TrueLife - Tanya Cole Lesnick - The Art of Alignment

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://instagram.com/tanyathetherapist?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==https://www.tanyacole-lesnick.com/The core of my philosophy both in my practice and in my life can be understood through this quote. My work centers around helping clients achieve inner and outer alignment so that they may lead lives which honor their truest selves, which is not an easy feat. Our lives are impacted by many powerful factors: childhood conditioning, the culture we live in, the “rules” we follow, our inner critics, our relationships, our energy levels, etc. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Two Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. We're coming up on Friday. It's Thursday. I hope the sun is shining, the birds are singing,

hope the wind is at your back. I have a great guest for you today and a great show, the one and only, Tanya Cole Lesnick, with over 30 years of experience, a psychotherapist, a coach, an empathic listener, a someone with a heart of gold who's been through her own tragedies and finds great joy in helping other people

find their way through the thorny path of life. I'm so excited to have you here today, Tanya. How are you feeling today? I am feeling great. Thank you, George. What a nice intro. And so happy to be here. Yeah. Well, you know, when I was looking through some of your information, what really attracted me to your story was that you have had like some of your own battles. And I think that those are the best coaches. Those are the best people. And those are the best people we can look to to help others move through their obstacles. And I like to start off with like an origin story sometimes. So I was wondering, maybe you can share about how. you've got to be where you are today. Yeah, I love telling this story. I think I like it because it's so human and I feel like by sharing it, people maybe can just appreciate their own journeys a little differently. I think we can be so hard on ourselves when we struggle. So yeah, so when I was in my

mid-20s, I was really struggling to have a long-term love relationship. I knew it was something I wanted for myself. I imagined myself getting married one day and having kids one day. And my relationships were not lasting. And I didn't know how I was going to get from where I was to this dream that I had. And at the time, because this was over 30 years ago, I felt a lot of stigma connected to the idea of therapy. And I was very dismissive of my issues and thought that maybe they weren't legitimate enough for me to get the kind of support that somebody might get from therapy. But as the issue didn't resolve, my longing intensified. And so at some point, I was like, you know what?

I don't really care. As long as it's helpful, I will take that route. So I got a few names of therapists, and I met with this woman, Bonnie, who helped me feel immediately heard and seen the space itself was a very healing from really the first moment of even making the appointment. So that was a relief. And one of the things that she suggested I do is add group therapy to the mix. So she did both. I saw her individually. She wanted me to go into a group therapy situation. And the thought of that really scared me because I was being much more vulnerable with her than I had been with other people. And the thought of opening myself,

up that way to people at that time I didn't know was scary, but she thought it would be helpful and I was building some trust in her. And it was kind of intriguing. So I decided to do it. And I did both. I saw her still individually and then I joined this group. And it was in that process of connecting to other people on their inner journeys. They were doing their own sort of personal growth, they had their own things that they were longing for, that I started to shift how I saw myself. So one of the things that I had done when I was trying to explain to myself what might be in the way is I made up a story. And that story was that perhaps there was a real part of me that was unlovable. And so that was a story that I carried into this group

situation, thinking that maybe that was true about me. And that was some of the fear. I was really afraid that that would be the story that somebody might see as true and call me out and say, well, you know what? You actually are unlovable. That was the real fear. And as I was building relationships with people in this group over time and getting to know their journeys and realizing that I thought they were amazing and they had some similar insecurities to mine, it helped put a crack in my story and it helped me no longer explain to myself that that was what was in the way. And I kind of learned more about just my humanness and what that means and what it means to have needs and all of that. And it helped me show up.

differently. And from that experience, as I was continuing to meet men at that time in my life, pretty early on, I met a man who became my husband. And he and I ended up celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary last September. So now it's almost been 31 years. And we have two grown daughters. So that thing that I longed for happened. But the part that I hadn't anticipated was really connecting to myself in a much more compassionate, loving, deeper way. And it allowed me to start to navigate through the world in a way that was much more fulfilling. And then I decided to leave my career, which I think I said it was a graphic designer at

the time. I left that career, went back to school and became a psychotherapist and personal development coach at that time and have been doing that work, like you said, technically for the professional part, almost 30 years, but started the schooling more than 30 years ago. And in that work that I do, it's my greatest honor and wish to help other people have transformational experiences of their own so that they can more fully connect to themselves. It's such a beautiful story. And I got a ton of questions and I want to I'm looking forward to a question later when I ask you about the documentary film you made but before I get to that question why do you think it is that in group work we discover

our individual self yeah I feel like we see ourselves reflected back from other humans you know like there's a lot of there's a lot of nuance we're all different We're all individual, and yet there are so many things that we also overlap with other people on. We have similar limiting beliefs. We have similar ideas that we grew up thinking the world was a certain way from the messaging that we each got growing up. And while they might be specifically different, but there's a lot of overlap in each of these stories that we carry. So seeing ourselves, I think is probably one of the most. powerful parts of group and touching some of those deeper spots that we might go into a setting,

not realizing that we're carrying something, and then somebody will speak about something that resonates so strongly. And then that helps us connect to a part of ourselves. I love language, and I love listening to certain words that find their way into the conversation. And earlier in the first story that you told, you would talk about part like a crack, There was a crack that happened. And I had this question. Sometimes I think that, you know, we're all flawed. And there's a whole, some people say things like there's a hole in my heart,

or I felt broken or I was incomplete. But all of that language finds its way into this idea that maybe there's supposed to be that crack. Maybe you can't learn some things. Maybe only some things can develop inside of you. What do you think? Yeah, I love that. I mean, even the language of flawed, because I think I very deliberately don't even, I kind of make the distinction that we're not flawed. We're human and there's a difference.

But yes, I mean, we're all being human means that we're not going to do things perfectly and smoothly and all of that. Yeah, I think that there is some depth of learning that happens when we have these struggles. There's, there's, I've heard this thing talked about and I don't scientifically know what the actual thing is, but about butterflies and as they are sort of becoming butterflies from the caterpillar and they're in the cocoon, that if you open up the cocoon for them to help them out, I've heard they don't thrive. I've heard they die. But without that struggle, they don't become butterflies. And I think that that's a really fascinating thing to think of that in the struggle, in sort of

the stuff that we kind of get stuck on, it does bring some. depth and richness to our experience as we move through them. Yeah, I love that. And it's the same too with the snake shedding their skin when they find a rough patch where they have to like wiggle out of their skin to grow and they're vulnerable there because the birds can come down and get them. And, you know, there's a really great book called The Obstacle is the Way. And it sounds a lot to like what we're talking about.

It is having the courage to confront this humanness or this, this, maybe. it's an opportunity instead of a tragedy it's an opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to think about. So maybe we can talk about you had this career and then you decided, you know what, I'm going to work on this documentary. I'm going to take a chance.

Or maybe you can share that story. Yeah. It's interesting because that was also another pivotal moment in my life. So I made this little documentary a couple of years ago now. And it really is the story that I just shared with you all, this story of me kind of just connecting to myself going through this. And I made the documentary, which just that alone was so interesting for me to really sit with that because when I went through group and therapy initially, I did feel a lot of stigma

about it and didn't share that with a lot of people. Only the very inner group in my life got to know I was doing this kind of journeying because I felt some shame about receiving this kind of support and felt like even though I was seeing myself as more human, it still felt vulnerable. So the fact that I was in this process telling this story and I started this process thinking, huh, maybe I could use a professional video and was starting to explore that. I love group. I wanted to help people see that it's a safe thing to come to a group and it's scary.

So I went into this experience wanting to do a professional video. And as I spoke to the people who were going to do it for me, who were friends of my daughters actually grew up with my daughter and I was talking to her about and then she brought somebody else into the project, they started to talk about the idea of doing documentary format, which, God, it made my heart. It was just, and this is one of those things where I wasn't really expecting it to kind of evolve this way, but I started to follow my heart. And so that was part of the conversation.

I didn't know if that was the wisest use of my time and my money, but I knew I was excited and decided to do it. So on so many levels, one, the excitement, two, that I was going to create this story that I used to be afraid to share with people. And now I was going to put it out there into the world with some real pride in that journey. And so that was such a transformation to be able to do that as well. And to tap into, I said that I had left graphic design. That was something I had very deliberately done. But I wasn't really connecting to that creative part of myself as much as would be the best honoring of who I am at the core. And so coming back to a creative project like that was really exciting for me.

