TrueLife - Serena Wu - Radicle, Author, & Lover of Life’s Mysteries

Episode Date: March 11, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Social Media:Website: www.radiclelaw.comInstagram: @serena.pens @radiclelawLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/serena-d-wuSerena Wu is a founding partner of Radicle Law LLP, a boutique law firm that provides legal and business solutions to diverse clients who are changemakers in their industries. She is passionate about therapeutic potentials of psychedelics and social entrepreneurship. As an attorney, she is focused on providing legal solutions to those in emerging industries such as psychedelics, cryptocurrency and beyond. Prior to co-founding Radicle Law, she began her career as a litigator at Davis Polk & Wardwell LLP and was a former founding partner of Plant Medicine Law Group. She graduated from Harvard Law School and is licensed in California and New York. Outside of her legal work, Serena is working on her debut novel, Dandelion Odyssey: Wyra’s Search for the Rainbow Pearls (working title). Inspired by her own personal experiences with psychedelics, the novel chronicles Wyra’s path to seek the Rainbow Pearls through her psychedelic journeys to heal from her trauma. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen,

Welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope you're excited. I know that I'm excited today. We have an incredible guest for you today. Ms. Serena Wu, who after graduating from Harvard Law School, she's been making quite a name for herself as a business adhering, an author, an entrepreneur, a speaker, as well as a founding partner of her own law firm, Radical Law,

which is a social impact law firm, offering innovative legal solutions to shift paradigms. I think it's important to note that she's also an advisor to reason for hope. She's founded Woman in Psychedelics and the Asian Psychedelic Society. Serena Wu, I'm so excited to talk about your new book about what inspires you, and I'm so excited to have you here today. Thanks for being here. Did I leave anything out in that introduction?

No, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction, and thank you so much for inviting me. The pleasure is all mine, and I'm really thankful that you're here today. You know, I speak to a lot of different authors about what inspires them and what they want people to get out of their book. And I'm excited to hear about all those things. But I guess first off, have you always wanted to write a book? Is that something you've always wanted to do?

Or how did this idea of a book even get started? What we met because of the Sisters and Psychedelics author panel, which was wonderful. And in that panel, we talked about how people don't really write books for the sake of, like there's usually a reason to them wanting to write a book, right? And for me, I didn't always want to write a book. I think actually for many, many years, I've had this idea, but I actually didn't want to write it because it was, it felt like it was really hard. It's like doing a book report, but it's like 200 pages instead of two pages or 20 pages, right?

It seemed really hard. And I didn't even know what to start. And I'm a bit of a procrastinator sometimes. So I'll have great ideas. is, but then sometimes it doesn't, I don't execute and I don't follow through. But what happened was that last year I got this vision and this vision basically asked me, am I going to write this book or not? It was giving me a choice.

I just may have to make a decision. That's the first step. And whatever happens happens, but it was a choice of mine. And since I've been thinking about wanting to write this book for some time now, I thought, why not? You know, it's been percolating for a few years, so might as well just write it. Yeah. Is that, do you think that's a pattern in how you operate is that you come to this conclusion and you have a choice that's given, like you've started a lot of things and you've begun

a lot of things in your life? Is it the same pattern of initiation that gets the ball rolling, whether it's sisters and psychedelics, going to law school or writing a book? Is there like some similar threads that run through there? I think so. I think usually I take some time to make a decision. I think it's maybe with some people too, but sometimes it's like the fear that stops me from making the decision right away because I'm concerned what if this is the wrong decision? What if I don't want to do it? But then I can always pivot if I don't like what I'm doing or if I don't feel like it's true to me. And I just kind of like let things simmer sometimes for a little bit too long, like with the book. And then it's just like, you know, push comes to shove. What am I going to do? Right? So there has been this theme of just taking time to figure out whether this is the right

decision or not and then going for it. But I think a lot of it is kind of like my own self-talk. It's my own self-doubt. It's my own fear about like, oh, what if this? What if I'm not good enough to write a book? What if I'm not an author? What if nobody likes my book and all these things? So I have to go through all of that in my head before I come to the conclusion that I want to write this book.

And to me, the conclusion is that even if I write this book and nobody reads it, then it's still okay because I'm writing this book for myself and I'm writing this book for my mom. So even if she doesn't read it because she doesn't read English, I think just the fact that I finished it will be more than enough for me. Yeah. And I think just the way you laid that out creates an awesome foundation to inspire people to read it. So the book, and correct me if I had this wrong, it's called Dandelion Odyssey. Wira's Search for the Rainbow Pearls. Is that accurate? Yes. That's the working title right now in my chain. It's about a story about Wira, how she goes in her journey to find these rainbow pearls to lift an ancestral curse.

It's a novel exploration of, in novel form and fiction form of what happens with somebody goes through their healing journey and having to work through ancestral trauma, but also like trauma in the present life. Just kind of like going through that person's mindset. And then what interlays, what helps with all of that in that journey is the psychedelic experiences and how that gets integrated into that person's psyche. Or that's my goal anyway. Yeah, is it autobiographical in nature?

Part of it is inspired by some of the experiences I've had, but I want to make it, you know, like as as it go through multiple drafts, I'm going to hone in on the story more and more. And the message I want to convey is that one, we're all whole to begin with. and it's from that wholeness that we are loved. And it's really coming back to self-love. Like, that's the message I want to convey. So it's kind of like I'm writing this book in a way to remind myself of my own self-love, of my own wholeness. And I hope, you know, if it does that, if it does resonate with other people, that's wonderful.

But again, it's like, it's a very, it's a project that I can, if I have this product, I can always go back to reread this story and then be reminded again of like what it means to be whole and and what it means to be reminded of my own wholeness. And because that's the entire story. It's like going, as she's going through to find these rainbow pearls, she's going through and exploring through her pain and suffering, but also like the idea that the pain and suffering is created through her own mind. And because she's the one who created the pain and suffering, she can also help transform that as well. I was going to ask, what does it mean to be reminded of wholeness? But I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there when you talk about, you know,

if you create the pain, then you are also the individual who can relieve the pain. And I'm curious, just a few moments ago, you would, you kind of spoken about, I don't think you used this word intergenerational trauma, but you alluded to it. Is there, is there, when I say the word generational trauma, like, what do you think about? So this is actually a new, I mean, the phrase has been thrown around. I've been, you know, thrown around me for some time now. But I think in the last two years specifically, I've come to even, it's like come to my attention in very intimate ways where people are saying to me like, oh, there are things that gets passed down to you that isn't even of my current life. time, but it's passed down in other ways.

And I think for me, you know, it's all going to sound woo-goo and hokey-pokey to a lot of people and I totally understand that, but I wouldn't even be talking about it unless I had a real intimate more understanding of it. And ancestral trauma is just this idea that trauma from the past, like whether it's from your grandparents, great-grandparents or beyond, sometimes whatever was energetically trapped can get passed down to you. And I'm using these words very colloquially, like, energetically trapped. That's just how I'm describing it because I really don't have really good words to describe it.

So forgive me if like I'm not saying something according to what people understand or they have better vocabulary or phrases than I do. But it's just like, this is just how I'm coming to understand it for myself. But, you know, even like in study epigenetics, right, there's a study I read a long time ago. that was talking about Holocaust survivors and how they were more, their descendants actually have a higher chance of getting like stomach ulcers and all these issues with that. And then what they've realized is that certain problems, like, you know, stomach ulcers and the predisposition to getting that, it was coming down, it was being passed down from an epigenetic line. And again, apologies if I'm like withering the words, inscribe it, but this is what I remember from this. study and the idea was like if their grandparents or somebody in their family was in the concentration camps, that trauma, like it gets remembered and then it gets passed down through

the generations. So the one that I'm talking about is more of, I don't know if it's tied to any particular event in history in my family, but it's like I felt it and I've experienced it. And I've come to understand according to my narrative, but again, it's like each person is very different. Because everybody's family is different. Everybody's family, the history, the lineage is different. Even somebody in China, you know, they might have a different, they're definitely going to have a different lineage than me, even though we're from the same country. Yeah. There's a great book called Man Search for Meaning written by Victor Frankel.

