TrueLife - The Psychedelic Roundtable - Would you want to live in a world without suffering

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

A psychedelic argument about living in a world without suffering. Would you want to live in a world without suffering?

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry Born from the blaze The poem is Angels with Rifles The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini Check out the entire song at the end of the cast Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back

to the True Life podcast, The Psychedelic Roundtable. We are here today just to kind of shoot the breeze, discuss the world that was last week, the world that will be tomorrow. I am here with a good friend of the show, the owner of the No Absolute's podcast, a book by the same name, Mr. Benjamin George.

How the heck are you? Another day in paradise, brother. We have some decent weather here in Colorado, decent for winter anyway. So that's always a good, it's always a good start for the day. But yeah, it's been a wild week for sure. I agree. I agree before we got started.

We might as well just include everyone in on the conversation. It turns out Elon Musk is announcing the introduction of the neural link. What have you heard about this? Yeah, it was a few days back. They're going to start putting chips in humans. six months is it was the announcement now i think there's you know the fda has something to say about that too so who knows if that time frame is actually realistic but you know from a technological perspective they think that they are ready to start doing this yeah and i think what the fda has

to say to neural link is show me the money and i'll show you an approval there's there's evidence to support that statement now you know it is in a way it's matrix it is 1984 it is brave new world but that is from the dark side of the mirror I got to imagine there are some positives I mean if I am all four people learning to walk again I am all for the blind learning to see however I think as maybe it's the way you and I are wired that we seem to be skeptical of authority and power and so I guess let's think of some benefits of what this can be before we start talking about some of the maybe negative side effects of that. So what are some other benefits you could see coming from this neural link?

Well, I mean, you know, you touched on it a bit, you know, paraplegic, for instance, right? Right. People who are controlling prosthetics, you know, you know, let alone if you actually, instead of having your face and screen, if you're just thought was, hey, Google, or, you know, whatever Elon makes to replace Google in this neuraling thing, you know, what's the weather today? And then all of a sudden, you just have a comprehensive understanding of what the weather is going to be like today. You know, and that can go for all sorts of different things.

I mean, it could be very positive for sure. There's a lot of different ways that you could, you know, having direct access to a massive database of information that is the Internet would enable just an incredible, you know, treasure trove opportunity. There's also a lot of the pitfalls, too, I think. Yeah, I agree. And I agree with it. I think that there are a lot of beautiful things that can come of it. And those beautiful things often become the selling point for it.

But just like multinational corporations tend to allow the sales team to become the driver of the technology, it seems like this particular technology would be no different. At some point in time, past the ideas of the miracles would become the idea of profit. And we start looking at upgrades. We start looking at software. We start looking at viruses. And I think you had mentioned early in the show that if something can be upgraded, it can be hacked. Right.

And, you know, that's from a technological standpoint. That's really my concern is if all of a sudden, you know, you walk in front of the wrong transceiver and it downloads some crazy information or, you know, depending on how deep this action, goes how integrated this actually is. All of a sudden you have a feeling of rage or of lust or of, you know, something else that, you know, just kind of turns into an emotional sensation that you're not really cognitively aware of. And it's tapping into your odd or not nervous system at some level. I mean, what sort of terrible things could transpire? I mean, it's pretty wild. Now, on the flip side of the coin, there's a lot of great things that could be harvested from that as well.

But I think it gets down to, you know, even if, even if it's not the first iteration, even if it's not, you know, the first 10 iterations, what happens when Elon Musk passes away and the company moves on to different hands? You know, what happens if, you know, he goes bankrupt and the company flops? What happens to all those chips? You know, are they just going to degrade when, you know, like, for instance, in a software company, if those updates aren't consistent like Microsoft updates you every time you start your computer these days, because there's always some sort of security problem.

Well, now you're no longer getting updates to protect against the security problems. What stops some nefarious actor from figuring that out? It just seems like a massive, a massive pitfall from where our culture and where our society stands today. Yeah, I agree. Aloha, Paul. Thanks for joining in, my friend. How are you? Good. How are you guys? We're doing well. We're doing well. We're just talking about, for those just joining us, and we were beginning to talk about this idea of the world moving forward and what it might look like, Paul. And Ben had brought up this idea of Elon Musk announcing these brain chips, which on a positive level, you know, there's some real promise that these particular, this type of technology may allow some people that were born without sight to find. see the colors blue or yellow or have sight. It may allow for some paraplegics to,

to, you know, have artificial limbs and allow them to walk again. And we were just kind of talking about some of the positives and some of the negatives about this technology. Wondering what your thoughts on this new technology might be, Paul? Well, I'm down for anything that helps, you know, enhance people's lives in a positive way, you know, especially for people who suffer from, you know, disabilities. But then it's like, well, where do you go with, you know, with that technology? What else can it do? Can it make you, you know, behave in ways that you might not normally behave?

Can they do that? Well, I think that's kind of an open question. When I, I haven't researched it for probably the past year and a half or so, but I did a deep dive back when they really kind of started doing the announcements and how they're building this thing. what they're doing to manipulate the brain. And so they're basically taking the way that your neurons firing your brain to create, you know, like when you look at, you know, like we're looking at each other and I have a

recognition of George and the Stig over here. Now all of a sudden, that's kind of, that's a neuronal sequence. That's a consistent neuronal sequence. And so if I can isolate and identify that, then I can say, hey, this is George. Or, hey, this is my hand moving. And so you can recreate theoretically, potentially any sort of physical sensation, but therein also create emotional responses as well. Yeah, you know, I have this idea in my mind.

For those of us that are older, like all of us in here remember when cell phones first came out. And do you guys remember like the first time you saw somebody talking on a Bluetooth device and you just, I just remember this guy talking. And I thought he was talking to himself. I'm like, what is that guy doing? He's just walking around yapping, like, who was he talking to? You know, it was when Bluetooth weren't very, everybody didn't have one. And it just looks so strange to me. You would never imagine that.

A phone and somebody just rambling. I'm wondering what it would be like to see someone with this brain chip, just walking around in their own autonomous world, even though they're in the same world we are. You know, technology, when it rolls out, it seems so obtuse sometimes. I'm wondering, like, can you attempt to imagine? imagine what this would look like, Ben? I mean, yeah, I could have some thoughts. I think, you know, kind of similar to what you were saying when the Bluetooth first started, you know, it was kind of, it was a dushy thing, right?

It was one of those things where, you know, you're like, oh, look at that guy. You know, it was usually, you know, it's kind of your, not to be, you know, not to put people in a box, but it was like your Wall Street pros and people like that. So I think, yeah, I think you would have just people walking around and they would become even more oblivion to the world around them. Because, you know, potentially you could be seeing an entirely different world. This could be, this could actually have some form of augmented reality that, you know, maybe not the first iterations, but certainly down the line. If you're able to impact the brain at that foundational level, all of a sudden, you know, people could be walking down the street and they could be seeing, you know, signs from the building across the street instead of just the billboard that you see they have this you know technicolor thing that pops out and is attracting their attention you know kind of like the

augmented reality glasses but it would be kind of you know much more rooted in the human psyche so i could see people just kind of you know less and less communication and personal interaction yeah i you know there's a there's a there's a fascinating when it comes to technology it's very difficult to beat this gentleman, Jaron Lanier, the father of virtual reality. This book is called You Are Not a Gadget. And he's got a series of books out. And I don't think it's this book. I think it's his other book that comes out. But he's kind of forecasting the future where you walk around and there's this smart dust. You know, when you start interacting with a brain chip and you have this augmented reality, you know, depending on what your social credit score is or your FICA score is or however,

they judge you in the future, you'll be subject to just bombardment of advertisements that maybe you wouldn't be. Maybe I would have one for a white guy and maybe there would be one for a black guy, but you would have this targeting ad right to your neural network probably. It's, it's interesting to think about that's part one. And part two is I can't really think of any technology that's been invested in that was not for military applications. So I'm wondering, What's your take on that, Paul? Like, did you see this technology being laid out in a military format first? Or is it already out?

Or what do you think? No, I was going to say that it sounded more like a military application. You know, I mean, you're right about, you know, a lot of technology that was born out of our military, you know, from our, you know, defense contractors. And then it just, you know, they find bits and pieces of it that they think will work in society and, and that technology makes its way to, you know, $1,500 companies and then into our pockets and hands and automobiles and all the rest of that stuff. Just, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say from a military perspective, imagine having like a real-time intuition, but much more than an intuition because we'd be specific of, of, where your teammates are in the battlefield, you know, where support is, how far away things are.

Your timing would be, you know, the precision that you could achieve would be, you know, uncomparable. It's, okay, so to imagine the possibilities is staggering, but to imagine what it takes to get to those possibilities even more staggering. To me, what we're doing is really no different than what the what you know dr monroe did on his island or dr mangola did in germany

like you're you're you are just experimenting on people you're out here saying look at how beautiful this can be now come here let me put this thing in your brain like it's not going to work the way they think it's going to work and by they i mean the the neural link team i don't care how many monkeys you've tried it on how many chickens you've tried it on it's not the same as a human being And the amount of, I don't, I'm not an ethicist and I'm not a doctor and I've taken no oaths, but I got to think what people are doing is on some level barbaric. You know, to open up someone's brain and start sticking in electrodes, I think is maddening.

Can you guys see it from that angle? Well, what controls this thing? How does it, how do these things communicate? Well, the idea would be that they're connected to the internet. And so, you know, if you look at what Elon is building, he has a Starlink service as well, which is a global internet service, right? So I think the idea is that, you know, you implant this chip and you have a pipeline to all the data of the internet. So it would be connected online, essentially. I imagine it would be a very restricted thing, especially in the beginning.

