TrueLife - The Next Generation - Logan

Episode Date: September 12, 2026

Support the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USOne on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingGeorge kicks off a new series called The Next Generation with Logan — a climber, zipline guide, and 20-something he met at Vertex Climbing Gym. Logan opens up about his spiritual awakening at fifteen through Eckhart Tolle, a stretch of dissociation and mania that followed, and the months he spent at Alternative to Med Center in Sedona getting off medication and finding his way back into his body.The conversation ranges from what a real rite of passage looks like in a world that no longer offers one, to what climbing teaches about the line between fear and danger, to the psychology of dating apps, money, ego, and validation. George and Logan close by turning to the generational gap itself — what older generations miss about growing up saturated in screens, and what it means to build a meaningful life at the edge of a generation inheriting a radically different world.More conversations like this one are at truelife.transistor.fm. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Legal Disclaimer / Release of Liability for Podcast:This  content  is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing in this transmission constitutes legal, financial, or professional advice. I am not your lawyer, financial advisor, or telling you what to do.This podcast documents historical events, analyzes publicly available information, and explores hypothetical scenarios. Any actions discussed are presented as educational examples of how systems work—not as instructions or recommendations.You are solely responsible for your own decisions and actions. Any application of information presented here is at your own risk. I assume no liability for consequences of actions you choose to take.By continuing to listen, you acknowledge that this content is educational commentary, that you’re responsible for researching applicable laws in your jurisdiction, and that you’ll consult appropriate professionals before taking any action that could affect your legal, financial, or personal situation.

Live, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the true life podcast. I hope you're all having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I got a brand new show for you today and a whole new twist on the true life podcast. Talking to the next generation, I call this whole series, The Next Generation, talking to an amazing young individual right here. We met at a vertex climbing gym. If you guys are

climbers and you're in California, I highly recommend you check out vertex climbing gym. A lot of cool people over there. My guest today is Logan. He's in his 20s, a climber and works as a zipline guide. He's interested in consciousness, spirituality, mental health, extreme states of mind, nature, and what it means to live an active and meaningful life. He reads Eckert Tolle. He spent time learning about mania and psychosis. He spends a lot of his life suspended between the ground and the sky. And he's part of a generation that is going to inherit a world radically different from the one that I grew up in. So I'm less interested in telling Logan what I think about the future. And I'm interested in asking him something I've been thinking for a long time.

What do you see that we cannot? Logan's an awesome guy. We've had some awesome conversations. So I just want to turn it back over to you, Logan. First off, how are you? What's cracking? What's new, man? dude thanks man what an intro yeah um things have been pretty great lately you know um just just been doing my thing climbing a lot playing volleyball living that active lifestyles so yeah stoked that we met at vertex uh that one day and yeah thanks for having me on the podcast yeah man i'm grateful for it i'm grateful for it you know one thing i've learned in my life is that we use all these labels like i'm george the father I was George the truck driver. I'm George the podcast. There's all these labels we slap on each other, you know, but I don't think they accurately really define who we are as a person, man. Let me throw this over to you. This is an interesting question. Besides the resume, Logan, besides what it is that people may say about you, like how would you describe yourself? Yeah, I like that question.

Yeah, me too. Yeah, first off, I'm very into spirituality. So at 16, I had a whole spiritual awakening that started when I started reading Eckhart Tolle. And my stepmom, who is one of my greatest mentors in life, incredible human being so blessed that we met, she showed me Eckhart Tolle at 15 and started listening to his audible through the open door talking all. about the present moment and I just fell in love with that way of being and at that time I was going to Ecuador for my second time in high school with the program called Global Student Embassy we're going down there with Ecuador hanging out with the locals doing projects so that kind of spurred this whole spiritual awakening thing I was listening to Eckhart like nonstop down there it was my first

time falling in love with a girl that was in my class and it was like this all of a sudden like I from like kind of like uh in my shell like you know still like social like from the time i was you know teenager kid but then i just like exploded like when i was 16 um and i like got all into consciousness and like all into the present moment and like what it really means to like have that you know that piece that presence so that that's the first thing that comes to mind when i talk when i want to talk about going through any labels and you know crap like that man yeah 15 going to Ecuador. Like what an awesome beginning.

Like, dude, you're a young man. At the age of 15, like you are a young man seeing the world in ways that most people don't, man. Finding some awesome, beautiful young woman to spend time with. What kind of projects were you doing in Ecuador? In Ecuador, we were, like, helping, like, the local kids. Maybe just, like, hanging out with the local kids.

We have a global student embassy. So they were showing us kind of the works, you know. In Ecuador, they're a lot tougher. in us in the U.S. So, like, they know all about, like, chastying and stuff. And so, as a white kids, we're trying our best to hang with them. But, you know, we were trying to build some stuff. But for the most part, we were just, like, bonding down there, just having, like, a

great time. And it was just super magical. So, yeah, grateful for that experience for sure. And that's kind of what started me into this road of, like, spirituality and mental health and consciousness. It's interesting. Like, it seems to me, at least in my experience, when you try, travel like you're in a radically different mindset you know like you are seeing things for the first

time having brand new experiences and you said that was your second trip down there was that yeah yeah so the first time it was in freshman year okay and and it was incredible right like it was amazing seeing the world from that different perspective my first time you know traveling without my parents you're really like going into that adult going to that man but then it was 16 when And I really like felt myself mature into that. Like obviously you have several steps along like your path to adulthood. But that was a huge turning block where I was like felt felt that connection. And that's the first time I had felt connection to that strong to other people around me,

the environment and the universe like in that trip. And that that was the first time it just all hit me. I was like, boom. I was like, this is like what I want, you know. What was that through a program? Like let's say there's like some parents. listening right now or maybe some younger people yeah dude i'm 15 i want to go to ecuador like how did that how did that happen man so i don't know i haven't kept up if they're still going but it is global student

embassy it's short gsc it was through annalee when i was at annalee uh and then right before i went to orchard view i could still go so yeah i don't know if they're still around but i'm sure there's plenty of programs like that through high schools and such that that's still and i know they're out there that still take take kids out and it's just an incredible experience. I definitely recommend any teenagers, any parents listening. So it's so good to travel when you're in high school and explore the world. Yeah, without a doubt.

What, are those, were those private schools? Was that homeschool? Was that a public school? No, Ennally High School is the big public high school in Sebastopol where 13 Reasons while was filmed, huge school. Yeah, and then, so they were just, it was kind of a nonprofit that was working through us. man you know what there's so many great there's so many great opportunities out there for people if they look you know and i think whether you're a student or whether you're a parent like the opportunities are

out there for people to really explore the world and they come through all kinds of schools and i would recommend everybody who's a parent take a look at something like that like why not try to get as much out of life as you can you said your stepmom was it your stepmom that was the greatest one of the greatest influences on your life one of the greatest mentors yes yes my stepmom Can you tell me about that relationship a little bit and why she's one of the greatest mentors of your life? Yeah, so my stepmom is incredible. I met her when I was 11, but our relationship didn't fully, it just, you started developing and didn't, like, really get started in that spiritual way until I was like 15 and she was kind of helping me through that like normal high school depression. Yeah.

And then, of course, she showed me at Cartole. And she was just such an anchor for me. Because like anyone that's had a spiritual awakening knows that sometimes it can be a little bit crazy when you go through that. You're like going through different like fields of consciousness. People are thinking you're crazy maybe. You're dealing with mania. You know, the whole thing. So she was a huge teacher.

Like every question I could ever have asked. She like, she has this innate wisdom and she's so intelligent that she just knows how to guide me. And also just insanely compassionate. it. So I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, through my entire young adult career because I went through even more crazy shit and even more crazy. Oh, yeah. Do you, is okay? Is it okay? Is swearing okay on here? Dude, fuck yeah, dude. Even more crazy shit. And, um, I just, I went, yeah. And so she, she, she's just the most intelligent, like spiritual mentor, like guide, along with my father just equally as much.

He's just in a different way, obviously. But yeah, my stepmom, huge, huge guy, you know. What do you mean when you say normal high school depression? Like, like, let me tell, like, when I look at my high school depression, I think of like, man, am I good enough? What the fuck am I doing? Like, does this girl like me? How do I, why don't I have this thing?

Why do these people have that thing? And I would be pretty hard on myself, like going through there, you know, and I, I don't know if that's what all kids go through, but that was sort of my, when I look back at it now, sort of a young guy trying to find himself. But I don't know that I would call it depression. Would you use the word depression? What is a normal high school depression? What did that mean? Hmm. That's interesting because I feel like with the newer generations, it's getting more people are getting a little bit more depressed and they're having more hard feelings younger.

and I would say even less of me, but like the current current generation has even worse than I had, like, eight years ago. But I think, I don't know, I just think that that social media and like comparison, like, because it was already hard as a high school kid, but then when you bring in all this like extra stuff that we got here, I think that it definitely is amplified now. But I also think it's just an individual personal journey. Like for me, I just, before, you know, when I still figured out before the spiritual awakening, still dealt with insane stuff after, but before it was like still a lot of like anger and like, existential angst, you know, which I assume is like normal for, I think just high schoolers vary to the degree they have it. But I definitely had a lot of that. I was just like, why? Like, what am I doing here? Like, why am I, you know? And so that, that's what a spiritual aspect, like,

helps me a lot get those answers. And that's why I was grateful for that. But before that, I felt a little bit lost in that way. Yeah. You had mentioned that you were going through some crazy shit, man. Like, what was some of the beginning crazy shit that was happening to you, like, that made you have this? If you want to talk about it, I don't want to put you. I do want to talk about it. Okay, good.

Me too. I've had a pretty crazy story. Okay. A lot that's come up. But after the spiritual awakening, I, at first I dealt with disavit. We'll start start with that. Okay. And if you've, if anyone's, if they've never, if you never dealt with association, it's

kind of hard to describe, but it's, it's almost like feeling like when your soul, like, leaves your body. So, like, I was dealing with some, like, crazy, like, family, like lineage stuff. My stepmom likes to talk about it. And I was just, like, going, I was just going back and forth between dissociation. So that was, that was, that was, um, the, first part and then I had this whole story about like, had something

come up and then I had some like mania and I had to go down to Sedona, Arizona and that's the whole story. But there's a lot in into impact with that. So. Yeah. I know when I think of

disassociation, I think of like, I know my parents got divorced when I was pretty young. I didn't fucking understand. Like I thought I was the problem. Like, maybe me. And so I think there was some some disassociation there with like society, like kind of going inward and not having anybody to talk to. You know, it's interesting to think. How would you, like, how would you define disassociation? Is that like, you mentioned like your spirit leaving your body? I would imagine that would leave you pretty unhappy. But were you also withdrawing? Was like a

withdrawal from society as well or from yourself or from your family or what was that? Yeah, I remember, like when I first started dissociating it was like during COVID so you had that on top of it um but I just had I was definitely I definitely battled my demons young because yeah I had um a lot of just like health anxiety hypochondria that kind of related to my body and that anxiety kind of spurred this whole like dissociation thing where for me it was like I was in my body and then all of a sudden something would have happen and like I would just like leave and I would be like I would be like unrecognizable like if you if you saw me like my face would change like it literally like looked like my soul like left my body and I was just like it was crazy and then so then it would be like a week of like I don't know anywhere from two days to like a week of that and then all of a sudden I would it would like I would like be able to get myself back and it would feel like my energy would like rush back into my body and all of a sudden it would be like the most like

like intense like feeling that it was like so good to be back but at the same time it's like that's just because I was gone so I would have these like I would be navigated this for about seven eight months with my stepmom and dad of kind of like going back and forth trying to so I really experienced like the horror of what it feels like to like really be out of your body like really gone and you know it's not not good so yeah I would imagine like that could leave like luckily for you and with the help of some awesome people that sounds like you're able to navigate that but if that's i bet you there's people that feel that and have no idea what's going on like that could lead to being hooked on antidepressant or that could lead to like going down and being in a

trauma center or something like that like that sounds fucking frightening man and that's the main reason that i really do feel like a calling to work in mental health like i'm not sure where my path leads but like I feel like I was presented these experiences young so I can help people because I have all this wisdom and knowledge about these things mania psychosis association and I went this route of not going like of course you know I went into the system a little bit they put me on meds but then I got off the meds I got off the meds twice and it's like I've been living this this med free life for for four years now and like it's just so much happier that way and I really advocate for it because I went to this incredible program called Alternative the Med Center in

Sedona. And so, yeah, that's a big reason, like a big calling for me of this path that didn't lead me down this like being, you know, like you said, on antidepressants and all met it up and finding the other ways of dealing with your struggles, the dark night of the soul, you know, everyone, a lot of people go through. I don't know everyone. Everyone's path is different, but for me it definitely was an intense dark night of soul. It's called alternative meds in Sedona.

