TrueLife - The Psychedelic Reformation - Eric Osborne

Episode Date: September 13, 2026

Turn on. Take the power back. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. Hope your day's going beautiful. The sun is shining. Hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. Ladies and gentlemen, when something is sacred, who gets to decide how we encounter it?

And what happens when the sacred passes through the hands of institutions that want to measure it, regulate it, monetize it, or even define what it means. Is the psychedelic movement really about legalizing a substance? Or are we witnessing something much older and much stranger? A struggle over who gets to mediate our direct experience of the sacred? My guest today is Eric Osborne, incredible new book coming out to Psychedelic Reformation.

Eric, thanks for being here today, man. How are you? I'm great, man. What a pleasure to be here with you again. Yeah, man. always a pleasure to hang out and chit chat a little bit. So this new book coming out, the psychedelic reformation, man. How did this thing come to be? Give me some background on this bad boy. Well, it's been many, many years in the making. I didn't know what it was to be when I first

started a couple of years ago drafting a book. I just knew that I had a ton of unique experience and a pretty unique perspective around psilocybin, psychedelics generally, but psilocybin in particular. And as I began really exploring what is it that I'm here to do? What am I here doing with the mushroom? And like this has been an ongoing deep investigation. You know, I don't just approach psilocybin as a mental health tool. I approach it as a way to better understand the world and the self. And so I have been studying the process on myself and on others

for, you know, better part of 27 years now, which is insane to say. And the, there are so many takeaways, but the one that is most, the one that has the most weight right now and feels the most important to communicate out during this, quote, Renaissance, is that this is not a Renaissance at all. This is not renewing something. that was lost. This is something that has always been with us. It is an enormous part of who we are, and it will be here long after we have gone. So I don't want in any way for people to feel like I am necessarily attacking the modern psychedelic movement, but I feel very strongly,

based on all of my experience and the work and studies that I've been doing over the years, that we are looking at this in kind of an inverse order. We are treating psychedelics. Again, psilocybin is my specialty. This is what I've been working with the most by far. And psilocybin is unique. Silocybin mushrooms are unique, in my opinion. and they have always been, still are, and always will be, first and foremost, a spiritual tool.

Even in the book, I begin to argue as in, you know, one of the things I didn't expect about writing book, but I love so much, is that it's really helping me continue to evolve my thinking on the things that I think about. and for a long time I spoke of psilocybin as a as a technology like a sacred technology but now I'm understanding it more as a technique right because technologies are static technologies are you know you have your computer and then you're going to upgrade your computer to the next model right whereas psilocybin we are the technology and the technique that we engage with this mushroom evolves along with us, right? So it actually upgrades our system in the same way we would upgrade our technology around us because it is a technique that we use to engage with our own inner world and better understand our outer world.

And my working with the mushroom has evolved so many times over the years. and so there's just so much here that we can explore that we are being very short-sighted in how we're approaching psychedelics and psilocybin in particular and if we're not careful then the movement itself is going to be victim to the same kind of outcomes that even Maria Sabina and O'Haka experienced

because the sacred was made profound and had it maintained its sacredness and like that's a whole complicated situation we can talk about all that if you want to um but the way that we brought psilocybin into this world or into the modern world and treated it as something that was not sacred is exactly why we saw it evolve the way that we did in the 60s and 70s and the people that shared it with us the the the folks of Oaxaca, you know, their, their land was trampled by people who were just thrill-seeking.

And the, the downfall of the original, quote, original psychedelic movement in the 60s and 70s, it wasn't that it was open access. It's that it was not treated as something sacred as a sacrament. And that's the same thing. It doesn't matter if we put it in a metal container

or if we put it in a, you know, free love party all the time container, if it loses its sacredness, then it loses its true utility and it actually becomes harmful more than helpful. There's a ton here, ma'am. Yeah, I love it.

The medical world, like, I have a feeling or I don't have a feeling I know. In the last couple weeks, I've already started being come at on LinkedIn pretty aggressively by some therapists and clinicians who say that I'm dangerous. You know, what you're doing and what you're spousing is dangerous.

And it's like, man, if you only understood the danger in treating this purely like a mental health treatment, because people will encounter otherworldly, strange things, inexplicable things, paranormal phenomenon, they will encounter that. And as long as we continue to pathologize it,

like that's what, that's what set this whole thing off, right? It's like, I had a, uh, So I worked with this oncologist who said, you know, he welcomed me to share this conversation that we had. And in his experience, you know, in the integration of experience, and this was like his fifth or six experience that I've worked with him for. He's a very spiritually minded man, devout Catholic, amazing human being. And he had had, you know, a handful of five, six gram experiences.

And I was like, are you ready to step it up? You know, after his last five-gram experience, he's like, I really want to, Eric. I'm ready to take whatever you want to give me. So I was like, all right, well, let's go to eight from here. And so the next time he came in, he did eight grams. And after the experience, in the next day when we were doing our, you know, integration circle, he was like, yeah, you know, it was really challenging, his most difficult experience I've ever had. I had this period of de-realization, which, you know, is like, some say it's an adverse

experience or whatever and just kind of went on and I was like yeah it's interesting that you know you would you would relate to this as an adverse experience it's like yeah no well that's you know it's not like it didn't feel great but like that's what they called in the medical literature is like in the research like anytime someone has a period of derealization that's an adverse experience I's like that's isn't that funny that this very typical experience of working with psychedelics is labeled as an adverse experience and That's not the first time that I've seen the medical world typify a typical psychedelic experience as an adverse effect. But when he said it, it hit me different this time because it was like, man, even in framing it like that, the clinical world framing this experience as adverse immediately sets this individual up to not realize the value that it could have had.

and even more than that, to think that it was, there was something wrong with his experience. And it really pulled me back to see like this bigger container that we're building where people are going to be having experiences that could be enormously valuable. And this experience of his was really valuable after we unpacked it, right? Like it takes unpacking. It takes a deeper relating to for him to be like, oh, I can see how that was valuable. And he came to say, like, it wasn't really an adverse experience. And, like, I actually, like, I disagree with what I've thought I agreed with previously.

You know, and so it's like, no, actually the medical community, if they pathologize people's normal experiences under psychedelics are potentially doing more harm, or at minimum are not allowing people to reap the most benefit out of their experience. right so I'm kind of just like at this point I have faced enough um I faced enough criticism over the years the thing that held me back from writing a book previously was just like I don't want to take the heat of people coming at me I already got enough of that because I am kind of like you know I'm just some guy from Kentucky who ate a bunch of mushrooms and then the mushrooms were like go start the world's first psilocybin retreat and I was like no and they're like yeah I don't know like No, and eventually I did it. And then from there, you know, people are like,

who do you think you are feeding, you know, people from all around the world who are traumatized and have all these mental health issues, mushrooms? I'm like, well, I guess I'm a guy that's eating a lot of mushrooms. Right. And understands or I hesitate to say understands, but like is familiar and fairly comfortable with the process enough that I know, at least what I know is to get out of the way of the process

and let people have their own experience. So anyway, it's a little bit of a scatter plot there because there's so much in my mind about what is right and what is wrong about this. And I'm kind of only just starting to really take this stand publicly. So you're helping me in real time get comfortable with the arrows that are going to be flying. Yeah, the idea of pathologizing it and adverse effects and the terminology that seems to be used in clinical. models. I agree with so much of it. I do think there's room for both on some level.

I definitely think that the individual is the only person who can thoroughly heal their own trauma. And sometimes I see the clinical model as sometimes as an individual trying to insert themselves in between an individual trying to heal themselves. You know what I mean by that? Like, if you have this clinical model, it's based on insurance. It's based on adverse outcomes. You're sort of getting in the way of that person actually finding their own healing.

But as a facilitator, isn't a facilitator kind of do the same thing? Like, what is the difference between a, break it down from me. Like, let's say someone comes to you, you're actually, you're providing them help. You're providing them a gateway. you're helping them realize what their own trauma is. What's the difference between someone that's in a lab? Aren't they trying to do the same thing? So my approach, I, first of all of off, I am not in favor of this idea of psychedelic guides.

The mushroom is the guide. Right. We have co-journiers. We have people who are there along with us. Right. We have people who are maybe more experienced and can kind of like provide a sense of comfort when it gets really rocky. Right. But I am not, I will never call myself a guide. If anything, I call myself a mentor. And I believe that is truly what those who are experienced with these, I will call them

medicines. I do believe there is a space for the clinic. I do 100% agree that. It's subordinate to the spiritual aspect. But so I never look at this in terms of guiding. Sometimes, I think, the most helpful way that I are not sometimes often the most helpful way that I can be of service to people is to just trip alongside them. Even yesterday we did our two-week integration call after our last ceremony. And this was this was the first ceremony of my entire life. This is the first time in 27 years of administering psilocybin that I played no leadership role, right? My wife, and the other spaceholders were there. They ran everything.

I was fully a participant. This is the first time ever. And still, people said, repeatedly, the fact that I looked over and I saw Eric on seven grams on the ground, writhing and doing his thing, right? That gave me permission to go deeper into my experience. And so that's so much of, it exemplifies so much of what we have wrong.

about this clinical approach where we think that the expert comes in and advises you on how to have your experience and process your experience. Or my belief is that the expert, if anything, comes in and exemplifies how to engage in the experience. And if anything helps you process your experience by processing alongside you. Yeah. You know, it's understandable why we have the models that we do in the allopathic clinical world, right? And I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with that approach. It's that we have almost completely left behind. If not, I mean, I think it's fair to say in the, like the forest end of the clinical spectrum,

we have completely left behind the spiritual aspect of this. And I know that there are those who will say that we're just meat suits and, you know, it's all ends here when we die. And that's totally fine. I'm not here to try to convince anybody of anything. But I also know that there are more people who have had experiences where they understand that they are eternal, where they understand that this is an energetic world we live in. That you, the physical body does not animate itself.

