TrueLife - Selisha Abbas - The Aesthetic Beauty of Microdosing

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/selisha-abbas-11581b208https://www.swankaesthetics.org/Selisha Abbas, is the owner and operator of Swank Aesthetics - Medical Aesthetics &Beauty. A licensed Advanced (Medical)Aesthetician, Esthetician, Hair Stylist and Nail Tech. Licensed in cosmetology and aesthetics since 2007; in 2020, she became an Advanced Medical Esthetician. She has been a registered instructor for 10 years, and teachs Medical Aesthetics at Spectrum Advanced Aesthetics Institute in Tigard, Oregon.In 2019, she found her love for all things lashes! I am Borboleta Certified in Classic and Volume Lashing Techniques. She also offers Lash Lifts, Brow Lamination, waxing and tinting. I offer a variety of treatments including Laser Skin Rejuvenation such as spider vein reduction, pigment reduction, Physician Strength Chemical Peels, Traditional Microneedling and Radiofrequency Fractional Microneedling, LED Light Therapy, Nonsurgical Breast and Booty Lifts, Nonsurgical Body Sculpting including Fat Freezing, Laser Lipo and Ultrasonic Cavitation, Acoustic Wave Cellulite Reduction, Laser Hair Removal, Laser Tattoo Removal, Plasma Fibroblast Skin Lifting & Tightening, Lash & Brow Services and more! One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope the birds are singing, the sun is shining. We got an incredible guest for you today. We're going to learn a lot about the world of aesthetics and beauty and microdosing.

And we're going to do it with a new friend of mine, a Mrs. Salisha Abbas. She's an author and educator, an aesthetics consultant, a microdose mentor, and so much more. We're going to get to know her and we have a little bit of a delay. So bear with us if it seems as if the conversation may have a little bit of a lack. But that's what we got for today. Salisha, how are you today? I am doing well, George. How are you today?

I am doing fantastic, thank you very much. I am really excited to get to have you speak with me today because I am fascinated by the world of aesthetics. Can you tell me and the people what aesthetics is and what it is that you do? Of course. I would love to share that with you and all of the people listening. So I am what's called a certified advanced esthetician. and aesthetics broadly just kind of refers to like scare or excuse me skincare and caring for the skin and hair. So what I do is an advanced esthetician is take a more medical or clinical approach to aesthetics. So I utilize more medical devices like lasers to help resolve conditions

like acne, rosacea, scarring, severe sun damage. I do tattoo removal. And my specialty really is hair restoration through advanced aesthetics modalities. And I love mushrooms. So I'm super excited to talk about everything aesthetics and everything mushrooms today. Nice. Let's do it. What one of the questions I was thinking about when I saw that you were like a microdose mentor. how has that influence the world of aesthetics and the work that you do? In my mind, I thought that maybe, wow, I bet you she sees different color patterns, or maybe she's able to see things that other people don't, or maybe you're able to give some people you're working with different insights.

Are those things you've experienced? Or what is the relationship you think between microdosing mushrooms and aesthetics? Well, I think that there's a lot of connections, really, because if we think about beauty and look at what the definition of beauty, really is. I think the Oxford Dictionary says that the definition of beauty is a quality characteristic or combinations of those things that bring pleasure to our senses, to our mind, or to our spirit. And I feel very much that way about mushrooms and psychedelics. My personal experience with microdosing is I feel like it has made me so much more appreciative of, you know,

beauty in the world, but it also has really sharpened my clarity and my focus. And so the way that it kind of impacts me in aesthetics is I feel like I'm now a better practitioner and it makes me more human so I can really connect people and really help them heal, whether it's from something spiritual, if they're struggling with some aesthetic need like scarring or acne that's really impacting their self-esteem. And it makes me more empathetic and compassionate. So I feel like a lot of what I do in aesthetics is healing. And so aesthetics and psychedelics really kind of go hand in hand in that healing and beauty journey that is our life, really. Yeah, that's so well said. I'm glad you, I'm glad you said it that way. It seems to me, the women in my life, when they go to get,

whether it's a laser treatment or get their hair done or when they spend time in the spa or with an esthetician that they know it's almost like a therapy class for them they can because they go there for an hour or two and maybe even longer and there's so much bonding going on there and it seems to me the person that is doing their hair is in a way trying to help them come the best person they can in a way Like they're trying to increase their attractiveness or their beauty or their connection. But there is this relationship between the person that is that is the esthetician or the person that's, there's a, there's a relationship there. And I think that microdosing and mushrooms do cause that relationship to be even tighter.

Have you noticed that since you've been working with mushrooms, that your relationship with your clients has been at a higher level? 100% those connections with my clients have only gotten deeper. And as I have really delved into the world of mushrooms, it's become like an obsession to me. I always tell people that I'm an accidental psychonaut because I was very much raised in the world of dare. You know, 75% of U.S. high schools, middle schools are still using the DARE program. And for me, growing up in that sort of atmosphere really drove me away from any sort of plant medicines or drugs, because to me, drugs were drugs, and they were all very bad. And so what I noticed as I got a little bit older and started to

explore those different realms and possibilities is that it really makes for a much more deep and human connection. And that's why I got into aesthetics was so that I could help people and heal them so that they would feel as beautiful on the outside as they feel on the inside or just being able to help improve their self-confidence. So I absolutely feel like mushrooms have deepened my connection with the world, with nature, with my fellow human beings, with animals. It's just given me a whole other perspective and really opened my mind to another pathway and other realms of beauty in this world.