And he was in, right? What a great way to begin to understand the idea of epigenetics or generational trauma or ancestral trauma. And I don't think that you should ever apologize for using the wrong words because I think that these are new words and new ideas that are being brought. And maybe they're not really new, but they're new to me. And they seem to be finding their way through the world of consciousness where people are beginning to understand them. And I think it's an exciting time because bringing up these ideas really gives people an insight into how they move their way through the world, how their parents move through the world, how their relationships are. And I'm excited for your book because I think it's a great exploration of this. And it's inspiring and it's fun and it can give people new ways to look at their life.

And it's a great concept for people to be thinking about. And I hope that it can't help people get through different kinds of. traumas and stuff. I guess something else I would I would want to ask you is you know when I read a lot of mythology or I read a lot of I'm a big sci-fi guy and it seems to me there's this recipe of Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey where people get the call and they find a threshold guardian and there's other there's other methods that people follow is there a certain recipe that that you're using in your book as to base things on? That is the recipe that I think,

at least in my book program, that's what we're using to create the story because the idea is when we tell stories, there is a structure to it. And that becomes the inherent structure in a lot of stories, right? Whether it's the hero's journey or the heroine's journey, and they're slightly different. So that is the structure I follow.

But again, with structure, you can still have other manifestations and explorations in the book to discover what comes up or not, depending on the character development and then the plots and plot twists and things like that. But the structure ultimately becomes pretty much the same. Do you see the book as a structure or more as a container? Or are those two things synonymous? That's a good question. I see telling the story in a structure way.

But because that's important because it has to move through pace to get people's attention so that they want to continue reading the story. The structure helps with the pacing, it helps with the character development, the plot twist. So it's like not all over the place. It makes sense. Like there is causal links between one event and another. But in terms of it being a container, that's an interesting thought. I've never thought of it being a container other than a book is in and of itself, right?

Yeah, yeah. And that story is in of itself. So in a way, that can be a container, but I haven't really given it much thought. Is there one cool thing that I really like about reading books is the ability to see the subject, the object, and then be the observer of that. And in really good books, you can kind of put yourself in all of those different positions. And I'm curious, when you're writing, do you often find yourself being the subject, the object, and the observer? I think I write a lot from the observer's perspective. And I'm trying not to. I definitely

need to do more of the other being in the shoes of the subject and the object as well. But I think at least my first draft, I was really writing it from an observer's perspective. Just lay out all the stuff I needed to lay out. And then now I'm in the process of refining the structure so that I can develop the characters more and the plot more in a way that paces well. Yeah, I'm looking forward to. I love reading and I love learning and I love it when the author allows me to have like a toured love affair or an angry fight or something like that. You know, is there, can I expect something that from the Dandelion Odyssey?

Am I going to like fall in love or am I going to get in a fight or they're going to be both of them? They're going to be the same person. What's going to go? What's going to happen in there? I don't know. I mean, because I thought there will be like, you know, everybody talks about conflict and conflict is essential to any story. a lot of the conflict that I was drawing up, at least in the first trap, I didn't feel like I did a good job of, you know, creating those emotions where you're like, you know, completely in love with somebody and you're choosing sides and then like people are fighting against each other and you're like, you're rooting for one side versus another. I don't think I did a good job of that. So I definitely need to kind of hone in on the conflict more, whether it's internal conflict or external conflict.

And I think there's going to be more internal conflict than not. But I'm hoping that some of the, there is like one character that I'm kind of excited to develop. And he's called the Umbra. So we will see, I want to see like, because sometimes like with writing, it's also about discovery. I kind of knew this character, but then I kind of didn't know him either. So now I'm hoping that I will spend a little bit more time thinking through his roles. and he's going to appear in more places than I thought than I originally thought. So he might be an interesting character to follow because he is essentially going to be like the,

you have the protagonist and then I think is it the villain? Yeah. Yeah. Have you found that as you're writing, as you're writing out these characters, do you find that these characters are often people in your life that have influenced you? or are they just different versions of you? That's a good question. I mean,

because a lot of times what I've read from really great writers is that you write what you know, right? Yeah, totally. And I found that it's easier to at least start creating characters based on people I know and getting their little particular personalities and characteristics in place. And then from there, it's a lot easier to imagine it to be like someone very different, right?

And I think that's been happening with some of these characters is that I take inspiration from the people I know, like particular traits about them that really stands out. And then I build from there and see who they can become. And a lot of the, I don't have a lot of main characters or like strong characters in my book. There's only like a few. So some of the characters, I take those particular characteristics, like they're just going to be minor characters, but I'm trying to make that one particular characteristic stand out.

But again, it's like, because I think it's like, we have to think about the motivation of each character as of the individual person. And when I think more and more about that, and I think about their backstories and whatnot, then that's where the imagination and creativity comes in. And it's like, oh, they can do this, it can do that. And then that becomes their thing.

And it becomes like a completely different character. Yeah, I'm wondering, does that, like, bleed into, like, your daily life as a professional? A moment ago, you had just spoken about, you know, building a character or writing about a character and then thinking in your mind, I wonder what this character can become. Do you find yourself on a professional level, like, looking at clients or looking at people and being like, I wonder what this person can become? They kind of like bleed together? They do sometimes, especially because with radical law, we work with vision-driven entrepreneurs. We want to make the difference in the world and create some kind of positive impact. And we work with a lot of startups.

So we do the corporate work, whether it's in formation or they've already formed and they need help with fundraising, or they need help with general contract work, or there's a merger and acquisition. So when we, especially when we meet founders in the very early stages, we don't know what they're going to become. And we want them to succeed. Yeah. But at the same time, it's just like, you know, there's a lot that needs to kind of align at the right time, the right place with the right people. And there's a lot of effort to building a business that's required. And we don't know.

It's like maybe it was trending at one moment and they might become a big hot thing, a big hot company down the line, or they might just putter along and just be like a small business or they might not do well. Like you just never really know, but it's interesting to start working with founders and entrepreneurs grow their business because their business too can grow. Like it might start as one thing, but then it might change down the line. Yeah, in some ways it's like, you know, we're all living our own book. Like we're the main character in our own story. And if we just spent as much time developing ourselves or sometimes I look at it like we're all the characters and we're trying to get the attention of the author to write us a bigger part. And in a weird way, if you do that, you can begin to see yourself from all these different perspectives. And sometimes it helps open up doors or allows you to jump through a window.

or whatever it is in your life that opens up for you. As we're talking a little bit about law, first off, radical law is like the greatest name ever. Like I love the logo. I love the name. How did that come about? Do you just, so you graduate law school and you're like, you know what, I'm going to start my own thing. I'm making my new life for myself. How did this idea of starting your own firm come about?

So I've been working in big law, what we call big law. What is that for people that may not know? So big law is basically the best, best of the best type of law firms in the nation. So they're at the top tier law firms. And I was working there for four years about four years as a litigation associate. But I knew I didn't want to be there forever. I knew it wasn't exactly the right place for me because it just didn't fit into the culture as well. And I wanted to leave.

And again, it was another trip to Costa Rica that reaffirm the decision to leave and I need to do something different. But it took some time, right? It's like I knew this place wasn't for me, but it took some time for me to come to that realization and be able to decide to make a change. I found another law firm, but it didn't work out for me. And then I ended up leaving for another year. And then last year, I just took the time to figure out for myself what I wanted to do and think through what I wanted to do and work on some personal health issues. And before I took the year off, I was at Lundy Farms at a gathering. There was this one person, his name was Kay.