And then there was another part too, because at the time, I was working for somebody else. It was a creative project I wanted to do independently. And my boss at the time was really open to that kind of thing. And I loved that. But while I was doing the filming of the documentary, I had this little voice that showed up inside my head that said, maybe it's time for you to go back out on your own because my career had both. I had been working for other people at times, working for myself at times. And that was a little inconvenient because I was actually what I thought was in my dream job. I really loved this job that I had at

the time. But there was a part of my own voice that just by the nature of working for somebody else that doesn't get as fully expressed as it does when you're really fully the, you know, the top decision maker about everything. And so that led to yet another transformation in my life where I ended up leaving that job and starting to grow this beautiful business and starting the process of guesting on podcasts. So it's been a whole other journey, which has been really exciting. There's so much there, you know, this idea, but I think it all,

points to one of your, one of the major topics that I think you're really successful at and the first time I've really explored it is that this idea of, sorry, my cat's out of control, this idea that creativity and listening to your inner voice are maybe the ways in which we can begin to balance our inner and outer alignment. You know, when you talk about creativity, there's something that happens in the human condition. When we create something, this thing just lights up in us. I honestly feel like that's what we're all here for. We're all creators.

We all have this gift, but if we nurture it and we listen to that inner voice that's trying to help us crack that egg of creation, or we listen to that inner voice that's gently whispering in our ear that we're good enough and we're beautiful, and we should try to translate that vision into reality. All of a sudden, this thing grows in us. It lights up inside of us, right? Maybe you can talk a little bit about the inner and outer alignment and creativity and the voice inside.

Yeah, it's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that in terms of necessarily creativity because I think I think, oh, I'm creative, but not other people have their other things. I think everybody's got this inner magic. But I think you're right. Like there is a form of creativity, regardless of what it is. We all have the different things that we gravitate towards. But like that thing where we are used.

our full voice and we're putting it out there in the world and we're allowing ourselves to be fully expressed and we allow ourselves to be seen. Yeah. And I think that there's so much magic that lies in there. And I think when people give themselves permission and the space and embark on those journeys of continuing to check back in with yourself and see what you want and need along the way, it's, you know, we become so sparkly as a way. We become so sparkly as a word that I often say. People who really do that, I feel like they sparkle. And there is this inner, outer alignment. I think it really gets something for us in our quality of life because there's a lot more flow that happens. We're not as much, when we're out of alignment, there's a lot of mental

energy that happens where maybe there's resistance and there's resentment maybe because we're not honoring ourselves. We're getting depleted. We're getting exhausted. We're not liking some things that we're doing. So we've got this like chatter in our heads that are like commentating all along the way as we're doing these things. But when we're in alignment, there's much more flow. There's much more synergy. We're connecting more genuinely to the people we connect with along the way. And that can be felt in our energy.

And then our energy, I feel like when we're in that space gets really maximized. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I've noticed that I get to, I'm very fortunate in a lot of ways. I get to talk to a lot of really interesting people like yourself. And I noticed that people that seem to be in that flow state, it seems like there's always like these little synchronicities that happen. Like you look at your clock and it's 444 or you think something and then all of a sudden

you hear it somewhere else. And it's like that to me is a symptom. It is a sign that you are filled with the desire to complete the things you need to to complete or it seems to me that you are in that creative mode right there. And I think that that may be a sign that you're in balance, right? That you're beginning to understand what it is that helps you create, what it is that makes you a happy person, what it is that keeps you in balance. Yeah, I think that's true. I think when you're in that state, when you lose time, that's sort of, yeah, the definitions of being in flow and sort of we're just so in it and in that moment. And in that

moment. And yeah, I think life satisfaction is just so much more intense when we live that way because we're much more fully engaged and present and sort of in sort of not questioning ourselves so much. Do you think that that state, like as someone who works with people all the time and you find yourself in that state, do you think that that state is contagious? And is that a methodology that you use to help people? Is it contagious? That's an interesting. I mean, isn't it? I know. Yeah. I mean, for sure, I think it's inspiring. Whether or not sort of there's, I think for sure people can witness it and it will connect to a longing. I think if it is not what somebody is experiencing, they can see what's going on with the other person. And again, that's part of what I think is so powerful about group.

because if you're not there yet, but somebody that you're connected to is demonstrating what that feels like and you can witness them kind of being in that state, we can see each other sparkle or be more embodied or be more connected to their lives and experience more joy and all of that. And that definitely can help us long for it and then start to tap into our own version of that for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so excited for the future because I really believe believe that the world of mental health today is on the cusp of a revolution. And I think that if we begin to have the courage to see the mental health and the optimization of the human genome or the optimization of the human condition,

we can fundamentally change the way we do things. And I think when you see someone sparkling, like you said, when I see you sparkling, like I want some of that. And like it rubs off on me. Like think about the way of sparkles of glitter come off of a doll. So too does that glitter come off. off of you. And I think it can be contagious. I think when you're around people that have a zest and a passion for life, you start thinking, what is this person on? I want some of that. You do. You're

around them and you start picking up little mannerisms. Maybe it's just, maybe you start repeating a few phrases. All of a sudden, those phrases become inner dialogue. And then those interdialogue goes out to their relationship. And I think as one of us gets better, all of us get better. And maybe that's what's going on in a group. Maybe that's some of the things that you're doing at some these awesome retreats that you have is that you are shining a light onto the what is possible for the human condition. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I mean, as you're saying more about sort of the contagiousness idea.

And I think I know the word that I mentioned earlier, this idea of synergy because I also feel like you're sparkling as well. And there's something about like you being in your alignment, me being in my alignment and us connecting in that space can just, it. just brings this energy that's heightened, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a heightened state of awareness.

And maybe it's that awareness that allows us to identify the problems or the things we need to work on. Because so often when you get up, people find themselves in these routines where they get up, make breakfast, drop your kids off at school, go to work for 15 hours. They come home and they're so burned out. They almost have like these blinders on. Not that they want to have those on. But they have found themselves conditioned to live a life of mediocrity. And that's what bothers them is that they know there's so much better. They believe they are.

And it just slowly kills you inside if you don't feed or if you don't allow yourself to understand that you do. You are the greatest. You are the most beautiful. You have a gift that if you're willing to work on it, sky's the limit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I've been talking about recently and I've been using language as sway because I think I know you were saying you really like language, I do as well.

And I think the more we can sort of make it accessible and easily understandable, the more we can use it. So I've been recently talking about this idea of energetic clutter and that we all have stuff that takes up space in our psyches. And if we're not paying attention to it, it can run the show. So things like limiting beliefs. I'm thinking of the scenario that you just described, limiting beliefs that keep us sort of following along, certain patterns in our lives that originally got developed from childhood. Maybe there were somebody else's beliefs in our cultures. And we believe that there are certain shoulds in there, certain have-doss.

And if we don't question those, yeah, we'll continue on saying, well, I've got to just do it this way. This is, you know, I've got to suck it up. This is the way work goes, you know. And this idea of starting to say, all right, but maybe there's another way. And to give yourself that time and space and ability to start to explore, well, what could another way look like? Yeah. And this idea of energetic clutter, I think what happens is it will take away our ability to connect to our intuition, to our true hearts if we're not careful because it does.

It can take up so much space. If we think we have to take care of everybody else before we can get back to ourselves or we have to please others. or we have to please others or we have to be productive at all times, we can just be so depleted. We don't even know what our hearts want. Yeah. And if we look at the world of our life, if we look at our life we live as a series of patterns,

once you begin to allow that energetic clutter to become a pattern in your life, it gets stronger and stronger and stronger and probably becomes a habit at some point in time. You know, another way to say it is, if you don't listen to that inner voice, it stops talking to you. Yeah. You know, but it's easy to reconnect. If you just take time and you can, and I know people have kids and they have jobs and they have bills and they got stressed.

But if you could just find, maybe start off of five minutes a day just to sit and think about silence. Just think about that for a minute and things will slow down. And all of a sudden, you'll hear that you'll hear your heart sing in a way that makes sense to you. I believe there's something magic in that, right? Yeah, I love what you just said about, like, even though we can follow these patterns and, like, lose ourselves in some of these patterns, yeah, it's really not that hard to start to reconnect. And it's, I think it's that belief.