There is some mystery that occurs that infuses what we call life into flesh. And I don't know that we'll ever figure that out. I don't think that we're ever meant to figure that out. So my hope is that psychedelics eventually bring these two worlds together of the material and the spiritual world. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to say, rising on the ground, because I have had some incredible trips where I am on the ground, naked, making weird sounds. You know, and I don't, first off, I don't think I want anyone to see me doing that, number one. Number two, I don't even know if someone in a lab, like, I can't imagine some doctor or being hooked up to electrodes or, like, being in an MRI, or whatever these clinical labs have to try to measure what's going on.

inside your body while that's happening. Like, I can't imagine that would be an adverse effect. This person's on the ground having a seizure. 100%. 100%. I mean, but even just like the, quote, typical model of psychedelic therapy where you have two facilitators and one person, you know, eye shades and earphone and all that. Like, that is so far removed from the traditional way of working.

with psilocybin, right? And the number of times that I have had clinicians and therapist who I held space for, who I sat with for their very first psychedelic experience, who then came out of it and said, what the fuck was that? Like, that's not, I did not read about that in my studies. And I'm like, yeah, I understand, I understand. And so, like, part of it is that in order to normalize psychedelic, We have to present them in a certain way.

And part of it is that the lens that they're being presented through, this medical lens is just simply not adjusted for what they occasion. And I have worked with a number of clinicians, people who have been involved in some of the early research who have told me that like, yeah, that did not go well. People did not respond well to being in a, you know, a generalized living room in the middle of some 12-story building behind four different security gates, you know. People overwhelmingly get more out of their experiences short and long term in nature. This is how, I hesitate to say this is how they're meant to be used. but when you see consistently the outcomes are improved by being in a communal setting, tripping with others is very important and very valuable, and you getting naked in front of others can have incredible liberating properties.

I've seen it so many times. Tripping in nature is incredibly valuable, taking off your shoes, being in the dirt, looking at the clouds and the stars and the fire and all that we are made of. Because these are not, again, the way that we're presenting psychedelics as some bio-neurochemical response that's going to recalibrate your internal chemistry so that you're no longer suffering from, or it's going to, you know, put a fresh coat of snow on the slope so you can have that cliche in your head again. again, it's, there are so much more than that.

This is why, like, the indigenous and traditional uses, psilocybin was primarily used for diagnosing physical illnesses, for finding lost items and people, for different forms of clairvoyance and skill building that we, most people, don't even believe as a reality. And there's research from the 40s and 50s that showed this. There was very clear research that showed psychedelic medicines, plants, having the capacity to reliably increase extrasensory perception. And all of that was shut down. So, like, there's a big part of me that still does not have a whole lot of faith

that the, you know, the classic medical world is going to really turn these powerful tools out to the people because they become our own healers. We become more powerful. And that is not what the medical system is designed to encourage. Yeah. I agree with that 100%.

I think a lot of the adverse effects people are being diagnosed with are the realization that they live in a society that is sick. Like you, right? Like that's what it is. Like you realize, like what the fuck am I doing? Like, did I hate this job?

I hate this relationship. What the fuck am I doing? And that's a natural react. That is a, that is a, I think that at least for me, I can only speak to my own experience. But that is the realization that I, my relationship with mushrooms primarily has taught me is like, I am living so far out of balance. I am not, I am not being who I'm supposed to be. I'm not being true to myself. I look around and like, it reveals to you the illness of the illness of.

the fucking planet of the world, of your relationships of who you are and your way you're treating people and the way you look at people. That's the last thing that the medical container seems to want. They want to be able to put a patch on something. How do I get this guy back to work? How do I get this guy? Yeah, how do I get them back in? How do I get them making more money? How do I get them to be a better cog in this giant system? But psychedelics brushes all that out of a way. It's like, dude, that system's a problem. This is a huge problem for you. This is why you're ill. This is why you have restless leg syndrome. It's not it's not a genetic defect. You don't need another peel. Yeah. You don't need that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's being of adverse

effects, you know, I think effects. I think about what, what is that really in in psychedelics? What is actually an adverse effect in a psychedelic experience? In my mind, it is something that, like, I can't even say it. I cannot even say that there is an adverse effect to psilocybin. I can say that there, without proper care and containment, there can be threat to physical harm and further traumatization. I had an experience. I ever talk about the experience where I sweat blood. No, tell me. So this is 100%. Yeah. It's not about you. It's something. So this would 100% be classified as an adverse effect. And yet it was still the most powerful,

the most transformative experience of my life. And it happened, what, 20, 10 years ago? So I was in the, I, me and my butt, me and a friend were going to take some mushrooms. And he, for whatever reason, couldn't make it up to my farm. So I was like, okay, we were going to split six grams. I'll go ahead and take six grams. You know, three and three is what it was going to be.

Six is not a big dose. I'll just take the six myself. So I built my little fire, did a little thing, got up there by my hut and under the moon. And as it was coming on, I had this overwhelming sense that death had come for me. Like I felt like I could see the Grim Reaper standing on the other side of the fire. And I was going through a divorce. My wife was like wishing death upon me or my ex-wife. it was a really, really unpleasant period of my life.

And this started coming on. And I was like, oh, no, like, this is for real. This is for real, right? I'm dying. So I kind of, like, panicked, went into my house, grabbed a few things, some, like, sacred texts that I have and some tobacco and kind of worked through it. But it was coming out. It was so, so heavy and so, so strong.

And while like it cut the edge off of this immediate sense of my own doom, I found myself up walking around through my garden. And as I was walking through my garden, I somehow experienced myself relating to this idea of the Garden of Gassimony, like the night before Jesus was crucified. He's in this garden of the Garden of Gessimeneum. And so I still was like, I think I might die tonight. I think this might be the end. And it kept getting more and more intense. And so it finally came back where like, you know, you are going to die. You are dying tonight.

And I eventually laid on the ground. And I thought that I was, my internal dialogue was that I was bleeding internally. And so I think I'm bleeding internally. Wow. I'm bleeding internally. Like I'm thinking like, I got to get myself to the hospital, right? And the most important, the most important muscle that one can crack, grow or build going into solo psychedelic work particularly is that of staying put. I call it a stay put muscle.

Whatever happens. And I have had so many experiences where I thought this was the end of the line, Eric, you broke it this time. You broke your brain or you're actually going to die to me. night, right? But there's always this little kernel that I've built into my reflex system to just stay. I know that I'm safe. Ride it out, ride it out. Right. So this night, which was very early on in that training of myself, I was, you know, talking myself down not to go to the hospital. No, you can't drive. You're not driving. If you die, you're just going to die. And so the last thing I consciously remembered was I threw my glasses at the moon,

collapsed on the ground, fell onto the ground, probably naked at this point. And when I did, there were these beings that came to me in my mind and said, relax, you are bleeding internally, but it's because we're cleaning out your DNA. So just relax. And then it showed me like my DNA unraveling and all this junk DNA. And then I went through this whole intergalactic thing and very profound. found very deep.

And eventually just, like, fell asleep. Woke up the next morning, in the grass, like, what the actual hell was that, right? Tried to put myself together, went inside to get another pair of glasses because I couldn't hardly see. When I got into the bathroom, before I put my glasses on, I looked at my face in the mirror, and I was like, Jesus, there. You are a mess. It looked like I had dirt all over my forehead and my bridge of my nose. And so I got some water and splashed it on. And when I did, it immediately turned bright red.

And I was like, what the fuck is going on here? What just, what had just happened? And I realized like, this is blood. It was blood on my hands. I looked at my pores up close. It's like, oh, my God, what the fuck? I'm sweating blood? What the hell happened here?

And then so I went and did a little bit online digging and come to find out that it's actually a condition. that people, it's very rare, but it has been documented when people are in front of a firing squad or about to be hung. It's this kind of stress response to imminent death. And so in the story of Jesus in the Garden of Gassimony, it says that he was so distressed that he sweated blood, right? So this actually happened to me. And there was, there was a little bit of a time. There was a period of time, like that day for a few hours where I thought, this was an adverse effect. And as I sat with it more, I began to believe the nature of my own experience. Okay?

And I believe that this is ultimately the difference between, particularly with psychedelics, what we consider an adverse experience or a helpful experience, is do we trust? the nature of the experience. And so if we don't trust it, then obviously it's adverse. This shouldn't be happening. So if you have a period of de-realization and you come out of that and you think that was bad, then it's an adverse experience. But if you come out of that and you sit with it and you find value in it, you have some curiosity and try to explore the value in it,

then it's a positive experience. And the same thing with this one of mine, I could have looked at that like this is all bad this is this is a bad thing that happened but because i sat with it and explored the history like the there there's obviously a mystical component to this because it's part of the story of christ right of jesus and what i took away from it because of how i interpreted it it is still one of the most positive and powerful experiences of my life the same thing with the insanity, right? Like people talk about temporary psychosis on psilocybin as an adverse effect. I have witnessed hundreds of times this phenomenon. I've experienced it myself countless times. And every single time, I have seen it be a total net positive only because of how it was

managed afterwards. Because I, when there have been, I would say that there had been a, a handful of people that I've worked with over the years that were just because of their conditioning were incapable of seeing this as a positive thing. And they're like, no, mushrooms are bad, never coming back. And that's fine. You know, that's, that's where they're at with it. But overwhelmingly, the majority of people who sit with those.

experiences afterwards come to say, no, I really see that there was value with it now that I've sat with it and talked through it with someone who has had a similar experience, who can help me see it in a different way. It's incredible. Like even the like this, um, whether or not mushrooms are a medicine, a drug, or a sacrament is only a matter of perspective. It's just a matter of perspective. And I think that's one of the great lessons of psychedelics is the power of our perspective. As our perspective can heal, our perspective crafts and creates the world around us in so many ways. And so when the medical world comes at this and tells me that this is an adverse effect, when I know good and well when handled properly, it is a positive effect. Then that tells me it's all about perspective. I don't know. Does that make, does that make, does that make

sense what I'm saying there does I get to a yeah 100% I the psychedelic induced psychosis is a real thing and most people it's a real thing

I've experienced it myself and that story is fucking amazing but I can imagine I can only imagine what it would feel like to be in that state and the fact that you have had prior experience with mushrooms and had that kernel, the kernel of truth, that stay put, I'm going to be okay.