It's so true. You know, you're up in, I think you're up in Oregon. Have you ever thought about maybe opening up or having your practice? Like you have your own esthetician and you do all the work there, the things that you do, whether it's lasers or working on the skin or working on the hair. and incorporating like mushrooms into that too? Actually, yes. So it's funny that you say that.

I am in Oregon. So I kind of do a few different things. I'm kind of like a Jackie of all trades, I guess, when it comes to aesthetics and wellness. My primary job is I work for Spectrum Advanced Estatics Institute, but I'm also an educator for a clinical cognitive facilitator training. So my boss, Mary Nielsen, owns an aesthetic school, and she owns a psilocybin facilitator training program. So I spend my time teaching aesthetics, but I also teach psilocybin facilitator training. But I also have my own business as swank aesthetics.

So I have my own suite where I see clients on Fridays and offer them skincare treatment. like microneedling, laser hair removal, fibroblast, skin rejuvenation, things like that. But I also frequently talk with my clients about microdosing and the benefits of microdosing. And several of my clients have now reached out to me because they want to start microdosing. And so I've kind of taken on this mentor role for people who are interested in microdosing. But I actually do teach aesthetics and I do teach mushrooms. as well, and it makes for such a beautiful, harmonious and happy career path for me. You do seem really happy.

Like, you are crushing it. You're doing two things that you love to do. You're helping people out. You can get microneedling and microdosing at the same spot over there. It's so awesome to me. I'm so stoked for you. Can you tell us a little bit about this facilitator course? Like, what is it, like, what, let's say that there's somebody, that there's a young

Silesia or there's a young George that, want to get involved in something like that. What is the facilitator course and what does it look like? Absolutely. So I know from listening to previous episodes that you have had Tim Oliver on who was talking about Measure 109 in Oregon, but for those who maybe don't really know what that is, let me just kind of give you the broad strokes. So in 2020, Measure 109 was passed by Oregonians, which created the first licensed and regulated adult use model for psychedelics in the United States. And it launched into a two-year development period after that with psilocybin services becoming legal in Oregon as of January of 2023.

So I work as a facilitator trainer, and what Measure 109 did was establish a licensing structure so that people could learn about the history of psychedelics, their therapeutic and mental health benefit uses, as well as how it's been used in indigenous practices for healing up into different clinical trials that they've been. done with psychedelics. So they created a licensing structure. And now in Oregon, psilocybin or magic mushroom consumption is legal with a licensed facilitator in a service center. So what I do as part of my facilitator training is work with young Solicias or young Georges who are really interested in going down this healing pathway. And so I teach. teach them all about safety and ethics and how to properly prepare your clients for a journey,

how you non-directively help facilitate that journey in a service center, and then different integration tools so that they can take what they've learned throughout the course of those journeys and really integrate it into their life for more fulfillment, better mental health, just a better life, all in general. And so the program is 120 hours of didactic or theory training, learning all about how to do this safely, what the risks are, you know, how we really provide that healing support and pathway for our clients. And then they have 40 hours of practicum where they actually are facilitating with people from the public coming in so that they have the opportunity to work with them. through those sessions and really get this exposure to the medicine before they get their license and then can go out into the world and really just help people with healing.

Because I know you know this, but there's so many amazing benefits to psychedelics. I feel like we've really only scratched the surface on how it could really help everyone moving forward. So it's really exciting. It's something I'm super passionate about. I know that there's a lot of pause and a lot of hesitation about these regulated models for plant medicine, but I'm just really excited that our government is starting to see that there are other models for healing, not just the pharmaceutical pathway. That's really well said.

I can tell that you are a facilitator and that you've gone through it. And more than that, I can tell how passionate you are about it. I'm happy to see people that are going out of their way to try to make other people's lives better. And it sounds to me that Oregon is going to be the testing ground for that. I'm so excited to see what comes out of there. As you were talking, I realized that you have a lot of licenses for skin care and being an esthetician and working at your own corporation and working at Spectrum as well. What do you think is more difficult to get?

difficult to get the license to be an esthetician or is it more difficult to get a license to be a facilitator it is definitely i think more difficult to become an esthetician the training hours required for esthetician licensure are like three times higher than that of what a facilitator is required to complete um you know but it's also a very different type of healing um with psilocybin facilitators in Oregon, they are supposed to non-directively facilitate sessions, which means that really the client is leading their own journey. And we're just kind of there as a guide in case they start to have a really difficult experience and need a little bit of redirection. But for the most part, we're just sitting with them and holding space for them. We are not a

therapist. We're not directing this journey for them. We are literally just holding space for them in case they need support. The esthetician takes a much more active and hands-on role. So they need to learn more about anatomy and physiology of the skin. Chemistry because they work with different chemicals like chemical peals that cause exfoliation. They do facial massage. So they are very much hands-on on with their clients where facilitators are more hands off. Like I said, we're just here to hold space and support you if you need us. So different, but still in that healing pathway. Yeah.

