TrueLife - Swati Sharma - Our Unfolding Nature: Creativity, Spirituality, and Music

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/www.swatisharma.cohttps://instagram.com/swati.lu?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==A media & music professional who's passionate about blending communications, digital strategy, and design to help professionals in psychedelics and wellness elevate their online presence.My expertise lies in developing solutions for founders and creators by leveraging a distinctive combination of communications, marketing, and branding for business development. Over the years, I've sharpened my skills in these areas to support businesses and help them thrive.My curiosity for the world of digital and broadcast media started 5 years ago while working as a radio host interviewing artists for my passion project, vitamin R on CJAM FM.This inspired me to start freelance writing in the psychedelics space, which transformed my life forever.Since then, I:* Became the Executive Director of* Psychedelic Spotlight and helped scale it into one of the largest online psychedelic publications* Have been featured by major psychedelic media platforms such as Psychedelics Today, Third Wave, Honeysuckle Magazine, Chacruna Institute and Microdose Insights* Launched my own media agency for psychedelic and wellness founders, creators, and professionals* Became an ambassador for WOC in psychedelic business* And much more.* I'm committed to advocacy work that ensures* POC and Indigenous individuals have a deserved seat at the psychedelics industry's table. My work will always be accessible for diverse and marginalized communities.* Think we're a good fit? If you're looking to up-level your online presence and grow your brand in the psychedelics and wellness spaces, let's connect.* Web: www.swatisharma.co* •* E-mail: [e-mail] One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful Tuesday afternoon. I hope the sun is shining. The birds are singing. I hope you're listening to that little voice in your heart that tells you,

you're an amazing person and you listen to it. Because sometimes if you stop listening to it, it stops talking. That being said, I have a beautiful guest and a beautiful show for you today, someone who is a passionate media professional who has made an art form out of blending communications, digital strategy, and design to help professionals and psychedelics and wellness elevate their online presence. She's been developing solutions for founders and creators by leveraging a distinctive combination of marketing, branding for business and development.

And if you have been at all in the LinkedIn community or the psychedelic community, I'm sure you've seen her and talked to her and seen many of her engaging posts. Swati Sharma, how are you today? Thank you for being here. Thanks for that beautiful intro. Thank you. I'm good. How are you doing today?

I'm living the dream. I think we're both living the dream in that I'm coming to you from the beautiful state of Hawaii and you're coming to us from the vibrant city of Mexico City. Yes, I am. Yeah, weather goes both ways. I'm very happy about that. Yeah. Yeah. It's so amazing. You know, before we got started, we were both talking about having a background and, like, broadcasting and podcasting and communications a little bit.

And it's such a beautiful art form, too, when you start really digging into the world of communication. Maybe we can just start. Like, what? How did you get started doing what you're doing? It's a good question. So I actually had a very interesting. transition away from my past career life. I was a teacher for several years, a high school teacher, but, you know, also like a curious psychonaut and just like having this whole other world that didn't really work within that structure. And so I, during the pandemic, actually, I started

to make a transition away from that and started doing my own writing and exploring, I mean, I been interested in psychedelics for over a decade, but the research really started to get interesting for me around 2019. And that was when I got really interested in doing some of this writing and honestly, just learning and absorbing as much as I could about this quote unquote renaissance. And during that time, I ended up actually getting hired by psychedelic spotlight, which was very cool and just made my way working with the platform helping the CEO David Flores to be able to build things and navigate our way through reporting on interesting information and current events within this space and just it's kind of taken me to this point now where I'm kind of off doing

my own thing so yeah it's been a journey and I'm very happy to be here now that's awesome it's fascinating to me sometimes the stories we tell about our lives seem to echo a psychic experience. Like you had like this big come up and you're like, oh, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm so scared. This thing unfolds in front of you. That's super true. And honestly, I would say that this all started for me even before then in my late teens, early 20s. When I finished my undergrad in psychology and I was, you know, taking a little bit of a break. I needed a break from school. and I ended up just kind of very spontaneously moving to the west coast of Canada. And I didn't know what was there for me.

I had very few plans actually in place. I ended up just going with like, I think it was like 500 bucks in my bank account. Honestly, it was insane. And I was just like, nope, this is like what I need to do. I need to find a place. I need to like figure it all out. And I did. I ended up staying there and just traveling and experiencing the beauty of the Rockies.

just learning so much about myself, so much about others. It's such an international town in the town of dance. And that was what ignited this really big curiosity in me to continue traveling. And it was kind of simultaneously during my spiritual development, if you want to say that. You know, at the time I was like very into yoga and spirituality and just cultivating my own presence and space in the world and kind of kind of understanding. Who am I, you know, at this very ripe early age, early adulthood? And so from there, I just, I ended up actually staying for a year.

I sold all my stuff and then I moved to Asia in the same way. Actually, I literally just took all the money that I had and I just started backpacking with a friend, but he ended up leaving pretty early on. So I went all the way across like Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, wow, like everywhere. and I ended up getting a job in Taiwan. And I worked in Taiwan as a teacher for a year. Then I moved to South Korea and I worked there for another year. So I was like my entire early 20s was just this like vast exploration of trying to really do a lot of inner work, deep learning, learning about spiritual practices, but then also about myself, becoming an educator.

And honestly, I used psychedelics the entire time as she. Truly, I was such an advocate and so passionate about them and what they were able to kind of unveil and knew there were something there, you know, but we didn't realize what this was until later on into my early, in my late 20s, where I started to connect the dots and realize, okay, this is actually very important and informative for me. And always kind of wanting to work within this kind of therapeutic realm, having that psychology background. I just think it all really came full circle for me.

I'm so grateful to be here, honestly. Wow, that's such a beautiful story. I got a lot of questions there, but the first one is a lot of people have a very difficult relationship with uncertainty. And it seems at a young age, you found a way to make friends with uncertainty. Can you talk a bit about how you did that and what your relationship with uncertainty is today? I appreciate that question.

That's a great question. Yeah, absolutely. So the concept of uncertainty has always, I think, I think it's intrigued me more than anything. And I still feel as though I carry that spirit, especially with working with psychedelics, especially working abroad, being a quote unquote digital nomad, which I do consider myself. I don't say that out loud. But, you know, I've lived in, you know, over four countries at this point. And so for myself, I feel very connected to trusting in.

the ability to navigate and find a place for myself. And that has always worked out for me. For whatever reason, it hasn't been easy by any means. And I know there's tons of people that would look at my lifestyle. And I have friends, dear friends that look at my lifestyle. And I'm like, what's the problem with you, buddy? Why don't you like this? Why don't you just like find a nice house, a nice husband at home or whatever it is?

And for me, I'm just curious to continue exploring and learning more and expanding my horizon. That's what has helped me evolve into the person that I am. I think I haven't lived with much certainty in my life. Like if you had to tie it back to childhood, there was a lot of uncertainty just in like my family circles and challenges that I had to overcome significant, honestly, challenges of growing up with family for two immigrant parents. and, you know, there was no certainty for them, being able to navigate their lives in North America, and they packed up everything and moved. And it's unbelievable to think about that.

But it's like, you know, if they can do that, and then I think I can too. Yeah. It's fascinating. And I'm glad to hear that story because I think that it's something that a lot of people give in to that sort of peer pressure or give in to the fear of like, why don't you just stop? Why don't you just quit? Why don't you just get a house and a husband or get a house and get a wife? Or why don't you stop?

In a weird way, it almost sounds like, why don't you stop being curious? You know, and it's like, it's kind of sad to hear that a little bit, right? Because we all have this fire that burns in us, but we have to balance the responsibilities of life with the curiosities of life. But it seems to me that people who are willing to continue to believe in themselves, and light the fire that burns within them. Like they'll find a way. I think life wants to find a way.

What do you think? Yes, I totally agree. I think that life wants you to find all of the things for yourself, especially when you're working with these medicines, right? Right. Like, you know, substances, whatever you want to call them, I think that they have such a profound influence on our ability to see the possibilities of what exists.

You know, they're like magic. fantastical beings in ways. I'm going to get all esoterics here. And I think that it just shows what is possible in life. And so for me, it's almost kind of like this combination of the two going hand in hand, this uncertainty, this like entering the psychedelic realm, pushing ourselves, finding out more. The curiosity I don't think ever ends.