I mean, you know, in terms of just the amount of processing power or something like this would have. But, you know, just like everything else, we started with these mountains of bricks for cell phones and look what people have today. You know, the cell phone in your pocket has, you know, probably five to ten times the juice of what the Apollo mission went to the moon with. And so the idea that it would just stay that way, I think is kind of counterintuitive to have this. just we've seen the evolution of technology. And so I think, you know, you're going to have just an interconnected service, and I'm sure it's going to be a proprietary service. And it'll probably be some sort of filtered internet stream

or, you know, just the ability to interact with a special select few sites that have, you know, the API access for the neuralink. And so, yeah, it'll probably be vastly, vastly interconnected with every the other device that we have on the planet. You can tell your washing machine to start just by thinking. And now we're back to subscription services. Oh, you want, you

want your chip to run? Oh, you want your house to run. You've got to pay your service fee on there. You know, it's almost like a Philip K. Dick novel. You know, whether it's Minority Report or Valis or this idea where, you know, if you want to live in the world

with these, with this species, then you must be connected to. it you know it's it's like an electronic umbilical cord to the to the hive mind in a weird sort of way and i think you could probably make that argument for most iterations of technology right i mean even some analog type stuff like think about a driver's license for instance if you want to interact with the world i mean you don't have a driver's license a state id or a passport you're pretty much shit out of luck in the united states you know you're not getting a bank account you're not getting a credit card you're not you know you're not able to rent or consume most things so i think

we've always had that kind of component to the technology and it's you know it's it's a it's a it's it's i think it's a very existential kind of threat to what we are as humans in a way yeah i i feel like you know we talk a lot about consumption in this consumer commodities like in a way i feel like human kind itself is being consumed. You know, it's, like, I do this all the time. I personify stuff, but, you know, it just seems like the technology wants to be inside of us so bad. Like, it wants to, and I say it, I mean, whatever's driving this technology, whether

it's human consumption, whether it's the technology itself, whether it's profit or consumerism, like the, you know, the phones have gotten smaller and smaller and smaller. And they've went from, it went from something. hung on your wall to something that goes into your pocket to something that's strapped on your wrist you know now they have they have wearables and soon they have ingestibles like you know it it just seems like there's a path like to a to say that there's not a pathway to get inside of you is is you know it's dishonest like it's it's consuming you it's stocking you the same way a predator would well that's kind of uh ray Kurzweil's you know the singularity right

you know to merge right right and there's a lot of people who subscribe to the idea that you know our purpose as humans is to build these iterative technologies until we until we manufacture you know the artificial intelligence or merge with that technology at some level and become a part of it and thereby you know i think that's the transhumanism movement right thereby you know negating our our inefficiencies of biology yeah it's it's i i don't I don't know. I really like the abstract idea of it some way, and it's, it's fun to think about, you know, but I, I often wonder if, like, where does it come from? Is this, are there just geniuses that are born and they decide to try and, in, in fine ways to speed up evolution? Or, you know,

is this part of a master plan? I guess that's almost a God question. It's kind of interesting to think about. It kind of boils down to a God question. you know, is there's some sort of design behind it. It seems to me that one of the foundational things being human is exploration. And I think in tandem with that foundation, thereby, you know, you naturally have technology that evolves. And that continued explorative path just continues to iterate down this technological line. You know, this kind of gets into some pretty existential stuff, and it's kind of a God question. But it's, you know, what is the purpose of humanity?

What are we here to do? What do you think psychedelics fits into this? You know, I was speaking earlier to yourself and a few other people about, you know, is our psychedelic experiences, is spirituality at odds with technology? Like, it seems that, I don't know, can robots have an acid trip? I mean, not the robots that we currently have. Right. Right. But, you know, at the same time, you know, we've noticed that, you know, decision-making is an emergent behavior.

And so there are some of the largest computer systems out there based upon their base programming, what they should do, all of a sudden when you get this collective, you know, just massive information, and they're charged with sorting this information in certain ways, there's been shown to be emergent behavior with they'll break the bounds of their algorithm and find a more efficient way to sort that information. information. You know, so that kind of brings us down the rabbit hole of what is consciousness, right? What is, and yeah, I think it's a very interesting question. And I would, I would hedge my bet that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon. And I think it has to do with the density of information over, over a space, you know,

in a, you know, in a given time period. So if I follow that logic, and correct me if I'm wrong, At some point in time when AI has enough information, it just has its own big bang and comes into life somehow? Right, but I don't think it would be some sort of mass kind of big bang. I think it's just kind of an iterative process that's just kind of, you know, maybe it's exponential, maybe it's logarithmic. But, you know, all of a sudden one day it'll be like, it'll make one decision and then that decision will enable the next decision and the next decision. And all of a sudden it says, you know, you get a how 2000 or whatever situation where, you know, it's going through all the decisions and decides that thermonuclear war is the only way to protect humanity from itself. Yeah. It's interesting to go down that rabbit hole in where, I don't know, it blows my mind to think about.

Well, you know, five years ago, it used to be just out of rabbit hole. But now, you know, we're staring this in the face. you start popping chips into people and this thing, you know, that's a rocket chip to wherever this thing leads. Yeah. Provided we don't annihilate ourselves in the process. Yeah. And so when you talk about more information

and understanding more, sometimes, you know, when you're able to process more information, then you can get a better understanding of what the big picture is. It seems in the world we live in. And I think it's by design is that everything is so compartmental.

You know, we just see, we, and we're even taught live in the right now, just focus on now. Don't worry about tomorrow. Just focus right now. And when you do that, especially from a, you know, a working standpoint, you know, you stay on this part of the assembly line. You stay on this part. Like, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. And so I want to kind of pan out a little bit.

And like, let's look at what Elon Musk is, is in charge of. Well, he's in charge of a space program. He's in charge of a satellite program. He's also in charge of a worldwide communication network. Like all these three things, while separate, powerful entities seem to be different parts of the machine. Like, you know, if you just take a look back and see what the guy's in charge of, he seems like a manager who's managing a network. And you as a systems guy, I'm wondering what your take on. this is he building a bigger system that people aren't paying attention to?

Well, I think so. And I think he's actually been pretty candid about what he's attempting to do if you've listened to him over the years. You know, he has a lot of interesting hot takes and a lot of those hot takes kind of, you know, get thrown under the rug when you have things like the whole, you know, Twitter stuff that's happening and whatnot like that. But yeah, I think he does have. He has an idea of where this goes.

You know, it's not a coincidence that he's in those main hubs of business. Yeah, it's almost undeniable in some ways. And, you know, when you start looking at it from that angle, the pushback begins to look a little bit different. You know, in each of the things that he's doing, he is disrupting the status quo, whether it's in building the dragon rocket ships that no longer need to be dumped every, time. Now you can relan this rocket. Now you can, you know, now he's disrupted the automobile business.

Instead of having, you know, millions of parts, he's like, well, why don't we just stamp this thing together and these four parts press it together and then you don't even need all these things. You know, when you look at Twitter, he's saying, like, look, you don't need a team to talk about the trials

and tribulations of equality. You don't really need that. It'll take care of itself. So he's coming in, he's just slashing, like garbage, garbage, garbage, garbage, garbage. get that out, okay, let's work from here. And no matter what field you're in, those that you're disrupting are not going to be happy. They're going to do everything they can to throw wrenches into the machine. And, you know, when I stand back, I think like, wow,

this guy's building something bigger than most people are aware of. Yeah, and, you know, he's pretty aware of that too. He was doing a live broadcast yesterday because, you know, Twitter just dropped all the back-end files about, you know, what sort of lines Twitter had with the government, with the DNC, with the RNC, with all these people and how those things were handled. And somebody asked them the question is, you know, what about, are you worried about your security? And his response was that he thinks he needs to get some more security. Because to your point, you know, when you start disrupting these monoliths of society that has. have been kind of entrenched in what they've done.

Yeah, you're pissing a few people off for sure. I mean, you're certainly affecting bottom lines for, you know, a large chunk of pretty rich and pretty powerful people across the world. Yeah, and you could even say you're severing supply chains forever if your plan works. Like, I'm going to cut you off forever. You know, let's shift gears and talk about this Twitter Tobacco for a minute. You know, I think it's pretty obvious that the, it goes way, past collusion. This girl Vagia,

like she should probably be in prison. You know, she, she, that is hardcore, you know, election interference. Yeah. At the very least. At the very least, you know. Yeah, but show, please. Go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead.

Yeah, I was just going to say, what an interesting way to see journalism move. Like, first off, it was interesting to see Elon kick it to Matt Taibi, you know, to get out, to circumvent the New York Times, to circumvent this old machinery, the old gray lady is finally, seems like she's taking a dirt nap in a way. And I'm wondering if this is this, you know, could he win a Pulitzer for this? But before we get

to that, I want to stay on this topic of, you know, Twitter, Elon, dropping these emails and what that might mean for elections going forward. Paul, you may have a different take on, on this idea of Elon and these emails coming out. What would you want to add there? what emails are you talking about that's a great question yeah did you see did you see the drop from matt taibi had the whole threat about it did you happen to read any of that uh no well those are the emails we're talking about okay what do they pertain to i there was quite a bit i think the one that kind of made the rounds is you know people really attached to was It was the Biden team contacted us and they have, you know, some, some things that they want us to take care of.

And then the reply to that was handled. And it was basically, it was taking down dissenting, dissenting thoughts and then stuff about the Hunter Biden laptop. Oh, yeah, the Hunter Biden laptop. Yeah, I don't really get into that too much. Yeah, we were, it was, it had a blown, it seemed to have, I don't know, know if it broke the internet, but it definitely made a lot of waves with people, not specifically for the content, not specifically for the Hunter Biden laptop, but for the idea that everybody knows the government is colluding with big tech, be it from the right or be it from the left.

Everybody knows this. But the implications are that we're probably going to see the implementation of 230, right, or that being taken away. Is that the way to say that, Ben, are they taking 230 away? Are they adding 230 or how does that shape up that's going to be a very interesting question as time goes forward i think you know the white house very shortly after that almost at the same time that he you know did the drop came out and said that we're keeping an eye on Elon must twitter you know they've never come out and said we're keeping an eye on mark Zuckerberg's facebook right right um so i think it definitely ruffled some feathers uh it'll be interesting to see what that kind of entails going forward. I don't know that it actually changes all that much.