Like, oh, yeah, five minutes will make a difference. It absolutely will. And to give yourself time, to nurture that and give time and space for that and trust that that little by little, you'll start to reconnect and start to hear what your heart wants if you listen. So this brings me to this idea. You know, it seems to me that when you spoke about group and you talked about how powerful that is, it almost seems to me what you're speaking to is the reimagining of ceremony.

Because it seems like in the Western world, we have. done away with rites of passage and ceremony and when you find yourself in a group setting, having the courage to not only express some of the things that you've been stigmatized about or you self-stigmatized about, but you're getting to see yourself in the other. And it sounds so ceremonial to me. Like there's real power in that, right? Yeah, for sure. And it's the group itself while it's happening, but there's also something we carry.

When we're in a group situation like that, I know. because I've had the experience in other people in my groups have talked about it as well. Like when we go out into our lives and do some of the things that we talked about together, we feel the support from each other because we know that we've got kind of a team of people that are there for us. So even though we're alone handling some of this stuff, we really do feel that ongoing support. It's in there's such a sense of camaraderie when you share things with people and you put yourself in a place of vulnerability because that's where the real growth is, right? It's like, hey, here's this thing I'm kind of ashamed of. I can't believe I'm going to tell you all this.

Someone's like, I have that exact same problem. Here's what I've been thinking. You're like, oh my God, that's what I was thinking. And then all of a sudden you go from living a life of self alienation to like, wait a minute, I'm connected to everybody. And you know what? Maybe if I can take the words of Gandhi and try to become the change that I want to see in the world, watch out. Then that light kind of blossoms in you. People are like, man, why is the person so bright? It gives me goosebumps. I love it. Yeah. I love that too. And I think one of the most beautiful things that I get to experience being doing the work that I do is I get to be in these very sort of vulnerable conversations with people. They let me into their vulnerable space. So I get to see. see all the time. I'm not alone. I'm not alone on a regular basis in a way that's not typical. Most people don't get to see that as regularly. So that helps me for sure, no, I'm not alone, but I'm not always in that space of being the one to be vulnerable and put that out there. And so

I make sure to have that set up in my life as well. I attend retreats and get different kinds of coaching support or whatever I might need along the way so that I also can be the one that puts myself out there and being vulnerable. You know, I do share parts of myself when I'm working with other people, but I need to be mindful about it not being too much about me since I am in a different role in that setting. But yeah, there's something about, I went on a retreat in Italy about, I'm going again in September. So last September, I went on this retreat and I remember like really feeling vulnerable about something about sort of wanting to fit in, but also wanting to honor myself and trying to find that space. And I spoke to it in a way that really resonated for

people. And some people responded to that during the time we were doing the workshop, but other people came to find me later and said, oh, what you said, it really spoke to me. And And that's what happens. Like, yeah, we all can hear each other. Stuff resonates. And that feeling of knowing that this is safe here to go into that space. And people understand it. And people understand me.

And I'm not flawed. I am dealing with some of this human stuff that can kick her butts sometimes. It is. You know, when I think about that, sometimes I have a problem with, like, the word retreat. Because it seems like maybe. like maybe people should be going to a confrontation because it seems to me like that's what you should be confronting

the very thing that scares you. And because I'm so big on words, I'm like, man, here's a person that is a little bit that's really trying to work on themselves and we're going to let them retreat. No, we're going to let them confront it. Maybe it's a summit. We're going to go to the summit and solve this problem

or maybe it's a confrontation or something like that. Yeah, yeah, or facing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's a tricky one. And another one that for me was difficult to do and understand is the word surrender.

Because I think in the Western world, we find that that word can have a negative connotation. But I think if you sit with it long enough, at least for me, my definition of surrender went from something that an army does in a war to get from giving up to understanding. I can't solve this with what I have. And this is out of my hands. I can't try to control something and it's driving me crazy. I should surrender to this idea that there's a bigger plan. That's a tough one to get through too, I think. Yeah, yeah, I think for sure.

I'm thinking of other words as well. Yeah. I feel like the word selfish gets a real bad rap because I think it's this idea that it's at other people's expense where you're really trying, I mean, I think the goal is to really honor yourself. But I know you and I both talked about loving language and it is something. that I work on with my clients because I think the more they can put things in language that resonates for them, whatever it may be, the better. And so that they really can tap into

their own beliefs and honor those beliefs and be in alignment inside and out. So I think language is really important. And to question maybe some of those things that feel like maybe get dismissed by It's just even this retreat idea like, oh, I don't really need a rest. But, yeah, I mean, that is not the full picture there. There's a lot of facing. The retreats that I've been doing more recently, we've been calling them deep reset. I love it. Yeah, because it really is about figuring out some of the stuff in our way and starting to shift some of that.

So, yeah, it is tricky. So I've been thinking a lot about self-love. Maybe that's something that's almost synonymous with selfish. Like selfish has this negative connotation. But self-love, here's a whole different way to look at a scenario. Are you trying to find something beautiful about yourself and taking time to do it? Because there's nothing selfish about that. Finding a way to create a space for others to grow in is self-love.

And that's what you're kind of doing, right? Yeah, for sure. I think I work with sort of a lot of moms, I think, struggle with this a lot because they have kids and feel like, all right, well, I got to take care of my kids. So I'll come back to myself later. And don't always recognize how important it is for our kids to see us as moms taking really good care of ourselves and what that looks like and what that does for us. And so many moms struggle with that. And so, yes, I mean, to help people learn that taking care of yourself is not selfish. I don't usually call it selfish, but I think people do feel like, oh, if I go and do this thing for myself when my kid needs help with their homework, then am I being selfish?

And to really help people see how important it is to take care of ourselves and to show our kids what that looks like. I love that idea. I love, as of recently, I've only begun to learn about some of these ideas in somatic healing where we look at ourselves and our relationships like containers. When you talk about being a mom and like taking care of yourself or being a dad and taking care of yourself. Yeah. But thinking as yourself as a container and your relationship as a container, that's pretty powerful, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. It's interesting what you're saying. Seeing yourself and your relationship, your relationship with yourself? are you saying or relationship, sort of the partnership, the co-parenting relationship, or all of the above. Like a babushka doll, like those Russian dolls where you put them apart, you know what I mean? Yeah, yep, all the different layers.

Yeah. Yeah. So important because if you don't address those things, then even if nothing is ever said, energetically stuff gets felt. If somebody's feeling depleted all the time, that is felt. If somebody's cranky or, and look, we all have. moods and moments and, you know, we're humans. So it's not that that's never okay. But if there's a pattern of like, oh, I feel resentful, I'm always doing everything and that gets played out again and

again, whatever it might be, I think that is something that impacts people around you and they feel that. And so anyway, just a bid for making sure you know that self-care stuff is not selfish. It's critical and important and to figure out what that even looks like because sometimes a nap could be a form of self-care and sometimes a nap could be a form of avoidance. And so really learning about ourselves and learning how to assess what do we need and what helps us replenish and re-energize and all of that, that process is what I have dedicated my life to helping people do, start to learn what are the nuances for you and what are the different layers and how can you honor yourself? What does that look like?

It's interesting to me to get to hear it in that aspect. I'm curious. I've been hearing a lot about this idea of generational trauma and it's kind of a newer idea to me, but it seems like it seems in some ways it's a game changer for an individual to realize some of the patterns they have maybe due to an event that their grandmother had, a certain sort of epigenetic fear that was past, down. What do you think about that idea? Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of what the limiting beliefs grow out of. I think that's even what I was saying about present time. If we're doing

something again and again and feeling resentment in our bodies that other people feel it. And so if we look ahead at other generations and a parent or a grandparent was experiencing you know, some of those feelings of resentment or went through my mother grew up in England and she had a lot of trauma from having gone through the war. And so there was like a hypervigilance about things like food and anxiety would get triggered from that. So as a kid growing up with a mother who had some of those reactions, we felt a lot of her anxiety that got triggered, which often played out as anger and rage.

And so that impacted all of us. And so that was some of the unlearning that I had. to do. But yeah, I mean, that's what she was bringing down from her experiences growing up and had a huge impact, as we all have, you know, the stories that we have sort of impacted by from our own families and generations. What does the process of unlearning look like for you? The process of unlearning first is starting to name it, starting to, and you may not have the whole name. Like the insights and the understanding can come in bits and pieces. So I think I often talk to people about going in at the pain points. So some of what I described about like feeling

resentment, feeling irritable, things like that, that can be a great place to start. Like, okay, there's this pattern that exists in my life. It's interfering with my quality of life. I don't want this to be as big a part of my life. I don't really get it. And so starting to go into those spaces, starting to track, when do they come up, what else is going on? What are some of the thoughts that are going along with that? And then when those layers, you get a little bit better understanding of those layers, maybe going back, like, when do I remember this happening when I was a kid? What might that be connected to? What was some of the messaging that I experienced? So it's a lot of peeling away the layers, trying to understand and starting to name.