And if it does, I don't know. Maybe that's fine and it works for you, but it doesn't work for me. I get bored very easily and I want to know what else is going on. So I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. I would love to just continue learning about cultures internationally, about how people live their lives and what drives them to do what they do and be the way they are. So it's great.

It is great. I think it's fascinating too as someone who finds themselves in the world of education. You had alluded to a psychedelic experience that unveils truths to you. And I found that to be very true. It seems that in heightened states of awareness, information is revealed to you. Almost, it's almost, I think you could almost like revealing information and learning information or almost synonymous because I've had so many moments on the heightened state of awareness. Like, oh my God, it was always there.

I never knew that. It's like, it's so true. You're just lifting the veil a little bit. What do you think about the unveiling? of information that is presented to you. It's fascinating, right? Yes, definitely. The unveiling of the information, I mean, that's why we're doing this, right? If we didn't want to know, we wouldn't be doing these things. You know, believe me, if I didn't want to know, I would not be doing these things. Right, right. There's so much, and they're very challenging,

sacred, in my opinion, sacred medicines that deserve a lot of respect. And, and, they're, they're very challenging, a lot of respect and your due diligence in understanding what they're capable of learning on your own being able to properly, I know it's almost like a cliche saying integrate, but at this point, you know, I totally agree with that, making sure that we're integrating all the lessons that we're learning into our lives in the best way that we can or else why are we even down this path. you know what is the purpose of this top it's not to actually utilize those gifts you know yeah it's it's interesting too sometimes you you hear people use the metaphor i have a someone who does a lot of psychedelics can often say things like i feel like i have a foot in both worlds and i think that on some

level i'm curious to how what was the experience like at your age to not only have a foot in both of those worlds but to do psychedelics in the west and then do them in the east was there a different sort of relationship there? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think ultimately, yes, a cultural context has a huge impact on how you experience these medicines. I've experienced them in several countries. I came back from Brazil just a month ago, which was amazing and sat with the Huny Queen

and Santo Dime Church, which I am so honestly incredibly grateful to be able to experience in my lifetime. and that comparing that experience to being in Bali and drinking like a shroom shake. I mean, whatever it is, you know, I think that ultimately you're brought back into yourself when you are experiencing these medicines, at least this is my opinion, you know, for myself. And through that process, I'm constantly uncovering and experiencing new elements that I had never uncovered before. And I think it's beautiful.

I think it's incredible that we can actually create physical, we can create experiences through changing our physical environment by relocating, by re-experiencing time and time again. It's very interesting stuff. It's fascinating. And that's why I think that this is a huge part of my life's work. Yeah, I think it's beautiful. And it's so refreshing to get the perspective of someone who has had an experience of similar substances in radically different areas.

You know, sometimes I think that the stagnation of modern models is a problem. Like when we look at, sometimes when I look at the Western model, I've been looking at these ideas of some of the retreats. And first off, I have a problem with the word retreat because it sounds like you're running away. from something. And most of my psychedelic experience have been like a confrontation. And those have usually been the ones that have been like the most helpful. It's like, you're not running away from this. There's no way. You know, you're going to face this thing. You can do it now. And so, but when I do look at the Western model, I'm hopeful. And I think people like yourself are going to play a large role in sort of integrating the world model. And I'll give you an example of what I mean.

Let's say that there's a retreat in Jamaica that brings down people from the United States. And they do like one day of ayahuasca, the next day of mushrooms, and then they have an integration ceremony, and then it's like a three or four day retreating then they go home. Might a better model be incorporating something that is done in like South Africa, where they have like a woman's retreat for women who have had an abortion or lost a child? And in that retreat, the woman stand in the middle and the men around them. And like might there be a better way to do a whole retreat instead of just doing sort of like a McDonald's transformation. And I know that's not a fair, I know it's not a fair thing to say about

all right. I'm not painting them with a broad brush, but what do you think about integrating a more holistic model throughout the world? That's interesting. I mean, I don't, I don't know what that would look like in execution. I think that could be a little bit challenging. It's like a bit ambitious. Right, right. That's, that's interesting that you're referring to it as like the McDonald's vacation of psychedelic use. I mean, we're talking about the psychedelic renaissance, right? We're talking about expansion, development. And these are all very important areas that unfortunately, you know, this industry is going to have to rely on to be able to sustain itself. And so you're going to receive more McDonald'sification within these spaces, you know.

And I think at this point, I was having this conversation recently. At this point, there's no stopping this, right? We were already on such a role. There's such an amazing research that's coming out. and, you know, I don't know if you were at MAPS in Denver recently, but when you're there and you realize the extent of what's happening here, there's no going back, in my opinion, at this point, you know. And so how do we work with these models that already exist

and make sure that we're creating more authentic spaces rather than places that are feeling like they're cheap and fast food-like, you know, you know, something, I think that that's something for, us to really consider instead of maybe just throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying, like, you know, this is so commercial now. I mean, it's going to be commercial. So what do we do about it? Yeah. Do you think that there's any chance of like, you know, some people say that the best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior. And it seems like maybe in the 50s and 60s, there were some really big walls that were put up. Do you think that, like, in the event there are, like, a

Charles Manson or a Jim Jones or something like that. Do you think that something like that has the ability to just push everything back behind the wall again? That's a great question. I don't think it's going to be, this is my opinion. Yeah, of course, of course. I don't see it being a single entity that is going to potentially ruin anything. I think that it's going to be a consistent issue that we are seeing.

within the structure of how these clinics, these medicines, these faces are being set up. And it'll be, in my opinion, you know, coming from that, like, media perspective, the media taking that information and completely running with it, doing what the media does best, which is creating very, you know, alarmist headlines. I think that this is like, this is my honest opinion. I don't see it like one individual completely ruining it for everyone. So I worry a little bit, just fundamentally, what is this going to look like on a larger scale if people are not actually instilling the proper integration and resources? I think this is a consistent conversation that we have in the space of, you know, what are these models of care looking like?

Do they imitate and mimic the appropriate maybe like, I don't know, I don't want to say pharmaceutical, the therapeutic route that we currently have? Or is it something that is totally new that is maybe better? That would be great. But we don't really know what this looks like in the long run. So I think that's my biggest question here. It's such an amazing time. I heard another great quote that was something along the lines of, the best way to predict the future is to create it.

And I think everybody in this space right now, even conversations like this, no matter how minor, are playing a role in shaping the vision of what is possible. And like, I love to think about just even being a footnote in this high tide of psychedelic, in this high tide of psychedelics is fascinating to me. And with it comes some responsibility. I think that it is important to ask difficult questions. It is important to talk about the good things and the bad things and understand that

the people in media or the people telling stories or the storytellers have an obligation to paint it in a light that is much like psychedelics. It's a little difficult to explain with words, right? Definitely. I mean, I would agree with that for sure. I think that the media does have a responsibility to do that. However, the media is also a part of a larger system that exists that is also kind of maybe invested in its own self-interest in being able to keep the ball moving forward.

so to speak. I don't want to be too explicit about my opinions here, but, you know, ultimately, I think it's important to just take what you read and see with a grain of salt very often. There's a lot of work to do in this area of being able to be honest and transparent about what is actually happening, what actually is useful. I'm sure that you've probably seen these, like, extremely positive headlines that are coming out within the space. And those are fantastic. They generate a lot of traffic and intras. People love sharing it and they're celebrating.

But nobody is really talking about the challenges, the significant challenges that can arise from this type of work, structurally in terms of just poor actors and how they can act in these spaces. There's some knowledge. But it makes me very curious to see what this. is going to be like. As this expands and grows, it becomes almost like a household type of, you know, therapeutic practice. You never know. Who knows? Isn't that goal here? I don't know. Yeah. What will that look like on a larger scale when there are more people needing more

assistance, needing more care, more help, navigate, integrate, having significant spiritual emergencies that they don't know how to navigate because they have never considered themselves a spiritual person and then they're opening up this entire realm to themselves and they don't know what to do because it's frightening and it's alienating. These are big questions to ask. And the media needs to, in my opinion, start sharing this in a larger capacity. Yeah, it seems like the majority of headlines seem to point to the fragility of people. And I'm not sure.