Someone with a lesser ability or a first time, that could radically drive them to, in their own life or to go out hurt somebody else. That is why I believe wholeheartedly that mentorship is essential in this work. And I, you know, I shouldn't say essential, maybe. Or, you know, for me, the mushroom was my mentor. I didn't have any agree around me. I didn't have anybody to teach me. It's not that I've rejected it.

just wasn't accessible. So I'm curious though when you say, when you speak of psychedelic-induced psychosis, there's two ways that I think about that. There's the acute in the experience and the longer-lasting potential for psychosis. Are you talking about one or the other in particular? I would have to think about my definition of psychosis. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's where we do.

Because I have had some experiences. I had an experience where I took a pretty large dose, like 10 grams, and I was in my living room, and I got like the Holy Man syndrome, like where I realized. And it wasn't, it wasn't so much of an epiphany as it was like real life, this is who I am. Like I'm God. I remember sitting in my library and being like, dude, I fuck it. How did I write all these books? You know, and I started just, I had this awesome library.

I wrote every one of these books. And then it dawned on me. Well, that's because you're God. I'm like, oh, my God. You know what? And then the more that I thought about it, like everything just made sense to me. And it was almost like I was everybody.

I am God. I am the lamp. I am my fucking neighbor. I am everything here. And at one point in time, I realized, Dude, I should probably go, it was like three in the morning. I'm like, I should probably go outside and tell telling my neighbor this.

This is very important. Eric, people need to know this. And my neighbor, they should know that I'm God. You know, I got as far out, like I got out into the cul-de-sac. And then I'm like, wait a minute. This is probably, yes, I am God. But I don't know if there's a good idea. You know, but I sat out there for a while contemplated.

I actually went back in my house. but so that would be the the in-series psychosis. We're like, oh my God, this is a realization. I don't, I don't know that I consider that psychosis. Okay, that's probably the bad word for it. I mean, I think it's like a true realization. Yes. Right?

It's like, okay, yeah, there's truth there. There is. Joseph Campbell quote that the mystic and the madman swim in the same waters, but one drowns and the other swims. Right, right. You know, stuff like that, basically. And then the latter half of that, So that was in the process of it.

And you're right, psychosis is the wrong word, but that's definitely a word that would be used by a lab or the medical container. But afterwards, when I really thought about it, that concept that I have the divine spark within me, that I am God, it made all my relations so much better. It made me have this radical light of empathy with people that may be acting out in a strange way,

like, oh, that person's having a realization right now. I know what that feels like. So the long-term results after integration, like it made me such a better person. Like, dude, what does that mean if you're God? Like, how should you handle yourself if you're God? Like, shouldn't you have a little bit of empathy for people? Shouldn't you go around and try to make the world a little bit better

in everything you do in every word you speak? Shouldn't you at least try to be down that path? And so, you know, if that had happened in a lab or something like that, if you'd lock this guy up, You know, and they do. They lock people up all the time like that. I know you think you're God. Yeah.

Come over here. We've got a padded room for you, God. I'm just like, the number of times that I have, because I've hired it, like, I'm not anti-therapist. I visit therapist. I have many friends and colleagues who are therapists that I love and respect. And there is also very much a contingency in therapy that believes that they are the one who is there to correct and guide you to your mental health.

Did you know I explored this in the book as I was going through this? So there is no coincidence that therapy has the need, desire, the industry of therapy has exponentially grown as we have lost our spiritually based communities, as we have lost our faith, as we have Our religion, we are turning to therapists, and we're spending $200 to $400 an hour to go into a room and talk to one person that we could, for the same thing that we could get from our community for almost nothing, right? And there was a Michael Lambert who was a psychiatrist in the 90s that did some studies that ultimately showed that only 15% of therapeutic outcomes. are connected to the therapeutic modalities that are employed. Okay, so like CBT, DBT, ACT, all these, all that are great. There's incredible value there, right?

I've been very transparent about my mental health struggles. I have struggled with borderline personality disorder. I have been suicidal, the vast majority of my life. Thank you, mushrooms for your therapeutic quality. Yeah. stating my life and these therapeutic practices have helped me enormously in stabilizing and in my own personal recovery. So I'm not discrediting them. But when 40% of therapeutic outcomes are related to the life that you live outside of the therapy office,

when 30% of the outcomes are related to the person, the relationship and report, that you have with your therapist and another 15% are connected to your faith that you can get better, your trust, that you can get better, basically placebo. 805%

of the positive benefit associated with therapy is immediately accessible through community, through lifestyle adjustment, and through your own perspective. Yeah. And so it feels very much like we've, we've really, we've got things out of balance here. And, you know, I understand that people have such an adverse reaction to the

word church. I get it. I was traumatized by religion. I was raised Catholic. I thought I was going to be a priest when I was a kid, right? Like, I have always loved the mystery. Yeah. How I understand God now. And then when the Catholic Church had all of its scandal breakdown, I was like, oh, my God, my God, this is, and then I was a priest that tried to groom me as a child and all these things started coming back. And then I started thinking about the inquisitions and all that. I was like, hold up. This institution is completely fucked, right? So I left the Catholic Church and was staunchly atheist for a number of years. And it really wasn't until the work in Jamaica

when I started doing these group ceremonies. I was calling them sessions then, but I was doing these group sessions, and I would undeniably witness paranormal spiritual occurrences, orbs coming in and floating around a group, trans-personal experiences, clairvoyancy, people coming back, from that world and telling me about myself and what God told them about me and things coming true and all these things.

And so, you know, it ultimately culminated in this one experience that I had with a woman who, I talk about the story in the book, but she had been, when she was a child, she was raped and suffocated. And in her, they brought her back to life. if they revived her, resuscitated her. And she had a powerful near-death experience that I shared with her in this ceremony. I won't give it away too much because it's a pretty compelling story from the book. I'd love for folks to read and feel. But that is when, for me, it was like, okay, Eric, this is your ego trying to say that this is not spiritual. This is your ego trying to box this into some, you know,

psychological experience, some young-in archetypes. Those things exist. There are archetypes that we encounter and there is a spirit world. There are beings that we can encounter, engage, and build relationship with that can help us in this world. And so that shifted my perspective around the experience as as spiritual in nature. And then when we left Jamaica, and I started reflecting on all the work that we did there, and as amazing and as good as it is, and I have, you know, I still, again, like there's a place for the clinic, there's a place for the retreats, there's a place for all of this. But ultimately, I feel very confidently that where it's going to end up leading to is in spiritually based communities. Because from a

clinical therapeutic standpoint or from a destination getaway retreat model we cannot adequately provide the long-term care that people need from their spiritual emergence and that is what people have they come into these experiences like the number of you know of engineers and doctors I worked with this guy he's a engineer with NASA he was at the time and he had this experience like he was a total materialist. And they had this experience and he's just like, Eric, what in the world? I've got this all wrong.

I'm like, well, you know, there's probably a bigger, bigger way to look at things. And so then, because that was the retreat model, you know, I talked to him a little while afterwards, and then he was just gone and I never saw him again.

But now what we're building with the church, through this community, we have people who have experiences, and then they come back into like a, family of people who are sharing similar experiences that can help them relate to their own experience and continue unpacking it, continue working on it. No part of me believes this hype of one psychedelic session and all of a sudden you've released all this trauma or you're healed from this whatever depression or whatever it is, right? This is an ongoing practice. This is, can be a very

valuable part of a healthy lifestyle. Most people probably need like two good psychedelic experiences a year, really, to maintain a baseline level, right? And so that's also the other component of community is that, for one, from an affordability standpoint, you can, nobody's going to be going to Oregon and spending $4,000 twice a year to eat mushrooms with somebody in a room, you know, but you can do that in the comfort of your own home for almost free, you know, grow mushrooms in your closet, and then have a community where you can continue to come to and integrate these experiences in and build and grow that community around you. I'm just so confident because of what I've seen over the years and what is the historical record, you know, that these sacred medicines have always been held in

a communal model with a spiritual perspective. And so we're just kind of fooling ourselves right now. It's cool. Like, you know, it's God playing hide and seek. It's the game that we play, you know. But I'm in this game to help wake up more myself and help wake others up a little faster if they're open to it. Why do you think people are so afraid of the church? Like, there seems to be like a, there seems to be, I encounter it with some people that I know and respect that are just so anti-church.

Like, you don't have to go. or, you know, maybe it's, I don't know, let me ask you the question. Why do you think people are so afraid of the church? Well, it's interesting that folks are afraid of the church and not of the hospital, right? You know that the third leading cause of death in America is medical malpractice, like medical mistake.