Is there some insurance similarities too? Like I don't even know if you would know this, but it seems to me that that is one thing that people in the space of psychedelics are figuring out right now is this idea of how do you insure this particular thing? And I guess that's why people need to go to an institution to have it done. Do you know anything about that part? So there is some liability around psilocybin, and it can be difficult to find insurance, but there are insurances out there.

I know that when cannabis kind of went mainstream in several states with legalization, they had some of the same struggles. So luckily, that path was forged a little bit through legalization of cannabis. So it is a little bit more challenging to find insurance, but there are a lot of places that offer it. I know that at clinical cognitive, we didn't have any issue finding insurance. We found two different companies. I'm not sure what they are, but that wasn't an issue for us. And there's a lot of different insurance available for us to titions.

So it can be more challenging because of psilocybin's Schedule I status. It does make that slightly more challenging. But like I said, there are banks and insurance companies that are willing to work with us on that. So it's great. One thing I really love to think about, Salish, is patterns. Like I see them everywhere, whether it's in the books that I read or the people I talk to. And I'm confident that as an esthetician or someone who's currently helping solve people's problems, that you see patterns as well. Like let's say, for example, somebody comes in and you're like, oh, I know how to do this particular style of chemical peel or your skin is this way, so we should use this product.

Are you seeing patterns not only in the esthetician world, but are you beginning to see patterns that are in the microdosing world? And do those cross over at all? Very much so, yes. There is surprisingly a lot of crossover. A huge trend or pattern that I'm seeing right now in both aesthetics and the psychedelics field, honestly, is the push toward more integrative and natural solutions. One of the programs that we have at Spectrum is the certified nutrition esthetician program because people are wanting to look their best, but they're not necessarily wanting to just do fillings. and Botox and artificial implants. They're wanting to look their best, but still feel their best and be the healthiest version of themselves. And I see that a lot in psychedelics, too. People are searching out

alternative methods of healing and beauty, for that matter, to make themselves feel better. We are coming off so much trauma in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic. And people are just, frantically trying to hold onto or even find themselves after we've all been put through such a roller coaster the last several years. And so that's the pattern that I've really recognized is how do we integrate this into our life? How do we use these tools to make our life better and filled with more beauty? So I see that pattern. And I don't think it's going away. I think it's just going to keep going that direction. And so I really think that, you know, nutrition, health, wellness, well-being, work-life balance is really what our society is headed towards

for beauty, for psychedelics, basically just for the human condition and to make us all feel better and restored. I love it. It brings me to this idea of when we talk about microdosing, if we switch gears and go back to microdosing for a little bit, is there a certain protocol that you guys, or that you in particular, or the company you're working with chooses to follow like the Thademan protocol, or do you guys have like a different type of protocol, or are there multiple avenues people can explore? There is definitely multiple avenues that people can explore.

My kind of personal journey with microdosing, I bought the microdoser's guidebook and followed, in love with that book. And it's written by C.J. Spotswood, I believe, is his last name, but he is a psychedelic mental health nurse practitioner. And I really used that guidebook to shape my own microdosing journey. So I started out with the Fateman Protocol. And then I've also worked through the Stammet Stack protocol as well. And now I'm kind of in that position where I'm looking for what works best for me with my plant medicine journey. And I've kind of noticed that my personal journey, it's better for me if I microdose every other day. But with clinical cognitive, when we're

teaching, we do teach about the fatamine protocol, the stamet stack. But then also, you know, as you gain experience and start to understand how you do with plant medicine, that will shape your microdose journey. And your body will know, you'll know when you feel best and what protocol works best for you with microdosing and how it integrates best into your life. That's so awesome. I love that you're teaching people how to use the medicine in a way that feels right for them. I'm curious, too.

It seems like, you know, there are a lot of loggerheads in the space sometimes, especially when it comes to like pharmaceutical companies and some treatment centers. And one of the areas that people often talk about is this idea where on some level, people are worried that people who begin using psychedelics are going to be put on some sort of subscription plan where they need to come in and they can only get their microdosing through a certain way where other people are teaching, other teaching their clients, like this is how you use it and this is the way we use it. then they kind of set them free. What is your take on that space? Do you think that that is an issue that

people are working against? I think I know exactly what you're asking. So in Oregon, we've kind of got two different situations going on right now because we do have this regulated framework that was brought to us by Measure 109. And in the Measure 109 framework, there are allowances for microdosing, But there are some limitations with the Measure 109 framework as it's currently written. It was written into statute or law that you have to consume psilocybin in a licensed service center. So that did create a little bit of a barrier to access because as of January, now psilocybin services are legal in Oregon, but there are not any service centers that have opened yet. So we've got that model,

but then we also have the kind of underground model or working in the gray area. And I think that we'll really see both of those in Oregon. And as we kind of diverge from a 100% pharmaceutical model, I think that it's going to be kind of how the medicine works best for you in what sort of pathway you choose to get to that medicine. Because I can see a future where we have these service centers that are kind of like a Starbucks, where you pull in, you grab your morning microdose, you hang out for a few minutes,