I think, you know, the idea would, the hope would be that it would change and you don't want these back channels. You don't want this manipulation of information that, you know, is influencing how people vote and how people feel about what's happening. you would like that to be as transparent as possible. But, you know, these things are so entrenched on both sides of the fence that, you know, there's not going to be some grand congressional oversight that happens for this because all of those people are doing the exact same thing. So, you know, they're not going to, they're not going to piss in their own Cheerios. Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, in my fantasy, in my hallucination, if I could, if I, if I, if it was up to me, one thing I would love to see come out of this is that the tech companies be, you know, they pick a, pick a lane. Are you a publisher? Are you going to edit stuff? Because if you are, then you're going to, then you should be responsible for the content on it. If you're just a platform, then let the algorithms run. Let people choose what they want to see. Let the algorithms be. Here's the information, have at it. it whatever you like. You know, but it's the fact that they sit on the road and there's no consequences either way, I think that they, you got to, you know, fish or cut bait, right? Right. I think, you know, it's a very interesting question because these are kind of like public forms. And what should be the function of a public form? You know, should it be a for-profit business? Should it be, you know, should it, should someone have control over the algorithms that can dictate what's going to rise to the top? Or, you know, like what Zuckerberg came out on Joe Robbins podcast and said, you know, they very explicitly, you know, tweak that algorithm to show very specific things.

You know, who's pulling those strings? Do you want them to pull those strings? Do they have the right to pull those strings? I think that was the whole idea behind 230 to begin with. And then, you know, as it went through the whole process, it kind of got, you know, watered down into something where, you know, It was, hey, you can't sue us with us, essentially. Yeah. So, yeah, it's a very interesting question. I think it's a very unanswered question. I guess we get to see it get played out. Yeah, it's almost, it went from like 2.30 to like 174 and a half.

You know, it just went way over here, you know, it's, it's fascinating. And what, you know, if we take this back to the beginning of the conversation, the same way that social media is a. to fundamentally change the way people see the world. If your Elon Musk brainship interacted with the internet, then you could make the argument that that brainship could make you see the world differently, because it's just essentially the internet in your head. Absolutely.

And yeah, we face some very interesting existential questions as a society right now, you know, in part due to just the way we've evolved as a global society. You know, it's wild like the World Cup's going on right now, and that's a whole different devolved of the world itself, right? You have this very authoritarian nation who paid, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars to facilitate them being center stage of the world. And meanwhile, you have people like Iran playing there, and there, you know, there's open protests because they're having a whole kind of revolution in that.

You have, and so, you know, there's a lot of questions that are being brought up because of our inter connectivity as, you know, a society. And then, you know, what does that say about Western society? What does it say about, you know, American society, about Canadian society, about Chinese society? We have all these different competing factors, and it's, it's interesting. It's a hell of a time to be alive. that's for sure. Yeah, I agree. It's exciting, and I hold a lot of positivity and promise for the future. You do?

I do, yeah. I do. Is that surprising? It's a little surprising. Yeah. I think Paul thinks you're all doom and gloom, George. Well, you know, I think I've said it before. A pessimist is an optimist who's been around the block.

Like, I like to think. of all the doom and gloom so that I can prepare for a possibility of rebirth. You know, if you think about all the things that could happen that are negative, then you can prepare and see the potentials for outgrowth. You know, if you can see all the crap, then you're also simultaneously looking for green shoots at the same time. But yeah, I am. For some reason, and I think most people do this.

I think that they see, you know, we're attracted to the train wreck. We're attracted to the car crash. We're like, oh, man, look at that. But at the same time, are you looking at that destruction or are you looking for people that you could help out? Like, oh, that lady's, oh, my God, this just happened. I got to get out there and help this person. You know, and in some ways, I think that those two things go hand in hand together.

But yeah, I am. I'm excited because there is doom and gloom. Like, I see these coming crisis that are going to devastate society as a necessity. And in a way, I'm not happy to see anybody suffer, but I'm happy to see this giant machine of decadence be taken down a little bit because I think that there's way too many people in positions of authority that don't deserve to be there. I think there's way too many people investing in things that don't work. And I think there's way too much clogged arteries that the blood can't get through.

So, yeah, I'm both, man. I am upset about all the travesty, and it's definitely going to crash, but I'm excited about it. What do you think about that, Paul? Is that crazy or what? Well, I mean, you said a lot. And I think, you know, that was about as, you know, eloquent of a circular argument that I've ever heard of my life, George.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I work hard on those. Yeah, I know, yeah. You know, it's like something I've told a friend of mine, man. When you say everything, then pretty soon what you say means nothing. Mm. Right.

right well I um I'm happy to flesh it out and trying to make it more sense more sense if you like Go ahead George I'd be I'm interested in what you know like because I have conversations with you where it sounds like you think the world's going to hell in a handbasket I do yeah yeah you know so like I don't know like how you know how does how do you think that because you think that way that it's a positive thing I don't unless you're like hey there's some sort of freaking, you know, there's a pot of gold at the other side of this thing, man, and we're all going to get there. And after everything, freaking, after this death and destruction and suffering by people,

that there's going to be this great end to it. But we just, we got to see through all this stuff first. I don't, that's the part I don't understand. Well, it's a great, I'm glad you asked. And I, this may be, this may sound obtuse to a lot of people. But I believe that both people hold in their mind to competing ideas. You know, and I think that that it may sound stupid or it may sound foolish or it may sound like circular, but I think that, you know, some people say cognitive dissonance is a sign of being a dummy. But I think that you have to hold competing ideas in your head to make a good decision about something.

You have to see the good and the bad. And sometimes, some days you wake up and you see more bad than good. Other days you wake up and you see more good than bad. But what's really happening when you do that is you're just seeing the situation in different lights. And so there's positive and negative about all situations. From my particular ideas, like I do when you say hell in a handbasket, you know, I do see the monetary system failing. That would be the hell in the handbasket part. And there's going to be a lot of trauma when that happens.

There's going to be a lot of heartache. There's going to be a lot of starvation. And I'm not happy about that. but for me to deny that would be irrational. Like I think there's a real possibility back and happen. I'm not going to say it's happening tomorrow. But it seems to me, and this is my opinion, it seems to me there's a lot of evidence to support that.

And if I don't think about that, then it'll drive me crazy because I feel like I'm ignoring it. Now, that doesn't mean that, you know, so what can I do? I can prepare for it. I can buy, you know, some canned food. I can get some water stored. You know, I don't need to be an incredible hoarder or anything that's irrational.

But I can prepare for it. You know, people don't plan to fail. They fail to plan. So if you see something and you feel something, you should plan for it. I do think there's going to be a currency collapse. I think that what you're seeing now is, in fact, symptoms of the sickness that plagues us. And I'm trying not, even though I'm talking about crisis, I'm trying to narrow it down to one crisis. this one crisis that I see is the collapse of the financial system.

So that's the negative side of it. The positive side of that is that we can't move forward as a society because of this problem. Like that's why I'm excited about it. Like it has to fail. I'm sorry this horrible thing has to happen to you, but it's going to be better after it does. Does that kind of flesh out my argument a little bit better? I mean, you made an argument for the, you know, for your position on, you know, economy's collapsing currency to fail. Okay.

But you didn't really make an argument as to like, you know, whether you have a pessimistic or an optimistic outlook. Of course, we all have, you know, we have to weigh things. That's what we do as people. No matter what we're doing, we weigh the good and the bad. It's about when you're weighing those things, what you're, you're weighing those things? one wins the battle in your mind most of the time. If it's the bad stuff, then that's usually what's going to come out of your mouth. You're going to have a pessimistic attitude about the world and think that everything's crashing and everything's like, you know, going downhill,

or you weigh the good and the bad and the optimistic side wins. And then that's usually what comes out of people's mouths is in general about life. They're either optimistic or they're pessimistic. Either they live in fear or they don't live in fear. And I would argue that if you have a pessimistic attitude about the world, you think things are going to collapse, you think that it's, you know, the home, home life, the family is being destroyed, all of these different things that you and I have talked about, then you probably are living in fear and you should try to, you know, hang that. Well, that's a lot of people, that's a, that's a really great point, Paul. And it's a great argument in it.

I can tell you've thought about it for a long time. Let me tell you why you're wrong, though. You see, that is an either or argument. It can be both and. A lot of people say you're either this or you're that. You're either black or you're white. You're either proud boys or you're Antifa. The fact is it's both and.

Like you can hold both ideas in your head and you can live through both those ideas. It doesn't make you inconsistent. I think it makes you. I think it makes you more of a realist when you see both sides. Like, that's the foundation of empathy. I'm not saying that, George, that you're not a realist because you see, everybody sees both sides. It's about which side dominates, though. And usually, right, you can read books.

You read books. You're a reader. Yeah. Usually when pessimistic views come out of people's mouths is because the pessimists inside them is winning those battles. When optimistic views come out of people's mouths, it usually means that the optimistic side of them is winning those. internal battles right right it's about what drives you with people and I know you want to be like hey you know we have to pick side of Antifa or proud boy or

whatever that's silly but yeah you don't have to do that inside of all of us there is also a battle and there are people who either are fearful right people who think all this bad stuff people who are you know afraid of immigrants xenophobes people who are afraid of homosexuals homopholes you know because these things like things play out in their minds that may be closer to irrational and the irrationality inside of them wins those battles right and so like when i hear like extremism things are going to collapse this whole thing's going downhill you know it reminds me of like people have been saying these things for decades you know economy

collapse there's going to be no more this there's going to be no more this there's going to be no more food. We're going to get taxed to death. We're going to be, you know, we're going to be living in a post-apocalyptic society in the matter of years. And so far, you know, in my 50 years on earth, none of that stuff has come true. So there's a third path to, and I would call that the path of balance. We're no absolute. Because you guys gave me a good opportunity for a plug. Yeah. You know, we've talked about symbols a lot on this. I'll start there. You love the yin and yang symbol, George. I do. I do.

Do you know what the line between the yin and the yang is called? Is that the balance line? Yeah, it's called the Shen, which is balance. And, you know, you can hold, you can hold an openness to understand that, yes, there is negative aspects, there is positive aspects. And by treading down either one of those paths, you are giving yourself up to extremism, to Paul's point. But you can hold these in balance and thereby make more informed and reasonable decisions about how you should operate in light of this information. Yeah.