It's called Alternative to Med Center in Sedona. And that is the greatest place I've ever been in my life. It's the most incredible. If you've ever been to Sedona, it's the most incredible place. Like other than here where we live in Sonoma County, I love it. I'm actually going back in October for the first time since I was 18. I miss it so much. You just have to go to Sedona to understand it.

like not just the views and the hikes, but there's energy vortexes that people believe that are there, that I really believe you can feel this potent energy, this healing energy that brings stuff up. It's just intense. It's awesome. Yeah, I love Sedona. What were they teaching you down there?

Like it sounds to me like they're teaching you to come into who you are as a person and see reality and alternative states of consciousness in a way that sort of makes you be, less afraid of who you are and what you're encountering. But maybe you could describe that. What were the experiences down there when you went down there? Yeah. Yeah, I'll give just a little story because I did go there when I was 18.

And I was dealing with all the mania and psychosis from this traumatic event that happened. And my stepmom and my dad found this place for me. And they were like, hey, like, do you want to go down to Sedona? Like, I feel like, you know, there's, you need to kind of go away for a while because there's stuff you need to deal. with that more than we can handle it here. And I was like, yeah, that sounds amazing. So at 18 years old, I just had a bag, had the flight down to Sedona to ATMC. And I remember feeling, feeling like pretty like scared and alone, but also feeling like a deep calling for like this is what I'm supposed to do and also really brave.

So then I got off the plane. I found this place. And it's just, it's in the heart of Sedona. It's this incredible treatment center that they deal with everything. And their main goal is to get people off of meds that come there for years of antidepressants. You know, I was the youngest at 18, but then there was all people that were 80 that have been on meds for 60 years. But they deal with other things too. Like there was a kid that was like deep into psychosis that was there.

and it's an incredible place because not only does the staff, they care so much and it's like a family. But the patients there, the people that are there, it's like you bond so much over healing yourself in this area. And there was like times in ATMC where I was like, this is this two-month period, but I was closer to these people than I had experienced like ever with anyone, like even in a different way than my own family.

And yeah, I'd be happy to get into like the details. We did like sauna five days a week for two hours. That was the whole detox shop. We went on hikes. And there's there's so many stories, so much I could talk about from this place. But yeah, I'm going back to visit it in October for the first time in five, six years. So I'm so excited. You know what it sounds to me like?

It sounds to me like a rite of passage, like coming into adulthood. like at the age of 15 or 16. And in the Western world, like, we don't have that, man. Like you, there's no rights of passage anymore. But it sounds to me like, hey, here's a young person fucking experiencing these radical emotions, these radical spiritual ideas about who he is, about the life, about his relationship to the planet, to the world and himself. And most people say, okay, whoa, here's a drug, man, you better shut that off.

We don't want you to think about that kind of stuff. Don't you know you could be a policeman or you could be a lawyer? Why'd you want to be one of these pretty cutout ideas? We already have them mapped out for you. And young people, and it sounds to me like, you're like, fuck, I don't, dude, what about this? What about this radical spiritual nature I'm experiencing over here, man? What do you think about when I say rites of passage? Does that feel like what it was or what comes to mind when I say it writes of passage?

Yeah, rights of passage. I totally love that concept because, you know, I obviously listen to other podcasts. talk about how there used to be that in other like in tri-tribal times and we do feel like we miss that a bit in our modern world and I was kind of I don't know if lucky is the right word but I did experience that form of that when I was 18 and so yeah I mean and a memory comes to mind I feel like my like spiritual mental health right of passage was definitely like 18 like a night at ATMC when I really like felt for the first time like okay like I'm ready to become a man and I remember I remember like a specific moment where that happened for me so yeah let's talk about that

what was that specific moment man yeah um so I'll I'll try I'll not so the full story but uh it was it was it was uh towards my last quarter at ATMC and um I was dealing with a bunch of like, you know, the, I had crazy insomnia vans because I was dealing with, like, mania and psychosis and figuring out all this trauma. And ATMC is so cool because they let you experience what you need to experience. And like, and you can go pretty much like pretty far out before they're, because they're in a safe space. And they're like, we're here to guide you. And if that means like you don't, you don't sleep for three days and you go a little bit crazy, like, we'll let you get to that point before you get too far. And if we, the last case scenario, if we have to put you on meds again, just to get you through that part, we will.

But they don't, they want to do everything to not do that. So that just gives you a little bit of the idea of, like, the place that kind of we're working with. So it was definitely, I was in one of those spots where I hadn't slept for like three or four days. And regardless of what you're going through like that makes your mind kind of crazy because I used to have insomnia. Don't anymore. But anyway, I, it was this one night. and I hadn't slept and I could just feel my mind kind of going into this like manic spiral. And when that happens, your thoughts and your brain is kind of getting away from you

because there's the thoughts that come and you feel like it felt like it was this pressure cooker and it was like this runaway train. And I started getting scared. So I called my dad and all of a sudden I'm pacing around an ATM. And he's like he's trying to ground me. My dad is so intelligent and like smart and knows me so well. So he's like trying to do everything he can to like help me through this. But then they have a night staff there.

And she was like, do you want me to call John? And John was someone that I was really close with. He was the program leader. He was a facilitator. And I'm like, yeah, I sure call him. So this is, and mind you, this is three in the morning. So I'm on the phone with my dad. This lady calls John.

And this man, John is amazing. Like without like he, he got the phone call. and like came immediately and when he got there he had like a smile on his face and he was trying to relate to me like in like my way like my 18 California way so he's like what's up bro like how's going bro but it's like I can't describe like how like perfect it was in that moment he was just like a superhero to me so I was with John and you know at this point we were pretty close we had been there for a while and it was three in the morning and he could tell like I was you know I was freaking out I was not in the state of mind

And he said, like, you want to go to the gym? And I was like, sure, yeah, let's go to the gym. So I'm just, I'm in this car with him. We're going to the gym. It's a 24-hour gym in Sedona. We get out, we hit a little light workout, nothing crazy, just to try to get me back in my body. He takes me to a church because he's, I believe he's Catholic. I'm not Catholic, but he takes me there.

And we have this moment where we walk in to this chapel. I'm like sitting down with him He's like He does a little prayer for me And it was like a scene out of a movie Because I'm kind of manic And I haven't slept for four days And I'm just like walking through this like church

And I don't know where I am But it was like I was with John And then And then so then we go back to We go back to the office Where an alternative med center was And at this point, it's like five in the morning. The sun's about to come up.

And we're still trying to figure out ways to, like, get me to bed or get me back in my body, one of the two. So then John just goes, hey, you want to eat some raw eggs? And I was like, oh, it's five in the morning. And he's asking me about raw eggs. And I'm just looking at it. I'm like, sure. Like, I'll try anything at this point. So he goes and gets the raw eggs.

My first time having raw eggs, we, we, we, bowl. drink one together, you know, let's take a little bit. I'm like, yeah, I'm ready for another one. He's like, okay, we can do like one more after two. I take a third one. And then, and then, yeah, but the moment that I'm getting to is I was, I was, after all this crazy night, I was laying there on my fourth night in no sleep in this little alternative med center office with this couch. and I'm laying there on the little couch and trying to fall asleep, but John's right there with me,

and we're kind of just talking. And at that moment, he just kind of like starts, like, feeding me wisdom in this way, and I'm listening to it. And I'm just looking up at the office, and I see the sunlight coming through the window. And he just, he says something to me, like, remember in that you're 18,

and just remember, in and not overthink things. And remembering, and that's basically it. He's like, remembering that you're 18 and you're not overthink things and, like, you're just getting ready to start your life. And like at that moment, it doesn't sound like much, but like how intense it was, like, when I was laying up there, it was this moment where I was like, I just, I got like super brave in that moment.

I was like, yeah, I dealt with this crazy shit, like, all the way down. ATMC. I had done all this work and I'm like at 18 like I'm doing stuff that I feel like I'm conquering and so young and I was like so proud of myself and in that moment it just all kind of like clicked and I could see like my future and it was felt like I was leaving that kid behind, that scared kid behind and I was really stepping into that man that was like brave and was like ready to take on whatever he had to take on. And so that moment, that really felt like my right of passage right there. So long story short, that's my moment.

That's an epic story, man. It reminds me of like, yeah, thanks for sharing it. It's like the ordeal. You know, you got to go through an ordeal. You have to earn it in some ways. Yeah. Man. I wish more people had the opportunity to, first off,

have the ability to find a place like ATC. ATMC and have like a support group, like cool parents that were like, look, man, we think this is a cool spot. It sounds like you had really good communication with your parents and like an awesome relationship. But more than that, like you said, they let you go through the ordeal. Like they didn't like try to say, hey, this is out of control or whatever. Like, hey, let them go through it. Let him find his own way out of there. We'll be here next to him, but let him work his way out of there.

I do think that that's what it means to be become an adult to become a man. It's like, yeah, you're fucked up right now. What are you going to do? Why are you going to fix it? And there's no one there because that's sort of what it's like when you get older. And like, now you have this incredible foundation of like,

fuck, I've been here, man. I know I can get out of it. So it might be rough. It might be crazy. I might think I'm losing my mind. But I've been here before. I know how to get out of this. I know to get back in my body.

That's such a huge part of it, man. What a cool fucking. story, man. Thank you, man. Yeah, it's one of my favorite stories for my life. Yeah. Yeah. I can see it, man. Like when we met at the rock climbing gym and I see where you're at, like you have one of the coolest jobs on the planet, man, ziplining through trees. But beyond that, what I noticed when we were at the zipline tours is that you were able to ground people because there are people that go up, way the fuck up in these redwood trees out in the middle of this incredible forest, they get scared and they find themselves.

