TrueLife - The Psychedelic Roundtable - “YE” aka Kanye West vs The Jewish People

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/The spectacle of “YE” vs the Jewish people is the existing orders uninterrupted discourse about itself, it’s laudatory monologue. It is the self portrait of power in the epoch of its totalitarian management of the conditions of existence. The fetishistic, purely objective appearance of spectacular relations conceals the fact that they are relations among men and classes.In todays world of social media that is dominated through the intermediary of instantaneous communication it seems this “communication” is essentially unilateral. The concentration of communication is thus an accumulation, in the hands of the existing systems administration, of the means which allow it to carry on this particular administration. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins maze,

lights my war cry, born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini, check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the psychedelic round table. We got quite a show for you today.

I want to premise this beginning by saying that, today we're going to talk about some topics that are in the news, mainly this whole Kanye versus the Jewish people. And I'm confident that everybody here, the goal of this show was to maybe have the conversation that could have been had. I think there's some really valid points that people were trying to get across. And I think what we saw was a lot of ad hominemes, some straw men, some logical fallacies that were based in emotion that came out.

And the object of this show is not to hurt anybody's feelings. I love all people, and I think most of us do. And I want that to come across. And there may be some debates going back and forth, but I can assure you that everybody in this room has a heart of gold and is trying to do what's best and cares about everybody here. So I want to use this as a disclaimer for anybody that's watching this show to thoroughly understand that we're all a bunch of friends having a conversation.

And though we may not agree, we can all agree to disagree if we can. And so that's what the foundation the show is going to be about. So here we go, gentlemen. Everybody saw it this week or the last couple weeks. We've seen, we've seen, yay, I don't want to dead name them if that's the right terminology for that thing, you know. But, you know, he looks like he's been having quite a month, you know, and I'm just curious to get you guys' opinions, you know. Ben, do you want, maybe we should start off by introducing you guys, for those who may not know. Let's go ahead and go around the horn here.

Ben, can you start off by introducing yourself? Sure. Benjamin C. George, a.k. Mr. Wizard, host of the No Absolutes podcast, author of that book over there. And yeah, always happy to enjoy these Sunday chats. Nice. Jason? Yeah, Jason, with experience integration. And I'm excited to jump into this conversation today because I've studied it deeply. I've been a, I guess I should maybe add in there in my title, like Kanye West Yee fan. and fan boy at times. So I just got to make sure that that is very apparent, but I am biased as hell on some levels of my appreciation of this artist that we're going to break down today.

Do you think I can shorten that title just to racist? Would that be better? Far easier. I'll just step in for Paul since he's not here. So let's let us begin at the beginning. Jason, you got a pretty good understanding or you said you've been doing quite a bit of looking into what's happened. So why don't you give us the rundown from beginning to end of what you think happened? Oh, my goodness.

I mean, clearly this year for Kanye has been a significant one. He's dropped an album at the beginning of the year with Donda, which was in honor of his mom and a pretty different album than I think what of a lot of his fans were hoping that he would do. It felt rushed. He went through a series of these extremely intense listening parties. If you remember back to the beginning of the year, he was locked away in the Atlanta Stadium, football stadium, where he was writing and finally putting the final production pieces to this thing. And then he did it three times, I believe.

It might have been four, but I know there was at least three listening parties. And so instantly, when he's doing this stuff, it was kind of the, this, you know, Yee's return. And in that return, it was also coming out of the divorce from Kim, which was breaking them up in some pretty significant ways. So he's coming into the year, just kind of broken, not sure kind of fully what's going on, really testing the boundaries of what's possible with music, then how you even experience music and putting on these, like, extremely integrated theatrical performances. I'm curious. Did anybody see any of these listening shows that he did? I didn't see any, no.

So, yeah, I mean, these are being hosted like the Atlanta Football Stadium. They're being hosted at like the L.A. Coliseum. And it was like his home is there. And it's just this incredible thing. And so I don't think he gets nearly enough credit for just performing something like that with an album that have even not been released yet. This is the first time the audience is hearing the music. And so extremely progressive. And then he begins to go through this process with Pete, fucking his wife, and like this weird.

thing and he comes into the media and it's just this like kind of he begins to crack in the beginning of like the divorce stuff comes out into kind of mainstream culture and it's starting to kind of grow this almost disdain for for Kanye because of how he's handling this this connection to to Pete and basically out of that he then kind of gets he breaks away from Instagram he breaks away from from Twitter. He's not, he's pretty quiet. And then he like comes back to Instagram, which wasn't his preferred method of communication. He would tweet a ton. He didn't do a lot of stuff on Instagram. But he comes back with this fury of Instagrams over the course of probably a month, just very, some crazy stuff, some calling people out, posting of text messages between him and famous people.

and this is really where he begins his beef, if you will, with the community at large, saying, look, things are not fair and I'm getting fucked. And basically, it's all leading up to fashion week. Again, this is all very orchestrated, right? Kanye knows what he's doing. So he's beginning to get the zeitgeist, if you will, up in a fury around who he is and what he's doing. And then all of a sudden, fashion week hits. And like a couple days before fashion week, he had an Instagram go out and he basically said, grab the popcorn, get ready, it's about to go down. So he like, he like kind of put this out there, like this is getting ready to happen. So he shows up to fashion week and he just dominates the headlines of fashion week. Like, again, this is a rapper, you know, who's been trying to get into the

fashion world for a very long time, trying to be established in this space. Owens one of the, is the founder of one of the most expensive, or not expensive, but well-to-do fashion industry of Yeezus, right, with Adidas. making use us adidas 250 million dollars a quarter that's what their loss is going to be adida's lost by cutting this out so he shows up to fashion weekend just dominance um if you didn't remember he did with belenziaga he did this mud fashion runway where all of the fashion people were walking through the mud in these these clothes just like really interesting like what he was doing with fashion then he of course shows up with the white lives t-shirt with candace owen to

one of his own displays. And that just fucking again blows everybody up. They get all pissed and is starting to kind of build again, what's he doing? Is he crazy? And then basically after the height of fashion week, he basically starts dropping what we've been seeing over the last month, last monthish of everything around kind of this Jewish control and that he's breaking out of it. And he then just goes on this fury.

again, first place that he really starts is Tucker Collerson, right? Crazy that like, ye would choose that. In the beginning of everyone was like, what the fuck is he doing? Like, why is it going on Tucker? But you're realizing like that was the foray into then what was going to build. After Tucker, it just begins to snowball more and more and more. He ends up on drinks with his buddies, a safe, quote unquote, safe space with like people that he's collaborated with nor, N-O-R-E, like guys he considers friends. And they freaking get them drunk and high. And of course, you're going to see some of the most unfiltered shit come out of his mouth. So then everybody, that instantly, that's up for 24 hours, gets taken down. Everybody's pissed off at this situation.