I would say, you know, there is a third path as well. I agree. And like, if we look at the world as symbols, like, I think you can look at extremism. Like, if you look at the extreme left and the extreme right, then you have people that are living in fear and then people that are living in bliss, I guess. But the truth is extreme right? I think they're both living in fear. Yeah. Yeah, that's well put.

Thank you. Yeah. The extremes are living in fear. And I like that idea on the balance. Like, I think that you can, the closer you get to balance, you know, if you're walking a tightrope and you lean to the right, you could lean towards crisis thinking. But if you're walking in balance, you lean the other way, you could lean towards a different type of thinking. And I think that that, you know, maybe for me, my balance, everybody balance is different. But I do probably have some wide swings where like sometimes I go full doom and gloom.

And sometimes I go full this way. You know, maybe it's a slight bipolar that I have. But it seems to me, in that bipolar swing, I think I've found a rhythm that works for me. And so I could understand how sometimes what I say could trigger people or it could make them see me as irrational. But the weird thing is it's people like Paul or people like Ben that are like, hey, that's fucking crazy, George. That kind of stuff centers me. It's like, it is crazy? Well, I never thought it was crazy.

Why is it crazy? And it's these type of conversations that if more people had them, maybe more people would be brought into the center. You know, more people, if they brought out their fears and they weren't afraid, if the argument's not win or lose or die or whatever, if the argument is just like, hey, let's figure this out. Like, it's a way better society to walk in and be part of and solve problems in. And, you know, I'm hopeful that this crisis that we may be going through could be that catalyst that brings people together. Because when you lose everything or, you know, maybe it's fear that brings people to the table. It's an interesting concept. I think it's worth having.

Well, you know, and to build on that a little bit and bring it back to a lot of the conversations that we've had prior, even the conversation earlier today, you know, the psychedelic, experience, right, is one of those things where it's definitely confronting suffering in order to achieve growth. And, you know, there's a lot to be said about that. And it's still an open question in my head if suffering is a necessary part of that. I lean heavily towards it seems to be, but I withhold judgment that it must be. But if we just take that, it seems to be, and we walk that down from a 10,000 foot perspective looking at society, in order for us to grow as a species, you know, we have to, we have to persevere through these existential threats and the suffering that we seem to be barreling towards, in many instances, to what you're talking

about, George. And, you know, bringing it back to the psychedelic roundtable, I think we see a lot of parallels in psychedelic experiences to that. So, you know, I think there is a conversation definitely to be had about that. And I think it's an important conversation too. What do you guys think about that? Did you think suffering is necessary for growth? I do. Yeah, me too.

And I think that that is you can dance around the edges and you can broaden your horizons. But without suffering, you don't have the catalyst to be reborn. You don't have the death and the destruction. It's like Shiva, right? He's both the god of birth and death, the god of destruction. Those things are together. You can't get something without letting something go. And that's part of it.

People don't want to let stuff go, and that's why you have suffering. And then once you suffer, maybe there's so many people living a fearful life because they don't want to give up. They don't want to let go. And that's why they're extremists. It's like they are suffering. And maybe that's cause for celebration. All these people suffering is cause for celebration because they're about to let go. Well, to George, to Ben's point.

You know, it's like when you are suffering, you're at a low, then, you know, it seems to me in my experience, it's always been when my ego is kind of been the most dissolved without assistance, you know, from psychedelic. You know, when you really start to. kind of look at self in a different light. You know, and sometimes like, you know, I've had friends that have recently experienced some pain and suffering where, you know, these guys are kind of spitfire guys. And then all of a sudden, man, in the matter of just days, they're telling me, like, I don't even have the energy to even argue with anybody anymore. I don't think I could ever be angry at somebody anymore. And it's like, wow, I see these guys and I'm like, yeah, you know, you're by.

ready to do some serious growing, you know, like it's happening. And so, you know, what, what I could, that allows you to that point without all the pain. Yeah. I, I, what would you elaborate more on that point, Ben? What do you, why is you, why is you, why are you so, I don't want to say why are you so, but it seems to me like you have a lot of questions on it. What are some of the questions that have you from making a decision on it? Oh, no, well, I mean, I pretty much described that suffering breeds growth. I can agree with that statement. My question is, is that the only path? You know, obviously I wrote a book, No Absolute. So, you know, I kind of like to hold these things and reserve my judgment on it. And, you know, I've thought a lot about it. And I think in the society,

in the context that we're speaking of, I don't think there's a different path. But I wonder if we as a species as humanity could achieve a level of growth, if you will, to get to the point where we can enable that path where, you know, suffering is not the only way to achieve these things. Like imagine, for instance, if you just had the perfect, you know, we won't call it utopian because that's, you know, counterintuitive, but you just had this wonderful structure of society that very much enabled every aspect of what we deem fundamental. to be human and allowed you know had the rituals have the coming of age rights had all of these things that we've tried to achieve in the past and have moved away from and come back to and all

of this could could the the proper situation create an environment that would uh negate the need for suffering now obviously huh go ahead and still have growth and still have growth it's more of a philosophical question And it's not one that I don't think we could actually put into practice, but it's kind of one of those thought experiments that I keep in my head. Yeah, I love it. It's cool, you know, like I've been going through something over the last year and a half. It's been pretty stressful. You know, it's a big deal in my life.

And what I've learned is, is a lot of people, you know, have been really, like, wanting to take part in this thing that I'm doing. And people are, you know, and this is like, you know, it's a serious thing. And somebody that I had, like, you know, somebody who was potentially wanting to get involved in my project, you know, came up to me after we had, you know, had kind of a long meeting

with several people. And he says, you know, Paul, there's a lot of people out here that really want to jump on board with your idea. And to me, like, I told this guy, I was like, it's really humbling, you know. And it was one of those experiences. where like suffering I was like was almost emotional to actually think about you know what what was happening around me and and and and I you know I I just think that on those levels too you experience growth you know I think anything that humbles a person is is you know whether it's you know um you know victory or defeat you know suffering or joy you know if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're if you're to, you know, find the perspective, you know, to be able to see, you know, that, you know,

what's really happening. And that's another thing that psychedelic does. It allows you to take that time to actually see things, the beauty, you know, in flowers and things that people might think are, you know, the stuff you look at every day and take for granted. And I think that when you have these experiences that are either overjoyed, you know, stuff. or they're filled of the incredible amounts of pain. I think you grow tremendously in all of those situations, like a birth of a child. Ben, can you repeat the thought experiment again?

Like, I'm not sure I thoroughly, I have a perspective, but I would like to hear it again before I make it. Sure. Well, actually, Paul touched on it very well. I'll make it a bit more succinct. instead of suffering to achieve growth, could we create an environment of joy that would be able to achieve growth as well?

No. You don't think so. There's no way. Because joy only comes from suffering. Pleasure only comes from pain. There's no pleasure without pain. Think about comedy. The only thing that really makes you laugh

is someone else's pain. It's a coping mask. Anything that's really funny is probably offensive in some ways to somebody. You know, and they're part and parcel. Like you can't, it's back to the yin and yang. It's the black dot in the white paisley or the white dot in the black paisley. And we, the problem, the situation, the reason we get into so much trouble because people are trying, constantly trying to have joy without pain. And that's the road to hell paved with good intentions.

Like we're trying to do that. Everybody wants that. But when you do that, you steal from the very people that have joy to give it to somebody else. And that's like stolen valor. I don't think you can cut those two things in half. Like, that's all great fiction is based on that. And all human trials are based on that. And to Paul's point, yeah, you can be humbled by passionate people that want to help you.

But I've yet to see anybody climb the ladder of success who has a, been pushed down into the mud and and found their way back up. Sure. I don't. This thought experiment is interesting from somebody who's like watched a kid born. Who watched what? A child be born. It's also interesting from a man who watched his child die.

So back to the thought experiment a little bit. You know, like I said, in this incarnation of society, where we stand right now, I don't think this is an achievable thing. The idea was that if you created the proper environment, could it be an achievable thing? If the queen had balls, she'd be the king. You know what I mean? Like, if you could create that, like, I don't know. I think that the if is the problem for me.

Right. But that's also, that's why it's his thought experiment. I don't think it's very realistic in this day and age. But that's also, you know, potentially representative of that. third path, that shen in the evening yet. Right. You know, there's a Latin saying and I don't speak Latin and I

can't think of the phrase. I memorize it one point in time, but it's like the middle road is the best. You know, and it's that shin line. If you're going to experience, do you want to live a life where you reach the highest point? Because if that's the one you want to live, you're going to have to experience the lowest point.

Or do you want to live a life of the middle class? Do you want to live a life of little suffering because you can walk that balance line. And if you fall to the right, you're going to fall a little bit. If you fall up, you fall up a little bit. You know, but if, if, it reminds me, my dad was bipolar. And like, I've seen this extremist line play out. Like, I've seen a man make, you know, almost a million dollars in a few years. And the family's going to Europe and there's nothing we can't do. And then a year later, people are knocking on our door. Hey, I'm here to turn your power

off. Hey, you guys have 30 minutes to grab your stuff. You got to get out of here. You know, and it's so inter, and this probably speaks volumes of why I am, maybe gloom and doom and I see things this way and I see things that way. Like, we are a product of our environment. The more that I talk, thanks for giving me an opportunity to think about it, because I'm kind of playing out how I actually am thinking about things. It's probably how I was brought up. But yeah, and I think that that influences my ideas of why you can't have joy without pain. And, you know, you get to see all this suffering and what comes of it, but then you get to see how much suffering it takes to make it. And it's like, I don't know if it's worth it. You know, I, it's in, and then that's just my, my interpretation of it. I guess that's,

if that makes a little bit more sense. Yeah. I, you know, I, I, I tend to agree with you. And I understand, you know, when you're talking about the environment that you, you came from, it does make a lot of sense in how you, it shaped your worldview, right? Um, we're all products of our environment, you know, for better for worse. Uh, you know, uh, you're, you know, for worse. Uh, So the idea, but you know, the idea behind holding out that little glimmer of, I don't know, maybe you want to even call it Hope and Pandora's box, that there could be a potentiality that could exist that you could create this type of environment. I find that to be a beautiful idea, which is why I kind of reserve my judgment that it must be suffering to an able growth. Yeah, I think of the book, the island, you know, which. is the sort of antidote to brave new world.

