hospital. He saved my literally my parents, my father saved my life with this blood transfusion. And, you know, it took many years to recognize the impact of that, how coming into this world in a state of chaos and near death really, for better or worse, framed how it builds a foundation of my life and growing up as a child and an adult, which I'll touch on in the moment. And that was just powerful. And for the longest time, we would joke around like, oh, you were a war baby. Ha, ha, that's so funny. Like, you know, and then you start doing inner work.

And then you start, like, confronting or even embracing all the different parts of yourself. And you're like, oh, shit. Of course. Of course I was this timid, scared, angry kid growing up. Of course I was, you know, fighting these weird demons. And of course, I was always angry at the world. Like, why wouldn't I be? Like, I was born.

in the middle of war and I almost died, you know? And starting to connect those dots, really it was almost like a healing moment. It was like understanding of like, of course, little Saba, like, of course you had this. Like, it's okay. You're safe now. And yeah, I mean, I'll stop there. Like, you know, this kind of, it was just this moment of like, whoa, like I grew up as a kid who we were immigrants into this country into the U.S. we lived in a really rough neighborhood, you know, predominantly like black and Hispanic.

And I didn't fit in. I got bullied. And I started getting angry. And then I started playing playing sports. And I started channeling my anger in different ways. But then I was also timid and scared. And that transitioned into like my teenage years. And I didn't understand how to navigate the world because of that, right?

Because I didn't know who to be. I always wanted to be nice. I pretended everyone was my friend and everybody liked the nice Saba, but I was mad. I was angry behind closed doors because I didn't know who I was. And I didn't know, I knew that there was something deeper and heavier out there. I'll stop there because like there's so many connections in life. But yeah, that's that's the blood transfusion story. Man, it's so interesting that you bring up the way in which you were brought into chaos.

And then you find yourself later in live able to thrive in this world of chaos or especially start up or uncertainty, I can call it. Like, that's a whole, that's a whole incredible realm to be familiar. And maybe you could talk about that relationship with uncertainty. Absolutely. Look, you know, I have this, and this is, I didn't make this concept up or the saying is like, immigrants have a chip on their shoulder because they come to this country and they have something to prove for themselves, for the people who have doubted them, for the people

that betrayed them or, you know, or left their country. they have something to prove. So they have this chip on the shoulder. That's why you see so many immigrants and as small business owners, big tech founders, like what, the top 15 tech companies on the planet are from immigrants, you know, are the founders are immigrants. So it's this chip on your shoulder, right? So you have that.

So growing up, I always had a chip on my shoulder and I still do. And that translates so well into startups and tech ecosystem and high pressure, high impact environments. And then the uncertainty, to your point, like, we came here with nothing. My father worked two jobs. My mother worked two jobs. My sister and I basically raised each other because my parents worked 15 hours a day. And we didn't know when the next meal was going to come.

We didn't know what was going to happen. There was like gang violence and gunshots outside of our home. So that uncertainty turned into fear, strength, trauma, and put that all together. and I hate to say this, but if you translate that into running a startup or building a fast-paced company, it's all of that. It's uncertainty. There's trauma. You're scared.

You have people's livelihood are depending on this business because you're paying, you know, there's payroll. And that to me was like, man, if I can go through that in my life, one missing one quarter of revenue is not the end of the world, right? A board member yelling down my throat, though I don't like it, is not going to kill me. like bring it on right and that helped create this shield this like tough skin especially that you need in sales and tech and and then startups and yeah for better or worse man that that helped me become who I am today and in the professional career world yeah it sounds like in the ultimate

training ground for adversity you know what where does the spiritual component come in like when you're little like was there uh were you raising a certain faith or Or was there just this overwhelming sense of your dad? Like, look, we're going to make it. Or look, we always get through it. What was the spiritual component there? No. There was really no spiritual component at home.

My parents, you know, by culture or upbringing, we were Muslims. Right. But we didn't practice Islam. My parents were actually anti, right? Because we tied all of the distress and pain in our country. to Islam because of the government take over from the Islamic, from from a monarchy to or from a democracy to a monarchy to an Islamic republic. We tied all of that back to.

So there was always a disdain for religion, all religions, because that's how my parents felt. Though they believed in God and you would hear, you know, like, you know, may God help us and those kind of sayings. Yeah, even now, like you bring up religion around my house. my parents are like, no, don't even talk about it. So I grew up with this disdain for religion. And I studied a little bit of the Bible, the Quran, and other scriptures. But in the back of my mind, I was like, no, no, no, no, this isn't right. This isn't feel right. This isn't, you know, this is a manmade thing. You know, you're forcing and you're molding your, you're molding what you want this to look like within,

religious text, aka the Islamic Republic, like, oh, you have to do it this way because the book says so. So all of these things were like, yeah, this doesn't work for me. So I grew up with that disdain. However, there was this moment in my life, I call it probably like my teenage years, 16, 17 years old. Behind closed doors at home, I found myself attracted to like meditation music, I was reading, like watching YouTube videos on like metaphysics. I was listening to like Native American tribal music, chants. And I always had this deep connection to it. And then that turned into like reading ancient Persian poetry like Hafez and Rumi.

These like metaphysical beautiful beings that like that had this connection with God and universe. And I was like, whoa, shit, there's something here. I don't know what it is, but there's beauty and depth behind. it. So I was really attracted to it without understanding what it was. And later on in life, like understanding that that spirituality, the connection to God and universe has nothing to do with religion and text and script. It's the onness. It's the wholeness of the universe. And that kind of translated later on in life of like, ah, I see. You know, one of my, one of my first experiences with psychedelics, I had this immense, immense,

moment where I was like, oh shit, God is real. And that moment like blew my fucking head off because it was like, wait a second. All this things that you hated and disdained and believed to be fake is like, wait a second.

What's going? This feeling, this connectionness, this connectedness to universe and God, it's like, ah, interesting. There is a God. And then I was like, oh wait, I am God. We're all God. Like, there's a God within us. And that was like, okay, I take, to get these drugs out of my head.

I can't take it anymore. I was like, get it out. But then I started really like sitting with that and, and understanding the depth. And I was like, ah, I see. There's there you can, there is a distinction between religion and spirituality. And there's also a correlation with that as well. And I was like, I see. I see the beauty in religion.

I see the beauty and faith and spirituality. I'm still not a religious person, but I do believe in a higher being, and I do believe in the universe being the guiding source of everything in this planet and consciousness is just that. So we can go down that rabbit hole, but I think that answers your question. It totally does.

I'm very fortunate. I get to talk to so many cool people, and there's always, on some level, I always go back to this idea of, you know, in the gospel of John and the gospel of Thomas. They call him doubting Thomas because he never believed in Jesus. He's like, man, you didn't die. I don't believe anything you said.

Like, he never believed anything. But he was the only one that Jesus showed up. It was like, here, come touch it then. Yeah. Put your hand in my wound, son, you know? Yeah. And I think so many people in the startup or so many people that are, that are, that find themselves like, I don't believe it.

That's bullshit. I don't believe it. Like, fuck, I don't believe it. Like, that's the test. That's the test to see the, oneness is like, oh, you don't believe it, then the universe just comes to you and is like, let me show you. Oh, Mr.

I don't believe anything, you know, and you get tested. And like, all of a sudden, right? It's so crazy. Like that particular story always resonates with people, man. Yeah, you know what it is? It's what? And I think psychedelics are a catalyst here. But I think there's obviously other modalities that gets you to this point of like awareness,

if you will. It's as as humans in this waking life, we are so. we are led by our ego. We are led by our prefrontal cortex. I understand why. It's to save our life. It's to not get eaten by, you know,

wolves. And it's also like we have bills, we have family, we have responsibilities. So this like, call it the matrix mindset that we're in. Deep down inside, I believe every human knows that there's a God.