And you were really good at like, hey, you have a few awesome, like, witticisms and one-liners and shaking the tree sometimes to show people like, hey, you can just move this tree right over here. You know what I mean?

But it speaks volumes of your connection to not only people, but grounding people back in their body now. So I think those things are connected, at least on some level, man. That's pretty brilliant. Yeah, man. And I'm still working on it myself.

Of course. I'm a naturally overthinker. Like, it can get really far out there. So I'm working on staying grounded and staying in my body with techniques and meditation, too. So. Yeah. But I do feel like I've come a long way and I can. In that specific scenario, like, you know, what I do for work, it's like helping people that aren't very comfortable at heights, like, you know, work their way through it, like you said.

Yeah. And yeah, I do. People who fear. Yeah. And I do think that, that's the original thing you were saying about, like, letting someone go through what they need to go through, again, just reemphasizing that that's so huge. It was so huge for me.

It's, I feel like it's so huge for a lot of people to not just try to fix it. You know, that's people's natural implications. Like, how can I fix this? But if you just let them go through it and, you know, to a certain extent and they're kind of their support system for them and trying to guide them, but not too much is the delicate balance. But I definitely think that's the way. Yeah. It's maybe one of the most loving things we can do for people is let them, you know,

is let them fix it to be there for them. You know, sometimes it's, I heard a quote yesterday that said, sometimes it's easier to let go than to hold on. And the people that are trying to fix other people, they're trying to hold on. Like, let me hold on to this version of Logan that I know instead of letting him become someone he's supposed to be, you know, or let me hold on to George instead of letting him go. You know, it's hard for people to let this idea of somebody else they love go, but it speaks. It brings up this idea of consciousness, man. You recently told me that you're passionate about consciousness.

What does that word actually mean to you? Hmm. Yeah, it's hard to like specific, specify the actual, you know, the word. word consciousness because it just encompasses so many things but when I think about like the broader concept of spirituality and how I've been you know how I've been taught and kind of awakened by Eckhart Tolly in this way I think that consciousness is about finding your piece in a certain away, but also it's also about

people go through these different states that are very challenging, you know, and they, or whether it's drug drug induced, you know, like psychedelic trips, or if you're just like how I was, like with insomnia

and that was basically a drug trip for me. Yeah. These different states of consciousness, it's like people tend to label them, you know, if people are acting crazy, it's very hard to understand what's going through someone's mind. But I think I've seen so many people that you would think are crazy when they're going through it. And it's just they're going through this thing that then they come out the other side and they're back to the normal self.

So I just feel like that change of consciousness needs to be a little bit more normalized in our society. It isn't talked about enough about that mental health aspect. It's a great point. I know that everybody that listens to my podcast, I do a lot of psychedelics. And when I think about consciousness, I think about our relationship to the environment around us, be it space or the tree or this desk or this conversation. You know, it's interesting to get to hear different people's opinions of what it is because you're right. It's such a giant word. You throw it around all the time.

Everybody kind of has a different definition of what it is. yeah yeah i don't even really know what it is anymore but i mean i think it you like the more like spirituality textbook definition is the apart from the ego and the personality it's the awareness behind that's a great word that you feel the oneness with other people when you feel in nature the universe and it's that it's being completely present where you're able to separate yourself and whatever, like the ego, the longings, the wants, the emotions, and you're able to tap into something that's way bigger and way deeper than all that. When you read Eckertoli, was it, do you remember, was it the power of now?

Was that? I started actually with with New Earth. That was the first book I read, and then I read Power of Now after. So, yeah, I've read pretty much all of this stuff and all of his YouTube videos. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Can you point to something specific that, like,

when you read it was was kind of called out to you was there still something i'm sure there's many things that when you look back at what you've learned from reading him or checking out his lectures like is there something that sticks with you to this day that like you kind of turn to like oh yeah i remember what he said about the pain body yeah yeah i think for me i think the um is through the open door audio books audio tape of just like him giving a talk at a seminar that was a person time I heard him and I remember I was 15 and driving to Tahoe and I heard his words and he said you know he said something like not not waiting for anything to happen not wanting not expecting and then he and he talked more about the idea that people have this perfect ending of

will bring them salvation they think about the perfect partner the perfect job the life, the money, and there's this angle of salvation that translates into future thinking. And it just translates into this present is not enough for me. Somewhere in the future has what I'm looking for. And this constant lack is searching for that. And then when he starts going even deeper and saying that that future, it just doesn't exist. Like what you have here is a present moment and that that future will never come. Of course, the future will come literally, but that future, that mental projection of the future will never come.

It'll never be the way how you're thinking. And you've had so many experiences where you get what you think would make you happy, and then it doesn't. And just hearing him say those words in that way, it just opened up my mind to like, oh, wow, the present moment. And I'm still working on bringing myself there now back to that present moment, back to not wanting more, more money, the girl, you know. all that. Man. That, that, I'm super jealous that you learned that at 15.

I'm super stoked, but I'm also like, damn, why couldn't I have learned that at 50? All right. Do you think that that's something that, like, your generation is more aware of than, say, my generation or even the older generation?

Hmm. I would say some of them are. I would say some of them are. are not. I'd say it's very individual in a personal journey because you have these things like social media

and AI and porn and all these crazy distractions that are like almost kind of numbing us out and so that we're going below that baseline because Eckhart talks about it in this way of like you have like your baseline thought and you kind of want to transcend thought but then there's if you can't trans,

transcend thought a lot of people, they go to alcohol, porn, drugs, like all this, like, constant stimulation to kind of numb you out. And I would say a lot of our generation does do that, but I think that also can be like the portal, the way being, like suppressing all that for so long, and then you can have this kind of trampoline effect where you're going to like bounce up into into like this this higher state of consciousness there there's this great scene uh from the popular show white lotus i don't know if you're familiar with it but it's like uh this this place this this high-end resort in hawaii that all these super rich people are going to right and and this scene really stuck with me because there is this younger younger boy um i forget his name right now

but he was like the younger sister of like sinny sweeney uh her character and he was he was like super into his phone and like technology and all that and uh his his sister and like her friend were like you got to sleep on the beach tonight like we don't want you in here or something something like that happened so he's out he's out on the beach and he's like addicted to uh to porn and all that and he's like he's on the beach like about like on this beautiful most beautiful beach ever and he's he's watching porn and and then all of a sudden he he He just like he stops. And then he he drops his phone and he drops his phone in the water.

And then it water washes it away. And then he just looks up like into this sky and this beautiful sunset in this ocean. And then he just has this moment of like, wow, you know. And it's like that scene. It really perfectly like describes our generation sometimes that we can get really lost into these other vices and such. And like really trying to numb us out. But then that can kind of like make way you can always come back to to this higher, this nature, this expanded consciousness. And so yeah.

Yeah. That's well said. And it's it's amazing once you see the illusion fade. Like all this shit trying to get your attention. And all you got to do is look up, look up at the night sky. Go outside and sit by the, sit in the forest, you know. Yeah. check out the garden like there's it's unparalleled beauty if you know what you're looking at

if you just take the time to take it all in it's unparalleled man there's no distraction it's better than that get back to the sunlight i mean as i've been so much it's like getting sun this summer and you know yeah everybody talks about that all the all the health podcasts you know just like just getting sun like taking your shirt off like getting sun back it's it's so huge it's living the way that we used to live, you know. Yeah, that's well said. Let me see. You mentioned that you've learned a lot about mania and psychosis.

We spoke a little bit about it. What do you think people fundamentally misunderstand about those experiences? That's a really good question. Yeah, I think the fundamental misunderstanding is that when they see someone that's manic or in psychosis, they associate that experience of them with who they actually are. Like you see it so many times, you're like, oh, that guy's crazy. Like, oh, that guy went crazy. And me and someone really close to me went through, both went through mania and psychosis.

And I'm sure plenty of people, when we're in that state, totally labeled us as like, kind of like just crazy or like out of it or just like gone. But what is pretty remarkable is that both me and that person, we came back from that state, like for the first however many years of our life, we were like totally like just like a normal person. And we went through that for a year, two, three years. And then we came out the other side. And now we've been good ever since. So it's like it's not like people think that, oh, once you get manic, you're now you're prone to mania.

like even if you maybe get better like oh but you know stay on the meds like don't do this like so many people say that it's like no like this is it's bigger than that there's a spiritual component to this there's a trauma aspect there's all this bigger stuff that if they're just a little bit had a little bit more compassion and open-mindedness about what people were going through that they would stop like labeling them so quickly yeah i think mania is underrated like it feels pretty awesome to be manic. Like, you know, what is it? I disagree. You disagree? I, give me your experience. Go ahead. I do think it's, it's awesome to feel manic. I do think that's the problem. But I also think that people have all different levels of mania because the people,

I think a lot of people have experienced mania, but a lot of people haven't experienced mania to its fullest extent. We're seeing what that looks like. So I think a lot of people, there's, 20 of times where they experience a little bit of mania in their life, but then they come back from that. Right. And so if you've ever experienced, like, a full manic break, like, I think I almost had one. The person that I'm referring to close to me definitely had one. It's very scary, and you don't really want to go down that road. But again, that's a certain type of person.

Not everyone even has the networking, like the DNA to, like, have a full mini break, I feel like. So I don't know. I have a lot of experience with me. psychosis in that way. But I know what you mean about like the getting things done mania. So I don't know. I almost mean like the unrealistic expectations of what is possible in your life. Like I've had, I wouldn't say that I am manic-depressive, but my father was.

And like I, he's got the paperwork to prove it. You know, he's they, they, he's spent some time getting some help. But I remember like. The way, like almost like the guy could bend reality. Like, he'd be like, dude, we're going to a ribbon-cutting ceremony in Gibraltar next week. It's going to be amazing. I met with my new business partner, Ben Kwan. He's like a billionaire from the Thailand.

And just like this radical, elaborate, fantastic stories that was like, dude, I'm packing my bag. It's going to be amazing, you know? Yeah. And there's, with that comes, like, the depression of, like, the day comes. and like, oh man, just laid out on the couch, but not even talking to anybody. You know, to see these radical swings of like,

dude, I can conquer the fucking world. Watch this. And you just pull so many people. It's like it, the form of mania that I saw had its own gravity. Like it would pull people in in a way where some people would be like, dude, this guy's out of his mind. Other people would be like,

this is the most charismatic person I've ever seen in my life and I want to be around them more. You know, and I, like on some level, you know, I don't think I share that particular form of mania. But because I grew up in it and I saw it, I'm prone to having these outbreaks of radical ideas of impossibility. In fact, I have been told by many people that I'm delusional. You know, like, I'm going to do this. If you're fucking, dude, there's no way that will ever happen. But I'll sit with that and I'll be like, these people are all wrong.