you know, maybe you do some affirmations or a meditation session, and then you're on your way. Maybe you do that a few times a week because that's how microdosing best integrates into your life. but I can also see a place where, you know, people may not want to go to that Starbucks type facility or to a healing center. And maybe they really want to have that personal healing journey. So I think that those are the people that are going to seek out mentors and be like, you know, how do I use this medicine myself? What are the tips that you can give me to get me started on my journey? but really this is deeply personal and I want to do it on my own. So I think that we're going to really have both of those opportunities and models of healing

coexisting. Obviously, only one of those is a legal pathway. But what kind of a price can you put on healing and happiness? Yeah, I think it's priceless. And self-discovery is something that it's so rewarding. And it seems to be a pattern if you can continue to find the right path to walk down. I'm curious if we've talked about microdosing. But in your life or in the life of your clients, do you ever find yourself microdosing for a while?

And then being like, I'm going to take a walk on the wild side here and take like a larger dose. And if so, how do you incorporate that into your, into your, platform. Definitely. So I actually, I'll tell you a little bit about my personal experience with psychedelics and how that's kind of shaped my thoughts and processes to this point. I did mention earlier that I'm an accidental psychonaut and I'll tell you kind of a little bit more about that. I have a lot of chronic health problems and unfortunately about five years ago I got really sick. And my husband was a cannabis user, but that, as I mentioned earlier, I grew up very much in the dare world. And to me, all drugs were bad. Like, I was going to go jumping out a three-story

window if I did that. So when I became really ill, my husband told me to do the research, because I am a researcher. I love to learn. I'm kind of a nerd. And so he goes, I just want you to do the research about cannabis. You have a lot of nausea and a lot of illness. You're vomiting a lot. And I really think that something that's not a pharmaceutical might be able to help you. If you do the research and you decide that it's not for you, I will not bring it up again. But just do the research because I think it could help you.

So I did. I did the research. And I decided to start using cannabis. cannabis to help with my stomach condition. Now, I have something called gastroporesis, which means paralyzed stomach. So I frequently am nauseous, vomiting, malnutrition. My stomach just doesn't work properly and digest food properly. So that was kind of the beginning of my plant medicine journey. And then about a year ago, I was out spectrum teaching and I was talking to my boss and she's like, hey, I think I'm going to open a psilocybin training program. And I was like,

Silla what? I don't know what psilocybin is. Can you say that again? Can you spell it for those of us in the back that don't know what it is? And she's like psilocybin. She's like the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. And she's like, you know, under Measure 109, it's becoming legal. She's like, I think this is a new pathway where we can really expand. We're already in aesthetics and wellness, and this will help us help with other conditions. She's like, so I'm really interested in it. And I'm like, okay, I was very hesitant, but I started doing research and then I fell in love with psychedelics. And I probably researched psychedelics and absorbed everything I could about mushrooms for about six months before I even tried to incorporate them into my own life because I was afraid.

And I'll tell you why. I have a family history of addiction. My aunts and uncles, my father, my brother are all in recovery. So not only did I grow up in this dare world, but then I personally had a front seat to a lot of addiction in my life and helping. And help. my brother a lot through addiction. He is now in recovery and doing very well. But I watched that, but I had this very big fear in the back of my brain that if I tried anything, I was going to like it too much, and then I was going to be addicted. And so a lot of the research that I did initially about psilocybin and mushrooms was, is it addictive? Because I don't want to find something and then become addicted to it and end up with a substance abuse issue.

I've bent down that with my family and it's challenging. It's very challenging. So that was a lot of the research that I did. And after learning more about plant medicine and mushrooms, I'm like, okay, I think I'm still nervous, even though I know that it's not addictive, I'm still nervous. So I'm going to start out microdosing instead because I really had no. no idea what to expect. I had read so much information about macrodose or big journeys and was a little bit terrified. I'm also a little bit of a control freak. I will admit it. I'm very type

A. OCD. So the idea of relinquishing that control was really, really challenging for me. So last November, I decided to start microdosing. And I used my microdose guidebook as my protocol book. And I started out on the Fateman Protocol. And I kept a journal and set intentions. And I was so impressed with how much better I was feeling on days that I microdosed. I just felt like the best version of myself. And I'm like, this is amazing.

Um, thing, you know, the colors were crisper. The leaves were brighter. Um, I felt more on top of my game. And I also noticed that my day to day anxiety was reducing. And so then I was like, you know, I really do think that I want to do some healing. And I think that I need a macro dose to achieve that because I've had my own set of trauma as we all have in our life. And, So I did some planning and set some intentions on what I wanted to work through on my first journey and scheduled a time and date to do it. So I did my first macro dose journey also in November of last year. And if you've ever heard that saying that we plan and God laughs, that is very much how I felt about my macro journey is. I did all this planning and preparation and everything that I had planned for is not what my macro journey was, but it's what I needed. So I firmly believe that mushrooms don't give us what they want. They give us what we need in our life. And that kind of started this really beautiful obsession and love of mushrooms.