There's a universe and there's this massive oneness. But we are so scared of that. We are so scared. of like that realization because it changes everything. It changes everything. It flips everything on its on its back. And you're like and people just, it's almost like I believe, I think, I shouldn't say I believe, but I think that one reason why people can't grasp the fact that there's

other intelligent life is because our brains cannot process that. Because once that happens, it's like, it's going to be like malfunctioning like, wait, wait, we're not the only, you know, humans on this like massive, massive universe of universe. is times a million. So I just think we're just deep down inside we know, but we are just scared because it's going to buck up our everyday life because it changes everything. Things just don't matter as much as they used to and that's scary. Yeah, well, it's called the default mode network for a reason. You know what I mean? Like it messes up society. Like if you could you can make the argument that that's why it got shut down in the last wave that happened.

is like, look at these crazy fuckers, dude. What about all the people that need to work here? What about society? What about rules? We can't have this. Like, it's mind-blowing to think about it. That's the biggest reason, aside from an overwhelming ideology of racism, that's the reason why the war on drugs happened is because they knew, like, they knew,

again, the racism was probably the main reason, but they knew that people would shut off their default mode networks. And they're like, wait, I'm not going to war. I'm not going to the assembly line. I'm not going to go to this like indoctrinated school the way that you want me to do it. So there's like all this like pushback against societal norms. And that's a big reason why, of course. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it speaks. It harkens back to the beginning of the conversation. Like when you're, if you're born into a comfortable family, you know, everybody has problem. But if you're born into something that is comfortable, you're born with the default mode network and blinders on. Like, but if you're built into chaos, like, hey, wait a minute, that's fucking dumb.

That's, that's bullshit. Why am I, I'm not going to do that. Like you're, you're born. It's almost like a feral child in some ways, you know? Yeah. It's crazy to think about it. It's, it's wild. I mean, oh, man, we could talk about this for hours.

But just, just, yeah, I mean, yeah, we talk like for hours. Okay. Let me, let me shift gears here and get to the third part of my title before we start digging into some super deep stuff. But, amazing. You know, yeah, after your recent experience of Burning Man, we're self-expression and, radical thinking thrive. What lessons do you take back into your professional and personal life? From Burning Man. Who, yeah. Um, yeah. So this was my first time, um, going to Burning Man. Um, it was three

weeks before Burning Man, I made the decision. Um, you know, my partner was like, yeah, just screw it, go. And I was like, wait, what? Oh, okay. Two kids at home. And I mean, she's just, she puts up with my shit all the time. So I, you know, big shout out to my partner. But, but. But three weeks before, I was like, okay, let's go. So all of a sudden I'm like, like enthralled in what's all of the planning and packing lists. And, you know, everybody has these like, don't do this, don't do that. And I was like, and I have had many friends that have gone. So there was always this allure of wanting to go.

So I was like, you know what, school it. About a week before, it very much felt like when you're preparing for a ceremony or you're sitting with medicine, And it was like all this anxiety is coming up and like what happens if I don't do this? My thoughts. Am I going to die in the desert? Am I going to like dehydration? And like all this like spirit like your brain is literally like, oh boy, you're about to go into something, you know, an uncharted territories. I was like, oh, again, I've been here before.

And it was like, okay, so start preparing intention setting. And then the default guy comes in. It's like you've got to make plans. Put your printout because you won't have Wi-Fi. out all the camps you want to see, all the DJs you want to see, you have 100 friends that are going to be there. So you got to make sure you find all of them, all these big fucking lists. Well, let me tell you, Bernie Man, the Playa decides what, how you experience, how your time is experienced there, right? Simply put, the biggest learning for me was what we talked about a little

bit earlier. I have crippling anxiety and I have the need to control outcomes. And perfect spot for you then. Perfect spot. So 14, 12 hours into the play out, I'm getting leg cramps from dehydration. There's dust everywhere. I've gotten lost 20 times in my first 12 hours. And that just became this theme of like, I just need to surrender and really understand that like you can't control the outcomes, man. You just got to surrender to the experiences. And there's these serendipitous moments that started happening at Burning Man. Like the moment I recognize, and this just, this translates so well into the default world is like the moment I, you start surrendering and just going with the flow, these serendipitous moments happen.

I started bumping into my friends that I was trying to look for the day before and I didn't. I started bumping into these moments of like, I haven't eaten 10 hours. I should probably eat something. And I was, you know what? I'm not going to die. I have protein bars in my bag. I'll eventually eat something. I bump into a camp that's making this amazing soup.

And then all of a sudden I meet new friends. It's like, ah, I see. There it is. Like, just go with the flow, surrender, man. And that crippling anxiety of wanting to make sure everything goes well. and it's by the book or like this process, right? I'm a tech guy. I'm an entrepreneur.

So it's like process orientation, like project management my way through fucking Bernie, man. I was like, you can't do that. Right. And that's the biggest learning for me coming back is like, man,

I'm excited to go back next year because I'll do so many things differently. But the most important is like, I'm just going to surrender. And I had three big initiatives, big deadlines the first week back from Bernie man. And that is exactly what I did. I was like, deep breaths. I've been here before and I surrender. And at that moment, this is going to sound so

dramatic, but the moment that that I said those two words or those two mantras, things just started coming to me through meditation, through downloads, through my inbox popping up of like, I've been waiting for this email for six weeks. And I've been stressing about it and there it is. And I was like, this is insanity that this is happening at this moment. Like, what the hell is going on? And just this reminder again. I went on a little rant there, but there's so much deeper with like, with Bernie Man, like zero expectations of I had an idea. But until you go, you don't really understand the power of the desert, the playa and the serendipitous moments with yourself and the universe.

It's a truly magical ancient place and you can party your ass off. Like, you know, it's just totally. It's really hard to comprehend. And I have a little bit of a little bit of better idea what Burning Man is. Yeah, it's amazing. And thanks for sharing it. I see this trend. And I know that I've gotten to see you on the backside of some accelerators and Carly's stuff.

And I know Dennis has some stuff going out there. But I'm curious to get your thoughts on this because you've almost explain this idea perfectly, and it's this idea of experience over data. For so long, Big Tech has been data, data, data, but it seems to me that we're moving into experience, experience, experience. And I know you're building things too. Do you see this bridge, this sort of journey from data to experience? And how does that parlay into what's coming? Man, this is so hard. I know. Because I just want to be like, no, I need to see the data. like show me the trends.

Damn it. I need to see the trends because I cannot, I cannot, I cannot show success without a data point. And that is true to some extent. Like, you know, I don't care how spiritual you are. I don't care how openness you are. There's something there with data points, especially when you're building a business that I believe is important. However, the experience of it, the experience of just being. part of whatever it is you're working on.

Like as an example, what I'm building now, an advisor of mine who I credit all of this to, an incredible human, this woman is, said if you want to build, I'm building an integration platform. If you want to build an integration platform, then you have to live in integration. So your days should, your business meetings should be around pre-ceremony, ceremony integration. That's how you structure. And I was like, huh, but how do I capture this?

How do I capture that? And then I just recognized, take a deep breath. And this moment of like living in that experience, living in integration and just going with that flow, the downloads come. Your gut is probably the best indicator of a data point because it never lies to you. And when you start trusting your gut, wholeheartedly, like unconditionally trusting your gut, I believe, because it's never, it has never swayed me wrong.

When you, when you surrender and you unconditionally believe in your gut, then you don't need data points to some extent, right? So that's where you see, it's even hard for me to say that because I want to say, no, there's still data. But trusting your gut and going with that experience is so important. And it, serendipitous moments happen. They do. And I can go on this rant forever.

The way I'm trying to build my business is not how I ran my business is always part of organizations the last 20 years. The grit's important. The chip on your shoulders are important. Success by any means necessary. There's some there. But there's this shift happening into an empathetic approach around oneness, wholeness, trusting your gut and really, really surrounding yourself with kind people, not nice people.

Nice people, I'm not a big fan of, kind people. I hope it didn't offend any nice people, but kind people. And that is how you can run a successful business. So I'm experimenting with completely shifting how I have thought about and known how to run a business. How do you define integration? What's your definition of integration? That's such a good question. My personal definition is taking an experience and embracing it into your everyday life.

We come out of these, who says this? Duncan Trussell, who's an incredible comedian and philosopher of sorts and just such a great mind. he always says that these psychedelic experiences or these big experiences are like fireworks. They're like fireworks shows and they're great and they're grand and they're amazing, but at some point they fizzle away. So how do you take that grand experience into everyday life? And it's about oneness, being present and being self-aware of your surroundings at any given moment. And this perfect example of, yeah, I just sat with ayahuasca, I saw God, I know everything now,

and I feel great. And this and does not translate to, you know, being back in the D.C. area or back in New York and going back to your norm. But sitting down with your kids, for example, going to the park and sitting in nature and being like, ah, this is it. This is the integration. This is how I need to take those profound experiences integrated in my life on a daily basis. The last thing I'll say is integration is such a Western concept.