Watch. Watch this. And I may not get exactly what I was going for, but it's because of that mania. It's because of that delusional understanding of what is possible that I can even get close to some of these things. You know, and it's, that's the aspect. I should clarify, I don't think the manic depressive disorder or people that are maybe like Charles Manson or people that have mania in that aspect is something to be desired. But the context I'm talking about is the feeling of being invincible for long periods of time and believing things with all of your heart that you can accomplish. Like that is the mania to me that is intoxicating and contagious. And I think that a lot of the times you'll see it with spirituality. Like how many gurus have we read about? How many people like if you look at Jim Jones or some of these spiritual gurus that were clearly,

manic. And you know, you could probably say that about lots of profits or even business leaders today that are going through this radical mania. And so I just wanted to clarify it. But everybody out there like, wait a minute, George, you're talking about this sickness. So I'm going to clarify that for people. But yeah, I wish more people could experience the bliss that those unrealistic beliefs in what is possible in yourself can lead to. Not necessarily consequences. So there, I think I've clarified it. That's, that was so good. And yeah, I definitely think that there's a bigger spiritual component to, too, to mania in general. And like, yeah, we're probably both like very, like, high energy people. Totally. And so high energy people are

more prone to that. But there's a more spiritual nuance where it's like, even though I am a little bit afraid of mania and I know what it can tell. It's like I can talk about mania for hours. It's the most interesting subject to the planet because I feel like a lot of these people that go through, have to go through something pretty intense. It's like you actually

kind of need to experience that. So even though I'm very like you know, want to like know the signs and help people dealing with that it's also like I know that a lot of people they kind of have to experience that mania and however extreme

form that that goes through. And yeah, and you were talking about that self-belief and self-delusion. And like, I don't think that that's bad at all. So I think that there is definitely a certain high, high energy and high confidence and motivation that you can take from this

without going to that crazy place again that, you know, is like super manic. But yeah, I feel like there's a lot of the, there's a lot of, you know, exploring of different realms of consciousness, sometimes purposely, sometimes, accidentally,

pretty much almost all non-drug related, which has been pretty amazing. But yeah. Yeah, I've had some radical experiences with psychedelics where there's times where, first time I'm going to say that. I'm not a doctor. I'm not condoning anybody do this, but I'll speak about my own experience where I've taken really high doses of like psilocybin primarily.

And I remember one time in Hawaii where I took like a pretty big dose, like 11 grams. And I remember at the height of this fucking psychedelic wonderland, like realizing, I'm sitting in my library. It's like three in the morning. And I'm looking around at like 300 books. And I'm like, dude, how did I write all these books? How the fuck did I do that? And it comes to me like, well, it's because you're God. You are God, George.

Of course you wrote all these books. You've done everything that you have heard or seen. That's you. You are all these people you're thinking of. Every character in history, that's you. And I remember, like, just this overwhelming feeling of connection and the solid belief beyond any doubt that I was everyone, I was every author.

And at that moment, Logan, I walked outside my back patio door. And I was getting ready to walk out. I went through the back fence. And I'm like, dude, I need to tell everybody that I'm God. This is a great idea. I should be probably knocking on doors and telling people this. Like, this is very, very important. People should know this.

And like, as I'm walking down the cul-de-sac at like 327 in the morning and it's pitch dark, something comes over me and like, wait. it's probably a bad idea. And I must have sat out there for like 30 minutes debating whether I should tell people and knock on my neighbor's door and tell him I'm God. You know, like that's a form of mania of like, okay, wait a minute.

And as I look back on that, as funny as it is to tell it, and I, like, I still love that feeling. I still remember the argument I was having beside myself out in the middle of the street. And it was so beautiful. But at the same time, it was so dangerous. If I would look the house five minutes earlier, I probably would have knocked on people's doors,

and then the cops probably would have shown up. And then I would have had to explain all of this to someone like, no, you don't get it. Like, I thought I was God because there's a lot of, you know, I'm God, right? You know, that's how you get locked up, man. Like, you don't escape that. You know what I mean? So, like, people need to be careful when you have these out-of-body experiences. Then it comes to mind, there's people that don't even need psychedelics.

So they don't even need that to slip into that God-conscious. It's not unheard of. If you read the accounts of people in the DSM or you like me, you like to zook out on people that are labeled crazy, and you listen to their experience. I'm like, well, listen, the reason I'm doing this is because I'm Jesus. Like I can fundamentally empathize with that person because I've been through that sort of psychotic break. We're like, oh, yeah, I get it. That's what he thinks. Of course he would do that.

But it's interesting to not only know those states, but to have experienced them. Like that's a whole other world out there, man. We got any thoughts on that? Yeah, man. I feel like I need a notepad while you're talking just to keep down my thoughts. That's the next time. Now I know for my next podcast. Right here, man.

Yeah. But I feel like, let me get a paper. Yeah. It's because it's easier for me to listen to you while I don't have to try to think about what I'm going to say next, you know? Do you write it down? I'm going to use the bathroom. I'll be right back, man. Okay, okay.

Sounds good. You can skip ahead. You know how to do a solo. a podcast yet. So get on my modern wisdom, Chris Williamson. All right. I'm back. I'm back.

I'm right. Yeah, no, I didn't write down too much. I just, um, I, your thoughts on that, I, I was thinking about how,

like, the, um, how you were talking, you know, that conversation you were having with yourself at three in the morning. Yeah.

And I, in my head, I was reflecting back on moments that I've had, like, late out of night when it's like, your mind feels like it's moving. a million miles per hour, you're in this expanded state of consciousness. And the thought that comes to mind is that mania kind of ungrounds you in a way.

It's kind of like the opposite of grounding. Like it's taking you on this ride, which can be good. That energy in itself can actually kind of be used as a weapon, as something that's really good that can help you with motivation as long as you keep yourself ground. it. So it's this constant balance. And I feel like if we take the word mania away from it because, you know, mania has all these other connotations.

Right. Well said. If we just think about it as this ungrounding energy and the grounding energy that needs to kind of balance itself out. And you can kind of go in this kind of, it's taken you, taking you. And then as long as you, you know, can ground yourself back out. I don't know. I mean, people say grounding is always better.

but there's definitely the ideas that you have can be really important but yeah as far as as far as mania I just I just know how crazy it is like when when me and that other person I was talking about when we were like both experiencing like the manic thoughts it's crazy how it's just like all your thoughts are almost about like ungrounding yourself like the person that's close to me he he told me that at the height of his mania, he was in his room. And all, he thought that him and like all his belongings in his room was about to be like a rocket ship that was about to take off into space. And when I hear him and tell that story, I just think about, wow, that that is like the height of mania.

Like that's exactly like what the manic thoughts are like trying to do with you. They're like taking you over in these subtle ways, but they're trying to like literally get you to like shoot out of the earth, you know, like far in the universe. and it's like that in the more mental health concept you kind of have to to slow that down and to ground and breathe because that can be really scary but as far as a spiritual sense if you do balance that energy in that other way you know it could be a very creative creative force too without a doubt you know in some ways I think it comes back to labels like you know if we label that as psychosis okay this person should probably be locked up if they're having a doubt you know and I think it comes back to labels like you know if we label that as psychosis this, okay, this person should probably be locked up.

They're having some radical ideas that could get themselves in trouble and hurt other people. But if we said that person was touched by God, they've been inspired by the creativity of the creator, whatever people's definition of God is. This person was in touch with the universe. That's a whole different idea. Like, you kind of want to be around someone that's been touched by the universe, but someone that's crazy, you definitely want any part of that. You know, there's a, I think it was Alan Watts who said that in the Western world,

if you wake up and you go tell everyone that you're God, they'll lock you up. But in the Eastern tradition, if you go out and you tell everybody your God, they say, congratulations, you figured it out. Right. Let me ask you this. Why do you think we are so uncomfortable with?

Why do you think, not all of us, but a large part of society is really uncomfortable with altered states? Altered states. I think, like from my experience at alternative to the med center, you know, when when the kid came in, and I said kid, I mean, he was like 27, but he feels like a kid. He came in and he was in psychosis.

Like a lot of people were kind of outcasting him in that way. And I kind of realized that it was because a lot of them had gone to this place where they've been able to come back from. But I feel like they were kind of skisking. of him because they they almost felt like that was them if they just let their mind go a little farther. You know? So in this more mental health sense, we were all in Alternative Med Center. It's a spiritual place.

We'd all gone through like probably like way crazier shit than the average person. So in that context, it's like I was with these people and they, it almost was like this fear of like going that far out, right? But then it's like once you have this person that is. that far out is like that that's not how you help them you don't kind of outcast them and make fun of them like you just have to treat compassion because that could have been you if you if you're in a little too far out you know whatever if it was drugs like insomnia right they didn't have the right support system so i think there's different senses on why people are uncomfortable with it but i feel like

that's the more um spiritual and mental health people would be more uncomfortable with that state of consciousness. And then as far as as like the larger like societal form, I just think that that's just more about, you know, labels and thinking people are crazy and just like uncomfortable

with the unknown or anything that like feels like weird or not normal. Yeah. I think there's got to be a line somewhere. Like maybe it's violence or radical self-harm. You know, because there's, are, as we talk about our own experiences with altered states and mania or being drug-induced

or non-drug-induced, like everybody listening and probably both of us know people or have seen people or maybe have a family member that has crossed that line and maybe hurt other people in a way that was, you know, maybe not intentional or maybe intentional or hurt themselves or even committed suicide on some level. I think that that is one reason why when we talk about altered states, you know, we don't know what other people are going through. Like, maybe they know someone that ended their own life or someone that, you know, took the lives of someone else. Like, there's, there's real reasons to be skeptical of altered states and playing with consciousness on that level, man. What are your thoughts? Oh, yeah, definitely there is those extreme circumstances

where once you get to that level of, like, hurting yourself or hurting other people, It definitely needs to be engaged with, like the outside, however you need to, you know, call the cops, need to just get someone into that center, to that level one facility, even if they need it. Like, I know it's really hard to get out of it. And ideally, you wouldn't, you want to be into that treatment center, but you still can get out of it, and it's better than the former, you know, better than the bad stuff happening. But I feel like if you, if we're not talking about getting to that point, because obviously we know that point. I think another thing from alternative to med center, if we're talking about psychosis and

mania, I had this experience that really like kind of enlightened me to the way that it works. And I was dealing kind of with a little bit of it myself, but the kid that came in, he was like, he was going by light because he was like so far out there. He's like, my name is light. His real name is Daniel. But we were at the treatment center and we were in, um the like the lounge or oh sorry the spa kind of because we after the sauna we were like do like all this like crazy like body detox with fast and all this amazing stuff but we're sitting next to each other and i hadn't slept for a few days so i was like super like i'm a natural empath so if i'm if i'm like kind of out of it or like in a spot where i'm like in a weird place i can go like super far

into other people and other energies. And because I'm, that's how I, I almost like the natural feeling of how I felt safe when I was a kid. So I like, I naturally want to go into someone else's frame. So anyway, I'm sitting here and,

and light is right next to me here. And I'm like, I feel like this like scared, dissociated kid because I'm like three days no sleep. And I feel like my brain is gone. So I'm like trying to go into his frame. Like I'm trying to go, which you shouldn't try to go into psychosis kid friend because that's some crazy shit.

But I, I'm going into his frame and and I'm looking at what is happening in his body and it's all of a sudden like I'm there like I can see what's happening and like what I literally see is that his brain and like the soul and the person in his body it looks like it's literally battling something to get back into his body to get back into his body to get back into earth. It's like he's trapped in a spot and like the mania and the psychosis whenever kind of took him over whatever maybe even entities if you believe in that are in him. it's like the person I can see the the person that was there that's trying to get back in and I had this like crazy experience on three nights and no sleep and that and I I always remember that because I'm like I'm like yeah like that's that's what extreme psychosis and mania is it's like the person kind of gets gets trapped out and I would you know and that's why I really would like love to like help people try to try to get back you know because I always think that everyone

Everyone can get back. And I know some people probably even never get back, but everyone's on their own journey. So anyway, that's kind of an experience I had with seeing that battle between the soul and the person and whatever's kind of got them at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I believe that you can extend your awareness into two other people. into inanimate objects.

