TrueLife - The Church of Psilomethoxin - Benjamin Moore

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

Today we investigate The Church of Psilomethoxin with one of its founders, Benjamin Moore. http://linkedin.com/in/benjamin-moore-88595916

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Seraphini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. So Friday, it looks like we made it. The True Life podcast. I'm so excited to be here today. We have Benjamin Moore, who is an amazing individual. He's got an awesome story that,

I think everyone here is going to be really excited to listen to and learn from. So without any further ado, Ben, could you be so kind as to maybe introduce yourself? Yes. Hey, how you doing? My name is Benjamin Moore. And wow, there's so much to talk about. But yeah, I've been in this space for a long time. And I started working with psychedelics, specifically with myself in 2018,

in a very deep and meaningful way. And through all that work and through all the time, and connections to people has brought me here to where I am now and this is you know really an important place and I how I see us in the intersection of time in this reality whereas we have a chance you know to really continue to fulfill this the prophecy of the eagle and the condor which are sort of some of the tenants that drive drive how I look at the approach of this this sacrament this supplement this medicine this this this religious freedom where now is the time where we're connecting reconnecting technology, science, and the spirit of nature and sort of marrying it into one,

into one unity where the separation is sort of coming to an end. So, you know, I can go really, really deep into what got me here if we have time to do that. But yeah, in 2018, I was at my wits end, you know, I was serving. I got assigned to do recruiting. And there was no, there was no, there was no more escaping for me. I joined the Army in 2013, really, to change my life. In 2010, my mom passed away and I became an alcoholic and life was not, life wasn't, it seemed to be good on the outside, but it really wasn't great. So I knew that I needed to be put myself in a place that could connect me with other people that had a higher purpose or a higher mission. So, you know, I joined the Army. And I decided at that moment, I was going to clean my life up,

everything, become a different person. And that worked okay for a few years. And in 20, you know, somewhere between then in 2018, I started drinking again and I became an alcoholic again. And I realized that all the things I brought into the Army were still there. And then all the things that that I went through in the Army were just on top of it. And I was remedicating myself with alcohol with substances. And in 2013, when I had remembered, I was at my wits end. I was sitting at recruiter school and had no motivation. I was like, well, I already reinvented my life once. There's nothing left for me. Like, it's over. And so I remembered in 2013, when I returned home from deployment, a friend of mine handed me a film canister and he said, do you want to try some

mushrooms? I was like, you know what? Sure. So, so I had, so, so him and I split the canister of mushrooms and he put this song for me. So this movie, there's a movie Inception. I'm sure most people know it. And Hans Zimmer did the orchestra for it. And then there's a time, there's a song called Time. And on YouTube, there's a 10-hour loop of this song. And so he put blindfold on me, headset on me. And I laid in the living room for, it seemed like hours, and just exploding into this like constant cycle of love and connection. And then back to myself and then back into like like like just full connection and I remembered that feeling I was like you know what I want to give that feeling a shot maybe that'll be good enough so I being in the military I had no no knowledge

or connection to get these things so I go online and I got all the ingredients shipped to my house when I got home from school from recruiter school I started starting growing my own mushrooms and the first fruits that came, which was in like two months, I started eating right away. I was like, oh, there they are. So I started eating them, and I started dosing myself every month, twice a month, sometimes, sometimes more than that, three, five, sometimes nine grams of mushrooms, every, you know, regularly. And my wife was, like, really amazing holding space for me and, like, telling me I was, like, speaking in tongues and talking in the voice of my mom and, like, going through all. all these different realities that I had entangled in my mind of my past, where a lot of us do. And so it took a long time to work through that.

And then 2020, pre-COVID, I was like, I was like, I got to talk about this. I was like, if I stand on the street corner, people are going to think I'm crazy. So, so I saw in my feet, it just popped up like some psychedelics invention in Arlington, Texas. So I went to Arlington and met with a bunch of people, talked to everyone I possibly could because I was, you know, I was, that was the way. And I met a veteran who he's like, after talking in for like two hours, he's like, let me, I got introduced to you my buddy who's an attorney. And so he took me to meet his buddy. And from then all of 2020, we were trying to figure out how to buy land in Mexico to bring vets down to. work with them using these plants. And this isn't something that's new. There's, there's been

many before us, we've been all trying to figure this out. And it's, you can see it now. There's, there's centers in Costa Rica and Mexico, all these people that are figuring it out. But for us in our circle, the, the, the travel restriction with COVID and seeing how vets, how difficult it was for vets to travel. And so in November of that year of 2020, we brought eight vets down to the Yucatan to do medicine work and to sort of see what world we were trying to build down there because we were working with Amaya Nahito to lease land from them. And so, yeah, we brought them down and did all that work, but the stress of traveling with vets that are dealing with mental health issues or physical issues is heightened when you're going internationally. And so that pressure was really on us.

and we sort of pulled back and started trying to reevaluate things. And through that process, my partner works with 5MEODMT or Bufo, and hearing through the airwaves that you could mix or how could we get 5MEODMT, which is obviously now like Mission Within is using this and they're using this in a lot of different other circles to treat veterans, how could we get 5MioDMT into an oral, an oral delivery vehicle, like a less intense,

more smooth, longer lasting because 5MioDMT is one of the most prolific molecules for neurogenesis. So we really, it's really about repairing TBI and fixing all these, these, these neurons that are, that are sleeping.

And so he, he found through the, through, Alexander Shulgin back in the 60s proposed this substance, which was called Psyllamothoxin, and he made it in a lab, and he had theorized that mushrooms could produce it by themselves. So through the skunk works and the mothership here in Austin, he had the resident producer add this substance, this molecule to the growing, medium of mushrooms. And from it came silumothoxin. The mushrooms did what was theorized to do.

And so we did it. We did a test with it. And at that moment, the moment we started working with it, I realized, like, this is, this is the prophecy that so many, not this is, this is the only part of it. There's so many things that we're seeing that are fulfilling us to get back to nature. And that's really what we're trying to do is like bring nature and science and say, hey, listen, nature and science are not going anywhere. We need to put them together and blend them in a way where it's suitable and it's helpful for people. So we started using this, this molecule. And we shared it with a bunch of vets, a bunch of vets in our circle.

And it worked. It worked. And so for us, like I'm on a mission. It used to be 7,000 a year, was the numbers. Right now it's 16,000, probably more. because they're saying 44 veterans a day are committing suicide now. For the Pat, Alabama did a study. Like, the VA's been hiding this.

Like, it's a bad, bad, bad game. So for us, for me, it's like how, because the mission started when I started going to Mexico, it's like, how can I get vets help as fast as humanly possible? Give them another day, another minute. If you're waiting for another minute, that's all it takes. So this to me, this thing started representing the ability to be able to share this, new novel thing with people. And so immediately we realized how much money was going into researching psilocybin, how much money was going into researching MDMA. Like companies are raising billions of dollars.

And if we just put this on shelves, because this is a legal molecule that we've created, it doesn't fall in the Analog Act, doesn't exist in nature. So it's completely new and novel and not scheduled. And so we realized we needed to protect it in the beginning under under under a church. And really, really that's what a church is. It's like it's like holding this thing at the highest point of possible praise or worship or whatever. And so to us like this molecule being that really is it really does represent the freedom to to commune and use this thing and to share it with the people that it can help. Without anyone being able to interfere,

without companies that have raised billions of dollars to do research, can't come in and say, hey, you can't do that. Because we did create, we did create this, but this isn't something that like a human being, it's like the dreams of solving this problem manifested this. So that brought us to today. And, you know, spreading the good word.

Man, that's such an awesome story. And there's so much in there. I want to start off by saying, like, thanks for your service and thank you for having the fortitude and the courage to find a way to solve your problems so that you can help other people solve problems. When I look at the psychedelic community today, there's an abundance of great ideas. There's an abundance of great people. And there's an abundance of caring and lovingness. However, I do want to draw a parallel between the people that have gone. through their own experiences and then administer help versus the people that maybe have learned

in a classroom and then try to administer help. I'm thankful for both people. But I truly think that the person who has been to the front line of a psychedelic breakdown or been to the front line of tragedy and then use the substance to come out of there, I think they're a little bit more uniquely qualified to help other people. And I sense that in you. I think that that is why the mission is so strong in you is like, look, I've been there. I've had these thoughts in my mind.

I've no people that have died because they couldn't get over this last little hump right here. And I get that sense when I talk to you and I read your profile and I see the stuff you're doing. And you've gone, you and your partners have gone out of the way to find a vehicle that can rescue other people. You know, if you look at the church almost like an ambulance or the Red Cross or all these symbols that have happened to us in life that we're familiar with, it's the same, it's the same symbol. You know, when you look at the sacrament like that, it's very similar to a cross and that it is religious in nature. And this is the thing that may, if you fit all the qualities, you know, and there's maybe there are some people that shouldn't have it. But I think that what you're doing is a symbol of progress and moving forward. I want to say thanks for that, man.

Oh, dude, it's my pleasure. The reward is so present in the lives that it's changing. It really is. Like, it's, and it's, it's, it's, it becomes strange to say, like, this really is, represents such a powerful solution. You know, like all the antidepressants, SSRIs, they have under 50% efficacy rate. It's really abysmal. It's like, might as well just drink a glass of water. And so, and so what's really interesting about this is people are using this to quit their SSRIs as we speak.