And I'm not saying it's wrong. Obviously, I'm building a business and betting my livelihood on it. So integration is important, but it's a Western concept. In indigenous areas, tribes, countries who have been sitting with medicines, plant medicines for millennia, they don't have integration. Life is their integration. Plant medicine is part of their life. So they don't go and, you know, take this plant medicine or sit with ayahuasca and then their shaman or, you know, their relative is like,

okay, in the next 12 weeks, you have to follow this protocol and check these boxes. No, it's like, great. You just sat with ancestral medicine. Go sit under this tree for the next couple hours. Go help your mom with making food or go spend time. That's integration. It's just being a part of life. So I went on a rant per usual, but I hope that answers like your question of what my definition of integration is and how I see it.

Yeah, totally does it. You know, I'm often, my mind is. blown quite a bit. I get to talk to some really cool people. And a lot of the people who speak multiple languages have a lot of different perspectives on the way they see the world and they interact in it. And it seems to me, not only are you on that cat, on that, in that particular arena, but you've also built companies in different countries. What kind of, maybe you could speak about the different lenses through which you use to build things. Like, I think that's pretty unique. Yeah. You know, I spent, I spent a handful of years in Hong Kong.

I spent a handful of years doing, you know, working in international commerce, spent international business from sales and business development, spent some time in London. I grew up in, I didn't grow up. I was born in Iran and I have deep connections in the Middle East. What I have found that has been the catalyst for working in different environments in different countries is respect and hospitality. I just had an aha moment. Respect and hospitality is the way you embark in international relationships,

really in any relationships, but international relationships, because you respect the culture, the language, and who you're speaking with or working with at a different country. That's number one. And two, you're hospitable because you want to show that, like, you're here as a visitor, as a guest. And when you approach life and business that way, in an international setting is that's how you build a relationship,

especially in Asian countries. It's all about like, you know, for example, in China, in order for you to win the business with an organization there, you're not going to do what you do here in the U.S., which is like pounce on them, tell them you have to get this because you're going to lose all the money. No, no, no. You spend weeks and months learning about them.

They take you out for drinks. And you're not even talking business for like 75% of the sales process. And then the last 25% is like, okay, we like you. We trust you. You're a human being. You're hospitable. You're respectful. Now let's talk business.

And we don't do that enough here in the U.S. Because, again, data, pressure, fast-paced returns on investment, blah, blah, blah. So in that international environment, those are the ways that I found so much success is respect. and hospitality by embracing those cultures, by embracing their food and their music and just understanding. And you know what? On the continued rant here, like, it goes a long way to learn a few words in that language.

I don't care if it's Mexico or Thailand. Like learn two or three words. You're not supposed to be an expert. You're not going to hold a conversation, but the fact that you went out of your way to do that, it goes a long way as a guest, as a visitor, as a tourist, or as a business associate. Again, this could be,

These are all trivial to some, but it's such an important aspect of life that can translate really well. And here in the Western world or in the U.S. I see a common denominator in the ways in which you have found success and experience in other countries in doing well out there versus science and spirituality. And what I mean is if we look today at like Lycos or some of these trials that are happening, you know, in the. the West were really good at, you know, trying to measure what we can manage. We throw out anything else. Like there's no sort of, you know, we only want the hard facts in science. I don't want anything that's unmeasurable.

But you're kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I was talking to Erica Dick, Dick a while back and she was saying things like, you know, in the 60s or in the late 50s, they had these incredible questionnaires that were like, okay, your husband was an alcoholic. We have used psychedelics to help him. Here's a question over the family. Is your husband less of an asshole now? But all of these other metrics that may not be hard evidence, we don't really use those anymore.

But it seems similar. Like when you go to another country, here, we're going to have drinks. Let's talk about your family. Let's talk about your philosophy a little bit. Do you see, is that, and it seems like that's kind of what you're incorporating into your integration businesses, is managing these transcendent events or managing these events that might not have hard data. But maybe you could talk about integrating these things you've learned into what you're doing now. Yeah, I mean, I think you just hit spot on. I couldn't have said it better than how you just explained it.

So thank you. So yeah, you answered your own question. Next question. No, that's awesome. I mean, look, I think I have a lot of comments around Lycos and all of the things that's happened with the FDA. But it's not my place to interject here because I'm not an expert in that world. But I will say that in order to bring stuff to the mass. to the market you need to look and feel like a pharmaceutical company.

There's no, unfortunately, there's no other way around it. And I don't care who you are, what you believe in, what indigenous background you have or what Western background you have. If you want to bring something into this capitalist environment, society,

you have to look and feel like one. Hard stop. And I will say, and so I have a lot of like respect for MAPS and Rick Doblin and Likos and what they've done and what they're trying to accomplish. but at the same time, like, yeah, you may have to sit next to the devil. Like, it is what it is. Like, there's no other way, right?

Totally. There's no other way. Yeah. And, you know, again, I'm not an expert, but I do believe that that's the only way or the best way to get into the market. And I will say this, like, this is my last rant about, I know this wasn't the question, but after, you know, I, with MDMA, which I respect that drug, that medicine, so much. For me personally, it's always been a social medicine, social drug, like events or get together. It's just like being around awesome people and having deep, amazing conversations or listening

to music. And for the first time, actually, at Burning Man, I had a therapeutic healing experience with MDMA by myself. It was like sitting there with so much love and compassion and empathy for me and all the different parts of me. And there was this moment of like, oh shit, I get it. I understand the power of MDMA for healing and helping people in this world. At that moment, because I never experienced it in that way. And I was like, oh, my God, this is a beautiful, beautiful medicine. This is a beautiful drug that can truly help people. And I started thinking about like going through a mental

rolodex of all the people in my life that this would help. And that gave you. And that gave me another level of respect of like what these organizations are trying to accomplish with you know legalizing mdMA therapy so sorry that it's been such top of mind um so your question around like what we could what how i try to envision my business is I'm pausing because this work is the most important work I've ever done in my take a time man this is the most important work I've ever done in my life And I don't want to fuck it up because it's bigger than me. I'm just the vessel, the channel.

I'm building something that is going to give practitioners tools to be better at their jobs, which in turn is going to heal and help people become better versions of themselves and hopefully pass that down to their friends and family and so forth. So there's a lot of pressure that I'm putting on myself because I'm not on, tech, I'm not just another tech role building some fucking app. I'm building something that is going to help people. And that's all I care about. And that is, that is the premise and the people that will work with me that are working with me, understand this, know this, live this, breathe this as well. And they know the depth of how important this is to not just me, but to the world.

So incorporating a mindset around it's bigger than us. We're impacting people's lives and it's going to be hard is so important. And that's what we're trying to do. That's what I'm trying to do. And we're still leading with empathy and vulnerability. I'm a first time founder and CEO of a tech company. I've advised founders. I've been in startups my whole life.

I've built businesses for other companies. And being vulnerable, sitting in a room with my advisors or people in saying, guys, I'm scared and I don't know what I'm doing in this regard. In this regard, I need your help is the most freeing and liberating thing I can do and you can do as a founder and CEO because I don't have all the answers and I don't know a lot of things. But that gives the agency, that gives me the agency to be my full authentic self. and that gives my team and the people that I'm working closely with the agency and for them to be their full authentic selves.

And that is, I believe, the formula to running a great business, whether it's in psychedelics or marketing or whatever, right? So thank you for giving me that space to talk about that. Yeah, man. Thanks for sharing it. I think it speaks to the idea of one issue we're talking about, like being part of something bigger than yourself, allowing people to participate. in something bigger than them.

Like that's, that is the foundation of an idea that can change the world. It's when you're not excluding everyone, but you're inviting everyone in. Like, hey, I'm fucking out of my mind right now. Here's what I got. What do you guys think? How do we make this thing better?

Then everyone gets a role in the leadership position on some level. I think it, I think it, I think on some level, let me phrase the question this way. As someone, and you may have answered this a little bit, but what you're building and, you know, your thoughts on psychedelics could play a role in healing or enhancing connection in both personal and corporate environments. I think that that's what we're seeing on the whole right now.

Like, what's the first time, right? These big things that are happening with Lycos or maps, what it's exposing is not just a problem with MDMA or psychedelics. It's exposing a problem we have on the planet. Like, look at these two things together, right? Absolutely. Look, I mean, it's happening now. You're right. There are retreats that are centered around CEOs and founders of tech companies.