If you think about a blind person, they use a cane to extend their awareness into the tip of that cane and feel the world around them. They're using a medium. They're using a stick. But anybody could do that right now. You could take your pen and be like,

where is my, oh, there's my computer. Where's my mic? Okay, there's my mic. You know, it's just because I'm using a pen, like do you really need a pen? Like, if you were really good, if you're really talented, like yourself or other people,

and you have a natural ability, maybe we all have it, but we're not using it. But why can't you extend? your awareness into other things. Like it seems like that is and maybe how we're supposed to be. Like you should be able to extend your awareness. Not only into other people, but the total environment around you and pick up that information. It seems plausible to me. It seems natural to me. Yeah. I definitely think to an extent, I feel like with empaths, it's definitely good to stay in

your frame. I've been doing a lot of, you know, like grounding, like stay in your frame, like into your body work. But I definitely think that that power. of going into other things can almost be like a superpower, you know? I mean, I've had experiences where it feels like, like, when I was 16, that spiritual awakening. Like, I was, like, in this person's, like, brain that I was really close to. Like, I was like, I feel her thoughts. And I was like, whoa, that's too far. But, uh, I definitely, I definitely think there's, there's a way that that can be harnessed for a healer sense.

But then you, you first have to really come back to, like, the grounding and being in your frame first before you're able to kind of use that tool. I think that this is exactly why the world is afraid of charismatic leaders. Because charismatic leaders are usually people that are incredibly empathic. And they can extend themselves into other people's ideas and thoughts and motives and intentions. And it's a slippery slope. At what point in time do you see this gift as a tool to change people? in a way that you have no business changing them. You know what I mean by that?

Like if you are really empathic and you have this gift to thoroughly understand exactly or close to exactly what someone's going through and you think you're changing them for the better, how do you know, you're changing for the worst? And I think that that's where we see these charismatic leaders go off a ledge. Like they call it like the guru syndrome, right? Like when a person is leading a group of people and they believe in them as a leader, pretty soon that leader takes on the role of a guru and they believe that this thing that they have, they should be used in this way.

You know, I'll take it back to Jonestown or even some of these new psychedelic cults that you see on the forefront. These people believe, and quite possibly so that they have this divine gift, which they may have. But, you know, is that something a human should even be able to wield? You know what I mean? By like, where is the road between using these powers and these skills for good versus is, you know, when does it become the good of the individual versus the good of the group? Does that kind of make sense? You see where I'm going with that?

Yeah, yeah. No, I kind of see where you're going with the, yeah, with the whole using it for good. Definitely is an intense energy and a power that you can definitely have to harness, you know. Right. Yeah, I think that if, I don't know, I don't really have experience with like being able to influence like other people that much with it. I mean, I don't know. That's hard because, yeah, I get your point. If you think about the charismatic leaders who have done bad things, you know, with with their power. Yeah, I don't know how I never thought of it that way and how much

like, oh, they're empathetic and kind of using that skill. So yeah, that's, I never thought of it that way. Yeah, good. That means you're an awesome person. What about climbing? Oh, yeah. How long you've been climbing, man? Dude, so I started climbing as a kid at Vertex. And I climbed there for three years. All right. As a kid, we went to Bishop and Joshua Tree outdoors. And it was awesome. Like, I don't know. I feel like climbing is so, so primitive. And, yeah. And there, And the other night, I was back from climbing after a good session doing like this crazy overhang campus route that I guess was a V5. We were like, this has to be at least B6.

But we were doing that session. And I come back and I'm in my bed and I'm just like, wow, like my body feels good. Like weightlifting, like you can't feel this. Like my tendon, like everything is so strong. But as far as I started getting back into climbing in. in 2024. I met my ex-girlfriend was into it, and I'm so glad she was because that made me fall back in love with them.

And so I've been climbing back for a couple of years now, and I'll do it for the rest of my life. It's the greatest sport ever. Man, I'm sort of new to it. My daughter and I joined a gym maybe six, eight weeks ago. Hey, man, it is so addicting in a way that, like, I've never really felt before. It's physically challenged as it is, it's as physically challenging as it is mentally challenging. I was yesterday, I was at Vertex, and they let me, I'm trying to learn how to lead climb.

And for those that don't know, like, you're the person that takes the rope up, it puts it into the carabiners. And I got way up on this overhang and like, I'm not good at clipping that rope in on like carabiner number six. You know, and I'm up on this thing and it's slightly overhanging. And I'm like, ah, I got it. I got it, but I couldn't, I couldn't get the damn rope in the carabiner. I tried like four times. And I'm like, oh, maybe I should use my thumbs and my fingers.

And as soon as I said that, like I just lost my grit, man. And I fell down like two carabiners, you know. It was like my first time doing that. And I'm like, oh. And then, of course, Ben catches me. And I'm like, dude, just this moment of exhilaration and like replaying in my mind. Like, oh, I had it right there. And then like, I look where I am on the wall.

And then like, I look down. And I'm like, dude, it's so crazy. It's such a radical experience of being up and climbing. It's challenging yourself in a way. Everybody listening out there, if you haven't tried it and you're someone that likes to challenge themselves, I would say find the local climbing gym and learn how to do it and then get out of nature and start trying.

Primitive is such a good word for it, man. Yeah, man. And everything you're describing in that sequence is like how amazing but also frustrating climbing can be, right? Because you're trying this, route and whether you're outside outside is different but when you when you're in the gym or outside you're trying a boulder route a top row route over and over again and it's like you have this like little moment like where you're either going to get it or are you going to fall and right

and if you fall in that moment you might not get back to that moment for you know another 10 minutes hour days like because there's so much rest involved in like like half of climbing especially if you're doing overhang it's just like one little go and like you know and like That's like 15 seconds and then you're resting for 10 minutes. And you're like, I mean, that's what you have to do. Yep. So, yeah, it's amazing. It's frustrating.

It's a puzzle. And then you get to take it outdoors and be in the sun. And yeah, it's just like, I mean, yeah, what incredible sport that we're into. What is climbing taught you about the difference between fear and danger? That's such a good one because I feel, yeah, yeah, that's a great question. Um, yeah, because fear is, is something that I work, I work to overcome on the wall, right? Okay. Because I've always been a genuinely cautious kid.

And that's what I think what appeal to climbing is. I was like, I was getting over that, that fear of like falling in, in a certain way, right? If you're doing like a heel hook and you feel like a little weird on the route, there's, there's times where you're like, oh, I'm genuinely, I'm generally not in a good position. now. If I fall right now, I'm going to land on my back. I'm not going to take that risk. That's dangerous. But then there's also moments where you just have to, you're in a spot where if you fall, you're going to be fine. Like it might be a little bit scary, but you're going to, I got to overcome it in my mind. And that's also been a big journey for me in getting back into my body because I've always had this kind of like, I had a lot of like injuries. And my family on my mom's side has always been like hypochondriac. like afraid of any like sensation or anything wrong like oh a little pull in my leg means the end of the world so again climbing is like teaching me to be okay with all these different movements in my body and it's like very empowering to being like oh yeah I can do that like I can't I'm still

getting all all that motion you know I do yeah what what does your body know that your mind doesn't know as far as climbing yeah Are you taking it wherever you want to, man? But that's the next question, because you're talking about your body and your mind. I'm like, oh, I wonder what he thinks. I mean, your body definitely, you know, anyone that spiritual knows that your body has the internal wisdom, right? Yeah. I talk about Eckhart feeling your inner body, feeling that wisdom of, like, getting out of your head.

That's a big one for me, getting out of my head, getting into my body. And then when you're actually in your body, you're not thinking. about oh is this gonna tweak myself or injure myself that's specific for me you're more just like doing you know these movements and whether it's like yeah play volleyball I climb the primitive movements yeah I mean it's it's all about getting into your body for the most work getting your energy your body getting your frame feeling the inner body getting the sunlight it's definitely your body knows a lot that you can't even really describe because it's like just I don't know.

The brain is kind of trying to describe it. You can speak from a different spot, but yeah, that's kind of the gist of what I got on that one. I love it. Yeah. I was up on, at Vertex, they have this 510D that I've been working on for like three weeks. And I get to this corner and like the next hold is like a, it's almost like a sloper. But it's got a little knobbies on it. But you can't grip it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And like I'm up on this wall and I'm in this funky position in my mind's like, there's nowhere to go. And my body is like just reach over there. Like I just reach out and grab it. And I'm like, my mind's like, dude, you can't grab that. There's nothing hold on to. My body's like, just put your arm up there and lean over. Like it's, it's almost innate in some ways. And I'm like, my mind is just desperately trying to override my body. Like, dude, don't do that. What are you? Crazy. Don't do that. But I reach up and sure enough, oh, it's almost like your body's

guiding you with that intentional wisdom of like, dude, I got this. Tell that guy upstairs to shut up. I got this. You know what I mean? And like, it's interesting. So that's where I take it as like, oh, my body knows. My body knows. Not all the time. There's times I fall, but like my body seems to know the move to make.

You know, maybe that's listening to your heart or however people want to spend that. But I think climbing is teaching me that aspect of it. Like, listen to your body. Like, it knows. And sometimes you've got to override the mental hardware or that conditioning that's been said and said in you. for 10, 20, 30, maybe 50 years in my case. Like, let your body feel the way.

I think it's good information out there. But, yeah. That's so true. Like when I wasn't thinking about it in that way that you just brought it up. But now that I am thinking about it, that's so accurate. There's times when I'm on the wall that I'm moving in the way. It's like, wait, I don't know how to move like that.

Like there's sometimes you, you know, move very smooth, but there's sometimes you move so smooth and you're in such a flow where, like, that doesn't feel like me like that feels like like my body is just doing this movement that it feels just it feels so right and it's yeah it's not it's different than like what your mind is doing yeah exactly that's that's a good way of putting it listening to your body it's so graceful too like if you watch someone who's been climbing for a long time it almost reminds me of like a chameleon you know how like they're like they're kind of smooth and they just reach out boom they just change man it's it's it's almost

like the way someone is born as a good dancer or that they have rhythm so too is a good climber have the ability to move gracefully up a wall like they're walking on an escalator you know it's just like so beautiful and like and then you try to do it like do i can't hold on to this thing i was uh i was comparing climbing into dancing just the other day because i was at the end of my session and i was watching uh this guy kai it was like not even close to the best than gym but he's really good and he's probably climbing this b7 over hang and he was and he did it in such a way that was so fluid and when you watch when you watch the best do it there's no panic in their body you know none it's like they even though they're doing

these crazy moves where they're holding on by one arm and doing heel looks it's like you don't see the panic and it and it's like even if it's hard it's like that's what you're kind of going to achieve is that flow stays that dance yeah and so yeah watching the best climbers is definitely really it's a really good thing to do if you are a climber. And yeah, I just, I love the climbing community. Have you, have you seen any of Alex Honnold? I don't advise free soloing at all, but he's like the face of the sports. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't seen him, but I will definitely check him out.