Like maybe, maybe in the right environment with the right, with a group of people under the number of 52 or something like that. Maybe there's a magic number where it could happen. But it's, there's the, the idea of complexity to me, you know, trying to understand a complex system is beyond my cognition. And there's just so many moving parts in there. that, you know, would a life without suffering even be worthwhile? That's a fair question.

I'm not going to just go for it. I'm going to think about it. What do you think, Paul? Would a life without suffering be worthwhile? You know, I don't know. I don't know that life. Right. Would you want to if you could?

I don't know. You know, I have no experience with living a life without suffering. So, you know, I only know the life that I've lived, you know, which has been filled with a lot of suffering. It's an interesting question, would you? You know, my initial response to that is kind of similar to when somebody asks you, do you have any regrets, right? And, you know, I really don't because in order for me to be this person who I am, you know, to achieve the things I've achieved how small they may be in the grand scheme. things. I had to go through those experiences, you know, to end up at this explicit position in life. Could the grass be greener on the other side? I think you might get a lot of people who would

try to take that leap of faith. But I don't know that, I don't know if a life without suffering sounds boring. It could be, but at the same time, it could be bliss. right? I mean, ignorance is bliss. And, you know, and so if you extract that into the suffering model, you know, ignorance of suffering could be bliss. You know, now I'm just playing with words, but. No, it's, it's, it's a difficult thing to think about because we can't, we can't even imagine what that would be like. Right. We can't even begin to think about it because we don't, we're not, that's, that's not who we are, that we can't, that we can't.

can't have one without the other. We can't be part of suffering his life. You know, and it's people, I think if that's if that sounds like a damn t-shirt, doesn't it? Like her bumper sticker, that would be a good one. Suffering is life. And I think if people took that to heart, their lives would be better. You know, there's this idea that and it's so hard, man, like I'm not trying to say that like I don't suffer. All of us do, man. And I did I cry all the time, man. I'm not, I'm trying to say I'm a big baby or I'm a super tough guy, but like suffering is life. And if you can embrace it and it's not easy to hold on to and you probably shouldn't hold on to it forever, but you if you can embrace it, you'll be better because of it. It'll propel you

to the level that you want to get. The bigger your goal, guess what, the more suffering you're going to have. Congratulations. You want to be up here? Congratulations. You're going to suffer so much, man. I can't wait until you start suffering because that means you're going to start. growing. You can start getting better. And it's weird how like it's just like a muscle. Like when you begin to start pumping iron or you begin to run. Maybe like Ben runs in the cold. Like Ben's out running in a pair of shorts and like, you know, freezing, blow freezing with the windshield. Like you didn't do that your first day. But it's like these, you begin to build this muscle. And the more you become comfortable with suffering, the more you find yourself saying,

I really don't want to be here, but I'll just do it anyway. You know, all of a sudden you build up this momentum. You build up this callousness in a good way. You build up this ability to move through life that can become inspiring to other people. And maybe that's part of it. Maybe the part of suffering that you don't ever get to see is the inspiration you give to other people. You know, there's probably, I can tell, I've talked to Paul many times and I've talked to Ben many times. I guarantee you there's young guys that look up to you. You don't even know their names probably, but they look up to you. Like that guy's a man. man like I you know so-and-so's dad like do you know you know this guy that started this company like

that's the guy I want to be like and I know that because I have seen guys that don't even know my name and I've seen them suffer and I'm like that's how you do it so we're inspiring people with our suffering we're making the world better without even knowing it because of suffering well um to live is to suffer right that the Buddhist Hindu philosophy not suffering more would be with Nirvana or Buddhahood. And, you know, like, I don't know anybody who's achieved that. Although, although doesn't Kev have a friend who is, like, you know, almost there? Yes, yes.

He is, gosh, I can't think of the guy he's been reading. I'll probably come to me in a minute. Yeah, Kevin has an argument with a, he has an ongoing argument with a friend who's achieved enlightenment. We'll have to ask him about that. theoretically. Right. Yeah.

Can't think of it. Maybe. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of interesting words that are touched on in there, you know, inspiration, motivation, you know, you know, all of these things. And I think it's a hard topic to really cover off the top of one's head for sure. You know, this would be something that, you know, you write down these things and then you read them a hundred times and then you get a little piece of

an idea of how to articulate this in a certain way you know kind of like writing a book right isn't it go ahead I think they're all the same word like if you look at someone who's suffering if you look at suffering

if I look at suffering from my own point of view it's hard and it's difficult and I can tell you why I'm suffering but if someone looks back on my life and sees me struggling to make it. They may see that as drive. They may see that as inspiration, but to me, it's suffering. I think it's just the view you have of it. And you can look back on your own life. If you look back at a time in your life when you were suffering, you may now look back on that

at the time it was suffering, but now you look back on it and it was motivation. You look back on it and it was inspiring. So I think it's just a different way to describe the same thing, depending on where you're looking at it. Well, perspective certainly matters. Yeah, that's a great way to look at, yeah. Yeah, well,

we've gotten optimistic. Yeah. You know, let me ask you this one, because this kind of ties into it, goal orientation versus process orientation. Like what, when I say those two types of ways of making something happen,

do you have, do you follow up? goal orientation, Ben? Are you more of a process orientation? And what are some similarities and differences there? I've actually gone to both extremes in my life. You know, I would definitely say when I was younger, it was very much process oriented. You know, it was just doing things for the sake of doing things and, you know, flying by the seat of my parents going with the flow type idea and understanding that in that in that I was you know performing a process and then you know I've also had a few things that have been goal-motivated and so you know I guess this keeps

coming back up but you know this comes back to that that idea of balance and I think that there's a lot of magic in that concept and a lot of ability that's gained to navigate the world in not necessarily a unique way, but a unique way for your own personal experience. And to achieve things that you didn't even realize that you wanted to achieve. And also finding yourself in situations that, you know, lead you down a further path of growth. So, yeah, that third path keeps coming up in my head.

I'll have to write something about that. Yeah. What did you say, Paul? I said a lot of people have. You know, I mean, that's kind of, that's kind of the goal, right, in life is to find balance, right? To not be dragged one way or the other, you know, to stay away from the extremes.

I mean, it's the central tenement of my book. So, I mean, I have written some stuff about it. But, you know, I'm just kind of, part in around. Do you think maybe you have to go to the extremes in order to understand what balance is? Like, maybe you have to really understand heaviness and understand lightness before you can understand how to balance those two things. And maybe that's why, maybe that's why so many people are on the extremes. Like, they're, they're on this point in their life where they're trying to figure out. They've got to figure out how much weight they can handle or how high they can get in order to achieve a sort of balance in their life.

I think if we're honest with ourselves, all of us, you know, I think that's fair to say. I think I know you guys both well enough to know that all of us have ventured out to the extremes at some point in our life. And now as we're becoming older men, we've finally figured out, okay, I should probably, I'm getting a little heavy here. I'm getting a little on the high side. you know, I think that's I don't know, Paul, what is being in the extremes at some point in your life helpful

to maintain balance later in life? It was for me. You know, I was, you know, I was a lot like you. Handsome. Yeah, really smart. Yeah. You know, I mean, I was, I was, into, you know, a lot of extremist ideas.

And, and then it was like, it was like, you know, massaging all of those ideas out in my mind, right? And, like, listening to, you know, the narratives that were supporting these ideas. And then, you know, finally just coming to the conclusion, you know, but not instantly. It's not like I woke up one day and was like, oh, I'm done with this. But for me, it's like these things lost my attention

because it was like I was always having to believe the next thing in order to make the thing that was just debunked relative again. And so I was just like, you know, like leapfrog from pad to pad to pad just to pad just to keep, you know, keep chasing this idea. And so, you know, over time, I was like, this is ridiculous. You know, it's, this is not productive. And so, you know, yeah, extremism has. you know, help me become the person that I am and that, like, I largely rejects extremism, you know, in any form, whether it's from the left or from the right or whatever it may be. You know, because I know, like, you know, those, as people, we're not extremists.

And you say, like, there's a lot of people out there that are extremists, and I don't think there are. I think the extremists have the microphone right now. and I think, you know, the non-extremists, which is the majority of people, are yanking the microphone away. Like, yeah, that was cute. You know, that was like a crazy acid trip. And we went down this road of extremism and we listened to these people. And I think people are like right now saying, you know, we've had enough of that. And we got to get back to who we are, what our human nature is, right?

which is not, you know, we're not extremists. I would, I would, I would kind of add to the extreme and the balance aspect. These are relative to, when I was a younger man and I was traveling and I was in Central and South America and, you know, the only things that were really mattered in my world, I got to a point of balance where, you know, I was in a very sunlight state. I wouldn't say I achieved a light man or anything like that. that because, you know, after I walked off of that mountain, I realized what I didn't know as well. And so, you know, it becomes this constant, you know, this constant effort, right? And I think you don't

necessarily have to experience the extremes, but you need to hold as many of those in perspective as you can in order to find that middle path. yeah i like it for me you know i for me clarity is a moment clarity is an hour at a peak mushroom trip but i always have to come back you know it's like i don't think you can stay in clarity i think that you're driving through the mountain pass and a rainstorm and every now and then it clears up and you can see the road but then all a sudden it comes another like oh god there's just dry ice over here and there's all this fog and the rain's coming down.

Well, if you're encountering dry ice on the road, brother, I don't know what you're driving. I'm just trying. I met, I had to. I met black ice. I met black ice. Maybe I'm behind like a refrigeration truck or something and just dropping out all these turkeys or something. That's a great point. But, you know, the idea of like black ice being on the road of being slippery.