And then he continues to go on this fury. He ends up on Pierce Morgan. So now, like, we're not on the Fox thing. Now, I think Pierce is on the CNN side of things. If I remember, he's like more on the left side. So he goes to a different kind of modale, you know, different news thing. Goes crazy on that. continues this narrative is up on Lex Friedman it has an I think of Lex really had an interesting interview probably the most intellectual one of all of them and Yead is in that time been cut from adidas he's been cut from Valenciaaga he's been cut from his record like he has been a hundred percent almost canceled across the board in the last two weeks I think the estimated loss of somewhere around two billion dollars so that's where we're at it's an interesting kind of narrative

I don't know if that helps for content. It's important that like what we look at today and what we're discussing is somebody that has had an experience in this world that very few have seen. A guy that has started off as a producer. He didn't start off as a rapper. He had to earn his right to become a rapper. Then he becomes one of the most awarded rappers. Then he says, I'm going to go to the fashion industry. And he spends 10 years, basically apprenticing, working for free within the fashion industry, begins to dominate that shit. So he's built these empires in three areas of production, being a hip hop artist and fashion.

He's something of a savant in ways. And so when we see what he's doing, we can't advocate, we can't defend it. I'm not here to defend what Kanye is saying. I don't think that, you know, any of us are trying to make that perspective. But what is important and what's nuanced is, why? Why is he doing this?

What is he going after? What has he seen? What are his perspectives that are, worthy of some attention, whether it's being articulated in a meaningful way or not. So I'll stop there. That is my synopsis of where I think we're at today with you. I think it's a great foundation, and I'm glad you put some backstory on there. And while that was happening, we had two awesome guys come in here, Mr. Kevin Holt and the one and only Paul Powell. Welcome, you guys. Thanks for showing up. Did you guys get to catch the

intro that Jason was putting in on there? Yeah, kind of. Yeah, thanks a lot. I had no clue what was going on. I appreciate that summary. Yeah. Okay. Paul, did you get to catch that? Yeah, the PR. Right? The backstory somewhat.

So I guess maybe since now that we kind of have a foundation built, we can get into maybe some of the things that were said. And I don't know. Paul, did you want to start in and say maybe your idea of what Kanye is about or what he said in these interviews or if they upset you or if you thought they were kosher or what? If I thought they were kosher. Good word.

Thank you. I don't care about the man's... You're breaking up on us. I said, I really don't care about the man's uniqueness, whatever unique position he is in the world, it still does not excuse his words. And the fact that he had a, I don't know, a midlife crisis you know, on national TV over the last month,

there's no concern of mine, really. Nice. You know, I think, I think, like, any discussion that revolves around this clown, you know, is, you know, we got to be, we got to be really got to be careful. And, like, a savant, like, I hope you call me a savant, Jason,

because, you know, like, I don't know if this guy is anything that I would consider to be savant. Paul, how many Grammys do you own? Have you ever received? I don't have any. any Grammys. Okay. How many billion dollar fashion industries

have you run? I mean, are these all qualifications of being Savant? You got to be a Grammy winner. You got to be fashion icon. You got to be a billionaire. Are those all savant things? What do you say then? I would actually argue they're not savant things, but you know.

Yeah, I, yeah, I kind of, you know, I don't want to, you know, demonize anybody. I don't want to pull anybody through the mud or anything like that. My problem with this whole thing is, is if somebody has a particular influence, a platform, a voice in the world, to me, that comes with responsibility. And I think he acted very reckless and irresponsible over the past month for not just himself, but people associated with him. And then he wasn't able to

articulate himself out of that hole from what I've seen. I want to pull it back a little bit. You know, because there is this idea in society, and it's not always an accurate idea. And I don't know the answer to this. And so I would like to probably give everyone's opinion here. You know, sometimes we see people that are wealthy, and it's almost assumed that they have deserved that wealth. I'm not saying that's always the case.

But it seems that in today. world wealth to people seems as if sometimes it gives the illusion of having more is being more. And that's not always true. But the question is, can somebody be, you know, I don't think people win Grammys because they're not talented. I don't think people rise to the level of billionaire without being intelligent on some level. I think if you were if you were if you were not intelligent, you would get your money stolen by the time you're a millionaire. But, you know, there are different levels there.

And I'm curious to what you guys think. Can someone be can make it to the heights of industries and be, you know, with an IQ of less than 80? What do you guys think? Well, if you have billionaire parents for sure. That's one way to do it. And, you know, it should be. fair, a lot of the people in our upper echelons of society today come from not necessarily billionaire parents, but, you know, at least millionaire networks of people and associations.

And, you know, you don't get through these doors these days unless you know somebody. And we always, we always knew that. It's always about who you know. We were told that as kids. It just so happens that that actually really runs the world a lot more than merit. you know we've we've stretched pretty far from from merit being kind of what elevates people really far yeah really far i mean i look at connier's being like a product of of the times really you know like someone who's you know who you know has a talent in in you know in you know in the rap game and then you've coupled that with like you know this explosion of social media even in the time since he's been really famous like you know the the amount of people who are taking

into social media for like, you know, self-promotion, you know, or mass promotion by their peers or people who are, you know, fanboys of these guys. And so like what was possible, what is possible today wasn't even possible like, you know, 20, 30 years ago, you know what I mean? You couldn't do this. You needed a whole host of people, you know, that were in positions of authority and power to help you gain fame. And now fame is gained a lot easier. and I think that's kind of overseeing with this guy.

But I think you've got to go back, Paul, and realize that this is actually part of what I think Kanye's issue is, is that he didn't come up in the social media days, right? He came up, like, you know, right as Web 2Pointe was coming in, like his first album, which was one of the, you know, the more acclaimed ones of what he did and put him on the roadmap was graduation. And that came out, I believe, let me just pull up the exact date. I'm sorry, college dropout. And that came out in 2004.

