TrueLife - Speak Loud. Die Free. Broadcast Truth. - Jack Gorsline & Alex Detmering

Episode Date: June 15, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Jack & Alex—no mapno mercyno god in this signal—what we have here is not a podcastit’s an interdimensional dump of raw signal from the edge of the hallucinationcoming in hot from the cortex of a dying archonwe found the feed inside a broken cassette tape under a senator’s tongueenter Jack Gorslinetruth-hacker, reality surgeon, full-time ghost in the policy machinehe’s got classified chalkboards and a third nostril for lieshe once broke a teacher’s union strike with a pen full of mescaline and Marxhe does interviews in dreamspace and files FOIA requests on ayahuascaand then Alex Detmeringno—noyou don’t get to “understand” Alexyou interface with himyou black out and wake up mid-slide decksweating glyphshe’s a brand sorcerer with teethhalf-venture capitalist, half-forgotten Sumerian storm godhe built a marketing funnel that opened a portal in midtownJack is the scalpelAlex is the screamtogether they form the delta-virus of gnosisWe are on the eve of a conference, yes—but it feels more like a ritual trial by fire held in the mouth of a dead god.The PhDs are humming.The politicians are leaking spores.And the lunatics?The lunatics have taken the wheel.So rip out your compass, bite down on the microphone,and scream your birth name backwards into the void.This… is TrueLife.And we’re already too deep to turn back.https://linktr.ee/JackGorslinehttp://alexdetmering.com/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles, the track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to True Life Podcast. Hope the sun is shining, hope the birds are singing, hope the wind is at your back. No map, no mercy, no God in this signal. What we have here is not a podcast. It's an interdimensional dump of raw signal from the edge of the hallucination. Coming in hot from the cortex of a dying arc on.

We found the feed inside a broken cassette tape under a senator's tongue. Enter Jack Gorsland, truth hacker, reality surgeon, full-time ghost in the policy machine. He's got classified chalkboards and a third nostril for lies. He once broke a teacher's union strike with a reality. a pinful of mescaline and marks. He does interviews and dreamscaes and files FOIA requests on Iowaska. And then Alex Dettmering. No.

No, you don't get to understand Alex. You interface with him. You black out and wake up mid-slide deck sweating glyphs. He's a brand sorcerer with teeth. Half venture capitalist, half-forgotten Sumerian Storm God. He built a marketing funnel that opened a portal in Midtown. Jack is the scalpel. Alex is the scream.

Together they form the Delta virus of We are on the eve of a conference, yes, but it feels more like a ritual trial by fire held in the mouth of a dead God. The PhDs are humming. The politicians are leaking spores. And the lunatics, the lunatics have taken the wheel, ladies and gentlemen. So rip out your compass, bite down on your microphone, and scream your birth name backwards into the void. This is True Life podcast. Welcome, everybody.

How are you today? Yeah, thanks for having us. Really appreciate it. Yeah, man. I'm super stoked you guys are here, man. We've got a big conference coming up. Both of you guys are putting out incredible content. You guys are both doing amazing things out there.

And I'm stoked to have you all on board today. Jack, I want to start with you over here, man. The Psychedelic Riders Guild, you've got all the psychedelic states of America. Tell us what you got going on over there. Man, it's been a wild ride. A couple of months ago, I teamed up with the good folks in Psychetics today in Lucid News, along with a really great growing team to form a psychedelic. States of America advocacy spotlight initiative. We're aiming to interview an advocacy or advocacy group,

an advocate or advocacy group in all 50 states plus D.C. and Puerto Rico, along with an international presence, I've had conversations with advocacy leaders in Ireland, Spain, south of the equator as well, as far reaching as Southeast Asia, really hoping to cast a light and make the, you know, the leaders within communities like ours, who are really. fighting for change in the front lines of this renaissance, both, you know, an educational awareness and directly in advocacy, really making them unavoidable and unmistakable as far as frontline references, you know, for further media coverage, even beyond what we're doing here in the psychedelic media space. So that has been off to a hot start. We've interviewed leaders from Texas

just the day after they got their $50 million in Ibegain state level funding for Ibegan research, interviewed some really incredible advocates from Maine, just last front. Friday, Nevada, a couple days before that. We had a great column, you know, and live stream combo with the good folks with the Michigan Psychedelic Society hosted by Dr. Elena Jaster. Really encourage you, George, to reach out to Hershey's fantastic. I think one of the brightest science minds of our time, and I think could go down as one of the most important science journalists of our time.

If I can bring her into the fold even further, you know, at some point. So, yeah, that's been really what's been going on with Psychedelic States of America. yesterday, I interviewed Paul Ryder, founder of the Congregation for Sacred Practices. They just accomplished, you know, pretty remarkable feat in becoming the first psychedelic church seminary ever to be accredited to their knowledge, really adding legitimacy to the psychedelic religion scene and how people become ministers and facilitators, et cetera. So really trying to put a face on these issues in a way that isn't just the same five

to seven scientists and five to seven lawyers, which I love a lot of those people, but there's a lot more folks out there doing the good work really, you know, in the weeds. So you and I have spoken extensively, and Alex was an early advocate for the creation of a psychedelic Writers Guild to wrap up my long intro answer pretty quickly, which has been a slower building process than, you know, I'd originally expected or hopes because you really need to build a team in order to build the next gen kind of community that we're, you know, that we have in mind. So in a one-sentence elevator pitch kind of way, the Psychiatric Writers Guild is an attention. to really both corral and coalesce the next generation of really great psychedelic writers,

journalists, content creators, educational and harm reduction specialists. And I really think that creating a base of resources for collaboration and co-learning will also be able to really elevate and amplify the quality of coverage content, you know, an advocacy work that's actually, you know, being pushed out there. We're all much stronger when we team up. I really believe that, especially in the age of algorithmic discrimination and so many other forces working against amplifying genuinely, you know, grassroots and or, you know, community-led movements like this, populist-led movements like the secular Renaissance. So the Writers Guild was an attempt to both out of frustration for the lack of quality mainstream media coverage there seems to be, i.e. the Los Angeles Times calling Kakaa Laiwaska Light just a couple of months ago or the Boston Globe. providing some of like the most, you know,

uninformative and uninspired election coverage of what could have been one of the most seminal drug policy reform campaigns of our time, the failed question four campaign, just completely lost an opportunity to, you know, really detail what that movement could be to one of the most influential electorates at the state level in the United States. So through all that frustration in conversations with so many incredible people, scientists, media leaders, business owners, nonprofit, advocates, etc.,

you know, it's kind of become very clear that we need to take the reins ourselves and really build a better way and build a hub so that the quality of this media coverage can, you know, be fed from the independent space into the mainstream media. I've said it before, and I don't know, I'll say it again. I think that some of the most important journalist of our time and some of the most talented media professionals of our time are actively working in drug journalism right now. We do more with less. We have limited resources, limited funds, and limited scope, and yet some of the very best true old school on the front lines reporting of some of the most seminal movements of our time related to drug policy reform in the Western world are actively being conducted and reported in magazines and online outlets that my parents have never heard of.

And that's a real shame. And I think that we have an opportunity to radically restructure the way that drug journalism, you know, meets the American populace where they're at. Man, it's so what, it's really well said. I see so many people on the front lines, putting out so many beautiful articles. And in some ways, it seems to me to be a renaissance of journalism in so many ways. Alex, you're, you're in the game too, man. You're putting out some beautiful pieces, not only written pieces,

but also some incredible thought-provoking, like out-in-nature pieces, too. Man, what are your thoughts on what Jack was talking about where we are in this Renaissance right now and contributing to that? Well, so contributing to it, I've just begun. Like you guys are, you and many other people are way more seasoned, actually having skin in the public game in this space. But I really love it, man. And thanks, man. It comes from my heart.

I'm like trying to do the best as I can to enter into like becoming some, like a journalist in a world that I truly love. doing it with like integrity and getting better. I've connected with Jack a while ago because he's a total badass and he is productive. I think he's like half generative AI because I'm not exactly sure how he writes so many articles what he does and they're good and it's weird. So you know, more power to him. I hope he teaches me a secret so we meet in person.

But yeah, we met a while ago and I think we've come together on the idea that like psychedelics and psychedelic journalism and all this content that could be created, we could, we could, it could be so much bigger than it is, right? Like imagine like when psychedelics first hit the scene, right? They were at the very like cutting edge of culture. They defined culture in a lot of ways. You think about like freaking beetle songs and entire albums, right? Or like Allen Ginsberg poems where he took LSD and you think about all this stuff right, that was at the very cutting it and defining like what fashion was what so many things were and over you know some decades that psychedelics was was pushed under underground because of you know all the reasons that we know right but but

there's a sense that um that now is the time to reclaim kind of the place in culture that psychedelic media could have and uh because it's been you know safeguarded by some true honest to god like you heroes who have stuck with it in in times that i can't even imagine because i wasn't even born right uh but but now um now's kind of time for this space i feel like to grow up and i'm not like saying it from like some kind of space of judgment because fuck i need to grow up just as much or more than anybody else right uh but but jack and i and a bunch of other people in the media space want to see that happen and that's kind of what we're hoping to start off with this psychedelic writers guild is create a professional group that pushes each other

to make the next best stuff in this space. We're starting that off in psychedelic science with a panel that Jack and I are doing with with Caesar and Susan, as we all know, Mary, a bunch of other awesome journalists and content creators in this space. And we hope that it will be like the first meeting where we get together. We talk about this as like a public. professional organization, right? But an organization of professionals and where we start talking about like, look, how can we help each other? How can we reclaim kind of the birthright of some of the coolest content that can be possible, which is like, fuck, the very frontiers of the mind and combining that with some, with some

journalism and all the other tools of the trade. And I also want to note, you know, I think it's, you know, I got my start. Alex, you mentioned where, you know, you're kind of new to this. I've talked with George about this before. I wanted to be a reporter since I was 12 years old, that very particular strain of Audi HD, if you will. But really got my start, you know, 18 months ago. You know, my first byline talking to its memo was less than two years ago.

