TrueLife - The Art of Integration: Incorporating Psychedelic Plant Cultivation into Mental Illness Therapy - Tess Burzynski

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/https://www.fungifreights.net/http://linkedin.com/in/tess-burzynskiMycologist, Scientist, and R&D Director exploring the possibilities of psilocybin to treat mental Illness. As well as best case uses for soul remediation. In this conversation Tess shares some stories about her journey from the past, present, and what she sees coming in the future. Unfortunately, our conversation was cut short due to power outage…so…stay tuned for part two coming out soon!   One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, The Puris through ruins maze lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I got an amazing show for you today with an amazing individual. One, Mrs. Tespersensky. She's an entrepreneur, a scientist, an R&D director. She's exploring a lot of possibilities, one of which is using psilocybin to treat mental health disorders.

Another is understanding how fungi can be used to restore soil health at polluted sites. She started a few different companies, and we're going to get into how she got to be involved in this area, what she's excited about, where you can find her. But before I get too deep into this introduction, let me just. just handed off to her. Mrs. Mrs. Tess Prasinski, how are you? And did I leave anything out that you wanted to add to that particular beginning? Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. And I think anything that you may have left out, we will cover. So we won't worry about that. But no, I think that was a great

introduction thus far. And yeah, mushrooms are my life. And I have just a deep, rooted passion for all things fungi, so I'm excited to, yeah, for this talk. It's going to be great. It is. It's going to be fun. I have always found that a great place to start is at the beginning. And sometimes the beginning is a warm, heartfelt story about a young woman or a young girl and her grandfather moving through the fields looking for mushrooms. Does that story sound familiar to you?

I think it does. Surprisingly. Yeah, I like the idea of starting from a beginning because we all have a story. You know, we all started somewhere and we are writing our story continuously as we go through life, as we grow, as we change. And the beginning is important. And I did, you know, tread through the forest of Northern Michigan with my Polish grandfather. what a wonderful, goofy guy, a silly guy, nonetheless, wonderful, wonderful person. And that's kind of where I got my initial, like, view of mushrooms.

Like, oh, we can forage mushrooms. We can eat mushrooms. You know, that's something that not a lot of children experience. And not only, you know, just in the kitchen, but an academic. academia as well. So I kind of got, you know, my eyes on mushrooms from a young age through culinary, the culinary side of things with my grandfather. And I think, you know, nature is such a beautiful place to be, especially at a young age when you're so vulnerable and your brain's like a little sponge with the consistency of a mushroom. And you're just

like learning and to be within nature and just like feel the interconnectedness of everything is so important. And I owe a lot of that knowledge and connection to nature for my mother. She's a woman of nature, a beautiful Arabic woman who taught us the art of foraging as well, you know, grape leaves and herbs. And we were always, you know, outside. forging and she kind of just has that beautiful spiritual side to her and taught my sisters and I from early age to live in harmony with the environment around you and the complexity but also the simplicity of it as well and it just yeah that kind of you know the spiritual side of things you know came from my mother and it's just as important so that's kind of the beginning yeah no it's a beautiful

beginning. I like the way you intertwined complexity with, you know, and simplicity in a way. Like there's something, that's a great way to describe nature because when you look at it, it just seems so simplistically beautiful. But then as you begin to really pull back the curtain, you realize how many moving parts there are in there. And it's, there's something beautiful in the complexity as well. And yeah, I just wanted people to understand where you came from, because I, you know, you have two, you have two degrees and you've started your own company. And I think for people that are beginning their own journey who may be interested, whether it's in mushrooms, foraging or nature, I think it's important for them to understand where someone comes from. They come from,

sometimes the smartest, most creative people come from the most humble beginnings. And I think that that's a very important part for people to understand when they're listening to something like that. What was it that that made you wanted to go to school and learn more about it? that's a good question because that didn't come until later but it's all intertwined so i had my first psychedelic experience my first experience with psilocybin in my early teens and that just kind of like like opened up self-love in the world and i was just like wow these are fascinating fascinating organisms. Like, they have taught me so much,

what else is out there about them? And why haven't I even learned anything about them in academia, aside from, like, you know, there's that phobia side of things. And, like, we spend months learning about bacteria and other microorganisms, but, like, a week on fungi. Like, they are so understudied, so overlooked. Why is this? So when, you know, I've, you know,