And then he followed that up with late registration in 2005. And then he followed that up with graduation in 2007. So you have in a three-year span before anything is really happening and social media, three incredible albums. Like right now, those are considered some of the three back-to-back albums that are just insane. The initial album, he produced on his own, but he was signed with Rockefeller, who was Jay-Z's, which is the big dominant industry record label at that. point in the hip hop game they signed connie but they wouldn't put his album out because his beats were so good

they wanted to use his beats for other people and so that's what kept happening he was building beats for other people he was a producer he wasn't a rapper and so then he literally he records the 12 songs um on the road as he's creating beats he gets in a car accident he breaks his jaw like all these really interesting kind of things that he had to overcome and then when that album hit it for he blew everybody away. Rockefeller had no idea he had put together because being a producer, he could produce his own shit, which most other rappers

couldn't do. So I want to put Krenas to saying, yes, but Konyi's not a, this is a 44-year-old man that's been playing the game for over 20 plus years. So he's grown up in this time, but he is not a product of this time. I think that's really important to pay attention to it. Well, I think there's

like two different times with Kanyang, right? Like, when he put out that first album was, did he make a billion dollars on it? No, he wasn't a billionaire. Exactly. What about the third album? Was he a billionaire at that point? Connie did not become a billionaire until he got into the fashion industry.

Right. You know, so he had used the tools that were given to him, you know, through social media. And, you know, and it was really good at self-promotion. And it was really good at other people promoting him, getting other people to promote him. And he blew up, right? But there's like, you know, there's kind of like two stories of Jesus. You know, we got two stories of Kanye here. And I'm in no way.

Preparing this man to Jesus. So this brings up some interesting. I'm big on language. And when I hear the word tools and product, it makes me think of, you know, it seems that when people sign their name to a contractor, when people get deep into the fashion game or the media game or any sort of high-level celebrity game,

they themselves become commodified, they become a product, and then a team develops around them to sell that product. And I'm wondering, like, what does that do to someone's ego? What does that do to someone's life? And what are the rights there? Like, if you're not a father, you're a product. You're not a fashion designer. You're a product of fashion. And it changes when you become the, when the instrument becomes the institution, you know, you,

you change radically. What do you guys think about Kanye being a product and that being part of the problem? Kevin, what do you think? I don't think very much, to be honest, but I would just to tag on to the last thing about intelligence. I don't know if it's as crucial as purity of intent and perhaps sociopathic drive. He probably has a little bit of all those things. Yeah, I would agree. No, I mean, if you look at Kanye when you start talking about like, you know, about like what it's done to him and if people would behave in the same way, well, it depends on, you know, on whether you hate yourself or not.

That's one of the factors. And it's clear that Kanye hates himself. Why is that clear? Can you give me an example of why that's clear? Listen to his words. Listen to what he says. You know, I mean, the guy, if the guy's not trying to compliment himself to death, he's putting other people around him down. You know what I mean?

It's clear that this guy doesn't really have a high opinion of himself. He's accused of having the highest of opinions of himself. He has a song called I Am a God. And that pissed everybody off. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. So if you take it at face value, which I'm not going to, you know, you hear somebody who's like self-aggrandizing. You hear somebody who's like put himself up on a pedestal.

But what I hear is sadness. What I hear is like somebody who doesn't really have a high opinion of himself. I hear somebody who maybe in life was trampled. on or put down or, you know, abused or bullied. And so, you know, when I, when I listen to him talking like Pierce Morgan or on Lex, you know, whoever I've been listening to for the last week with this lunatic, you know, I hear somebody who really doesn't like himself, man. I look at his body posture on TV.

I look at his lack of eye contact. You know what I mean? I look at all those things. This is not a confident man when he's saying these things that, like, you know, he's using all these superlatives about himself. I see somebody who is scared. I see somebody who's alone, and I see somebody who doesn't have a high opinion of himself. Well, I mean, to his credit, he has lost his family in the most public of ways

and then made an ass of himself in that process because he made it more and more public. And now he has seemingly jumped off a little bit of the deep end in a couple certain ways in the way that he's speaking. And, you know, I would agree with you. I think that that's very telling of, you know, the underlying where he's coming from. And it does, to me, look like a broken man. You know, and on that level, that's a sad thing, especially for it to be dragged through a public display, such as this. Yeah, but you don't help yourself by being anti-Semitic, anti-Black and all these other things.

The way, you know, it's hard to sympathize with a man who's going through these things. such as a divorce or separation of family while they're like shooting themselves in the foot all the time. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think, again, words are important like George said. I wouldn't call it sympathy as much as it's sad. It's sad to watch. You know, the sympathy kind of, you know, goes out the window when somebody makes a very public choice to go on very public podcasts and very public shows and talk like this. You know, at some point, you know, that's, and if it's not a mental illness, then I think you kind of, you remove a lot of the sympathy from the situation. But I'd like to be able to go back to like what George is saying.

Because I think what's important to me here is really, this is not about Kanye. Like it's not about his mental health. This isn't about where he's at. Like I really don't like I don't fucking know. And I don't think anybody does because nobody actually knows this man. So we can't talk like we do. We can't talk like we have any sense. I think what's important those to go back to this idea of what happens when you have

human beings that are being turned into a product. through the contracts that they are signing, and those contracts are not public. You do not know, and you are not allowed to talk about what someone else's contract says. So when you have an entire industry like music built on this concept of contracts, which productizes the human beings behind it, what does that do? And is that something that should be talked about? Is that something that should be brought up in our current society? Well, I think that's a very narrow view of what's actually happening.

society because that's every aspect of society. That's not just the music industry. That's everybody who goes, you know, it's the VC industry. It's the startup world. It's all business. And yeah, when you when we start to contractualize and use humans as products and, you know, essentially slave labor at some some junctions, you end up in a bad situation. This is that bad situation. I, you know, I don't think it takes, you know, a savant to really see through. that and understand that this is definitely a problem in today's world. At the same time, you know, what he's doing, I think if you were really, if somebody was to step back in that position and think about it, I don't think you're going to make that choice. Because if you're

making that choice, you realize things are going to get worse for you. They're going to get worse for your family. Maybe you feel an onus to call it out. Maybe you do feel wrong. Maybe you do. Maybe it actually is grounded in a whole lot of evidence in reality. But at the same time, there's a decorum to all of these things. And, you know, I think that's part of what he's shitting on, not very articulately, but, you know, he does kind of go into this whole bubble, where then his solution is, I'm just going to make my own yverse of everything. And, you know, I think that's, if we were a step back, I think a lot of people are actually feeling that way these days, just at a personal level.

Yeah. You know, I really like that direction. I think that, you know, I've often heard it say when when people have nothing left to lose, they lose it. And I think you can look at his family being lost. You know, you hear him say things like,

I'm the greatest rapper. I'm the greatest designer. But he's definitely not the greatest father. Right? He's definitely not the greatest decision maker. And if we, you know, not to beat it down too much, but I think it's relevant to the conversation when we talk about this on a grand scale is sort of the decision makings. And, you know, I look at, I look at Kanye like a, like a status symbol. Like he lives his life out of status.