And then when you do start naming it, then I think that can be really helpful in not following the impulses. So let's say I shared a little bit about my mom having this pattern of anger and rage. And so I think that was part of my story, that it was unlovable piece. That was part of what impacted that story as well. I learned people pleasing tendencies, partly from that. And so I learned how to not rock the boat, how not to fully show up, because I didn't want to set her off. And later, you know, it wasn't safe to set anybody off. So that was some of my messaging that needed changing and catching myself.

Oh, I'm going into this people pleasing state. Oh, yeah, that's that thing I do. Oh, that doesn't serve me. Oh, that's my tendency. So the more we know ourselves, the more we don't have to just follow those things that are not serving us. And we can remind ourselves as we start to name them and know where they come from, remind ourselves like, oh, yeah, that's a story. And that's not really what I need to follow right now. I love hearing that.

Thanks for that. in some ways it seems to me like an explorer finding new territory and beginning to this is a deciduous tree or this plant is dangerous or that's a squirrel. You know what I mean? That's right. You start gaming things. You start getting comfortable with the environment. Yeah, for sure.

And I think, you know, I was just thinking even as I was sharing that story, I was thinking, yeah, but there is subtruth to if I stop doing some of the people pleasing stuff that I've done, you know, along the way, might people. be annoyed and frustrated with me? Absolutely. So it's not that there's no truth to the fact that there are going to be some kind of impact from me shifting some of that. And it could be negative, but also deciding it's more important for me to honor myself anyway. And if somebody has a hard time, you know, depending on the relationship, that can be something that gets processed and something that gets healed between two people that have a relationship or not. It depends on who the person is,

whether or not you're going to give that time and energy towards that. But I think part of that is developing some comfort with that understanding that I need to come back to myself again and again and honor myself. And other people might not love how I do that. It's very true. It's very true. And I know in some of the struggles that I've had in my life, I've found myself falling into the despair and the cries of, why me? This is so hard. But the way I've combated that is like, yeah, it should be hard. Like all growth is hard. If you want to become a better version of yourself, you're going to have to struggle. And if you think about your foot being jammed into a shoe that's four sizes too small, that hurts. So you're growing, you have to put it, you got to make a bigger shoe. You got to have a big. You got to have a big. bigger environment. You have to push the boundaries of what is possible so that you can become not only better for yourself, but better for the family and better for the planet. And if you fight it, the problem is in the resistance. The problem is in the, well, if I know she'll love me if I just become this, right, just do that. And if you can learn to see that in your life,

you can be like, oh, it's me. I'm this problem. You know what I mean? Like, you're connected to it. Yeah. It's crazy to think about, but it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking as you were talking this idea, often I'll be working with somebody and there's a real, I think, longing to get to this place of smooth sailing. Yeah.

But that's not a thing. Like this idea of smooth sailing, I mean, if you are in just this smooth sailing situation where there are no ups and downs, then you're probably pretty disconnected. And not to say that you don't have flow and quality of, life, but to really be able to know that part of human means there's going to be lost. There are going to be days that feel harder than other days. And you were also talking about, you know, getting into the space sometimes of why me, one of the things that I've learned to embrace is that discomfort is part of transformation.

And so it's like I get a little bit excited sometimes when somebody's going through, uncomfortable stuff and they don't always get it. But because I see like, yes, you're touching some deeper stuff, some tender spots. And by even going there, it's already a sign that growth is happening. And that's really exciting. But what can be tricky, I just did a post about this. What can be really tricky is understanding discomfort and understanding that sometimes it is a sign that growth is happening. Sometimes it's a sign that you're out of alignment. And how do you know the difference? And then it goes back to really peeling away those layers, knowing yourself, and always staying in growth mindset so that sometimes maybe you're wrong or sometimes you're not sure in giving yourself time and space to see what comes up from your heart with each period of discomfort.

So do you like even being out of alignment is growth in a way though, right? Because you have to learn that you're out of alignment. That's right. For sure, yeah. And that's kind of what I'm saying is like it could be either. So you need to know enough that it could be one or the other and to start to explore that to figure out what the answer is for you. Absolutely. Knowing that is really helpful. And it shows that you know yourself. You're starting to know yourself. Yeah. What are some techniques? I know a lot of people that seem to rely on the Socratic method of asking questions when they're working with people who are finding themselves in challenging times? Is that a technique that you use? Or what are some rules or maybe some guidelines that you could give to people so that they

could start working on themselves? I think back to part of what you said earlier is like spending five minutes and quiet. I think spending some time really very deliberately coming back to yourself, connecting to yourself is so important. It doesn't take long. journaling can be really helpful. Some people find it really helpful. Some people resist it. I'm an on and off again journaler. I've never really fully like had a steady practice with it, but at times I really do find it helpful. That could be really helpful. But starting to figure out what are the things that help to ground you for each of us? What are those things? Because our perspective shifts depending on how we're feeling. And if we're starting to feel somewhat disreaching, regulated or off kilter, whatever that means, then the way our mind thinks about things could be, like what you said earlier about like, oh, why is this happening to me? Whereas when we feel more grounded, we're not going to explore things in that same way. And so things like going outside in nature for 10 minutes, letting the sun touch our face, whatever. So that can be really helpful

for people. Even like I feel like TV gets such a bad rap, but sometimes. just letting yourself chill for a bit, not totally disconnecting, not totally getting lost in that, but letting yourself just kind of change the flavor what's happening in that moment and catch yourself just catching your breath and replenishing and giving yourself some time to come back to yourself from a more grounded place. What does that look like? So, yeah. Yeah. I think whatever it is you need to meditate or turn yourself off or just get away from the self-dialogue that can be consuming at times.

You know, it's an important part of creating a new pattern of thinking. It's an important part of becoming a better part of you. And what do you think about? It seems to me that throughout our lives, were, I guess you could say that our lives are a series of crisis strung together like beads on a necklace. But it seems to me that those crisis, those tragedies, they are jewels on a necklace because there's real growth that happens in those tragedies. And I say that from the person who has seen people really close to them die. And that story is not unique to me.

Everyone has their tragedies. And they may, they, they're, everyone thinks that their heaviness is the, deepest. And it's true because it is because it's your yours. But how do you, how do we get people to see these things that seem like a crisis in their life? How do we get them to see that they're incredible learning experiences? Yeah. I'm not sure how we can get people to see anything unless they're sort of open and willing and interested in that. But to speak about it from that perspective, I think can be really helpful. And so true, there are things. I mean, a couple of things. When somebody's going through some sort of crisis, in some ways,

it may give them permission to give themselves more, to say, you know what, I can't deal with that right now. And sometimes people are better at doing self-care things, for example, when they're going through something hard, because they just are not able to do their usual thing, as they shouldn't be. I mean, it's a lot to go through any crisis. So if somebody's experiencing some more pain and from that, they give themselves more grace and time to replenish or whatever it is that they need and have more compassion towards themselves, that is an amazing opportunity for people to learn that that doesn't have to be only during a crisis. And I think, yeah, losing people. can be so painful, of course. And then it does get us all to kind of touch our own core and

connect to our own feelings of mortality or awareness of mortality and sort of feelings that come up around that. And yeah, it does lead to some processing on a much deeper level that can come out of that. And yeah, so I hope people do get that and hear that. So when we talk about mortality, I have a friend of mine, Ranga Padamanabon, incredible guy. We always have these really fun discussions. And he says to me, George, everything is because people's fear of death. And when we started to, we get into this discussion about death and we started thinking about when people close to you die, you feel really bad. And maybe it's because your fear of death.

But I'm curious to get another opinion on it. What part, like how much do you think the fear of death? plays in our daily lives and leads to fear in our lives. I think it's a lot. I mean, I think it does impact decisions that get made. And there's that, you know, the thought that went through my mind is like fear of death. And also there's a money piece in there, too, of like, oh, I've got to be able to take care of myself. Like, there may be several things on that list that get us activated.

because there is that fear element. But yeah, I mean, I think that fear of death leads to us thinking, well, I only have a certain amount of time on this planet, so I better start to figure out how I'm going to enjoy that journey. And so, I mean, that's my hope. That's the best case scenario that people would really connect to wanting to live as fully as they can because of it. But I think it's a big thing.