They literally turned them off. And this is creating the ability to bridge the gap and their lives. It's crazy that we're using these pharmaceuticals and people are still dying by the mother load. And I have friends that just not long ago have ended their life that were prescribed. They were on like five, six prescriptions. And so it doesn't work. And that, so the ability for us to take people from that point where the, because to most service members, which is notwithstanding the entirety of the community of all of humanity, but, you know, my focus is like this most, one of the most marginalized groups. And so service members, when they take SSRIs and all these pharmaceuticals from a doctor who says these things are going to help, there isn't anyone else to them.

There's no one else that can give them advice or guidance or recommendations because they just got given the best course of action from the highest qualified person. And these things aren't working. So then they go like, who do I trust now? Do these things work? It becomes weird when there isn't a solution. And it's really like, I don't want to say cancer, but it's cancer of the mind. And the difference is like chemotherapy is designed to kill. everything and hopefully your cells that are good survive it.

And that's maybe what SSRIs are, like kill everything and hopefully you come out on the other side. But that's not a solution. That's not a way to live. Maybe that's a way to like try to get the numbers and statistics, whatever. That's not a way for human beings to live. And so how can we get them off of SSRIs? And psilocybin was like sort of a thing, but it has a tolerance. You can't after a day if you're microdosing, you know, for everybody for optimizing their life,

they're doing microdosing like one day on, two days off, and whatever the cycle is, because they're like, how can I study better? But for vets, it's like, how can I not kill myself? And that's like a thought that it's happening all the time. So this is something that people need to have an intervention for, like SSRIs are that regular pattern of consumption. So if all these other substances, they all have tolerance, LSD, microdosing. So those are like viable things in a way to like get people in a wave, but asylumatoxin doesn't have that tolerance. So people are able to take it every day whenever they need it. If it's going to be a stressful day, people can take it.

If they're going to be home or sitting on the beach all day, they don't have to take it. And it doesn't, it doesn't, there's no, there's no tolerance effect either. So, you know, people are able to shift. And that's what, that's the fear of taking people from SSRIs and antipsychotics into plants is there's a, there's a wave of having to adapt. And that wave is where all the psychiatrists and all the psychiatrists and all the practitioners are in the most fear because you have to get a person from one place to the next. And once they get there, they're good. It's the transition.

And that's why it's to stop SSRI is like 48 weeks of intensive, you know, back and forth and like analysis to make sure that you're okay. And with this with this substance, I hate to say it's like a substance, but with, with this molecule with this with this spirit, people are able to just turn it off and turn it on the next day. Yeah. Yeah, it's a, that's a, I really like the way you put that. And it seems to me that, you know, S, I know some people, and I think everybody listening knows people that have been on SSRIs.

And they don't necessarily, I've taken SSRIs. And I, it doesn't bring you to the conclusion that you need to change things in your life to be better. It makes you feel good so you can continue to live the shitty life that's making you feel bad. It's like a giant patch they put on you. Now get back out there. Yes. You know, where if you, now I've never tried the psilomythoxin, but I have tried mushrooms and I have tried these other psychedelics. And the experience that, in my experience, is that you come to real realizations about why you're feeling the way you feel.

Yes. You come to real realizations as, hey, what can I, you start asking some serious questions. Why do I feel this way? How can I be better? What kind of an environment am I in? Why have I been doing this for so long? And that's the difference. at least one of them a little bit.

Let's shift back a little bit to psilomothoxin. So I thought it was fascinating to hear that it was originally in Shulgin's work. Yes, yeah. And so now there's a process to have the actual mauselium produce a fruit that contains that silo mithoxin? Yes, yes. That is fascinating. Yeah, it's what it's the saying goes, the the further you look into life, like the smaller you, the smaller, the more powerful instruments

and the smaller you look at things, the, you know, the university is escaping you, is escaping your perspective. And so there is magic happening in the mushrooms, and I'm sure people are going to, you know, extrapolate and study all the parts of the growing and all the parts of this. But in the, you know, in the spirit of this, for me, I know that we have a chemical, I'll say chemical school. You have a chemistry that we have an understanding of how to feed, yes, the 5Mio DMT to the mycelium in vivo. So it's all alive. There's no, it's not added after. It's not injected. It's not sprayed on. And they produce it. And yeah, from the last October, I think the first week of October of 2021 is when we started the first dietta with it. And we've been

sharing it with people ever since for a year. And, you know, so, and we're really allowing All the things that I'm telling you that it does, obviously an experience, but we're allowing people, individuals who are curious and want to participate in their own well-being, define this because I think that's really important. If we give people instructions, not that instructions aren't good or bad, but if we give people instructions that limits their applicability. And we know that our consciousness and our experience is a spectrum of reality. There isn't a, hey, you're a this type of person or you're a that.

We do this. We make these labels, but we have a spectrum of reality. And so if we can just create the opinion that we are all doing some sort of optimization of ourself, that we're all just trying to be better versions of ourself and not be another self because you can't be someone else, you can't be another person. We may aspire to be like them, but we're always going to be ourself. And so this most represents, yes, the ability to look into yourself. And that's what a lot of the psychedelic work does, especially if you're doing it with good intentions.

And then that's the importance of all of these things is when you're consuming nature and when you're commuting with it, we set intentions for our life and we build a container. And so in the immediate vicinity, when you build a container, you make your ceremony, you take your sacrament. and then your container is holding you and holding that space and energy for you to create or produce who you want to be. And the more we work with ourselves, the bigger we make our container. And so eventually the container starts as like a room. Like this is my school bus. This is my container.

And then the next size container is like a house or a community of people. And then the next container is bigger. And then we realize because we're all doing this work and these things are syncing us up that all of our containers really are like overflow and we're connected. And there's not like a wall in the containers. Really, we're just, we're all part of this whole thing. And then that we can dissolve all of the differences because we all realize that we all have to forgive ourselves first. And we have to look in the mirror and say, I want to be better. And the only way I can be better is ignoring the things that made me this way.

The things that made me this way are still within other people. So if you can ignore it within yourself, then you can forgive others. And then you can get on with your own healing. And they can get on with your own wellness. and know that, hey, I have had TBI. I know I need to take care and treat myself. This is how I do it. Because I love myself.

I'm going to make sure I log this process. And that starts with the first step in building your container and your ceremony. You know, and it just multiplies from there. What a liberating feeling to know that you did it. You fixed yourself. You didn't rely on some doctor to give you something. Like you did the work and that's why you got better. And that's why you can help other people.

want to talk shift gears into like we can we can if you have anything and all just stop me whatever but like oh i really i think it's fascinating to think about the religious aspect of it because yeah if you go back whether it's the bible or the hebrew bible or you get into john a legrose you know the the cross and the sacred mushroom or mercii eliads the forge in the crucible or you can even look at some temples in japan that have mushrooms in them the idea of there being a sacrament to communicate with God. However, a religion defines God. That has been in our history forever.

There's a lot of literature that backs up the idea that Jesus thought that God resides within you. And so when we look at religion and we look at sacraments, I think of the Eucharist, today in the Catholic tradition, where someone will take this wafer and it turns into the flesh of God. You know, I think Terence McKenna wrote a book called The Flacraments. flesh of God and he talks about mushroom. There's there is so much literature that points to the same ideas that build the foundation of your church that build on the ideas of religion in the past. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that aspect of it.

Oh, totally. So the, so the oldest, the oldest recorded sacrament worship was in the, the sealy, cave, cave system in Algeria. And you know, there's, everyone talks about like dates, but 13,000 years ago is like the, is the furthest date that they think that, you know, there's a picture

of this shaman like in a bee suit that has mushrooms all over him, all over him. And then there's these little lines drawn to these, to these characters into their head. And, you know, so our ancestors and that, that, they say those people are what formed

that became Egypt. And because I was all in that same area and it was all like lush, beautiful, green. And so we were communing with nature when we started learning how to communicate with each other. And it's been with us ever since. And so in that knowing, you know, we, we have done a really, I don't say strange, but it's a controlling thing in America with religious definitions. I mean, it started back when they took a way. way the Elusinian mysteries. And the Christian church came and like cut the head off. All of our,

all of our female, this is like the feminine energy was guiding us, was guiding human beings. Those were those were who was who were holding the medicine. Because they were holding us human beings. They were, the feminine energy is what brought everything into existence. There isn't, this doesn't exist without that energy. And we've, we've men and masculinity. And we've, and masculinity. And war and scarcity has taught us to get rid of the feminine energy because we need to take what we need now because there isn't any time to wait and for thousands of years following well almost 2,000 years following we've been living in that state of being where the masculine energy has been operating the levers and has taken away and you can see it in all the and all the cult stuff

which which which trial stuff it's all it's all it's all part of the same energy that was created then. And so the the real truth is the freedom is always with us since we were born. Since our first the first animal, since the first life was created on earth is divine. It was the sun made it. If you want it, if you want to like scientific, the sun made it all. And so we have in America followed that spirit and put some limits or put some limits on what we define as churches, but the founders did a really good job with the First Amendment, and they said the government can't define what religion is. And so what is religion? It's, is it, it's every breath. It's every move, it's every action. And we can define it and we can use other people's definitions,

but that goes back into leading yourself. And as veterans, we're always taught, like for me, we're always taught to lead ourselves. And we're the leaders, we're training the next leaders that are going to replace us because we're going to leave one day. And if we just leave with all our bags, then our spirit, in essence, disintegrates. But if we live a life of intention and live a life of freedom and liberation, and we're doing this with others, then our legacy stays behind. And it motivates other people. And so, you know, back to that. Thankfully, the founders, they enshrined this freedom of interpretation.