And isn't it interesting that he married a sex symbol? Like, think about these two people as symbols. Like, there's no way that particular relationship is going to work. A sex symbol bases their life on being a sex symbol. And once they're taking off the market, they're no longer as sexy. They've already lost market value. The status symbol can't stay married because they've got to chase status. They're going to soon lose being number one when they settle down and start taking care of the ones that need them the most.

And so the idea of these two symbols is a lot like the people being commodified. The same way society has made Kanye a product. So too have we made people symbols. We have made people products. We talk about people, hey, be your own entrepreneur. or be your own business, but you're becoming your own symbol. And there's no humanity in a symbol. And what you're seeing now is the breakdown of humanity.

And I think that Kanye and Lex and Kanye versus the Jews is a symptom of the sickness that plagues us. And so, you know, there's so much to think about it. And you can see this. On this podcast, we talk about so as above, so below. And if we take Kanye versus the Jews, I think you can see populism versus the world, populism versus globalism. One thing is in contrast with another thing. And you can change out all the different things,

but there's always this battle between them. I really like the idea of looking at this at a bigger scale. I'm going to shift gears for a minute because I got a few clips. I want to kind of get into the words Kanye used. And let's take an objective look at these clips and see if the words that he used were wrong. and I also would like it to be kind of a steel man. Like let's try to figure out what he was trying to say,

whether it was through pain or whether it was through something else, and let's try to steal man his argument. And that way I think we can make for a better conversation and maybe solve some problems or maybe put forth the conversation that could have been had. So let's start here with this one. It just so happens that it just so happens that there's been times where I had my lawyer was Jewish, my regular label was Jewish,

is like eight people that basically would collude and talk without me were in groups saying, okay, this is what the tour is going to be, this is this next house, and they were making all these decisions, and they're making all this money, and at the end, I was like, I ended my tour, and I don't have the money. And it just so happens that that's the case, that what they were, but what I'm saying is, if everyone can say, hey, you can't point out this fact, or we're going to say you're anti-Semitic and we're going to call you Hitler, I feel that there has to be at least 1% of safeguarding the ability to screw the artist based on saying it's anti-Semitic by pointing out that they just so happen to all be

Jewish. Okay, Paul, you and I had talked earlier and you had mentioned that the way Kanye said stuff was a problem for you. In this clip, he said it just. so happens is that that they're Jewish does that change the way you think about what he said previously well I mean look in the context I know exactly what he's saying right he's saying that all these Jews are conspiring to steal my money all the Jews around him right yeah okay that's what he's saying you know what I mean right totally absurd okay is that is that

anti-semitic to say that I would say that it's anti-semitic to say that what is religion have anything to do with it? Like, I don't understand. It's tricky, because it's a religion and it's a racial identity at the same time, right? Right. You know, so what's, you know,

what is their commonality? All right? Like, what does that have anything to do with it? Like, that's the part. Like, unless he can, like, bridge that gap, then, yeah, that he's being anti-Semitic. If there's some way that he could, like, say, hey, based on these people's commonality, right?

That there was a, you know, there's either a culture to conspire, right, or to oppress, you know, for money or power, you know, or, you know, or that there is an intent based on their commonality. Between eight individuals. A correlation in a nutshell. Let's just play. I'm just curious about this. If Kanye said, hey, all these people happen to be white men, is he a racist?

And a sexist against men and who are white? Well, I think that was the point he was trying to make. He was trying to say, why can't I say that these are all Jews without it being anti-Semitic? And I think, you know, to his point, his actual point right there, I think you should be able to say that, hey, I was surrounded by eight Jewish guys. Just so happened. That was a common theme between them. And I ended up ripped off. But the way he goes about it, then, you know, turns it.

anti-Semitic because of all, he's in context with everything else that he's been saying. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong. Like, hey, I was surrounded by eight Jews who gave me a bunch of money and bought me lunch and then gave me a guy to wherever I needed to go and drop me off, and it was great. Right. That's not anti-Semitic, the same way. It's just saying it, you know, these eight guys who conspired against me, they were all Jewish.

Well, that's the common theme. If they were, you know, if there was a more common theme to them, he would have said that. You know, if it was white men, he would have. said, oh, it was these eight white dudes who screwed me. It doesn't, and that's just, that's just a reflection of, you know, the situation. I don't think it actually entails anti-Semitism. It's not, you know, those things aren't racist. They're not sexist.

And I think those types of arguments get people in a lot of trouble these days, undeservative. So I think that's where his angst is coming from, from that statement. These are old tropes, right? Like, these are things that have been around, you know, that have strong for a time. Like, there's no originality here from Kanye. You know, it's not like this guy really, like, educated himself and decided that he was going to make this statement about the eight Jewish people that were, you know, in control of contracts in his world, you know. This guy's functioning at a very, very childish level, you know.

I would agree. And then I would extend that a little bit, too, and said, you know, you're supposed to be the arbiter of this whole thing. why were you letting all these other people make these decisions? You know, if you're, you know, you should have a manager that you trust. You should have agents that you trust. You should have these people that you trust. If you don't trust, then you fire them. So if all of a sudden you had eight of these guys around you, where was the disconnect

and the thought process and the choice and whose responsibility is that? And I think if it's all yay, then that responsibility falls on him. And, you know, I never heard the acknowledgement of any. any sort of level of that. I think something though you have to pay attention to is that there's something about access that's really important about being able to rise up the way that you want to be able to rise up and who you have in your network and who you're connected with. And I think part of the sometimes the issue that it lies here is that access point is

pretty narrow. And it's controlled by a pretty narrow group of people. Let's take out the race thing. Like, we should have an issue of, like, the fact that it's dominated, like, media is dominated by a handful of white men. I've got an issue with that on some levels, right? We should be paying attention to this stuff. So it's not that, like, Kanye maybe had access to, like, the best managers, the best lawyers, the best people in his direct network that he had to maybe go beyond what he was comfortable with to get access to the people that could get him to the places that he wanted to go. Is that an issue?

Is that something that needs to be paid attention to? It isn't. Like, I don't really care what happens in Hollywood. I don't care if it's all dominated by one group with a single commonality. It has no bearing on my life. You know, like, if you're looking at it as, you know, like, hey, these guys are all conspiring to make money, you know, to for to, you know, make money. And more importantly, power, right? Then now we got something to talk about.