And, you know, was able to kind of ride a wave of covering the question four campaign to hear, which has been, you know, an incredible journey. But in that process, to Alex's point, you know, have seen both a demand for higher quality content in the mainstream, but I've also seen like the need to fully legitimize this space at, you know, as a journalistic beat. I, you know, have been trying to work with a number of, you know, larger, you know, kind of legacy media outlets on, you know, pitching some collaborative stories with independent, you know, outlets in the psychedelic space, nonprofit outlets in the psychedelic space. And a really great example of just how it doesn't still doesn't connect is that I brought

a pretty big scoop that I've been working on for a while to a local outlet in Boston. and the news director, after giving him the full pitch with my co-reporter, his first question was basically to ask if I, you know, was being, you know, funded by some drug dealer who wanted to see a certain narrative get spun, which is total, you know, total nonsense. And again, an ignorance of how robust this media ecosystem has been for a long time. And again, I think all the more need to legitimize this kind of coverage. drug policy, even beyond the psychedelic space, affects all of us in untold ways 10 times over, even if it's a couple of degrees separated from our daily lives. So the need to deconstruct drugs, drug journalism, and really fully integrate higher quality, more nuanced coverage into how people understand these issues from a news media context, I think is really vital

and something I'm really excited that Alex has expressed strong interest in as well. I also want to note that our panel at the Psychedelic Playhouse on Wednesday night next week is four white dudes. And Caesar Martin is our Colombian brother, but three white dudes and Mary Carron, who is one of my favorite writers in this space. I've had a lot of really interesting conversations with folks about the need for broader representation in the psychedelic media ecosystem. And I want to assure anyone who's attending that, like, that is 100% our priority for what comes next. I would love to work with, you know, journalists who can tell stories that I'm not the most equipped person to tell those stories and to report, you know, on those issues. So hoping to incorporate, you know, a cornucopia of diversity in the building of this community, not just in the bringing more people in after it's established. So I really want this to be a community-built effort.

Man, I love it. It's such a, it's such like a double-edged sword. It seems like the more better stories and the more the psychedelic and drug policy argument gets out there, the bigger the censorship. And we've seen a giant wave of censorship from Artem and normalized psychedelics to Carly Dutch, all these incredible people that have been really out on the trail crushing it, all of a sudden, they're just kind of getting wiped off of meta and wiped off these other boards. Do you think that somehow these two things are like the bigger it gets, the heart of the censorship is? And if so, are we all playing a role in that?

Are we somehow playing into the censorship by getting the message out there? I think it's a really good question. First of all, shout out Carly from Studio Del. One of my favorites and, you know, really excited to be collaborating with them on the Playhouse events next week. I think it really, I don't think that there's a good. good answer. When the algorithm is designed to sweep indiscriminatorily for any mention of these substances, then I don't think that we're contributing to, you know, that process. I think that we're, you know, fighting upstream, a pretty impossible battle. And I only think, I think the only way that

changes is to really shake some of these Silicon Valley tech executives by the shoulders and say, you know, don't you see the hypocrisy of the use in private, you know, boardroom? retreats and the rise of C-suite executive usage. And I just interviewed Paul Ryder yesterday, who was in the dot-com bubble in the late 90s, first moved out to Silicon Valley and was working in that space, you know, before psychedelics were cool in the tech scene and said it was completely different. This is not something that was happening in Silicon Valley 30 years ago in the way that it is now.

And yet censorship is even more rampant, I think, now than it was then of psychedelics in, you know, in our culture. even though there is such an increased interest in access and information. So I don't know that we're hurting it actively, but I do think that an inflection point is being reached where some shoulder shaking and some stern shouting through megaphones outside of office headquarters might be in need. Alex, what are your thoughts on that, man? Well, I mean, in some sense, it's a sign of maturity, right?

Yeah. Like, you know, if you make enough noise, then you run into resistance. and then you break through and you hit the next level of resistance when you hit the next level, right? So I think in some sense it's a good sign. Look, if I had an Instagram profile that had like 40K followers and it got deleted, me telling that to me would make me want to punch me. So I empathize with the people that have put blood, sweat, and tears into building those profiles and it getting wiped out.

That is awful. but and I am sorry, but I would say at some level, right, censorship is a bit of a vote of legitimacy or a sample legitimacy. It means are making enough noise to get to create some pushback. And I think, you know, if psychedelics and if like what was going on here wasn't legit and wasn't really coming from people that care and are willing to put their lives online, then I would be worried. then this would be existential.

But because people are doing this, many, many people are doing this out of like, honestly true love and a deep passion. I mean, then what's, I feel like it's not really a problem because the passion that we have for just this space and the world that we're hoping that,

you know, it's going to be ushered in is way greater than any fucking algorithm sensor, you know, all, it's, it's just going to last longer, right? And I feel like, you know, given time we break through. So that, that's my vibe, man. I'm not, I'm not super worried about it, although I haven't gotten owned yet by Facebook. So I can only hear. I've danced a bit with the algorithm in recent days and had, you know, it's interesting. So far, most of my profiles have gone unscathed. My personal

profile was suspended for like a week randomly, but I think that has more to do with one rogue they're reporting everybody and their mother that's ever mentioned psychedelics on on meta platforms rather than my profile being in violation of community guidelines. But even like the news space, I mean, it just, it's so ridiculous that they can't design a better algorithm. But that said, to shout out, you know, my good friend Kat Kerner, Vival Underground. It's been going strong for. Yeah.

But, you know, even in the face of, you know, hundreds of, you know, over 100 years of prohibition and counting in terms of many drugs. but a half century and counting of psychedelics, the underground is arguably stronger than ever because the underground has been forced to adapt and adjust and find innovative ways to reach people. But when you get started in the above ground and think everything is peachy

and then you have 80,000 followers and your entire user base or following follower count goes out overnight, you have no way to contact them, what are you to do? So I'm really curious and I'm hopeful to learn more from folks at Psych Science about what collective solutions we can start thinking up to combat these issues.

I don't think it's as simple as building another platform or anything like that, but maybe it is teaming up with the guys at Blue Sky and the folks at Beehive and newsletter, social media platform combo, or maybe it's our own thing. So we will certainly find out one way or another. Well, something that comes to mind here is it's also an opportunity for a conversation. right like i was always reading um my parents uh who are uh conservatives uh they they love what i like they love what i do and and they've seen me personally change a lot through it we're we're we're closer than ever it's awesome they send me this article this wall street journal article that

uh covered i i was iwaska or psychedelic in general integration that's going on in silicon valley lots of integration therapists and all this stuff right i read through the article kind of a piece, but I go to the comments and like 90% of them are just the most anti-psychedelic, like, oh, we went through this in the 60s, it fucked up all our parents, all this kind of stuff, right? So, you know, I think living in certain spaces, we can think that the culture is a place where it isn't, right? And moments where there is like pushback or also moments to like talk about like, okay, where is the state of this conversation really? How do people really feel about this because I you know living in the bay right uh psychedelic use is pretty pretty common

and and not necessarily a point of conversation right or distinction um but out you know in in in the Midwest in different places right that that's a different thing and so I think like that the fact that we're running into this friction I think is is a moment to kind of look at like well where is the state of this conversation really if we're actually going to talk through this censorship what's necessary to talk this and ship? Like what would make tech companies comfortable rolling back the censorship built into their algorithms, right? There's some level, there's something that made them put there to begin with and it was probably data driven, right? So what is the data showing and how and what does that mean about like communication strategies about what we can do

to really take the conversation like mainstream in a more effective way? And I think there are ways of doing that. But these are just more my hyper. hypotheses. I'm not like, you know, the guess is more than anything. I think it makes total sense. You know, and on some level, if I, if I push back and play devil's advocate, like there is so much fraud. Like there's so many people selling just garbage garbage on the internet. People getting hoodwinked and like, you know, and Lord knows what people are selling some sort of, you know, gas station.

I bog a concoction. Like there's people getting hurt and losing money. So like this, they have to do something. And if you're an exec and you're getting pushback from mad people calling in upset. Maybe maybe people have taken these substance and, you know, without any research and gotten hurt. And they're going to blame that social media company. Like they got to do something. And maybe this wide sweeping ban is a way for them to show like, look, we're doing our best out here to walk this line of free speech and censorship. So, you know, I get it from their perspective. Like, you know, I don't know what it's like to be in

the executive boardroom when you have your entire company, you know, fucking lawyers coming at you left and right. Like, hey, shut this down or else. Like, so there's, we got to give them their due. I mean, they're trying to do something. And I think that that needs to be said as well. What do you guys thought? Yeah, I just, I have a hard time believing that, you know, with all of the technology

at their disposal that's currently just sitting in their R&D labs, maybe even like, that's already ready to go and like Apple sits on things for, you know, five years before rolling it out. You can't tell me they don't have the technology to build an algorithm, get them to distinguish the two. I hear you that like something. has to be done about, you know, from their perspective, maybe about telegram, you know, accounts and stuff, you know, I get it. But it just seems like a lot of, you know, excuses about how they can't design a better algorithm. I mean, we've got, you know, chat GPT, you know, produced

movies that look like the real thing. We've got, you know, some of the most incredible tools, you know, that, you know, that man has ever created at her disposal. That can literally warp reality right in front of us and make us question the very fabric of what we're seeing. And yet they can't add a couple of extra lines of code to distinguish whether or not this is a telegram channel that's selling, you know, bogus gray market products. You know, and to that point, George, like even BI, you mentioned, you know, sketchy products, the need for higher quality information and uniform standards in these spaces and to not censor them extends the legal realm for, you know, personal use as well.