I began furthering my academic career at the university level. I was just like, these professors can't even answer some of my questions. Like, this is not okay. So I just kind of decided to take it upon myself to just like dive deeper. And I found the microcology community, such a specific niche of wonderful, amazing, bizarre, out there people that I just totally resonate with. So it was just like, oh, my people. So I was studying microbiology and it was just like all like pre-med students. I'm like just, I don't fit in here.

I found the cool bizarre mycology community. I'm like, this is radical. I, you know, you can, you know, everyone's a scientist. You don't have to technically be like within academia. So kind of just like doing my own research, but then discovering the environmental science department where there's like, okay, geology. Like it's a mix of geology and biology. Like I can, I can groove with this. because geology people are, you know, pretty goofy too.

So I'm like, okay, I kind of found that happy medium within, within college and began doing some undergrad studies on microremediation. Well, just learning about bioremediation at first. I was studying soils. I was in a couple different soil science classes. I'm just like, soil is life. Like, it gives us life. It's something that we should care.

deeply about and take care of. And there's so much fungi dwelling in the soil and fire mediation is awesome. And let me kind of look deeper into this, look at, you know, the role fungi play within the environment. And it kind of just like went off from there. I just became totally fascinated and engulfed in it. And that was like taking up most of my time. So I'm like, okay, maybe I can make this a thing so I'm not just like bunker down alone just studying fungi by myself like let me you know open this up to the community and be able to engage with others about this and you know see what happens and that's kind of how the fungi frets came about so it's awesome it is a lot it is a lot it's sometimes it's difficult to try to condense your life into like a paragraph or something like

that, especially when you have accomplished a lot. And I think that you have, Tass. I'm stoked to talk to you and I want people to understand a little bit about that. That's why I was asking some of the tougher questions right there. But maybe you can explain to people what micromediation is or soil mediation is so that they have an understanding. Absolutely. So bioremediation is just utilizing like biota to break down specific pollutants and contaminants within the soil. And this happens naturally. Like things are breaking down on a day-to-day basis. It just kind of could, you know, be of longer duration.

If you introduce specific fungi that have this, usually it's saprophytes. A saprobe has an extracellular enzyme system that can break down lignin. so that they're, you know, they feed off of decay, pretty much. So they break down that organic matter and give it a new life, which is just like so cool to think about. With this enzyme system, because it breaks down lignin, lignin makes up woody, you know, it's a component that makes up woody trees and shrubs. and its molecular structure is an aromatic ring structure,

and it's very similar to hydrocarbons. So that is so cool to me that a natural component lignin that has been on the earth for almost the beginning of time. You know, the mushrooms are very familiar with it and have been breaking it down forever. And we have hydrocarbons, you know, petroleum-based products that have this very similar molecular structure that the mushrooms are like, oh, cool. Like my enzymes have been doing this for a very long time. No problem.

You know, let's get after it. So, yeah, there's different strains, different species of fungi that are responsible for this. and introducing them into those kind of contaminated or polluted sites can help speed up that process naturally in situ. So that's really cool. A lot of the current remediation that takes place with soil is usually, you know, very costly, inefficient and usually it's like moving the soil from one place to another. So you're kind of just moving around contamination or, you know, they still incinerate it,

which is kind of crazy to me because you're just like, you know, with combustion, you're just, like, changing the chemical, like, you're, it's a chemical reaction. So then, you know, the pollutants are just like, volatizing and becoming an air pollutant. So it's, yeah, just like, okay, we can do better than this. It's 2023. Let's go. It blows my mind to think that maybe the answers for pollution, maybe the answers for our environment have been with us this whole time and we've just been ignoring them. Like when you think about the way in which mushrooms can heal the soil or bring new life to old shrubs or move around energy from root structure to root structure, it seems like the answers have always been with us. We've just failed to notice them. And I wanted to ask you this.