It's not, they didn't give us a law. they enshrined the interpretation of practicing religion to us. So we can interpret, regardless of what the government says, the Constitution is explicit. And so we can interpret the religion however we want to, as long as we're sincere in those beliefs. So for us, and really people can, you know, if you break it down, people can be worshipping grapes.

if it's a sincerely held belief. And so who proves that? Who proves that belief? Well, you do. And you do it by practicing it. There isn't a permission slip. There isn't instructions. Religion is free and it's used by those who practice it.

If you don't practice it, if you're waiting for instructions, if you're waiting for rules, then it's not sincere. If it's sincere, you do it. Just like, you know, God bless them. Just like in, you know, when some, someone asks you, do you believe in God? And if you believe in God, and if they believe in God, if you don't believe in God, then say, I don't believe in God.

But if you do, I'm going to kill you. If you don't, I'll let you live. And then the people that believe, they say it. And it's like the martyrdom. I'm not saying to be a martyr. You have to be able to stand up and be unafraid to believe your beliefs. We've gone so long since, so we don't know as a species how to believe our truth inside. of us. And the plant spirit, in Mother Earth, really, she's given us those truths. Everywhere we

farm cows and they poop, mushrooms are produced. That's why in India, they don't kill cows, because cows give them the ingredient for Soma. And Soma is what gave us the medicine that they were serving at the Elysinian Mysteries. So we're in a place that we've severed that. But the reality is it's all around us. It's in abundance. Everywhere you steps, 347 miles of mycelium. The mushrooms are here in abundance to give us to give us abundance. Abundance is love.

And so we took, now we're going back in the solomothoxin thing, but like we took this abundance and this love, this love that was given to us by the earth. And we've married it with scarcity of science because this 5MEODMT is, is this very scarce and very, I don't say underproduced, but it's produced what is needed. There's not very much of it that's in circulation or used. So we've taken this super scarce thing, which is the fear of men, and why we destroy the earth is because we're scared that we're running out of water. We're scared that we're running out of food. And so we destroyed the scarcity by mixing that with the abundance of nature. And so now we can wake up to the truth that we do live in an abundant world.

We live in an abundant world of resources. We're just lacking, we just have a scarcity of mind. People think we're running out of water, but there's hundreds or thousands of miles of riverbank that we can be moving people. If you need water, get a life straw. It's just, we've figured out how to complain and how to look at the speed bumps in the road, except instead of all the lights and magic that's happening all around us. Yeah, this idea of a false scarcity is,

that is the control mechanism by which, people in positions of authority try to contain us. They try to put us in a little vehicle and say, look, there's no water, but you can tell by the mat behind me, like, we're a planet of water. You know what I mean? Like, what are you talking about? How many water? It's right there. It's everywhere. There's more water than land. Yes. And I, it's amazing. I really think you did a good job at explaining the idea of scarcity. And I think you did a great job at explaining the the coming idea of the marriage between science and religion.

Because I think that that is what religion is. It's people think that we have somehow taken science out of religion. But in fact, they go hand in hand. If you look back at the past, science always went together with religion. And, you know, I can understand the difference of separation. church and state, but I think that that's why sometimes we can't get along is that we have put up all these dividers between man and woman and gay and straight and black and white. And like there's all these wedges that have been driven.

Yeah, these ideas, these labels are just wedges that are put there for us to see the differences between people instead of seeing the similarities. And there's way more similarities. And so, you know, I really think that that's what the, the, I haven't tried the sacrament from your church, but I really think that that is what the mushrooms and LSD and all these different substances have the ability to do if you're willing to understand it. I wanted to ask you,

now, I wanted to go back a little bit in that, in the beginning you were taking people down to Mexico and to Yucatan. I think that there's a lot that North America can learn from South America. Oh, totally. I'm curious to get your opinion. For those of us that were born and raised, in North America. Going down to South American can be a bit of a foreign idea, especially there's a lot of people who may have never traveled in their life or may have lived in a small

part of the country. I really like the idea of you bringing what you've learned and into a setting in North America where maybe people can go and feel familiar because I think there's a big part of learning about what you're doing. There's a big part about worshiping and a big part about being comfortable in your environment. And sometimes I worry that people that go to South America, they can have an ayahuasca experience. They can have these experiences, but they're not part of that culture.

And so maybe some of the translation gets lost. So can you maybe tell me about some of the differences that you've already started talking a little bit about it, but maybe you could tell us about some actual people that you have helped while in the United States versus maybe in South America? Yes. Well, using the sacrament, as a matter of fact, using asylum with oxen, specifically I have, there's a veteran that I, that I, that I, that I, we went out and did Bufo ceremony with. And part of the integration during the ceremony, we, we began talking. And he said that he's had shrapnel down his spine, down in his leg and, you know, pushing on a bunch of nerves. And he's always in pain and always, you know, it's always hypervigilance. So immediately when we got this, when we started getting this, I started sharing with him.

And he hit me up one day. He's like, Ben, just letting you know, I haven't ridden a bike in 20 years. And I just rode for 25 miles. I'm just like, what? You know, so, you know, directly. And then, you know, I got a, yeah. So that was, I think, one of the most powerful things that got me, like, set me off. Because in the beginning, it was just sort of like,

this is okay this works like it feels good to me i was already deep in my process so so to me i was like you know it helped me a lot but to see the the the massive change uh in a in a veteran's life was like catalyst catalyst to me like let's go let's keep going and uh yeah since then um i've shared it with with a couple vets that were i got one a buddy of mine who's actually still active duty um the beauty here is this is legal. He's still active duty. He's on, he's on a bunch of, a bunch of prescriptions. And he's like, he calls me. He's like, man, I know, he's like, I can't do this. I can't keep taking, I can't keep taking all these medicines because it's like I feel, I feel like I'm just a shell and I don't have a person inside. And, you know, I'm like, let me mail you these things. And so I gave him some,

I gave him some, unfortunately right now we're in like a transition phase because it's not that it's hard to produce, but getting the chemistry down and getting, getting the logistics down has been a challenge. One we've overcome, thankfully. But in the beginning, it was like, okay, I have this many to give you, like I can give you two weeks' worth, you know, but we really need a solution for that can be ongoing. But yeah, I sent him some and, you know, immediately he's like, he's like, I don't know what's going on, but this is like the best feeling I've ever felt.

I haven't felt this good in, you know, 10 years. And, you know, these are guys that are like, you know, really heavy, heavy lifters in the military with a lot of with a lot of combat trauma and so it's it's it's it's it's it's it's obviously I'm not going to name names but you know these are guys that I've worked with and these are guys that that that I'm very personal with and yeah it's important to be able to to get that kind of feedback because you know at the end of the day we want to we want to keep the fire burning I guess you could say and when I know it works and I'm like oh shit that's like I need I need I need to call 10 more people and 10 more people because it's

everybody has like this, I have a mission driven, driven life. I don't, I don't subscribe to just, you know, I have this, these, these few tasks to do and then I'm just going to hang out. Like, if I'm not putting my energy to a purpose that is, that is serving other people, other vets, then I feel like it's like, not like useless, but I'm just bored. And so that, that needs to happen as, as fast as humanly possible. So we went out today. So every Friday morning, We do a Friday morning microdose hike, and a bunch of vets showed up. Today, a bunch of vets showed up, and everyone gets a microdose, and we go out and hike different trails.

And we don't really talk much, you know. It's like we're out. And then, you know, we take a break and we like dump. And then we're back in nature. And at the end, like, everyone's like, oh, my God, I love doing this. Like, this is the best thing you can do is to just stop and be outside and appreciate life and appreciate nature. And then what the microdose does is it dials you back.

So all the thoughts and the words and the looking for things to happen, which is a vet, which is like hypervigilance, it sort of vanishes. And you can receive all the gifts of nature. So yeah, I do this. I do this every week, you know, with whoever shows up, you know, sometimes I think last two weeks ago, like 10 people showed up. Today, like four people showed up. But yeah, we do this, we do this regularly. And it works and it's helpful. So.

Yeah. What a novel idea, a little nature therapy to get out and be part of. We left it. Remember, we left it. We left nature. There's anything wrong with air conditioning because in Texas, it gets hot. We can't forget. We can't forget.

We can't forget because part of life is the experience. And if we numb our body, that's what SSRIs are doing for our brain. It's taking away the contours and the contrast. And because we're like, I don't want to feel this way. So let me just insulate my whole life. And then that goes outwardly to insulating your whole body. And if we're always in a constant state of zen, quote unquote, then you never want to leave it. And then when you never want to leave it, your mind is like, what are you doing, man?

Like, why are we just in the air conditioning and why are we just comfortable all the time? You know, if you build your own discomfort and you plan your own discomfort, not that it's uncomfortable to go for a four-mile hike. But if you plan that, then you are the architect of your own struggles because you're having until now I got a plan to get up. I have to plan to go somewhere. Oh, and there's other vets that are there, and they're sort of counting on me to show up because, you know, we do this together.