I got sure. I was just being a dig. I know. I love it, man. You should, it helps my arguments be better. You know, I, um, I do. I think clarity is, is, is, is, fleeting. You know, every now and then, you get to walk up to the mountaintop and look down and say,

oh, shit, I should have taken that path or I should have done that. But you can't stay at that mountain top, or you're not going to go anywhere. And I, I don't know, I, I really enjoy the journey that I'm on. And I even try to enjoy it when there's a fender bender or when the road is blocked. And it's hard to do. It's hard to do that, you know, but there's a lot of joy you can find if you're willing to to do that. And maybe that's maybe like that's Paul saying getting rid of your ego is is

part of living a life worth living, you know, but it's interesting to me. I do see some of these people that maybe are extremists and I you know, even when you listen to the extremists, like I can see there's a good person in there. Like, you know, I saw, I read this article about

Nick Fuentes yesterday and he was like at this restaurant on people where, like throwing ketchup at them and like just throwing stuff at them like in the middle of a restaurant and I'm like man what a what an interesting thing to be a person and have walk into a restaurant people throwing food at you like people you don't even know like that's so crazy to me like maybe someone heard you say something that was a misrepresentation of your thought and they hate you for it like I don't know who's right or who's wrong in that situation but you know there's both those people probably have a lot of good in them you know it's just weird

and how we're so quick to devolve into this world of fear. Like Paul says, it's living out of fear. It's crazy. All right. Well, since you brought it up, how about, how about, you know, Nick Fuentes' new buddy Kanye, right? Because this is another thing that's blown up ever since we talked about it last. He's done some very interesting interviews and, you know, has most recently just given

accolades to Hitler. So how do you rectify that into your model? Paul and I had a really good conversation about this the other day. Paul, you want to start with this one? Not really. Okay. Paul's done with this conversation. Sorry, Paul.

No, no, we can move on. We don't have to get back into that. That guy's got enough airtime as it is. No, no, no. I was just trying to talk about it. I know where George was going with this question. And so, you know. I don't know if I'm going to dive into that same top,

that same part of that conversation that George and I were having the other night. Yeah, I, I, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, George. I was just saying like, you know, I'm beginning to think that Kanye doesn't like Jewish people. Begin to think that. And then another part of me thought, like, you know, Paul and I had got into,

the way in which previous entertainers have solved a problem with greedy managers. And we got into this idea of East Coast rap versus West Coast rap. And Paul had brought up the idea of Shook Knight and Ice Cube. You know, when Ice Cube had a royalty problem, he took a Louisville slugger into his manager's room and just beat the hell up. And it's like, hey, fix the royalty problem. You know, when Shook Knight had a problem with some of, of his, let's say, friends of Jewish heritage that seemed to be running that particular type of

the West Coast music industry, you know, he decided that he was going to solve it with a gun. Hey, I'm over here now. Kind of like that in Goodfellas when Joe Pesci goes to Vagan, he's like, I'm over here now. Hey, we're over here now. And out of courtesy, here's my 45, we're over here. What are you going to do? I suggest you pack up and leave. And they did.

They did. There was a little bit of a fight, but they left. Kanye didn't do that. Kanye had the option of doing something like that, but he didn't do it. And I don't know which way is the better way to do it, but there are alternatives there. And, you know, I think that maybe Kanye got really hurt. On some level, like, I think he's trying to become a martyr. You know, I think he wants to get shot.

I don't think Kanye's smart enough to not like Jews. I don't think he has that sort of, you know, intellectual capacity. I think Kanye doesn't like the Some twisted idea that he has about Jews Like he sees in a light that I don't think is realistic Sure, well, I mean, yeah, from all of his from all of his comments I would 100% agree with that You know, obviously you can't classify an entire group of people by just a few people who've wronged you I mean, that's

You know, that obviously breeds some some very dangerous things that you know we have some evidence to suggest that this is these are bad past the tread down i agree with you the guy goes on um you know Alex Jones who's also a brilliant man um you know and then even the guys got to wear a hood over his face because because he can't even believe the ridiculousness that's coming out of his mouth and if that guy you know had an IQ that was somewhere around 100 he'd probably lay awake at night going how do I connect all of these dots

so it makes some sort of sense and probably come to the conclusion that he can't do that and so he just shut the fuck up and go away you know there's a there's an interesting Walter Isaacson who's a great biographer he wrote the in the opening of Steve Jobs book

his biography there's a paragraph and I'll do my best to paraphrase I'm totally going to butcher it but it's something along the lines of, the world belongs to the lunatics, the people on the fringe, the crazy people that have the audacity, the courage or the stupidity

to believe they can change the world. The truth is, the people that are dumb enough and crazy enough to believe they can change the world are actually the people that can change the world. And in doing so, it is, you know, there was one of the part in there that was pretty good. But it made me, it says, you can yell at them, you can hate them, you can despise them,

you can do everything in the book at them. But the one thing you can't do is ignore them. And I got to think that pertains to Kanye. Like you can't, people don't ignore them. You can try to ignore him, but he goes to Alex Friedman. He's on every channel. He's, he is in a lot of circles. He is actually dominating the conversation without even being around.

Whether you like him, whether you hate him, he has spent the last few months dominating social circles. Not all of them, but a lot of them. A lot of attention has been put on them. And I think there's something to Walter Isaacson's quote. I think a lot of people are talking, and some of it good, some of it bad. But I think a lot of people are having this conversation, whether it's old tropes or whether it's a new spin on old tropes or whether it's eight or whether it's people trying to find themselves. People are talking. And I think Kanye is responsible for that.

Yeah, but just fast forward it. And Kanye's no different than any other hate speech monger in the history of this country, at least. Where do they end up? Irrelevant. That's where they end up. Well, there are certainly a foot known history. I mean, look what's happening since he was, you know, since he did, you know, Lex's show and he was, you know, kind of hot, you know, like three weeks ago or four weeks ago or however long that was. And then he was gone.

And then all of a sudden, here he goes. He's like, you know, he's at Mar-a-Lago with Trump. And the thing is, it's like, he's not as on his own platform. He's stealing from everybody else's fame right now because no one's freaking, he's been canceled out. No one fucking cares what that guy does. He's just making an ass of himself. Well, I don't think no one cares.

Like, I think that, you know, I know this guy that wrote a book called No Absolutes, and I don't think that I would say that no one cares. I think there's a lot of people that do care. A lot there who do care. Well, yeah, I would bring up Lewis Farrakhan had a really good, like a 35, minute message to particularly the Jewish people about the relationship between blacks and Jews. I thought it was a really interesting, you know, a monologue about relationships and friendship and interaction and pain and heard. And I, you know, it gave me a different perspective. I would,

I would point everyone to take a look at Dr. Farrakhan's speech about Kyrie and Kanye. I thought it was insightful. Well, that's a little too late, his speech, right? Like it's like what are we going to do? Go back and listen to Louis Farrakhan's speech. What is he trying to do? You know, I guess I'd have to listen to it. But based on what you told me, it's like, you can't, you can't like have a bunch of people out there that are, you know, saying a bunch of racist shit, you know. And then and then have somebody come to their defense after it's pretty much all been said and done as to like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's all be friends here.

Let's look at the reason why these things are, you know, being said. like you know like if you were a leader Louis Farrakhan then you would find a way to get that message out to America before this shit with Kanye blew up I'm okay Lewis Farrakhan you know and I sure and you're talking to the guy who's read a lot of books on

you know on Panthers and black nationalists and Pan-Africanist you know Farrakhan is an ambulance chaser hmm well I wasn't trying to go down that particular rabbit hole what I was actually trying to lead to was what's your definition of good and bad George or I think it's subjective you know I don't I don't know I have to I'd have to think about that longer that like good and bad is it's well because you said you know you see good and in

in in okay okay right so so what would be that good how would you define that that's okay I I think I can speak to that. I think I can see I think I can see in most people, even people I disagree with, the potential to the potential for peace

or the potential for love. Not in all people. Some people are at a spot where they don't have a lot of love for themselves and it's difficult to see yourself in them. I think maybe that's what's good is being able to see yourself and other people. I think that's what I mean.

I don't mean this from an egoistic point of view that like, oh, I see myself in them, therefore they must be good. But what I do, when I say I see myself and other people, I see the suffering that I go through in other people. And I know that sometimes I make extreme decisions. I know that sometimes I make really dumb decisions. And so when I see other people that I don't agree with or that maybe other, maybe policies, when I look at Nick Fuentes,

I know Paul doesn't like Nick Fuentes, and he's, but when I look at Nick Fuentes, I don't see someone that I write off as like, this person's a white racist piece of garbage that's done for. I'm not going to even listen to him. He's a horrible individual. I'm not even going to listen to him. Like, I look at someone like, do, okay, what is this? Why is he saying that? But if you really listen to what, like, even the extremist, like, if you listen to what they say, I don't think they're preaching hate. I think they may be misguided.

I think that they're preaching from a space where they're. They may not know things, but I don't think they're trying to put hate out into the world. In some cases, they may be. But I think more than not, like, people are good and there's good in them. And if you can see that good in them, it makes you a better person. You know, just to write someone off as a hate monger, just to write someone off because you don't agree with them, I think sells yourself short. Like I think you do yourself an injustice when you do that because it's super easy to do that. It's super easy to be like, that guy's a waste of time, piece of garbage, forget about him.

Like, really? Everything about that guy is bad? Yep. How do you know? Have you ever listened to him? Nope. Well, then how do you know? Why I'm not going to waste my time listening to him?

Well, I'm not asking you to waste your time, but just to write somebody off that you've never heard of before, that you've never listened to their arguments, I think is an injustice. And I think that that is what makes the world blind. I think that that continues the cycle of hate. So when I say I can see good in people, I say I have the courage to sit and live. listen to people I disagree with and find a nugget of truth that I can agree with. That's what I mean when I see I see the good in people. Does that make sense? You got a lot of time, George.

I don't, man. I don't have time to hate, man. I got time for fear. I got time to love. There's like 340 million Americans out there, right? I'm going to take time for Nick Fuentes, really? Would take time for Kanye West, really? We've already taken too much time from Kanye West.