I've just been zooking out on me and my daughter and a couple people with the gym out there. Nice. What about, like, have you gone out? Like, what are some of your? We went to Goat Rock. That was my first time being on a rope outside out there. It was pretty awesome. But maybe you could tell me a story about going out into nature and doing some climbing out there.

Yeah. I've been, since I've been back into it, I've gone to Goat Rock. Few times my coworkers, it's a good thing about working on a zip-line place is. Yeah. Yeah. I went really into like this outdoors and climbing. I've also been down to Stinson Beach, and they got some. and great boulders by on the sand.

So definitely recommend that. You definitely want a few crash pads and want people that know what they're doing with spotting because I had a couple, well, I'm just like one fall where I was like, oh, I should have an extra crash pad there. But yeah, that's a great time. As far as a story, I don't advise bouldering alone, but my friend kind of dished on me last minute, like a few, like six months ago or however long.

and I was going, or it was sugar loaf in Santa Rosa, and I was checking those boulders out for the first time. And I was just going out there alone. Like I wasn't going to climb anything too hard. I had one crash pad. I was just going to climb the easiest stuff, which turned out to be like basically nothing. I was like, all this is, all this is way too scary to do alone.

I barely got off the ground on almost all of them. But I would say then there was a time where I was like going to this bowl, older because I have you have the little kaya app and it's kind of showing you how to get there but it's not like a GPS you know you have to like actually read just instructions and my generation isn't good at that like we're in the 90s or something so I'm trying to read this instruction and I kind of figure out what this boulder is it's like way off the path and so I'm walking like where it's kind of telling me to take and I'm walking like up this hill I have a crash pad on my back I'm like fighting fighting all this brush I'm going for an hour just and

probably an hour just like up this hill, maybe not that one, maybe 40 minutes. And I'm just, I'm just fighting my way through this, like, thick brush. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And I finally get to the spot where I think it is. And I look, and it's on the other side of the creek. So I have gone up the wrong way. And there's a big canyon below. So there's no way I can just go over.

And I am like, I go all the way back down. And I'm like, do I want to go back up? And I'm like, no. But I mean, it was such a good, it's such a good. metaphor for like climbing too because it's like you know you try you go this whole route you're like doing this thing going this place that you think is the right way to go even with climbing in the routes and then all of a sudden you realize like that was totally not the right way to climb it and that was like all for nothing you know but it you know it kind of showed you the right way to go

in a way so yeah man that's a great metaphor for life you know you think you're on the right path and you're on the right track just on the wrong train right right man man let me shift it over how you doing on time man you're all right on time oh yeah i'm fine yeah however long i want to think i'm loving it so yeah dude me too super awesome i'm sure there's some other topics too yeah so here's one that i was when i was talking to some friends and talking about generations one of the questions that came up is what do you think my generation and the older generations don't understand about yours hmm

generational questions so your generation and older generations yeah sorry you're gen X or millennial I'm Gen X okay Gen X okay what do they not understand

I feel like I feel like there's I'm kind of not super like a line Like the honest question answer is like I'm not super like aligned with my generation in that way. Like there is ways where I am. Like I've been, you know, like obviously addicted to like scrolling and all that stuff. Totally.

And even the older generations kind of are doing like I find like my dad like scrolling and like he talks to AI all that sign now. So there's that. But as far as like our generation I think is. rightly so struggling and I think a lot of people see that and I'm not sure if they know it or not

but from an outside it's like people are I don't think we're as good as talking to each other as past generations were and I think you know the rise of social media and dating apps and all this stuff that

everyone always talks about And as cliche as it is, it's definitely the reason, like, this mass, this screen, screen output, the input, you know, you're just, like, constantly suffocated by all this stuff. And I guess that is, like, different because I guess, like, even though maybe they do know about it, it's like, the older generation probably doesn't know how it feels to, like, be suffocated by it in that way. Because younger people, like, I, I de-acted. do it, Instagram, and I try my best to, like, not scroll at all anymore. But the average, like, person in my generation is still, like, scrolling Instagram,

TikTok. It's, like, every second of their time is, every second of their downtime, you know, is kind is spent being occupied, like, their attention occupied by this insanely addictive algorithm. And from my experience, like, being in there, like, when I was, after 18C, like, when I was in rehab, like, my screen time was. There was times where it was like 11 hours and even just like being like a regular teenager. Like on the weekends, you like spend your day for like five hours like laying in bed like scrolling and like, oh God, I got to get up. And like that feeling of being like having that many people's like different thoughts and like opinions in your mind because like the real is that you're getting this anywhere from like motivational to like all these different thoughts.

And then when you when you get into like the self development journey, there's like people are telling you thousands of different things. And it's like, that is like not what a normal person is, is supposed to have in their head. It's just like seeing like thousands and thousands of people's like thoughts and opinions and all having all this advice. And it's like, we're designed to just like be in tribes and you just have your 50 people. But now you're just like overwhelmed by all this energy and suffocation of media. And it's just, I feel like it just confuses the younger generation. You know, like they're just kind of like lost in a certain. way they're like paralyzes paralysis of choice and information.

Is there, do you think there's any resentment for the older generations building this without thinking about the consequences of it? No, I don't think that, I don't think there's resentment. I mean, there's no resentment for me. I don't know about anyone else, but like I, right. It's just, that's just, it's just the path, like the universe's path is where you're going because there's no one, there's no one to blame. It's just the development of technology.

like there's no I don't know I just think that you gotta believe that we are on the right path as humanity because I feel like if you take the darker route

it's just I don't know I just don't want I don't like to be pessimistic I don't like to look at the glass half of it totally I like to think that it's all gonna it's all gonna work out and we're gonna rise above it

and we're gonna all awaken like Eckhart talks about planetary shift of consciousness and awakening Is there anything that yourself or maybe people, not that you are the ambassador for everybody your age or anything, but are there, from your perspective, are there norms that you see your generation rejecting the older generation is embraced? She was watching this good video on our generation the other day from this guy. I don't know his name is a man of a YouTuber. And he was talking about how, like, Gen Z is desperate for, like, anything meaningful.

So that's why you get these swings of, like, he was talking about how there's, like, the swings of, like, they're super liberal, but then they're super conservative now. And they're, like, they're, like, on either side. And there's, like, these extreme, like, polarities of, like, finding something. They're kind of like devoid of meaning in a way. So I don't know how the older generation was, but I feel like when you don't grow up with all this screens or more connected to nature, I mean, not saying that everyone was,

but I feel like you have more of a, they're probably more of a sense of that, of meaning. You know, that's probably what we're looking for. Yeah. Yeah. I know that when I think about screen time, I think about, I grew up in front of a television. Like, I watched so much TV as a kid.

And it's, I think the major distinction is the amount of different ideas at one time, like you pointed out earlier. It's like a fire hose of random ideas being shot at your face for like 10 hours straight. Where I would watch like happy days or, you know, growing pains or like, I would just watch these series of TV shows, like just constantly or watch movies. But I probably had lots of screen time. But at the same time, you know, cartoons would only come on on Saturday mornings. And we did a lot of stuff outside.

And I can't even imagine like what it's like to use a dating app. When I was kind of like AOL was just coming out when I was kind of coming of age. And we used to make fun of people like, dude, you found a girlfriend online? You're so sad, dude. That's so lame. You got an online girlfriend. man, too, what's wrong with you? You can't go out in the real world? But now I look at it and like, I work with lots of different young people and like,

this idea of like swipe left or right, man, like that's got to be a fucking weird thing or maybe it's normal because people grew up with it. But what, what, like, have you ever used a dating app, man? Like, what is it like to use that, man? Oh, man, I can tell you it's super weird. Okay, tell me, tell me. I don't know anything about it. Okay, yeah, this was actually what my, um, my English presentation was on last. Oh, nice. It was the addiction of,

it was a life, lust, and the pursuit of happiness. And I talked a lot about... That's an absolute. I talked a lot about the addiction of pornography and dating apps, especially in men. I can, so I think dating apps, they started with better intentions, right? And I think it was better, like, when dance were first coming around.

And I say that because, I'm a little biased because my stepmom and my dad met on match.com. So, okay, all right. Perfect, like soulmates. Like,

they're perfect for each other. And they met on match. com. Like, how amazing is that, right? Right. But for my experience with dating apps,

it's like the worst thing. Like, it's, I've been off dating apps for a while now. And like sometimes, like, we red download it because it's like that, that curiosity.

Yeah, totally. I do think that dating apps is, is almost like, especially, for like guys that like struggle with like addiction to like you know like lust and like sex yeah and girls and like kind of it's in that same realm of like pornography where you're just like searching like the hit and the dopamine and it almost i think it also like further as pornography does

it it further object it contributes to the objectification of women in men's minds right so like that's what I've noticed in myself, like, if I've had times where I'm addicted to that, those certain stuff, is like, I don't like how it changes that aspect of it along with all the other stuff, along with the dopamine, the searching, like, the constant swiping left and right. So I think, like, if you were talking to another person that they could have a more optimistic view of dating apps. Yeah. But for me personally, and like what I've struggled with because, like, you know, these sexual aspects have always been my vice. Like, not so much like alcohol, drugs and someone that's dealt with trauma and been through it.

Like, that's always been my subjective choice. I think it's, like, extremely, like, dangerous and addicting to get into that Tinder hookup culture. It's like, it really just takes a toll on your mental health. And it's like, I, I just with so much, like, I know when I'm going to meet the right person, it's not going to be online. It's going to be in the real world. And it's going to be organic. And it's going to be someone that's right for you in the right moment, hopefully.

So, yeah, that's, that's what I got on that. Like, I'm definitely anti-Dade. It's like, you're right. I think when it comes to intentions, like, if you can cast an honest version of yourself, dating apps or particular sites that allow you to meet people from around the world, allow you to cast a really wide net, which should ultimately allow you to, you know, meet someone that is much closer to who you are and what you are.

If we're to believe the idea of finding true love without your immediate environment. You know, but there's like this law, it seems like we're jumping the law of proximity. Like the law of proximity says the person you're going to date is probably someone you see every day. Or at least it used to be that. Like who you come into contact. Where do you work out? Like where do you go every day? Like that law of proximity used to be something that governed the people with whom you built a relationship with.

But in today's world, like it's, you know, we have all these connections around there. So yeah, dating apps are interesting to me. Like on some level, I could see the attractiveness and the beauty of it. But much like everything else, it's easy. to game it or to pretend to be a version of yourself, it's not really you. It's a fascinating, it's fascinating to me to think about on that aspect. Right. Like it's good in theory. Like the concept of it is good. But then when you have, when you, when you, you know, have it, couple it with these businesses that are just trying to make the most money they can and all

this other stuff. It's like, yeah, that's, that's not how dating is supposed to be. Right. Yeah. Right. And I saw this. Tell me about. Yeah. Go for it. Sorry.

Tell me about no worries, man. I feel like I cut you off right there. No, no. It wasn't important. I want to hear your next question. Tell me about life lust and the pursuit of happiness. Oh, yeah. What was this?

That was, that was in my final English presentation on my final paper that I did. I'm not at the JC anymore, but I was, I was trying college. I was like, I'll give it. I'll put my best foot forward. I'll put everything into it. And I'm just going to try it. And that actually gave me a big insight on like how like, fucked our generation is right now.