And so you become the architect of your own process, you know, and that's all the healing right there. You know, the dream is eventually to not, people will not have to need any substances. Like, ready, they just go out. Like, yeah, I need a little therapy. I'm going to go on a walk. But we have to get, it's getting there.

And for a lot of regular, I want to say regular, but most people, that's just normal. but in the in the spectrum of the population that isolates themselves and thinks that their their problems are bouncing around the universe and they're all just right in here that's what we that's what we do this for so they come out on friday and just dump if they have to like sit with them for however long it takes you know hung out with a vet two weeks ago at the waterfall and just dump dump dump dump dump and that's it and now because they were they've been given a vehicle to get it out they're better and then they can give their best

self forward to the next person. And without anything else, except they've released themselves. And nature's helped that. And I believe that we've, because we've run away from it and we've isolated ourselves, we're in this trauma with nature. So we've got to dive in. We've got to dive in. Man, I love that.

It's, man, it gives me goosebumps to think about people that might normally pay a therapist, like a hundred bucks for like 45 minutes. And that guy just cuts them off. Okay, 45 minutes is up, you know, versus going out with the team of people that actually know you and care about you and may have gone through similar stuff. And you can just sit with them at a waterfall and let them talk. Hey, go ahead, what you got, man? Let me hear what you got. Like, that's so beautiful to me, man.

Thank you for doing that. Like, that is making the world better. And like, I hope so. Yo, without a doubt, man, without a doubt that's making. Doing my best over here. We need more people to do that. And I agree. I really think there's something to be said about being in nature, because if you can understand the way the world works, then you can understand the way that you work.

And you had said something earlier about how, you know, you gave this beautiful metaphor about containers and how it grow and how you're growing and how we're growing. And another way that I think that can be done is if you just look at the way mycelium grows, grows underneath us, and it can, it can move information and nutrients from one root structure to another root structure. Oh, yeah. And I think that that's similar how it's working through us. If you look at, you know, it's weird to think, if you ever just go and look at like the root structure of a tree, sometimes there might be one in your yard that comes up and you're like, wow, look out of this crazy roots and there's all this stuff.

You have an oak tree out here. I do that all the time, actually. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, it's eerily similar to the way. Like the brain looks. If you look at all the neural networks inside a brain, it's eerily similar to a root structure. Or you can't see all the little red lines of the supply chains on my map over here.

But anybody who has a map, you can also look at like a globe and look at all the red lines that go across where all the shipping lanes are. That's kind of similar too. And if you start panning back and going, wow, the same way mycelium works on the root structures and moves the information or moves the nutrients across. so too does it work in our brain that way. And if we look at each individual as a fruiting body, like a mushroom, it pops up and all of a sudden now it can help other people, you know, and someone can consume your information at the waterfall, or they can give to you the same way the sacrament can move through.

Like that cannot be a coincidence. Like when you begin seeing yourself as coming out of this world, instead of coming into this world, I believe that's when you can truly begin to help people. I think that's what you're doing, Ben. I'm so stoked to talk to you and your partners and hear about this vehicle that you guys have set up to help other people, man. It's got to feel really good about that. And you're doing it in a safe and sincere way, which is the platform that we can.

Yeah, right? Like it's a beautiful spiritual journey. How else do you think that this particular thing you're doing is optimizing human potential? Oh, well. So I have a friend of mine. is veteran, trained a professional UFC fighter, or not UFC, I want to say that word, trained a professional fighter using this. It's obviously not a ban substance.

It's none of those things. But yeah, so going from, because if you look at optimization, you're optimizing, if you're optimizing, whatever you're optimizing, it's at its current state, whether it's at the state of hypervigilance or stress. or whether or whether that person is already any elite athlete. So, obviously friends on SSRIs using this to get off SRIs. And veteran friends who are training professional athletes,

oh, I got another friend that does, there's a paddle, a paddle boarding event where they paddle 88 miles from Florida to the Bahamas every year. And, you know, so I sent some to a friend of mine that does that as well. Because, yeah, it takes wherever you are in your process and it's going to give you like a, like a, I don't know, a dimensional or a level up in like the density. So you're able to process more information in a smoother way because what vigilance is, because I can tell you exactly, I remember this, sitting in a restaurant and counting people, counting exits, making sure that there's, you know, the back is. covered, doing all these things in process, and then evaluating human beings as they're moving around.

And that vigilance disconnect you from reality with others that aren't paying attention to that. And this doesn't necessarily turn it off in that way. It gives you more information density. So the things that are happening just sort of vanish to your front, to your, to say like an management thing. It's like the, you know, the front of the house. It goes away from the front of the house. So you're able to be present and things just happening.

And you're not using those things to latch on to attention. Like, oh, my God, that dude's moving. Oh, my God, there's a sound. And you're able to be more present. And that's just like in that optimization point. But then, you know, when I'm doing when I'm doing weightlifting and being able to take just a little and go and do some squat cleans and feel more connection. to my process and the activities that I'm doing.

And I'm able to, I want to say push through pain, but I'm able to ignore the things that would limit me normally and able to train in a more optimized way. So yeah, for me personally, there's both of those spectrums. And that's how it's been in the feedback for everybody. And, you know, I really don't, like we don't want to define it because I don't want this to be an antidepressant. I don't want this to be, but I also don't want this to be like a, you know,

a performance enhancing drug. You know, I think it's like, it's all about optimization. It's optimization, optimizing the system, optimizing the system, optimizing the experience. And, yeah, that's, I think that's what brings everybody onto equal footing because we don't want to limit anyone and say that you can't do it because you're not this or you're not that. If you're optimizing your human experience, there's no limits. And that's like the truth of nature. And that's what all these plants are telling us as well. It's like, you have all these limits on you.

It's like, you know, get rid of the limits. get rid of the chains, get rid of the ties to find, and free yourself and be alive. Man, it's so awesome. Much like you, I love to read and I love learning. And I think you just did a tremendous job at explaining neurogenesis without any sort of technical jargon. Like, that's so amazing to me. Like, so, you know, George, what is, I'm moving the stuff to the front of the house over here.

Like, if we had, if I had a picture of a brain up and there was all this stuff running through about neurogenesis, I think that that would be a pretty good description in layman terms of exactly what that is. And I see that with people who have been working with different psychedelic substances. Is they're explaining in layman terms exactly what's going on in the brain so people can thoroughly understand it? And it's just fascinating to me to think how working with different plant medicines can reveal what is happening not only inside you, but outside of you in a very easy to understand, albeit technical way. Like that's so fascinating to me. Like it brings me to the idea of that information isn't something that you really learn. It's more something that's revealed to you.

you. You know what I mean? When we get back to the idea. Yeah, it's there. It's insights. And if you look at some of the greatest thinkers or some of the greatest inventions, you know, whether it's Tesla or so many people have said, look, this is not my idea. It was given to me. It was revealed to me.

And even in scripture. Artists, the same thing. Yeah. Like musicians. Yeah. The most prolific musicians. They're like the divine is speaking out through them. We all have it. We all have it. We are all, we filtered it. It's all, the divine is, is, is, is, is, is our inner truth.

It's our inner love. And we've all filtered it from childhood when we've been told no. This is, this is for this purpose. And, and we've, we've, we've stopped allowing humans to grow up and define reality for themselves. And that's the source. That's, that's the source of the divine. It's, you are already perfect.

And the world is like, corralled. you and we live in a factory farm. So it's only a it's only the by as above so below right. You said like all these things are the same. So if if we live in a factory farm, then we're the factory farm animals. And so we need to be liberated from that because when you're when you're stuck in a pattern of thought and a pattern of experience, you don't know anything else. And yes, so the psychedelics, they just like, they wipe the slate clean. And then you can discover like, oh my goodness, I didn't know the sun was that beautiful. And that was that was it that was like the most impactful thing. Because I can remember after my first five MEODMT experience, after I came back into myself,

immediately like I was crawling out from the shadow and the sun, it was just like, it was like a magnet. Like I just wanted it. And I wanted to feel its energy and its power. And I knew after I sort of came back and started reintegrating in my mind, I'm like, I've never experienced something so new. But it's something I experience every day all the time. It doesn't end. The sun just does its thing. But these things, there's these gifts that exist in reality that we ignore so often because we're told how to define them. Oh, it's just a sun.