I have a, you know, a good friend lives in the state of Texas who, you know, purchased a functional mushroom, what she thought was a functional mushroom gray market product, a polka dot bar that has been known. That brand has been known to have a number of copycats. Next thing you know, she's facing a psilocybin possession charge because she had a copycat and didn't realize it. And the bar that she thought didn't have any psilocybin in it did. Now, I don't know if that's on Pocodot or if that's on somebody else.

but there's, you know, a number of issues that extend beyond just the algorithm, social media, censorship space, that downstream of that censorship, people are really being harmed and making unformed decisions and facing legal consequences for, you know, something that's not really on them. So, yeah, all that said, the urgency is growing to address this in a real way from the tech industry and in a meaningful way that distinguishes. So our livelihoods aren't lost at a time where, you know, the average American and the average viewer is, you know, reaching for independent information more than they are from established institutions. I mean, I think, agreed, man. But I think it probably is technically possible. I'm not a developer or I have worked in tech for a while. I'm sure it is technically possible. I think it's a question of like pressure and revenues, right?

If there's enough pressure, enough people show them that they care, that other people care for this content, right? By and large, companies will go where the data points, right? And if it's costing them money, and if it's costing them public backlash to be censorious, then they're going to be incentivized not to do that. So I think, I mean, who knows all the things that go on the boardrooms of the top tech companies? but I think it in the way that I random small guy on the internet but the way I the way I I will take this as kind of a personal challenge I guess to like do my best to show how authentic real like heart led honestly yeah I'm I'm coming from right I think it's a challenge for us to really break that I really bring this back to like taking this conversation

up a level. I think there are things that, I think that there are things that can be done within this world that can bring like, so I'll just give me an example. I'll give an example. Okay. I was reading, um, this amazing book called, uh, uh, the ethics of caring. I don't know if you ever read the ethics of caring. Um, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's all about just like, uh, you know, ethics within therapy relationships, especially with psychedelic therapy, but it's all set in code. And I'm reading through this book and I'm just like blown away at the level of psychological insight that is in this. I'm like, this is like, this is like in some sense 10 years ahead of where other, where therapy is in other places, just to be honest with you, like where mainstream therapy is in some ways. Like why isn't this more widely known?

And I think part of it is that the honest to God wisdom that has come from like just the use of psychedelics, has been in some sense, like kept trapped within the culture of psychedelics. Why is that? There's probably a lot of reasons. But I think part of it, at least to me, has to be with communication, right? And the people that have solved this communication have had outsized gains. Some of them have been like outside, at least originally outside of the psychedelic world and come in. But I think they've kind of given us a little bit of a roadmap.

The most obvious example for that is Michael Pollan, right? Michael Pollan, food journalist, 20 years, comes in, writes one book that changes the way so many people perceive psychedelics. So you can love Michael Pollan or hate Michael Pollan, but I don't think you can deny. I mean, I personally like Michael Pollan a lot. But I'm saying I don't think you can deny the impact that he had. I think a big part of why that was is because the way he talked about psychedelics and the psychedelic world was fundamentally different than how it usually was talked about by the people. by many people within that world. And I find that to be a compelling case study, right?

And an inspiration that I think psychedelic media creators, people in this space can learn from. I mean, obviously he has authority and stuff like that. I hear that. There are things that we can't replicate. But I also think there are lessons learned for us. And that's kind of what I'm trying to do personally, right, is really, really look at my language

and really, really look at the stories that I'm creating. And I'm a freaking noob, okay? not speaking here as like someone who's more than a noob trying to get better every post and everything that I've used that's what I am but I'll say what I'm trying to do I'm trying to make it so that anyone could listen or read what I'm saying and understand what I'm saying immediately right like psychedelics in this world has developed a very powerful language for a reason right we're talking about things that are different that are unusual right but when we're trying to communicate that outside of the people that are familiar with that lexicon, it becomes, I think there's a disconnect there often, and then people kind of naturally dismiss what they don't connect with immediately, right? And so I think that's a big challenge for psychedelic content. That's a big challenge for psychedelic media, right? It's because like we almost have to play within this ecosystem because it's it is so awesome that people here are honestly by and large quite loving that survive right but i think

to thrive we have to risk the the dark passage which is to go beyond communicating this people i'm talking myself as much as can anyone right to go beyond talking to these people to talk to the rest of the world to the people that are commenting on those wall street journal articles and be like psychedelics ruined my parents in the 60s they were all delusional got to got i'm not saying that's true or not true, but I'm saying that person's feelings are still real, and there's a lot of people that feel that way. And I'm not, and honestly, they're all together wrong, but I'm saying there needs to be a conversation, and I think that can be changed through the way we communicate. I love it. I definitely agree. And I think this is something that Alex and I both very much,

you know, first connected over is, you know, I viewed telling the stories of the everyday advocate or activist in this space is, you know, a public education service in a lot of ways. But also, really wanting to, I mentioned my parents or my parents are in their mid-60s, not the kind of folks who I think will ever touch a secular substance in their lives, and that's okay. But when I get talking with, you know, my mom about the UC San Francisco study about, you know, psilocybin and Parkinson's or about, you know, I began as a potential for multiple sclerosis,

their ears perk up. And I think finding a way to bridge the gap and, you know, really I view PSA's audience, we lean into, you know, psychedelic imagery and really trying to, you know, make it both, you know, about the American movement, but also, you know, this is a, these are drugs-related issues. These are drug policy-related issues. But I think that the broader audience should be as many people as possible. And that messaging should be tailored not to betray or, you know, take away from the pioneers of the underground and those who are really embedded in traditional psychedelic culture, but rather as an homage to be able to bridge. the gap and make people understand how important that era and also its consistency and persistence in today's Renaissance really are to maintaining the values of what the psychedelic revolution aimed to be in its first iteration. So yeah. Yeah. Jack, I know you've got to jump out in a little bit, man. You want to take a few minutes just to tell people where they can find you,

what you got coming up? Yeah, I have to jump because we have our last psychedelic playhouse, like I guess run of show meeting. I'm actually a little bit late. Apologies. But yeah, you could find my work pretty much anywhere online. Segular States of America on Substack. We're hoping to kind of revamp and have our live streams streamed there.

And we really mean the world to me. If anybody watching could go subscribe to Psychial Cates America on YouTube, follow us on all platforms, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. You could find my work in outlets such as Double Blind, Filter Magazine, Marijuana Moment, Psychiolk, Alpha. talking joints memo, a number of others. Lucid News. We've got a really great PSA column series

where we're kind of tying in the information we've gathered from our live stream interviews to really tell the most full-threaded story about the state of secular community and advocacy in each state that we touch on. So I don't think that's really something a lot of folks are doing. When we go down to Texas and we talk to the advocates, we also interview Justin LaPrie,

founder of the Illuminating Collective just outside of Austin and find out just by chance that they're hosting, you know, the first ever Ibegain ceremony on U.S. soil later this summer. And that's happening, just, you know, a couple of miles up the road from the State House where they're ponying up 50 mil. So I don't think that you'll find coverage in the Wall Street Journal of the Washington Post of the New York Times that goes the extra mile and weaves in who in these communities is really, you know, doing the work, even beyond the political advocacy that, you know, makes the splashy headline because they get the big funding. So all that said, so thankful for you, George. So

thankful for you, Alex, and anybody who's tuning in at 1 o'clock Eastern on a Tuesday. But I'll see you guys next week in Denver. I put some information in the public comments, but use code PWG10 for 10% off your secular playhouse ticket if you'd like. We hope to see you there. We'll be continued, folks. All right, Jack. Thanks for your time today, man.

I appreciate it. Sir. See, Jack. Alex, you had dropped some bombs there about language and meaning, and I really see it in the pieces that you do. I'm curious though, how much of like that information comes from being at a place where you have to do the work on yourself. It seems to me the message that's resonating with people. And I think a big part of the reason why your message and so many other people's messages resonating is because you've gone through the dark, man. You've sat in the dark.

You've figured out, I can't do this without anything else. And then you've found these plant medicines. You've found, you know, these different kinds of therapies that were able to do that. Is that something that needs to happen for people to sort of take up this medicine? Is that part, is the seeking part of it? Is going through like that whole period a really important thing or a necessary part of creating stuff in this world? Not only that, but understanding the language. We spoke about language and you spoke about the book, The Ethics of Carrying. Maybe you can't understand that language until you've really been through something that's so personal and so deep that you,

you don't know how to get out of it. That's maybe, uh, maybe. I, I think, I think what, what I feel is true is I think that, um, for me, uh, the bad experience, right, like put me and, uh, helped me understand, uh, how to most accurately, like, talk as myself, right? I think like when, uh, you know, that's kind of part of getting out of your own personal maze, at least for me is like finding like, what it, feels like to be like uniquely you right because if you don't like feel that's a feeling that's

for me it's it's it's really kind of an emotional awareness or an emotional intelligence where you're like you become aware of like what feelings feel like they are from your heart right and and where and where you are coming from when you're when you're saying something and that and that impulse is always to be, for me, to be precise and detailed with how I communicate. That's my, that's how I feel the calling, right? Because I, and so that is when you are precise and unique about that, that, that just is like particular language. That is unique language to you, right?