Yeah. maybe it's just some of the things that I've been going through or listening to. Shout out to Moises, Figueroa. Thanks, thanks Moises for commenting down there. I really appreciate it, and I hope you're enjoying the broadcast. But when I think about death that's coming up, there's so many,

we have this giant group of people called the Baby Boomers. And I read the stat that said there's 10,000 baby boomers retiring a day for the last 10 years. And on some level, I think we're beginning to see this giant part of us the human body, all of us together, getting really close to the mortality experience. And it seems to me like it's playing out on the world stage with these incredible fear being everywhere. Like the planet's going to die. We're going to be a nuclear war. Like on some level,

I can't help but think that these may be the unrealized dreams of a large part of us dying and desperately questing for one last shot at changing the change in the world. Is that too crazy to think about it? What do you think about? I don't know. It's fascinating. I mean, I hadn't thought about it on those terms before. But yeah, it's really an interesting way to think about it, this collective experience that's happening in terms of what gets put out there and what gets expressed. So yeah, I mean, I think it's it's something that's probably always there. And I just feel like I'm going through like my own, like I'm close. than I've ever been before, of course.

That always happens. But like going through my mother passed away in January, my husband's about to retire. So it's like there's a lot of aging things that are markers like, okay, you know, time's winding down, you know, what does that look like? So I think from a very personal perspective, it feels very front and center for me. And I think for me, it can be mind-boggling and scary to,

to spend too much time there. And I think for me, I really, I'm mindful of not going down the fear path or spending too much time because whatever's going to happen is going to happen. And, you know, of course, you know, we could all die tomorrow or not, hopefully not all of us. But like, yeah. But it's just this idea of sometimes I think we think we know how it's going to play out. And of course, we don't know. So to not spend too much time trying to see how all that's going to happen.

And getting into like catastrophic thinking can be really unsettling for people. And to catch if that's somebody who's dealing with some of that catastrophic tendency to catch yourself. Like that's just bringing me into this fear space. That's just not really sort of supporting what I want to feel as I'm living my day-to-day life. Yeah. I remember reading a book on, oh gosh, She was, I think it was Edward Bernays, wrote this book a long time ago called Propaganda. And I remember one quote from it that was something along the lines of.

If you're not willing to do your own critical thinking, there's plenty of people who are paid plenty of money to do the critical thinking for you. And when you start looking at the world as, look at this fear, look at this scary thing. Look at that scary thing. It's like people that are constantly trying to put blinders on you to keep you focus on what they want you to focus on it. You don't have to do it. That's right. I think that's true. And to be very mindful of figuring out what do you allow into your environment, because if you allow too much of that stuff that gets triggering and dysregulating,

and then that becomes your day-to-day experience, yeah, your quality of life will be impacted by that. And so to be mindful of what are the things that trigger a lot of anxiety and not to put your head in the sand and not pay attention to anything, but to make sure that you're paying attention in a way that is not keeping you too steeped in this idea of like whatever can scare us. Because there's plenty out there. We can really sort of spend a lot of time there if we so choose. Yeah. Sometimes I think that one thing I've been thinking a lot about, something beautiful

that can really help not only me or you, but people listening. And I think it can really help therapy is this idea of poetry. I feel like we've gotten away from using language in the ways in which it was, which it's medicinal in some ways. And if you just think about a poem or think about in your mind create a story where a man and a woman or two men or two women or whatever it is, they're sitting together and one of them is reciting poetry to the other one. And you can almost imagine, maybe this happens to you in your life. But you've had this experience where someone says something to you and you get goosebumps and your face gets flush. I was like, isn't that the real use of communication? And isn't that how we should be trying to communicate to each other?

Wouldn't that make the world a little bit more romantic and better and happier and full of beauty? I would love it. I mean, that's probably part of what I love so much about groups and retreats is not poetry specifically, but there is something so beautiful and poetic when we share from our hearts. And so I feel like it is a version of kind of real life. unfolding that's sort of poetic. But I love that idea. And I think also it's not going to speak to everybody.

And so what are some other forms of genuine connection that people can make sure their life includes so that connection happens? And I think that's probably what you're speaking to most of all about this poetry idea. How can we connect from that heart-centered space with each other in a way that. that we both are really feeling. Yeah, I specifically brought it up. I do, it is about connection. And here's what got me to that space is that now more than ever,

our technology allows you and I to cross borders and states and almost internationally. We're speaking on two complete opposite sides of the United States. And it's beautiful. And we're having a lovely conversation. I'm having a really good time. However, if I was right there next to you, I could like touch your shoulder or there's pharomones that would be moving back and forth. you could see like my my my a slight smile that I have or I could see your eyes kind of shudder this

way or that way and there's so much communication that happens there sometimes and this feeds into the idea of when COVID happened my daughter was going to school she was learning online and on some level I'm a little worried that we're missing the felt presence of the other in our communication so when I think about poetry I'm trying to think of a way to recycle that back into the digital world But what's your take on this beautiful double-edged sword that is allowing us to communicate to each other, but also maybe in some ways making things atrophy? Yeah. I mean, I think that's true and that's happening. And I do all my work now, except for retreats.

I do it all virtually. And, I mean, in some ways, I feel like there's just as much depth. And even though maybe you're not having that, you're not in person, you still, like I see your face. I can still pick up some nuances in your expression. But yeah, there is something about being present with each other. And I just, I'm going back to that poetry idea. There's something about sort of a way to connect and sort of be a little bit less formed or something. I feel like there's something about the digital world.

It's like everything is so formed. There's so much available. It can be so much and overwhelming. And can we simplify things. and what could that look like? And how can we reconnect to some of that purer, like, I don't know, ways of meandering through the world without, like, everything being so intense and, I don't know, in depth. Yeah, I do. I'm so bullish and so thankful for this spot that we're in and AI and all these things.

Like, I see the greatest explosion of creativity, how. and it hasn't happened probably since the Renaissance. I see people that used to be truck drivers becoming content creators. I see people that used to work in a job that they hated, all of a sudden expressing themselves like an artist. And that to me is so exciting. And when I see like these multi-billioners like, we should stop AI.

What I see is a guy who has everything fearing that he's not that much because the people down here are just as good as them. And I love it. I'm so excited for the future. Yeah, I love that. I mean, and you said it earlier, but just all the different conversations now that are happening that didn't use to happen. And I think podcasts like yours and putting stuff out there and letting people sort of hear some of this stuff that didn't use to get talked about at this level. So it normalizes some of this personal inner world stuff that maybe we did.

put out there quite so much. But I love what you're saying about sort of evening up the playing fields. And like, you can just show up as yourself and put that out there. And there's room for that. And there's space for that. And anybody can do it. They can. And earlier in the conversation, you had spoke about your initial move into a group setting when you talked about relationships. And there was some stigma to that. Like maybe these conversations are helping a younger George or a younger Tanya, have that stigma. Maybe they get into the group four years earlier or six years earlier. So like that, then they can fully actualize who they are 10 years earlier than we do. Right. Yeah. That's what I think. I think sort of using these conversations as a way, not using them only as that,

but that they will help to normalize some of these journeys that we all, if anybody's interested, I mean, not everybody chooses to do it, but those people that really choose to check in and sort of see how to honor themselves, what does that look like? I think, yeah, there's more out there for people to not feel so alone in all different ways. Let's say that you find yourself working with a client and you see real change happen in them. What changes in you when you see real change happen in someone else? That's a good question. I just know I get excited about it, first of all. So it's like when I see I see it. I get excited. I share it with them. I help them see it. And in group, we'll do that as a group thing. Like, for example, we might notice that somebody who's been struggling through

something really difficult has gotten to a place where we can just tell by the way they're presenting that there's a real peacefulness about how they're presenting that wasn't there the whole time, that they're getting to this place. And so just reporting that. And so just reporting that back and calling that out is something I do, whether it's individual or group, I get excited. It's reaffirming for me to be able to sort of see that, yeah, there's real value in connecting to our hearts and I believe that. But to have that be something that I get to witness again and again, it's just so reaffirming. I love that. And, you know, again, I'm human. So I go My own ups and downs with my own journeys.