The people that are supposed to be healing us are within the, the third leading cause of death. Okay, so I think justifiably, people push back on dogmatic authoritarianism. The church, quote unquote, became this monolith of dogma telling people how to live their lives, be afraid of going to hell

and give us money so that you don't get there, right? And now we've converted to scientism is our new religion. I'm a science lover. Science is amazing. Real science and real religion hold the same place. They seek the mystery. They do not seek the answers.

They seek better questions. Real science and real religion seek better questions, not answers. Dogmatic religion and scientism seek to say, this is how it is, and we're the experts, and you believe us, And then you give us money because we're the experts and we tell you what is what. We saw this with COVID. I don't know where people are with that. I'm not trying.

Like at a certain point, I just don't care. I'm not anti-vax. I think that vaccines are incredible. They can be, they save lives, no doubt. And when anybody comes to me with some slogans that just tells me to trust them because that's what they say, I'm going to be questioning that from the get. And so we converted. There was a conversion, whether it was intentional or organic.

I'm not fully sure. But people left religion and converted to scientism. And we're going to wake up. I think COVID again was one of these instances that is waking people up to like, wait, maybe chemotherapy is actually killing us, right? Like maybe that's not how we fight cancer is by pumping. ourselves full of more chemicals and radiation. But that's what we've been told and that's what we believed because these people were the perceived authorities. It's just a different frock, right?

It's like, first it was the priest and his frock. Now it's the medical doctor and their frock. I just heard a story the other day of a guy here in Louisville, one of the leading neurologist in the country. And this guy was almost, he was, if he wouldn't have changed his ways, he. he would have been removed from his position because he was treating Alzheimer's with lifestyle changes, and it was too effective. This was the neurologist told this story that the hospital that he worked for said, you're spending too much time with patients and you're not pumping them with enough pharmaceuticals,

and you're having too good of outcomes. So you've got to either get on board with what we're selling or you've got to get off this boat. that that's no different than the church saying like give us your money so you can not go to hell there's no different so i think we're at a point of waking up slowly um psychedelics will help with that but again i'm not sure like it's hard for me to imagine the the medical world really endorsing something that wakes people up to the game that's being played on them you see it happening i'm sorry go ahead sorry you see it happening like there's lots of experiments where how do we take the, how do we take the psychedelic element out of the healing part? Right. You know, like you can't.

Like that is the healing. Well, I mean, there's a component of that there. Like, I've worked with a lot of people who were on SSRIs. This was the first, this was the first kind of line of attack that I came up against when I started the retreats is I would take people who were on SSRIs. I did enough research to know that it was safe. There were decades of anecdotal reports of people working with psilocybin and SSRIs.

We know that psilocybin does not have any M-A-O-I component to it, right? So it's not dangerous to mix with SSRIs. A lot of people, a lot of medical doctors were saying that I was, you know, putting people in danger by doing this, but whatever. What can happen is people SSRIs can almost reliably dampen the intensity of the experience, right? And so I've fed people, you know, who were on SSRIs 10, 15 grams of mushrooms and they didn't feel anything. But they were able to come off of their SSRIs without any side effects. They experienced some benefit. So I 100% can see that there is a bio-neurochemical component here, right? It's real.

It's there. And I think that you can remove the psychedelic component and still have some positive effect. It's not completely untrue. But that experience of you experiencing yourself as God, that's something that nobody can replicate and nobody can ever. take away from you, and that is every human's birthright. I feel like some of the accounts I've read in that story that you said underscores it is the attempt to hijack who gets to define meaning.

You know what I mean by that? Like you as an individual, like if you take the mushrooms and you have your own journey called, we use whatever adjectives you want, religious, adverse, whatever adjective you want to throw behind there, you as the individual get to interpret the, meaning of that. But when you give away your authority to a clinician, now you're allowing that individual to tell you what the problem is, to tell you what the label is, to tell you what the meaning is. And I don't think you can get to the best version of yourself unless you as an individual find your own meaning. And it seems like the labs are stealing that in a way. Maybe they're

stealing that aspect. That seems like healing to me, finding your own meaning. 100%. 100%. As we start to understand the psychosomatic nature of a lot of our illnesses, right? And that box into this same conversation that if I have an experience within my body, and there's plenty of record of this of a clinician defining it as one way, then if I believe that, then that is going to be my experience. But if I don't believe that if I don't buy that diagnosis, not always, I'm not saying that we can always just, you know,

woo, woo, heal ourselves with their mind. But there are way too many documented instances of people who said, no, I'm not buying this diagnosis. I'm going to have a different meaning to this information, and it completely changes the nature of the reality that they experience. I watched my neighbor die from cancer, and the doctors told him he didn't have long to live, and you could just see it.

He was just like, for a while, he was like, I'm going to, I'm going to live, I'm going to fight this, I'm going to fight this. And then when the doctor started telling him that he wasn't going to be able to, you just saw him give in. You saw his will just collapse. And I'm not saying that he could have survived the cancer just with the force of his will,

but I am saying that I've worked with a number of people who were staged four patients, who thought they were going to die until they took mushrooms, and they found the resolve to live, and they're still living today in complete remission. Was that their mind? Was that just the meaning that they made out of the information that they received? I don't know.

I still stand and say that I think the scientific field that will offer the most insight into the psychedelic experience is one that we've only barely begun to explore, and that is quantum biology. We are light. It is all light. The sun feeds this planet. There is soil, water, air, and sun, fire. And somehow, this incredible ball of fire in the sky feeds all the plant life along with the water and creates everything that we see here. We are light. And it's impossible for me to go into. a narrative description of the experiences that I've had that have shown me very clearly that

we are light. But as we start to understand that more at a fundamental level and what that really means for our experience and the defining of our experience, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with the double slit experiment and the what's called the observer effect. You know, these things are, they're happening on quantum levels, but they're radiating out into new Newtonian physics, you know. So that's something that is, when I say that, people, I think a lot of folks don't even know what to make of that, and I'm still very much putting it together. And I have just a little bit of insight into what's, you know, called quantum biology.

But from what I've begun to understand in the study of photons and, you know, all this quantum mechanics, the things that I've seen in distant healing and whatnot, I've. I feel very strongly that that is the actual science, not psychology by any means. I mean, the psychological benefits are just like the apples on the tree of this mystical, otherworldly, call it quantum experience. Yeah. You know, something that comes to mind for me when I think about psychedelics or mushrooms in particularly is like the ordeal.

You know, and I think one thing I've noticed in this, in this way, wave of the psychedelic renaissance or whatever we're calling it is that we're replacing the ordeal with money like you know it used to be when you had an ordeal and maybe someone close to you dies maybe you almost die maybe you lose a job or whatever the whatever the psychological ordeal ordeal is that's usually a gateway that would bring you you to psychedelics, to seek out psychedelics, to do your own research, to find either someone that could give you the mushroom so that you could go and interpret this ordeal for yourself versus like nowadays you can take a course and become a facilitator, just if you have enough money.

You know what I mean? It seems like there's something that calls the individual to mushrooms or calls the individual to the religious experience or something that calls to you. And I see in today's world that's kind of being wiped away and saying, like, you don't need the ordeal. You don't have to go through an event. You just have to pay us money, and then we'll give it to you. You know, and that to me separates the spiritual nature

from what these substances are there to do versus, like, the clinical model on some level. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah, I mean, I see the ordeal in kind of a couple of different ways. I think one of the, one of the functions of the psychedelic is the consciously induced ordeal, right? Or the, the quote, ordeals that we experienced are, you know, a tragic life event. Very often, very often, anybody that's in aware of their personal growth that is intentionally, trying to become a better person, we'll see that if you don't listen to your intent, intuition, if you don't do the things that your intent intuition is telling you to do, that you will go through an ordeal that will wake you up to drastic nature, right?

Like cigarettes, if you don't listen to your body, it's saying stop smoking, then you're going to probably experience lung cancer and have to go through that or some ailment and have to go through that ordeal to wake up to the reality that life has been trying to to present you with. And that's the value of the psychedelic experience is that you can just, instead of waiting for the other foot to drop, right, or the other shoe to drop, you can actually go in and say, all right, give it to me, let me go ahead and face this thing head on

and become a better person by intentionally going through this, this ordeal. The, what you're speaking to, the, um, like the lack of ordeal leading to a next level self. This is what Kabbalah, so I've been studying quite a bit of Kabbalah as an integrative practice. And this is what Kabbalah would call the bread of shame, right? It's when you get something that you didn't earn. To be a spaceholder, to be working with psychedelics traditionally and for good reason required. five, 10 years of apprenticeship.

Yes. Right. Like it is impossible to try to convey the infinite variety of experiences that can arise in a psychedelic session. And the person who in my framework kind of egotistically calls themselves a guide, right? Better be damn well experience with as many of them as they can be. And if they are, then there are. they were eventually going to realize that they're not a guide.

Yeah, totally. Or just somebody that's riding the waves alongside somebody else, right? And so then when we have these programs where you can pay $10,000 to get a certification for a job that doesn't even exist yet, you call yourself, you know, this title that has no real meaning other than what is like culturally being applied to it, then you're like, this bread of shame thing, what you end up experiencing is a sense of ultimate lack. And I've seen this. I've seen this in people who have gone through the psychedelic certification programs. I tell a story about this in the book. I just coincidentally or serendipitously had two folks join us for a retreat

who one had just graduated from like one of the leading psychedelic certification programs. And she was newly minted and this was the you know her future was a psychedelic uh wellness practitioner or whatever and then the other person um worked for one of the leading nonprofits who was developing a synthetic form of psilocybin and they both came down at the same time and when they came on this retreat there was also a woman who i had worked with a year or so before who i like i still like i hesitate to say it but this is what the reality of it was is that she was Vietnamese and she had this

ancestor spirit that would take over her body. And it was like, when it first happened, she was like, Eric, I got to tell you something. They used to say that my grandma was possessed by this spirit and that she had this whole family tradition.