And I think that there's this, communication is tough. Right? Because you have to use some, some, some, that you know, jargon exists within industries for a reason, because it's shorthand for things that are otherwise very difficult to communicate, right? But jargon ceases to be shorthand and becomes a barrier whenever the audience,

the intended audience shifts from people within the industry to people outside the industry. And I think that within, academics, like any other like space of knowledge in any other community, right, it's developed its own lexicon, which is awesome, right? And facilitates just more efficient communication, right? When you say, you know, someone held space for me, I was sat by this person, that all these kinds of things, you know exactly what, what they're saying. That's awesome. But when we're, when we're attempting to explain what's going on in like this you know whole weird world

whatever it is outside right and if and if we don't i think uh at least for me right if i don't do the work of really trying to find the the way i can express it you know as me in a way that any anyone who hadn't experienced my experiences would understand, then then that just adds that bit of friction right that that that are the kind of deciding points of someone understanding or not understanding accepting or not or not accepting or part of the deciding points right choice is always in in in in the picture right but that that that is what like that is what i feel personally that i'm really trying to do right? And it's very difficult because the language that has been developed, it's been developed for a reason. A lot of it's really good, right? It's like,

how do you describe some of the stuff and the feelings that you have in your body? But using terms like energy and all this kind of, like, how do you even describe that when like every, you know, follicle on your body like in a wave like, like, and that's, that's a description, but it's also really long, right? So it's like, it's like, it's like, it. It's like, it. It's like, It makes sense, right? That it's so hard. But I think one of the strategies that I'm trying to look at is like, okay, what, from a communication standpoint, right? It's like, okay, what language do most people find, like, readily, like acceptable?

And why, right? And something that came to my mind are readily digestible. Like, they get it, I get it, you know, and why. And something that's come to me as I thought to this, right, is honestly science, right? And why? Why? Because, you know, this is not true across science, but you got to give scientists their freaking do, right? They've done a lot of work to like clearly define what things mean, make it concrete, attach it to like causes and effects in the world and like illustrations and all that kind of stuff, The stuff that makes language powerful is that detail, is the ability to cause someone to, like,

create a mental image or that a thing related to a thing like that connection is like part of the theater of their own mind, right? Like that is what makes, I think it was a big part of what makes communication powerful, is that connection and that connection to reality, right, to known reality, right? And that's what scientists have done in. It's amazing, right? And so much of the language around science has that feeling of weight to it because of the work that they have done to, like, create the language that has that level of impact, right? And it has been used throughout society and other contexts, right, because of that effectiveness.

Because people, and so that's something like I'm trying to learn from. Not it doesn't mean just like I take science words and use them, right? But it's also like, how can how can I say this with the same level of discipline, right? And focusing on detail. That's that, like that, that is just how, that's my theory. That's my hypothesis, rather. My hypothesis of like one way that I'm hoping to be able to create less barriers and bring more people into at least understanding or making their own judgments about what this is about versus making

their judgments before they even get to understand what this about because there's a bit of a barrier there, right? And that barrier being just like a set of words that they don't understand yet. And like I said, the development of that stuff, these stuff make total sense. It's absolutely a necessary part of any industry, any craft, any community, right? But, um, But when there's a movement, right, to try to like create, like broaden those horizons, right, create a bigger community, a bigger conversation, content that resonates across more people, then I think you got to think about things a little differently, right? And I, and from what little I understand, right? And from my perspective, that kind of feels like the place we're in right now, it kind of feels like, yeah, it is, it is time. and we can you know we've seen we've seen um because just people really really do like care about

and can't there's nothing you know unique about the people within a psychedelic world we're we all are human and we all like want this i don't i'm just going to say it we always want to connect to what we think is the divine i think yeah i think most people want like the the spiritual and the the cosmic and the connection to self that are things that happen in psychedelics are like a thing that everyone wants, I think. I think everyone wants it. So if that's the case, right, if this is like a human thing, then, and everyone wants this, right, then that's amazing news.

That's incredible news, right? That means to be brutally business, the Tam is 100%. right the total addressable market is all of is everybody right so if that's a case then then then then uh then what are the barriers to that right and and to and to me if if we both have the same like desire then it's the thing that that passes between us that that's a big part of it right that's that's just packaging right that's just that's just words and images and all that kind of stuff and uh that doesn't mean, I'm not advocating for like, what's the word? Compromise. I'm not for compromise on values. I think this kind of leads into a whole conversation of like, how do you communicate in a way that's

authentic, like in a way that connects and it's authentic, way to connect, sorry, without compromising too much, where you feel like you're losing some of your values or you're not. like really being true to your own community. That's that that that that is part of it. That is definitely a challenge, right? But but I don't know that that's the the main barrier or just the only barrier. I'd say the other piece of it is for me. Like I said, something I'm working on is a communication piece. Man, it's such a it's thank you for that. It speaks to the heart of not only communication but language. And I can't I got to think that the evolution of language comes from intention.

And I think for a long time, we just have gone down this road of if the intent of something is to make lots of money, you always get away from the very thing you're trying to do, like a product or a service that is built on the intention of making lots of money. I think it was Steve Jobs in his book. He talked about the reason why large corporations fail when they get so big is because the visionary or the founding understanding of, of what that product and service is supposed to be. Like that part leaves and it's moved to the sales team. And the only thing that moves the needle is the sales team. And so you get this jargon, you get these strategies and you get this push towards getting your project service out there and kind of lose the very foundation of what you were doing.

Maybe that's what psychedelics are doing is they're bringing us back to this idea of, okay, what are you trying to express? Because that's what's going to connect with people. What are your thoughts on that? Bro. So true. Right? So true. There's so many things we can talk about here. Okay.

Okay. This is my thoughts, you know. So I think it seems to me largely a rift. There's a rift in a cultural rift between like the psychedelic world and the Silicon Valley world, shall we say, even though people are part of both of those things. They're hand in hand. So I think there are reasons why because of the kinds of things exactly like you said, right? Like things can get twisted. Pressure can distort you, right? Especially revenue pressure. Revenue pressure can distort you for sure.

I mean, all sorts of things can distort you. Yeah, of course. But pressure can distort you. And so I think there's, For me, also personally, I kind of think they're both cool. I kind of think they're both awesome. Like I, the reason why the death, the true debt that I owe psychedelic experiences, George, is connecting to that that purpose within me. And like, and like, not that it wasn't there before, it's just the signal was quite staticy.

Yeah. And through a lot of through a lot of through through psychedelic therapy, through a lot of everyday sit, like that signal became a lot stronger. And I owe a great debt of gratitude to psychedelics for that. I really do. I really do. You know? And I feel and when I, when I meet other people and that have had similar experiences and that feel the same way, we're like, hell yeah, brother. Hell yes, sister.

Like you, you see it, right? You see it. So I love that aspect of psychedelics very, very much, right? On the other side, business has changed my life in a very positive way. And that's just because I had a, it's, I have a propensity to like be in my head in the realm of ideas. and ideals, right? And one of the most wonderful things about business is that to some degree, to no small degree, and maybe more than most things, right, maybe more than most things, everything has this corruption, maybe more than most things, right? You kind of have to really

solve problems. You kind of really do. There's manipulation, there's lies, yada, yada. But there's also like how much money do you have in the bank? And, and that's, and look, we, and we can talk and money has, you know, money has a concept, has all this kind of stuff. But, but, but really and truly, there is a groundedness to that, right? And there is a spirituality to the banality and mundanity of business that is kind of incredible. Like, when I do a marketing campaign, and I just like, look at how many people signed up for a thing, that number of people, people signed up for a thing. And I could lie about it and try to manage upward, but I will just be unsuccessful, right? I will just be unsuccessful. At least that's my, this has been my experience,

right? But if I look at it and I'm like, oh, shit, I did not do what I wanted to do. I've got to, I've got to actually do some hard thinking and really try to find the solution. And I've had some some most incredible experiences of my life, George, have been looking at numbers, right? And honestly, opening myself up psychologically, like, okay, what's the answer, right? In that state of openness that makes psychedelics so, like, incredible, right? Like, teaches you, this is what it feels. I've done this, right, in doing business stuff, right,

where I'm like, what is the answer to this question? I'm opening myself up to the answer to honestly, right? And then I find the answer. I'm like, holy shit. I was just, that was like an act of like true openness. And I like finally answer. And like this may be a marketing campaign for something that may seem completely ridiculously outside.

I don't know. But all I can tell you is that has taught me honesty and integrity in so many ways. Right. And so look, it can't like, can it be polluted? can it be messed up? Can the pressure? All these things are 100% true. But to be honest with you, that's totally true of psychedelics and in spiritual communities as well, right? Like those things can become totally distorted because you know, because you can be too much in the realm of the psyche and not as much in like the dirt of stuff, right? And so for me, there's like this amazing set of skills that people in business have developed.

That's essentially like the Navy SEALs of intellectual rigor. And also there's an emotional maturity component too to like being able to freaking hold the line. Right. Like, no, I'm going to try to figure out how to make this idea real. And that's incredible. Right. I'm not saying I'm great at it. I'm okay at best.

but but getting to is from zero to okay has been like holy shit that's like a transfer so i really respect that right and this has its pitfalls and there are people that have spiritual courage legit like stanza's long groff that guy that's is like crazy right like like to take that much lcd and not live in a world where really anyone knew what the fuck was going to happen if you surrender to the universe in like a giant else and he was like yeah I want to know what happens like brother what is that right so like what is that level of like existential courage I don't know maybe I possess it I hope I do but I have not discovered that in myself that level in myself yet right so I have total respect for this too and I think these two things can work together they both

have their pitfalls right and I kind of see that as like kind of what's happening and what You know, like these few things need to work together because I think the psychedelic world and many people in this psychological world, there's a lot to be learned from this. I certainly have. And there's a lot to be learned. It's the purpose, right? The fucking arrow. The arrow of the quiver is here, right? It's in the spirit.