Like, I know that I need a lot of help. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life. And I think that psychedelics have been a real blessing to help me work through some of the traumas that I've been through before. And I know that lots of people have things that psychedelics can help them work through. But sometimes I wonder to what level are we in a mental health crisis. Like sometimes the language, it does seem alarming to me. And it seems to underscore, like, almost.

like everyone's too fragile. Everyone has got a mental crisis. It's like, wait a minute. Do we have a mental crisis or are we going through a phase where we're pulling ourselves out of this thing? Like maybe the language. You know, language and psychedelics is a tricky thing. But are we, is it the money behind the fragility that's driving those headlines,

do you think? That's a good question. I mean, I think that the mental health paradigm is very much so structured into our culture. I don't think a lot of cultures around the world are speaking about mental health. They're starting to catch on because this Western model is globalizing into that direction, and people are now starting to acknowledge this. But I personally think that this is the bigger challenge that Western circles are having to tackle. I mean, the majority of people that are talking about this,

this is all, once again, based on my work in media, is within the, within North America. And so that makes me wonder, too, you know, is it because there's a lack of education? Is it because we place so much emphasis and stress on this mental health model? And this like biopsychosocial model of, you know, these are all the areas in which we need to address.

Because when we're talking about indigenous cultures, this is not really the case, right? And I think psilocybin was used as a medicine to help physical ailments for thousands and thousands of years. It wasn't solely for mental health, you know, for healing. It's a part of culture. It's socially a part of, you know, who these groups are. And so it just, in my opinion, really depends on context. And I think that our context is very, it can be sensationalist.

it can be geared towards driving emotion, sales, expansion, you know, profits. This is very much so a part of Western culture. And so it just makes me wonder a lot about what that is going to look like. And hopefully these local groups and individuals are not going to be so affected by all of this in the future. But hey, who knows? Yeah, I like what you said. I think that it's all necessary. Like we do need the investment for the clinical trials.

We do need the investment. We need all of the people playing a role in it in order for us to be successful. And it's fascinating to me to get to see it play out on the scale that it's playing out. And it's exciting to see. And another fascinating point is the difference. And because you have been able to participate in psychedelics in a lot of places around the world, You already brought up one point where maybe in some places it's used to cure an ailment versus in the West it's used for mental health.

What are some other sort of dichotomies there that you've noticed? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think that the concept of community is so emphasized and heavily focused upon rather than individual feeling. This is something that I see very frequently. I think that model of therapists and patients, sitting in a room and working one-on-one. This is almost non-existent in most indigenous cultures.

And this is something that I wonder about. It's like that community container is like critical, critical to being able to actually overcome, develop, evolved spiritually. And I know that we are integrating this into our Western concepts as well. But it's still quite different, you know. see a lot of dissonance between how these medicines have been traditionally used versus how we are integrating them. And that is also valid and fair because, you know, we're not, we're not from indigenous cultures. That's not our background. Maybe that's not what we're used to.

But then when you compare and you see how these cultures work with the medicines, you see a significant unity, a sense of unity and a sense of sacred reverence that I feel like is too individualized here. So I'm just curious to see if we are able to be a little bit more open, being able to work with one another in these capacities, rather than talking about my healing, our healing as a collective, as a community. You know, I would love to see that over time. Yeah. I would love to see some more like ceremonies or rituals.

You know, I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell and like reading different myths and stuff like that. And sometimes he'll talk about different ceremonies that he has read about. And I'm always taken aback by, you know, imagine yourself at a, at a ceremony. And as a child, you're watching the ceremony. As a child becoming an adult, you're in the ceremony. And as an elder, you're providing the ceremony. So you're always playing a role and you're always participating in it.

And you're always getting to see the other person who may or may or may not be a younger or older version of you in that ceremony. You really get to see this idea of community that you're talking about. And it seems like that's absent in a lot, at least in the world I was brought up. And there's echoes of a kinsignera or there's echoes of a bar mitzvah. But for most people, there's no rights of passage. And not just for a child becoming an adult, but for a woman going through menopause or for a man becoming a father or someone towards the end of life. Like I feel like we're spiritually void and rites of passage. What do you think?

Is that accurate? That's a great analysis. I agree with you. I think that there are certain periods of our lives that we feel are ceremonial. You know, you're having a baby shower, you're whatever it is, really. And I understand that and I can see that. But ultimately, they're not focused around the concept of healing. They're focused on the concept of celebration, you know.

And so this concept of being able to spiritually evolve, grow stronger as a community. I think like this is fundamentally what's missing. And that's why I think that us in the West are so compelled to join ayahuasca circles and go to Peru and go to Tos and Amazon. and whatever it is. Like I think that there's a lot of intrigue because this is something that we have lacked throughout our upbringing in our lives.

When you experience that for the first time, it's profound, we feel it. Yeah. Very profound, you know. Many people identify as not having a very authentic connection to a sacred space, you know. And so once you've cultivated that, it can be life-changing.

And so you can see how that can be challenging sometimes when you bring into the West and the wrong people are doing that and then we have complications and issues but I have a lot of hope I do I do I do think that there's there's a lot of potential for this to grow in a responsible way that doesn't appropriate the medicine that is sustainable I mean we've talked about so many options there's so many different routes for this to happen it's just a matter of like putting it all together and and then getting it out there and being responsible.

Yeah, that's really well said. I love the idea. You've spoken a bit about containers and sacred spaces in the West. And it seems to me, at least for me in my experience, when I rekindled my romance with the psychedelic experience, it's almost as if I re-invited spirituality back into my life. And you don't know something's missing until you have it back sometimes. I know people say you don't know what you have until it's gone, but sometimes you don't realize what you had until it's back.

And you're like, oh, I've missed you so much. I love you. You know what I mean? It's just like this overwhelming feeling. And it does call it. Maybe I think that that is the romantic notion of people going to sitting in ceremonies and being called to different parts of the world. It's this romantic seduction of spirit and spirituality that is part of us that we have forgotten about.

And sometimes it seems as if science and spirituality are two different sides of this soul. even though the same sword in the West we tend to bow down to this beautiful sharp blade of science that cuts everything into sharp little pieces for us to digest, but we forget about the magic and mystical and unexplainable phenomenon that is the mystic tradition that should go hand in hand with science. What do you think about this weird sort of separation between science and spirituality? I do think it's weird. I think I don't think that it's it's very valid at this point, you know. I think that there is a way for us to integrate the few and I, and it's evident that a lot of scientists are examining this actively and finding that you are able to study spiritual phenomena to an extent, you know, and it's okay for us to do so. I don't think that there's any issue with that. I think that's a, that's a really interesting conversation.

Yeah. And it's one that is going to continue evolving, obviously, now that we have the ability to do so. Yeah, I think that there would be some fascinating conversations to, in my mind and my hallucination. Like, I would pay money to go and watch two of, like, some of the world's greatest scientists and the world's greatest people in the mystic and healing tradition sit down and have an open-minded discussion about healing.

And you know what, as I'm sitting here, there's a really cool book that I want the listeners to check out. And it's called Metaphors, Figures of the Mind. And in this book, he talks about metaphor and language as being the way in which we discover radical new ideas. And he says that the foundation, how could you possibly create any new idea without referring to an old idea? And when you start diving into this world of metaphors and language, it became obvious to me that both, science and the world of spirituality rely heavy on the idea of metaphor to come up with new ideas and discoveries. And like we can't have new ideas and discoveries until we begin to understand the foundation of both of those things is the same. And when you do that, it's like,

oh, we're like the, we're like the bridge in between the double helix that's constantly spiraling upwards, you know, and I don't know, I kind of go off on my soapbox there a little bit. But it's just so fascinating to me to think about the idea of language and what role that plays in the psychedelic experience, spirituality and science. Maybe you could speak to that a little bit. That's interesting that you're bringing that up. I mean, language, if you're speaking about that concept in general, I think it's very important. I mean, I'm coming from once again this kind of like communication side of things, right? And that's kind of where I live. And I find that being able to convey these ideas and this information in an effective way through these different

mediums that we exist in. I mean, you know, inevitably, we all exist online. We all interact with these mediums day to day, I think is extremely important. And it makes me wonder a lot about the future of how we are going to be able to express our opinions, our experiences, either scientific or spiritual or a comment. of both, yeah, effectively for people to understand, you know, and I wonder about what type of language people use to actually describe the spiritual experience, the mystical experience, the scientific experience, you know, like I think that there's so much variation

that exists here, and it's a challenge, right? Like, how do you actually put the ineffable into words and express this in a way that communicates what you are. feeling when it's almost impossible if you have never taken these substances yourself. That brings up an incredible point and something that I'm not sure how to feel about. And maybe you can provide me some clarity. And that is, you know, it's interesting to speak to people who are in the forefront of psychedelic research, who have never taken a psychedelic before. I'm not discounting their work.