He talked about the radical of a seed. It's the first root of a seed And we were talking about seeds and planting and Sewing seeds, right? Just this metaphor When I was trying to think about a name I was like, okay, maybe I started a new law firm And I was thinking about a name

For some reason, I got drawn to like plants And then I saw that I was looking at a picture of like a plant Like there's seeds and then the roots and every The roots and then also the stem and the leaves and everything And I was like looking at different parts and I saw the word radical. And I was like, wait, that sounds familiar. And it reminded me to, it reminded me of what Kay said, which is like, it's the first,

it's the first root of a seed. And the idea was that kind of like with all the startups we're working with and ourselves, like we're planting seeds. And once one root takes, once a root grows in the ground, there will be other roots that sprout. And it's really what grounds you into the soil. And so it's just this metaphor of like that's what we're trying to do with law, with our firm and then also with the entrepreneurs we want to work with. It's so fitting, especially when we begin talking about psychedelics. Like it seems to me that, you know, we've recently saw what happened with like cannabis laws and how in the beginning like banks didn't want to like put into.

any of that money in the banks. And so, you know, people that had, people that had facilities, had armored cars. And, like, it just seemed like the Wild West when cannabis first came out. And now, all of a sudden, we're seeing Colorado and Oregon pass these bills where there's this new thing emerging. And it's, and it has one foot in the medical industry and another foot in the therapy industry and another foot in the consumer industry. And it's, it's radical in so many ways because it's something new that's starting. and it's different. And here you are at the forefront of beginning to write laws that could fundamentally

change the way the world sees these substances or gets to redefine them. Can you talk a little bit about what that's like to be at the forefront of this new thing happening and being in law and seeing these things beginning to emerge? Yeah. And since we're starting to talk about law, I have to give the disclaimer. Yes, yes, please. One thing I say with respect to law is like it's legal. advice. It's all for information, educational purposes. And this is not in any way creating any

attorney-client relationships with any of the audience members. I'm just giving my thoughts and information. I mean, it's really exciting to be in the forefront of this space to see how it all grows and whatnot. And just to be clear, like, there are a lot of people working on legislative advocacy and writing bills in states to decriminalize to deprioritize to actually. creating some kind of legalized regulatory system or structure, like with Oregon and Colorado will do the same to allow access to whether it's psilocybin or a variety of different psychedelics or like I think it's silozybin and some other type of plant medicine. So it depends on the state. It's really exciting and it's also really exciting to see that process of legislative change.

recently reason for hope i didn't participate or help with this initiative but the executive director he posted on lincoln that they you know they introduced the therapies um breakthrough therapies act in congress which is exciting and then um you know hawaii i think is also doing there's some something's happening there um california has a bill uh that got introduced but we're so we're waiting to see and things are moving along in Colorado. And Oregon has hit some hiccups in terms of its rollout, but it's been two years they've been thinking through the regulations. And people are seeing that rollout and how some of the challenges they're facing.

I mean, it's kind of like growing pains in the beginning, right? But it's really exciting to see all of this. And for me personally, like I feel like I owe a debt to psychedelics. for helping me in my healing journey. I've worked with ketamine and ayahuasca. So it's like that personal relationship to these substance means that not only do I care about this from a policy perspective, but personally, like, I care from a,

there's an intimate relationship I have with some of these medicines. What? So I love the way you said that. And I think they're not only growing pains, but they're like birth pains. You know, and sometimes I get scared when I hear the word birth pangs because sometimes children die in childbirth. Sometimes the mother dies in childbirth. And if you look at what happened in the 50s and 60s, you could say that that was a sort of miscarriage in a way.

Like we had all this promise happening and then all of a sudden it's just everyone's in mourning, you know. And here we are at this second attempt. Maybe it's the second wave of before the peak or maybe it's this new birth that's how. happening. But I do think it's an intimate experience. And one thing that I'm excited about is that a lot of people that are in this space are people that actually have experience within theogens or psychedelics. And it's, it's really refreshing to me to get to see people who are experienced in something beginning to help other people through it. I'm wondering, like, before we continue to talk about that, would you be comfortable sharing maybe some of your psychedelic experiences? Do you have

like a particular do you prefer ketamine over ayahuasco or i mean is there something that you can share about some of your experiences um so i'm not i will again another disclaimer like i'm not advocating or like you know commending that people go do psychedelics uh i think everybody's circumstance is different and absolutely um please check with your doctors practically whoever is Absolutely. Do your own research, make that decision. There are a lot of legal issues and risk with respect to psychedelics. So it's not, I'm not trying to convey that you can do all of this.

But I have work with ketamine with my psychiatrist. And he was the one who introduced me to it. He just said, like, you know, they've been using this for 10 plus years. But it wasn't really talked about it. And it was really news to me when I found out about it five, six years ago. And then I also work with ayahuasca, but I go to Costa, I went to Costa Rica and then I went to Peru to work with people that I know and have come to trust with the medicine there. And the thing is, every substance, psychedelic substance, is very different. Like they don't work in the same way.

They, different molecular structures. different histories, different rituals and practices. Some have indigenous histories and lineage. Some dozen. Some are synthetic and some are not, right? So it's all a gamut. And I think we talk about a lot of times we talk about it as a whole, the word psychedelics or amphiogens.

But it's really like you have to look at each individual one because they're different protocols. There's different research about all of these. substances. They might have different complications and risk and contraindications for each of them. So they're all very different. And I think it's like, you know, I say ketamine for me helped shock me out of my depression. That's the expression I've been using for other to tell the story because it's a dissociative. It helps me at the time when I had the experience. It completely, I felt like my head was floating in space and my body was like on the ground,

but in a good way, it allowed my body to calm down and relax and be kind of dissociated from the mind so I don't have to be, it doesn't have to feel trapped with all the worries and the stresses and the concerns and all the thoughts I was just conjuring up in my mind and just basically gave me body a break. And that break was enough for me to feel like I was coming out of like a dark cloud. Yeah. And that was like, oh, okay, like there's a different way. There's a different perspective. I can look at my life and the life I'm living and myself as well, too. And that really helped accelerate it my healing journey so that I can then start to see things really more clearly from a different perspective. And yeah, and then with ayahuasca, like, there's so much that I can say.

and it's too i feel like sometimes it's a lot because um there's a there's a lot that's written about it and i think like people it's a plant medicine so i see it as a spirit from what i've learned and i'm starting to build a relationship with the spirit but at the same time it's like i also feel like a very novice uh person when it comes to this area because i'm it's like with any new relationship it takes time filled. It's not just like, oh, I met you once. And then we're going to be great for best friends. Like, no. And sometimes she tests me. Sometimes I don't listen to her. And it's like a, you know, it's a relationship. And, and I'm really glad that I got to meet her and to be able to start building this relationship with her because it's helping me. And she's the one who actually

ask me the question, are you going to write this book or not? And again, like, all of this is going to sound somewhat hooky or woo-woo people, but it's like, my relationship with plant medicine now is actually more drawn towards ayahuasca than it does with ketamine, right? And I'm growing spiritually from that relationship, from those experiences as well. And it's fascinating. It's opening me up to a world that goes beyond just what we know in the Western world, right? And again, it's like the one thing, I wish I had more words to describe it, but I really don't sometimes.

The limitation of language, limitation of words makes it really hard to really describe these experiences. And as I'm writing my book, I thought, oh, it's, It won't be too hard and actually pretty hard. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. That's really, I always enjoy hearing that. And I love the way in which you describe building a relationship with the spirit. And I think it's a common thread found, you know, whether you're Ariadne or whether

you're a cat in a chasing a ball of yarn. Like there's always this thread or this. piece of yarn that seems to find itself in this idea that like language fails and it's and why wouldn't it fail like it's it's it's so beautiful and it's one of the best things that humans have but it's also so inadequate like we never define our terms in a conversation and if you're brought up in this culture and i'm brought up in this culture we could use the exact same word but they have two radical different meanings and all of a sudden we're we're just on two opposite sides and we start talking and i i really think that the

language of the spirit is a way in which we can connect to each other and get to know each other better. I'm really thankful for that. And in some ways, I think it's been this separation of spirit that has led people to be depressed. It's the separation of spirit that has led people to conflict. And it's this separation of spirit that has led us to alienation in a weird sort of way. And now, you know, there is this sort of melding back together. And so this brings me to another question. there's maybe no right answer for this question. And I know that none of us have the perfect answers. But how do you think psychedelics are different for men than for women?