You can't find it on a spreadsheet. It's in your spirit. It's in your spirit. Right? And so like, and so that that's such a gift here. And I kind of see these things coming together where in the 60s, there was such a corporate versus, and that was maybe a necessary part. It was like a necessary breakup, right? Like these two things couldn't ever possibly figure each other out.

Now we're coming around here. And some founders, they're talking about their whole business journey as if it were a spiritual path. Maybe it is. right and we're seeing people in the psychedelic world that are just that have just insane business chops right and are just i met amy emerson at uh i met amy emerson the former uh uh uh uh CEO of uh leichos i like shook her hand look i'm a fan fan boy here whatever i like listen to her and the rest of the maps crew talk i was to be honest with you i was blown away i was blown away these guys were like the spiritual ninjas that I feel like that I'm referring to and that kind of I I aspire to be you can you can

feel it you could feel their strength and you could feel their groundedness in the shit that they have done because they they've been to the mountaintop and then they've walked down and they walked up another and it's like they've been and you know like and like meeting amy i was like golly like listen to her talk i was like this woman is such a powerhouse is so powerful right it's incredible to me And I have so much respect for that and so much admiration. And I'll just see right now. And I know I'm talking a lot. I'm probably many things that can be cooking.

Thanks, man. Thank you. I just feel like I see there's online. There is judgment about these things. And fair enough, right? It's like, you know, you guys are Yahoo's. Like you guys are just greedy. It's like, fair enough.

Fair enough. There aren't there aren't completely unjustified. criticisms, but that's not all, but that's not all, right? And, and I think, like, you know, putting them together, you can make something special. It's going to be treacherous, right? Because when you bring the psychedelic and the spiritual into kind of like the businessy corporate world, right, you're going to feel the reckoning pressure. You're going to feel the pressure, right? And you're going to have a sales team. And you're going to learn sales tactics. And you're going to have to decide, right? You're going to have to decide. And am I going to,

to what is this sales topic manipulative or is it no or is it just persuasive what is that what is that what is that line and finding that line and being willing to like tread that path like to me is like the whole point like that's that is maturing right i'm trying i'm trying to push myself to do that all the time I'm trying to push myself to it all the time. I can't get around trying to try to like grow the discretion that's required to like really bring stuff into the world. And I'm just going to make mistakes. And that is terrifying to me, right? Because the mistakes are consequential.

And when we think about the psychedelic world, whether it's spiritual, if it's a spiritual thing, if it's a mental health thing, whatever it is, people's kind of spirits are are a little bit on the line here. So being willing to tread that that path, like to make that call is a little different than that and like accounting software. Right. So it's a little different. But hell, if we do, you know, if we really feel that the people that have had these experiences, if we really feel like we're being called to bring this into the world.

And what I mean for me is it's not about advocacy for me. It's more about information. But if we feel called to bring this into the world, I feel like that line's unavoidable. And we just have to be willing to do it because that's the cost. That's the risk rather of doing business. What I mean is like of doing it. Man, that was really well said, Alex. I admire that.

There's something to be said about, you know, both things are true. Both of these things are true. How do you navigate that space in between them? Maybe that's what's happened in psychedelic science and a psychedelic playhouse and all these sort of community events that are coming up is that the same way mycelium formed. It's like, okay, I can work here. I can't. Like, where is the balance and where does the fruit come out from it? It blows my mind to see those things coming together in a way that is necessary. Because I don't, if they don't come together, then you just see psychedelics move back into the underground where it's always been, it's always thrived. And I don't know, is it possible for psychedelics to be above board? It seems like there's so much that is, you know, like you see it kind of burgeon, the same way a mushroom comes from the ground.

All of a sudden this fruit comes up, but then it decays. Is it just a cycle, do you think? Is it possible to have this sort of spiritual medicine above board and stay above board? What does your heart tell you, George? My heart tells me no. My heart tells me that. And here's why. Like, I see it as cycles.

And I look back at the 60s and the times before. And I see that the medicine grows underground. And it finds the people it needs to find and it helps them. And that comes from the people seeking and desperately looking for. for it. But when I, when I talk about cycles, I think about a flower. Like, it blooms and it's beautiful, and it's fragrant, and everyone wants to come and be a part of it. But then, you know, we've learned what we can from that flower and it dies. At least the flower stops and it doesn't bloom anymore. And then it goes back underground until the next season when it's really needed. And I see that that's

where we are as like a world right. Like, we need that flower. We need it more than ever. We need to see its beauty. We need to smell its fragrance. We need to be around it to be inspired. But it's not, it's not going to be in season forever. And it's going to be the greed and the selfishness. And it's just going to be the humans. You know, I'm not putting it on any on business or the underground, but I'm just saying as human nature, like things like this that change our awareness for long periods of time don't last. And they go back. And so I'm not trying to like shit on the whole thing that's going to happen. Like I want it to happen. I was like, I want it more than ever to be something that's tangible for everybody to get.

But I just don't think that's the way the world works. And I don't think it can be for everybody. As much as I want everyone in the world of mental health to try this because it worked for me. Like it helped me get through some of the darkest times in my life. And I want other people to get to have that. But I don't think you get to have it without the courage for going and looking for it. And when it's made readily available, all of a sudden you get Iboga microdoses at gas stations. and you get this four ACOs and these different chemicals that are psilocybin but not psilocybin

and you get next thing you know art link letter's daughter is jumping out of a window man is that too dark of like i didn't mean to like drop that bomb on there like i see it that way George i really appreciate it and you might be right and you really might be right you know I feel like it's my calling to try right to try to try to try to try to do what I can and I and I think you know, but something happens when those cycles happen, right? It's like something happens with those cycles. Like a cycle is not always a return to baseline.

No, it's a spiral upwards. Yeah, can set a new baseline, right? So I think, you know, you can feel like it. It can sure as hell feel like it. But if my personal experience, personal experiences, like, like one that i had or anything yes you know if if if if if the if the meta people if the meta person is anything like the individual right there yes then then then then then then then we advance

and we retreat but it's like two steps forward and one back and so you know that then then if that's true right then it's uh i'm responsible to do everything i can yeah to to make it blown yeah like i'm i'm the one that's and everything I can personally, right? And I've just started, right? The, I will, I, it's so hard to do anything in this world. It's kind of insane.

It totally is. It totally is, man. Something that blows my mind is relative to how, at least, at least in, in this kind of like relatively comfortable, like, world that I, that I, that I've lived in. I mean,

had a bunch of stuff. But I don't think I was ever in danger of starving. So like survival survival and from from zero to one is like such an insane jump. To do anything is so hard. And all that and I've just begun what I feel like is this purposeful journey into this world. And and all I can say is that I am blown away that people have, I am flabbered. Yeah. That people have done this as long as they have done this. Like with the pressure and the scrutiny and a criticism that they have, right? That blows my mind.

Yeah. And they built things. Yeah. Right? Like all the people that have built things in the psychedelic world actually built things. That's heroic shit. Yeah. It really is because you have, you had every reason not to.

reason not to. But, you know, something that's cool about nature and something that's cool about the way it seems to work is that the counterforce proves the force. You know, it's like the yeah, of course. The amount of, of resistance and yet it survives, you know, I think it really shows the quality and the spirit of what's underneath. And that's worth selling. celebrating and honoring and I sure I sure as hell I sure is how respected yeah I don't think you can get the true beauty of building things without that resistance and maybe that's where the spirit comes in because everybody who's whether it's in psychedelics or in business or in relationships like if you don't force that level of resistance where you you lose everything or you

have the at least perceived threat of losing everything then you really don't know what you're capable of. And like, that brings me back to the idea we spoke about earlier when people hit rock bottom. Like, man, if you're at rock bottom, you have the opportunity to have the biggest character arc ever in your life. But, like, that's where the power comes from. Like, that's where the spirit comes from. It's like, when you don't have anything left and you tell yourself, I have everything I need, watch out for that person. Because that person has nothing left to lose. And they're going to follow their heart in a way that someone that has comfort never will. And I think that for me is one thing about psychedelics that it is given to me.

And so many people I talk to is when you got nothing left, you find yourself all alone with yourself. And psychedelics really help you bring out the language of what that means. It helps you understand the awareness around you of like, okay, I don't, I've lost my identity. I've lost my relationships. I've lost all these things. but I'm still here. And I think psychedelics makes you okay with that. We're in general society.

Society tells you don't have anything. You're nothing. You don't have money. You don't have this. And you get stuck in that negative feedback loop. And we get back to the language of psychedelics and the ethics of caring. And I think that that's where the language comes from on some level, right? Do you feel that same awareness with your relationship with psychedelics and the resistance?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally, totally. You know, yeah. And, right? It actually reminds me, I wonder what, Sam Oatman, Sam Oatman, the CEO of Open AI. Yeah.

He says, he says, there's something that I wish I could give young founders that they can't accept their experience. And that is living through an event that should kill your company. It's the same thing. Right? It's like, oh, it's going to end. It's going to end. This is it.

This is it. And like the experience of living through that crisis and over and over again, personal, professional, whatever it is. It just gives me a different sense of what's really at risk. I'm not going to die. I'm going to feel like I'm going to die. But I'm not going to die. And I'm made of stuff that I didn't know that I was made of. Which I want to ask you a question, George.