And she was like, I didn't believe it, but like, what I experienced on my first dose, like, I think there's something there. So then that was a three gram dose. And then she took six grams and this thing like, whoa, came out in full. And like I had this conversation and all this thing.

It was the first retreat. The second retreat they came. And on the second dose when the Vietnamese lady took six grams again, this thing came out with a clairvoyance that is not uncommon, right? Where I've seen this many times where a person will become this clairvoyant who can look at other people and diagnose their life. I had one time, a little bit of side note, there was this one time I had a sex therapist

who worked with victims and the abusers, and he did the entirety of his dose. He told everyone about their sex life. And everybody was like, oh, damn, wow. Like, he was spot on. He's like, and this is how you orgasm, and this is how you. And everybody was like,

And there's like no turning it off. There's just no fucking turning it off, right? And everybody's like, oh, my God, this is crazy. So anyway, the Vietnamese lady, she, in this dose with the newly minted psychedelic professionals, she turned into this clairvoyant that was basically reading everyone's shadow, exposing everyone's shadow, including mine. Like, I actually got the brunt of it. And this is initiation for someone who would be a psychedelic support guide facilitator mentor, is that you are the most subject to what is coming through in this experience, right?

If you're going to put yourself in the front and say, I'm a leader, then you're going to be 10th of my higher. Right. And so she was like, all night, she was like, it was wild man. She like started spinning with her eyes closed. A little be lady spinning with her eyes closed or armed out, spinning her all around. And I was like Gardner, so she wouldn't bump into people or bump into the fire and stuff. and she would just like stop and then she would point at people with her eyes closed and she would just give them to them like you're so afraid of yourself you're so like for me

it was like you're not listening why are you not listening and at this point in my relationship with the mushroom i was not listening to my intuition i was like my intuition was saying take a break from eating mushrooms and i was like no no this is right and so like for two hours she berated me in front of everybody, intermittently berating other people. And so she turned to the lady who had graduated from the training program, and she just, like, laid into her with her eyes closed. Like, the human being didn't know who she was looking at, but this intelligence within her 100% did and was just like, you're so full of yourself, you think you know everything, like,

went off on her. And like, there's nothing you can do to stop this. What am I going to do? Tie her down and take her into a room. right? Yeah, yeah, like talk about some adverse effects. So anyway, at the end of it, there's a group of like 10 people plus like five, four, or five facilitators who everybody got called out, right, through this session. At the end of it, everybody was like humbled because they recognized the truth

and what we said except for those people who had been trained in the clinical model. And they were like, Eric, this is not how psilocybin works. What did you do? You do. Yeah, you're right. This is not how psilocybin works. I wish I understood how else rules. It's just like, yeah, there's the,

and they didn't even continue on working in psychedelics world. And so this notion of this bread of shame concept, I find to be really important and really valuable in a couple of different aspects, but particularly when it comes to spaceholding under a certification that has no experience behind it, whatsoever. Yeah. It's such an interesting time. Like I,

do you see, in my mind, I see the continued, if we continue down this path, you're going to have, I don't see how you can not have another Jones town or another something of that aspect. Is that too far,

too far gone or what are your thoughts? That's really important. And we talk, talk about this in the book. Like what prevents the bad actors in the religious model, what prevents the bad actors in the clinical model. Like, you can't tell me that the clinical world isn't full of bad actors, too. There's a whole story I have in there about a medical doctor who came down to Jamaica.

And, like, literally, I won't go into it. It's too long of a story. It's in the book, but she, like, because of her malpractice outside of a psychedelic session, going against my advice, almost killed a woman, almost killed a woman. And so like we there is this we there's the cult of medicine is equally as dangerous as the cult of religion or personality. Yeah. And so what do we do to prevent that? Well, in the book, I offer the suggestion that we use apply with what's called the bite model.

Are you familiar with the bite model? Is that when you bite down on a stick? You bite down on the arm of someone who's trying to persuade you or trying to bring you into their cult. No, it's a classic assessment tool to determine whether or not an organization is or how cult-like an organization is. Right. So it's behavior, information, thought, and emotional control. All right. There's a spectrum.

And so we can apply this same tool to churches, to politics, to workplaces, to medical, to medical. world and explore like, okay, how culty is this? Is someone trying to influence or control my behavior? And there's a lot of very subtle or very profound ways that can happen. Is someone trying to limit the information that I am receiving or is someone trying to augment the information that I'm receiving so that it sways me or persuades my thinking? Is someone trying to control my thoughts through implicit or explicit means? and is someone trying to control my emotions similarly?

And I like, again, like I look at what happened through COVID through a similar lens. Yeah. So the cult and there's another interesting thing that I again mentioned in the book that I found in my research here is that ironically, people who think that they are not subject to cult influence are most likely subject to cult influence. the more you think you can't be persuaded by a cult leader, the more likely you are to be. And so I recommend a healthy dose of skepticism at all times. Question everything.

Like, don't believe what I'm, don't just because I'm saying it, don't believe it. Test it. I'm a human being. I have built an organization and it needs to stay under constant scrutiny, as do I, because power is. is addictive. It's intoxicating.

And so there are, there will absolutely be psychedelic cult leaders that come out. But this is where it's up to us. We've got to stop putting the power in the hands of someone else. This is the, it's the whole lesson that I think we're learning in breaking away from the traditional church models and slowly breaking away from this medical, this scientism.

perspective that we are coming to a point where we are going to hopefully, hopefully, this is, this is the evolved human, is that we're thinking for ourselves. We're not just believing it. We don't even believe what we think necessarily. We're constantly in question of the information that we are receiving, the information that we're exploring to never, maybe not never, but to very seldomly ever land on a, this is what it is. This is what I think it is. From the moment you've done that,

then like you've killed it. You've killed whatever it is that you're exploring. Like this whole, like, like, I have to caveat, you know, say this a little bit of a caveat. Like Robin Carthart Harris has done incredible work. He's an incredible psychedelic researcher, and I'm so grateful for what he and others like him have done.

And his book that's coming out next year, that has already pre-sold over a thousand copies, it is called how psychedelics work. Like, we don't even know how the brain works. We do not even understand how gravity, how the mind, how reality works. And you're going to tell me, so maybe his title is a little intentionally polarizing like mine is,

but I kind of doubt that coming out of this, you know, materialist scientific view. You could just, the title could, be exploring how psychedelics work, and all of a sudden we've opened up to curiosity and to the possibility that we don't really know right now how they work. And so that's just the perspective that I really tried to apply in my own work, that I tried to apply when I'm sitting with someone or when I'm eating mushrooms, first thing I say to myself when I'm about to eat those mushrooms is I have no idea what's getting ready

to happen. Yeah. I'm always a bit fearful, man. Oh my God. More than a bit fearful. Yeah. You know, on the topic of. Robert Harris like, I remember

this is a while back. Someone had, there was an exchange between him and I don't have the information in front of me, but someone had mentioned something to him about a paper they wrote. And he just excoriated it. Just wrecked it, you know? And then the person that was

telling him, like, well, what about this? And Robert Carter says, well, admittedly, I never read your paper. But he had, you know, he had written like this three paragraphs just telling this person exactly why they're wrong and how they don't know anything. And then in the next sentence, like, well, actually, I didn't read it. Well.

You know, like, for me, I'm like, oh, look at this guy. Look at this guy, you know. It's interesting. Are these people actually taking psychedelics? You know, I don't think, Danny Goler. You know, Danny Goler has worked. That guy. I love that guy, man.

Oh, my God. I've never seen anyone who approaches the psychedelic experience. So much rigor, right? Yeah. And is able to come back and relate those experiences in such a profound and comprehensive way. I have so much respect for real researchers, for people, you know, and again, I'm not saying that these people are not, quote, real researchers, car heart and all. But like, it's, if you're not researching psychedelics with your own mind and body and

experience, then you're not actually researching psychedelics. Right. And like one or two doses or, I mean, honestly God, I don't think until I had like 50 doses of mushrooms that I had any idea what I was getting myself into. And I still like, I don't know what's coming. I approach it with respect and fear. The level of certainty with which some people talk about it is fucking mind blowing. Like here, it's this receptor to this and here's what's happening. You don't know.

Well, really, most of the seroton receptors are not in the brain anyway. Like, what the fuck? Like, it's like, I love it. I love you and thank you. And like, this is just such a small slice of the pie. Right. And this is where like the quantum biology, like, so, um, are you familiar with Rupert Sheldrake and his?

Of course. Morphic Fields. Yeah. I have this strong suspicion based on a lot of different phenomenology that I could point out, but I won't take the time to do it here, that, um, that we're looking at this completely backwards, that the psychedelic experience does not work from the brain chemistry, the biochemistry out, right? Life itself does not function in the, like, the past moving forward. There is that. That is a piece of it. And maybe it's like perfectly, you know, equally spread out.

But also, what's happening, I believe, is that the future is pulling us forward, that our bio-electromagnetic field, right, is coming in at us. Like there's, so are you familiar with the stories? And I've seen this and experienced it too many times. I know it's a reality that can happen where the shaman supposedly, like, or I hate that word, but the practitioner can purge for someone that they're working with. Have you heard of this? Yeah.