Or are they different? I don't know. Me neither. I mean, I feel like it's different person to person. Yeah. Right? So I've heard stories of wonderful experiences, transformative experiences, but I've also read stories where people have either hurt themselves

or they enter into psychosis or something. And from what I see in this study is like those kind of, those unfortunate and dire side effects and consequences, they're actually in the minority, but at the same time we can't dismiss that at all, right? Because there are risks to using these medicine and substances. But as for the difference between men and women, I really don't know. I mean, I do hear research talking about the differences in the brain when it comes to men and women.

So maybe that might create an aspect of difference. But again, it's like, I don't know. Somebody who has to do a study on that. And sometimes I'm not sure is it important to focus on what's different right now versus what actually we share in common? because whether you're a man or a woman, you might be suffering your own version of your own pain, suffering, trauma, negative thoughts, whatever it is. Or you could be in one of the few people

who are just happy and joyful and having a great life, and that's wonderful. But I think it doesn't like suffering, pain and suffering is not divided by gender. You know, it doesn't really matter if your man, your woman, binary, any of any of that. It's your person, you're a human being. So you're going to feel what human beings feel, which is all the emotions that's available to us.

Isn't it interesting that maybe it's pain and suffering that are the one thing that can bring us all together. You know, whether you're black or white or Asian or Mexican or Indian or gay or straight or whatever. whatever you are, the one thing we all have is pain and suffering. And like, regardless of where you live, regardless of how many times your parents got divorced, regardless of what happened to you as a kid or as an adult, the one thing that we could all empathize with is pain and suffering. And we all have it. It's the one thing that kind of brings us together. And, you know, when you look at someone and you see what they're going through, if you just take a minute to realize the person, everybody you see is fighting a battle that you know nothing about.

And so were you. Like it just kind of blows my mind. And I think that that's an underlying phenomenon of psychedelics is that it shows us. It pushes the boundaries away. And it's like, look, you're all suffering a little bit. And that should bring you together because you need each other to get over that. And I guess that was kind of like my go to when I asked you whether if there's a difference between men or women or there's cultural differences in psychedelics. I think that maybe that's one thing that psychedelics does is it just pushes those boundaries of difference away and is like, you're human, you're a person.

And you have these same set of things that other people have. And if you just work on your things, then you can help other people work on their things. Let me ask you this. Have you found that by building a better relationship with the spirit, whether it's through ayahuasca, ketamine, or just a therapy or talking to a friend, have you found that working on. yourself allows you to be a better person and have better relationships with other people? I definitely do, but I want to add like a common thread with people. I don't think it's just pain and suffering. I want to go down even one more level.

Yeah, let's do it. Emotions, right? I think everybody have emotions can, well, actually, unless you're a psychopath, right? For most part, 10% of the people in the world out there is going to feel emotions, whether it's sadness, fear, joy, anger, all of these. Like, those are their shared emotions, and certain emotions are going to lead to, could lead to pain and suffering. But with emotions of joy and have, like, and gratitude and all of that,

that leads to somewhere that's positive, right? And that can also be shared too. So that's why I like to go down one more level. So it's not like we're all bonding over just pain and suffering. And we're just suffering together. but there's actually there can definitely be joy that's experienced and spread and shared amongst a lot of different people, right, across the world. So there's that. And then the question about, what was the last question?

Building a relationship with yourself, makes your relationships with others better. I think it definitely does, like, because I feel like as I work on myself and improving the relationship I have with myself, not only is it changing the dynamics in my family with my friends my community and also the people I work with as an attorney right it's yeah a lot giving me more capacity to empathize with them and there's this like it was kind of like taught to me over and over and over again reminded to me that like some like where is there our fear a sphere of control right our sphere of control is really our thoughts, our actions, our words. And for the longest time, when I had a conflict with my mom, for example, I wanted her to change. I wanted her to do something different. I want her

to say something different. But it got reinforced in me that, like, no, I can't control what she does. And she might never change, right? So all I could do is what can I say? What can I do? What can I think with respect to my relationship with her. And when I start dealing with the things that came up for me and working through those, it got easier. It got easier to relate to my mom. It got easier to de-escalate our conflicts. And by doing all of that, by changing what I do, what I think and what I say, I was then able to change their relationship. And she didn't, she may have responded to it and reacted to in different ways, but I didn't have any control over what she did. But ultimately, by changing the relationship I have with myself and changing the thoughts, the actions, and the

words I have with respect to the relationships I have with other people, it then started to shift those relationships too. And this is what I believe, like, when we want to help change the world, I really believe in doing it one person at a time. I know that sounds very, very, very slow, but it's like, but each person it can magnify, right? That effect, if I can do it for myself, I then basically lead by example and then that can then ripple out throughout from like one person to the family unit, to the friend circle, to the communities, to the business community, like all of that. And then just over time, I just hope those, those effects will just compound on itself. that is that's well said i'm wondering like how what does it look like when you change your attitude

and change your thoughts and a relationship like that is that is that in the midst of a conversation you just pull back and take take a silent pause or is it like a few days of like okay i think what this person is saying is that they're upset about this am i upset about that like how do you go about changing that like it seems like a profound change but i'm wondering how that happens. I mean, there's a lot of different modalities people are talking about, right? And then with psychedelics, too, it can, it can really jumpstart and put you, create like a very clear mirror of what, of you and your life and your circumstances.

And that can force and it has forced me to really look at what I was doing. But in the psychedelic space, truly, though, what I keep saying is that the part after the experience is really what's crucial to creating these sustaining changes and making sure they loss and they loss for your entire life. There are some things that we experience that I've experienced that I know just won't ever go away. and the whole point isn't to make it go away. I used to want to like, oh, I want this to go away. You know, let's tidy it up, put in the trash, throw it out. You know, once that's done, that's done. It's like, it's not the case.

And it's like it goes through layers and layers and layers and spirals and spirals. So for me, for, I've used a lot of different modalities that don't involve psychedelics, you know, whether it's talk therapy, somatic therapy. I use something like it's like a group. It's called Family Constellations. I've tried that. I've tried art therapy. I've tried a lot of different things, right?

Exercise. And some things work for me better than others and some things I can do for long periods of time and keep that habit. But, you know, there's a lot of different strategies that people can employ, some better than others and some more fitting for some people than others, right?

So I'm a huge proponent. to try whatever you think could work for you. But what has work with me is that, you know, I had a really great therapist. And he taught me about how to build that awareness, because awareness has to come first of what is happening. So it used to be that we would go and explore a situation and figure out where the emotions were coming from. But what it comes down to is like, awareness of what thoughts were coming and not feeling attached to any of them, just like, they're going to come and then creating the awareness to what emotions are there. So being able to spot the emotion that was coming up, I used to not be able to spot an emotion.

You would think like, oh, if I'm so smart, I should be able to know what I feel, right? For the longest time, I didn't know. It's not I didn't know. It's more like I didn't want to confront how I felt. I didn't want to accept the fact that I felt at some point. points or I felt scared at some points. I thought I could, you know, I could do it all and I could just push through it and I was ignoring a lot of how I felt. So being able to create awareness with respect to how you are feeling. And then for me, it was like creating that, bringing that

awareness to my body. Like, where do I feel in my body? Because sometimes it's in my stomach. Sometimes it's in my chest. Sometimes, like, it's in my legs. And there's all these different places in my body that's storing these emotions that I've been keeping there. And then the last part is releasing that, like releasing those emotions. If I felt scared and I can feel it in my chest and I can feel that it's tight and there's a blockage then. And then I go through, I don't even know how to, I don't have the words to explain what it is.

Again, another thread in this conversation. But it's just this idea of going to that part of the body and like staying with it and then allowing the body to do what it needs to do. So allowing whatever that emotion is there to kind of come up and let it move through my body. So like I'm it's kind of, I guess it's not some way that's kind of like meditation, but I don't really know that the accurate way of describing it. there because I'm in this state where I'm staying with my body. I'm staying with the thoughts and emotions are coming up and then I'm just breathing. I'm just breathing to allow whatever needs to be released to get released. It doesn't always get released 100% in one try. And actually it doesn't most of the time. It actually takes me multiple times to release things. And I just keep doing that

over and over and over again. And it took me about two, three years to really be able to do that on my own because a lot of it was like, oh, I didn't wanna go there. And it helped to have somebody guide me and kind of hold that space for me and just be like, okay, it's okay to go there.