And I think for me, it's inspiring to see somebody really take their journeys and be intentional about how they want to move through life and grow from that. And it is reaffirming from my place of my work, but also as a human being to see somebody honor that and grow and have really positive experiences from that. Yeah. I love it. That's really well said. Thanks for sharing that.

I'm always curious to see how that feels because I think a lot of times, at least, I remember when I was young and I had to go, my parents got divorced. We had to go see this therapist. And I was like, oh, man, what is this person going to tell me? So I read about all the stuff. I'm like, okay, if you go into therapy, I remember I was like in, I was probably in middle school. And like, I was really scared and I didn't want to do it. So I read up on like, what are the body language people with problems have? And it was like people with people that have problems use body language like this and are like this.

So if you if you don't have any problems, you sit back like this and you're really calm. And so I just, I read all that and I went into therapist. I just did all that. And she skipped over it. She would just skip through. And when I looked at my parents, they were like, oh, my sister was like, this is crazy. But I was just, I was trying to be as cool as a cucumber. And she talked to my mom, talked to my dad, talked to my sister.

And they're like, what about George? He goes, I think he's okay. And I'm like, I'm like, oh. But it was like. It was the horrible. I was just masking it. You know what I mean? It's interesting to say that. But I bring that up because I'm always curious to know what the person asking the question gets out of the question. So thank you for answering that. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I mean, people can certainly lie in therapy, although I don't know what you're getting out of it if you do that. But yeah, I mean, their time, I can only know what somebody either demonstrates for me or shares with me. And so although group can be this other shared experience that is very different from individual,

and that's something to be able to see somebody both in an individual and a group setting gives me a whole other layer of information that can be really helpful in learning sort of what's true for somebody or not, because somebody telling me about how they connect socially is very different than watching them be able to do it. you know now that we're talking about the group it there's a book called games people play and in that book they talk about there's roles people play on the boss on the employee on the doctor you're the you're the patient and you can switch those roles like if anybody wants to have a fun thing to do be in the middle of a conversation and then you just start asking the questions that okay well what about this and you'll see that person slip into the role of the person that answers the question but i bring that up because in a group setting especially in therapy people People get to change roles without having to say anything. If it's my turn to share, the other people kind of become the listener. They become the person who can provide advice. They can be the person that provides help.

And I think that part of the group dynamic is really important because you don't always have to play the role of the victim. Now you get to play the role of the person solving the problems. And sometimes when you slip into that role, now you know what it feels like to slip into that role on an individual note as well. and you can take that home with you and you can see yourself in these different perspectives. But I never thought about that before. So I think we're putting that out there. Yeah. Yeah.

So and also I'm thinking about the group too. So, oh, shit. Are you there? Yeah. I'm still here. Sorry, I just cursed. I don't see you anymore. Uh-oh.

I lost you because a call is coming through and my computer just kicked over to that. So can I click? Okay. All right. It should go wait a minute. Yeah. Or can I click the studio again or is that going to bring me back in the beginning? The link.

You could try it. Yeah. If you need to close out and then come back on, you could try that too. All right. That called, sorry. Jeez, Louise. All right. I'm going to click the link, I guess, because I lost you now.

I'm going to click it. Yeah, do it. Oh, crap. You still see me? I can see you and hear you perfectly. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back.

Okay. Or you're back. All right. So forgive that little delay. What was the question? I feel like we were just getting into something, and I can't remember now. We were just talking about the different group dynamics and the way in which you can switch roles between being the person who has a problem and being the person who can give advice to the other problem in group setting.

Yeah. And I'm just realizing that I am on the record. I don't think I'm live anymore. No, you are. Well, I mean, you are on my side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what I clicked, click to watch live. Oh, there you go.

How about now? No, it's so weird. Oh, but then I just saw myself do that. Oh, my goodness. This is like therapy in itself. Like, you got to see yourself do something, and now you're judging it. All right. Yeah, that's right.

All right. I'm going to hit Enter Studios. Let's see what happens. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to add this one and then I'll cut this one. Okay. Okay.

How about now? Okay. Better? No, I'm double now. Okay. Hang on. Let me do this. That's okay.

Now you're better. Now you're single. Hopefully. Okay. We're back. That's like. Okay. Yeah.

So we were in the middle of a question. I got a little distracted. Okay. No, this feeds in perfectly because life happens. And sometimes you're in the middle of a session or you're in the middle of talking to someone. And boom, life happens to you. Oh, my God. My kid got hurt.

Oh, my God. My relationship's not working. Oh, my God. This bill came in. How are we going to do this? But it's these little things in life that hit us. And it fundamentally changes the trajectory that we're on. How do you deal with that?

I love that. And I'm just thinking of the whole, you said this, I think, I don't know if you were implying this or not, but this idea of inner critic. Like I could very easily go into the space of like, oh no, I messed it up. And what, what did I do? It was going so well or whatever, you know, and get into this whole inner critic space and start to beat myself up. And I think people can be so harsh with themselves where, you know, they have this idea of how they want the day to play out or some goals that they have for themselves. And then when the journey doesn't work out the way they're thinking it's going to, then they can get really harsh with themselves. And so I think just to have some compassion again and to not make yourself responsible for all these

ins and outs of going through life. And also that it's not such a big deal. And also that it's not such a big deal, right? And so it's like, all right. So we had a little bit of an interruption. We survived it. And so to not give it so much weight. That's very true on a personal level. But what happens when you're in your relationship and you're having a fine day and things are going well, but your partner or someone in your immediate zone, they are having a tough one. And they have decided that you're the problem, that they're having a tough one. How do you, how do you dance around? or how do you tango through that? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's a complicated question because it depends on whether or not there's a pattern with this. If there's a pattern that every time your partner is in a bad mood, you end up being sort of the focus of that bad mood, then that's a bigger issue to deal with. If the partner is sort of having a bad day and they're out of character and sort of speaking to you in a way that feels confusing and not really right, like they're focusing on you in a certain way and it feels like where did this come from, then in that

situation, you might take some space, agree that you'll deal with it another time and let sort of the partner focus on whatever they need to focus to get grounded. But it's complicated because people don't always want to hear like that's unacceptable. You can't treat me this way. But in terms of honoring yourself and taking care of yourself, it's really important not to allow yourself to become sort of the target of somebody else's bad mood. And so again, it goes back to knowing the patterns and knowing whether this is an issue that needs to get addressed in a bigger way. And also, how are you going to handle it if your partner is speaking to you in a way that's unacceptable? Do you leave? Do you take a time out? Do you have some kind of agreement where

you both know you're going to take a few minutes here and there if any one of you, present that to the other. So it's, I think, part of a bigger understanding of what each couple needs. How come we don't have this sort of character development like in elementary school? Like, wouldn't it be an amazing thing if kids went to like English character development, relationship class? Like, wouldn't it be such a better world if we were taught at a young age, hey, look, no one's going to love you unless you love yourself. Here's some really cool things about you that you can work on. Like that would be a, that wouldn't that create a world in which we lived in a way that was more harmonious? That is a dream. I love the idea of that so much. I just saw this post on Instagram,

and I'm sorry because I'm not going to be able to credit this person because I can't really remember who it was. But she was talking about a lesson with her daughter, and her daughter was asking her whether or not she had her shoes on the right feet, on the right feet. And the way she responded to her daughter was to ask the daughter, well, how does it feel? Does it feel? feel right or is it not feeling right? And I love that so much. And what she was saying about her intention there is to help her daughter learn her own inner guidance rather than asking someone external, in this case, mother, which of course is sort of the automatic thing, but starting to learn how to trust and feel and make your own decisions. And I think overall, there's so many

things we learn in our cultures that don't really help us, know how to honor ourselves, know how to make some of those decisions. There is such an external focus on how do we get sort of the guidance that we need so that we know how to move forward without the real process of checking in. And I have to be mindful of that in my role as a therapist and coach because I don't want to be in this dynamic where people feel like somehow I have more answers than they have because I want people to learn how to check in with themselves and to really know how to make some choices that work for them personally. Yeah, this brings up some interesting points about the way in which we practice medicine and therapy. And, you know, the ultimate goal, it seems to me,

of someone who is a therapist or a doctor, is to have the client never come back to them in a short amount of time as possible. But it doesn't always work that way. In some ways, I think that there's a lot of money being used to weaponize fragility. Like, oh, this is a tough one. You're going to be here for a long time. You're going to make me a lot of money. I mean, you're going to be here for a long time.