But like I said, you got to bridge that gap. And to this date, no one's been able to do that. And that's silly thing with the LA Times, you know, writing about all these Jewish people and positions of power that on all these Hollywood production companies, man, is just silly. I think this is just another level of divide and conquer if you have a far enough vision. Because, you know, it's not about white or Jew or whatever. That's not what the actual issue is. The actual issue is that there's a small handful of people who give a two rats asses about the rest of people. And they love their little power club and you're not a part of it.

That's the real problem. And those people are willing to commit all sorts of atrocities to maintain and gain more power in the world. It doesn't matter what sort of loose correlations they may have from an ethnic point of view, religious standpoint or the color of their skin. It's just a piece of shit versus the rest of the world. That's the actual problem that should be being discussed. But by the time you actually get to those discussions, it becomes a Jew, it becomes a white person, it becomes racism. it becomes a Nazi, it becomes all these things, so you can't actually have that conversation.

Yeah, well said then. I agree with that. It's being distasteful. What was that law? There's no law against being distasteful. Well, no, there shouldn't be. Yeah, you know, it makes me, in a weird, ironic twist,

isn't it weird that there's a representative from the black community and a representative from the Jewish community, both talking about how their people are being oppressed, and one is a billionaire and one is a multimillionaire. I'm not sure that those are the best representatives to be talking about how oppressed their people are. Why?

Because it doesn't seem to me the level of suffering those two individuals have gone through is the same level of suffering that people in their group have gone through. And it seems that he who is closest to suffering tends to be the best person to talk about. Yeah, but I think you've got to look at Kanye's rise happened through suffering. Yes.

So it's not like he was born with the Silver Spes. I don't know what Lex's history is, how he came into his wealth, other than just, you know, his knowledge. But like, yeah, I think on some levels, you got to look at the whole journey of a human being that brought them to these places and say, like, just because they're not this level that they didn't suffer and therefore they can't suffer

and therefore they can't speak to the experience of that. Well, I think everybody can have their opinion. I think kind of what George was leaning into a little bit was that when the individuals who are hearing that message reflect on it, they're going to look at like, oh, look at this guy in his fucking gold, gilded cage, right? You know, like what does he have to worry about? You know, he gets spoon fed all these things. And, you know, regardless of the truth of that, that is the sentiment.

That is how people reflect upon these things. especially if you're in the midst of the struggle and you look and you're like, oh, there's somebody that's spouting his mouth and he's super wealthy and he he's all hurrah, meanwhile, I don't even have the time to barely listen to the guy because I'm sniffing dirt over here. But I don't think that Kanye is advocating for honestly anything that Kanye is trying to change is for other elite people. He's trying to change the game at the highest level. He's not trying to be a voice of the common oppression.

he's talking about the oppression of the elites, right? That's so I don't think it really matters. Well, but then he comes out and he starts talking about higher DNA and all this other stuff. And that's a very slippery slope. And when people start using words like that, millions of people end up dead. Well, exactly. I'm not, again, I'm not advocating for the things like beginning to look at what's, again, trying to keep it at that 50,000 foot view of the situation that we feel like is this is

emblematic of because I feel like George what you said before you show that clip was just spot on of like how we could begin looking at this at a higher level. Yeah. So staying in that vein, like what do you think? I mean, this is kind of subjective and we don't have the right to infer what people are feeling or thinking. But just for a thought experiment, what do you think Kanye could have said that would have got his point across and have been been better at it? I think you focus on the economics side of it. You don't you don't bring in the race. You don't bring in this. You focus on the power structures and the economy and in how that's all correlated and related to one another and the ins and outs, the roadblocks that we were talking about before.

I think that's the proper conversation to have because then you're not alienating people just off of a single word or a sentence or two. Now you're actually, you know, everybody is pretty intimately aware of what money means in the world. and so now you can have that conversation and probably get a point across a little better. Yeah. Kevin, what do you think from like a third person point of view? If you see some, if you see, I don't know, maybe you think Kanye's in pain or maybe not, but what do you think he could have done better in that interview that would have made him come across a little bit more intelligent?

Maybe he could have scripted it first. Yeah, right. He strikes me as like a really good. writer because his lyrics are great but he cannot articulate well at all so yeah so i'm a little slow today guys i just came back from a three-day vipassan retreat my brain's not quite functioning not normally what kind of retreat it's a hypasana it's a shah it's like the um they claim it's buddha's technique but who really knows it's you know complete silence no internet nothing for uh Usually 10 days, but I just did a three-day one this time.

Nice. Very nice. So my mind's like kind of slowed down a lot and I have trouble attaching to ideas today. Oh, yeah. Nice. I'm stoked to you here, man. Thanks for being here. Paul, what, what, is there something else he could have said that would have maybe garnered more respect from you? I mean, I don't know.

Like it's, you know, like the way he said it was, you know, was pretty bold. Um, and I don't, I think I would probably agree with, with Ben, you know, like, make it more about. you know, anything that what he was trying to make it about, right? I mean, literally, anything. And then that's probably, you know, been a better outcome, but, like,

deafcon, say, DefCon, DeFCon, 3 on Jewish people. On the, and it's like, that stuff, it's just like, oh, I'm a little sleepy,

okay? You know, and then, and then just kind of go on, you know, go on a rant, you know, And it's, you know, the interesting thing is, like, we're having this discussion. I mean, you know, like, whatever Kanye is saying about, like, the music industry or the sports industry or Hollywood in general, you know, I mean, it's basically he's arguing for one person, Kanye. You know, none of these things that he talked about really apply to me or anybody I, well, a couple people I know. but, you know, it's, you know, these aren't like, you know, these are like first world, wealthy, freaking famous people problem.

Like, you know, each one of those, you know, descriptive is like really, you know, like, a thousand times over, narrowed the pool of people that we're talking about down to one, Kanye. You know, so he's up there, he's melting down midlife crisis, wife's out banging somebody else, you know, and he's, You know, he's struggling with that. And, you know, and then, you know, and then he's just not very bright. And, you know, doesn't really have a firm grasp on the English language, however great of a writer he says he is. You know, and this is what happens, right?

He's just out there crying to the world about the things that he's going through. So, you know, this is... I see this as a lot of, like, you know, the cult of celebrity, right? you know, it seems that, you know, there's such a impetus to have all of this celebrity in Hollywood and all of these things. We can even extend it to sports and all of that stuff too. And, you know, all of these things are just these wild things that really like Paul is saying, don't apply to you and I or anybody else that we really know all that much.