I feel safe to go there. So it's this overall process of like creating awareness and recognition and being able to spot it in my body and then releasing it. And that's the one method that has helped me tremendously over the past, I don't know, like eight years, you know. In the beginning when I was trying to do this, like I couldn't even build the awareness. I was like, what are you talking about? I guess I'll stay and like, you know, words are coming to me, but they didn't really understand how they applied until I keep doing it over and over and over again.

And that's the thing about psychedelics is that it really isn't for everybody. It really isn't going to be a panacea. Even though I like to describe it's going to open the door for people and it's going to create mirrors, that's where the work starts for each person. Because now it's the way I describe it is like, you know, opens the door. I come in and I see this room, this room being my psyche. And it's a little messy, but with a messy room, either I'm going to go in and organize things and throw things out or whatever, or I don't.

I just closed the door. And at least I saw the room, right? I saw my room. It's like, it can change our perspective. It's like, oh, I know what I do. Like now. But it's really that, you know, like anybody who's cling their room before or cling their garage. Like it takes some time. It might be a few days, a few hours at least, you know,

depending how big the mess is. And it's really that work that I'm really passionate about because, but don't get me wrong, like psychedelics is a very powerful tool. But all the other things you do, a person can do that I've done is really what has created sustaining change, right? Yeah. That's, I like what you said about open. opening the door, but that's a little messy. For me, I'm like, oh, my God, it's like a bomb went off in here. I'm going to shut this door for a minute, you know? But eventually, you're like, okay, I got to start somewhere.

Let me just pick up this shirt, try to create a little pathway through here so I can get in the closet. See there's these skeletons in there. Oh, there's all kinds of them in there. Right. But it's so true. And it's very difficult to confront things, you know, like there's a reason you, you submerged all these feelings.

Like, you didn't want to feel them. You didn't want to be around them. They hurt. They're pain. and it's tough to realize that maybe you are the reason you feel that way. And so, you know, after becoming aware, which I think is, I think if people can become aware, like that might be the greatest gift they could ever give themselves, is just being aware of what's surrounding them, being aware of how they feel.

And then that's the first step. And then pretty soon you'll become aware of these feelings. I never knew I had those feelings or, wow, I had this weird sensation when this one my dad's around. That's weird. I wonder what, what is this awareness all about? It's fascinating. And I do, while I agree, psychedelics aren't for everybody. And it's not a panacea. I do think it opens the door for a lot of people to begin a journey if they're willing to. And I, it's interesting to see these, this holistic approach beginning to melm merge with Western medicine. And I, I'm hopeful. One of things I'm hopeful for, and I'm curious to see if you're hopeful for this, is that it seems that

when we begin to see things happening in Oregon or Colorado, we're beginning to see Western medicine coming in with clinical trials and big pharma kind of coming in and saying stuff, but we're also seeing this Eastern approach come in and saying, you know what, you need integration with this, or you need someone, you need the right set and setting, or it seems to me like we're beginning to see these two things kind of blend together. And I think that that is where real healing begins, whether it's, you know, Western medicine seems to have had this Band-Aid approach where they hope you cope with stuff. But coping with something is not the same as healing for something. Healing and curing are different. Do you see that as something that maybe has transpired in your life? Is this idea of Western medicine

and Eastern medicine coming together? And do you kind of see that on the forefront of law happening? I know that's kind of, I don't know if that question is, there's a question in there, but maybe you can squint your eyes and see one. Yeah. No, I think like, I actually don't think it's east and west. Okay. To start because a lot of the medicine, for example, Ayahuasca and Salis Island, a lot of the, what we're familiar with, the lineage come from South America from the indigenous communities there. So that's not from the east. I think it's more of like a little melding of everything.

Like you have people who are in the psychedelic space are talking about meditation and breathing and all of that. So there are some Eastern influences, but the indigenous communities are coming from South America or Central America, like their influence in terms of how people have been working with ayahuasca or Hocuma, it's different. And then also in the Native,

American community too. They've been working with peyote for a very long time, right? So it's like it's not east and west. I see it. It's like kind of like an augmentation of influences from different places, depending, again, on the substance you're working with. Because ketamine is completely synthetic. It's not, it doesn't have a lineage, indigenous lineage,

Eastern lineage anywhere. So it depends kind of like, again, which one you're talking about. And what I think is very interesting is like there might be a shift, at least with respect to delivering psychedelic medicine or entheogenic medicine, there might be a shift in how that is being done, right? Because it's not so much like, we're going to give you a pill and then you're going to be okay. It's more of like with the maps trials is that you're doing, you're having this session, but it's. It's guided with two trained therapist, and they're with you for like, I don't know, it's like six to, it's like eight to ten hours, like very long, like the entire day, essentially. So that's what I understand the protocol to be. It's like they're with you and they're working with you as needed in that session.

And then there's also after the session, there's like, I don't know how many checkups they have or sessions they have. But it's like, at least at the very end, like the way they do that is not just like, I'm going to give you a pill and then hope for the best. It's also a little bit of a shift on traditional psychotherapy, right? Which you come in once a week or twice a week, whatever the cadence is, and you just go through whatever you need to go through with your therapist and have them help you and work through whatever you need to work with. But this is like, again, there's this.

substance that is going to create a mirror for your you and your problems and issues and feelings and whatever is going to come up. I think it'll be really interesting to see how all of this will come about. Because for me, as much as I wish there was an easy and shortcut, I haven't been able to find one in the last 10 years. Like, I really do wish there was a short, even though working with ayahuasca and ketamine, like, they helped tremendously. But in terms of actually creating the change and actually healing, I haven't been able to find a shortcut,

other than confronting all the things I needed to confront, right? And working through all of those things I needed to work through. So when if I were to translate that into a business model or a regulatory scheme, like I think they're getting to one particular aspects. Like, you know, Oregon is then trying to create that in their service centers and what they're trying to do. And I'm sure Colorado will do something similar, but it's taking the wisdom of what has. has really worked, which is like you kind of need to prepare somebody, you work through the experience, actual experience, and then you also help integrate. But my personal opinion is that the integration isn't just for a few sessions or for a few months. It's actually, depending on what it is that

you're dealing with, it could be years. It could be for the rest of your life. And that's what I mean. It's like I couldn't, I haven't found any shortcuts. And sometimes it feels that even when I do make progress. It's still three steps forward, two steps back, one step forward, two steps back. It's constantly like that. But things, but days do get easier. Problems do become easier. They become less triggering. They become less daunting. Or like if I'm feeling a certain way, I'm not in that fun for a long period of time. It might be a, and that's how I measure my progress. It's like, oh, well, it used to take me months to get over something like that. But now it takes me weeks or now it takes me days and now it takes me hours and that's progress for me. But it never really go away, you know, 100%. Those problems,

those issues, those old stories, like they don't fully ever go away. And I'm not saying that, I used to think that was a bad thing. And it's not. It's just they're there because those stories, those habits, reactions, and had served me at one point in my life. So they were there to protect me. It's just they don't serve me now and they don't make sense with my life now and who I am right now. But they were there and they're just going to be part of my history no matter what. It's so beautiful. It's such a, it's a beautiful thing to think about in that they don't ever go away, but they did serve a purpose.

And in some ways, when you figure out how to find a way around them, then you're also, if you tell the story, then you're providing someone else with a possible solution to get through those obstacles. It's almost like you're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for someone to follow. Like, hey, here's the way I did it. Here's the way I did it. And yeah, I can jump over that obstacle now, but it never goes away. It's always there. Sometimes I've got to go under it. Sometimes you're going to jump over it depending on the weather.

you know, and it brings me to the idea of strategies. Like some ways, we use different strategies to get over different obstacles. And if I'm thinking about strategies and obstacles, I'm thinking about, and I want to tie in psychedelics, I'm wondering if we just put on our entertainment hat and we talk about obstacles and psychedelics, do you think that maybe it's a good strategy for other states to maybe look at, If like in Hawaii, we have something called the Clarity Project and we're working in decriminalizing, you know, shout out to the Clarity Project, Hawaii.