There seems to be an interesting parallel with the way in which mushrooms move around nutrients from root structure to root structure, at least some mushrooms. And the way, mushrooms interact with us. You know, when we talk about being born again and having new life, it almost seems that the psilocybin mushrooms give you a new lease on life. And I'm using that very loosely. Like, it allows you to think a little bit differently. It almost allows, it almost allows for the, the discoupling of memory from perception. And when I think of, like, the mushrooms in the ground, like they're moving new energy to new, root structures and stuff like that. And I know there's different species, but what do you think

are the similarities and maybe some differences with the way in which mushrooms move nutrients from root structure to root structure and the way that mushrooms work with us human beings? Is there something similar in the relationship between humans and mushrooms and trees in mushrooms or shrubs in mushrooms? I think you could look at it that way. You know, there is a synergy there. metaphorically, you know, absolutely. Mushrooms are very synergistic. And the way, you know, they work within the environment, it can be very similar to how they work within us.

You know, we are just like a mini ecosystem. We, you know, we are nature. So when we talked about earlier, the complexity and, you know, simplicity, we are very complex creatures, but we're also very simple, simplistic as well. So, and, you know, the answers are all there. The answers have always been within us, have always been within nature. It's just about shifting your focus sometimes and, like, seeing it.

And I think mushrooms, you know, slas to be specifically, you know, psilocybin when we ingest it, helps, you know, to open, you know, it's just like a tool or a teacher, you know, that's really just opening you up to all the answers that are there. within you that you already have. It's a beautiful experience. But yeah, so it's just kind of showing you what's just right there within you. And, you know, within this in the environment, I don't want to get too off topic and too like, oh, like spiritual. We'll bring it back down to earth, so to speak. Within the soil, within the soil web, you know, fungi is ubiquitous.

So how it really, how they're very beneficial. to trees and plants. They have like a symbiotic relationship with about 90% of all trees and plants. And it's it's the mycelium. So it's the vegetative structure that we don't really see with our eye. It's underground. And it's like this beautiful interconnected system that is very tenacious. It's like so filamentous and like kind of stringy and delicate. but the tenacity of it is spectacular and it can penetrate deeper into the ground to the calcareous bedrock even. So it's bringing up minerals and different nutrients from the bedrock that the tree roots or the plant roots can't get to. So there's this really cool exchange of nutrients of minerals, of minerals, of

minerals, you know, to the plant from the fungi. And they also help tremendously with transporting water. And then in exchange, you know, the plants can give the fungi, you know, different kinds of sugars and carbohydrates and whatnot. So it's a cool relationship. And not all fungi are this nice, you know, so I just want to make that known. There's many, many different relationships going on. So They're not all very, you know, symbiotic like that. Yeah. There's okay. Every year you end up reading about people that go foraging and maybe pick the wrong kind and maybe they haven't been educated in it or maybe they haven't done their research or maybe they're just, you know, not very responsible, but, you know, at least once a year you'll read a story about someone picking some mushrooms and eating them and dying because they haven't done in their research.

So I think it's important that people understand that while there are tons of money. that are really beneficial for not only the planet we live on, but for ourselves, there's also some that are pretty dangerous, right? Is that fair to say? Yeah. You know, there aren't as many poisonous mushrooms that aren't, but it is a real thing. You know, mushrooms have a way of, you know, being deceptive, too. There's a lot of lookalike.

So if you are going to take up foraging, I would, you know, recommend getting really good guides, going with a group, going with somebody that is educated on the species and can, you know, teach you because it's, yeah, it can be sketchy for sure. So I wanted to talk a little bit about one of the first companies, I think it's may have been one of the first companies you started. It's the freight company about how you've taken these containers and you've used them, your love for mushrooms, and you've put them together to help build a better community. Can you tell people about that? Sure.