They're clearly genius people. but it's almost impossible for me to think, like, had this person taken or had a giant psychedelic experience, might that shift the focus of their work, right? Definitely, definitely. And I'm very curious to know what the numbers actually look like here, you know, what majority or what percentage of people have actually experienced these things versus not. Something that I have always thought about in the past is there's a ton of biotech companies that are working with really, in my opinion,

like very advanced psychedelics, you know, and they're attributing them to kind of everyday ailments. And it makes me sincerely wonder, does this actually make sense? Is there a logical tie between this substance actually being applied to X? Or is this just what was available and something that we could potentially patent?

And that's a whole conversation in itself, but it makes me sincerely wonder, are we actually using these in an intentional way that makes sense for the evolution of their use in biotech and in medicine? Or is it just a patent race? And I know 2020 was really tough for a lot of these companies, and it was a very challenging time for them to navigate. but, you know, in the future, we will still have these available for, you know, X, Y, Z conditions. And if we are not thinking about these in a very intentional way, if, yeah, I just, it makes me sincerely wonder, you know, what's the practicality versus the theory? Yeah. It's, you know, like, again, if, if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, then we can probably predict, much like the coca leaf gave us cocaine and tobacco plant gave us cigarettes, you know, there is a large possibility for some sort of super, you know, super 5H2A receptor

combinder or something, you know, that like just, you know, I don't know. On some level, I think that, but on another level, I think that, you know, maybe that the spiritual nature of the plants don't want to be abused. And the example I give for that is if you look at what happened in the cannabis industry, like the price of cannabis has just hit rock bottom on some levels. If you look at the way in which public companies who try to trade in this, just get wrecked, like maybe there's something bigger than we can understand. It's like, now, this is not for commercial use.

I mean, I don't know how to explain those things, but those things are there. That's interesting that you say that. Who knows, right? Right. I can't say for sure. Right. I don't even know what I really think in that regard. and be very honest.

I don't know. If it's meant to be, it will happen. I think that's the most basic way to go about saying, you know, how to navigate that for myself. But yeah, that's an interesting idea. I don't know. We will have to wait and see. Yeah.

I've heard some other interesting stories. Like maybe psilocybin is like an exogenous neurotransmitter. You know, why not? Like if you believe that you don't come into this world, but you come out of it, and the earth grows people like an apple tree grows apples, then why wouldn't there be some sort of exa-transmitters that you take from the earth? Like, why wouldn't the stone ape theory be plausible? Like, why wouldn't that be part of our evolution? And if you, if you want more evidence of that, you know, the word therapy or the word, you know, mental health could be

switched out with mental optimization because I see so many people that started a place of scarcity. They begin with a psychedelic journey. And the next thing I know, they're investigating things that are so fascinating to me. And they've found this authentic version of themselves. And it's like, maybe they were just missing some nutrients. Maybe this is part of our diet that's been taken away from us. And it's forced to see things in such a narrow view that we've forgotten about all these things. Is that too far out there for you?

No, not at all. I agree and I think there's a lot of scientific backing towards this as well, right? There's that concept of a lot of these mental health challenges that people have, such as OCD, depression, anxiety are based in having kind of a rigid form of thinking. And then psychedelics are able to work with that and heal that. And so the question is why, right? Why, why is that even a thing? Why does this, why do these substances have the ability?

to show us what we were unable to see, you know, and many people find them therapeutically beneficial. Sometimes they're random. Sometimes they can be harmful for people. Quite honestly, I'm going to say that. I'm very honestly. Yeah, of course. You know.

And, yeah, it's just a part of the great mystery, I think, of it all. It is. So here's an interesting idea I've been thinking about. And I think that you, as someone who has traveled around the world and been submerged in other cultures, not only in a sober state, but in a psychedelic state may have a very unique view here. So there's another great book called The Gutenberg Galaxy by Marshall McLuhan. And in that book, he speaks to the idea of alphabets.

And if you think about like the Western alphabet, you know, and the way we've printed stuff in books, it changes the ratio of senses. Like you can read a book and it's like exact repeatability. And like that's kind of a newer phenomenon, really. know, this idea of things being printed since the printing press only came out, you know, 400 years ago or something along those lines. And the way we consume information changes the ratio of our senses. Like obviously now, we're so visual and stuff, but there was a time when information

was passed down by storytellers. And you may see that when you go to South America and you sit in ceremony and you listen to someone tell the story of the myth of this or the myth of that, this, thisness and that or the thatness and this. It changes the sense ratios. And I think psychedelics do that too, right? Like maybe that's what gives us this insight. Like, oh my God, I saw myself from a third person point of view.

Or I really got to hear this voice. Like maybe it's the sense ratio. Maybe the alphabet has something to do with that. Do you think it's possible as someone who's traveled around and been submerged in different cultures with different alphabets, that that could play a part in a psychedelic experience? Yes. I mean, I think that there are so many factors that can potentially impact the psychedelic experience in different ways.

I mean, ultimately, on a neurological level, they're acting in similarly. There's similar patterns. But there are these other factors that have profound influence. So, you know, who am I to say no to that? It's mesmerizing to me. Like, there's so many possibilities. Yeah. Yeah.

What? Let me ask you this question. If I shift gears a little bit. What are some of the beneficial things and maybe some of the drawbacks between microdosing and macro dosing in your opinion? Or just using for different things? Or what do you think about those two things? The benefits and drawbacks of either. That's an interesting question.

Yes, there are very, you know, mechanical drawbacks. Like if you macrodose, make sure you have like seven or eight hours free in your day versus microdosing, you know, very basic things, but if we're talking more in terms of like their actual physical benefits and how they impact us as individuals, I think they're very different things, I have to say. My honest opinion is that a lot of people are able to enter this space in this realm, using microdosing as a gateway to familiarize themselves with these substances. And that's totally valid. That's completely fair. That's, in my opinion, going to be the majority of people in the future who are a little bit too afraid to take a microdose and that's and that's

fine however I think that it's very difficult for you for somebody to determine what psychedelics are like without having experience the true macrodose experience or have done them on a more consistent basis and been able to really navigate that state it's a challenging state of being in my opinion. It's not something to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't think it is for everyone, as we have said time and time again. And I love that. I love that message because I would love for us to not forget and mindlessly promote psychedelics to everybody and saying it's going to change their lives. It's not for everybody. And I think there's use cases for both. And I would hope that we will find ways to support people who are new to the sea substances in the macrodose state.

I think the microdose is relatively comfortable. It's easy to navigate for most. But, yes, taking a larger dose experience. And instead of just saying, hey, you know, bad trips don't exist. They're just challenging trips. I think that is the worst narrative. Sorry, I absolutely don't have that narrative. I think that is absolutely insane.

If somebody says that to me, I have to be very honest. If somebody says that and they stand by that, I sincerely think that they are a little bit inexperienced and they have not seen what can be the outcome from psychedelic use, like dissociation, completely losing sense of self. You know, I've seen drug-induced psychosis. You know, this is something that I think is so important to get out there.

And so that's the risk. that people run when they are taking these substances. And even in the microdosing sense, if you have a predisposition to mental illness and you microdose on a consistent basis, you never know. There's a possibility that you can develop some kind of like mania or something along those lines.

I've heard this from doctors that have worked in the psychedelic space. So, yeah, there's a lot to consider here. And this is just my PSA to the world because I don't like the idea of promoting psychedelic use for all willy-nilly without any consideration for the potential of what can happen. And I hope that we have more harm reduction and more education in place for this, especially things like HPPD. You know, there's a lot. There's a lot there. And these are things that I actually am looking to hopefully talk about on a, it's like a podcast, but it's more like performative art, performance art. My friend Dr. Darian Parker and I are putting together a, we're calling in an event for now.

But it's called Safe Room. And the idea is to be able to tell your psychedelic experiences in complete anonymity. So we're modulating voices, no names, but sharing what has happened. through the use of psychedelics and also within the industry, if you work within these spaces. And these are things that people don't feel comfortable talking about because it's stigmatized, it's illegal, it's extremely taboo, or it's like potentially career-roaming. I don't know what it's right. You know, yeah.