And since I've done three other macro journeys, and I've really taken. a lot of enlightenment. It's allowed me to really forgive some people that have hurt me in the past and to move past those traumas and just become the best version of myself. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that story. I'm always curious to find out what it is about someone who's trying to help other people. In the beginning of your story, you would mentioned that people in your family have battled with addiction before. And do you think that seeing, and you've already mentioned it a little bit, but do you think that seeing that battle in your family with addiction? And I'm not a doctor, but this is just us kind of giving our opinions

here. Do you think that possibly in the future, you could see some sort of protocol with mushrooms being used to help people with addiction? Absolutely. And that is part of what about psychedelics and mushrooms is so intriguing to me. Going through that with my brother was one of the hardest things I've ever dealt with in my whole life. And watching his struggle and seeing how our current Western medicine, model does not fit for everybody. I wish that I had known then what I know now about psychedelics, because I feel like my path to helping him would have been very different. So I do see that there's

such a huge potential to help people that are suffering from substance abuse disorders, whether it's opiates or methamphetamines or alcohol, really any sort of dependent. And I do feel like that psychedelics have the power to truly help and resolve those at a level that we're not going to see with a traditional recovery model. I agree. That's really well said. Now, if I were to go 180 degrees, there's some people that, and probably you and I, before we even thought about psychedelics, we had this same frame of mind that, hey, you're going to take this thing and you're going to jump out of window. You're going to be running around naked. It's going to be crazy. You can't take this stuff. Have you in the process of teaching anybody?

Had anybody jump out of window or run around naked? Not yet, thankfully. Yes. And I know exactly what you're talking about because that is how I grew up. I went to school every single day and was like, drugs are bad. I watched the video of people jumping out the three-story window. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. why would people take this?

Like they're going to lose all their mind. And so I do think it's kind of funny. And I do also think that that's why microdosing can be such a powerful tool. Because for people who are really nervous or apprehensive because they think that they might completely lose their soul, their senses, their mind jump out of window, I feel like that microdosing can be used as a person. preparation tool to get to a macrodose journey or it can be just used on its own. So I feel like when I do talk to people and that's the concern that they bring up and I'm like, well,

microdosing is an excellent way to reap the benefits and get exposure to these medicines without putting yourself in an altered state of consciousness because we're taking such low doses that it's considered subperceptual. We're not having hallucinogenic side effects, you know, no auditory, no visual hallucinations, nothing like that. It's just like you got a really excellent night of sleep and you woke up with a lot of great energy and it's the best version of you. And so that's kind of how I position it to people who have that apprehension. That's really well done. You should continue to do that. One technique that I've been using when I talk to people who may be apprehensive is that I bring up this same term that you did.

And that's altered states of consciousness. And if you think about it, we're in altered states of consciousness all day. Sometimes if you're reading a book, you're in an altered state of consciousness. If you're in an engaging conversation, you're in an altered state of consciousness. If you are meditating, you're in an altered state of consciousness. So when you take mushrooms, it's just a shift. It's not this whole other reality, although at a high enough dose, it probably could be. But on a microdose, you are just shifting.

It's a slight shift into this colorful world of love where you feel embraced. And sometimes a good barometer of someone who should take mushrooms is the person who is adamantly never wanting to take mushrooms. That person probably needs them more than anybody. What do you think? I would 100% agree because, George, I was that person. I was. I was the person who was never going to do mushrooms. You were never going to catch me doing LSD. Nothing like that. Because I was like, why would I do that? I'm going to end up with holes in my brain or something else. And I value my brain. It's part of what I think makes me me. So I think that that's a very valid point and that a lot of people still share that perspective.

But part of that is what we have been indoctrinated to believe about psychedelics, which is why I'm so happy that we're in this psychedelic renaissance for lack of a better term. Because it allows people who didn't understand the value or understand how plant medicine could be beneficial. It allows us to open our minds and experience a new perspective. But I also believe that as these are reframed, as psychedelics move away from the party drug mentality, and they're more reframed as plant medicine, I think more people will gravitate towards them than a pharmaceutical model because it is more natural. And without all the extra really scary side effects, not to say that there's no side effects for psychedelics because there is. And there is a small degree of risk for some people. But looking at psychedelics or plant medicine versus pharmaceuticals, you have a much lower chance of long-term complications and side effects with psychedelics.

So like I said, I think is that perception changes to being more of a medicine as opposed to a party drug, I think that that will shift and we'll see more and more people seeking them out. Yeah, one of my favorite parts about mushrooms is the way it makes me think about relationships and not just with my wife or my daughter, but my relationships with myself to the world around me, like how I interact in the world and how I see other people, even if they're a stranger or even if they're a friend that I kind of know, it has really helped deepen my connection and my want to understand what other people are going through. Have you found that to be the case with you as well?

I have 100% found that. And sometimes that's a little bit of a drawback for me with psychedelics, only because I am already an empath. So I already really deeply sense and feel of people's feelings and emotions. And so when I went into my mushroom journey, I am now even more of an empath. And so sometimes it's a little bit hard for me to turn that off. Even at my own detriment, I might be very worried about something that's going on with someone else.