It's, you know, it's giving us, giving plants, photons, or doing photosynthesis, they're growing for. roots, that's no big deal. But like, we are, like we shouldn't exist. So the miracle is like every moment. Every time the sun comes up, it's like all these, all these beautiful things exist, the flowers and trees and things that just happen to be. And those are the gifts. Those are the gifts that we've been ignoring. And the plant spirit, Mother Earth, she's like, remember me, remember me remember where you came from like this is the gift this is the heaven there's no other heaven like this is it wait a minute ben are you trying to tell me that a Tesla won't buy me happiness are you trying to tell me that I don't need to have a million dollars in the bank to be happy and I just

can be myself and go outside and be happy is that you're trying to pull here oh yeah oh yeah those things not those things not that those things aren't marbles and amazing I mean absolutely I love cars yeah that's but that's part of that's part of the that's part of the that's part of process that's like when you create the abundance. We're getting us to the abundance part. And then all the other stuff that's like art, right? Most artists, most artists create the most beautiful artwork because they have seen that that scarcity doesn't exist and they can create the abundance with their hand or with their sound and that's where it comes in. And that's where these plants are doing. They're like there's abundance everywhere. Ignore the things

that take from you and only listen to the things that give to you. And then, And then everything else will, we'll, we'll set itself straight. Do you see the, the voice, like, if we just talk about those as voices, like the, the things that call to us, like abundance versus scarcity. Do you see the voices of scarcity beginning to grow softer and the voices of abundance beginning to grow louder? Yes, without a doubt. Without a doubt, it's, well, there's no, there's no way to hide it anymore. we we just we just need to know who to listen to and what to look for but the internet thankfully was built for reasons we don't want we don't need but like just like anything war we can't we can't go back and change the past but war is hyper connected the planet it's made logistics

quick it's made us be able to share information across vast swaths of space and so the the truth that has been hiding in the shadows is now in plain sight and the systems can't ignore it anymore. So people are seeing the solutions, and we become what we see, just like you see in Instagram influencers. If people are listening to people that are paid to behave in a certain way, that's taking from them. And so if you're not paid to behave in a certain way,

if people support you what you do because of the way you behave, that's people to listen to. That's the people to follow. And so, you know, we've been like juked out of psychology because we hire psychologists. We literally hire like clinical psychologists. to work in marketing companies to like cut your brain open digitally and sew in their their plan or whatever they want you to do. And it's it's it's it's really bad. So you know, we're at,

we're at the point where I don't think that information can hide anymore. And it's all here for us to learn. We just need, that's why like part of my part of my thing is like I'm just trying to continue to connect people because people do consume things in abundance. from, you know, diet fad companies that are trying to sell them some, some, some, you know, 30-day weight loss, you know what I mean? And that's not the answer because that's, it's, it's driven by money. It's driven by consumerism and capitalism. Not that those things are bad, but they're like a vehicle or a tool to use to exchange value or energy with people. But when you've hijacked them, then we, we, we, we, we stay in the way that we are now. But yeah, information has,

as totally, I think totally leading us in the right way. With us being able to share like this right now, people can learn. Yeah, it's interesting that you talk about how some psychologists or, you know, even a lot of science, if we just use science as a catch-all, has been used to fundamentally change the way people think. It's almost like a CRISPR technology where they get in there and they take out that part and they put in this other part, you know, and they've created this bridge of,

oh, let me change out your idea of happiness for this idea of productivity. Let me change out your idea of well-being for profits. And, you know, that's when science divorced, science-divorced spirituality. And that was in the beginning,

and we've divorced spirituality. And science, like philosophy, philosophy and science are really one and the same. Yeah. Science is just like proving out the philosophy, you know, in real life. and we've divorced. The philosophy is science, but philosophy really is religion.

And philosophy is a belief. Philosophy is an understanding. It's not an experiment in itself. And so, yeah, we've divorced those things. And that's why we're sitting in this place and solving this problem as we go through it. Because the answer is it's the philosophy coming back and guiding the science instead of science being guided by money. you know and I don't like to say money's the enemy but it's the love of money right it's the obsession it's the control of money or the flow of money and that's what it's like a people control but philosophy

philosophy is like the application it allows this these things to be done in a more spiritual more sacred way because it's a belief and it's a and if we just believe in money or believe in getting wealthy then it's just going to cause more calamity yeah we know when you think of the word holy, I think the etymology of that is whole. Like, you know, it's whole together. And this took me a long time to begin thinking about because we do, in the beginning when you start realizing things, you get upset, you're like, dude, it is this money.

It's these people in power. It's war. And you start going down this rabbit hole of all these things. But the truth is, those are all necessary. Like those, I know it sucks to say, and it's hard to think about. But if you're honest with yourself, all these atrocities have been necessary.

And if I think about it, like this is the way that I was able to integrate it is that like when you look at birth, like if you've, anybody who's bad the miracle who has been lucky enough to have a child live through childbirth and you've seen it like, there's a real chance your child can die. There's a real. And it happens all the time.

And my heart goes out to every person who's lost a child or a wife. or a loved one in any way, but especially in childbirth. Because there's this miracle happening and there's those blood and there's guts everywhere. And you're like, you know, it's, it's tragedy, it's comedy. It's everything and it's right there. Like birth and rebirth and rebirth. And like that is us. We are constantly being reborn as a person, as a species, as a planet.

There's the cycle of life and death. And like all these things that have happened in just our short history. on this planet have been death. Now all of a sudden, I promise you, if you can look at it that way, then you can begin to see the life being born around. There's these green shoots. There's people like you that have found a way to not only come through tragedy, be like, okay, I made it through.

Who can I help? I'm going to call this guy. It's not enough. I've got to help 10 more people. I've got to help 15. And every one of those people is now going through a process. It's like the earth has reached out, be it the sun, be it, God. Muhammad, Buddha, Jesus, Ezekiel, whatever form you want to say that has inspired you,

has reached out now, and now you have the ability to help other people. What is this rebirth? So think about these tragedies as not something you should dwell and live in, but as like a catalyst for you to now move forward and see the things that are happening. Like when I listen to you talk and when I see the work that you're doing, man, I just want to give you a damn hug because I see that you're helping other people. Yeah, man. Like I see that what you're doing, I see you're helping people.

Let me talk about this. So I've heard you talk about psiloma thoxin as a micro dose. Yeah. Have you know any, have you attempted to use it in like a macro dose? Yes. Yes. Uh, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't taken more than a gram and a half personally. Uh, but we have people in our church, uh, female who, uh, female sexual trauma or military

very sexual trauma. She took three grams, which, you know, it's in like psilocybin mushrooms, like good strong psilocybin mushrooms, three grams is pretty strong. And so, yeah, she, she messaged us and she said that she had a transformational experience that it was amazing and it was soft and not like psilocybin, but its own, but its own thing. And a lot of healing had transpired. And I don't want to go too much into summarizing and stuff she said. But it was really super meaningful to her. And she worked out a lot of the problems that had got her into the mindset that she was in. So it was really rewarding to hear that.

And this is a person that has been working with ayahuasca and mushrooms and other sacraments as well. So very versed in the space. And yeah, so it was important to get her feedback because, you know, no matter how much work we're doing, we always reveal things and our minds are always working through processes. So, you know, it's definitely rewarding to be able to hear that level. level of healing at that dose. I'm someone that I'd work with that because I know female sexual trauma is huge. It's almost like 30% of all females that serve when they leave.

They're going to leave with sexual trauma. That's not sexual harassment. That's physical sexual trauma. So it's a big epidemic in that specific category as well, which I'm definitely moved to here that it helped them. Yeah, we've got a lot of work to do helping our brothers and our sisters and our becoming better people. And you know, I've got two ideas that you had talked about that really speak to my

heart. And it is the idea of bringing back ritual into the idea of religion. And not so much where there has to be an authoritarian structure where like someone stands up there in lectures or someone comes up. And like those things are all fine. And I'm for any type of healing. long as it's working. But I really, really have a fondness for reading about the Elusinian mysteries. And, you know, we can look back to a time prior to monotheism where there was all

these pantheon, pantheon of gods. And some of my readings about the Elusinian mysteries are, are it's been a ceremony that has been going on far far beyond monotheism and i was recently i don't know i hope this is sound pretentious i was recently at a winery right i'm guilty of it i was at this winery it was beautiful and you know that's good there yeah i know i love it i love it and we were up in northern california and i sat down at this small table overlooking this giant vineyard and i just had this sort of vision in my mind where i was like wow I wonder if this is something like the Elusinian Mysteries. And, you know, from what I've read, you hear stories about people making, first off of pilgrimage to get there.

Like maybe it takes a day or two or three days to hike out to this remote area. And then upon getting there, maybe you, the first day you receive this sacrament and you watch, imagine being in a giant open air theater. And you're watching this incredible play take place, this, tragedy of Persephone and Demeter and this woman watches her child die or lose or get kidnapped or something. Imagine a light dose of psilomothoxin or whatever people are familiar with. For me, it would be like maybe a few grams of mushrooms and all of a sudden you're enthralled in this thing. And you have no long, you have almost given up your personal identity to participate in a group

identity, to become one with those around you. And now you can see this. incredible play and take part in a tragedy together. And that to me is like the ritualistic idea of us healing. It's like, hey, let's take part in the tragedy of life together. Can you imagine having like imagine me and you and some of our listeners and some of our veteran friends or maybe our parents or our younger people that are becoming to get to go through this right of passage and you see somebody die and you feel that together like, And then all of a sudden the person comes back. They find her and they're like, or she comes back to life where you find the kidnapped victim. And it's like, we went through this thing together.

And what a great way for us to understand that we're all part of each other. That as much as we are an individual, we're also part of this same organism. I'm wondering if you as the church of Syllamothoxone have begun to incorporate rituals. And I just want to say one part of rituals is that, you know, I think, think that if you look at some of the indigenous tribes or even some of different smaller ideas of religious ceremonies, the ritual is something that allows, that not only points towards the thing we're trying to get to, but it allows you to participate in that thing. So you're getting to experience yourself on multiple levels. And I'm wondering if your particular church

has thought about, or maybe they already use that type of ritualistic ceremony, to heal people. Yeah, so specifically under the auspices of the Church of Psyllamothoxin, we're just, we just do a virtual church. And on Sundays, there is, for members, there is a talk that is shared, like different topics or different subjects. But, you know, for me personally, so that, the Church of Silomethoxin is for us literally just protecting the molecule and all the activities.