Perch for your family. Yeah, or like directly. Like Maria Sabina has this quote where she said, if the person that she's helping or supporting doesn't vomit out the sickness, then she has to vomit it out for them. Okay? I have seen this time and time again. There's two different ways that I've seen this play out and I've experienced it myself.

And I'm only just kind of starting to talk about this stuff publicly because it's not something that you really want to be, I don't, definitely not bragging about. but like there's um it can it can get a little i don't know there definitely can become an ego developed around this where you can learn to absolutely pull the stuck energy off of someone and purge that out yourself i've seen it over and over okay that then there is also the opportunity where you can actually push into someone else and make them purge, cause them to purge out. I worked with this lady once from Australia.

She was an amazing human being, biologist, had been to a ton of trauma. She came on a retreat and she was the most untrusting person I ever encountered. It took her the entire week to finally like start to open up. And when the retreat was over, she was like, she was like loading up to get on the bus to go back to the airport. like three hours away from the retreat center. And she was like, Eric, I don't think I can go home. I'm not done. I didn't come all this way to just like kind of crack open a little bit.

Can I stay for another retreat? And I was like, well, I don't want to make a rash decision. So like, if you will take this bus back to Montego Bay three hours, if you get to Montego Bay and you're like, no, I want to take another three hour bus ride back to Eric. then we'll do it. And so she took off, she came back. And on the, she was so, she was just so closed up and didn't trust anybody. And, you know, we slowly built this trust over the week.

And on the last dose, she asked me to dose with her and everybody, you know, had a big group and I dosed with her. And in the, in the midst of it, you know, she was on the ground and I'm sitting there with her just kind of like, what is, what, what's the, what is this? What's stuck? What is here? I closed my eyes and I saw her as an infant. And she was like, in real time, she was laying on her back and she was like kind of gasping and gagging. And I saw her as this infant who had been left in her crib by her mother and was choking on her own spit up or vomit. And, you know, I don't ever think like, oh, my vision is correct. I'm just like, okay, that's interesting that I'm seeing this.

And so by this point, I had learned how to kind of help pull this energy off. And so I kind of went into my process and I was like pulling stuff off of her and purging it out. And she could feel it. And she's like, oh, thank you, Eric, thank you. And so I'm going to this process. And then because my role is to always be a mentor, not a, not someone's crutch, right, as I was there with her, We got to a point of stability where I felt like, okay, she can take this. And I turned it around.

And I started moving energy towards her. And then she started doing her own purging. And then like she looked at me like, holy shit. I understand what's going on. And I kind of nodded at that. Right? And then I like open my field back up. And she like sends to me and I go through this purging again.

and she's looking at me like, oh, my God, this is real. And so I'm just like, all right, back at you and sent it back to her. And she's then like purging again, right? So we went through this process for probably 45 minutes to an hour that was very real, very experienced between us. And it was completely non-physical turned into the physical, right? So my belief, and again, like there's a whole lot of, there's a whole lot of that I don't understand here. But my current model for this is that we are these quantum computers that store all of this information from this life and possibly past lives in our oric field. And that when we consume the mushrooms, maybe it does start from a neurological basis.

But I've also experienced, maybe you've seen this where the trip starts before you ever eat the mushrooms. Have you ever seen that happen? Of course. Right? So if that's happening, then tell me where does that begin? Where is the source of this transmutation that occurs? Where is the source of this phenomenon? It's not solely in the neurochemistry or the body.

There is something that's happening in our field. And when you can get into this practice, this is where I started to understand this capacity for purging for others, is when particularly at night, dosing with other people, what I started to do was, like, everybody would dose, including me, and I would take off and go to my, like, a little spot where I would let it come on. And I always feel it in the air around me, and then I feel it on my skin. It's like, okay, here we are. And then I, like, start to move back into the group of people, and I'll go stand by somebody. and I can feel how different I feel standing next to this person

as opposed to how I feel standing next to this person as opposed to how I feel standing by myself. And so that was this kind of experiential research into this bio-electromagnetic field that is who we are. Like our physical being, again, more Ruf-Sheldrake and the morphogenic field, right, is that the field forms before the physical. So we're looking at it backwards.

We're thinking that the past is moving forward. We're thinking that we see causation in reverse, when it's actually the non-physical is primary. The thing that we can't see is the most real thing that there is. And what we do see is like lag time, representation of what's happening in the non-physical, if that makes any sense whatsoever. Yeah.

I think you, at the height of a psychedelic trip, like you are experiencing a way bigger slice of awareness than you are in your regular waking moments, everybody has their own barometer or their own temperature of what they can experience in awareness or whatever. But I think that maybe that's, part of the process of psychedelics is the evolution of awareness.

And what you described about being able to see those fields in people and to move them around, like maybe that is the evolution of the human being. Maybe that's what we're supposed to do. Maybe we've forgotten that. Or maybe this is a new thing that we're experiencing in the Western world. Chi Gong is the practice. So, like, there were things that started to happen to my physical body and my field of awareness that, were very troubling to me.

I didn't know what to make it. Of course. And I'm like, oh, am I losing my mind? Right, right. So I started to seek out other disciplines, other techniques, again, that have been able to access the same information. And Qigong is kind of the most accessible example of that. And like, Chi Gong, like, people see Qigong and they're like, oh, you're moving your arm. It's like, it is so deep.

Cheong is the deepest martial art that there is, because. it is martial arts of the energetic field. Right. And so, like, some of the stuff that I started to experience, which was just unclassified by Western medicine or psychology, I found, like, one-to-one comparisons in, I have the book right here somewhere. It's called Healing Light of the Dow by Montaacchia. Yeah, the healing.

awaken healing energy through the Dow. And this is like a level five manual for quantum meditation. And it described these things that I was experiencing. And I was like, oh, thank God. Okay. I'm not going crazy. But it did mean that I needed to integrate some practices that could help me really ground these experiences in a lived reality.

because once you start to experience yourself as an interdimensional being that can, like, bilocate and, you know, what manifest material from non-material, like, it can be really easy to get on an ego trip. It can get really easy to, like, lose touch with reality. And so I got really close, man. There were some times where I was significantly untethered. So I never talk about this work as if there aren't risk. There are absolutely risks to this work. The risks are not what we normally understand as risk, though. Yeah.

It's interesting you bring that up. I had gotten into a heated debate with some people about informed consent about some people that had went to a retreat in South America. And they were obviously worried and concerned and rightfully sell about like what. was in the cup. What is this? You know? And I get it. I understand informed consent, but my argument is that there's no informed consent for existential risk. Like, you went down there. Yes, you had an event that was horrible. Got it. But that's the existential risk. And like, you can't take that out of there. And people, especially in this clinical model now, it's like, I want to know what's in it. I want to know your recipe. Like, you're way off the path. Like,

you're here for this. Like, first off, how did you research this person? Like, did you do any research? Did you talk to one person? Like, maybe you should have done more research before you went down and talked to, you know, Moon Panther. Like, that's probably, you know what I mean? Like, who is this person?

And like, but people come out of there with, you know, horrible things happen to them. Some people come back and they're a radically different person. And the family that they love, guess what? This is a different person now. And there's existential risk that happens with these giant doses that I don't think people are, that you can take into account for. You know, like even the person taking it, like the previous version of you did not consent to being changed, but now you're changed. Now what the fuck happens. Yeah.

No, it's, you know what I mean? That is a very real conversation. You know, it's one of the, it's one of the great regrets that I have about the, the, the model that I start. established in Jamaica. And again, it's not to criticize anybody or whatever's going on down there. But if I had it to do it over again, which I'm doing it totally differently now, I would never create this model of escalating doses for John Hugh Public. Like most people 100% come back very quickly.

The vast majority, I've only seen probably two to four people who had a month-long disassociative experience after psychedelic work. And most of those people were not high doses. I can think of two out of the four right now on the top of my head that were low doses who were very spiritually open and they had that realization about being God and it lasted for a month, right? And that presents significant challenges for the families and the communities, the people around those people and the people themselves.

And what we now practice and employ is a much more moderate approach where, you know, I suggest people work with like, you know, three grams, maybe five grams for a solid year before they start going up to like eight, 10 gram doses. Even myself, like people take for granted. They hear me talking about the personal work that I do. And, you know, it's hard to contextualize all the time. But, like, I spent, I spent 10 years doing no more than three grams, no more than four times a year. You know, like, I was really working up. And then when I got into the space where, okay, I can push this a little further. I started pushing it further gradually, you know, and then there were times where I finally ultimately realize, like,

whoa, okay, we stretched the rubber band a little too far. Right? The dose that I just had two weeks ago was the first dose that I've had in a year. And I took an intentional year off. I took a nine-grant dose of my birthday last year. And it was incredible, great insights. And it's like, okay, let's go for a year without and see what happens. And then I took seven grams two weeks ago.

Wasn't your birthday two weeks ago? Yeah. So I was like birthday doses, yeah. Happy birthday, by the way. Yeah, thanks. And there was real value there. I probably won't wait that long again. I'll probably like every three to six months at this point.

But there were many years like where I was dosing too much. I mean, in Jamaica when I was doing that work down there, I was dosing three times, three to six times a month while managing groups of 15 people plus seven employees, you know. And I did it. I did it well, but it stretched the rubber band too far, you know. Yeah. So there is risk for sure. Let me jump. I got some people chime in and over here.