Okay. about about about about psychedelic media uh you're quite uh your output is incredible um and it and i don't know you know i i don't i can only assume a constant passion um and love and so my question to you is like how do you how do you you've been it for a while now and you've been like banging the drum and and trying to like connect with all these other people and it's like all this stuff right so like what are what are your lessons how are you doing it where is your motivation coming from what is what is your ritual like what's where's it from man it's selfish in some ways like i i want more than anything to be a footnote in a positive change in the world and

I've sacrificed my time. I've asked my family to sacrifice. Like the other day, I put out 247 shorts on three platforms in like two days. And it was just it's just nonstop. Like I want my message to get out there, not for me to be out there, but to highlight all of the beauty that's out there for people that find themselves wrecked because I'm wrecked. Like I was escorted out by security. two years ago because as a UPS driver and like I lost everything in my mind I lost everything lost all my money I lost my house I had this podcast thing going and for me

it's it is an exercise in what is possible you know but it does it's it's a huge sacrifice I've asked I sacrifice I've asked my family to sacrifice you know I I I pick up some jobs here and there. I was looking at the Boys and Girls Club. But in my heart, like, it's almost obsessive for me. Like, I have to get out. I want the message to be out there on some level, because I believe there's many people like me. And if I can help someone that was like me five years ago get to a better spot, then I feel vindicated for the life that I'm living. So my output is a direct relationship to the brokenness of which I felt. And I, on some level, the, the, the, the media, the messaging, the conversations that I'm having with people, they're all so therapeutic for me.

And if just one person watches my podcast and I get some really cool comments from people that are like, Hey, George, thank you. Thank you. I talked to Dr. X, who's a young creator about two years ago, this guy called me up and he's like, I called him back and he's like, George, why are you talking to me? I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, you got this cool YouTube channel, man. You talk to all these cool people because I have five subscribers. man why on earth would you even take my call and i talked to this guy for like a couple hours now he's a good friend of mine and like he's doing awesome like his content is so cool and i got to help be a part of this person's journey and like there's nothing more rewarding than that than getting

to be part of the solution for me and like that's why i put out so much content and it's a struggle though because how much time do you're going to put out making content versus with your family where do you draw that line. And I can resonate with some of the CEOs that I have that come on that are just obsessive about their business. Like they want it to work in a way that will provide for them and their family. But beyond that, they want their vision to be true. I'm like, I see that in myself. I see it in your writings, Alex. I see the passion that you put into like the walk-in talks or the articles that you put up. And I'm like, oh my God, how long did he have to think about that before he worded it that way? And like when I get to talk to you now, like I get to, I get to be part of

this incredible mycelium web of like, oh my God, I understand why you're putting out that message. And the more that I sit and do the podcast, the more that I learn. I feel like this is a better form of education than I've ever gotten my life. I get to talk directly to the people that I'm fascinated by. And I want to be part of the future where our kids have a better life, where psychedelics can play a role in people's life. And if I can help people source things in an ethical way or in a way that's meaningful, Like I'm making real difference in people's lives.

And if it's a handful of them, so be it. If it's thousands of them, so be it. But that's where my output comes from. It comes from loss and sacrifice and a need to want the world to be better, man. Does that answer your question? It does. I have another question now. So, but, you know, you put all this work into scheduling and creating and networking and whatever.

right and sort of you know a non a non zero amount of this doesn't work at all and a non zero amount of that doesn't work at all like you will legitimately like bled for right and then and then i think the thing and i think the thing that that stops that can stop me at least for a moment or like really make me feel like shit is that experience and to me what it can feel like is like, you know, trying to, when something that you do is part of your dream and it fails, it's different. It's different than something that you don't feel like is your dream. Because it's not like a thing failed. It's like you failed. Yeah, totally. Your deepest call, your heart is being rejected by reality.

And that's a wild thing. And when and when and when and this is one of things that, you know, I had to think about for a while and feel through a while, right? It was like when, when I decided to really take one of my first biggest steps to going all in, it was like if this fails though, right?

If this, if I'm never able to get off. You know, you can say this is illusion or not illusion, whatever. All I'm telling you is something that was going to, point in my head, right? If this fails, though, then I will know. It kind of feels like my soul failed. My mission failed. I failed myself. I failed at being myself. Right. And that is a, that is,

a constant part of like the unknown. Yeah. The terror of the unknown that sits in front of you as someone who is trying to live by purpose. Yeah. So my. My question is, like, how do you experience that and move through that? A lot of psychedelics, I think, is a good way to move through it. But I think you have to change your relationship to what failure is. You know, like, and what does it mean when you say, like, your soul failed or your heart failed? Like I don't think that's possible. I think that maybe we're part of something bigger and when you just look at it like winning or failing like that is it's too of a two binary of an answer because maybe the win is a pivot for me in this like I didn't know what to expect when I started the podcast. I had no idea. It was just me talking to myself and then it it turned in like every time Alex this is the miracle of spirit every time I'm like this is it I can't do it anymore. A miracle happens. A fucking miracle happens. man and I can do it longer.

Can you tell me about a miracle? Yeah. Yeah. So when I, let me think about a good one. Okay. So there was a period about a year ago when I almost stopped my podcast. And I'm like, I have to, I got to find a job. I have to bring in money for my family.

I'm being totally irresponsible and I'm being selfish and greedy. Yeah. I got I have to maybe I can find another way to do it and I was working at the boys and girls and I got a job with the boys and girls though I loved it man it was so rewarding But part of my heart was like I just could I should be podcasting I should be getting the message out like and I love doing it And then my wife got cancer I quit my job And I had these really incredible conversations with my wife about like like I had to find like at that point in time it was how do I get my kid to school? How do I care for my wife and how do I bring in money?

My wife had a part-time job and it's like I can't there's no way I can work full-time be at the hospital twice a week take my kid to school make lunches and do all the things I'm supposed to do as a father do homework talk to my wife and like I broke down. I'm like this is the fucking worst thing that's ever happened to me and it just keeps getting worse and worse. But when that, and it's weird to say that my wife getting cancer is a miracle. But because that happened, I've had the most incredible conversations with my wife. Like all these things that I thought were important fell away. And in the meantime, while my daughter's at school for like three, for four hours, taking care of my wife, I haven't like four more hours to do a podcast. And it's like, I have this time. Maybe the world wants, maybe the world is finding a way for me.

You know, and as that's coming to a close, I just got a call from, like, I have a court case against UPS. And I'm like for two years of wrongful termination in my opinion. And I just got a call yesterday like, hey, we're ready to settle. And it's like, okay. You know, and so every time, like I think I can't do this anymore, something comes up and I find a way. And I think that that finding away is the miracle. It's what we talked about earlier about being in despair and being in the dumps and like, a miracle happens. Maybe you're the miracle. Maybe I'm the miracle. Maybe the spirit's the miracle.

But like, I think that you'll find a way. And if that means pivoting from messaging, whether it's the Alex experience or the True Life podcast, like I don't think it ever fails. I think it changes and morphs and evolves into something more powerful. Maybe the podcast turns into doing marketing for one of these people that I'm talking to or helping people build brands, you know but the podcast alone has been something that has has taught me all about communication and skills and now i have on my resume like the resume of the future i think is going to be what have you built online and in these few years i've been doing this is like let me show you what i've done online let me show you this campaign for the feat program let me tell you how i help people move from addiction

into raising money for themselves let me reach out to some of my friends like alex let me reach out to these people like i i don't think it's i don't think it's failing i think it's growth going. Yeah. That's a roundabout way. No, no, no. Um, I, uh, so how do you tell the difference between, um, you made a really good point. You made a really good point. They like, uh, earlier, you're like, you know, at least how I was visualizing it was like, yeah, yeah, was like, you saying like, hey, I'm, you're, you're, zoom out, right? You're, you know, you, this, you know, thing that you spent months on trying to make amazing and, you know, it seemed to have no impact, right, is actually part of like this gigantic, gigantic movement with all these ripples, right?

And you could be on the dip and someone else on the wave, but you're all contributing to the motion, right? Like, yeah, that's, that's fair, right? But there's this tension. There's those tension and I think you have to solve as someone who's doing this between, like, is what I'm doing that I feel like that is from my heart with this particular thing, or I'm doing it all the way, do I accept the results as just, or try to like ignore the results and go with what I feel like is my heart, or do I pivot because the results tell me that. that I'm off about what I think is true about the world and what I think is true about myself, right? Like where is pivoting compromising on your purpose and where is pivoting actually in the process of finding it?

And that's a difficult question, I think, to answer, especially if you really feel like you've put your full heart into everything. Sometimes you're wrong. And it's so hard to find that. Totally. It's so hard to find that. There was this, and it reminds me of this, I had this psychedelic experience. Okay.

In which I was like, I was asking myself a question. I was like, how is it that, how is it that, you know, I developed such a trust in MDMA therapy specifically. It had just taught me through so many things at this point. And I was like, and I was really starting to put the pieces together. You know, things came up. I apply in life. Things come up and apply in life.

But because of that, I kind of began to look at MDMA therapy and my experiences at that as like my one source of truth. And so I asked this question of myself, I was like, look, why didn't you, me, whatever, the inner wisdom, whatever. I was like, why didn't you tell me about. this other piece of advice that i got from like watching some of youtube video i forgot what it was i got from elsewhere but i was like it would have been really useful uh why didn't you why don't you tell me and the response that i got i thought was a deflection at the time or some kind of i wasn't really sure how to take it but this is a response that i got god isn't everything god is in everything and so i think i think uh that's that's where i feel like i am personally

And that's why I think I'm also, like I'm asking you the question I'm asking you right now, right? It's like we always, you know, I think we taught in this world, we can talk about how the truth is inside of us. And that's, I think that's true, right? But the truth is also outside of us. And it's a skill to learn how to find the truth inside. And it's such a skill to learn the truth outside. And I think we can run to one or the other as a place of safety. I know how to find it out here, but then I abandoned myself and here.

And I know how to find it in here, but I don't know about there. But I think the truth is that you find it, but putting them both together. That there are two halves of this equation. And that's how you find your way, at least for me, at least, at least for me, you know. And for me, this whole thing of starting to actually live my purpose, is the sense that, like, not that I have so much more to grow in here, the sense that the next step in the growth out here is going to come through doing the things out here.