And all the ritualistic work is like more individual. So for me, yes, last weekend I was out in the desert with eight other vets. And we participate in this sort of ritualistic approach where we go there and the person that is, someone that's someone out there in that circle sort of organized the process. And everybody's sort of acting out a part in the play. And everybody's acting out their part and not something. some other parts. So it's like you're playing the character of you and the person you used to be and you get to participate in this communication and then we all are playing that part. It's really

interesting. We're all playing the part of that character. And then we come to a point in in the, this is like before ceremony begins, that we are able to speak to ourselves through other people to solve our problems. So we're like, exchanging and someone's playing a part of, you know, someone played the part of my mom. Someone, you know, someone's playing the part of another vet's dad. And, you know, so it becomes like really a beautiful, a beautiful synthesis of other people helping to act out this role. And really what you're saying is really huge because this is one of the most powerful,

I'll say, group, group ceremonies that I've, I've done. been a part of because we were able to act our own thing and do our own through our own process. And so we did this and like basically, I want to say disintegrated or destroyed the old version of ourselves by throwing it into the fire. You know, we all like sort of had these things. We wrote it all down, all the things that brought us to this place. And then everyone stood around the fire and we all threw every, through the shirts in the fire. And it was like, you know, blaze of glory.

and then we're like now we're infants we've shed it all and we're doing the and we're doing the part which is cool and then we went through the ceremony and you know came out the other side and like reborn and really like ritualistic in music and circle and people crying and people rolling around in the dirt and and and and it becomes a place where a bunch of warriors can take off the shell can take off the armor and take the sword and like beat it beat the sword into a plowshare make it a shovel that you can plant a tree or a plant you know we had shovels we have all this stuff and and because it's it's all of us know that we're building the containers out to uh to intersect with each other but yes the ritualistic approach is not necessarily vital but it is it is extremely helpful in illuminating

to people especially especially those who uh maybe not maybe not ready for a full dose or a full dive into the process, to have the ability to see others doing this or even just knowing of others doing this and it sort of gives them some bravery or some courage to say, oh, they did it and look at it. They're, look what they're doing with their life. They're making better decisions and they're happier. And so maybe I want to try that, you know, but there is, I think there's something, something to be said about putting in the work, you know, doing the walk, doing the walk, getting to the place, you know, getting to, to, getting to see what's possible.

Because everyone can say no all the way. And that's what the acting part is. And then the ceremony is the community with nature. So it's like doing the act, seeing what you can be, seeing who you can be. And then are you ready to go? And that's what the medicine helps with. The medicine helps with, you know, because we want to believe it. But like, just like God, everyone wants evidence that God exists.

And it's hard for someone to say, I believe no matter what. And so we believe, I believe, we can be better. I believe I can be that person that I want to be that's not hypervigilant, that's not thinking all these things. It's not thinking why did this happen to me? Why did my family leave? All these other things. It's whatever. I just disintegrated that part of me.

This is what I want to become. And now I can now I can fully disintegrate my ego as we're trying to, everyone says ego death, but it's not really any, it's not, I don't think it's really a death. I think it's really reevaluating and then your ego gets to be reborn. And that's the willingness is being able to give your ego a second birth. You're born when you were born, you know, and in the limited view, we go, we want to die before we die so we know what dying is like. But really, like, there isn't a way to die without being reborn, and we see this. So we know that. So that's really what we're, that's really what we're working towards is like, how do we, how can we give birth to ourselves and to what we want to see?

And another sort of like a little powerful tip is the mirror, you know, the world is our mirror, as we say it, I guess, or we're the world's mirror, however that works. But really mirrors are so important. And in psychedelic work, actually I was talking to a vet today. He's like, they told me, people always say, like, don't look in the mirror when you're working with psychedelics. And I said, no, look in the mirror. Like, look in the mirror. Stare yourself in the face. What are the eyes?

He's like, they're the window to the soul. And so we spend all day, all week, all month, looking into other people's eyes and other people's souls. We're looking for ours. And it's right there the whole time. So, get a mirror. Man, there's so many points there, Ben. I love it, man.

Like, there's so much you said that, like, I don't even know where to start from, if you die before you die, you'll never die. You know, like, you plow your, you bend your sword into a plow. And like, I love all of that. Like, I've read such similar that. And maybe it's the accounts that we have heard that bring us together.

Maybe it's the idea of mycelium growing us together. And I agree 100% what you see in other people, be it good or be it bad, is only recognizable because that's what resides in you. And if you can remember that, you see someone acting. I'm like, that guy's a dummy. Guess what? That means you're a dummy. You recognize that. And maybe that part, maybe that's being showed to you.

so you can help that person or you can help yourself. But that's the reason why you see things in other people is because you recognize it in yourself. And now, listen, we've talked about a lot of awesome things. We have talked about helping people. We have talked about some, a lot of great things. But I think it would be irresponsible for us to continue talking only about good things when there are things that are difficult. Like, it can be scary. Like, look, and the truth is, if you approach psychedelics and you,

don't have a healthy dose of fear about them, then you're being a little bit irresponsible. Because everybody I know that has done the work and you must do the work, you're going to find yourself in some dark spots because you can't grow unless you get past those dark spots. It can be frightening because you are confronting demons. You know, if we keep it in the context of a religious setting, you've got your own demons to slay. And no matter how much I love you, no matter how much I care about you, no matter how many landscapes that I have been through that you may go through or vice versa, I can't kill that demon for you, man.

I can tell you how I killed mine. I can share stories with you. But like you said, you got to do the work. And people who go to the church or who find a friend or, you know, like you have to do it. And I think that that's where the glory comes from is. Because at the end of our ceremony,

you and I can stand shoulder to shoulder and be like, did you do it? And you be like, I got them. I was scared though. You know, but can, let's, start with that. I have something after this that I want to talk about, but let's talk about the fear. Let's talk about killing demons and how that you can't do it for people. You can help

them, but let's talk about that part of a responsibility. What can you share with me? Well, yeah, so everywhere, everywhere you shine light, there's a shadow. There is no avoidance. It's the knowing, the knowing part is it's all you. It's not anyone else. you and you're in control. And one of the things I remember, I was, I was working with DMT and I can remember being in this place and it was like a giant factory

of light. Like shapes and the shapes were moving, but there was a flow and an organization to it. And I remember being present. And I'm like, like down here, I'm like, hope they don't see me. Hope they don't know I'm here. And then it took me a minute and I realized like, wait a minute this is me this is me but it's not but it's not it's not it's not scary but i can't do anything

to change the things that are here because they're present anyway and i'm present so how do i how do i deal with that and handle that information so just basically just stood up and i stood up and the the the all the fear like it vanished because all fear is doing all fear is doing is making you not look at it. It's like when something is scary to you, you want to look over here. We've been giving so, we as humans have been given so many options to shirk our attention away from the things that are that are dark and difficult because you can just go, I don't like that. Click, scroll down the page. Oh, wow, it's music. You can start listening to that. And so, so I got in midway through my, through my journey work myself, noticing I was doing that,

like super light, super light, super light, super light. Because I wanted to seek the light. I wanted to ignore the things that were causing me stress or pain or struggle. And so I was doing that. And I realized that everywhere I was casting light was creating a shadow. And every perspective that I was just, it was solely casting light on, it was creating shadows that I was ignoring. Like with my family and my kids.

And it was, it was good in that because it illuminated to me. Because no one's telling me this. I have always been since I was a kid. I've always been teaching myself things. No one's ever mentored me or I've basically learned how to cook on my own. I did everything. So, you know, like, so thankfully I was able to uncover this because my family being a good support system, which is important to have a support system.

So if you don't have a family, you're working with psychedelics, you need to make friends, stand in the streets, wave your arms around, just say, I need someone to talk to. But, but yeah, so they helped me uncover that I was ignoring the, the shadow part of the light that I was shining because I was always looking at the good in everything. And the real thing is like we live in this way where the light is like our spirit and the ego is our body. And I think the ego can be looked at as a shadow in a way because the light guides us in a direction and our body really follows it. You know, we're going to dream what we want to see and then our body follows and experiences it. And so we have to make sure that as we

create our experience and our dreams to accomplish or to or to to achieve that we realize that our body, our physical reality impacts not only us, but everyone and everything around us. So I walk barefoot. Like, so I can feel the earth because if you don't, you're going to step on things that you didn't know we're there. And it's not, and it's not, and it's not, it's not, it's not like to stop you from causing pain or harm or struggles with others, but it's to. help you recognize that all of the things you do and everything you touch affects something.

And so then you can get some, let me say empathy, so you can understand how you intersect with the world. And that starts to not make the shadows go away, but that starts allowing you to hang out there because you know that pain is required and struggle is required. It's not something that can be avoided. And so especially working with these medicines, once you realize the physical reality is you're safe, these things can't kill you. These things are safer than coffee. They really are. You can overdose on aspirin.