And I sometimes can't let that go. So that's kind of an intention that I'll be working on with my next macro journey is learning how to set good boundaries for myself so that I'm not running on an empty tank. but trying to fill everyone else's cup, you know. But I do absolutely believe that. I feel like since I have started to have this relationship with mushrooms, my relationships with everyone around me has strengthened and improved. I feel such a deeper level of love and respect for my husband,

for my daughter, my mother, my father, my brother, everybody. but it also makes me a lot more curious about everything in the world, everyone in the world, and really wanting to be able to connect with them on a human level. So I would 100% agree that it impacts your relationships. And for me, it's definitely made those relationships stronger and better. That's so awesome to hear. You know, I was speaking with another friend of, of mine, Tess Bresensky, and she's out of Michigan, and she has started up her own company,

and her and I were talking about relationships and mushrooms, and she had started doing something there that I think I'm trying to get other people to do. So I'm going to throw out this idea, and I would love to hear your opinion on it. And the idea is that in her integration class, when she's teaching people how to microdose and she's teaching people about mushrooms, she's begun starting this process of teaching people how to grow mushrooms, because the process and growing mushrooms is from inoculation to the grain, from grain to the hyphae, from hyphae to the fruit. And in that time, there's a lot of things that can happen.

When you inoculate the mushrooms, there's a potential for contamination. And it happens a lot. And it's a great way for us as people to see how we can be contaminated. Just in the air, maybe we're not in a clean space or maybe something came in over here. But it's a really great way when you observe the way the mushroom grows. from vegetative state to fruit. And it kind of represents symbolically our journey on a trip from ingesting the mushroom to having this insight,

which is kind of the fruit. Have you ever thought about maybe implementing that in one of the classes that you do? So I haven't personally thought about doing that, but clinical cognitive, we do have a guest speaker that talks about mushroom cultivation. And I think that that's such an interesting way to look at it. I'm in love with that idea and that perspective.

So now it's something I'll probably talk about integrating more because I'll be honest. I do not have a green thumb at all. Like I killed a cactus, George, a cactus. My husband bought me this cactus and stuck it in the windowsill and forgot about it. And then like three years later, I'm like, oh, whoops about that cactus? So I don't have a green thumb. but I have just fallen so in love with mushrooms that I have also been trying to cultivate my own at home. And I did successfully grow some golden teachers.

However, now I'm like struggling a little bit in that process. But I took a lot of joy in it and it might sound kind of silly, but I feel like it's almost like a child in the that I've like inoculated this bag and now I'm just kind of watching and waiting for the magic to happen. And then when I finally got to pick the fruit, I was like, look at what I did. Like, look at what I did. This is all part of me making my own medicine so I can heal myself. And it was really empowering. So I feel like that's a really valuable tool to include. Yeah, I think so. And it's what a great, you know, there's that old saying that if you give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. But if you teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime.

And I think that that process is sort of the embodiment of that particular word or that particular little limerick right there. And it's a beautiful thing. I'm really excited to see people moving forward. And additionally, on the top of there, on the idea of therapy, when a person feels that they solve their own. problem, whether it's growing your own mushrooms or coming to your own realization with some help. I think that that is what gives people the courage to move forward and not only out of therapy, but into the world of optimization. And I think that that's where we're going.

I think that we start with therapy and we start healing ourselves. And then from there, we can use the mushrooms or the medicine for optimization. And we can really become the very best that we could possibly be. you think about moving from healing to optimization? I think that the mushrooms will do exactly that. And I feel like that's a little bit of what my journey has been like with mushrooms, because I did start out using them more for healing, you know, healing from all of that stress, anxiety, trauma from working through, you know, addiction with somebody for years

and years and years, stress, anxiety and trauma from a workplace, you know, toxic workplace, all of these issues I started out with. And I was really looking for something to help me work through those issues and to heal myself because I had spent years upon years upon years on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications with no relief or remission. I was just stuck in this daily habit of, oh, I've got to take my pills. So I don't feel worse. I don't feel like a great person, but I feel okay. And so the mushrooms really helped me to heal and work through a lot of that trauma.

And now I feel like that what I use them for is really optimizing myself. Now, that's not to say I don't still use them for healing because we always are going to have trauma. We're always going to have stress. we're always going to have things that compound on us. So I do feel like they will always be a little bit on that healing front. But for now, I feel like most of my major issues I have healed from with the help of mushrooms. So now I'm about just being that best version of me and focusing on the things that I love. And the mushrooms really helped me do that. It's really well said. I want to talk a little bit more about the

process as a facilitator. And this may not be something that's happening now, but as I put on my prediction hat and I think about what could be happening in the future, and we see Oregon as like this hotbed, this place where things are beginning to happen. You know, I'm hopeful that we, whether it's an Oregon or Hawaii or the United States or the world, I'm hopeful that we begin to return to the idea of rights of passage. You know, when we think about a young girl's kinsignera or a bar mitzvah or any of these particular rights of passage from childhood into adulthood, you know, we have graduation for kids. I'm curious that in the world of facilitators, do you see a time when the classes will be graduating and there'll be like a right of passage,

not necessarily children, but I mean in the world of psychedelics? Because it seems that you and I, everyone that have taken mushrooms, have kind of had our own rights of passage. But maybe in the future there will be like a graduation process, like a bar mitzvah, or something in the culture like that. What do you think? You know, I do, I hope for that day. And I do think that we'll get there eventually. I don't know that we'll see it in the next couple of years.