Ketamine therapy is obviously legal, and there are organizations that are providing services for companies to give their employees access to that. These are these are massive, massive things that are happening in the environment. But what is also happening is it's 20 years of toxic environments for the most part that I worked in that I thought was the right way to. approach life, to approach business, to approach the people you manage and lead. I was like, yeah, when you realize that that's not the way, it changes everything. It's just what I just talked about now, it changes everything. And the more like, in the future, I have plans of like, we're going to do off-sites with my team and we're going to sit, we're going to probably go somewhere where it's legal,

like in Portugal or Mexico, and we're going to sit with medicine together as a leadership team and we are going to be we're going to surrender to the medicine we're going to be vulnerable and we're going to learn and grow from that and then we might not even talk business at all but that's going to help us become better people better leaders and i believe that that is can be the formula for the greater masses of organizations there's you know there's you know silicon valley there's organizations that do that all the time now but we're talking a small percentage compared to the globe or to the rest of the u.s. I think you're touching upon something that is, is new to me.

And I think it's sort of emerging out of the psychedelic space. And that's this idea of ethical scaling. Yes. Right? Like that, I think that you're at the forefront of that, my friend. Thank you. Yes. You know, ethical selling is so important because, again, there's so many parts of me, right?

The sabba on my shoulder over here is like, no, dude, 10x that shit. Like, build, build, raise as much money as you can, you know. And then there's this other side that's like, you know, that's not right. You need like-minded, mission-aligned people on your team, investors who understand that, yes, growth is important, but not for, like, reasons that are not directly impacting the world or the mission of the company. And here's an interesting thing that's happening in the world. So if you look at, let's put psychedelics on the side, like industry-wise. if you look at tech companies SaaS software as a service organizations in the U.S., let's just use U.S. for now, in the last four years from like just after the pandemic till now, you started to see a shift.

There's been so many things that are happening. It went from the world is pausing. We need to cut people. make you know it's all about like preserving what you have there's growth is not needed to 2022 comes around like oh we're on the other side of this it's like throw all your money at employees over hire from like meta Facebook to the mom and pop are hiring more than they need to to all of a sudden in the last 18 to 24 months they're like oh wait a second this isn't about growing by any means necessary and over hiring this is about being smart

efficient and managing P&L, profit and loss. And it's like, wait, can we do better and more work with less? And it's like, wait a second, that's not the VC model. That's not the venture capital model. That's not the traditional tech model where you hire 3,000 people and you hope to just like do whatever you can. So now it's now it's this shift of like, no, it's not about 10x growth, 5x growth. There's no formula.

It's about doing better with what you have or less because it's about efficiency and it's about like saving costs, cost savings versus to your point, growing by about, you know, growing at unfathomable rates. And now venture capital still wants that, but they're starting to see a, you're starting to see a shift on how they're investing their money, who they're investing with. So yeah, it's an interesting trend that's happening and it's still going on now. Aside from AI, which is like, you know, you say the word AI and companies are going to, people are going to invest a ton of money because it's groundbreaking and it's going to change the world and already has.

I see that that's what that's what's happening. You're not seeing a big shift. You're not seeing a big thing, a big focus on scale by any means necessary anymore. When you write down the, if you ever writing the word AI, like, you know, just the letters, do you capitalize it or is it in lowercase letters? That's a question. Oh, my God. I do it in so many different ways.

I do like capital, all capital AI. I do like a lowercase I or all lower. Oh my God. I don't, yeah, I don't have no idea. It just begs the question. Like sometimes people see it as this formidable force that's going to take things away from them or they look at it like as a friend and like, all this thing is going to help me change the world on some level.

Yeah. Yeah. It's here. It's here to stay and it's going to life as we know it in the coming. decade is going to look completely different from a work life like work personal environment and i maybe i'm just like too optimistic but i'm optimistic that it's going to be for the greater good versus the the evil side of it if you will yeah i agree 100%. It's it's interesting to see the way in which it's simultaneously brought me to you and all me all these cool people on the planet

and it's it's brought this circle around me that i can never access before but in some ways it's alienating it's It's just getting used to a new paradigm. How do you, how do you as a business owner, as a CEO, as someone who is a lover of life's mysteries, incorporate AI into your life? Yeah, that's such a good question. So business-wise, with the platform, we are going to incorporate AI. It's something, and by the way, I just got to say something. AI has been around for like 30 years. It's just now it's, you know, front and center.

It's the big name. It's been predictive analytics has been around for decades. So I just want to, for the people that are scared or like, what is this crazy shit? The stuff that you've been playing with on your phone and your computer and applications for the last 20 years has had AI in it. I just want to put that out there for everyone. It's just bigger, better, stronger, and front and center. So I just want to throw that out there. For the business itself, I believe AI is going to transform how we look at.

predictive models, meaning me as an end user who wants to integrate experiences, whether it's psychedelic, breathwork, meditation, whatever the modality is, AI is going to help me understand things that I don't understand about myself, believe it or not, because we're tied to technology. And it's going to incorporate things like, hey, Saba, you slept six hours last night versus the eight hours that you should be to, you should be sleeping. Here's what you should be doing for the next couple days and we'll make this recommendation to your practitioner to help, you know, put together something for you. That's really powerful and that's AI is going to transform. It's already

transforming medicine and health. And then understanding like when to use the protocols because of the data points and the aggregation of all of that, like knowing when to use this part of the protocol versus this part because the AI is lurking in the background and understanding, you know, these relationships, these are powerful because now practitioners can get even more prescriptive with their protocols on a client by client basis. That is powerful. Like right now, I can go download an integration PDF from the website, from the internet, which would be good. And I read through it and I follow it. It's nice. But who I am today is going to be completely different to who I am in six weeks and three weeks and two weeks. And the things that happen to me in

my life are going to change, sleep behaviors, diet, medicine, psychedelic experiences. So like, I can't just go back to this, this PDF that is just stagnant. I need something that is fluid that flows with me. And I believe AI will help. So that's the one pocket of for my, for our platform that I believe will be massive help. In everyday life, I use AI to do, do for me that would take that would take so much time. And now I can use that time to be more effective with my business, pick up my son 30 minutes an hour earlier from daycare, from preschool, and take them to the park. So I use it for like administrative purposes quite a bit. Manages my inbox. It drafts emails for me. And then I also use chat GBT to ask for

feedback on these long scripts that I put together and it customizes it, it downcise it, edits it. And these things that would take hours and hours in a week, an hour, you know, a fraction of my time. And I think that's just like, man, that's scratching the surface, George. I'm, I am not an AI power user, but I use it enough to know that like how powerful it can be. And very soon, it's going to incorporate in my phone. if you saw the new Apple announcement, like Siri AI is powerful. Like it's going to start building recipes for me based on like the trends that of like what I'm cooking for my children or for myself.

Like, and then start creating grocery lists. Like, please automate that stuff. Like I want to live life. I'm going to be present and I want to focus on things that are important. And I can't afford a personal assistant right now. So those are the ways that I'm incorporating AI. It's mind blowing. You know, a while back on my chat, GBT account, I got this.

best I said memory full. I'm like, what, what do you mean memory full? And like, I go back and, and I didn't realize that chat GPT keeps a running tab

of all the conversations I've ever had with it. And I'm like, I just sat and I looked at my memory for a little bit. And I'm like, no wonder the answers I've currently be asking

and the relationship I've had with it are so incredibly detailed. And so, like, so unique to me. It's like, oh, my, that's the whole side of me that like,

I'm pretty beautiful. I didn't know this. Thanks, chat, GPT. Hey, you are beautiful, man. That's awesome. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, so let me ask you this one. It does seem to me that there's a really fascinating bridge between the evolution of awareness. And we see it in psychedelics. And on some level, we see it in startups. Like startups is a evolution of awareness. How do you see that relationship between those two things? Between psychedelics and startups? Yep.

Yeah. So I want to tag on something to my previous comments really quickly is the purpose. of AI and automation and these tools, and this isn't a plug for what I'm building, is to get us away from technology even more and bring us back to nature and community. Here's how I look at it. The more you can automate the things in your life that take time, like I mentioned earlier, and the tools that can help you get to a place of clarity, awareness, presence, grounding, then the faster is like, I'm going to go put my feet in the grass.