So it did start off as a community, or I'm sorry, a company just for my own naivity because, like, I was pretty naive and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm going to start like this business and, you know, didn't even have a business plan or anything. I was just like, I want to, you know, bring this to the community. And it's, I don't like to think of it as a business anymore because it's not. I've dropped that for, for this, for the fungi freight specifically. It's just a community education hub. And I acquired seven vacant lots in East Pole Town.

It's inner city of Detroit. Seven consecutive lots. And, you know, there's a lot of vacancy within Detroit. But it's, it's a beautiful thing, actually, because it's like one of the only like, cities that I've seen natural restoration take place because of their because so much vacancy. So it's allowed these empty areas to kind of rewild. And with that, it expands biodiversity and opens up a lot of green space within these like concrete jungles. So it's, it's really cool. And that's kind of the idea that I have with this property. And,

to kind of allow natural restoration to take place, increase that biodiversity, allow a safe green space for the community to learn more about mycology. And I had the thought of using a freight container kind of just came to me like in that weird slumber of sleep. I was just like, oh, fungi frates. Like, cool. And, you know, they're super sustainable. and cost-effective, modular. So it allowed me to, like, have a starting point and grow, you know, with it. So it's been, it's been quite the adventure.

A lot of it's been DIY and, you know, having a lot of talented people around me has helped tremendously and I've learned a lot. It's coming along and the community is reacting really well to it. And I have a few neighbors that are, they call it their same. sanctuary and I just, it's so exciting to have positive feedback and learn from the community as well. It's such an awesome community and doing a lot of cool stuff there together. Prior on our conversation, you had told me in the audience that, you know, mushrooms have their own way of revitalizing the soil. And here you are starting a sort of, you know,

community endeavor and revitalizing these vacant lots. It's almost like it's the same process. It's almost like you're the mushroom, you know, you're following the same path as the mushroom makes the soil better. Here you are making the restoring the community a little bit. Maybe you can give us the rundown of like let's say that a class of, I don't know, fifth graders comes to this community and like what do you teach in there? What goes on if you had a class there?

Like, are people, are you teaching a class in there? Are they learning what the soils about? Are they learning remediation? Like, what are they learning when they go to your sanctuary there? Yeah, we hold many different types of educational workshops, anywhere from, you know, beginner mushroom cultivation courses like cultivation 101. So that is a really cool workshop that a lot of people of the community like. And all of these workshops are free to people of the community.

And our cultivation workshop teaches people to take kind of their backyard, compost or household waste and turn it into a viable food source for mushrooms. So not only is it like recycling, but it's also turning, you know, waste into a food source. So one of the deeper classes talks about fungi and food security. So, you know, growing your own mushrooms for food security within the community as well as economic development. We do log cultivation workshops. We teach about soil and one of our projects was actually handing out soil sampling kits to the community. There's a lot of urban gardening and farming going on and that is a wonderful thing, but you have to be sure, especially in an industrial city like Detroit, you know, what's in your soil when you're growing

when you're growing this food because a lot of contaminants are bioavailable, become bioavailable, and then you have a contaminated food source, and you don't want that. So we, you know, we do give educational classes on soil health and how to test and treat your soil and, you know, on a backyard level. We hold like just also very, we want to make it like, like a very creative hub as well. So we have different like events where we encourage, you know, people of the community to come out and like share their, you know,

just to, you know, an outlet, you know, to share what they're about to. So having a space that's just a safe, open space for people to come and learn and congregate. That's what we're about. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I bet your grandfather would be proud. of you for carrying on kind of the same tradition that in my in my mind like I see this older man with like his granddaughter holding hands walking to the forest and then like in my mind I see you continuing that path and now holding the hands of all these other people coming into the community so super awesome I think

it's a beautiful story what about what about this new thing you're starting about this this thing called novel task can you tell us about that of course yeah so I'm a co-founder of novel um an emerging psychedelic therapy company that we specialize in psilocybin and silicin. So, you know, we are just very passionate about taking mental, you know, your mental health into your own hands, reducing the dependence on pharmaceuticals, different mental health, you know, the treatment that's out there right now, you know, it seems to be failing. So. So reducing the dependence and finding independence through psilocybin. And yeah, it's new and it's exciting.