But yet all of a sudden, here we are. we're talking about it, how many other people have talked about it, what things have happened in the world in the past month? You know, there's still a war going on. You know, there's still a lot of these other things happening. What sort of things are missed because of this cult of celebrity, this zeitguise that we have perpetrating the West? I think that's real tragedy. That is a tragedy. Hey, Paul, can you pull up on your mic a little bit?

It's harder to hear you. You know, that is a tragedy. that's a real tragedy. But let's talk about the things that he said that actually, you know, affect all of us. Like, you know, his wild conspiracies about Jewish people or his wild conspiracies, you know, about anything, really. You know, the guy seems to be kind of embroiled in conspiracy theory here, you know. And what kind of, what does him saying those types of things? What type of effect does that have on the American public?

Like people who are just like, hey, I really don't know about him. And, you know, a lot of these things that talking about it. But because he's talking about it, he's lending it credibility. However wild and crazy these conspiracy theories that he's brought up over the last month are. To me, that's the thing. We talked about, like, what he said earlier, about, like, you know, how do these things play with society? Well, just like we're lending credibility to a guy who speaks about things in the most crazy ways. and, you know, without really addressing, like, you know, what's the downside of this guy speaking about this shit, you know, and what's the downside of having millions of people actually take him seriously?

So wait. Yeah, go ahead. How is that different from the Alex Jones situation, in your opinion? It's not much different than the Alex Jones situation. In fact, I think Kanye gets a lot of his stuff from the likes of Alex Jones and, you know, Mark Levin. And, you know, Rush Lumbab, may he rot in hell. And a bunch of all, you know, a whole bunch of all these other conspiracy theorists out there. You know, it's like it's the dumbing down of America.

Hey, let's have a debate on things that aren't rooted in truth. You know, and let's actually take it seriously. And then let's go out and spread these lies, you know, that have no basis at all, in fact. And then, you know, and then we'll see what it does to American society. I think we're seeing the fallout of that right now. So you think maybe it's a, you can blame that on the conspiracy theorists because we get lied to all the time on all angles. The problem with conspiracy theory is that conspiracy is real. Yeah, conspiracies happen.

It happens and has been proven to happen. And so there is a body of evidence that can support some of these conspiracy theories. And some of the, you know, I'm not saying what Kanye says. not at all. There really is no body of evidence that can support these things. Absolutely. Where do you think the Fed came from in this country, bud? Like what we're saying?

Like I would really love to hear somebody argue because this is true over here. That means this is true over here. That's not how it works. It's evidence that suggests. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. All right, but that's the same argument that they made for the weapons of mass destruction. mass disruption in Iraq. Right.

So power justifies itself. So power justifies itself. That's a conspiracy, right? I mean, the ultimate... Well, I would say power is the ultimate justification, whether we like it or not. You know, whoever has the biggest bomb wins. Like, that's our foreign policy.

That's the idea... Whoever has the biggest platform and says whatever enough times they end up being the truth. And we're back to Gerbils, right? The bigger the lie, the more people believe it, which takes us right back to conspiracies. Right. You know, and I think we do have evidence,

enough evidence, at least what we can call evidence, that indicates that there is definitely conspiratorial nature in this world. And it's usually moderated, mediated by people in the upper echelons of whatever system you want to call it. You guys, sorry, did you guys see the kim.com Twitter thread? No, what happened? You remember the Russia pipeline bombing from a few weeks back, right? Apparently, someone had access to, I don't know if it's true, and I haven't verified it. Apparently someone had access to the Apple ICloud between Liz Truss in the UK and Senator,

or sorry, whoever blinked in, Secretary of State. And she sent him a text like one minute after the bombing says, it's done. Uh-oh. Don't know it's true, but that would be a conspiracy if it is true. Well, then she up and quit, what, just 45 days in? Yeah, right after that she was gone, right? That really doesn't help the case, yeah. Yeah.

Go ahead. Please. No, no. Like the United States was founded on a conspiracy, right? That's a conspiracy theory. So you should find us a billion dollars for even talking about it. That's the problem. Okay, see, this is kind of what I think this is another problem people aren't talking about is

Like, if we agree with Paul and we say Kanye is just a dummy, he doesn't make, who cares what he says, then why are people making such a big deal of it? And like, the wrong way to shut down an argument is just call someone a conspiracy. That's the worst way you could possibly do it. Because good arguments beat bad arguments all day long. When you say someone's a conspiracy, there's, I'm not going to talk about it. That makes you look really weak, and it makes you look as if you're afraid to talk about it. And I think that's a side chain to censorship, like, hey, this person. We're not going to talk to him. Why not? If he's stupid, you can just destroy him. Well, we're not going to talk to him because, you know, he's real popular and he does a lot of stuff and you guys a big reach. And like, see, the more you begin coming up with reasons why you censor somebody or when you just use one, that's hate speech, that's a conspiracy theory. Like, that's just shutting someone down. Let him talk. Like, people can decide. People aren't stupid. People understand when someone's bullshitting. And if you let someone dig themselves a big enough hole, they're never going to get out of it.

I think what you're going to see and what bothers me too is that I think by the media saying, hey, you can never say this about Jewish people. Like, they're making it worse. Like it's like the stric end effect, right? Like, hey, don't, don't talk about it. Okay, now everyone wants to talk about it. If you tell your kid, don't do that. What's your kid going to do?

They're going to do it. Like, let them go. Let them feed them the rope, right? Just feed them the rope. And I think they're making a huge mistake here. And so too are people that try to shut down debates. You know, I think Paul's right. We should have debates.

and let people go in debate. There should be rules for debate, but the dumb argument will lose, in my opinion. What do you guys think? I think you're wrong on like so many levels, George. It's incredible. Okay. If we look at what Ben says about the average education of Americans,

if you're saying like people are smart enough to figure this stuff out, well I think Ben can probably argue that really well. Another thing is this whole idea of like, you know, like we should just have debates with conspiracy theory. No, we don't. We don't argue drunk people. The crazies, right? So someone who's a conspiracy theorist is crazy? Typically, a lot of conspiracy theorists are crazy. You listen to like Marjorie.

But look how you're throwing that out there. You're just throwing out a conspiracy theorist. So anybody you don't like is a conspiracy theorist. That's what it sounds like to me. That's not true at all. No, people who say crazy shit about conspiracy theories are conspiracy theorists. So it just so happens to people you don't like a conspiracy theorist then. No, no, no. There's plenty of people that I don't like that are not conspiracy theorists. but all the ones can you think of somebody you do like that's a conspiracy

theorist? Somebody that I do like that's a conspiracy. I like you, George. I do. I didn't like me, man, I just gave you conspiracy. Right, right. I was going to say, isn't a conspiracy theory crazy shit? Isn't that kind of what's what makes it a conspiracy theory?