And so I think that a space like this is very necessary because people are not aware of, like, if somebody does experience drug-induced psychosis for two months at a time and they, think that they're Jesus, this is an actual story that we received. You know, what does that, how do I navigate that? What does that feel like? Or is it just a story you've heard in passing, you know? So it's an interesting thing to think about, and I'm excited for this. I think it's necessary and it'll be important.

So stay tuned. Yeah, everybody should stay tuned to. That sounds like a fascinating project tonight. Are you going to do, is it going to be the person with the story? are you going to have like voice actors? When you say it's a production, is it going to be like an audio book in a way where there's like a presentation

and like a voice actor on there? Yeah, it'll be from a first person perspective, but they will have, yeah, their voice modulated. The idea is to do a one-time event so that only in its word of mouth, so only those who know about it are able to come and enter it. There's going to be no social media.

There's going to be like very minimal advertising about this. It's a generally, it's sincerely just a very safe, very tight-knit space that we're hoping to create where people can just learn and open about their experiences that they have not been able to tell anybody or relate to, you know, in their lives. And so I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes. I will let you know about a launch date because we're collecting stories and we've been doing so for the past three months. Yeah, it's been very, very eye-opening so far for both. Yeah, I've spoken to some people that didn't want to say some things on air because people are going to think I'm crazy if I say that, George. And I'm like, you should lean into that.

Like, that's, you know, but it's easy for me to say that. Like, it's their story. But they'll tell it to me. And I almost cry. I'm like, that's so freaking beautiful. Like, I get it, man. It's just be, you know, the ideas of entities leaving or purging through your body. can sound so fantastical to people who may not be aware of any sort of experience like that.

And I could understand the stigma that may come with that and how that stigma can stay with you. Or if you said that online, people would never take you seriously again or this idea that they may never take you seriously again. So I'm with you. And it sounds like an awesome thing. And I wish you guys all the love and respect. I think it's a super cool thing. It's fascinating to think about it. It brings up another idea when we talk about regiments, a lot of people are familiar with, like,

like the Stamen Protocol, the Fateman Protocol. And I spoke to a young woman yesterday, Jennifer Chesick, who wrote a book called Silocybin Handbook for Women. And it begs the question, do you think we're going to see maybe protocols for women versus men? We have two different body types. And like, wouldn't it make sense if we just had different protocols for maybe different phases of life or different men and women?

Do you think we're going to be seeing that in the future? Yeah, I think it's very possible. I think somebody is going to come up with the idea and then they're going to grab that and run with it. Good. I hope it helps. Right? Sure. I mean, if it's helpful and it's helping people tailor their experiences and getting the most from this, I think that that's great.

I don't think that any two people are the exact same. I don't think that it's a one-five fits all at all. And yes, I do believe in the concept of intention. I think having a very powerful strong intention. for whatever you are using, I think will profoundly impact how it affects you and the direction that it goes. So I, yeah, I hope to see some more work like that in the future. But yes, I'm sure somebody will take that and run with it. Like, this is the only way when it's not, you know. Yeah. I'm often, like, I love, people, people may have heard this part before, but I think

it's interesting and I always love to ask this question. So forgive me if you've heard this before or anybody listening to me. I've heard this before. I'm a big fan of fiction and like dystopian novels and, you know, there's a couple cool books by Aldoushuxley. He's a lot of great books by Aldoushuxley, but the two in mention are one is Brave New World where like they take the soma and they find themselves able to take this disassociative break from a life they may not love, but it allows them to stay in that life. In some ways, it kind of sounds like an SSRI a little but it's neither here nor there. And the other book called The Island,

they use the Mokshah medicine in a way where children, you know, at a certain age, maybe going into adulthood or maybe earlier. I'm not advocating for them to say what happens in the book. But they have this scene of book where like a 12-year-old climbs this mountain and then on the top of this mountain is like a church where they sit with a mentor and they take the medicine for the first time. And they learn that they're much more than a walk from the hospital

to the graveyard and they introduced the spirit into their life in a psychedelic sort of spiritual ceremony that way. And it seems to me all this Huxley was showing us like, hey, on one hand, we could use the medicine to be productive and be in a life that we have to be in. And in another way, we could use the same medicine to live the most authentic life. Do you think that both of those ways are possible or what do you think about those two different ways of using it? That's a good question. I mean, first of all, I wish, I read that book so that I could... Oh, it's a new company.

Yeah. It sounds amazing. Yeah. Thanks so much for sharing about that. And I think, honestly, there are so many individual reasons for exploring the medicine. There's no one size fits all. I think that the possibilities of the outcomes that you can receive are endless. And we see that in this space itself.

We see so many people coming from different corners and different. ways to be able to apply these medicines for them, whether it's self-development, wellness, therapeutic value, creativity. Like, there's just so much endless. And that's what I think makes these so incredible and intriguing. So I really do feel like this will be a continued part of our, I don't know, what, intellectual evolution maybe in the future, especially with the rise of AI and technology combined.

There's just so many crazy possibilities Very interested in seeing What this next phase of our lives looks like Yeah, from that standpoint Yeah, I agree Sometimes I think that this wave of psychedelics Like if we just pan back And we look at what's happening

From like a third person point of view It seems like maybe the 50s and 60s Because like for mushrooms come in waves Right, like you feel like this wave And then it kind of subside You feel another one And I kind of feel like the first wave was like in the 50s and 60s,

and then we kind of recessed a little bit. Like, now we're coming up on this next one right here. So it's such an exciting time to be alive and look around the world and see all these possibilities that are happening. Getting to talk to people like you that are like on the forefront, like you're around the world and taking a giant bite out of life. And not only that, but not only are you consuming all these experiences,

but you're in a position where you're giving back to people and helping them. Do you think that the psychedelics help you to keep that curiosity, alive. Oh, thanks for saying that. Yes, I do. Of course. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I also go through the phases with them and how I navigate them.

But I think ultimately, yes, they do open up a number of doors. And for me, more recently, it's been exploring the psychedelics in different cultural context. So like I said, I'm very grateful that I've been able to sit with. It's like the honey queen and different groups and being able to experience their cultural ways of life. I think that has had a, I mean, I'm still honestly really integrating these experiences. I've had a few in the past couple of months, which have been very transformative. And for me, this is opening up another experience where, you know, I have to say sometimes I get a little bit tired of the narrative.

I'd be very honest about that. Working in media, working in journalism, you're consistently seeing a similar narrative, psychedelics or depression. So let's happen for whatever it is, right? But there is just so much more to learn about indigenous groups, individuals that have been using these medicines for thousands of years and what other concepts are associated with that. There's like an entire world that I haven't been tapped into.

There's hundreds and hundreds of indigenous groups that I don't know enough about that I'm now really starting to tap into in a greater capacity. And I'm so grateful to be learning about this now. So yes, I feel like this is like a new leg of my curiosity. And I hope to be able to share this information in a greater way. I work currently alongside Shakuna Institute. And so I think I'm very grateful for them to have opened up that world to me. And, yeah, hope to be sharing this information and making it a little bit more well-known, you know, in the future. Aren't you also affiliated with, like, the Asian Psychedelic Collective as well, too?

Yes, I recently was the MC, Psychedelic Science for them, which was amazing. Yes, it was very nice to be able to engage with the ACC and meet them around in person. She's so wonderful. and yeah, I think I'm just very honestly, quite honestly, just very blessed with people that I have met throughout this experience. I try to align myself with groups and companies and individuals that I feel very passionate about. Their work speaks to me. They're authentic. They're honest about their reasoning for working with these medicines.

That's kind of like my litmus test, to be honest, you know, like, yeah. And you can pick that up quite fast. And so, yeah, that has been kind of like the real true guiding light for this work now for myself, now that I'm kind of an individual entity making sure that I am working with the people that I see eye-to-eye with and that I genuinely believe are doing good work to further this industry forward. That's interesting to hear. A lot of times people talk about their psychedelic experience, but it seems to me it's more like a psychedelic. relationship because it's not just one time you're spending in an experience. It's multiple

experiences over a lifetime that make you familiar with not only yourself, but the things that you're working with. It's pretty crazy, not crazy, but beautiful to think about it. Sometimes it invites these people into your life and you can talk to someone and be like, oh, this person gets it. Like you feel as if you have shared an experience with them, even though you may not have been together, you're like, oh, I kind of get what they're talking about. It seems like this thing. Do you think that that's unique to the psychedelic experience or the psychedelic relationship? That's very cool of you to say that. I feel like this ties back to what I was saying earlier in our conversation about this individual versus community kind of lens.