And we're just, you know, kind of trying, you know, we have to be shifting gears because, unfortunately, legality is around psychedelic medicine is a true thing, unfortunately. So, you know, we're working with that. but nonetheless have really have a lot of hope. And we think it could be a promising, promising solution to a lot of the mental health disorders. I agree. I think for the longest time, maybe since the industrial revolution that Western medicine has decided to take medicine in the realm of a coping strategy. And I don't know if people know what I mean by that, but it's like you can hate your life.

If you could be depressed, you can have anxiety, you can hate your relationships, and you can hate your job. But if you just take this pill, it'll give you enough to get through your day. You won't stop hating yourself. You won't stop hating your job, but you'll feel good enough to get up and continue to move down this avenue of destruction. Where it seems to me, psilocybin, or a lot of these psychedelic medicines, they force you to face the demon. They force you to face that blockage, which is causing you to be distressed, depressed, or have anxiety. I think it's a new way to look at medicine. Instead of giving someone a patch, let's go for the cure.

And I realize that psychedelics are not a panacea, and they may not be right for everyone. And there may be some things that it can't fix. But I do think it's a better pathway than a lot of Western medicine. And now, don't get me wrong. I am thankful that we have large pharmaceutical companies that make drugs, that make people's lives better. and I think that there's still room for both of them in there. But I do see this emerging world of psychedelic medicine is something that's going to be incredibly beneficial,

especially for mental illness. I'm not familiar with the legality in Michigan. I know that in Colorado, they've decriminalized it in Oregon and parts of California. Here in Hawaii, it's kind of on the ballot. But what is the legality where you're at? Yeah, so it's still illegal here in Michigan. We have decriminalized

We have decriminalized Most entheogenic plants and fungi in Ann Arbor, Detroit And Hazel Park So, you know, it's starting. You know, we do see a positive change happening In Colorado and Oregon, it's actually legal. So it's going to be very interesting to see the next steps they take what, you know,

what it's going to look like for psychedelics in these states. And we've been keeping an eye on that. And, you know, keeping in the loop is very important. I think assisted therapy along with the use of psychedelics is very important, very important to realize that and setting. Like you were saying, a lot of Western medicine is just masking the problem, not really getting to the root cause. And it's really important to acknowledge the indigenous.

use of these medicines because that's where, you know, it is rooted. You know, it's rooted in a long history of indigenous use. And we have to honor that and remember that because they are, the indigenous peoples are the, the keepers of this knowledge. And, you know, instead of reinventing this wheel and like, you know, just being like, oh, this is a psychedelic renaissance. It's, it's really not. We, you know, we need, we need to learn, you know, from the medicine, people that have so much history within this and not kind of like rape them of that knowledge. It's it's very important to honor that. When you see it in that light, I think it will affect you differently as well. It's just really cool to see, you know, the different people coming into the light of psychedelics. There's been

a huge stigma around it. I mean, the counterculture, you know, it was there for a minute, but then it got twisted and the war on drugs just screwed everything up. And it's really cool to see. people opening up to these types of medicines in a new way. Like my mom is just all about it and it's awesome. I was always like the weird like, you know, one, the black sheep of the family when it comes to this kind of stuff. And she was kind of worried about me at different times in my life. Now she's like, oh, where are my mushrooms?

Yeah. I'm like, okay. That's awesome. And I think it speaks volumes of the people that are kind of coming together. A lot of people, I think a lot of people share similar characteristics to that idea of the black sheep and the family and that idea of, you know, seeming lost, you know, or maybe people looking at you as if you are at risk or something like that. But it harkens back to the quote of not all, I'm going to butcher the quote, but it's something along the lines. Not all who wander are lost. Oh, Tess.