But I feel like, you know, as that perception of psychedelics and, you know, mushrooms shifts, I do think it'll be more of a right of passage. And if we look back at an indigenous use, they are used sometimes as rights of passage. And so I do think that we might start to see that a little bit further down the road. But I think that it's a really powerful tool, because we do have these different rights of passage that we go through in our lives. But I think traditionally it's been more focused on, oh, now you've gotten to this next stage. So great job. You're 16. You need to figure out what you want to do with your life. Oh, you're 18. Yay, you've hit this huge milestone. But let me kick you out of the nest. You need to go to college.

You need to get a job. You need to be part of society and be supporting, you know, part of society yourself. But I don't feel like in those rights of passage, we really take the time to celebrate the journey. that it took you to get there and celebrate the hard times but also the good times. So I do feel like there is a lot of room to improve those rights of passage and talk about, you know, more from a mental health perspective or a human perspective. Like, yes, we do need to live and work and contribute. But how are we protecting ourselves? How are we protecting our happy?

how are we protecting our spirituality? How are we coping with these things that life throws at us all the time? And I don't know that there's many rights of passage that help us with coping skills and mechanisms. So I do think that we'll get there and I think it's necessary and vital to get there sooner rather than later. Yeah, that's interesting. You brought up a lot of points there that are fascinating to me. And one of which is when you begin, using, whether it's micro dosing or maybe you have some macro doses. I really think it fundamentally shifts the way you see yourself. And when I think about that, it makes me think like, wow, I have this new perspective on who I am. I can kind of see myself as the observer, almost in a third person

point of view. And it really changes your outlook on your relationships, on your life, on the way you see yourself, on the way you see yourself fitting into the world. And it almost seems to me, that without having that perspective, you're like in a prolonged adolescence. And it seems to me that if we did have some sort of graduation, it's almost like you're getting to use the full capabilities of your mind, or you're at least hip to them, you're at least understanding of this new perspective.

And when you have that new perspective, then you can make changes, whether it's with addiction, relationships. But it does seem to me that mushrooms are giving people a new perspective. What do you think that that is, first off, is that something that I think I know the answer to this, but is it something that you have found? And do you think that it would be profound if we could get the majority of people to have

this new perspective, would that heal a lot of the problems that we have in the world right now? I absolutely think that it would heal a lot of the problems. At the risk of sounding a little bit like Timothy Larry, I do think that the world would be a much better place if the majority of the population did mushrooms at least one time, as long as it was safe for them, that they're not contraindicated in some, you know, sort of way, like if they have a heart condition, obviously then utilizing mushrooms could be dangerous for them. But, you know, like I said, at the risk of sounding a little over the top, I do think that wide use of psychedelics would make our society so much better because I grew up in a very rigid,

closed-minded system and had a very rigid thought process. And now that I have learned more about psychedelics and experienced them myself, I have a whole new perspective on the world. And so the people that are running our world and making decisions for our world, I feel like, need those different perspectives also, if they're going to think outside the box and really help lead the human race, why are we not looking at all these different perspectives? Why are we not using mushrooms to clean up our planet, to clean up oil spills, like Chernobyl, all these things? So I think that our whole world needs a perspective shift, but I do believe that that's happening. Now we're starting to see it more with like bipartisan support in Congress for psychedelic bills and things like that.

So I do think that we're moving towards a more open-minded society. But I still think that there's work to be done. We could still do so much better. And I think that psychedelics have the power to help us reach, you know, the best versions of ourselves, the best versions of society. and to really be used as a problem-solving tool moving forward. You know, consult the mushroom if you have a problem. They're wise. And they can help us ferret out the solution.

I love it. You know what? Some people talk about a enhanced dynamic relationship with spirituality after taking mushrooms. And I'm wondering in the facilitator course, what is it that you got? Do you guys incorporate spirituality? And what is your relationship to spirituality and what is the relationship to spirituality in the facilitator's course? We do talk a lot about spirituality and what that looks like because it's very different and individualized for each person. You know, some people very much believe in religion.

Some people just believe in a higher power. So I think spirituality, like I said, is deeply individual and deeply personal. But that is something that we teach about because it is a very common experience to feel more spiritual or more mystical after experiencing mushrooms. So we do focus a lot on spirituality and talk to them and teach them about that so that they can share it with their clients during integration sessions. On some level, this is probably inevitable. I don't want it to be. But, you know, in the 60s, we saw people like Jonestown or like a Manson family. And I don't know how true psychedelics played a role in these people, getting people to do things.