Thank you for doing all you're doing. We have stuff in the legislature. Everybody in the legislature should be reading those and helping us pass that. But might it be a good strategy to show people in the legislature, psychedelics are a great way to lower health care cost. And if we look at the PTSD situation, if we look at this, might that be a good strategy to use. if we want to help decriminalize these particular medicines in legislature. So might that be a good strategy? And what would you add to that strategy?

I think that's a great strategy. And I know some people are trying to do that. Not around the country. And I don't know exactly. I think Florida is one of them with Medicare or Medicaid. And I think it's a strategy people are trying to employ with respect to talking with insurance companies, right? Right.

Good coverage for like with ketamine using it off label. It can be it's not covered right now. Like for some places and but some people have been able to gain success with certain insurance companies and it is this this money cost saving argument. But sometimes with with savings, you know, you have to have numbers to show what are the actual savings. And I think it's like it's definitely worthy, whether it's for the legislatures or insurance companies

to see the numbers of data and how it can actually save on costs. Because mental health right now, like what I know of it generally is that even with the parity bill, that requires insurance company to cover medical, mental health services, just as they would cover for other kind of medical services. They have to be on par with each other. And what I still see is that there is still struggle with access. They're still struggle with getting, having the therapist that can accept your insurance

so that it can be affordable. And a lot of therapists in the psychedelic space, they don't accept insurance, right, for a lot of different reasons, not just on tax savings and stuff like that, but it's just insurance doesn't cover it or their practice. They don't really accept insurance. So there's a lot of issues with respect to access and affordability. And without arguing for the tax savings and getting legislatures on board, getting insurance companies on board, it's going to only exacerbate the problem. But I do know there are people working on this particular issue.

And in terms of like arguments to make, to augment and help legislatures understand, like, anytime we can quantify this into some kind of value and give data as to how it can help save money or bring in money, because then, then all of that I think really helps. I don't know all of this like legal, the legislative, like political strategy to, so to speak.

So I can't speak too much about a political strategy, but I do understand that like, it seemed like common sense that if this is going to save money and it's going to help with the state's budget, why wouldn't you want to advocate for something, provided that there's a way to get all these things out from a safety perspective, right? Because I think legislatures are also very concerned about safety, and especially with something they don't know.

But the current studies, the clinical studies with MDMA and psilocybin have been tremendous in pushing forth, ushering forward the progress that we made from an advocacy perspective because the people can then go back and say, well, even though indigenous communities have been working with some of these substances and besides I've been for years, and it's safe in that community.

For us, we needed the scientific backings. We need the scientific research to kind of overstamp that. Yeah. It's interesting to see this, wave happening. And, you know, as you and I are sitting here and talking about ways in which we can maybe influence legislatures or influence people, my mind races back to like, you know, neon colored school buses with peace signs and electric Kool-Aid acid test and Mary pranksters.

And like, in some ways, it's so easy to romanticize that idea of like, wow, now I can, even though I wasn't alive in those times, I can romanticize this idea of people driving around on these school buses and being like, hey, look at what we're just spreading love and this is going to help everybody. And it's not a panacea, but in some ways, I'm wondering, do you see a return of that at all?

In some ways, you know, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And I'm wondering if from where you're sitting, you see a return to sort of like a hippie mentality of like this returning of a weird sort of innocence in a way? Visually, I don't see that with the people I've encountered. I'm not seeing people in tie-dye shirts and young color clothing and young colored cars and stuff like that.

I've seen that in some of like the design and marketing materials, but in terms of the person, not the people I've encountered. But there is some, I think like people are talking, there are some people who are talking about about it and it's like, oh, we're just spreading the love. There is some of that language coming back. But I think I've also been hearing, too, that people say it's not for everybody. There are risks involved, legal risk as well as physical, medical risk, potentially. And I think, again, because people have been pushing forward with the research in the last four or five decades, and especially in the last, you know, 10 years, there's been a lot of research in this space.

has given us more information so we can talk about these substances with more nuance and can point to what's happening in the brain and in the body. And so there's also advances in neuroscience that's contributing to the conversation as well. So it's not just like it's all these hippie-dippy people are talking about spreading the love, right? So and then at the same time, it's like the influx of spirituality, meditation, health and wellness is growing and growing as a trend, as a sector in the U.S. And people are just experiencing all kinds of pain and suffering, who have the opioid crisis. And there's a lot of things happening where people are starting to really see, like,

these substances can be very powerful tools to help us and address these issues. Right. So it's like a very different context in which the medicine is returning than it was in like the 60s and 70s, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. I just also really think like the scientific aspect of it has brought more credibility to what people are talking about. So it's not just going back to the 70s, 60s, 70s hippie-dippy, hippie mic said. But that is still there, you know, that.

Yeah. The language might be slightly different. The colors and all of them might be slightly different. But I think the ethos and the beliefs are still there. And it's coming through. It's just coming through in different ways with more credibility. Yeah. Sometimes I do get a little worried.

It seems that we have been saddled with this spiritual void for so long. You know, people have moved away from spirituality and into a world of concrete science, or so they say. And I worry sometimes in that, like, we are learning so much about what's happening inside the brain when people take psychedelics. And because of the research on PTSD or different relationships, we're really beginning to see the needle move towards this positive leaning thing. And we can corroborate it, even if it's an exercise and confirmation. bias. It's still, we still have this ways of looking at maps and looking at people and looking at results. And in some ways, on the benefit of that, like, I could see this moving into like sports medicine. I could see people, you know, we look at people that are doing like biohacking and trying to

find ways to increase their intelligence. But on another level, I recently read an article about gaming in psychedelics. And this gentleman was talking about building this game. And in this game, you know, you would have a psychedelic experience. But the problem is because in a psychedelic state, you may be open to suggestions or really open to suggestions, that paves the way for people putting suggestions in people that may be a little bit nefarious. And, you know, we had Jonestown.

We had Manson back in the day. You know, there are some real possibilities of seeing something like that happen again. Do you ever think about maybe some of the dark? sides of that? Oh, I think about the dark sides all the time. Oh, okay. Let me tell. Tell me what the dark things. So like, no, a lot of what you bring up, like there are possibilities, right? We don't know. Like, there are kinds of people who use psychedelics and they don't all want to spread love and peace and all of that. And I mean,

because I think there's a saying that I heard a long time ago, it's like with psychedelics, it kind of meets that person where they are. So whatever that person is, it also meets you there. So as much as like there's people who want to do good, but sometimes with good intentions, it can lead to very, very bad consequences, that harmful consequences. And having somebody in a state where they're open to all kind of suggestions

and stuff like that, It's a real, it's something that I think we all have to contend with in this space. And it's one thing that I, it reminds me like to really, really be careful and discerning about who you end up working with if you were working in this space, right? Because it's hard to know. And I feel like somebody said it to me in Peru. It was one of the healers I work with and he was like, be careful you trust your soul with. Right. And sometimes like many of us when it comes to healing, it feels like, oh, I want something else to heal me.

I want the pill. I want the therapist. I want the doctor, whoever it is outside of me to heal me. But the greatest healer is ourselves. Like I was my greatest healer. I had a lot of help and support. long the way, but nothing was really going to really heal me until I was able to accept my own agency to heal myself. And in terms of like healing myself, it's like, what does that really mean?