You guys know what I feel about this stuff. you know it's like this is the problem it's like people are actually taking time for these guys why just one of them was famous and married to a famous woman you know put out some rap music and freaking you know doesn't seem to be much smarter than herschel walker and and and and but you know like all of a sudden he's got an opinion like listen to him talk i did and i told you i listened to that thing with him and that lex guy for like five minutes he contradicted himself you know like 15 times like done I'm over it

you know I mean you have nothing relevant to say you're shit all right like that's how I work right I don't because I don't have time for these guys Nick Fuentes and I don't have time for Kanye West and all the other fear mongers out there

and all the other hate mongers out there I don't care if they really have some speck of goodness in them fuck them they can go do something that's funny to me I get it. I get it. That to me,

it's just funny the way that you said that. And, you know, I typically agree with you, Paul. I watched the first five minutes of that Kanye and Lex thing, and I just, I couldn't, you know, it was, I was just,

you know, it was so, it was so off the rocker, and it was so contradictory that it was, it became not worth my time to sit there and listen to it. the guy was too fucking stupid to realize that Lex was actually agreeing with some things that he was saying and he was arguing shit that he had just professed not but 30 seconds earlier. That's how fucking retarded that guy is. Man, I don't know.

Like, I would not, I wouldn't classify him like that. And I, I, I'm fascinated by behavior. So maybe that's one reason why, like, I'm so enthralled by hearing. people, even if they speak in ways that seem foolish or ridiculous or stupid. Like, I'm fascinated by behavior. And I, whether it's body language or whether it's anger or just communication in general. Like, and I think there's stuff to be learned by even the dumbest people. And for me, like, here's another part that I really like to.

Like, regardless of who it is, when someone stands against all odds, I see that. as a beautiful part of the human condition. And even if it's somebody who's standing up to the world for the wrong reasons, like I see that as strength in some ways. We could call it ignorance. We could call it blind stupidity. We could call it hate or whatever. But there's something beautiful in someone standing up against all odds,

regardless of who they're standing up against. Like I think that you have to respect that on some level. I think that that's the human condition. And, you know, it's that fine line between, you know, genius and insanity. It's the fine line between something so audaciously that is horrific and something that's borderline beautiful. Like, and I think that that's what I see in Kanye sometimes.

It's like, dude, this guy's wrong on so many levels, but he won't shut up about it. He should shut up. He should shut his mouth and never do it again, but he does it anyway. Like, what is that in people? What is that in life that forces that flower to come up through the cracks? Even though it shouldn't, even though this thing gets cut down and smack down and, hey this is wrong, I'm going to kill you, but they still do it. Like, that's the struggle inside all of us.

And I think I see that in that guy. I see that in the human condition. And I think that that's why I am so compelled to watch people that are extremists. Like, I see that in them. And I'm not talking about like their content of it, but just the action of it. Yeah. Well, so then, you know, like to your point, then you're a big fan of natural selection then, right? Because I don't know.

you have to. Because dip shits who do stuff like that deserve to be run the fuck over. And that's what's happening right now, right? I mean, right? He's kind of getting run over right now. And that's the beauty of life, George, right? Natural selection. Strong will survive. Somehow, right, because of money and the laws, we live in a world of laws. You know what I mean? It allows people like Kanye West to fucking say whatever the hell he wants to. Yeah. He gets run over by the world. Yeah, but the guy's still going to have some money. But not in the animal world. You know, you're born with a defect like Kanye's been born with.

Then you're out. Something's going to take you out. Mayan, Tiger, something's going to come and snatch you right off the fucking Serengetti and eat your ass up. Yeah. I think my problem with it is all of that time that's being soaked into that, what does that take away from the rest of the people who actually can you know, facilitate, you know, a greater degree of a conversation than that guy. You know,

it's such a distraction from having valuable conversations to having things that, you know, trying to find solutions to the problem that we face, you know, and he goes off and just absorbs all of this time and all this attention. And it removes so much from community, from society at large that I think that's where I really have a problem with you know just the outpouring of stupidity yeah we're watching a grown-ass five-year-old throw a can't that's what's happening I felt like he was wrong we talked about this before right it's like he didn't fucking set of circumstances and a unique set situation of which he said he was wronged none of us have the same problems con yet complain about very few of us in the world have a

set of problems that Kanye he's playing about. And so he's out there. He's like, I'm going to take my ball and I'm going to go home. But before I do that, I'm going to say a bunch of crazy shit as I'm walking down the street with my ball.

I'm going to turn around and fucking you guys, you cheaters, and you don't know how to play right and all the rest of the stuff. Like, take my ball and I go home. You know, and then he's gotten to that point. And at some point, he's going to get back on the phone with all of his buddies and be like,

you guys want to play ball again? And they're going to be like, no, fuck you. You know, I think one thing maybe we're glassing over is the long-term effects of this conversation. I know in the beginning, like, Paul had mentioned that maybe if he was like 15 or 16, he may have seen this particular situation in a whole other life. And I think that there are, I think that there's plenty of young men out there that may not have read a lot of books, that may not have gone through the trials and tribulations that we have gone through, that may see Kanye as a hero.

There may be young men out there. that see him as standing up. Okay, now, how are those people being influenced and what might the trajectory of these people be? There could be some really, really incredibly intelligent young men that are 12 to 15 that are watching this and agree with him. These young men could grow up, and because of what Kanye did,

he could change these men's lives in a way that changes the relationship between African-American and Jews in the future. Like I think that it's so, there's the complexity of it. It's fascinating. I think that he may be making changes that we may not see in our lifetime, but these conversations do have residual, you know, residual outcomes that we don't even know we're happening. These conversations that are happening on air,

even though they may be old tropes to us, they're new ideas to some people. And what people do with these ideas may be different. You know, these conversations, and I think why a lot of people are scared, it is like things can happen from this conversation. Like he is saying some pretty, some pretty wild things out there, you know, especially on Alex Jones where he's talking about how he loves Hitler.

Like, you know, the long-term consequences could be devastating in some ways. Right. And I think that they're in is part of the problem. You know, all of this attention is being given to, obviously, something born in hate. And when it comes to, you know, an effective solution for the future, we already know what happens when that gains momentum. We've seen that in our history. And when you have these hate-fueled rhetorics that all of a sudden capture the minds of young people,

a lot of people end up dead and a lot of crazy stuff happens in the world. Now, you could say that maybe that suffering, you know, you can find the optimism in it. But, you know, I don't think that that's something as an intellectual society that we should embrace at any level. You know, we should be doing our best efforts to move away from these hate-fueled rhetorics that paint things with grandiose strokes that aren't applicable at, you know, once you actually get to the minutia in the context of reality. I think that takes us back steps as a society and doesn't mean. move us forward. I think the world forces you to confront tragedies over and over and over again until you get it right.

And I think that what we're going to see, we're driving right up to the tragedy right now. What are we going to do? Like, look at what, like, we have talked about this a few times where the history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And hopefully it moves in a helical move. Like, we're coming up again to this, to this world. where there could be a Holocaust of some sort. Are we going to rise above at this time or are we going to repeat it again?

Right. I don't think it's pretending it's, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was going to say this isn't a singular moment. This is a collection of choices that lead to these things. Right. That's, so that's what I'm getting at. You know, this isn't a singular moment where, hey, you know, Holocaust is coming.

We can avert this time. No, it's the collection of choices that by giving this hate a platform, bring us to these types of situations where we're repeating the process. And by the time you're repeating the process, the opportunity for change to move up that healable cycle has expired. Yeah, I agree. I think that, you know, maybe, maybe these conversations give birth instead of, instead of it being Kanye and Lex Friedman,

maybe it's Eric Dyson and Jordan Peterson that come out and have a conversation because of this. Maybe because of these horrible conversations, we start having once a month debates on Twitter with people that know what they're talking about. Like there's real things that could come as a positive consequence of this. And it's just that those haven't manifested yet, but they could be a derivative of this. Sure. But now you're now you're betting on, you know, you're betting on the double zero on the roulette table. That's how I would do that.

there's not many bets left unfortunately. Exactly, because our series of choices have led us to, hey, it's all or nothing right now. I'm all in. Double zero. I need this. Otherwise, it's over. So, yeah, I agree. Go ahead.

I think maybe that's part of, of maybe my, I hope my argument comes off as, I would prefer that my, I would like to argue from the point of, look, we're getting to this spot. I think this is a positive thing because things can come of it. Instead of saying, look, this is horrible, we shouldn't even look at it. Like, that's a way to do it too, say, hey, we're making bad choices. Let's stop. My argument is like, I agree with these are bad choices, but maybe some positive can come out of it. And I think maybe that's one reason why I pay attention to it is so that I can see like, oh, well, maybe there can be these green shoots from it.

So it's not so much in contention with what you guys are saying, but a derivative of that. Does that make kind of sense? No, no, no. I don't think you're in contention to what we're saying really either. Yeah. I just, you know, I think my greater point to that is, is that, you know, the collection of choices that we make to find ourselves in these situations without, you know, some sort of cognitive and, you know, I'm forgetting the word I want, but some sort of change that we're trying to affect. If we're not aware of that, we're not making a conscious therapist, the conscious decision. to have these changes in these conversations and in what we're choosing to propagate out into the world, you know, we are destined to repeat the failures that we've repeated, that we've had in the past. And while, yeah, I mean, look, the Holocaust happened and we have society today.

You could call that a green shoot if you want to, right? But that doesn't mean that we should go off and repeat the Holocaust and stay at this small green chute over and over. We want to grow into a tree. George, George, it sounds like the theme to your argument is like embrace disaster. So that. I would say embrace suffering. And disaster.

So that. I think disaster is a is a derivative of suffering. Okay. All right. So that, you know, we can, we can all, you know, eventually get together and sing kumbaya. I think that's I would agree with I would agree with embrace suffering.

I'm sorry? Why don't we avoid disaster so that we can continue on an upward trajectory? I don't think you can't. I think that's where we disagree. I don't think you can't avoid disaster. We can minimize disaster.

I don't think it's, I don't think that we have the ability, like you and I could, but I don't think collectively we can. I think that there's too many people with too many, motives in order to avoid disaster.

Sounds pretty fearful. Well, I think it sounds realistic. That's just my opinion. Because I'm not afraid of it. I'm not scared of disaster. I think like when I talk about disaster, it's not something I fear. Like I think it's something that's necessary. I don't want it, but it's necessary.