I'm going to go and meet my friends and spend time with community. So yes, being another device, another app, another platform, it's grueling, it's heavy. I'm first to admit that I have a problem. I spend a lot of time on my phone. However, when we start optimizing these areas in our life, it gets us back to community and nature, which I believe is probably the number one thing we should all be doing in life is being around people that we care about, face to face, and being outside. So I want to just premise that. That's why automation and technology is important and can be used in the right way. And I believe

that there are tools that can help us get back to nature and oneness and community. To answer your question with psychedelics and startups, there's there's two things that stand out to me. I have a kind of a thought process or philosophy that has translated on both sides of that world. Number one, when you're sitting on the psychedelic side, when you're sitting with psychedelics, there are, there are a few, I won't go through all of them, but there are a few things that really stand out to me, right? There's, when you're in journey or ceremony with psychedelics, you are vulnerable. You are transparent with yourself and vulnerable. You surrender. You surrender to whatever it is that comes because you can't push back because we know what happens

when you push back. It's wild shit happens. And so you surrender. You surrender to what is about to come. You're transparent. You're vulnerable. In business, as a leader, you should be doing those same things that kind of highlighted earlier. So as a leader, you're vulnerable, you're transparent. You're surrender and you say like, hey, I'm scared right now because of these things, or I'm worried, or I can't do this. I know I'm the CEO, but I can't do this. And that makes you a better person. It builds trust. It makes your team go to bat for you. So like there's that. Number two is like doing hard shit. When you're sitting in with plant work, plant medicine work, it's going to get hard. It's like there's no doubt about it. It's not always sunshine and rainbows. And those are the moments that

you learn a lot and figure out the things that are most important to you. So you're doing hardship with plant medicine work. And again, when you realize that and the relationship I have with mushrooms, for example, is like, they're cheeky bastards, man. When I'm sitting with them, they come to me, I'm like, ah, this is how I talk to them. I'm like, dude, I see you. I know what's glad to happen. Okay, fine. Damn it. Damn it. Okay, let's go. And I laugh into this hard part, but you're doing the hard things. In startups, same thing. As a leader, as a company, you're going to do hard things.

You have to do the hard things to be successful because it's just the nature of the business. You have to, any business you run. So there's these things that translates from psychedelics to startups. I have a whole list. I have like the six frameworks that I believe in that I'm happy to share after this for notes or anything. Yeah.

But they are mirrors of each other. It's kind of mind-blowing when I did an interviewer, podcast a year ago and they sent me like some pre-vetted questions and I started like not joining it down. I was like, oh my God. I'm looking at like the left and right comparisons. I'm like, this is insane. You know what? I just made a framework for myself that I think could be powerful. So these are just a few of them that like are tied directly to to each other. It's it's interesting to think about the difficult situations you get in when you're under the influence of something. And like there are some dangerous spots in there, man.

Like I've found myself crying or been like, holy shit, I don't want to think about it. And one thing that I've learned is the more you tell you stuff, you don't want to think about it, the harder it comes at you. It's kind of a metaphor for life. It's like it's teaching you, simulating. Like just think about it, embrace it, and then let it go. Like that seems to be a formula that works in those tight spots and translates to real life. 100%.

Man, over the years, you know, we're always told. And not to knock, I'm not knocking anyone or any. guides or practitioners that say, like, write down your intentions and use your intentions during ceremony. I still do it. However, when that moment hits where I have in ceremony or I've taken the medicine and I know that it's going to take over, like those intentions go out the window. The only intention I have is I surrender.

There's nothing else you can do, right? And to your point is like when that thought comes, you're like, okay, we're here. I don't want it, but I understand why it's here. Like, let's go. I surrender to whatever it is. And when you get to the other side of it, like this is just like life. When you get to the other side of fear, you're like, oh, that wasn't that bad. Like, yeah, it was scary.

It kicked my ass a little bit, but I'm better. I'm stronger. And I, and that was actually like really exciting. Again, I've been here before. And that's just such a powerful thing, powerful lesson in life, like from like sitting with plant medicines. I've heard a good saying that says that the people most likely to create the future are the ones, the best way to predict the future is to create it. And it seems to me, as someone like yourself who's involved in the psychedelic space, where do you see the most potential for innovation within this industry? Yeah.

I mean, one is automating outcomes. Like, again, we can't control them, but what we can do is put tools in place that allow. practitioners for example to get back to the core function and that is building relationships and helping people through the work that they're doing their their trauma their PTSD whatever it may be and not working on administrative stuff automating stuff let let the tools and technology do that i think that's number one there's i believe there's a huge opportunity to redefine or adjust these retreat Like there's thousands of retreats out there and I've been to a handful and I'm not saying it's bad. It's just they're all for the most part doing the same thing with insane prices, which I understand why.

Like I respect them and I understand why those prices are high. There's margins, their staff, the legality of it. Like so I get why the costs to some extent are the way they are. But if you are able to build your retreats like a startup, up and be efficient and automate things that are not part of the day to day, that can help people who have, don't have enough money to join a retreat, but really desperately want to. Like, there's ways that we can change the retreat ecosystem and not make it a four-season, you know, type thing or a really dingy thing where you're like fearing for, you know, your safety.

So like there's this middle ground that I think that some retreat centers can make adjustments there. And I don't want to get too like in the weeds there because I don't want to ruffle too many feathers. But I just think that there's ways that we could give access to more people in the retreat environment. And then the last thing I'll say is like education. There are so many certification programs and as they should be. But if you look at education technology, like outside of psychedelics, like ed tech companies that have revolutionized or innovated in education systems, whether it's higher ed or K through 12, what they've done, what a lot of these organizations have done that has been powerful is providing tools that are easily accessible and easily digestible for people to learn. And that has made the ed tech industry what it was for the last 20 years. And it's kind of a little bit of a slump now.

But the giving access and digestibility to people to learn in ways that makes them better is so important versus the traditional, like, you know, education was like text, go to go to a campus, follow these. It doesn't work that way all the time. And then same thing in the psychedelic side. Like some people cannot afford or don't have the time to go to a 12-week program where they have to sit in a Zoom every week and then do their homework assignment. You have to create different ways to educate people. There's a huge, I believe, and maybe someone can do this, that can innovate the education component or the certification component of the psychedelic space.

I'm glad you brought that up. It's fascinating to see all the different certification coming up and the different schools that are popping up. And in some ways, I feel personally that when the instrument becomes an institution, it loses its ability to function. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean by that? Like it just becomes, the blade becomes corrupted once it becomes an institution, probably because of the lack of experience that's transmitted. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah, no, I agree.

I mean, look, again, at some point, you have to figure out how to run a bit. business and make sure that like you don't run you don't go out of business and you're totally right there's there's margins and it's important to be rigid and structured but the moment you start institutionalizing or maybe going too far into the side of institutionalization you start losing people and you start losing like the allure of why you did what you did I don't have an answer for it but what I do know is that between innovation and customization there's this world where people can still you can still run a business effectively and not get too rigid and still be fluid enough to make changes and pivot as faster than than you normally could in an institution, right?

Like in order to move things at like the University of Southern California, it takes time, right? Like big or big higher ed institutions or any big companies, it takes time to move the train, right? Like it's red tape and rigid. And that's where it gets scary, in my opinion. I just had another thought when I lost it. But yeah, that's kind of my thought around that. You know, a lot of the times in our conversation and in other conversations we have with people,

there's this sort of embodiment in these substances, whether it's mushrooms or LSD or, you know, ayahuasca. People talk about these images, these people, these entities that they see. Do you think it's possible that maybe this embodiment, whatever this spirit is, it's embodying these plants, doesn't want to be commercialized? Oh, absolutely. Totally. Like, I, I, look, there, I was at a conference last year, and there, and there was this booth

that was selling ayahuasca tinctures. I was like, what are you doing? I don't understand it. And I don't get it. I, like, I saw, like, ayahuasca gummies. Like there's things that you just, they just needs to stay sacred. I don't like, it just has to stay sacred. I'm all for commercialization.

I think it's good to go to the masses to some extent. But there are, there are sacred medicines that need to stay sacred. And you just got to stay away from it. And medicines are living beings, like plant medicines are living beings. They have consciousness. They have awareness. And some of them are higher beings. And the moment you start fucking with them, they're going to fuck with you.

And there was this beautiful, it was at the same conference. There was this beautiful talk I was at with, I don't remember the details, but there was an indigenous panel. And it was amazing. And what they talked about was the commercialization of like all of the sacred medicines over time. And one of them was like tobacco. It was like tobacco was an ancient medicine. Tobacco was an ancient plant that we respect and revere.

So in the moment that the white. man or the Western culture commercialized it. That is when it turned its back on the people and became toxic and poisonous, not only because of the shit they put in it, but also because the consciousness of the medicine. And so they push back. The medicines push back. They have the consciousness.