I think that there's a relationship that we have with the medicine and those within our community, if we are taking it in these contexts and learning and sharing versus the psychedelic experience. which is extremely individual. Yeah. Because it's happening to you, you know. And so I really love that. I love that phrase, honestly, the psychedelic relationship, because it is an evolving relationship with ourselves,

with those within our communities, within these other facets and areas of our lives that are so essential in order to actually receive something from these experiences, you know? Like there's no real progress or no real application unless we are participating in other activities for a balanced and good life, a holistic life, you know. So, yeah, I love that. I think that's great.

I'm going to use that. Take it. It's true. I wish more people would do it. And if you just think about it, like, you can go out on a first date and have a great experience. When you're married and you love someone, you may have some very challenging experiences and then realize, I love this person even more. And like, that is the psychedelic relationship, right? because you're going to have some beautiful experiences.

You have some challenging ones. But all of them together is what makes up the relationship. And that's what makes it rewarding and beautiful. And I think it speaks to this as well. I think where we're going is we're moving away from things. And things are becoming a process. Like, I know that's kind of a, it's out there. But if you begin to play with it a little bit, like the experience, that's a thing.

But the relationship is a process. Like the human individual is a thing. All nouns are things. But stop looking at nouns as things. Start looking them as processes. And it begins to even out the rough edges that are spiky and prickly. And it really helps. I have found out of playing with this.

And it really seems to work in a lot of areas. If you just stop thinking of nouns as things, it's not a person place or thing. They're all processed. They're all in process. And it changes the way you, interact with it. It's pretty beautiful, if I may say so much. That's so cool. I love that. No, I love that so much for sure. The psychedelic process, the relationship. I think that this is, this is more like an ongoing long-term, sustainable, sustained, you know, kind of integration

that you have to your life versus a one-off experience that I'm paying five grand to go to retreat for. Right. Right. Maybe that is for some people, hey? Some people are, that is their route, but I have to say personally, I mean, I feel very dedicated to this work in my life, however it shows up. Right. And I hope to continue being able to, you know, contribute in the way that I can because I genuinely do care so much about not just the outcomes, the therapeutic relationship, self-development. I care about, you know, ideally helping others through the work that I do in whatever capacity that looks like. because, you know, I see so much potential here, and I love that. Yeah, well, I think it shines through.

Is there any psychedelics that you wouldn't do? That's a very funny question. You know, I have to say, I recently started talking more candidly about my psychedelic experiences after I kind of became my own entity. I was able to open up a little bit more about this because I'm not so corporate anymore. and I have to say it's very refreshing to be able to do that. But there's always this moment of hesitancy where I'm like, oh, God, should I say this? You know, like, is this, ugh.

But I don't mind because I think at this point it's okay for us. And I think it's also important because it's educational. That I wouldn't do. Oh, God. That's a good question. I feel like I've done a good chunk of them. So I'm trying to think, like, which one? I have a lot of questions about Ibigine and Ivigone and I've been

personally. I have not done those. That substance is substance in those worms. And I'm curious about it. I have the same. Yeah. I personally, you know, I don't think that I have enough information to have a fully developed opinion on it specifically, but because it's so, it's so helpful for those who are dealing with opioid addiction and such as very, very physically intense experience. I just wonder,

like, is that for me? Do I need this in my life? Or do we, like, save that for these centers that are doing amazing work, life-changing, like, truly life-saving work, which I respect so incredibly so, so much. And yeah, I mean, who knows, maybe one day. But yeah, how about yourself, actually? I'd love to know your answer. Yeah, like, so I was thinking, first time, I loved the way you answered that.

It was a very respectful way and mature a way to talk about a relationship with different substances can totally help you. I am. Like, I think that I am fearful of Iboga. It just seems like 36 hours. maybe if I had something in my life that I couldn't work through on like a LSD or mushrooms or something along those lines, then I would think about it. But I listen to the stories about it with reverence and respect.

Like, whoa, an amazement. And, you know, like, wow, it's all crazy. And I think it's beautiful. But for me, I think I fear that one. And I don't know, maybe it's just the short sounding vowels in there. Or, you know, I don't know what it is. But it's like, to me it's like, I'm right here, George. You know, I can hear it call to me in a way that is not threatening, but serious.

And so I take it with that sort of serious undertone. Like, okay, hey, it's not for you right now. Okay, I got you. But I'm right here, though. You know, it's interesting to think about it. Totally. I mean, it's interesting to think about for sure. And I have to say my relationship with Ayahuasca has transformed quite a lot over the years.

I mean, I think the more that I learn about this and the deeper that I go with this medicine, the more intrigued I am, but also it's frightening. Like, it's an extremely powerful substance that I think sometimes people are a little bit too casual about, you know? Like, there's a lot of jokes and memes about ayahuasca, but I hold it to a very high level of reverence as well. In the same way that, you know, people do about Iboka. I think that it is incredibly significant to local communities and indigenous communities and seeing what the possibilities are with that has kind of opened my eyes a lot. I thought that I knew until you don't know. Yeah, totally.

You know, that's just how it goes with all of them, right? But this one specifically for me has been, yeah, just quite an experience in recent months that has made me realize, you know, I have a lot of. lot of work that I personally need to do to be able to get to a place where I feel comfortable being able to explore even deeper. And I don't know how I'll ever be ready for that. I don't think anybody is ready for that, to be quite honest. So yeah, maybe I had just have to throw myself into it.

I don't know. Yeah, there's so many questions. Like, there's a great quote that says the deeper in you go, the bigger it gets. And it's just really well said because, you know, you don't know. know what you don't know. And the more you investigate, the more intricate the pattern becomes. And it is mind-blowing to think about. You know what? I guess, you know, you had some interesting and or did you have some interesting experiences at psychedelic 2023? I mean, you got to go there and see all the things happening. And from the outside, I didn't go, but it just seemed like such

a vibrant event. And I'm curious to talk to people that have gone there. What did you think about it? Yeah. Honestly, I thought it was incredible. Just what was what they were able, what maps was able to achieve was no easy seats. Like obviously the production value, everything was super high. And for me, I would look forward to seeing my friends and connecting with all of people that I haven't seen in a while. That's just my favorite part of these conferences. But just on a very basic level. Yeah, it was incredible. I mean, the level of who was able to show up and share their thoughts and their stories and who was supporting this and how quickly this is expanding. I know we all talk about that, but it was like a very good landing mark almost to see, okay, this is where we're at right now in 2023. This is who is on board and this is only going to continue accelerating very rapidly in the future. I'm curious to know, I mean, I know there was a lot of drama, people have their own opinions about all of that. I won't have to, you know, dive deep into that. I found it pretty interesting to see.

I will say, I wish there was more presence of indigenous communities and local communities to be able to share their perspective, but I also understand the logistical complications and challenges of that. I don't think that personally, I don't feel as though anybody was tokenized. during this conference. I think that there was a genuine effort put into all of that. But I think that there's a lot of work that can be done. And once we start sharing this information in a larger capacity and almost having like an even playing ground

instead of solely focused on therapeutic value, et cetera, et cetera, you know, and this much kind of dedicated to community care, dedicated to recreational youth even, and how that can be feeling in itself. because I personally agree with that. I think that's the one in the conversation is going to be a little more interesting. Yeah. Is it fair to say that when you left there,

you began to understand the magnitude of expansion. Earlier in the conversation, you were like, this thing is really catching on fire. Was it at that event or when you're leaving that event, that it really hit home? Like, okay, this is just a magnitude of order bigger than I thought. Yes. Yes, no. I mean, I think, yes, because I think when you're on the internet and, you know, we see these numbers and, you know, working with a publication previously, I would be able to see, you know, how many hits do we have, how many people are sharing or going to our website.