What's crazy? An element of nefariousness, I think, is what makes it a conspiracy. Something like that. I don't know. We should look it up. Yeah, look it up. I have it right here. George is always right.

Let's Wikipedia that real quick. We'll edit your page. Yeah, totally. Definition of conspiracy, a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. Well, there you have it. That happens all the time.

What about the banking industry? All of them. more Jewish. Yeah, more Jewish. That's funny in a lot of ways, man. Okay, let me move to another clip here and see what you guys have to think. Again, we're going to try to steal manate. We'll talk about it and we will try to see if he could say something different.

The idea of anti-Semitism and the, the, the, closeness of the Holocaust is used by certain individuals in media to not take accountability for the bad things that are happening. Anyone want to take that? I mean, again, that's such a huge stretch. Yeah. Yeah, don't get me wrong. A lot of people have been, you know, like called a Nazi just because it was convenient for ratings or defeated an argument or whatever. So I think in that in that small train of thought, I think, yes, that does happen. But I don't think that it's nearly as replete as he would seem to indicate there.

You know, when we look at hate, like I believe in Germany, you can go to jail for bringing up. Holocaust or speaking hate speech, which, you know, I fear the idea of someone being, having money taken from them or the idea of someone losing their freedom for saying something. Well, you know, I think that that's a bridge too far. Right. I wanted to say this earlier is, you know, again, this is a small component of something that's, you know, a much larger system at play here. You know, this is the Canso culture.

This is, you know, the trucker rally is. in Canada where all of a sudden their bank accounts got cleaned out because they were protesting. This is, you know, all of these similar instances are happening in every country in the world, right? On top of it, you also see things like a China and the great firewall of China and then trying to control speech. We just had a ministry of misinformation that got shot down in a couple weeks because people like, what the fuck? You know, so there is a concerted effort to control what is being said. And I think that concerted effort is coming because the people, the power structure is in play. They, you know, if these conversations come out in the open, you know, now they are liable.

They become, you know, they're not these grand leaders. They're not, they're not these golden boys and women who go out and, you know, wear the crowns and all these other things. They're just shown to be humans, fallible just like the rest of us. And that is not, that does not breed great. continuity for power. What do you think, Jason? You're awfully quiet over there. I'm just loving listening. I mean, I feel like to your point, Ben, like, if that is, on some of those,

it feels like that's a little bit of what Kanye is trying to call out just in an extremely inarticulate way is, and basically saying like, there's this thing, this is my experience, this is what I've seen. I'm trying to shine a light on what this thing is of what's going on. And again, only in the elements that he can see. and understand within, you know, the arts and media. And like what about some of the pieces too of like, you know, where he felt like he was being being handled around what he could and could not say,

like the control. You know, even go back to him putting on the red hat, right? Like, is he a crazy conspiracy theorist because he put on the red hat? Or is part of what makes this country great the freedom that Kanye should be able to wear the red hat regardless of his status. But it's like, oh, no, he has a platform. That's dangerous. He's continuing to espouse.

you know, something that 50% of this country agrees with or whatever, right? Like, it's interesting. Like, what happens when someone like that, that breaks a mold that's kind of set begins to then go just, well, he's crazy. He's conspiracies, they're theorists and canceled, right? You know, now, like, colleges are, I think it's Texas A&M is no longer playing, like, power, when it was, like, you know, a song from 10 plus years ago because it's now like Kanye's dangerous. Like that feels like

cancel culture at its like highest right now. And that's to me what's also interesting. Just not about what kind you say, but just like what's happening. How is this thing responding to him? That's a very interesting point because that was the slippery slope that red to led to fascism last time. Just as a note.

Listen, there's really no articulate way to say what he's saying. Like, I mean, that's kind of the point of this conversation. right here, right? It's like, how do you speak about these things that are conspiratorial in nature, what he says about Jewish people, and to make an articulate argument out of that without using the lowest forms of

debate that we're all, you know, at least the five of us here are aware of. You can't do it. And that's the problem. You know, it would take a far more sophisticated person than what Kanye West to even try to make those types of arguments. People have tried to make those types of arguments about Jewish people for a couple thousand years and have failed spectacularly doing it.

A lot smarter people than Kanye or myself or anyone of us. Because what they're talking about is innuendo. It's conspiracy. It's no rooted in reality or truth. Could we just for a moment take out the Jewish thing? We were just to take that out and we were just to start saying power structures. right like whatever whatever there is we know there are power structures that are controlling our consumption of what we can and cannot say like that is the reality i feel like of what we're seeing

happen so how do you fight that power structure how like how do you articulate something and do you have to go to the lowest levels to like light the matches be like i'm gonna fucking just bomb this shit like and then we'll see what comes of it like is that one method like i think that's a little bit of what we're seeing but how do you fight the power structure Well, that's the problem, right? This guy's just saying that the entire power structure is made up of a group of people that have a commonality of which they used to conspire against everybody else with. So I would tell Kanye, give yourself a better attorney. But the problem is, they're all Jewish.

Let's talk about law and Jewish people. Let's talk about medicine in Jewish people. Let's talk about freaking, you know what I mean, Hollywood in Jewish people and banking in Jewish people and all the rest of that stuff. So, like, you want to substitute power structure, you know, for Jews, like, that's not even, like, reality. That has nothing to do with what this man is saying at all. I disagree. I think it does have a lot to do with you saying. I think this is actually his point.

He just doesn't know what his point is. That's what I would argue from what I've been hearing because, you know, he's seeing the, he's seeing all of these negative points of this. He's been experiencing this. And then he got a hold of, you know, some Alex Jones material. And he probably read a few websites. And then all of a sudden he got this idea. But, you know, that idea is an extrapolation from, you know, the power structures that do run this world. And those are real power structures.

And they're not all Jews, you know, for the record. There's multiple groups. And these multiple groups, all are aware of each other. They don't, they don't all get along, but they all are very in agreement on holding the barriers of entry to having platforms like this and being able to go out and talk like Kanye just did. And that's why he's feeling the financial repercussions of this. That's why they're painting him as an anti-semitist. That's why, you know, they're removing all of his contracts. That's why he's lost a couple billion dollars in wealth because they're trying to make it hurt because you're not allowed to

do that. You're not allowed to challenge the power structure. However inarticulate you are about it. But none of this stuff made any sense to Kanye, you know, in such a way, right, until he wrapped it all together with them all being Jews.