You can't overdose on mushrooms. You can eat them until the sky turns red. And so when you realize that you can take your light self and you know that your physical body is going to be safe, then you can look in the shadows. And the shadows really are just the things we haven't reconciled about our life, the things we were ignoring, that we were clicking past or scrolling past. And they're not anything more than just memories or thoughts. But if you manifest them in the future, and that's what fear does for us is if we don't address the shadow, then we manifest those things into the future in front of us

because we're avoiding. And by what you avoid is what you see. What you avoid is what you experience. It starts to replicate itself. And so, yeah, so it's important to, to, in the knowing, know that your body's safe when using these substances as long as you're putting yourself in a good way, and then allowing your mind to really create the light to guide you, but your body's going to experience it, and your body's going to walk, and you're going to talk, and you're going to interact with people. And if you ignore them, if you insulate from them, you leave behind your shadows in them. And we want to not, we want to avoid that, because those things come back to us, and they remind us of the things that we didn't resolve. And we didn't resolve.

ourselves. So if you walk barefoot and you step on a lizard, you're going to feel, not saying that you should feel bad, but you're going to feel how important life is. You're going to feel how fragile this reality is because we are just the same. We are just as sensitive to the environment as any other animal. And then once we realize that, that all these things are gifts, then we can live in a more flowing way with reality. I'm not saying walking around barefoot all the time, but it's just having that relationship. And that allows you to live in the shadow stuff because it is, it's our physical manifestation. It's how we manifest reality. We're literally standing in front of the sun. You're casting a shadow behind you. And, you know,

you're creating it. Yeah, it's beautiful, man. All you got to do is go outside and look at a tree or look at something that casts a shadow and then look at the ecosystem around. What grows in the shadow of that tree? Are there certain things that grow in that shadow and certain things that don't? There's certain things that like the light and certain things that don't. And I know for me, you know, you can almost get into the Youngian idea of the shadow. But, you know, I think that here's a good one. My daughter's eight.

And she used to be scared of like the boogeyman and her closet or under her bed. And, you know, that is the shadow. You know, I had to explain to her like, look, yeah, yeah. Dad, there's a monster under there. Yep, I do the same thing. There's one under there. But you know what? You've got to make friends with that monster.

Because that monster is just as scared of you as you are of him. And I promise you, it's scary at first. But once you make friends with that monster, he's going to help you. He's not under there to scare you. He's under there to protect you. Think about anybody comes in your room. That shadow's going to get him. He's on your team.

Once you integrate that shadow into your life, guess what? Now you can become whole. And you know what? That shadow's dark, but he's always with you. You're dark. You have a dark part of you. but it's okay that dark part of you

can be your best friend because it's never going to leave you that shadow is going to follow you everywhere make friends with it understand it that's you that shadow and I think that that is another way people can

when you get in if you're in a psychedelic experience and you find yourself feeling the terror before the sacred when you get this like guess what that's you

let it go because it's there to show you. You turn to the left, it's there. Turn to the right. It's there. It's going to be there. But understand it's trying to contact you. It's trying to put his arm around. You be like, hey, pal, it's me and you, man.

We're on the same team here. You know, and I think if you can understand and integrate that shadow, my friend Kevin calls it shadow work. You know, when you're doing your shadow work in these experiments, when you're going through these dark recesses, like, it can be scary. It can be frightening. but just the fact that you know it's part of you should at least relieve, allow you to take a breath or take a few breaths.

That will help you get through some of those dark times. I think you did a great job at explaining that, man. Thank you for doing that. Oh, yeah, totally. And just on that same wave, that's the importance of putting yourself to do this work. Because like, especially with vets, like deep psychedelic work really is shadow work. And to put yourself in a container. that you know you're safe, physically safe.

You know, because we obviously, the medicines aren't going to hurt us, but once we realize we're physically safe, and if we need support that someone's there, that will stand by us or sit by us or get us water, then we can go and then we can attack the shadows in the most radical way, because there's no reservation on, if I freak out, am I going to be okay? Am I going to freak out, am I going to hurt anyone?

My freak out, am I going to run off? And so, you know, the importance of having all these things in line that, and that comes from the beginning, like with the intention, with the intention of working with these medicines. It's not like, not that I don't enjoy taking acid at a music festival and running around and having fun, but, you know, but I couldn't do that before I started doing the work. I couldn't, that just wasn't possible. So having the ability to come through that process in a safe place, and for me it was at home with my wife watching over me. But for most people, that's not that. That's not the reality.

And that's why we're doing, that's why we have this, using the church to sort of protect this process so people can do these things in the United States. So we use different organizations, obviously, to do this with veterans here in the states. Church of Salamothoxin is specifically for that molecule. But, you know, yeah, it's having that container to be able to free yourself. So then, yeah, you can look at the shadows. You can look at all the things that are influencing you and not worry. Hey, my body all right, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there a certain methodology? Like I know that if you look at a lot of the people that are out there now, be it, you know, I don't know so much about Iowasco or these different. ceremonies in South America, but I see a lot of what's happening in the United States as set and setting, whether it's at John Hopkins or these other places, it seems that, you know, if you take the Terrence McKenna model, people take five grams and they lay down in silent darkness,

maybe with an eye shade or some music. But I'm wondering, you know, I've also heard of people that that take it and go for a run. I got a friend that will, he swears by, it's better for me that I'm going to take my three grams and I'm going to go run as far as I can. And that's for him, that's where he gets to work done. I'm wondering if there's a certain type of methodology you guys use or is it more open and maneuverable? Or what is it like if someone wants to come in, they get accepted into the church. They've gone through an evaluation. They've gone through all the things that you need them to do.

At that point in time, do you have a standard setting or do you just talk to them and try to figure out what's best for him? Well, so the way we apply, you know, working with like, especially with like these deeper medicines, you know, salamothoxin, notwithed-standing, but like Bufo or ayahuasca, even we had with the feds in Colorado. We, yeah, there's obviously an intake protocol, make sure people are on prescription medications that can can contraindicate with what we're doing. But, no, it's, it's just like I did last weekend, out in the desert, we follow us a pretty strict process. and we want to have things go from, you know, we come in, typically we do like a tobacco purge as part of the process. And, you know, opening the circle, sharing, this is why we're here, this is what we're doing. Not so overly controlled, but free creation. So we bring musical instruments.

We have some background music playing. And, you know, we're really communing with the medicines. And then allowing the inner child that these medicines. and sort of help bring out of us to be able to interact with it with with the environment. And so that's why I say like the importance of building a container. So we have, you know, sound bowls and drums and Maracas and all these toys to play with. So as we're going through the process and we have music playing. And as we go through the process, people are able to pick stuff up and just do just interact and play.

Obviously like in the beginning of the ceremony, it's very serious and very intentional. because we're trying to draw out, draw out like the inner divinity in people. So in the beginning, like I said, we put it, it's super organized like breathwork, tobacco purge sometimes, mindfulness, and then opening ceremony, medicine, and then through the medicine, you know, hour, two hours, three hours, however the cycle goes, people are coming, sort of coming up, and we're wanting them to play with, we're wanting them to play with medicine,

or not medicine, we're wanting them to play with the toys and the musical instruments and all this stuff. And that brings out the playfulness in them and sort of allows them to actually participate in the circle and participate with their energy instead of just, you know, I'm coming here to get healed.

I got to leave with like a band-aid. You know what I'm saying? So give me just one second. I've got to plug my computer. Yeah, man, absolutely. Let's a second. Yeah. Just a second.

Wink. There's it. There is. And we're back. Nice. So let me ask you this one here. Let's stick with some issues that could be troubling for medicine, people, and institutions. Like, let's say that I come to you, Ben, and I'm like, listen, man, you know, you've got this church.

We've got problems with Jim Jones and Kool-Aid. And you guys are doing this weird thing, man. Like what, what, like, what do you say to the people who are, or let's say this. Let's say that you have somebody that goes through your program and then all of a sudden gets the idea that maybe they are the, they get the holy man syndrome. Like, well, they decide, hey, you know what? I've done this stuff. Now, I am going to start my own thing. Is that something that is, is on.

your guy's radar. You know, when I talk to other people in this space, one thing people are worried about is some sort of resurgence of like a Manson or a Jim Jones or something like that. And what would you say to people that say, hey, man, you are beginning that process of starting something crazy. Or someone that graduates from your program may do something like that. Like what would you say to somebody that said that about you guys? Well, firstly, I don't believe in limiting any human beings experience. I do believe in giving them the best possible tools to be the best possible version of themselves they can be. And if somebody makes a choice to leverage the knowledge or the learning or leverage the medicine against other people, well, that's like shame on them.