I mean, they were all younger than me because I'm going in at like 22, 23 and they're like freshmen. But I'm like damn like you can't even talk to each other anymore. But that was the JC. It's different other places. But as far as that paper goes, man,

I'm thinking back to it. I think it was. yeah it was me talking about battling through just any like addictions in general and like for me for me it was lust and it was it was kind of I definitely put a bit about my story

of going to ATMC and getting through and getting through rehab and getting to the other side of that and how getting to the other side of it like put so much like more meaning and value to my life and like how much more lucky I feel now. Having gone through that, I'm like surviving.

Yeah. But then I also put this other aspect of once I did make it to the other side, now there is the challenge of even though this life is really good and it's incredible and all these emotions and connections, there is still the vices you have to battle because there's still going to be those times that you feel empty, you feel lonely at nights, right? And so it's like anyone that goes through this trauma, and even if they make that the other side, usually people have a vice of choice. And so for me, it was, it was lust.

And in that paper, I talked a lot about that and trying to find, trying to find authentic connection, right? And not just to other people, but also to myself, to the universe. It's that, that authenticity of just, and like being and trying to, like, be okay, like, really, like, okay, like, I'm at, I'm at trying to be at peace right now and invalien those moments, you know. Yeah. Yeah. In a nutshell. I see like this Ariadney thread like kind of running through it. Like in the earlier part of the conversation we were talking about and you would mention that like you really want to help people that have gone through similar situations.

Yeah. And when we talk about climbing or we talk about like other things that you're doing as far as like the zip line and spending so much time in nature. Like looking forward, how do you tie those? things together. Like it sounds to me like one of your passions that you may be moving towards is like how, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but like you want to help a lot of other people. Like there's like if you were to project yourself five or ten years in the future, do you see yourself doing that passion? And if so, how like how? Yeah. I haven't, I haven't thought about the future in that way in a little bit like five to ten years. But as far as,

my plans and what I'm doing right now is that I'm really I'm definitely focused on like that like that inward journey and I feel like I am kind of on my my solo chapter you know of right and I do have to deal with like a lot of what's up for me before I'm ready for a relationship and such like that for right now because it's like every time I've had that in the past it's kind of and that's a whole other story um but like like Like what I'm interested right now and like what I'm pursuing is definitely, I would say it's still a line of my values of like listening to Eckhart and trying to be okay with like not like finding like not like gratifying. But I'm also in a place of expansion, you know, like I'm 23. And I'm like really like trying to like do a lot of stuff. Like I got this book. It's called Just bought it. The Matt this secret magic power of Manifax. best in money, I believe.

Okay. Yeah. Imagining, yeah. Something like that. It's a cool book. But yeah, I'm just kind of, I'm working, I'm working on that. And, like, because, like, through my whole life, I kind of, I feel like I've kind of had, like, like, money. I've had some, like, kind of, like, hard feeling stores that, you know, kind of.

Yeah. And now I'm finally, like, I feel like that's kind of, like, the missing piece for me is, like, being okay with, like, because, you know, everyone. kind of needs money kind of yeah i mean it would be nice to have and yeah of course and so i'm just kind of like doing a lot of that and still trying to keep it like grounded and spiritual and not like egoic and like chasing money but like just kind of trying to manifest abundance and um like i'm going to sedona i'm going back there i'm still at the zip lines i don't know i don't know how long I'll be there. But for right now, I'm there.

And I guess to answer your question, like five to ten years in the future, so I just had to get like that preface out of the way with what I'm doing now. I'm glad you did. I talk about what I'm like what I'm doing now before I think about that. But yeah, five to ten years, I feel like I can imagine myself. Yeah, I just with my own kind of like my own place somewhere, like out in the world. I mean, I would love to help people with mental health, like spiritual in a spiritual sense, whatever they're going for.

I don't have like a specific like image. I'm kind of keeping an open of whatever it calls me. And I'm just keeping that that abundance and seeing where my journey leads because like, you know, I'm just on this spiritual path like we all are. Yeah. Yeah. Which well said. Thank you.

Money's a tricky one, man. Yeah. Like I. It really is. is like depends on how there's so many ways to define it and you can define it as energy that you can define it as um a tool for behavior like just there's it's it's such a it's such a abstract idea that you can make this thing like i work at a i work at a casino and nothing has changed me more than like at the end of the day i'll stare at a table with like 15 million dollars in cash yeah

like just staring at this and and i'll look at the money sometimes and be like, man, this $100 bill represents someone's college fund. This $100 bill represents someone's hour of work or 15 minutes of work. And it's like, it's so abstract to see people's relationship to money. Like so at the end of the day, I'll see like $15 million. But at the beginning of the day, like I'll see people walk to an ATM and take out their last $4. It's like, dude, whoa.

You know, you see so much fascinating behavior. And not always in the best light, but it's a really radical space to study people's relationship to money. And like, it's a weird sensation to see a table full of money and you're just sorting through the kind of hundreds, 50s, let me stack this here, put this over there. And then to think about my own relationship with money and how I spend it and what it means to my family. And should I spend this on an experience or should I buy like a cool big ticket item?

And what's the difference between those two things? But my relationship with money, as many people has, has been radically changed. I'll share this with you. When I was a UPS driver for a long time. And I always thought that if I could just make enough money, I'd be happy. You know what? If I could just, dude, if I could buy this Lexus, you know what, I'd be cool. You know what?

If I could buy this house, man, then I would have everything. You know what? If I can have my house now and I get a rental property, I'd be bawling. I'd be so much better then. I'm like, I got all those things, man. If I get my daughter in this private school, you know, then I'd be happy. But it was, and I got to a point where I was so tired and so beaten up from chasing and realizing that all these things I bought with the money, I thought I owned, all those things

owned me, man. Now I got renters calling me like at 2 o'clock on a Tuesday when I'm balls deep at work telling me, hey, the garbage disposal is broken and water over the floor. What? Well, yeah, we need a plumber out here right now. And I'm like, hang on. My wife's on the other line. Like, dude, are you going to be at our kids practice?

Oh, shit. You know, like you realize this thing you're chasing called money, sort of an illusion. What you're really chasing is the best version of yourself. And I think what you said was really intelligent in the aspect of I'm keeping things open. I'm allowing myself to figure out what it is that I want. And there's no shame in having a long-term plan and an idea of what the best version of yourself is.

But there is real danger in committing to the idea of once I have enough money, I'll be happy. Yeah. So I would put that out there, man. I think what you said is brilliant in that aspect. And I think you'll find out, you know, spending money on experiences and listening to what truly pulls you or calls to you is the best way to make money. It's, yeah, you need it.

You need it to move in this world. But it's better to have peace of mind then. So I'm still in that caveat out there. I do, I do, uh, furthering on that subject. I do want your, your advice on, like, even more advice on like the fact because it's like, I'm, you know, I'm 23 and I've never known what it's like to have like a lot of money, you know, like I, like fair, like fair amount obviously because like I still, I still, I still, at home and like you know I'm I'm good with my money I got like a good savings but I feel like I

crave a lot of money but it's it's kind of for the ego the ego sense it's like I want like what you were saying like oh I want like my own place and it's like I'm watching these videos it's like oh dream bigger like oh I want it to be like nice like I want a nice car like all the stuff that money brings like like Mac Miller like how he talks it in his young his young raps and it's like I'm listening and listening to that. And I'm thinking, like, yeah, like, I want that. But then it's like, I'm also like, it's for like the ego reason of like I want it. I want it for like the, you know, like the girl's attention.

Like I'm not. Yeah. Because like, yeah, you want your own house. You know, for the girl. And it's like, I don't know. It's like how, what would be your advice on like balancing that, that craving with like reality? Because it's like there's certain. stuff where it's like, okay, if you want a relationship and like a family in the future, like,

yeah, you do want enough money for the house, but I don't want it to be like, I don't want it to be stressful. Like, I don't want to feel like, oh, I need to get this money, you know, because that's like the opposite of manifestation. So I don't, I don't know if you have any, any words of wisdom on that, but that's kind of what I've been doing with lately. First off, like, dude, you're 23. You're fucking crushing it. You are crushing it, brother. Like, I, I love talking to you. I love the way you carry yourself. I love the ideas that you're expressing. And I think that that is a phenomenal path right there.

But, you know, music, videos, people we look up to, we see this idea of money. Like, look how much money they have. But what we never hear about is like, look how fucked up their life is. I know so many people that, like, became millionaires, but they've been divorced twice. I know so many people that have the fucking nicest car, but that's all they have. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, dude, look at my, you want to check out my car?

I just put new rims on. Hey, wait, no, I put a new radio in them. Hey, come check out new speakers. This thing's dope. You know, it's like, okay, yeah, that dude, first off, congratulations. You're totally passionate about it. That's awesome. But who are you, man?

Yeah. What do you have? Is that, does that all you have, man? Tell me a fucking, dude, can you recite me a poem? You know, can you tell me, like, something that, changed your life. And like, I think we get caught up in the idea of what money can can bring to us. But we never talk about the what comes along with all that money. Like, if you look at someone who's really rich, take Mac Miller or any of these people that are telling you how awesome money is.

And like, how do those people know the people in their lives don't want anything from them but money? Like when you start having, when you reach escape velocity, Your relationship with the world changes. Like, that's what money buys you. Money buys you a different relationship with the world. And there's awesome parts about it. You know, I have made over a million dollars in my lifetime. I had a couple houses, and I lost almost all of it.

So I can tell you what it's like to make a few hundred thousand dollars a year and to have a little bit of money. And that's peanuts compared to some people that are really, really wealthy. but when I lost everything, it was this radical sensation of liberation on one side and dread on the other. Liberation in that I no longer have to fucking chase this thing that I hated. I hated where I was.

I hated the relationships I had with the people at my work. And it was just, it was draining me at a level that made me somewhat of a monster. But I knew I couldn't, I had to hold on. I had to get more. I need it more. of it. But I came to this realization like, dude, I've been doing this for 26 years. What are the chances that this feeling of dread that I have is going to leave? You know, and there were guys

that older than me. And I watched guys retire with close to a million dollars in the bank, 401k, house paid off, kids in college, retire at 55. They did everything right. And then two years later, they died. You know what I remember going to the guys, part like I remember going to his retirement party and being like fuck this guy did it man he did it he's got the he's got this time to live his life now and then two years you're at the funeral like dude this fucking guy died and that these sort of realization started to happen to me when I was probably around 40 and like it really did a number on me it really made me start thinking like wait you're going to work for 55 or 62 years and then live like why don't you live you live? Why don't you live?

now. Like my kid will be gone. Me and my wife will be old. What are we going to do then? Like sit in the house and watch TV. Like what about now? And then that comes up to you this idea of like, well, how much, you know, here's a fucking crazy question. How much money do you need to live forever? Dude, that's crazy. You know, you start thinking about these things. And like, well, how am I going to make it? And then for me, I look back on my life and I'm like, dude, I've always made it. It hasn't always been comfortable, but I've always made it. So if that's true, if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, then I should be all right. And so my advice when it comes to money is like, yeah, you need it. Money makes your life easier, but it doesn't, it makes some decisions

easier. You know, like you can't, you don't want to go through life with a toothache and not be able to go to the dentist. That's fucking horrible. But can you find some, that you're passionate about and make money at it too. It may not be, you might not be Macmiller. You may never be a millionaire. You may never, fucking probably no one's, no one I know is ever going to be a billionaire, myself included. Like it's not going to happen.