You know what I mean? You give this idea of addiction. And, hey, you know what the cure for addiction is? This pill that you'll always be addicted to. And by the way, you can never do that again, ever. Never do it again or you're a horrible person. Like, it's just so convoluted in some ways. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was something you said about sort of that idea of, I've lost it now, something about coming back. I mean, I know that I'm always very mindful if somebody's sort of feeling like they're feeling good, they want to move on. I really want to honor and encourage that as soon as possible and also allow for flexibility. It's not, because I think there is a structure to how often people work with therapy in coaching where it's this idea that it's got to be sort of always consistent.

And that can be really helpful for a period of time, but it's not always what's going to work in every situation. And so I really embrace flexibility and letting somebody tell me what they want and need and working with that as best as possible so that they are the experts. And they can sort of start to identify what they need. And we can find our way together with that. Yeah, it's, you know, there's a lot of, like, I'm really big into psychedelics, and I, I, I spend a lot of time talking with people who have transformative experiences. I spend a lot of time talking to people who help those people who have transformative experience. And from time to time, I find myself maybe talking with or talking about people who believe that they are the medicine. And that happens sometimes as easy because we have egos and it feels good to help people. And it's really easy to sleep. And it's really easy to sleep. slip into the idea of like, I'm the person helping them. And then when you are the thing that helps them, you are no longer the person providing tools for them to help themselves. It can be a dangerous, kind of a slippery slope, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that's part of, I think,

the conversation that I always want to highlight is what's different? What did you do differently? What did you find helpful? And yeah, I like to feel helpful and special. And so it's important for me, too to make sure that I'm not going down that path also of feeling like, yeah, I want to be helpful and special. And that then becomes this other need that is not on somebody else, you know, and so be mindful of that and pay attention to my own sort of what could be a slippery slope if I'm not staying mindful as I'm continuing on in my journeys with somebody is to keep coming back to what's going to work for you, what do you need? And people want, want some leadership and guidance also.

So finding a way that it really honors the growth process. Do you think that we're moving towards a future where the stressors in life are becoming different? You know, in some ways, and maybe this is me wishful thinking, but it seems that we're watching evolution in real time. Like it seems to me the world is changing so fast. If you just step back, you can begin to notice it. And it seems that this idea of the world that our grandparents lived in, or my parents lived in, and this is specifically in the West,

where you take your, the grandparents go to an old folks home, the kids go to school, and the parents go to work. And we all spend our time at these institutions being all alone together. I see that changing. I see that that has been a huge part, almost an experiment that has failed the family unit in a lot of ways. And I see that that breaking down and sort of this idea of everyone rushing into therapy to try to understand their relationship issues, sort of a drawing back, a receding of the tide to a time where we were more holistic. Is that something

I'm making up in my head or do you see that pattern there? I don't know. I feel like there's, every generation has real things that are so stressful and difficult and separating. and that are just not serving the greater good or the individuals. And I just feel like it's different with each generation, but it's always kind of present and that there's journeys to be had probably always. I don't think we're going to not need some of this journeying. It's interesting. In my podcast, sometimes like now,

I often feel the problem I'm describing for society is, in fact, a reflection of my life. It's therapeutic for me. So thank you for my therapy sessions. It's been awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think our perspective is so impacted by what we've experienced so far, what our nervous systems can handle, what we notice. Yeah.

Yeah. What do you think is a way to make your nervous system more robust? Hmm. You know, I did this certificate training. I laugh because I'm terrible student. at this for some reason. And it's this neurosomatic intelligence. I did this training. And there's all these very simple physical things that we all can do to clear our nervous systems that make a huge difference. And I personally got very overwhelmed with like all the different choices. There are

knowing sort of what's going to be most helpful. But there's very simple things that if we know that our nervous system is something to pay attention to and grounding ourselves is an important part of what we need to do to take good care of ourselves and do some of these things. It can really help us do things like I got very nervous initially when I started to do podcast guesting. And even still, that little half hour right before I go on to a podcast, I'd go into, I get my anxiety gets triggered. I go into some negative self-talk about like, oh, what did I say? I was going to do. do this. I don't want to do this. Like, I definitely go into this place of fear and anxiety right before. And so that's a perfect opportunity. And for anybody who's sort of getting more exposure than they

used to get, that could be something that triggers sort of nervous system, anxiety, or doing some things out of our comfort zones. Our nervous systems can get activated and then we can get disregulated. So just knowing that is so helpful. And there are some simple things that we all can do. Breath is one of them. And I know a lot of people get, do use box breathing can be just a helpful way of using breath. So it's just breathing in and then for four seconds, holding for four seconds, breathing out for four seconds and holding again for four seconds. That's box breathing or following your breathing. I just tell people, like, if you're having a moment and you need to re-regulate, going into the bathroom and splashing water on your face can just break that moment and help

you just physically, like, come back into a different space. But learning different things, essential oils can be a way, a way of doing this cranial reset thing where you close one nostril and then hold, I have my little, yeah, I have peppermint. and peppermint and then sort of just breathe in one nostril and then switch can be a way of getting a reset. So there's so many different ways. And I think whether you want to experience those kinds of drills and building a practice that can be one way or just knowing that coming back to your body, dropping, literally reminding yourself, drop back into your body, take a breath can be a really helpful practice of when your nervous system starts to feel activated,

when you feel like you're a little dysregulated of kind of coming back to center and grounding yourself. It's such a great way to begin to understand self-awareness and responsibility because so much of the things that happen in our life we're connected to. Like this outburst, not all of them, but I mean, a big part of what happens in our life isn't so much the event, but the perception of the event, right? Yes. Yes, yes, yes to that. Right. And then I think reframing does end up being a lot of what I work with people on because, and then it can go back to some of these limiting beliefs because if our, however we're looking at things becomes the lens.

So if the lens is, oh, I'm bad if I do this or, you know, I need to show up this certain way or I won't be accepted or loved, whatever it is. And starting to use reframing as a way to process things is important. And I think can really be helpful, especially if there's something that you keep getting stuck on. Like productivity can be one that I know a lot of people get into this should idea. Like I should be able to do this thing and I should be able to. whatever it might be where they kind of beat up on themselves for not moving through things as quickly as they want. And so many people struggle with that. So, yeah, I think that reframing is a great tool.

Yeah. You know, when you bring up the word productivity, I should probably work on myself because that word really bothers me. I saw a video yesterday. Like if you take a chicken and you stick its head to a chalk line or if you take a chicken, And then you draw a line like that, that chicken will be like, it'll almost pass out. It'll go like into this catatonic state and it won't be able to move. And so, you know, while we as human beings are not chickens,

all you need to do is look at a board of directors or some people that work at a multinational corporation or Wall Street or governments. And they'll tell you productivity is the holy grail of profit. it just despise on every level the world in which we look at people as a number the same way like it just disgust me and I think that's a big part of the problems we see is the system that we live in and I think people facing their problems and understanding that they're not a number people having the courage to stand up for what they believe in and break out of this idea of a narrow focus number mentality is something that everybody can do on an individual level.

And when people on an individual level begin doing it, it makes society as a whole better. For some reason, we have really found that what we do, what we have is the definition of who we are. And now we're back into this idea of self-limiting beliefs. You're not your bank account. You're not your relationship. You're not this one thing. You're a multitude of thousands of things.

And if you can understand that, sometimes that's enough to break free from this mold of mediocrity. Like, what do you think about that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, from a very personal experience, when I left the job that I had right before starting this business, I was new to using online as a way to put myself out there and all of that and just deciding what do I want it to look like? How is this going to grow?

I definitely had like shiny object syndrome. And I kept thinking, oh, I should do this. this, I should do that, which I, and I very much felt like a hamster and a wheel, the pace that I felt like I needed to be moving at was uncomfortable. I didn't like it. I wasn't experiencing sort of satisfaction in my day-to-day life. I was feeling like, I got to hurry up. I got to do this thing, you know, and definitely feeling like, oh, I've got a sort of productivity is where it's at. I mean, I definitely was stuck in this place with that. And challenging. myself to know that there was a limiting belief in there and to know that it was hurting me because

I really was not enjoying my life from that space. And what I did from there is to really catch it and say, that's not how I want to live. I'm going to let myself work at a pace that feels comfortable to me. And I am going to choose some priorities way less than I thought I had to choose and let myself take whatever time it takes. And that has changed everything for me in terms of my day-to-day life and my experience of being able to trust, you know, what just feels right in my body as I'm moving forward. And am I any more productive or less productive? Honestly, it hasn't really impacted my output, really. It just changed that busyness, that perceived. busyness and that experience of being so like, I don't know, hustling for my worth and all of that.