But that's in a way that's sort of limiting, I guess limiting or pre-premonition on what's possible is sort of what creates too many rules to begin with. Because we know it in our deepest hearts, when we have abundance, nobody fights with anybody. And there's enough to share. There isn't any of that. And I don't specifically worry about those things because I think that in the goodness that people experience in these, these processes, the, the desire, unless they're not true believers and they're not actually doing the work, if they're just coming and taking, like, you can say like corporatism, it's like a corporatist approach, right? Which is like, I believe what you're saying, but I'm not going to experience it, but I'm going to monetize it. Right. And so, and so,

but that's, that's always going to happen. And so the best way to solve those problems is to create so much light and abundance and so much so much of people doing it in the way of love and light and then the other things will just fall by the wayside and we're never going to be able to completely stop bad actors from from acting badly it's just not possible and so I like the fact that this approach and usually in most most cases the approach to these medicines is very sacred. But yes, there are, but those are people that do those things regardless. Those are people that do those things that take advantage of, of other people, no matter what the scenario is. You know, before psychedelics, we've had, you know, everything's considered like

everything could be a cult, but there's been these things forever. And so, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't really spend so much time worrying about it because I know that at least, I know that my intention is in the most good and I can I can only do my best and nothing more yeah I agree 100 with you I I always want to try to push back on stuff though because I know that people people have questions that may be afraid to ask and so totally you know what I mean and I I look at it you have to be the key is the key is if you're a participant you can't be afraid to talk to the people who are organizing your event you can't be afraid to ask questions you can't be afraid to stand up for yourself because why are you there? Are you there in the beginning? You're there for yourself.

And so if there's any fear, if there's any resistance and you sense that, that's a natural feeling that you need to get answers to your questions. If you don't feel comfortable, stop, don't do it. That's the key. Knowing when you're, so if there's people that you are working with or that are working with you, that you get that sense from, like saying this to everybody, but you get that sense, just there's no, you don't have to continue. No is or yes is always revocable. So you can just turn around and leave and there's no judgment. And that's the key. We're all thinking we're being judged.

We all have to do this or we have to do that. If you don't feel comfortable, if you don't feel safe, if you don't feel good energy, leave. Hit me up. I'll put you in the right direction. Like seriously, it doesn't, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it can't be, it. It can't be stopped. People behave the way they want. So it's on us as individuals, as participants. Hopefully people get the knowledge to be able to discern when there's people that don't have their best intentions.

Usually you can get it, I think, right away. And especially with these ceremonies, you've got to be careful. You can hear it in, like, I say like ego. But people start sort of impressing upon you what you're supposed to feel or how you're supposed to see things or what you're supposed to experience. And like a good practitioner or a good facilitator would be removed from, would be removed from your individual ceremony or part of your ceremony that goes on inside. And the facilitator is here to facilitate your safe ascension within yourself, not here to impose their selves into your consciousness.

And so, yeah, you have to, people need to be unaffroning. afraid to leave if they don't feel safe. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. That's really well put. And I want to put a exclamation mark on the idea that the facilitator is not there to program you. And any facilitator that does begin to tell you what you saw or interpret that, your method is their job should be to listen and maybe help out from time to time, but their job

should be pretty much to listen. And I, that that is something that if, you know, I think it's called like, I forgot the exact term it is, but it's like when you expect something to happen, it's like your own cognitive bias of like, that's supposed to happen so it happened. Yes. And so a lot of people, when they go into any kind of therapy, you know, a lot of people have done their own leveraging. And it's important that they leverage their own, they have their own leverage on themselves

so they can change. And if someone is there in programming you, you know, you can, like you said, you can sense it. You can know when people are telling it. They go to buy a car. The person is telling you what you want to hear. And you know it, but you still don't do anything about it because you want to hear it, you know. And so when you find yourself in that situation, and I think that's what the medicines do is they help you to stop lying to yourself in some ways. Like they force you to see the light.

They at least open up your senses to the idea of like, ah, maybe I'm bullshit. myself here, you know? And, and so, but I do think that that is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, great way you put that. The facilitator should be there to not instruct you on what your remedy should be and it should be more reflective in questions like that. But Benjamin, I'm having an absolute blast. I could talk to you for another hour. I got to go to work though. And, um, yeah, I know, I know. But before we go, I hope, I got a few more minutes. Can you, can you, can you just tell us like where can people find you what do you got coming up and if someone saw this podcast and it's like oh man I'm a veteran or my dad's a veteran or my mom or maybe my son's having

a little bit of problem like what's the best way for people to get in touch with you or or just to move forward from the point they feel they're at now uh I mean I'm fully I'm my Instagram handles P5 I L O 5 Silo 5 silo 5 but the SILO 5 but the SILA is a five and like that's that's the extent of it because most of my most of my clients are referrals so which which is which is not a problem either or but if people want to follow sort of my approach and how I do things like that's a good place they can connect me on LinkedIn of course because my focus even though I work with work with work with vets and and civilians too but I don't I don't do I'm most of my time is focused on getting this this this

molecule spread to as many people as I can. So most of my, yeah, most of my time and focus goes there. And so I am happy to steer anyone into any direction they need to go that needs help. If people need help with any substances, if people need help with integration, like I have work with people that do all those specialties. So, and I work because of the nature of this in the past few years and the legality of things, it's all through referrals. And so I'm happy to, you know, anyone that,

is willing to connect with me, I'm willing to talk to and to get them in the right place and the right direction. So I don't tell anybody no. I mean, I may not be able to help them directly, but I know people that can, you know, in their respective places. So, yeah, definitely Instagram and I can share my phone number and people can connect with me on a signal messenger as well. Like, I don't, I'm not really, you know, I don't have any sort of reservations for that, you know, depending on how you sort of approach that. Yeah. I think people can, I'll put your LinkedIn profile in there. And then if people want to contact you that way, rather than give out your phone number to whoever's listening to this, which I'm, I'm sure everyone listens to this is an awesome person. I mean, because we're awesome people. But, you know, maybe make people take that first step to get leverage on themselves to reach out to you.

And then you can move forward. That's really good. If people take the time to make a LinkedIn post and LinkedIn profile and you connect with me. And so in the next two weeks, maybe four tops on the back end of the Silumathoxin website, there will be a community conversation page. So we're working on which provider or which company wants to organize this. And I'll be all over that. So we'll have a way to have all those conversations happening with me, me integrating it because like I said, that's my focus.

And LinkedIn totally. And LinkedIn does a lot of things for people, but it helps them realize their professional application of their life and gives them value, which they can obviously and then use. So, yeah, do that. Now with that. Yeah. And then as the site gets closer and closer to finalization and those forms come up, we'll have you back on and you can reintroduce what's going on and talk about some of the things there.

Totally. Awesome. Do you have any speaking gigs coming up or what if someone was like, man, I really liked what this guy said. I want to bring him out here to help some people in my area. Do you do some consulting like that work? And you've got any gigs and any consultants? I'll be, I'll be, I'm going to close the place specifically, but I'll be going out once a month

to the desert and I do that three or four days. Actually, Thursday is Mondays. And that's every, like, what was last weekend? So I can't remember the days last weekend. I try to pay attention numbers too much. But yeah, basically the same weekend every month. And then I have two weekends a month where I do medicine work here in Austin and then a weekend of freedom. So, but during the week, I'm always willing to do this, these types of conversations. I just have like stuff scheduled hours here and there, but my wife is very forgiving of my process and that I have to be connected into my work and it has to be connected into my life. So I try to make myself available. So if people want to speak or talk or go deeper with me, definitely reach out and we can schedule and make it work.

And I'm willing to do night stuff. I don't, you know, I was in the military, and I spent a lot of time doing things for long periods of time that I didn't necessarily want to do, like days and days, the operations training 24, 24. So I know the contrast and how far I can go. And the mission is so important to me that, yeah, if I stay up for a day and a half, that's what I got to do. Because I know that I'm trying to get this done, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying, man. I know, I know exactly what you say, man. So I'm super stoked to talk to you, man, is why don't you leave us with like a little tidbit, a little, you got like a little maxim or like, if you could just tell people one more thing about the church of psilomothoxin, about making, integrating, helping people, living life, what would it be?

Two things. thing one go into your room your bathroom wherever you have a mirror that you can see your face look at yourself in the mirror see yourself see your soul see who you really are this physical manifestation of your life is just your body you can become whoever you want to be but you must tell yourself you must you must cast this magical spell into yourself by using your words by using your spirit to generate the words and then you must cast them out. Your mouth is a spellcaster. You cast spells to your body and your body follows it with action. So cast a spell into your body that means something to you that can give you the change, even if it's small, even if it's just, I want to go outside and

smell a flower. Give yourself some small pieces of love and cast spells within yourself. And then your body will become that. You'll become that love that you want, that you want to see, you want to feel, you want to experience. And yeah, that's, that's basically, that's basically the, uh, the extent of what I see is like magic. We're magic. We're magic. And everyone I've, everyone I've intersected with and interacted with, you know, we have this magical device. We have like, it's a wand in Harry Potter, but it's this. We are doing it. We're literally doing magic. And sound is such an important powerful aspect of reality. And when we can organize the words within ourselves to lead a better life, I'm going to go

read a book. I'm going to go walk in the park. I'm going to go sit down and take a deep breath. When you do the things that you say to yourself, you've just fulfilled a promise, you've just cast it a spell, and then you know you can do it again. And that's it. Then you're on like the snowball effect. Yeah.

And then the word became flesh. Yes. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you all had as much fun as I had. I hope you all got to learn as much as I learned. And I hope you're excited about the rebirth that is the world we're moving into. I hope you got to take Ben's words and let them roll around in your head. And I know for a fact, you had to gotten a lot out of that because I know I did.

That's all we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. I love you guys. Aloha. Ben, stay with me for one second. I'm going to close this out, but I wanted to talk to you real quick. Thank you.