It's a nice dream. But it's like what you said earlier in the podcast. Like how far in the future do you want to live then? Like how about now? You know, can you, what if you opened up? What if you had the, the, the Logan 18. EMC, man. You're fucking pulling 100 Gs a year. Maybe you're making 50 Gs a year, but you're doing what you love. You meet some awesome girl. You guys live in Sedona, a small little two bedroom fucking go out and all. You know what I mean? Like that is what I think money means. Like money is an illusion in some ways. You need it. But my advice to someone who's younger is like, do find something you love to do and make that something you build around. Can you build your own thing? You know, can you build your own thing?

And it'll build its own gravity and people will be drawn towards you. You know, especially if you're helping people. I think that's what I would tell my younger version of myself is that it's a gamble. You could work for someone else forever. You could build your own thing. But don't get caught up in the ideas of what money people tell you money is. I hope that's helpful. No, that was great.

I definitely need, yeah, there's a lot of good wisdom in that. I think, yeah, in another sense, I feel like probably correlates with a lot of guys, but I think my, like, my female validation is so tied up with money too. Like, my craving for female validation and, you know, whatever. Right. That's based off of, you can be like my childhood or however, but that's what I'm struggling with. And I know that's kind of like an artificial thing that's trying to fill a more deeper wound, you know, like a service thing. And I know the real work from talking to my parents and everything is kind of going, going deeper into that.

But I guess it's like in society, it's, it is portrayed, you know, and it's like, of course, like all the rappers is like getting girls getting money. It's like that, that's what,

it's like this novelty lifestyle that's very attractive to the ego. So I don't know. I'm just, I'm just balancing that with like, but it's also like I have this deeper spiritual sense and I know that like, like what you said like yeah of course like having just a place in in sadona for a while making like a good enough living to live my own place like you meet a girlfriend and like you're good with each other like that's a great life you know like i'm i i'd also like don't need that much but then

there is that right there is that ego that's just like oh like how much anyway it's that it's that balance of thinking about that yeah man my uncle dave my uncle dave had some wisdom for me when I was like 17. I remember I was playing basketball in my cousin's house. I was talking to my uncle Dave and we're talking about dating and women. And he's like, George, I'll tell you some. Stay away from the tens. You don't want a nine, bro.

Find yourself a seven. That's where it's at, bro. Like, tens, dude. Like, and I'm not saying anything. Like, if any, all my female listeners, I love you out there. But it's in the best interest of a female to find a male that has enough resources for her to raise a family. You can't be mad at that.

Like a woman is looking for someone. Not saying all women, women, but like that's natural. It's called like, it's called hypergamy. Like they should be looking for someone that can take care of them in a way that they deserve to be taken care of. Like who doesn't want that? And I think especially for women like, like they, they want to be in an environment where they're safe.

And like, that's fucking awesome. And as a man, we. sometimes get it messed up where we think being a provider means having lots of money. But that's only like, that's only a small aspect of it. But we get, as men, we get caught up and if you have money, then you can get this. If you have money, you can have that. It's right to a degree. But I have learned that a provider is spending your time then, you know, how much of a husband can you be? What about, what kind of a dad do you want to be? You want to be the dad that works 15 hours a day and is never home? That's not a dad. That's a provider in some sense.

but what about a dad that can work, you know, seven or eight hours and still spend eight hours? What about a dad that does homework with his kid? What about a dad that takes his kid rock climbing? What about a dad that has a son and he can take him to the ATM? Has enough time to care. Like, ultimately, I think that when women reach a certain age, much like young, I think young people in general have this idea of what a relationship should be. But as you get older, you realize, like, man, I don't, I want to be with someone that values the same thing as me.

And while money's nice, I'd rather be with someone that can carry a conversation about something that I care about, that they care about. We have similar interests. We like to do these things together. And if money is the only thing that ties you together, then you're in a world of fucking problems, man. Because money comes and goes, like seasons in a year. Like sometimes you have it. Sometimes you don't. And if you start off with lots of money, you have a giant dating pool of women that like you, probably for the, probably because of that, because you have money.

And like, how do you know the difference? You know, you lose it and then maybe that person leaves. Like most relationships end because of money. So I guess I just go back to Uncle Dave, man. Stay away from the nines and tens, man. Find yourself a seven. Find yourself a good eight. Thanks, Uncle Dave.

Right. Yeah. And that goes into the hot, crazy scale. It's hot, man. Yeah. Right. Right. But anyway, that, yeah. They get what they deserve. That was good. The guys with money get what they deserve, man. And like, so do the girls that chase money. You get what you deserve, man. That guy don't care about you. He's got 20 of you. You know, and the same for the guy. Like, that girl doesn't care about you either, man. That girl's way too pretty. She's, she don't care about you. She has nonstop orders all day long, man. And the same with the guy with the money. They kind of, they're, they're a mirror

reflection of each other. Find your mirror reflection. You know what I mean? But yeah, I mean, that's, that is a lot what I'm learning about. And I think, and I'm not as concerned about the money as a lot of people. And I think my, this year, I felt I've made a lot with just like being okay, like being single and just like being a lot. Right. Like I went, I went to the, I went to the Philippines by myself. like on a solo trip um in january this year and that was the first time i've been across the seas uh and it was by myself first time by myself solo trip it's like epic i'm just like doing i'm doing things that i want to do and like live in this life because i'm not i feel like for a while like last

year i was like really trying to find the girl i was like i'm trying to find the girl that i'm going to marry right and like i was really craving it and like at night like i would like really miss my ex and I couldn't wait until she came back and it was like this romantic thing and then we got back together and then we broke up and then it was really hard and and and but then it was like I wanted to do it um and I initiated that and but it was just like I have for so much of like my adult life I've been so concerned like other than rehab because I couldn't even focus on it then but like like my like this part of my chunk life I've been so concerned with like getting the girl and like and like wanting that connection.

And like that, that's nice and everything. But when you're trying to fill a void with it, you really, this is like really important for me to have this solo chapter. And I still have these times where it's like at night, like before bed, like I feel like really lonely. But I'm getting better at it.

And that's, that's my journey right now is just to keep working on my codependence and keep working on being by myself. And, you know, girls will come when they come, right? I think getting the girl is really is really a race to better yourself. Because the motivation to find the girl is like, okay, I got to have all these things. What you're really doing if you're thinking about it consciously is you're creating the best version of yourself.

You know, like that's what's going to get you the person that you're really attracted to is becoming the best version of yourself. And when you, you know, you can go back to pick your mythology, you know, whether it's Return of the Jedi or whatever movie or whatever book you read, the guy that gets the girl is, you know, God, I can't remember this myth. If I think about it, I'll tell you. But the guy that gets the girl is the guy that becomes the best version of himself. And like that's why it's like you're longing for the perfect girl. No, you're longing to be the best version of yourself. Like, that's what it really comes down to is. There's a great myth, and I think there's a great book called Black Elk Speaks.

And in that book, it's a medicine man. I think he's Cherokee, but he tells like these incredible myths about that was told to him as a child. I hesitate to tell it because I'll probably butcher it. But it's something along the lines of this young man sees this woman in his village. And he is just like, it's the girl. It's the most beautiful woman in the world. And he's like, dude, you know, the tradition is he has to go and ask the father. Like, hey, can I marry your daughter?

And so he goes to the father and he's like, your daughter's beautiful. I'm a good man. You know, can I be with your daughter? He's like, do get the fuck out of you. You know, what do you have? And he's like, I got this horse over here that dad looks at. He's like, that horse is like a hundred years old, dude. This is my daughter.

You knucklehead. Get out of here. And so the guy comes, he goes and he borrows like a horse from his own. uncle and he tells his whole family, this is my girl, I love, right? Did I, I have to have a better, I have to be better anymore. And the uncle's like, here, take my whores. And the other one's like, take my flock of goats, you know, and take my, take all of, take this little piece of land that I have.

And he goes back to the dad. And dad's like, that is nothing. That is nothing. You're not even a man. Like, that's all you have, you know? And it's, you see what's going on here. He's, he's, the dad's telling him, you're not enough. You're not enough.

And he's believing I'm not enough. not enough. And so he decides to go out into the forest and like, he's like, I'm just going to go out into the forest and I'm so embarrassed because I'm not enough. And so he leaves on this forest and he comes up with this idea of like, if I become a warrior, then she'll love me. So he decides that he's going to go by himself and attack this war party, this other tribe across those, you know, five day walk. And like, so he tells his family, like, I'm going to go out here and he goes out in the forest and he starts hiking over there. And he comes to the realization of like, dude, I might die out here. Is it worth it? He's like, yeah, I think it is. And so he finds himself at the camp of this

other tribe over there. And he sneaks up to the camp out there and he sees the guards. And he like, he sees all their horses right there and stuff. And he's going to sneak. he peek through the pen and like go in there and like kill like all the different tribal members so we can go back and say he's a warrior but he opens the latch to the to the corral and he gets halfway and he gets scared and he's like fuck i can't do it so then he retreats back to the forest and he's walking back to his his own camp and the horses all escape that pen and they follow him back and so now he arrived he arrived he arrived He drives back in his village with all the enemy's horses, and he knocks on the door of the woman. He tells the dad, like, how about now?

You know, and like, the dad's like, now you're a man. You know, but in that story, he had to conquer this idea. He had to face his fear. Like, I'm going to do this great thing that no one will do. And he chickens out. And then he thinks I'm not a man because he doesn't do it. But it's the journey. Life finds a way.

Those horses followed him back and he got the girl of his dreams. You know, so while you're chasing himself, even if you fail, fail in the long run, like you are becoming a person that's the best version of themselves, even when you fail. Like you're attempting to do something so big, so enormous. And even if it doesn't work out, like life has a way of helping you find where you're supposed to be. But it's better than that. People should read Black Elk Speaks.

It's full with so many awesome tales of mythologies that we have just been passing by. It's a right of passage. And it's a story of love. And it's a story of facing your fears. and coming of age, but it's a fucking awesome story. Yeah, man. Yeah, that was a good one. That takes me back to, like, this guy I don't really watch anymore, but Hamza,

he's like, even though, you know, you're trying to do this solo chapter, it's like, don't discount the enormous value that, like, trying to get the girl, like, what it can propel you on, like, the journey. and I'm missing misquoting him but yeah that that definitely is another another aspect of it

so yeah yeah I like the um I think an avatar when the guy goes to find the he's supposed to find this awesome bird-like creature

that's meant to be with him seems like a metaphor for finding a mate to me but he's like how will I know when I find the one and they say she'll try to kill you how do you know

when you find a one she'll try to kill you right Yeah, it's been awesome. And all that, it was incredible, my first podcast, all your wisdom. I'm so happy that we met that one day at Vertex. I hope we do some more cool stuff together. Guaranteed.

Yeah. And likewise, man. I feel like I got to learn an incredible amount, man. So I'm grateful for all your time, man. And hang on briefly afterwards to everybody within the sound of my voice. Thanks for hanging out with us. I hope you have a beautiful day. That's all we got.

Aloha.