Cool. I don't know we're up. Yeah. Desiree says, you say the psychedelic golden age wasn't lost. It was stolen. Who stole it? Hmm. Who stole it? Yeah.

Well, I don't really see Gordon Watson and Albert Hoffman as the heroes that a lot of people do, right? my perspective is that it was stolen by the medical pharmaceutical world. Albert Hoffman was, you know, Sandos pharmaceuticals. He's the first person to synthesize psilocybin. And while there was some value there, I'm not saying that it was completely without value, what they really ultimately robbed us of was this spiritual. spiritual connection and perspective. You know,

Wasson talked about seeing palaces and all these crazy, beautiful things and how this was going to be so great for mental health and all that. But it was devoid of the spirit. It was devoid of the true history. I mean, even Watson said toward the end of his life,

like he exposed a secret that had been hidden for thousands of years and that maybe it was the end of the secret because of his exposure of it. So Watson made it. $60,000 for that article that he wrote in Time magazine, right? Maria Sabina died of malnutrition. Her child murdered and her home burned.

Watson and Hoffman made regular visits back and forth to Sabina for years, and they brought her tobacco, they brought her trinkets. Meanwhile, she died of malnutrition. So I think that the sacredness, the true sacredness, not the lip service sake. Like everybody wants to pay lip service to the indigenous and to the people who carried these medicines forward. But it's just lip service if we're not continuing to learn from their teachings.

I'm not saying that they're infallible. Everyone is. But I believe wholeheartedly that the rich spiritual experience and relations and relationship with these little saints. You know, like we treat them like they are a material object when they are a living organism that is far older and far wiser than we are. And we talk about psilocybin like it's just any other thing. Mushrooms talk to me.

I have had so many experiences where I am during wild psilocybin season here in Kentucky. I'm driving down the road and they're like, Eric, pull over, pull over, pull over, pull over. And I pull over. I'm like, oh, really? And I walk across the field and there they are, where they wouldn't be expectedly to be. And so I think that that is strictly out of this relationship

that I have built with them. I refuse to look at the mushroom as just a material object. I have grown them and lived with them and I understand them as who is it that Jesse Michael's guy, I think, was on Joe Rogan recently. I've only seen a clip of it on social medias, but he talks about this theory that McKenna used to say that basically, in short, that mushrooms are intergalactic zip files. Right. You consume them and you download all this information that they have been collecting over eons. I think there's a real truth to that.

So I think that's what has been robbed. What they have been robbed of, what's been robbed from us is this sacred relationship with the mystery that mushrooms represent. Yeah, I saw that clip. It was interesting. And he's quoting Francis Cricks, panespermia. Mm-hmm. And if form follows function, right, that's generally accepted. Form follows function.

Then why is it that the mushroom spore is designed to? to survive the vacuum and radiation of space. Is it so that it can hang out here on Earth? Doesn't seem likely to me. Yeah. Yeah, I, my experience is that it, it's all those things. It's such an interaction with the mystery. That's the best way to put it.

And like, there is incredible knowledge in there that you find out, you know, the man, it's, I don't think it's new knowledge. I think it's just knowledge we're rediscovering. Maybe we're at a point in time. Maybe that's maybe, maybe all of it. The lab, the psilocybin, like everything coming to a head right now is necessary for us to move forward and understand more of the mystery. I don't, I don't like have a general perspective that things are wrong. Like even like war and things that I don't want.

Like there are, there are like, I hesitate to use the word, but there are like, I mean, this old Epstein thing, like there's some real fucking evil on this planet. That's a reality. Okay. And I was in this meditation last night where I again realized that all the things that I perceive as against me are actually working for me. It may be the long view, right? It may be lifetimes. It may be like evolution is a long, slow, difficult slog.

right and so one of the most powerful awareness is that the mushroom has brought to me is that everything that has happened to me

has actually happened for me and that can be experienced on the macrocosmic as well if if the Holocaust happened so that we could slowly learn

to never um I mean, not just exterminated people, but to never other a people because of their whatever spiritual persuasion or ethnic persuasion, then like it's a net positive. No part of me thinks that we should have had. Like, I want to see war stop. I want to see people getting along. I want to see, I just want to, this planet has such a capacity for peace and abundance. and I believe that's our true nature.

It's kind of like the conversation you and I are having before we recorded. Like we're being presented with the opposites so that we can understand who we really are. Yeah. How else could you see it? That's the only way. I mean, there's definitely the way to look at it.

Like, this sucks and it's wrong. Most people, that's how I'm looking at it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It sucks. It should change, right? Well, it will never change until we accept that it is what it is. And this is a lesson that I've learned

in my personal growth. I tried to quit smoking for years. I tried to, you know, all these behavioral changes that never changed until I just accepted myself as I was. It's like, no, you know what? I love smoking weed. I love it. I love smoking weed.

And so I gave myself after like 10 years of trying to like moderate my relationship with weed, I could. And I'd wake up and I was hitting bongs first thing all day long, you know, and I'd keep trying to like tell myself, Eric, you got to stop, you got to stop. And I could never stop. And then I realized, like, this shaming and guilting of myself is just perpetuating it. So I was like, you know what? I love weed.

I'm going to smoke and eat all the weed I want, and I'm just going to give myself permission. And I did for a month. I just gorged on weed last year or two years ago in August. And then on September 1st, I woke up and I, like, went to go eat my weed. And I was like, huh, I don't even. want this. And for a year, I didn't have any weed. I didn't even want, I was just like, huh, this is weird. Like, once I gave myself permission to do the thing, I stopped feeling like I had to do it. And I think that's, I think that there is an enormous lesson there for us globally, which is not

like, you know, indulge in murder. But the more we judge something, the more it, We are confronted with it. I mean, look at Trump. Look at, the only reason we have Trump as a president is because so many people fucking hated him so much. It's not because people loved him so much. It's because people hated him so much and they brought so much energy and attention to him. But now it's like inevitable. Of course he's going to be the president because this is what people were constantly focusing on.

Yeah. What you focus on is where you go. It's exactly, exactly. you. Who else I got over here? I've got Betsy. What's up? Betsy's coming from Oceansides. Thanks for being here, Betsy. She says, what does medicine understand about psychedelics that spirituality doesn't? And what does spirituality understand that medicine can't measure? Oh, that's an incredible good question. Because I do think that there's value and there are things that we can explore through the medical material world. It's really, really helpful. I personally think it's amazing learning how these compounds interact with our physiology and our brain, right? Like those neural scans and what we see of a brain under the influence of psilocybin is fascinating. Like there's so much beauty and value there. I don't know like that I can specifically say these are the things that science understands

about psychedelics. I think one of the interesting things that's recently come out is the for women the influence of estrogen on the psilocybin experience. Have you seen some of that? Only, only like abstracts. Yeah, I haven't read tons of, I read one article on it, but it's pretty fascinating how our, what are they called, hormones interact with our neurochemistry and how that can be interfaced with a psychedelic.

So I think there's a ton of really valuable information that is being and can be and will be discovered through the clinical exploration of psychedelics. My supposition is that they are secondary to the spiritual experience and exploration, right? That we've got it flipped. We put the medical model above when it's actually subordinate to the spiritual model.

And I think that's true because the, Some of the phenomena and the experiences that we encounter in the psychedelic space actually changes our lives, right? Like, understanding how your estrogen levels or your medications interact with psilocybin can influence the dosing and how you approach the experience. But the experience that you have, it's what's going to change your life. So when I encounter any number of these stories of beings or clairvoyancy or this experience that I had two weeks ago of just absolute holographic relationship with the universe, right? I don't know that some of this stuff, science will never explain. There's this whole thing that I've been dealing with for the last two years that I won't get into. But like in short, and here's where my credibility completely goes out the window.

Let's hear it. But I mean, in short, I have been, I have been like gifted material objects from non-material beings. Like that's, it is a, it is, I have approached this with enormous skepticism and disbelief. I have explored this and tried to extinguish every doubt, and I have no doubt in my mind that there are two material objects that I'm looking at right now that were given to me by specific non-material beings who have been documented through history. Science, the medical world will probably never be able to explain that, And that is like, I don't care a lot for possessions, but this, these two things are my absolute most cherished possessions because of that.

All right. So like medical world's going to have a hard time pinning that one down. Can you show them to us? I could. I don't know that. Maybe you can explain it. It would take a long. All right.

The situation is that. I'm having a hard. time like like like they gave you like yeah if they gave you a material object yeah what is it um well i've talked about this one publicly a couple of times so i'll i'll mention it here um it's one one is a crystal skull that um it was handed to me by a human but years ago the process of this conversation began where eventually it was revealed to me that this would be gifted to me, right? And then many months, nearly two years later, an individual, the day after I had a mushroom experience that was predicted three years ago, I had three years ago, the last

ceremony or last session in Jamaica, it was told to me that when I had my next solo dose, it was going to be a big, big deal. So I just kind of sat with that, like, okay, whatever. I don't believe what I think, right? And then maybe like, I don't know, like six months before I had that solo dose in 2023. So 2020 was the last dose in Jamaica, 23, March 2020, was my first solo dose back in the States, six months before March, as I was meditating, I heard this voice that says, you're going to be given a crystal skull. You're going to be gifted a crystal skull, is what it said. And I was like, eh, don't believe what I think, right? And so I'll go forward, kind of forget about that. Three months, just six months later, I go and have this solo dose

that is one of the most profound, this being entered my space, who was, was more powerful than anything that I've ever encountered. There was this whole interaction where I tested it and like it was clear like, okay, your boss here. All right, whatever you. And so I didn't know what to make of it. I came out of the experience the next day and a friend of mine from Colorado messages me and he's like, hey, man, you're not going to believe this.