So it's like this really interesting balance that I don't have the answer to. And I am the thing that I'm trying to do for my business is like I'm not in the plant medicine business specifically is like, I mentioned this earlier, I'm just the vessel. My goal is to surround myself with councils of elders and practitioners from all sides, Western, spiritual, indigenous backgrounds that can help guide me, guide the business in the way that makes respects the indigenous practices, the ancient medicines, but also understands the scientific rigor and the Western, you know, world we live in. today. So I'm really torn, but there are medicines. My final thing is there are medicines,

plant medicines, psychedelics, and you just leave it alone. Just let it be ancient and let it be sacred. Sorry, let it be sacred and do not commercialize. It's, it brings up a really fascinating point that, that I often think about. And it's the idea and the place of the place for ceremonies and rights of passage. And it seems like on some level. you know, if you think about a rite of passage or for many people you could think about mythology and when you witness that mythology or you grow up in a mythology or you see this myth take place. Let's just take a coming of age ceremony for a young man. Maybe as a young man, as a child, I watch my uncle or my brother go through the coming

of age ceremony where he has to run this gauntlet and then my dad participates on one side and then my grandfather is on the other side. I get to participate. in that ceremony at different stages of my life. So I experience time in a different way. And there's a lot of healing modalities and a lot of understanding of wisdom that moves between that ceremony and that right of passage. It seems is that something that we can transfer into the digital age? I think that that is something that's being asked of us.

How do we come to a ceremonial setting or a rights of passage in a digital age? Hmm. I think it can be done. I don't have the answers to it. Yeah. Maybe the startup is. But I think that that's the question. we're being asked from the past is how do we move this idea of rights of passage into a digital realm where other people can do it?

And I think that you're uniquely qualified on some level to begin answering these questions because you have built these things in different countries. You do speak multiple languages. That's a great question and a good thought-provoking statement is like how do you do that? I mean, I don't have the answer either, but I do believe there are components of what I'm trying to do. and I hope that it translates as one, this council of elders and practitioners, that's important. They're the guiding light into those,

you know, the rites of passages and, and these ancient traditions. Number two is, again, getting back to community and nature. We are a species of people that need to be around people and be outside. Like that's just,

that's what it is. And that in itself is a right of passage. It's really hard in this, digital age because we are just thrown into tech all the time and everything. Everything like we're connected in so many ways. When I get in my car, I'm connected to tech when I'm on my phone, on my laptop. Like everything is just connected. And it's so hard to disconnect from that.

I don't have the full answer. It's just I know that it's like I personally believe it's just this respect and understanding of like if we want to move to this age of like getting back to our roots or getting back into what you just mentioned is showing the respect, having people that are smarter, the elders that are wiser to help guide you versus being this bullheaded individual that takes, you know everything, right? So yeah, I don't have the best answer, but those are the things that come to mind. It's awesome.

I feel like we're at the forefront of solving some of these problems right here. I got some, are you okay on time? How are you doing on time? Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Okay. Awesome. Then I got some other.

I got some sort of deeper philosophical questions. I kind of want to start moving into here. Okay. So psychedelics as cognitive time machines. We've spoken about this a little bit, but could psychedelics serve as a tool to bend or warp our perception of time, allowing us to access memories or even alternate timelines? If so,

how might this change our relationship to past trauma and future aspirations? Hmm. That's a big one. Right? I do believe that psychedelics do warp our perception of time. I also do believe that they do give us access. I believe all that. They warp our time, our perception of time.

They give us access to old memories, even like memories of past lives potentially. And give us access to the future. And I've experienced it firsthand personally on all fronts. And what I think is the important aspect of it is that, again, we've been here before. The construct of time, of course, it's part of who we are in this world. But when you're looking at, when you think about consciousness and oneness, there's no time in consciousness and in the oneness. It's just is. It's always just is.

There's nothing else. It's just there. So when we put these boxes in of like past, present future, that's when we create these insecurities, these vulnerabilities, these misconceptions of what life is. So yeah,

I do believe that's what psychedelics do is open our, again, we are afraid of this. We are scared because it changes everything. Once you realize that, it's like, how do you go back to your normal life without question? It's just it's not possible and I have been there where I have I mean there has been moments in my

Psychedelic experiences where I have sat and watched the story of my life on fielding in different ways and it's like it's almost like choose your own adventures like I'm sitting there. It's like Sabah if you continue to do this that is the path you're going and I'm sitting there watching it happen. I'm like oh my God. If you go to this, path. This is what and it's like, whoa. And then the past stuff, I have felt and seen parts of myself and experiences of myself that I'd never experienced before. And I was like, wait, are you tricking me? Is this real? It's like, oh my God. Yeah. This is part of me. This is the past life that I've had or this experiences of past memories that I have blocked off in my mind because I didn't want to experience it or think about it. Yeah, it's there. And there's, and there's, a reason why it's coming up so let me go there let me sit with it so yeah i agree and the last thing i'll say which is kind of related to all this is like healing should be fun

it doesn't always have to be hard and heavy and scary and oh my god i'm broken and you know you need all the drugs and then help me it's like no it should be fun it should be embracing like again i i want to be respectful of people that are going through like really horrible things in their life and of course it's hard but at the same time like you can do things that are fun to help heal those hard things right yeah um and that's healing in its own it's almost like with depression like getting out and doing something and working or getting your hands dirty in the dirt or going outside those are those things helped with a depressive state um and i think that also goes back to like past present and future of like how you see yourself evolving um with medicines i love it

man, it does seem on some level. Like, we have approached healing with this negative stigma, but shouldn't healing be like part of the ultimate success story? You know what I mean? Like, you heal yourself. Like, that's right there. Yeah, I mean, I've fallen into that where like, you know, talking about my birth. It has always been heavy and hard. But like, that should be fun.

Like, look at me now. Like, I'm a functioning adult and I have two kids and it's like, it's okay. And the way I heal from that is, is half a lot. fun with my children and and and and hug and laugh and joke and like you know it's it's it's a good thing like you know it the other parts of like yeah I mean it should there should be fun aspects of healing it's okay to be like I'm broken and I'm going to go dance my ass off you know like yeah it's a it's that it's that old quote that says growth and comfort can't coexist yep yeah it's mind blowing to me artificial intelligence and the collective

unconscious. You know, Carl Jung spoke of the collective unconscious. In your opinion, do you think AI could evolve to tap into this concept, perhaps even creating a digital form of the collective unconscious where human thoughts, dreams, and archetypes merge into a new kind of consciousness? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it's so scary to think about, but I mean, look, as we evolve as humans, like, again, time is a concept of, like, a construct. of like there I don't I'm not fully educated in this but I do believe in the concept of like

the transfer of consciousness after like our human bodies so like the evolution of the human doesn't just end of like who we are now I believe like with because of technology and technology isn't a like how dare humanity make this I think technology is just part of evolution and soon we are going to like a sci-fi movie like i think there's this world where we don't we don't have bodies anymore and we're just conscious beings in some other form whether it's a robot or a device or something but we're still in this conscious space right um it's so trippy and weird to think about it that way but it makes sense when you start thinking about what conscious is that actually is. Like I just saw this study recently that says that this scientist is his hypothesis is that

the brain doesn't control the consciousness. The consciousness controls the brain and everything else. Therefore, saying that consciousness is its own life and entity without all of these other things. There's something along those lines. And it has you thinking like, oh, yeah, I mean, there's so much validity to that. And what we're doing with what AI, what's happening with AI is like, it is going to collect the collect it is going to download and have the collective unconsciousness of the universe because that's just part of the evolution of mankind yeah yeah I'm not a expert on this but I think there's something there it's it's profound in so many ways it makes me think of the relationship between discovery and creativity you know there's that age old

argument of like did we invent mathematics or we did discover it right It's true with AI too, right? Did we create AI or do we just discover it? Has it been waiting for us to like, hey, look at me over here. Hello, everybody. I'm trying to get your attention, you know? Like, it is the other aware. It's our awareness growing to a point of maturity where we understand and we've discovered this.

Now we can create. What are your thoughts on that? You have any ideas about creativity and discovery or maybe you can add to that? I have lots of thoughts on that. I know you do, man. I think creativity, you know, there's this guy, Naval. He's like a VC super successful investor, technologist, but also incredible, beautiful mind philosopher. Yep.

And one of the things that he believed in with, believes in with AI and the coming of age of with AI in the future is that AI is that AI is going to take over jobs that are that are like blue collar or you know things that don't really use your mind for example and then it could be anything from like you know a janitor to you know like changing light bulbs i'm just using random examples and what that's going to help humanity with is like almost force people to use their mind more to focus on creative on the creatives on the science on medicine and things that like you actually are using your mind way more often and are more creative so that's a kind of like thing that just popped in my mind that i think is really interesting concept um back to your question i think creativity and discovery um is just the way of life like i

I, for the longest time in my life, I never considered myself a creative person because I had put this like unnecessary box around there, that creativity is someone who knows how to like draw, paint is, you know, is like not normal, if you will. Or like, they're just a different type of mind. But what creativity actually means is like you giving yourself the space, the kind of confidence and just non-judgmental environment to do whatever it is you want in whatever world. Like in tech, if you want to be creative in how you approach your, you know, your sales function, like that's creativity.