Yeah. I love it. I love it. run the same. I like to bring there with you. Yeah, it's a good one. And, you know, I think becoming lost is actually okay. You know, you kind of have to lose yourself to find yourself and, you know, so to speak, not to sound cheesy or anything, but like, you know, to become lost, to stir up the muck, you know, to be uncomfortable. That's what this is all about to be vulnerable and, you know, be uncomfortable for, you know, be uncomfortable

for a minute. I like using this like an analogy of the lobster, like how lobsters like shed and grow. So like for for a lobster to grow, it has to shed its shell. And you know, when it does this, it's in a very, very vulnerable space because it's, you know, it's just like completely naked and available to like all these different. predators. So it takes some time for to sit within that space to, to regrow its new shell. But that shell is stronger and it fits better and it just allows it to live, you know, to continue living and in a prosperous way. So, you know, to find yourself in a vulnerable, scary space is okay and it's temporary and sometimes it's very necessary to grow.

Yeah. And that's what we're all doing here, what we're here for. You know, we're never done growing. There's a lot to discover. Yeah, that's a great one. I have yet to hear the shedding of the shell of the lobster. I'm a huge fan of the silkworm spins its web and gets caught in it. So too do we spin our web and get caught in it.

And the idea of the cocoon and the idea of the snake shedding its skin and it begins at its mouth and it has to find a really rough patch of dirt to like wiggle around and break out of the old skin. And it too is very vulnerable for birds and predators. And, you know, even in birth too, I think we can see a similar understanding of that. You know, there's a real chance in childbirth that a child dies. And that's why it's a miracle. And I think in some ways that represents all of us. Like we are being reborn all the time.

And I think that if you can understand that, it does a few things for you. On some level, if you're willing to face that idea that you're dying and being reborn, it does maybe help you cope with end of life. It can be an end of life coping strategy. and it can help you have a little bit of empathy for other people that you thoroughly understand that everyone you see is going through a battle that you know nothing about. They're shedding their skin.

And if you can understand that, I think it does help the world there. I know that sounds gargantuan, but I think there's a lot of truth to it. One of the issues that I've noticed in this world of legality and psychedelics and the reemergence of them is there's like this push and pull between like clinical trials and big pharma coming in and the maria sabinas that are that kind of god is going there but do you see this tension between big pharma and the the at-home practitioners or what do you

think about that relationship that's kind of making its way into this world these days? Yeah, that's a tough one. You know, it's a dichotomy that I struggle with on a day-to-day basis, especially getting into, you know, this industry because I have such a respect for, you know, these organisms like at, you know, for what they are and for their healing purposes and for their history. Um, so, um, how I look at it with big farmer, that's just, you know, that they're always going to try to come in and get their hands on it. And, um, that's why I think it's very important to decriminalize along with legalizing, because people should not be penalized for, say, growing their own in their basement.

That's how they choose to do it for utilizing, you know, this medicine, however they choose to do so. And however, there are some people that this is like a very new territory and it can be, it could be, you know, scary for a lot of individuals and they might feel it's more fitting. safer for them to be in a professional setting. Having regulations around anything, especially fungi, you know, where it's being grown and how it's being processed, I think is important. Sure, like Joe Schmo can grow them like in his basement, but, you know, and sell him to his friends or just give him away, whatever.

But in, you know, a, in a professional practice, you know, trying to. to really get to the root cause of a lot of mental health disorders, I think it's important to have regulations around that because fungi come with a lot of weird funky things, you know, when you're growing them. And it's important to recognize that. And, you know, and it's okay to be nervous about that and want to get your, your medicine from a legitimate source. So with regulations around that, I'm, I can, you know, I'm all for that. But I think people should have the freedom to, you know, grow and utilize freely for sure. Yeah, it's, it's going to be a battle.