But do you see or are there people in Oregon who are worried about this particular type of misuse of psychedelics and like cult activity? Oh, 100%. That is always going to be a fear is misuse. But I also feel like working in a more regulated space will help prevent, maybe not prevent, but will help alleviate some of that stress for people because working in a regulated model, like under facilitator licensing for Measure 109, there are a lot of safeguards that are built in to those rules to protect the clients, including like mandatory reporting of misconduct. for facilitators. So there is a lot of client protection that was built into these rules because

they recognize the vulnerability and how psychedelics put you into a suggest, let me say, can put you into a suggestible state. And I know that that has been a hot topic right now is abuse, you know, during psychedelic journeys because people are in altered states of consciousness and extremely vulnerable. But that is ultimately what the regulated model is made to help protect from. So I think that that helps reduce the risk a lot. That's a great point. And I would add to that point, the world that we live in, especially like in the

Western world, is run on drugs. Like I'm drinking coffee right now. This is like a giant cup of caffeine. And if you go to any like truck yard. or any office building, there's probably a coffee machine there. And everybody has a coffee break. And everybody's using these drugs to be stimulated to get through their day. And I'm not even talking about the pharmaceuticals people have to use to get through their day

because they don't feel good about themselves. So in my mind, I imagine a world where instead of a coffee break, there's like a psilocybin break, a microdose break. I'm wondering if you put on your imaginative hat, can you think of any, like, abstract or imaginary use? in the future what psychedelics could be used for. Oh, geez. I feel like there is, gosh, if I put on my imaginary, imaginative thinking cap, I feel like

there are so many things that psychedelics could be used for. You know, we do, I'm also drinking up a cup of coffee while we're sitting here. But I think that we could virtually integrate it into almost everything. you feel like you're stuck. Like, I know they did this in the 60s with LSD. If you have a problem that you have been stuck on that you're trying to solve and it's been more than three months and you are just stuck, why don't you come in, do a psychedelic journey and let's find the solution.

So I think it'll be used really widely for problem solving in different fields. I feel like it'll be a huge, you know, mental health, which, is how we're focusing on it in Oregon is more the mental health perspective. But I feel like we'll see it being used a lot for creativity. What I honestly hope to see, and I know that they are doing research with this, but really what I hope to see is us being able to use psychedelics more to prevent or possibly reverse neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's and dementia. like that, I can tell you, George, that is my biggest fear. I mentioned earlier, my brain is who I am.

And the thought of losing that function is terrifying to me. So the idea of neuroplasticity and how it's enhanced by psychedelics, I feel like, is a huge, like, spear into our future with psychedelics is really how do we unlock the potential for the, and how do we help some of these big plaguing conditions? Yeah, I'm glad you said that. There's been some really interesting articles that you probably checked out. One was an article in Spanner Magazine where there was a gentleman whose father had begun to get dementia to the point where he couldn't really communicate anymore,

and he was almost bedridden. And the gentleman was the guy's son, and he had talked to some doctors, and the doctor was like, look, you know, he's got a few more months. he's going to have to go to a home because you can be able to take care of them. And it was the beginning of the story was really heart-wrenching. And the son had talked about how he played guitar with his dad.

And they did all these things together. And he just slowly watched him disappear. And so he had took it upon himself to begin micro-dosing with his dad. And within a few months, he came home one day. And he heard the sound of the guitar playing. And he's like, what in the world is that? And he goes in the room and his dad's playing guitar. He's like, dad, what are you doing?

and he's like, I just realized I hadn't played guitar in a long time, and I felt like playing. I'm not saying it's a panacea. And the articles in Spanner magazine, I think it's Cody Sparks Magazine, so everybody should go check it out. That's one article about it. There are some other interesting articles that are being done by DARPA, and they are using psychedelics and people who are anesthetized, and they're actually seeing the new neural connections being made in people that are in catatonic. state. So I think that there's a lot of promise for exactly what you said. And I do think that that's one of the biggest problems we face in healthcare right now is that we have this aging demographic

who are on the cusp of losing some of their cognitive abilities. And I do think that psychedelics are going to play a huge role in that. So I'm glad that you brought that up because I do think that it's a huge part of us as a human population that we're going through right now. But So Alicia, I'm having an absolute blast talking to you. And one thing I really love about having organic discussions is that I never know where they're going to go. And we can have some frameworks and stuff like that. But I'm so pleasantly surprised all the time about getting into the mind of someone who I thought

was interesting and finding out there a million times more interesting. So I'm so thankful that you got to speak to me today. But before I could let you go, would you be so kind as to tell me, what you got coming up, where people can find you and what you're excited about. Sure, definitely. I've really enjoyed our conversation together as well. And there's a lot of different things that I'm working on. So one of the things I'm working on right now actually is a psilocybin business workshop.

And it is through clinical cognitive facilitator training. So it will actually discuss like Measure 109, the different license. sensing under it, like where you can go to work as a facilitator and how you set up a facilitator business. So I'm working on that, but I'm also working on a microdosing masterclass for clinical cognitive. So, you know, if you are not connected with me on LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn as Salisha Abbas. I'm on Instagram as at Swank Aesthetics. And aesthetics is spelled AE, instead of just the traditional E. But I usually post more on LinkedIn now that I do anywhere else because it's a lot more

psychedelic friendly than Facebook or Instagram is. So find me on Instagram. Like I love connecting with people. I love talking everything, aesthetics and psychedelics. And I've just really enjoyed connecting with you. And thank you for reaching out to me. and inviting me to be on your podcast. Yeah, I'm excited for you.

I'm excited for you and the team and everybody in Oregon because I think that you're setting the standard for what can be. And if I can ever be of any help or anything at all, please feel free to reach out. And I always tell people that my next evolution of the podcast is going to be having some panels together. So you're on my short list. So be ready.

I'm going to be calling on you and some other people in Oregon. So I thank you for your time. And that's all we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. Aloha, everybody.