Like I don't want to do the normal stuff. So I come from this place of like non-judgment and openness. Creativity is that. And what psychedelics does is shuts down, as you know. the prefrontal cortex and shuts down that ego and it just opens you up to this whole new world of like, ah, I see why this flower blooms the way it does. That's just natural like the way it is and that's creative on its own. How can I like then it's like, wait, I can incorporate like this beauty into my own life.

It took me many years and especially as of late and recently to recognize that with creativity comes a lot of responsibility. And here's what I mean. We as humans are should be obligated to build. Whatever it is that building is to build a better environment, a better world for ourselves

and for the future of children or people. And creativity gives you that. Creativity allows you to take risks, allows you to have fun, allows you to tap into your inner child. And the more we can tap into our inner child, kids don't give a shit what you think when they build stuff. We just do it. And they think it's the greatest thing on the planet. And that is so wise on its own.

And that's where I believe is like this beautiful place of discovery and creativity is just like be a child, be free and just do something. something, just write, build, whatever it is that you want to do. And that on its own gives me this, like, feeling of like, yeah, I'm creative. I can discover and be creative. Hopefully that answer you a question. It's just like, it's such a wild concept in my mind. Yeah, I love it. Thanks for sharing it. I think it speaks volumes of on some level the world that we were kind of, the world that we find ourselves working in is a world that doesn't always off, doesn't always is reward creativity. It rewards monotony. It rewards the cog and the wheel. And maybe that's because we needed to have a society of shared sacrifice and wartime. I don't know exactly what it was.

Right. Right. But it does seem like this creative spark is contagious. When I talk to people, I can see a similar through line, this Ariadne thread that runs through the maze of like, hey, look at this person found a thread and then they followed it and took them there. This person found a similar thread, but it took them there. And I get goosebumps when I think about it because it's contagious, right? So true. So true. It's interesting, too, to see, I know in psychedelics, we often talk about things that are ineffable. We find ourselves in situations where I get so clear, but then I try to tell you about it and it's gone. Yeah, of course. It's almost like we're grasping for this idea, but maybe that's the next dimension of language. You know, we're putting together images. We're putting

together conversations that have feelings and in this conversation both of us I got goosebumps like what is that is that real is that what meaningful dialogue looks like is that what we're headed to when we talk to each other all of a sudden I understand what you're saying like yeah the evolution of communication happening I know it's a big question but yeah that's a really that's a big one but like my first thought was like I saw this meme recently where it was like hey I've taken he's like I just took some psychedelics I can't wait to tell you about it and it's just like face of like I roll. Yeah.

But no, it's, you know, when, for me personally, like, the evolution of like relationships, communication or how we, you know, like spend time with each other has really evolved. I, you know, I still love the banter, small talk type of environment. It's just, it's part of life. But where I have come to this real estate. and what has psychedelics has helped me is like, I want to talk about deep things. Like it doesn't have to be heavy,

but it should be like deep and real. And I find myself, I've come to this space where if I'm in the right place with the right people, I'm going to talk about whatever it is on my mind. And it also, what that does is creates a ripple effect of like, I created the space to, to be comfortable with sharing. And now someone else is like, well, if Saba is sharing about this,

then you know what, I feel pretty good. And maybe I may want to share about it. And it just opens up this dialogue of like, let's really get to know each other and not just be surface level of like, oh, this is my political affiliation. Or, you know, I like this sports team. And it's deeper than that, right? And I do really think there's an evolution there.

and getting, I mean, getting people to do more drugs may help, but getting people in a space that you're comfortable to drop in and create an environment that is, that you feel safe. That's the type of place. Like, you know, when we throw these awesome, like, events get togethers here at our home, it's part of the psychedelic community, but it's also just like groups of friends. We just sit in the backyard on cushions and people just sit there and talk. And it's just, it's beautiful because they share everything. And, you know, sometimes there's plant medicine involved. And other times it's just, we're just there, like hanging out. And that, to me, it's like, brings, fills my cup.

Because at the end of the day, you're getting hugs and goodbyes. And people are like, I am so grateful that there's this space that we can talk about this. like, wow. Like what else is like, does anything else matter at that moment? Then having someone feel loved and feel like they can be themselves and they can share whatever it is they want, small or big. Like, does there anything else matter? You know, like, what else does matter?

That's just, that's community. That's love. And that, that to me is the evolution of like how we, you know, can continue, like, having relationships and talking and communicating. Yeah. It blows my mind because early in the conversation you had referenced like Rumi and the Sufi poets, you know, and even medieval mystics. Like there's something to be said about meaningful dialogue that.

And doesn't that also sort of harken back to what you said about AI, freeing us up to be outside? Maybe being outside means being outside ourselves and having that meaningful conversation, right? Yeah. And isn't the next logical step for, for people that are building companies to have their message, their core values about that company resonate like a Sufi poet.

You know what I mean? Like that's the messaging that resonates with people. Yeah. No, you're right. I mean, look, if you, when you go look, if you Google right now, what is a mission vision statement? It's very much that, right? The mission and the vision statement of a company is like our mission is to do.

do X. And it's this powerful message that brings people together, whether it's internal or external. And our vision is how we're going to get there. And it's like, oh, my God, yeah, I'm for this. I want to buy this or I want to work here because it gives that same resonance and power to it. So that's why it's important. I spent ungodly amounts of time on my mission vision statement and the manifesto because it was my blood and sweat and tears and my heart and my passion and I wanted it to resonate with people and the world not just like, hey, come by this. It's more like, I want this, I want you to feel this deep in your core because that's why this is this matters. And yes, there is that. And you know, some companies do it well. And then of course they live and die by it. And others like

put it in there and then don't don't really follow it. But I think like, living that mission and vision and vision statement, whether it's a company or your life. And it kind of similar to what I said. It was like, my awesome advisor who was like, you need to live integration. And it was like, ah, yeah, you got to live it to build it. Right. So, yeah. It takes me down this other idea of, you know, especially in startups or if we can agree

that an idea is a living thing and you have an idea and you present it usually in the startup community or even families or whatever, you invite. people in to your idea versus hiring someone on. Is that the evolution of the chief philosophy officer versus HR? But what do you think about inviting people in instead of hiring people? Yeah, I love that. So here's the thing. Everybody has ideas.

It's about actually doing something with those ideas or putting it out there. And not all ideas are great, but it's the confidence in putting it out there. I think that is important. And the invitation I really like because there's this when you invite people to whatever it is you're inviting them, some are going to come. Right. And some are not. And I wholeheartedly believe in, let's say in the business side or like if you're selling a product or a business, your product is should and is not for everyone. And that's okay.

That's okay. So like you invite the people, you put this out there. Here's my invitation. Here's the description of my invitation. I invite you to come. And you just leave it there. And that is perfectly fine. And I love that because I see my business and I've been coaching teams for so many years of like, hey, we're not for everyone.

And that's okay. Right. And to be a little bit cheeky in a business setting, when you tell, here's a tip, hot tip for anybody in the business world who's trying to earn business. when someone is giving you a difficult time trying to like, you know, push back on your product or your pricing, when you tell them, again, you come from a place of like love and empathy and understanding and say, hey, thank you. I understand. And, you know, this is not for everyone. Have a nice day. Some people are like, wait, why is it not for me? Right. What do you mean? It's not for me. Should I learn more? And it's, it's not like we're not tricking anyone.

it's just saying that like, hey, this is not for you. And then it makes them think, well, why is it not for me? Am I looking at it at the right lens? You know what? Pricing isn't the only problem. I'm so stuck on price. It is actually really important for me that I buy this, right? So it opens up this thought exercise of like, not everyone can be invited,

but it's an open invitation type of thing. So a little bit of a rant because this stuff excites me on like strategy. But yeah, I like that a lot. I love the invitation. How dare you bring it back to Bruce Lee and be like water? Always back to Bruce Lee. So, you know, if we take it on a psychological level and we continue to push out on the tree a little bit, you know, as we integrate with technology, could we transcend traditional relationships? And like what might words like love or words like integrity?