But yes, the numbers were fairly high. But once you start to see it in action, it's pretty incredible to see people with deep dedication and interest in these areas. And there was a lot of people that were new and very curious to this space. Maybe they were. are not super familiar, but they were able to, you know, get in there and learn more. And then there's people who are veterans, you know, these are people who have been a part of these spaces in whatever context. Maybe they're hardcore burners or something. Yeah, yeah. And they're coming into this, this with their own experience and seeing everything evolve over time. It was very fascinating to see. I'm kind of, you know, I'm accepting of all of it. Like I had said, I know there's so much protests against the commercialization, how

do you think properly. I get it. And I'm very much so of the mindset of this is happening, obviously. There's no turning back at this point. So let's just do it in the right way or as right as it can be. And if it's not something that aligns with you ethically, because there are many people who are feeling that way, who I've spoken to, then maybe this is just not the right cause anymore for them, you know. And it's more so the commercialization aspect, you know, and rather than taking kind of an educational route, learning from the local communities, this is almost a new thing. This is an entirely, in my opinion, new paradigm to something that has existed on earth for thousands of years.

And as Westerners do, we're just taking that, running with it in the way that we are, but let's just do it in the right way, as right as we can, you know. Yeah. You know, the way you explain that, as you're explaining it in my mind, I'm envisioning, you know, taking a cutting of a plant and then planning it in a new area. Like you know the environment, like is conducive, but you're not sure how it's going to grow. until like with the way you're explaining, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's totally. Like we're just, we're taking this cutting over here and we're planning it in this new

environment and like, you know, we're kind of new at it. We're hoping that it's going to produce the results that it did down here, but we're not quite sure. It's so beautiful to think about it. But yeah, I don't know. I'm so excited and hopeful and thankful for the way in which the community is unfolding in front of us. And it's, it's beautiful to get to talk to people like you and so many other cool

guests that have developed a relationship not only with the different plant medicines but have found a way to give back to the people they care about and I think it's awesome I love talking to you so it's been really really fun for me and I'm really thankful that you took some time to talk to me but before I let you go what where can people find you and what do you have coming up and what are you excited about oh thanks for asking and thanks for all of that I love doing this too this is super fun yeah um Yeah, so you can find me, I guess maybe on LinkedIn.com at slash Swati Sharma, IRL. And you can find me on Twitter as the same handle as well as Instagram. You can find me Swati.com.

I focus a little bit more on my music over there. And that's like a whole other thing. And yeah, what I have coming up, that's a good question. So I am currently kind of, yeah, continuing to work with my clients and helping to build on my agency work, which is exciting, helping psychedelic companies with their communications, marketing, branding, divine, looking to do a party in Miami, ideally for the Wonderland or hopefully in association with the Wonderland Conference. This is a whole other thing that I'm looking to develop, which is exciting because I'm finding there's a lot of synergy between the music, dance music experience and psychedelics. Let's just talk about that. Do you have some time? Do you have more time?

I want to be mindful of your time. Yeah, let's talk about that because I've asked me about that. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So something that I, yes, have been doing for a while is working in dance music. So I DJ and I love electronic music. It's a huge part of who I am.

And it's kind of like my double life. Yeah, I love it. My day-to-day, my professional life. And then I have my dance music life, which is quite honestly so formative to who I am in relation with the traveling, the psychedelic use, the self-exploration. It's all making sense now. It's all making sense.

And it brought me all around the world. Actually, a big reason I came to Mexico was because of that. And so something that my friend, Andrew Charles Edmund, and I have done in the past, we've worked on events together where we combine elements of audiovisual immersion and create spaces and experiences that are inherently very psychedelic. And the psychedelics actually enhance that experience. And so what we're looking to do is come to this and create a space where people can explore visual 3D design created through platforms like touch designer and they're projected on walls and they like cover the entire wall. It's immersive. It's crazy with music that complements these experiences. And we previously worked on this through Andrews events, the events called InView. and it's located in Detroit.

So now the idea is to take that concept and bring it into the psychedelic space where people can now enjoy this. Ideally, after conferences, we threw a party in partnership with a group called Afterglow. And that was kind of like a taste of that. And what was that going to be like?

And I got to play like a five-hour set, which was amazing. Yeah, it was amazing. And people really resonated with it. They were like, this is incredible, and it was a sober party. There was no alcohol served. We just had tons of harm reduction and resources for people to access, comfortable feeding, safe spaces.

And this is honestly my opinion, the future of dance music in many ways, of being able to integrate this kind of constructed psychedelic environment with the psychedelics themselves and creating profound experiences. And I think I might have touched on this briefly. in our conversation earlier. But I sincerely believe in the fact that recreational psychedelic use is inherently healing. And I know there's so much stigma against that. And I will be honest.

I get nervous saying this publicly sometimes. But I really do believe in the healing power because I believe when you're in this dance music environment, you're within a community setting. you're with other people who have a similar interest and they both value what you're all experiencing at the same time. And so when you are adding in that additional element of psychedelics, you can almost connect with each other more deeply, which was very cool. Because at Afterglow, for example, at the beginning, there were a lot of activities that were done to connect and meet each other within the space first. It was kind of like a combination of networking and just really associating and then building that trust. throughout the night into like a jazz party, which was very fun.

Yeah. Yeah, that's that. I can't wait to check it. I'm going to, you have to send me. I would love to hear that set. And like, I'm going to check out way more your music now. I didn't even know. I should have done some more research.

But now we're starting to talk about like, I agree too. I think that the majority of people, if they're being honest with themselves, their first forewain to psychedelics was recreation, whether it was a laser show or a music or going to the beach or a hike or something like that. I think all of us began that first date, you know, out on a recreational tour like that. And it does make sense. And it kind of harkens back to the idea that we spoke about,

about ceremonies or rituals. You could argue that that is ritualistic in nature when you have a set group of people all with the intention of having a good time or rising above something or coming together. Like, that's very ceremonial in a setting. And on top of that, you're throwing in like a frequency, Like sound is such a powerful modality too, right? Totally.

And the visual elements are just like out of this world. Light is so incredibly important to construct a space and a feeling and evoke emotion. Like all of it, all of it is so potent, you know. And I have felt this way for so long. But of course, there are risks. There's, you know, some people are concerned. What's going to happen? You know, you have to be responsible, obviously.

you know, that's why we have harm reduction in place to this. But this is something that I'm really excited to continue speaking on and exploring for myself and sharing with the psychedelic community because I don't think that people are aware of how profound music and these environments can be in healing ourselves. And they're not, you know, with a traditional therapist. And yes, it is a little taboo in a way, but I think that, you know, it's helped me develop into the person that I am and I just want to bring that into this community now along with people that I love working with that I love to listen to that I'm passionate about

and yes I can't wait for this like new life to to take hold for me yeah I think it's right around the corner do you spend like at a certain frequency I know some people look at like 432 is like a different frequency or what do you think about the different frequencies is that something worth talking about? That's interesting. Yeah, so with the music that if I'm playing like ambient music, for example, I'm not really investigating frequencies. I'm more so investigating the toneality and seeing how they align.

And just in general, you know, the elements and the textures and the melodies that all combine to create a song is so fascinating to me and how profoundly emotional is, I guess you could even say frequencies these sounds can be they can completely uh evoke you know just a feeling in somebody bring out memories like yeah it's really incredible i remember at afterglow when we were playing early on when i was starting the with an ambient sound and andrew was projected his visuals it was super emotional for many people i could see people were kind of like in awe um they were standing around just staring at the ceilings and the walls and the floor and just like whoa you know it's very captivating stuff and when you're adding in the psychedelic element that next level that's when i think

the real like actual thing can start um i know east forest that's something very similar with the music as medicine and he talks about this all the time but with us like with the idea is for us to also include the visual elements because that is super important for us as well and and how unbelievable some of these designs can be and just like mind bending, you know, and creating a feeling. Very cool. Yeah, that is. It's almost back to sense ratios too. And it's fascinating to think about the way in which sound can align, you know, our emotions with our vision or it's fascinating to think about.

It must be fascinating to experience not only from the event, but to be the person that's sort of the facilitator by playing the music. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a combined kind of like shared experience of expressing the art. And something that I'm quite passionate about is that there's often like a very spiritual elements that people include within this type of work, which I think is amazing. However, I really like the idea of being able to focus on the artistic components and how the art itself, the sound itself, without any cultural affiliations, without any sacred affiliation is able to do that because, yeah, that's kind of like what we do. We're a little bit more

interested in that. I think there's many spaces for you to be able to experience this in ceremony more traditionally, but this is kind of us hoping to not, A, appropriate, but B, also just focus on how color and sound and shape can like really create this. for people because it can. And it's like unbelievable when you, when you experience it yourself, you know. Yeah, it kind of speaks to the ideas of like synesthesia. Like we're under a deep psychedelic journey.