Because I'm going to make mistakes and do stuff that's going to bring up stuff that's going to cause me to have all kinds of, what's the term? Crisis of faith. Crisis of faith, right? And the beauty of a crisis of faith is that it's, It's a filter and it's the means of maturing. That's what I think.

It's like when you feel like you want to give up and you're able to break through, then you realize, then you realize that really all you were doing was changing the model. You just changed the model. Your model was small and you needed to break out. It's a moment of transformation. It's a death. It's a death of a model. And so it feels like that.

it feels like your world is coming to an end because your world is coming to an end and it must come to an end and and and but it has all that attendant feelings of existential awesfulness right because i thought this came from my heart didn't this come this vision come from my heart and maybe it did a lot of times it did but it was wrapped in your mind right it was wrapped by it I'd be understood and metabolized by your intellect. Yeah. And that means there's going to be errors. And also, your heart is providing inspiration,

but the actualization in that process is finding what a thing is. And finding who, I think finding who you are. Right. So that's, this is me, right? Once again, my own path, the things that I've gone through. But really where I am with this, right? And I find it be beautiful, man. I've been to it's agonizing to kind of like to create and try with all your heart and and feel like uh and feel and feel that

you uh and feel that death right but uh there's this quote that um uh gosh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah give me give me Give me a second. Give me just a second. The quote is so good. It'll take me. Okay. Jen, Rubite, thank you so much. Like, it's such a beautiful, she says, Alex, thank you so much for shifting the lens on George

so we could learn a bit about the behind scenes of the Y. What a brilliant, incredible soul. We're lucky to have him in our tribe. Jen, thank you very much. I'm looking forward to hanging out with you and seeing you soon. And Jen's got her own podcast. She's starting up pretty soon. And I can't wait to be a guest on her podcast because I think that her life story encompasses so much of what we've been talking about today.

You know, there's so many awesome comments that are coming up as you look for that quote right there. Did you find it over there? All right. I'm going to paraphrase it, bro. Yeah, do it. Um, it, it, uh, it goes like this. It's like, it's like the person that's truly on the path. Um, they have like a chance, uh, to like compromise or whatever.

Yes. And here's the point. The point is, but this person, the person realizes that it is only through, like, giving themselves up to destruction over and over again, that the indestructible rises from within us. And like, exactly what you said earlier, right? It's like, it's only through this kind of crisis of crisis, crisis, crisis of crisis. Yeah.

process of crisis that you realize what you're really made of, you know? Yeah. And that and that process is I think for me as without as it is as it is within. We're here to be broken. And when you can wrap your mind around that, you know, it makes things easier. Like I, all of us, and I can only speak through my lens of experience, but I've seen a lot of different traumas from people in my family. I've had multiple people in my immediate family try to commit suicide.

I had some horrible things happened to me when I was a kid. My son died. I lost everything at the age of 47. My wife has cancer. And I look back in some of these times and only recently, only when I've reached about the age of 50. And with the help of psychedelics, I realized that every time I was broken and shattered and my heart destroyed, I got the opportunity to become a better version of myself. And as I'm getting older, I'm realizing that that's what life is.

is life is a series of being broken so that you can grow to a new state and the same way we talked about those cycles of the flower blooming or maybe a deciduous tree is a good analogy it dies all the leaves fall off and it's sad and the blooms go away and the fragrance goes away and then all of a sudden it grows taller and there's more leaves and then it dies again and then it grows again and that's what we are I don't think you come into this world I think you come out of it and if we can look to nature as our teachers and listen to the plants what they're telling us and the trees and the birds, you are going to die many times in your life. When will you be okay with it? When will you learn the lessons of dying before you die? And for some of us, we never learn. Some of us, you have to be 50 years old before you learn. But what if someone in their 40s could do it or 30s could do it? You know, how much more of a fulfilling and purposeful life? These things, all these things you're talking about, Alex, about living purposefully, finding meaning. Like, that is a sign of someone who has died to their older selves. That is someone who's listening to their inner ancestors. The Alex that couldn't

do what you're doing now, he's not someone to be shamed. He's someone to be celebrated because he wanted to do them. The heart that you had before wanted to be where you are now, and now you are. So people should look back at these versions of themselves that maybe they have discussed for and realize they're the only reason that they are who they are now. And that takes away the shame. It takes away the guilt. And you learn the lesson you're here to be broken. And the more times you break, the better.

Because that means you're growing and you're finding ways to become who you're supposed to be. That's the lessons that I have learned in life. And that's what I, if I could share that with more people, man, you're here to be broken. And it's hard. It's painful. There's tears. And the bigger the break, the more opportunity for growth. I can't say it enough, man.

Ben, it said, uh, thank you, George. I think, thank you for what you just said. Uh, thank you for doing what you do. Thank you for doing what you do, man. You're going to cry over here. Dog, I don't, you know, I, uh, you, I hope you keep doing it. I'll always find a way, man. Fuck yeah.

And, fuck yeah. I hope we keep doing it, man. Yeah. Yeah. You too, man. And Jen and Kat and everybody on here, man. Like, we're all doing. And here's another thing when you were talking, like, who are you to judge what success is?

Who are you to judge your actions, Alex? Do you think you know what the big plan is? One person reads your stuff. 10 people, 1,000 people. Who cares, man? You are not in a position to judge what your actions are actual. doing in the large scope of things. Your words can reach people you may,

the fact is the person you change the most, you'll never know. You'll never know who they are. You'll never know how your words hit them, but your story will hit them. You could be an inspiration for some kid halfway across the world, man. And that's the bigger picture. Like that is understanding purpose

and meaning is that you don't get to judge what the purpose is. You don't get to judge what the meaning is. You follow your heart and you play the role. And the message will get out to the people that it needs to get out to. And like that's my infatuation with the underground is like you're playing a role. You're doing it right now. I've had some long talks with people. Matt Ritchie and I were talking about stuff and I was saying some things and he's like, you don't get it, George, you're doing it right now.

And that really hit home for me. I'm like, oh shit, like we're doing it right now, all of this going out. So when you start thinking like, well, maybe I'm not living my higher purpose or maybe I need to look at this truth outside of me, it's not for you to judge. It's not for you to judge. It's not for you to judge or for you to assume you're doing the right thing. Like are you in alignment with what your higher purpose is telling you? And if that answer is, I believe that I am, then that's it. You're on the path, man. It's easy to get off.

It's easy to fall, but it's that inner alignment. It's that idea of like this feels like I'm doing things right. That is being in alignment with who you are and what your mission should be and what your language should be. What you're seeking is seeking you. And you don't get to judge in this lifetime. don't get to understand what you've done. Maybe when we go to the next place, then you get to look back and be like, hey, that was pretty cool or hey, that was pretty fucked up.

But, you know, we don't get to judge it while we're doing it. You can't see the forest through the tree, right? So George, how did you find the feeling? Right? Because I mean, like a lot of people talk about finding their purpose, but it's, but not a lot of people have found it. Right? There's a click there, right? There is a connection there that is real because it has to withstand all kinds of just resistance.

It's wild, the resistance. So how did you find that? What was that like, right? Where did it kind of fit into place? Was it in a psychedelic experience? If it was, what was the, where did it come? Was it a feeling in the body, an image? Right.

And then how did that, like, how did you bring? that into the world. Well, it started by losing everything I loved. And it, you know, I had a relationship with psychedelics recreational when I was younger. But, you know, I had a lot of crisis in my life. Like I said, like stuff that just ripped me down. And I spent, I spent years being depressed and angry and, you know, putting on this face of everything's okay and trying to please people and just trying to find a way to see beauty

in the world. And then later in life, when I rekindled my relationship with psychedelics, primarily uh, FLAD was a huge one for me. You know, I had done like 10 milligrams in less than a year and like it came in crisis and I realized that I was given the medicine after the ordeal and all this shit that didn't make sense to me. Like my son dying, man, my white having fucking cancer and like having conversations about the people you love the most ripped, out of your life, that's where you find purpose. That's where it is. And you can't find it anywhere else. It comes with the tragedies of life that try to kill you. That's where you find purpose. When you have nothing left and you tell yourself, I have everything I need or for me

in a psychedelic journey that came to me, you have everything you need, George. You know, I want to cry right now thinking about it. Like, holy shit, I do. I have everything I need. Even though I lost everything. Like, I didn't need that stuff. These were all crutches. These were all society's tools and society's ideas that were thrust upon me to feel successful, to feel good about myself. And the whole time I was denying who I really am.

And that's where purpose comes from because I can draw on these losing the people in my life that I love the most. They never leave. They may leave this realm, but they never leave you. And that's where purpose comes from. Purpose and meaningfulness comes from understanding that you have everything. thing that you need, regardless of what you lose. In fact, probably the more you lose, the more purpose you can find. Because it's easy to feel good about yourself when money's rolling in. It's easy to feel good about yourself when your relationships well. It's easy to feel good about when you

have. What about when you don't have? What about the person that's addicted to fentanyl who's burned every bridge because they've asked for help and they weren't ready? Like these are the people that are finding purpose in their lives. And we can learn a lot from them. We can learn a lot from the people that have lost everything. And again, that's my affinity to the underground, is that I think the people that are finding these crises, like you went through an ordeal. You went through a huge crisis,

and that's when you found you. It's coming back to yourself that allows you to find purpose. It's coming back to those things that allow you to move forward in a future that's uncertain because you've been through it. And I really think you have to be broken down and lose the most powerful things out there.