I think it's staying true to, staying true and respectful to like the root of, This medicine is very important. Hopefully that can outweigh big pharma coming in and doing what they do best. So I have another question, test that I think you, out of almost anybody I've ever talked to, is uniquely qualified to answer this. Not only because you're a cultivator, but because you have this new company called Novel where you're beginning to work on mental health. And here is my question slash strategy that I love to get your opinion on.

And it is this. Do you think that there is a real mechanism for solving problems, not only with taking the psilocybin mushrooms, but growing them? I have learned that when attempting to grow mushrooms, you're faced with dilemmas like contamination. And when you begin to grow them, you have to work around. You have to have this clean room and you have to have the right set and you have to clear away all these variables in order to get it to work. I have found that I am able to look at my life like that. When I grow, sometimes like a lot of times I have an unsuccessful grow. And it forces me to go, oh, well, these got contaminated.

I wonder why they got contaminated. But then that makes me look at my life and be like, wow, maybe these other people in my life are contaminating me, you know? And like, you can really begin to grasp the concept of as above so below. And I'm wondering, are you using or do you know of any companies that are utilizing the growing process as part of the medicinal learning process. And if so, do you think that that's applicable? That's a super interesting question.

And I really like it a lot because the more I have worked with fungi, um, cultivating, um, just studying. I have learned so much about myself. Yes. They have like that resonance is there. They just bring up so many questions and, you know, they're symbolic for like unveiling the truth. A lot of,

the passion that I have for my psychology stems from a deep-seated desire to unveil the truth, like, not only of like this place that we are, but within myself as well. And that has improved so much of the way that I operate here on Earth. And it's, it's truly fascinating. But that's, that's an interesting concept, you know, to kind of bring in the aspect of cultivation and how that you know, interplays with, with you and life and like, you know, to healing. That's, I haven't really honestly, have not thought about that, but I like it a lot because it's, well, I have thought about it on a personal level, just like being in the lab and just doing my thing and I'm like, whoa, this is weird.

Like, this is cool. Like, I see, you know, these similarities with me and the mushrooms, like always. I think we all are like, you know, we stem from fungi. You know, they are ancient ancestors. So we have more fungal cells within us than we do human cells. So it's like, okay. Yeah, that is very interesting concept. And I'm going to bring it back to the table and just kind of like give it some thought about how to mesh that with the patient, you know, to mesh it with a therapeutic process.

You know, I think that that could be incorporated into the methodology or it could be incorporated into the healing. And it could almost be like a graduation. ceremony where like someone maybe sits with someone the first time they take it, they learn how to navigate the environment, the psychedelic environment, you know, so they're not scared. They have someone to integrate with. But ultimately, you want them to be on their own and be able to solve their own. And I just think, what a nice way for someone who was holding space for someone to give them the gift that they can then cultivate and then maybe give to somebody else. It's like a real sort of learning process there that allows the individual to understand, maybe not mastery,

but understand graduation. I think that's a good word for it, but there's probably a better for it. But I don't know anybody doing that test. And I think if you incorporated that into your model at novel, I think you'd be first in class. I think that you would have something that no one else is doing, but everyone would begin to incorporate. That, yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. I'm going to have to owe that one to you. That tip. But I really do like that idea and, you know, like you said, fitting it into the methodology. And, you know, what we were talking about before, creating that independence. So if you can even grow your own medicine, you know, hallelujah, there we go.

And I think it also allows you to truly understand when you have to take care of something. Well, when you have to take care of something and you watch that growth process, you understand it. And I think understanding is, you know, a key component, you know, understanding the medicine, understanding yourself. It helps you understand the world around you a little bit better and, you know, to lead a more prosperous life. So absolutely, you know, teaching cultivation is something I'm already passionate about. But definitely teaching people to grow, you know, their own psilocybin containing mushrooms is, yeah, it's life-changing. There's a lot of people that might not have the, you know, the space or the time and just even the interest. And that's okay too.