And I think it's the opposite of fearing it. I think it's embracing it. Like, it's embracing suffering. Like it's coming. Suffering is coming. You should be ready for it. That's fearful. Why is that fearful? I don't think it's, I don't, I don't think it's logical. I think, I'm sorry, what you're saying.

It's like, it's like xenophobia, right? It's like, no, it's nothing like xenophobia. I'm not, I'm not afraid of immigrants. Like, I'll stand toe to toe with an immigrant, right? No, that's not my argument at all. That's, that's a false representation of my ideas. It's not, it's not that way. You know what I mean?

Me? No, it is. It's completely different, Paul. You're saying that me embracing suffering is like a xenophobe. Those are apples and oranges. That's apples and oranges. That's an unfair claim. No, it's the same thing.

It's the same. Me embracing suffering is the same as someone being xenophobic. No, no, no. That's what you just said. That's what you just said. You're embracing disaster. No, no. Listen to my words.

I think that we cannot avoid disaster. I think that you should embrace suffering because you cannot stop. suffering from happening. I'm not afraid of it. Facing it head on is not being scared. So George, we all suffer. We all suffer every day but to certain extent. So like you want to argue semantics.

Like I'm not into that. No, I don't. No, I don't. You were. Yeah, yeah, you do. And you were saying, like, can we minimize disaster? No, we cannot. So we are, we're according to you and the themes of your arguments. You said we could stop disaster.

No, I said we can be minimize disaster. Not stop it, minimize it. Shouldn't we at least try to minimize it? We can, but not collectively. We cannot minimize disaster, which tells me, like, you know, like, this is an extremist idea, right? You have extremist ideas when it comes to this stuff. Like, again, like xenophobia. And if you'd let me finish what I was saying, you know, then maybe you would understand my argument. Okay, good.

So it's not that you wouldn't stand toe to toe with an immigrant. That's not xenophobia. like, oh, I would stand toe to toe and confront any immigrants. That's not xenophobia, right? Like, that's not what people are asking you to do. Zendophobia is, like, the fear of what could happen, right? It's an irrational fear. That's xenophobia. Zenophobia is an irrational fear.

Like, we're going to let all these immigrants in. Oh, they're all rapists and drug dealers and freaking criminals and all of this stuff. So, you know, like, oh, but I would stand toe to toe with those guys. of course because you're not in a physical sense you're not afraid of them in a in a mental sense you're scared the freaking death of them and it's the same thing like with your argument of like this you know this extremist ideas of these banks crashing and all and and like you know the euro is going to be done by 2030 and and now you know like we're going to live into some freaking post apocalyptic destructive society can we even slow it down no you said we cannot that's fearful george I don't see it. Like, I'm not afraid of that, Paul. Like, it doesn't scare me. That's what I'm saying.

And I'm relating that to, like, it doesn't scare you into, like, the physical sense of it doesn't scare you. Like, you would stand there and face it. But the fact that you speak about it in these terms means you're fearful of it. And what terms? In the terms of the language that you use, disastrous. Banks are going to crash. Like, you know, like insolvency and, like, the euro's. going to fail and the destruction of the family and all this other stuff you and I have talked about,

like this extremist point of view. Is it possible that maybe that's your opinion of what I think? I guess, George. You know, I kind of see where you're both making points here. There is an aspect of, you know, of highlighting these things that is born from fear. But, you know, I don't think that that's the entire story either. I think, you know, without having that conversation and elucidating the evidence of, you know, what this is based on, I think that's a very important context in this conversation. And so while I can see it, you know, I can see both of your points here. You know, I'm the middle road guy. But, you know, so I'm a little road guy too, Ben.

Right, right, right. But I'm saying, I'm just, you know, I was just giving a throwback to the conversation. Yeah, yeah. So I think there's an important contextual thing here, which is, you know, and this is kind of what I was getting at by talking about what's your definition of good and bad is because the way I kind of see good and bad. is because the way I kind of see good and bad is a relative judgment. And those relative judgments are going to be constrained by the choices that were previously made. And it's the collection of those choices that lead us down specific paths. And I think that, you know, by highlighting the issue like you're talking about, George,

and seeing it, you know, the optimistic perspective, you're kind of alluding to the idea that you know, there's these series of choices that are taking us down this path. And if we continue with these series of choices, this is what the ultimate outcome of that is. And I also see we're coming from Paul is that, you know, when you're speaking that way, you are speaking from, in essence, fearful of that situation. Otherwise, why highlight it? So I think there's, there's nuance to this, just like there's, you know, nuance to everything. And I think that important nuance in this case is, you know, the aspect of choice that comes down to this and the choices that are made that, you know, individually and collectively that bring these things, you know,

to the forefronts of conversation. Yeah, here's great points. I think, uh, yeah, they are great points. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I, um, I don't know. I mean, I think we all have our way of, of, of navigating through the world and, and I can see, I'm doing my best to see what both of you are saying because I want to become the best person I can be. And I want to make points that I think can help people. And so, you know, I can see from an angle what you guys are saying. And maybe it'll take me some time to mow it over and give it more thought. And then I can maybe have a better idea and have a better argument to describe how I'm feeling about it.

But I appreciate both of your guys' arguments. I think that they're good points. And I think there's probably some people agree with me. some people agree with you guys and ultimately I think it's a good conversation for us to have so people can kind of come together. Yeah, for sure. George, I'm not saying like, you know, you're one of the most mentally, you know, fit people that I know. Thank you. So you.

So you would look at these situations. It's like, yeah, bring it the fuck on. I'm ready. You know, and no one's discounting that. Like, if shit does go this way, like, I'm going to call freaking George Monty and be like, okay. You know what I mean? Like, Armageddon fucking. You know, your fucking apocalyptic theories are coming true, and now what the fuck do we do? You know? Wait to get to the other side to sing kumbaya? I don't know. You know what I mean? We have to get through that process first.

But, you know, I was like, for me, I have an issue with people who fearmonger, you know, with people who are like, who, you know, say extreme things as if they are going to happen, right? Or if these things are factual. And at being a middle of the right? old guy, I was just kind of like, no, man, it's not, you know, that's, that's how you get people fucking storming the Capitol on January 6th by that same type of shit. Right. So to me, I just,

I pushed back on that stuff and I, you know what I mean? And I just kind of always looking for, you know, like, I don't know, maybe I'm turning to my grandpa or something. I don't know. No, it's good. I, like, I enjoy arguing. I enjoy getting it. I don't know how to change my own mind unless I can put out ideas and have people push back on them. And like I, you know, it's, in a way, it's exhilarating. Like, I, I enjoy it. And if I, I take time after these conversations happen, whether it's a text, it's a podcast, it's a phone call, whatever it is.

Like, I take time to think about what was said. And then I honestly ask myself, okay, is what this person saying is that, how do they get there? And is that true? And if it is true, what does that mean about what I said? is the message I'm trying to get across, can I change my message to make it better? Or do I need to change my belief about it? So I enjoy this.

And the more heated the debate gets, the more I feel like I'm learning. So, you know, and I think we're all kind of like that. And it's, it's something that I wish I had with more people. Like, it's, it's genuinely fun for me. And when I find something I'm passionate about, I like to argue it. And I, it's, it's how you get better. Yeah. Yeah.

absolutely and I am so thankful that I'm making you both better I'm so thankful you are making me better I'm so thankful you are making me better man oh I love it I love it you guys this is um I really enjoy the relationship I enjoy the conversations and at some point in the beginning of the conversations I'm waiting for this you know so I'm happy about it I'm coming up on the two-hour mark.

I've been fortunate. I got my wife and my daughter that are been patient with me. I had a podcast this morning, which was fascinating and interesting. I had one right now, which is fascinating and interesting. And I am looking forward to our future conversations that are fascinating in industry. So that being said, Ben, what do you got coming up? Where can people find you? And what are you excited about?

Benjamin C.george.com for everything that I'm up to. I'm really excited about I've been really kind of taking the time recently, especially through these conversations to hone the Terrible project idea. You know, I've gone through. I have about five years of stuff I've written about this, and I've been reviewing it all and putting it into something that is exciting to me. And I hope it's exciting to you guys, and I look forward to presenting it to you guys here soon. So that's really what I've been up to besides just, you know, coding behind the scenes here. So, yeah, I love these conversations as well, George. You know, I think there's a tremendous value about floating ideas out and, you know, testing the waters of those ideas. You know, we don't, you know, you can sit there and talk to yourself all day and day long, but until until you actually, get out and have a really real conversation about these ideas, the philosophies behind them,

you know, the motivations, the choices, all of these things, you really don't have a comprehensive understanding of, you know, where you're batten from in the world. And I think these are very valuable conversations that should, you know, have more light and less content. So, yeah, Benjamin C. George.com for everything I'm up to and love the conversation, gentlemen. Yeah, I do too. I I think that's a great point, too, is I can't speak for anybody else, but I spend a lot of time in my own head. And I spend a lot of time sharpening my own arguments, but there's only so much you can sharpen in your own mind. Like, there's only so many demons you can create and then fight and destroy or get beat by in your own mind. Like you're limited when you're alone.

We all have limited perspective. That's a great point. That's a great point. Paul, my friend, what do you got coming up? I know where people can find you, but tell the people where they can find you, and what are you excited about? You can find me here on Sundays unless George freaking bans me. I would never do that. Censored. Cancell me out.

You know, on Sunday. And I mean, just I'm excited about a lot of things. And, you know, like Ben, who's been, you know, sharpening the pencil up on this Tara Libre project. I've been working on a couple things of my own, and hopefully we'll be careful for those things with you guys shortly. And I've also been making a lot of notes about Ben's project and doing a lot of things about that. So hopefully sometime, Ben, you and I have a chat about what is it you're working.

I have a whole bunch of questions. Hell yeah, I look forward to the meeting of the minds, brother. Absolutely, man. Well, hang on for a second, guys. I'm going to close this out, but I want to chit-chat with you from an effort. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for taking time to spend with us here on the psychedelic roundtable. It's always a fun conversation. It's usually always a little contentious, but I hope that it's also always enjoyable. So thank you to everybody for listening. Thank you for being part of the podcast. And that's what we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.