Like think about like mythological. that we read or stories or even biographies that you read like it's the person that loses everything is the person that finds that finds everything you know and it's it's it's the hero's journey on so many levels or you know the better one the better one is camy's a camel to the child like if anybody's out there listening and they want to read a really cool myth read Nietzsche's camel to the child like it'll blow your fucking mind and like that's what we're here to do we're here to find out who we are And you can go through life and compromise your values and give away your integrity for a paycheck.

You can do that. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's really hard. For me, I had to have it taken away from me because I was too afraid to do it myself. I had to have everything taken from me because I wouldn't do it myself. And maybe that's part of the lessons of life. Maybe we don't have the courage to take these steps where you lose everything. So life does it for you.

Okay, you're ready. No, I'm not ready. Okay, yep. I'm taking your kid. I'm going to put your wife on the. chopping block how do you feel about that now what are you going to do like these are the things that life is here to teach us man and that's where can i ask you a question yeah man what you got so word i agree but um but the fear can be how do i know that this is truly meant me

discovered my purpose or is this me discovering a narrative in which i can feel like my life has meaning when I have been unable to find it, then I fail to find it the way I ought to find it, right? That I'm just like substituting the game for another game. I'm like throwing away the game board. I'm like, fuck that game. I don't want that game. I never wanted to date her anyway, right?

That's throwing it away. Yeah. So, so how do you tell that you really, that you've, what you're doing is actually, finding your feet in the ground instead of like, you know, in the air and in a different air zone. That's not my question to answer, man. That's your question to answer. Oh, baby. Oh, what an answer, George. I mean, I'll say, for me, it was, I have so much doubt.

I have an insane amount of doubt. Welcome. Yeah, brother. Yeah, for real. I have an insane amount of doubt. But it just, and it's just like, I just have to keep proving it to myself.

Through seeing like myself from the inside out. Seeing myself from the inside of. I'm like, oh, no, I'm actually doing this because I think it's the right thing. And I'm actually willing to buy the bullet on this one. and then seeing it a bunch of times because of, but that, that's, that's how I felt that I have begun to answer such questions. Yeah. There's a cool story. Like I always read these co-ins and stuff, and there's this story about, um, this samurai. And he grew up in a lineage of samurai. And his father was, he, he, he was a samurai for the royal family. And his sword had been passed down from his grandfather to his father. And his father. And, and he, he, he was a samurai for the royal family. And his sword had been passed down from his grandfather to his father. And his father. And, and, and he, the samurai world honor is everything. And so this young samurai, he served his time for the royal family and he's aging.

And he says, you know, he goes and tells the royal family, like, I need to leave for a little while because I need to find out heaven and hell. And the royal family says, okay, there's a monk that lives, you know, five days away in this garden and he can help you. So the samurai gets on his horse and he tells his family goodbye and he takes his beautiful sword with him because it's part of him. And he rides out, way out into the hills. And on day five, he comes up to this cabin.

And there's this monk back there and he's working on the garden. And the samurai walks up to the monk and real respectfully, he's like, oh, your honor, I'm here to find the true meaning of heaven and hell. And the monk just looks at him and doesn't say anything. And the samurai, he's this respected guy, he's used to getting like, he's used to people kind of respecting him a little bit. And the monk says, he just looks at him and waves him off. And the samurai is like, I know your time is valuable, but I've come a long way. And my family has served very honorably. And I'm just, I would love to hear these answers.

And the monk looks at him. And he goes, you are a brute, killed people. You know, and you're just a horrible person. Your whole family is horrible. And look at what kind of sword you have. Like, what is that? That looks like a piece of garbage that a heathen would make. What kind of a family would generate that piece of junk?

What do you stand for? And like the samurai is starting to get verbally, he's getting mad at this point in time. And he goes, you're a whole family, your whole lineage, your stupid sword, your whole way of life is garbage. And everything you stand for is ridiculous. You've lived a life that is purposeless and meaningless. and you are purposeless and meaningless. Samarais are nothing. And the samurai at this point in time is starting to get really pissed off. And he loses it and he grabs the hilt of his sword and he unleashes it a little bit.

And the monk looks and he looks at him and goes, behold, the gates of hell. And the samurai realizes that his rage and his anger and his animosity towards wanting to kill this monk for talking about his family is the gates of hell. And so he takes a sword and he puts it back. in the sheath and the monk says, behold, the gates of the gates of heaven. Like, it's the forgiveness that for yourself that is the gates of heaven. It's the no understanding that everything that you went through and forgiving yourself, that's salvation. And it's the animosity, the anger. Like, how dare you talk to me

this way? Do you know who I am? All of these judgments, all of these things. Like, that's the gates of hell. And so we all have that in us. I bring up that story because I run through that all the time. Anytime I get triggered, I get set off. I'm like, oh, this isn't me. This is a part of me that's offended by something silly of someone else's small-mindedness or someone else's judgments or my judgment myself. Like that's where we find purpose too is understanding who we are and that maybe we're not our thoughts, but we are the person listening. That's been very helpful for me in my life, is to understand that you're not, you know, what are the gates of hell and what are the gates of heaven? And are you the person that you think you are? Are you the person observing?

It's been instrumental. And I think it can help a lot of people just to be the observer. But it's a cool story. I always try to tell that one and think about it to myself. Well, it's, you know, what I thought you're going to say, George, with this was also kind of an answer to my question, right, of like how do you deal with like how do you answer that question and I and I and I think you know what I was wondering the Santa Samara was going to do was to figure out that all he needed to do is just stand there because standing there isn't the answer to the question like to like if your inner doubts are coming and like are you doing this only for this and that reason are you just this blah blah blah blah blah but you just

stay. That part of you sees. Yeah. Maybe that's the answer. That part of you state, like maybe you stand. Maybe that's the most profound answer. You stand. Consequences, whatever they are.

Like, you're still here, and you're still standing facing the flame. Maybe you stand. You stand on what you believe in. Maybe that's enough. That's what it feels like. It reminds me of a, it was a dream that I had where it was just like, it was talking about a relationship that I had and accepting like the grace of like being gifted something I got in my life. And I was like, well, how do you accept? I was, you know, this is a weird.

I have some weirdo dreams, bro. I love it. Weirdo, limit all, like half asleep, half awake. My brain is like, spend all this stuff. But it was such a cool experience because it was like, you know, it's like, how do I accept this? Right. And it was like, you stay. You stay. You know, and I wonder if that's because like to to argue with our thoughts or argue with our doubts or to argue with external doubts or whatever it is, is to operate in the air. But what you want to find out is if are you the mountain? Right. Like you don't want to know, you don't want to figure out if you're a cloud. If you're a cloud, that's not the question. The question is, are you the mountain? And what does a mountain do?

A mountain fucking stays, baby. A mountain just is, it is what it is. Yeah. Right? And yeah, and that's, and that's, that feels true to me, man. That feels true to me. And it's definitely something that I've learned from, learned is a big word.

Yeah. Definitely something that I am learning. I've learned it through, through the therapy that I've gone through and I've learned it through life for sure. Yeah, man. I think it's beautiful. I think it's standing. And look,

sometimes you're going to be wrong. But, you know, experiences what you get when you don't get what you want. Right? Yeah. Yeah, man. You got it.

You got it. Dude, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I really, I really appreciate it. I hope, uh, yeah, I really appreciate it, man. I really do. Me too. I'm looking forward to seeing you and, uh, in, uh, in psychedelic science. I'm looking forward to seeing so many people. Uh, I know. I've been, I've been a fan from afar for, for quite some time. And, uh, it's going to be fun to get in the mix.

Man, I can't wait. Shout out to psychedelic playhouse. They got a bunch of cool events coming up. Oh, yeah. Bogus saves is coming up. I can't wait to be. over there. I can't wait to give you a hug and see so many of the people that we have both spoken with and just kind of get to tell some stories, man, and hang out and see what transpires. There's so many great people at the event and there's so much going on that it's really exciting. And people want to get involved now is the time. Like there's no real barrier to entry for what we're doing. Maybe this event there is, but there's no barrier to entry to get involved and volunteer and be part of something bigger than yourself. I hope everybody chooses to do that.

So where can people find you, Alex? I know you got to jam out of here. Where can people find you? What do you got coming up? What are you excited about? Great, great question. So I do almost all of my writing and other stuff on LinkedIn, but the podcast, so just Alex Stetmering at LinkedIn.

Search Alex Stenring and search for our LinkedIn. That's not the URL. You can also check out. What I, what like we do, the foundation that I've started in the publication, Secret Worldness, that is out, which is a podcast. All we do is we try to go as deep as we possibly can into people's psychedelic therapy experiences and all the connected experience of the life. The goal is for them to, man, just speak it, share their kernel of truth. The goal is to get them to share their kernel of truth and to help them do that. And that's, and that's at, that usually, if you want to follow that, then follow up, subscribe to our substack.

That's parablefoundation.substack.com. Please check it out. I'm working with Jack and the Psychedelic Playhouse people on Caesar and Mary and all these people on a panel coming up at the Psychedelic Playhouse. Those guys doing amazing stuff. The panel is on Wednesday. June 18th. It's at 730. It's at the Jonas Brothers building, but it's night two of the psychedelic plus. I'm pretty sure Jack dropped it in, but if you guys want to, want to check it out, please do. It's all about bringing psychedelic media into the mainstream once more. That's the

whole topic of it. And I'm going to be moderating it and asking people that know a lot more than I do what their opinions are. I'm very excited about that because I'm going to ask a ton of questions because I want to know the answer. So that's pretty much it. But if anyone's still here, thank you for listening

and honoring us for your presence. It's been a pleasure. Thank you to everybody. Go check out Alex and all the stuff he's doing. I think you're brilliant at it. I love the way you communicate and I can't wait to see you, my friend. Hang on briefly afterwards.

Everybody else, have a beautiful day. That's all we got. Aloha.