But I was in a meditation last night and this being who was the same one that I had met in my experience the night before. said, I have to send you this crystal skull. And so he sends me this crystal skull, and it is exceedingly unique. And then there have been other occurrences where this being, where I've been in ceremony with someone and they channeled this being, and it spoke, shared, it never spoke. It kind of took over the vessel.

and communicated in different ways for several hours. And then another year later, when there was a very powerful astrological event, there was this three days of some very, very powerful astrology where this second gift was given to me, which I can talk about it. It's an auraboris. So, you know, the orbores, the snake.

Of course. So this being that spoke to me also has an Egyptian history and an Egyptian persona. And the day after the eclipse last year and the day before Saturn and Neptune met in Ares for the first time in 9,000 years, I came down into my studio here and my snakes had shed. and I've been keeping snakes for years. I've hunted and all that. And one of the skins was an oarboris. And when I say like an oarboris, I don't mean like the tail was touching the mouth.

I mean like the tail is six or eight inches down inside the throat of the other stuff. Like there's no, I do not. I've looked and looked and looked. I've never found anything like this. I've never seen anything like this. it seems to me physiologically impossible. It looks as if it was directly inserted. So does that mean that like some non-physical being

appeared before me and like transmitted something from thin air? No, that's not it. And I don't, I don't, you know, that's not how things work, right? But through the ongoing assessment of this communication and my own skepticism and third parties, like this, particularly this guy saying like, yo, bro, this is going to sound crazy, but it's being said to send you this skull, right?

I'm like, what? And then, so, and people can doubt that. And it's totally fine. I don't, I'm not saying it in any kind of brag way. I don't, you know, I don't eagerly share it. Right. But I also think that there is value in sharing it, because it's important that we wake up to the reality that this is not primarily a physical world.

The physical world is the expression, manifestation, the lower condensation of the higher vibrational, what we understand as non-physical world. Yeah. Dude, thanks for sharing that, man. That's an awesome, it's awesome to hear it, man. I appreciate it. Who else I got over here? This one's coming from Ranga,

Ranga, Patamanabon, my friend from Canada. He says, can you create accountability without recreating the very bureaucracy you're trying to escape? Oh, I love it, I love it. I love the hard questions. I love the hard. Right?

Yeah. You know, this is why we, in our organization, we practice a peer support model, right? I may be the founding minister, so to speak, church. I may be the president of the organization, right? But I'm accountable to everybody else, just like everybody else is accountable to each other. And this is why I feel like there should not

be psychedelic experts. There should just be people who are exploring this space together and who are able to call each other out and or call each other in, as it's often been saying. Now, there is something that occurs and something that I've seen a lot in the space that we're creating. is that sometimes people want to call other people out while not acknowledging their own shadow. And so they'll be like, you know, you did this, you're bad, and then they leave, right? That is not community. That is not accountability. We stick together.

It's just like the trip. That's my only rule in ceremony. Don't leave. We're all in this together. If we all stay together through this process, we will get through it, no matter what it looks like. I've seen this time and time again. If we just stick together, we'll get out the other side of this, and we'll be better off for it. And the ceremony space is just a microcosm of the microcosm.

So in community, we have this tendency, especially now since we have really been, we've lost the meaning of what community is. We think that community is something that we can bounce into and be like, oh, this is cool, love and light. And then the shadow shows up. And you're like, oh, you guys suck. I'm out of here, right? That's not how real community and real accountability. works. And so what happened with the churches is they built these hierarchical structures where you've got people behind closed doors who have the blanket authority to dictate to others, their connection

to the mystery, how they engage with it, how they, the rules and all that they build around that. Meanwhile, they're off doing whatever they want to do behind their closed doors. If we're all in the same shared space, if I fuck up like I will, then you're going to see that. And you're going to say, hey, bro, like, is this really how you want to be living? And if I say, yes, this is what I want to do.

And it's like harmful, then you get to leave. But hopefully, what we see so far is the people that really want to grow and improve and be better versions of themselves and create better communities for this world are like, no, I messed up. And I need some help.

I need some community. I need some support. And so it's a long hill we've got to climb. There's no doubt. We have been, we have seen the example of hierarchical dogma of authority and like authority for authority's sake. Right. And I really think that those days are coming to a close.

Again, I think like I kind of think that this administration that we're seeing, I mean, who knows where the country goes after this. but I think that what we're seeing right now is this big ugly pimple that is trying to release itself and hopefully bring some relief to the rest of the body, as it were. I love that question, though, and it's a really important one to address these, you know, the spiritual communities because of how we have, what we have learned about authority and leadership, there is a real potential for some bad actors, and it requires shared accountability through peer support

and as much as little as hierarchy as is possible. Yeah, it's a great answer. I'm hopeful that we are going to see that release. It's up to us. Yeah, agreed. We often say, like, well, if the leaders do, if they do the thing that they're supposed to do, like, stop giving our power away.

This is also the thing with the medical psychedelic. It's like, stop giving authority of your mind, of your consciousness over to someone who is probably not even exploring their own. It doesn't know you. That's another thing about community. When I think about community, I think about a long-term relationship with people. Exactly. And who would you rather go and talk about personal issues with? Or who would you rather go and talk about personal issues with?

Or who would you rather go and explore things you're vulnerable with? Someone who has a title that doesn't know you that you're paying money to to get a result? Or someone that you've known for a long time that may have gone through something similar that actually cares about you being a positive person in their relationship and in their world? I was 19 years old. My parents divorced in a very traumatic way. I moved up here to the city to be with my girlfriend. She dumped me.

Everything went to shit in about three. months, right? And so I went to a psychiatrist. I went for a 45-minute session as an 18-year-old kid, and he gave me Zoloft. Immediately. He's like, well, try this, right? Like, I needed exactly what you're talking about. Right. This might be like, dude, this sucks. You're going to a really fucking hard time right now. Would you like me to just listen? Would you like, you know, and instead, I got, here, dampen your system so that you don't feel anything. I'm the authority. I've got the pen and pad.

Yeah. I think that's what's sacred is the relationship. A hundred, that. And that again, back to that question of what was robbed from us? Was the relationship with the sacred, the relationship with the mushroom. Even all the like the cultivation hype, I do not, I do not love the hyping. up of like penis envy give me the strongest mushroom i just want the strongest mushroom i want the wild mushroom i want the mushroom that talks to me when i'm driving down the road or i want just like

the mushroom that i cultivate and i have a relationship with and i watch its cycle and it doesn't look like some you know weird aberration like oh my god it's the weirdest mushroom this must be the coolest mushroom like i don't i'm not i'm not like i'm not like i'm not like you know i'm not Like, you do your thing, folks. I'm not like against it. But, you know, again, the traditional wisdom around mushrooms in particular is that, in at least the, the tradition that we know the most of coming out of Pohaka is that virgin children were supposed to be the ones who harvested the sacrament. Because mushrooms are really good at soaking up energy. Like we were talking about the energy of money before we hopped on here.

Yeah. What's the energy of a mushroom that is built and designed to be the most bang for the buck? This is the mushroom that on the black market, everybody's going to say, yeah, I got fucked up. Like, that's not the energy that I want in my sacred experience. I want the energy of, we're in a relationship together. You are a wise teacher. You have been here for millennia. You have traveled through space and time to be here right now with me.

What can you teach me? and what can I bring to you? Like, it's not just what the mushroom can, we can extract from the mushroom experience. What do we bring to this? What is the information that we're bringing into this collective cosmic computer that we are? It's just as important as what we want to get out of the experience.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's such an interesting time. Eric Osborne, I walked you right up here to your 1030. man. I know. Wow. We really went at it, didn't we? I know. And we're just getting warmed up, so we'll have to be, uh, we'll continue the conversation for sure. But before we end today's session, man, can you tell people more about where people can find you, what you have coming up, the new book and what you're excited about. Man, I'm excited about life. I'm excited about so much. I am very excited about the book, the psychedelic reformation. We are reforming church and we are reforming the, the, the psychedelic world, both at the same time. time, right? We get to create our new understanding of religious or spiritual communities, and we get to really update our understanding of the mushroom or psychedelics generally. If anybody's interested in the community that we're building, it is a nationwide community. We have lots of virtual and in-person events. We've got another ceremony, we do monthly ceremonies, mostly camping stuff, because, again, I want this to be accessible. All of our ceremonies are donation-based membership. is $35 a month and that, you know, you get a ton of access to all different kinds of programs and virtual events.

That's sanctuary with a pee, not per sanctuary, sanctuary with a pee. Anyway, my wife's, my wife was like, you can't call it sanctuary with a pee. People are going to say p sanctuary. I'm like, baby, nobody says psilocybin. Sure enough, say p sanctuary. So anyway, sanctuary. with dot org is the website there. I've got a personal YouTube channel,

Ericzosborn.com, where I do kind of like weekly, like talking head type stuff. I used to do a lot of interviews like this, and I just kind of feel like this is a little of an edge for me to explore. And yeah, I'm on TikTok with that same account,

Eric S. Osborne. I do, I do offer private mentorship with a 12-week program, but that's, that comes with a significant, price tag because it is like very personal mentorship but i can i can only feel good about doing that because we offer this community model that is very accessible what is by far the most accessible model in the country and i'm so grateful to be able to do that fantastic ladies and gentlemen

go down to the show notes check out we put all the links down there and eric hang out briefly afterwards to everybody that hung out and participated today and is watching this i hope you have a beautiful day. That's all we got. Thank you.