And so, yeah, I think it's a problem in our culture. I think that and probably other cultures as well, but certainly in America, I know that there's this big push towards you must be productive at all times and that that's sort of the top way to experience. but then we're neglecting things like grounding ourselves when our nervous systems are activated and resting and prioritizing fun and some of those things that I think give us a sense of balance and full expression aren't getting tapped into when we're overly focused on productivity. So it's a very giant move.

It can be life-changing for someone to quit working for someone else and start doing something for themselves. And a lot of people want to do it, but they're afraid to do it. And rightfully so, like, there's this fear that comes up like, oh, my God, if I leave here, I can't support my family. I might not have insurance. What would people think of me? You know, who am I to think I can do this? How, what strategies did you use to get around those things? I think little by little to figure out what are some of the steps that I need to take to start to feel ready for that. So figuring out maybe for some people, it could be writing out a business plan, getting really clear and what it might look like. For some people, it might be saving some money

that would allow yourself to have time to be in the growth part of a business and to look at all the different pieces and what do you need in place to help that be a safe move. You don't want somebody to take a step like that if it's going to be devastating to themselves and their families. So to figure out what are some of the pieces needed so that I could move towards maybe part-time first. That was part of what I did like a long sort of termination process. And I went from full-time to part-time and then to doing it on my own after having saved some money to keep myself sort of safe as I was going into this growth period where I know earning wasn't going to look the same and it was going to take some time. So to really be prepared for some of that.

But I think there's something about being on a journey that honors your truth, even if it takes some time, even if it's frustrating to not be able to do it tomorrow, but to know like, all right, I've got this plan, I've got this goal, I see it. I have this vision of what it could be and I'm moving in that direction, even if nothing else changes in your life, knowing that you're on a path that feels in alignment with your heart can change how it feels to be on that journey. Yeah, that's really well said. And I think having the courage to take those first steps, it's like some of the myths that you hear, the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

And once you find that courage to take the first step, the second one becomes easier. And then the third one becomes easier. And before long, you look back and, you know, you're already a mile down the path. I had a really interesting story that I always turned to when I find myself questioning where I'm at on my journey. And it's when my daughter learned to ride a bike. I remember we were outside my house and the training wheels were off. And of course, I had like, you know, I had my hand on the seat and the steering wheel. And then, like, we have like a little cul-de-sac.

So we started by the fire hydrant. And then like I let her go. And she was like, ah, you know, all squirrelly and stuff. And then she, she went like probably 35 yards. And then she fell over and she was so pissed off. She takes her bike and throws it down. I can't do it, dad. This is a lot of yelling.

Like, stop. Stop. What? I'm like, look where you started at. Look where you started at. You started way over there. And like, I just saw the lights going. I almost cry when I think about it.

She's like, yeah. Pets the bike back up and then she goes again. Like sometimes always. we need to do is look where we started at. And that's enough. It's like, okay, I'm making progress. I'm being way too hard on myself. I've come a long way.

I understand the mechanics of it. I should be proud of myself and sort of beating myself up. Because when you beat yourself up, you beat yourself into submission and you go backwards. Or maybe you don't go backwards, but you stay at that spot. But if you just find that courage and give yourself the love that you deserve, like, look what you did, man. You were way over there. You did it.

Just be proud of that. And they can really light a catalyst or light a fire under you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of what I do is help people see that because sometimes it can be hard to see it for yourself. And even sometimes knowing that there's frustration there is something to celebrate. You know, it's like, okay. So you're recognizing that that's not where you want to be.

You want to be over here. And I get it. Like there's some frustration in the process. But your clarity is getting really sharp. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that these things that you're able to help with it, that you enjoy helping people with the most, are the things that you've helped yourself with and the things that you're proud of about yourself?

For sure. Yeah, I don't think I could do this work if I wasn't doing my own personal work. Not only when I was younger, but still, like I feel like personal growth work is ongoing. It's lifelong. I mean, there's always different things that play out as we live our lives. different challenges along the way. And we can be humbled along the way as we're sort of going through some things. And I think we all have these tender spots and we all have the places that when we're more dysregulated, when we're struggling more, like we tend to go towards where we're like, oh, there's that thing. So it could be like a real harsh inner critic that gets activated that says some of the same things that it always has said. And I know sometimes people feel frustrated. They're like, I thought I worked through this. I thought I figured this part out. I thought

this is not an issue for me anymore. And it's true. I mean, it can be mostly worked out. But when it gets touched on and it shows up again, that can be frustrating. But if, you know, we can all just understand, well, that's just part of what happens. And it doesn't mean that it looks the same as it did years ago when I was less aware and I had done less healing, it won't stay around as long, but it shows up. This stuff shows up and to know that and honor that. Yeah, I think that that's such a critical part of my ability to connect to and work with other people. Do you think that people, sometimes I think that the people that are drawn to you

is because they see that you've accomplished something that they're working on. Do you feel that way? I think so. I think that because that is my truth, I show up. And somehow that gets expressed. I'm not quite sure how that gets felt necessarily. I mean, I certainly share stories with people and I will share parts of my own experiences that I think will be helpful in teaching some of what people are going through.

So I think that there is some authenticity that people can feel when they work with me and connect to me. And yeah, I think for people to not feel like, oh, I'm somebody who's got it all figured out and then they're like somehow lower than or something like that. I think it's really important. One of the things when I did this deep reset retreat with my partner who used to be my boss. So she and I now are partnering on these retreats, which we both. both love, but we're very mindful of not being in this sort of guru state. Like, we're not at all acting as if we've got it all figured out. We just know this human journey is complicated and we'll guide you through it as we also

guide ourselves. You know, we always are learning on those retreats as well. And yeah, so I think that it's critical and I think that people can feel it. Yeah, it sounds fascinating to me. Tanya, I thoroughly enjoy talking to you. I really love learning, and it's so fun to have someone that you can talk to and learn from and express ideas with and share things with. So thank you for that today. Thank you.

I've really enjoyed talking with you as well, and I really enjoy, and I love your energy. I like the way, yeah, like, yeah, I feel like your heart's really in it, and that means a lot to me. Yeah, I do. I care. The people that come on, I want. the people that come on my podcast to, I want the people listening to the podcast to see the light and the person I'm talking to because I care about the people that come on. Like, this person's awesome.

I bet you tons of people will listen to this and they'll get value out of it. And I see us all this one person learning on different angles or standing on different foothills and the mountain of dreams. And so I really enjoy it. And I'm really thankful that you spent time with it. But before I let you go, where can people find you? what do you have coming up and what are you excited about? Okay.

So probably the place that people can find me and then that connects to other things that I have offerings of is my website, which is I have an easier to remember URL, which is clear energetic clutter.com. So they can find me that way. And there's a link to that documentary that you and I spoke about and other things. I would say the thing that's coming up, I'm not, oh, I was going to say, when is this going live? But it's already live. So, but I have a retreat, one of these deep reset retreats in Cold Spring, New York coming up. It's just two days.

And that's in October. So would love for anybody interested in doing some of this deep work. It's amazing and special. And really, I mean, sort of the love that we all experience in that space is, It's just really magical. So that, and what am I excited about? I'm excited about the conversation that we had today. I'm excited about some of my own creative projects that I'm continuing forward with

because I think that, you know, I'm finding my way and honoring my heart more and more. And by doing that, I feel like I experience just more connection and excitement in my life overall. So I love that. Yeah, fantastic. Well, I'm going to put all the links in the show notes and people will be able to go and check them out, your Instagram, your website, and they can see all the videos you're posting and all the helpful hints that you have to help people become a better version of themselves and everything that you got going on.

I'm hopeful in the future will be having some more conversations. And hang on one second because I'm going to hang up with the people, but I wanted to talk to you briefly afterwards. So to everybody that played a part in the conversation today from Moises to Magic, everybody else in the comments. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today. I hope you enjoyed the conversation and we'll be back tomorrow. Aloha. Thank you.