It's like for me, when it came with mental health issues, it's working through those things I needed to confront. And so, yeah, so like for some people, it's about healing. For some people, it's like, oh, what about this will be really cool? We can create a. a game out of it, that might be really interesting and we'll see where it goes. And there's going to be a lot of, there needs to be a lot of thinking about all of that. Like, do you want to participate? Some people might just want to participate and not really care because I think it's a game. It's all funning games. And, but can we really control everybody's behaviors? Like, I don't think we can. I think we could try to regulate some of it and try to do our best to protect individuals. But at some point,

that becomes where do you draw that line right because it can become too much um and you know like when i was down in peru people talk about um dark magic and all of that in peru uh with it when it comes to ayahuasca so it's like i think with everything there's a light and there's a dark and you can't have the light without the dark or vice versa. So in the psychedelic space as we are pushing forward, I think both need to be considered and talked about. And there are people talking about it. People are trying to create best practices and standards when you're working with ketamine, when you're working with ketamine because that's legal here. But like there's also a lot of conversations about like, you know, what's happening underground and stuff like that. Underground

completely, you're on your own. You all really depends on who you're working with. Do you trust this person? Did you do your research? And you're taking, everybody's taking so much risk underground, right? And that's one of the criticisms about it being underground is like there's no safety net whatsoever. And even like people who go abroad, you go abroad to different countries it doesn't mean just because you're going to Peru or Costa Rica, it's going to be safe. People have gone hurt. People have been sexually assaulted and brainwashed. Like there are all these stories out there.

And what can you do about all of that becomes pretty limited because you're abroad and actions you can take down there. And it creates a lot of havoc for that individual, for that person's life and again, adds more trauma and more pain and suffering to other things they might be working with. So I think about it a lot and I try to be discerning for myself, but then like when I talk to people, I always try to give the caution, the warning signs and just like thinking through, hey, not only is enough for everybody, but just be really careful about who you end up working with

because there are good actors and there will always be bad actors and you just may not know unless you're one of the victims of that back doctor. And from a legal perspective too, it's like because, I mean, unless you're only talking about ketamine, like ketamine doctors and like medical professionals

in this space working with it are allowed to work with it, they have malpractice insurance. They think about their liability risk, like informed consent, really getting, they're following these parameters as they do in the medical profession

because, again, they want not just limit their liability, but they want the person they're working with to understand what kind of risk they're taking, what alternatives they have, what benefits are in having these conversations. In the underground, I mean, you can have these conversations,

but there's no malpractice. insurance there's no like waivers and releases or anything like that and as in Oregon in Colorado and other states that might decriminalize like or might create a regulatory structure like there's these are the conversations they're having and I'm sure they're having making this part of like the training curriculum or a certification I don't know I don't know that for sure but I could imagine like the ethical implications of what you're doing the the standard of care the the best practices you should employ, like all of this is being developed in real time. There is no set standard of care in when it comes to working with ketamine right now.

I mean, it's emerging. One of the pioneers of ketamine therapy, like she's put out a paper on the ethics and best practices and what the standard of care would be like. But again, it's like that's one measurement. there might be other people who might think differently and might operate differently. And standard of care is important because if there is ever a tort litigation, you know, judges measure whether somebody deviated or whether they were negligent or not based on how much they deviated from a standard of care.

But we don't really have one, to my knowledge, we don't have consensus to what that is right now. Wow, that brings up a, like how do you, How do you manage what you can't measure? You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of, that's crazy to think about. I'm glad you brought that up. It brings up for me the idea of, you know, one of my favorite books is A Brave New World.

And he writes in that book about, for those who haven't read the book, a whole spoiler alert here, like these people take Soma, which is a disassociative. And when everything gets too crazy, hey, just take some soma, you'll be all right. Where are they taking soma?

I'm sorry? Where are they taking soma? Is it in India? I think that in that book, it's just basically a reference to like, it's just a pill and like people go home and take it. Whenever they get sad, whenever they're feeling stressed,

they just take like, and throughout the book they make references, oh, oh, just take some soma, you'll be all right. And they take it. And then they feel better about themselves. But they continue to live. the life that they were living.

And it just allows them to disassociate. And so when I hear the criticism for things, especially like ketamine, that book always comes up to me because while it can be very beneficial to disassociate and get a different perspective of what's happening, disassociation can also have a negative connotation of like, oh, you're just disassociating from the problem. Like you're not fixing it. You're just disassociating from it.

And so it seems to me like that scares me a little bit. When I hear there, there's a lot of criticisms about psychedelics. And the criticisms that I'm hearing are, look, you're just taking this substance to get away from your problems. You're not fixing them. I don't find that to be the case because a lot of people that I speak with are coming back from that experience and using as a catalyst to fix the issues. Maybe they see it in a different way. But I would be lying if I said, I don't, I could see it from that perspective. Like you can see it from that perspective.

Oh, you're just taking this thing to get away from it. And on some level, some people probably are. Have you thought about disassociatives as a sort of way to calcify problems in people's lives instead of healing problems in their life? I mean, just speaking with Kenme, I don't know exactly what other people's experiences are. Just like from my own experience, the dissociation actually really helped me. But again, it was like I had the experience, but then I work with my doctor to make sense of that experience and work through whatever came up. So I think sometimes, again, it depends on how people are working with it and what the protocol is because people have different protocols for working with ketamine. It's like it depends on the doctor, the therapist that are sitting and working with that individual.

if you're talking about people who, you know, there are some ketamine clinic where they just provide the treatment for like six sessions or something like that. And then the person goes and they might integrate with their other therapists or whatnot. But again, it's like it's these tools that people are using. If the, what is emerging is clear. Like you're not just going to take this substance and then be cured. and not do the work after.

Like, I think most of the people who are in this space, especially the medical practitioners, but also people who have been working with these substances, whether underground or they've been doing research, like they understand this. The powerful combination is both. You're working with the substance and you're working with some aspect of integration, right?

And when I think about dissociating, like, I mean, that's people do that all the time in in our lives I do it sometimes like when I space out when I daydream I'm like I'm dissociating from the present moment right because I don't know something about the present moment whether it's too painful or too boring whatever it is like I'm not fully there and it was a problem because but at the same time dissociation is a mechanism for me I don't know for other people, but for me, it was a mechanism in which I used to cope with life. And it served its purpose until it doesn't. And I think it's like, because it served a purpose for me, I don't necessarily think of it as bad. It's just like, that was what I was doing to cope with

the day to day of my life and the stresses of my life. And it helped me until it didn't. And I think the people who are saying criticizing like oh you're just using psychedelics and then you're just not going to work on your problems and stuff like that and then I think like you said most of the people that I have encountered are more of like oh no they it creates a mirror they see their issues and then they start working on it I think some more than others it really kind of depends on a person's commitment and willingness and also like resources too like whether it's time whether it's money, whether it's support. Because doing all this type of work to work on yourself, you know, it's like you don't just,

it requires time and energy. You know, it's not to sleep on the TV and then binge watching or something or something like that. It actually could take some work. And maybe like, I think like that's what, again, trying, going back to the book, that's what I was hoping to convey more is that this process of figuring things out and working through things in a person's psyche, that's really the interesting part for me because it's like you open the door, you see the room, but how are you going to clean up the room? How are you going to rearrange it? Are you going to redecorate it? Redesign it? What are you going to do? Right.

So there's a lot of different options and choices people can make. And I think maybe if people more people talk about that integration piece rather than just like, oh my gosh, I had this great experience and it was transformative. That's the sexy part. That's the fun and exciting story to tell, but the story afterwards is a little bit more, it's less exciting. It's less sexy. And sometimes it could be more or less the same struggle before the psychedelic experience, but in a different way. And maybe more people talk about that. People can start to see, like, actually, you know, the work just started and then we're continuing on with that. Because a lot of stories, like you said, it's like I hear it's like, oh, we had that a great experience.