That's absolutely okay. For those that are interested and would like to take on that task, it's, yeah, it's a beautiful experience. And just enriches the whole experience, even more. more. Yeah, and from like a whole psychological level, you know, a big part of helping people in psychiatry is getting leverage on them or getting them to get leverage on themselves. And if you could get into the mind of someone and say, look, I want you to grow this medicine. And as you're growing it, I want you to think about what problem it is. It really intertwines intention and motivation and problem solving.

Because if you're going to grow something from injecting from a spore print or anoculating a jar, however you decide to begin it, like that's the beginning. Like, imagine if I have a relationship problem and I come to you and we have like one, you know, or we come to your company or whoever's holding space. And you say, look, let's talk about what it is you want to fix. Let's talk about what it is you want to solve. And then we go through maybe one sitting. And then I say, look, I think you have a grasp on this concept. But if you really want to understand it, I want you to try to grow it from the spores. And as you're growing it, I want you to think about what this is going to look like when it,

when it blooms or when it rises or when it fruits. And I want you to think about all the language. Like when this thing is ready to fruit, that means you're ready to solve this problem. And you have done it. And if someone can take like four weeks, it's almost like a meditation. Like you go in, you grow it. And that four weeks of growing it and growing your intention, like that's the leverage you need to solve that problem. And that may be the difference between someone solving some really difficult problems, whether it's relationship, whether it's, you know, someone was abused or, you know, depression or anxiety or any of those things.

Like that is the real healing that they would do themselves. The more I think about it, the more it's so awesome, test. it is it really is it's rewarding looking deeper into anything is is um there's so many lessons you can see there's a lot of metaphors um that we can find within cultivating you know uh you know like about relationships that was interesting you know don't neglect the relationships don't neglect the mushrooms you know so um yeah there's a lot of um connections there and it is really rewarding, you know, to look deeper into things, absolutely, because it's a mirror. Yes.

Yeah, I'm big on Carl Young. So when you say mirror, I'm like, oh, yeah, this girl gets it. What do you think there seems to be this relationship between psilocybin mushrooms and language. And I'm wondering, if, first off, if you have noticed that particular relationship, and two, what do you think that is? Like linguistics? Yeah, like the way you begin to explain things or it seems like on a high dose to lecybin trip, words fail.

Like language begins to fail, but you can still think of concept. Like you can describe things, but you can't really explain them. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, I see where you're going with that. And I think it's because, you know, language is made up, you know, to survive. Like, it's necessary for survival. I think when you are on a higher dose, you are at loss of words because they're not necessary. You know, I, yeah, language is communication a way for us to communicate and survive.

And it's funny because like, you know, the higher doses, it's like the death. Yeah. You know, so like, I do. I guess like there are no words. And you're just like solely tapped into like this other realm of consciousness. And words fall away because they're not needed. It's fascinating to think. I guess that's my, just my, like, put on it.

Yeah, I love it. What would you consider a higher dose? What do you consider, like, a high dose? Well, I mean, it's dependent, variable for everybody. But, you know, Terence McKenna, you know, his gauge was the five dry grams in the dark. But, yeah, around, you know, five. Five grams is getting up there for sure. That'll take you to a, that'll take you to the loss of words for sure.

Everybody's different and just something you've got to experiment with. Yeah. Yeah, I have found that up. One thing that I've been kind of zooking out on lately was this idea in which it affects you. Like, for me, it always comes in waves. And I think that that's something most people find is that. Like if you take your three or your five, 12 grams, whatever you're taking, you know, all of a sudden you get this come up and then it kind of fades.

And then you get this next wave and you go down this thought rabbit holes and you're experimenting this other dimension and then it kind of fades. And then it comes back stronger and then it kind of fades. It's like a tide at the ocean coming up or at Lake Michigan have tides. I think it does. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Right? And so the same way that wave comes in.

But what I started thinking about was why? Why does the trip come in waves? And I've spoken to many people about it. And the best answer I got was that...