What might they look like in a world where consciousness can be uploaded, shared, and merged between humans and artificial beings? Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know why this just comes to my mind, but I'll say it anyways, and hopefully it answers this question or it's relevant. I'm going to use the broader we. I'm not saying everyone is like this, but I think a big population has or was or is like this, including myself. I used to be this way. We spend most of our lives thinking about the external, the promotion, the money, the house, the car, these things that feel like have a lot of meaning and we put so much weight on it.

And to some extent, some of them are important to have. But it's all external. A lot of it is external. and we forget or neglect to focus on internal, on what is our internal operating system like? What do we believe in? What are our visions? What are our thoughts?

What do we believe in? What are things that are important to us, me internally, first and foremost? And I'll use me as an example. I spent most of my life being that external guy. and it brought me from what I thought a lot of success and feeling of like grandeur and feeling like I'm being loved and all of that were deep down inside it was all surface level and when I shifted to focus on internal like oh my God it is about me and this was of course with plant medicine it was like wait who am I what do I believe in what are my value in what are my values

use, that was the moment where I was like, number one, oh, yeah, none of that stuff matters. It's about internal. So when I am aligned with my internal operating system, then everything else will fall into place. The people are my relationships, my business, my work, because I'm aligning what I believe in to the external stuff versus the other way around. And that was this moment of like, yeah, that's number of. one and number two, I'm going to teach my son. He's going to learn street sports. He's going to learn

external. But the number thing, my son and daughter, the number thing that my kids are going to learn is know thyself, know internally who you are, what you believe in, and then everything, that will guide you externally. So I say all that to say is back to your question is, when we have this belief system of who we are internally, then love has no bounds. Like, whether it was technology or not, like all of that is connected, but we know deep down inside that we have an anchor and that anchors are internal. So I think that connects the dot. If not, I'm happy to try again, but that's where my head went.

No, I love it. I had a really cool talk with Dr. Sebastian Mar and Kolo, and he wrote part of his thesis on the idea of folk psychology, and he used words like love and, you know, these really big ideas. He goes, it's kind of like math. Like we don't really know what that is. So when I get to, I ask that question because I think it's, I think we are redefining these big ideas of what these things really are. Like they were magic. We don't really know what's happening in the brain or the mind-body connection. And, you know, it's, it's so fascinating to hear you talk about explaining this concept of a huge term, not only in your words, but in generational terms. In some ways, you know, you're getting to see the evolution happen. I don't know. It's fascinating to me, man. Thanks for sharing it like that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So here's another one too. Neuroscience means metaphysics.

If the brain is both a receiver and a transmitter of consciousness, could psychedelics and technology together allow us to tune in to other frequencies of consciousness, perhaps accessing the minds of others or even different life forms? You just blew my head off. I mean, yes, there's something there. there's definitely something there like recently um i won't for just for the sake of like security and safety um i was at a conference that was a private setting where um a group of neuroscientists put on a um emr brain scanner on

me and i took a hit of a dm t vape pen and they in front of like 25 people on a big screen monitored like my brain functions of like what happens with the DFT was super fascinating. But the point that I'm like what comes to my mind is like we connected a device to my brain that monitored the activity to it and externally people saw it. And then the neuroscientist studied it and had this like outcome from it like, oh, the left side of your brain was firing on all cylinders when you took the first hit versus the side or something like that, right? And so there's this huge belief that psychedelics are pathways to communicating to other spirits to other people. So I think there's something there.

Like we barely scratch the surface of like how our brain functions. And I mean, there's so much there now. And there's so much amazing work. And I have some dear friends that are neuroscientists. But we've barely scratched the surface. And I do think there's this like communication portal between psychedelics, the mind, and others. But again, man, you're asking the wrong person. I've experienced some of it, like personally. And then, you know, that EMR experience, like, that was really cool. Yeah, I love asking the deeper questions like that because I,

so many people that I speak to have sat out in nature during, after, or before a psychedelic journey. And it's like, you know, we talk about, oh, I got this download. I heard this message, I heard a voice. Like, it's really difficult for me, regardless of what word you choose to call it, that seems to be another entity speaking to us in some way. And it's happening more and more frequently. You know, and you can see it everywhere.

The patterns are, I always get this example of, I remember sitting out in my yard before I left Hawaii, and there's this vine that would climb up a palm tree. And I remember just tripping out, like, how does it know to climb halfway up that tree? And then at July 3rd, at 3.33 p.m. It drops at a 43 degree angle. Like that is intelligence.

And it's telling me there's a plan. You know, it's like I had a full conversation with this plan. Like not in words, but in a meaningful way. Like that's a real dialogue between us and nature. Totally. You know, this reminds me of like going back to consciousness. My therapist, actually, my therapist is a wise, wise, wise human. And we were talking about meditation.

And he asked me, he was like, what is your, like, what do you believe meditation is? And I, you know, gave him my explanation. And he's like, yeah, that's one way to look at it. I was like, okay, so that means that's wrong. I'm not saying it. But what he said was so mind-blowing to me that I haven't been able to shake it. And I haven't written down. And he said that meditation is a practice that reveals my true self to myself.

And what he was describing is that. there's two dimensions to our being. One is our conditioned self, our ego, that we have our, you know, and then we have our consciousness. And our consciousness is this sense of presence, awareness, freedom. You can call it God, nature, etc. And he was saying that in meditation, what meditation does is brings us to our true self. And our true self is our consciousness. So when you sit with your consciousness, your consciousness starts talking to you in ways that it normally doesn't.

Those downloads and those words and it could be, you know, consciousness. Like some people say consciousness is God, right? Or Buddha state or Buddha nature, right? So we can say whatever that entity is, but consciousness is our true self. And it's in those moments of meditation where you are fully in consciousness is like when you get those downloads or your awareness, your presence. And it's like, oh, I see. That does make sense. So back to that question, you're just saying, yeah, like, there is this, like, communication

portal. And again, like, every spiritual text says it in a different way of, like, what consciousness means, right? So I thought that was, like, important to share because, like, it's super, like, it's just there's something there for sure. Yeah. I think we're, again, as we are talking to different. people and you were speaking with some neuroscientists.

I heard some really interesting ideas. Like, what would it mean if we classified psilocybin as an exogenous neurotransmitter? Like, what would that open up? Like, oh, this is something that's part of us, but it's not in us. You know what I mean? Like, that just, it just changes the lens. They say sometimes science dies one person at a time or something like that. Yeah.

We're on the cusp of it, Saaba. But there's real radical changes that are happening in our lifetime that are going to fundamentally shift the way our children inhabit the world, man. You're so right, man. You're so right. It's, it's mind-blowing and amazing. It is.

And I'm here for it. Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be amazing. I, um, I've taken up a lot of your time. And I, and you know what, this has been amazing. Yeah,

I know, man, it's so much fun. I know, um, I hope you come back. I want, my goal is to start doing some more panels and bringing in more people and

bouncing that conversation around. So, but before I let you go, man. Yeah. Yeah. Before I let you go, I just want to say thanks again for everything. I hope everybody.

I can go down to the show notes. I know maybe you can kick me some stuff I can put in the show notes when I publish it to the podcast. But go down and reach out to Saba. He's part of he's doing all these cool accelerators. I always see him out there. He has got a really cool business he's doing. And I think that he's inviting the world to bring cool people to him. So go check him out, reach out to him if you're interested in what we're talking about.

Where can people find you? What are you coming up and what are you excited about? Yeah. First of all, thank you for this was such an amazing conversation. George, you're the man. Dude, this was awesome. And I will take you up on the offer of coming back because this is great. And I'll do it again.

So just keep me in mind. So thank you. Where can people find me on Instagram or LinkedIn? My LinkedIn is my first last name, obviously. Instagram is, and I'll send it for your show notes. It's Saba, S-A-B-B-A- underscore get-G-E-T-Z-E-H-N. What am I working on? I'm so excited of the launch of,

this integration platform. The name is Safar in Persian that translates to Journey. And we're building a beautiful tool that allows practitioners and coaches to manage their protocols, their integration protocols with their clients. I'm not saying it's groundbreaking, but it's going to be a game changer in the space. And the idea is that you're able to customize protocols for each of your clients and let them work on this app together so they can follow their integration and manage. And at end of the day, heal and get better. More to come. Launch is going to be in the next six to eight weeks, but yeah, stay tuned for Sapphire. It's amazing. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you have a beautiful day. Salba, hang on briefly afterwards, but to everybody else, thank you so much for

hanging out with us. I hope you have a beautiful day, and I hope that you realize you're part of this magnificent transformation that's happening. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.