It was very transformative and then not much afterward, right? And maybe that gives the impression that, oh, I did this and I got transformed. And that was pretty much it. But I don't think for many people who have lasting changes, it doesn't really stop there from what I know. Many of them continue to work with therapists. Many of them continue to meditate or do some kind of somatic mobility. And they continue to practice on their own, even if they aren't working with somebody. but they have these tools that they add to their tool belt and they use it as needed

and they continue to practice it. And some tools might be useful for one day, might not be useful for another day, some more effective than others. But they have all these tools now that they've learned and earned and they can use it whenever they need to. Yeah, I like that. I love the idea of the relationship. You know, sometimes if you're lucky in life, for maybe unlucky, but it seems like when you meet someone, you're like, oh my God, this person is so attractive. And you're just like, whoa, look at them. And like, you know, you have this

relationship with them. But then you get married and you realize there's a difference between physical and mental. Physical is a moment. When you look back at a life, you've built with somebody, it's so much more rewarding than something that happens once or twice. And it's the same thing with psychedelics. At the beginning, you have this transformative experience like, oh, my God, it was so beautiful. But then after you begin doing the work, and then you can look, where you are now versus where you were three years ago you're like oh my gosh what a beautiful

thing I've accomplished what a beautiful thing we've built together it's a beautiful thing right and the thing is like you know I might have a few powerful experiences but then when I look back in my life

and where I am now and the person I am now my capacity to empathize and and love and share and be grateful for just being alive, when I start to look at it from that framework, more often than not, I start to appreciate the beauty of life,

the beauty of people. And that, to me, has been staying with me for, I feel like that's becoming a lot more tangible than the experiences I've had years ago. You know, those powerful things, they were great. But again, what's tangible, what feels and tangible,

taste tangible right now. It's like these beauty of life that I'm experiencing in my daily life. So when I see plants and flowers, when I'm in nature, for example, it's like, it feels really, really good just to be in nature. And I don't need psychedelic experiences to feel all of that anymore because of all the work I've done. So it's like daily life doesn't seem like grind as much anymore. just yeah like the things seem less boring like they're just like oh they're just activities movements actions taken by people words by people like people are fascinating now plants are fascinating animals are fascinating like um yeah it just feels like really it's not like seeing life with like rosy lenses or anything like that it's more like just really

learning to appreciate what is there and what I do have and the people that I'm around. It's just really fascinating. Just like, oh, okay, I can see them as they are. I'm not trying to judge them or impose any judgments on them or my own imaginations of what they should be, could be in all of that, but appreciating that. And at the same time, be able to see that we still have problems, right? We still have issues, big issues with respect to how we, geopolitics of our time.

We recently had earthquakes in Turkey and just what we're doing to the planet. And yeah, so it's just seeing all of that. Does it, this idea and this understanding of moving through nature and wanting to make people around you better and the psychedelic experience. You've already said that the book was inspired by a psychedelic experience and I'm wondering, is women in psychedelics and sisters in psychedelics and Asian psychedelic society, are these also outgrowths

and wanting to share the experience with other people? Does those come from having the psychedelic experience as well? Sister and psychedelics, I actually did not create that or built that community. It's all through the fabulous work of Dana Harvey and Leah Chan. They did incredible work of building that community to connect women who are like sisters in this space. So they've been really amazing. And they just the plug, like they have a summit every, I think every year. This is the second year.

So I guess every year. And I think it's sometime in July. So check them out if you're interested. It's in psychedelics. And it's their. summit in Vancouver. Women in psychedelics and Asians and psychedelics, I think it was just started out as when I came into this space, I just didn't see a lot of women in this space or Asian Americans in this space. And women in psychedelics was just a way to honor and profile and shed light on like a lot of the

women that are doing amazing things in this space already. I have not been that. great at updating that because of other commitments and other priorities that's been taking on my time. So I'm doing it slowly on my pace. So apologies for not being so consistent. And then Asian and psychedelics is it's just really like I wasn't really seeing a lot of people who look like being selling me. We may have similar shared history and it was just there to kind of be like a White House be like, hey, is anybody there in this space? Like, are you around? And one thing I will plug in is also the Asian psychedelic collective.

Simran Sethi was and her other co-founders. Like, they are doing a lot of incredible work to organize and provide a space in a community for the Asian Americans. I think, but I think it goes beyond Americans too in this space. So she's doing incredible job and leveraging the community that was coming together. in the Asian Psychedelic Society. What was her name again? Simran Sethi.

Nice. Very nice. It's fascinating to me. If we take it back to the Dandelion Odyssey, what do you want people to walk away from this book? What message would you want people to walk away from in your fiction writing? I think, though, it kind of goes back to my original message is that I want, want, I wish people can see their own wholeness as well too.

That's a good message. It's a, it's a way for people to figure out where they fit in and understand that they are not only probably the problem in their life, but also the solution in their life. It's fascinating to think about. You know, let me, yeah, go ahead, please, I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. So I just want to add, like, there's this art form in Japan. It's called kinsugi. And what they do is they take broken pottery and broken pottery they'll repair it with gold. So you have like basically like a bowl for example and you have all these lines indicating where the cracks are but it's covered in gold now and it actually ends up being a beautiful piece of new pottery with these old cracks. And that like that message or like seeing the whole

that's kind of like how I've seen myself for a long time. It's like I used to feel, oh, I was broken, kind of like the broken pottery. But then when you put yourself, when I put myself back together, it's like putting all these gold linings to basically patch up the cracks and it actually turns up to a new piece of art. So that's, again, like that's the metaphor for what I'm trying to convey. And when I want people to be able to see their own wholeness, it's kind of like that. It's like you're your own healer and you can start patching up these cracks that you thought were cracks into like this new beautiful artwork that is yourself. Wow, I love that.

That's beautiful. Does is why we're going to do that? Does she do that for like a hobby in the book? No, I didn't think I'm having that. I think it's too hard to add it as a hobby. It's like, you know, a Japanese art, like one of the things I appreciate about Japanese art, it's like they take a lot of time. to hone up their skill set and the art history. So I don't feel like I can make her qualify to be able to do that.

It's such a cool thing. I love learning and I'm so thankful for to get to talk to people. And Serena, I had an absolute blast talking to you. I know we're kind of coming up on the hour and a half here, but I'm really thankful for your time and I'm really looking forward to reading the book. I'm looking forward to following the things that you're concerned. continuing to do. And before I let you go, though, what do you have coming up?

Where can people find you? And what are you excited about? What do I have coming up? Other than just, you know, working on law firms, working with clients there. And I don't really have that much because I'm kind of like in my, let's put my head down and just focus on revising the book to get into a better shape. So that's going to be the next three, three, four months, actually. And in the meantime, people can find me at, you can check our website, radical law.com, R-A-D-I-C-L-E-Law.com.

And what I'm most excited for is just finishing my book. And at the same time, building the law firm, building it, and promoting it, and, you know, educating people and people. pieces of the law that is relevant to our work, like, and continue to do the advocacy work in this, in this space and talking to a lot of people about psychedelics and all of that, but yeah. So who are the people that, like, would be calling you? Who are the people that would be reaching out to your law from?

Like, what kind of clientele would be interested in contacting radical law? So social entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs and co-founders in the psychedelic space work with, like, ketamine doctors and therapists in the ketamine world churches, religious churches, anthogenic churches, as they're called. I've also worked with them as well too and consulted on a case for them. But yeah, and anybody who is interested in doing non-profit work, things like that. Very nice. Very nice. Well, Serena, I really appreciate your time today.

Do you have a potential date set for getting a copy out to your publisher or do you have like some goal set for for the release dates and stuff like that? It's expected to come out in September. I don't know exactly what date yet. But I will let it. I will let you know. And then I will also post it on my LinkedIn as well too when it's ready to get published. Fantastic. I want to say thank you so much.

inviting me and having this conversation and early on. And, you know, it's really, really wonderful and love your energy. And just thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Yeah, the pleasure's all mine. I hope you come back when you release it. You know, I realize that correlation and causation are different. But I think it's important to say Matt Zeman, Randall Hansen, all these people that have number one books have been on here.

I'm not saying I caused it. There's definitely a correlation there. So you're on here now. So I'm excited for it. It's so awesome that you had Randall on. Randall's amazing. Shout out to Heroic Hearts, Randall Hansen, Matt Zeeman, Cole Butler. I'm so thankful to get to have even an echo of a voice in this space.

I think that we are all doing our best to try to make the world a little bit better in our own way. And I want to amplify everyone's voice who's trying to do that. I think it's an important time for us. And it's an exciting time. So thank you to you, Serena. Yeah, thank you to you for amplifying our voices. So that's important. It is.

That's all we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. The links to Serena's information will be in the show notes, and you should reach out to her. If you have a nonprofit, if you are someone who is seeking advice for legal reason, not all legal reasons,

but in the psychedelic space, reach out to her. Thank you for your time, ladies and gentlemen. Serena, hang on one second. I'm going to close this out, but I'll still talk to you. Aloha, everybody.