You can see colors and hear sounds. In some ways, you're providing people that opportunity, whether they're in the psychedelic experience or not. Like that's a, and you could probably only do that if you've had that experience. So the part and parcel it sounds like. Yes, I think ultimately the psychedelics are an enhancement to the senses, right? They enhance your sights, found, smell, taste, everything. Touch is a big one too.

And I'm, I don't know, I guess I just live in the state of like heightened sensory, I don't know, ability or something. Right, right. I just really enjoy, and I'm not always my goodness, by the way. I feel like I just kind of really appreciate and enjoy all of these components. and I can see how us creating an environment in constructing that for people can be just not only entertaining and exciting, kind of like meowel,

but just also just beneficial for being able to understand different parts of ourselves that we didn't even realize, you know? Maybe we're interested and compelled to explore a certain sound or, you know, yeah. And so I can't wait to see what this all looks like put together. Yeah, hope that you guys can make it in the future. And I'm hoping I can speak on this a little bit more, too,

because it has been so, you know, fulfilling for me. Yeah. In the event the party in Miami happens, you come on here before, we should talk a lot about it. So that, like, people that are listening to this can have an opportunity to go or whatever event you have coming up, we should do it. You know, I'm often reminded of they say that smell is one of the closest ties to memory. And people can probably do a thought experiment

or like they'll smell a perfume and they'll think of a person or something like that. But I think music has got to be a close second because everybody remembers hearing a song where they were sometimes. There's a great commercial where, you know, I remember seeing the thing like, oh, yeah, where this guy is playing the music and he's moving through the dial of the radio.

And every time a song comes on, like an image of like a person shows up. But for a lot of us, we can play back a song and think of a moment. Are you conscious of that? Like when you're spinning music, like, okay, I want to create this moment for people. Or how does that play out in the world? Yeah.

No, that's great that you say that for sure. I mean, a lot of these songs have sentimental value and meaning to me personally. And, yeah, being able to play that often takes me back to maybe that performance, but often it can take me back to maybe when I first heard that song and my emotional feelings towards it. I've had moments where I get very emotional playing this music. Like it's very emotional stuff, I think. And I can only imagine what it's like for the artists who are also creating this and then putting it out into the world.

I'm working on actually my first release right now, which I'm very excited about. Yay, congratulations. Thank you. I'm just excited because I haven't ever put anything out into the world. I've always felt like my work was not ready, but I'm finally pushing myself to do that. And so I'm in the process of creating an ambient track for a compilation in Mexico City

from group called Antimateria Sorona. And yes, I will let you know how that goes. But yeah, that's kind of a process that I'm excited about telling me to do as long. Yeah, you should be super excited about that. The art of creating is beautiful. And if you're, if you are creating beautiful things, you should be sharing them with people, because that's part of it, right? Yes, absolutely.

I agree. I think creating and being able to put yourself out there and sharing what is meaningful to you is so incredibly important and has helped me develop as an individual. And so I hope that people didn't also utilize different medium, whatever it is, to just share, you know, and put yourself into that. next level and that next step and seeing what they're able to accomplish and create because everybody is capable of creating it's just how much do you nourish that um that curiosity in you you know yeah it's a great point what would you tell like a younger version of yourself oh that's a good question that's a broad question yeah right it's specifically regards whatever yeah like a like someone like a younger version of yourself like if you could go back

and say hey let me put you aside younger so What do you? Let me tell you this. Like, what would you tell? Sure. Yeah, that's a good question. I guess, hmm, just, just do it. I don't, I don't want to like reference any, like, you know, anyway. Just being able to put yourself out there, I think, is like so incredibly important. Because I did have a lot of self-down. Like I said, my first release, even though I have worked in dance music for half a decade, you know? Like I have always held myself back from the doubt, the personal limitations and the doubt of what I'm able to accomplish. And then once you start nourishing that and exploring, a whole world opens up to you. And the fact that I'm able to integrate my passions, my career, my personal passion, and create something for others is something that honestly five years ago I wouldn't have even imagined for myself.

But now I'm able to do that. And I just hope that others can hear that and resonates with them, that they can see that, you know, truly, if you do want something, you can create that reality for yourself. And that's exactly the mission that I'm on personally for myself, you know, like everything should be authentic to what I choose and desire to bring into the world. And if it's not, then I don't think I want to really be a part of it. That's beautiful. I admire it because I think that, you know, I think it was Gandhi who said, you should try to be the change you want to see in the world. And if you want to send a message to people, you got to live that life. You know, you have to walk to walk and you will inspire people.

And it's inspiring talking to you. And I'm confident that people out there listening are inspired by it. And I'm sure that the music will have the same effect. So I'm super thankful. So I'm glad that you had a little bit more time because I was like, oh, I can't let this music go right here. It's so interesting. Yeah. It is.

Thank you. I really appreciate you letting me talk about that because I'm feeling so charged and energized by it. I feel like it's just something that is so important to me. And this is like a new, it's like a new life in a way for me to kind of investigate this. And I can only see what possibilities exist for not just myself. Like I mean for this space, you know, I just want to be able to share something new and different.

and that is just like awe-inspiring. And so this is kind of like a match made in heaven. So I'm excited for that. Yeah, I think that this happens to people. I think that the same way if you try to jam, like if your foot is growing and you try to jam it into your old shoe, like it's painful and it hurts, you know? Or maybe you can think about it like a rebirth.

Like a lot of the times we die and then we're reborn throughout our life. And you have to embrace that voice. that voice like that that that song that sings to you about living a life of purpose and meaning and if you hear that voice or you're excited about something and you don't explore it and part of you shrivels up and dies the same way that a flowering vine crawls up a tree and knows to it unfurl its flowers on july 9th at 1237 so too does that voice in your heart know what's right for you and if you follow that instruction you too will bloom like that you. that flowering vine.

And like when you started, I could see your face light up and you're like, oh, yeah, this music. And I was like, whoa, look at this, you know. And I can still see it now. Like, it's beautiful. And I, that's what I want. If I could, if I could amplify great ideas, that's the ideas that I would amplify is getting to talk to someone in real time who's exploring this new side of them that's

developing into something they love. And in doing so, becoming the person that they're supposed to be, I think it's beautiful. And I'm stoked you share it with me. Thank you. Oh, thank you. You phrase that so beautifully. I really do appreciate that. And yeah, I'm glad to hear that there are more people that are doing.

Yeah. Because this is kind of our opportunity to do so. And it's a privilege that I recognize that I'm so grateful to have that I hope, you know, stays consistent in my life. So, yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's the psychedelic renaissance that's allowing people to explore this side of it. Maybe these are the new opportunities, you know, with all this. talk of war and production and layoffs, look at this beautiful side that's emerging.

People finding the creative spirit that inspires them to become authentic versions of themselves. That's what I see happening here, whether it's in Denver, whether it's in Brazil, or whether it's in Mexico City, people all over the world are becoming better versions of themselves. And I think that psychedelics can be a catalyst for that. Totally. Yes, absolutely. I think you phrase that's so perfectly and, you know, with the internet and being able to work wherever we are and live in a way that we want to if we choose to. It's like very, very cool to open up those possibilities for ourselves.

That's true. So one more time, where can people find you at if they're looking for you or they're looking for your music? Where can they find you? Where's the best place to go? Sure. Okay. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Swati Sharma, IRL is the URL.

same on Twitter and then on Instagram it's Swati.LU. Okay, perfect. And when, nice, and when do you think the release is going to come out

again? What are you shooting for? What's the release date? That's going to be coming out next month in August towards the end of the month. Big month, okay.

Well, that's what we got for today. Swati, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. You're an awesome person and it's inspiring and I'm really thankful that you took time

to talk to me today. So that's all we got for today. Hang on for one second. I'm going to hang up, but I just want to talk to you briefly afterwards. Ladies and gentlemen, Swati Sharma, check out the music, check out everything she's putting down. I think you'll love it. And that's all we got for today. Aloha.

Thanks for tuning in.