That's what I'm saying. I would agree. I would agree. He's hard up on the, on the Jew aspect of the whole thing. So you can't substitute power structure for Jewish. That's what I'm saying. You can't do that. It's you know, he's, we're only having this conversation because he somehow wrapped all this stuff together and them all be into it.

Well, you can have idea what the problem is, but, but have the wrong suspect. You know what I mean? Like, you know those, you know there's a crime happening, but you got the wrong suspect. That happens all the time in lineups, right? For sure. I'm curious. I don't, I don't want to shift things too far. But again, we talk about like, I get concerned when you see, you know, a commonality between,

people that are kind of congregating in powers of structure. So for example, I think one of the biggest things that I'm worried about is Christian nationalism and its rise in America. I think we're in the next two years. We're going to see this massive arrival of Christian nationalism. And it's happening. The seeds are getting planted. Like there's some crazy shit that's happening.

And that scares me that you get Christians who are now trying to control politics with a platform. and Christian nationalism is something we should all be fearful of. But what do we do? When we see common groups of people coming together that hold power, is that worthy of a deeper look? Is it worthy to say we should be looking deeper at some of this stuff? Or are we said, if you look deeper, you're going to be this thing,

or you're going to be canceled in some way, shape, or form? Well, you are going to be canceled in one way, shape, or form. That's what they're doing. So, I mean. So, yes. The first part of your question is, yes, we should look at these things. We should have conversations about them. But it's also, there has to be something said about the nature of the conversations we have and how we have those conversations.

The way he's doing it, you're not going to get anywhere. You're not, you might start a dumpster fire that might kick off a conflagration. But do you want to be responsible for all the blood that that's going to shed? I search fuck wouldn't. So you need to go, you need to, if you're intelligent and you really want to affect change in this environment and this space, then you need to have that real conversation with yourself and say, okay, how do we have that conversation? How do I bring this to the table? What sort of evidence do I need to support what I'm saying? And, you know, none of that was there obviously.

That was my big, one of my big problems with how this all went down. Yeah. Well, side. I think, you know, looking, my wife is Chinese and they have a saying, or dad has a saying that, I hope that's not racist to say that, but they have this thing that says, if something happens once, it may never happen again, but if it happens twice, it'll definitely happen again. And Paul had already brought up that there are a lot of tropes about Jewish people. And, you know, I think, I'm pretty sure Kanye's father is a black panther. So I'm, you know, I'm sure that Kanye hangs out with people that he, he feels are his peers. And I'm sure he has conversations about these ideas instead of just going and running full out of the mouth. I'm sure it seems to me in the conversations he's done, he did well in some areas that I

thought he made up some really good points. And so I'm bringing that up because I think he talks to other leaders in his community about it and how I tie these two things together of old tropes and what Kanye saying is. You know, I think that it's possible that, you know, Kanye, could be made a martyr in some ways. Like I hear some of the stuff that he says almost like Malcolm X, almost like black leaders of the community. Like when he starts when he gets onto a platform and he talks about my people being sick and my people being aborted. Like that's true. That's those are true points. And I bet you that there's a lot of people that identify with that.

And I didn't hear in any, any context, anybody that he was talking to debate those points. And so I could see there being with him being even first. canceled, a growing groundswell of support to put him in a leadership position like that. And if we look back at history, we saw black nationalism. We see white nationalism. Jason was pointing out the Christian fundamentalist. I see a growing, a growing segmentation of groups, especially with a financial crisis happening. You know, when everybody's making money, everyone gets along. When you start taking the money out of the equation, guess what? There begins to be friction happening.

So, Jason, I'm wondering what do you think? At any point in time on some of what Kanye was saying and looking back at nationalism of all kinds in history, do you think that there are people who are beginning to see Kanye as a black nationalist leader or a leader like Dr. King or a leader like, you know, Farrakhan or some sort of leader in the community? What do you think? No, no. I don't think Kanye is a leader. I think Kanye knows he's not the leader, honestly. I think we got to look at it from, again, putting Kanye in his place as an artist.

That's the category that I would hold Kanye in. He's an artist that produces art. And anytime you have someone that is producing art in a time like where we're living in, it's art that's interesting to pay attention to. And honestly, I have a bit of a theory that I think Kanye has realized his whole thing is performance art. You guys know, did you guys ever see the movie, The Presti? I have, yeah. Okay, so this is my deep, like, this is my Kanye conspiracy, okay, guys?

This is what I think Kanye is doing. You remember how there was the magician that was the twin? And then there was the magician that tried to solve the problem like the twin. And the twins were committed to a life of magic. They were committed to a life of performance art, so much so that they sacrificed their ability to live as individuals because they had to become one man. and I think on some levels somewhere along this line, Kande became a performance artist. And he's a Gemini.

We look at his astrology. He's got this twin energy. And I think on some levels, this whole thing is performance art. At it's great, like honestly, if we go back and look at this thing, it is art. He is doing something at some level that is worthy of artistic appreciation, not intellectual, not scientific, not historical like all these other categories that we want to put Kanye in but just as an artist and that's the thing I appreciate the most and that's why like I like looking at it because I see him as a performance artist he is a twin he is fucked up he is sacrificing his life and all these ways and these dualities

and and and that's I think actually what we're seeing take place with Kanye is the prestige as grandest scale it's a magic trick and it's it's it's it's It's interesting to pay attention to. On that level, he thought off his, his helper's head in the wooden box with his magic trick. You know what I mean?

It's you failed. Spectacular. Paul, you haven't seen the movie. Have you seen the movie? No, I haven't seen the movie. Yeah, at one point, he shoots himself in the hand. Like, he pulls the magic.

Yeah, you can't get the analogy, man. He's not signed any way. He's on his own head off. That's the thing. That's the magic of what this is. Is he aware of that, though? I don't know if he's actually aware that. See, that's the thing.

It might be taken retroactively as a magnificent moment of performance art. I can see that. I can very much see that. But is he actually aware that he's playing the game? Whereas there are magician pulling the strings for this? That's the interesting thing, right? Like, we don't like, we don't know, but like. Well, the final act would tell us.

Exactly. And we've not seen it. We've not seen the final act with Kanye. So it's an unfolding performance. That's disappointing. Do you think Arnold Schwarzenegger or Joe Biden realized they were governors or presidents? There's a magic act for you, right? Yeah, there's another magic act.

All right, I got another clip. See what you guys think. Mified. You're pretty offensive towards a lot. I'm not looking to be offensive. I really want to bring people together and get these sales done. but the work i 100% i see your vision how do we do somebody care well not don't say jewish media and jewish-controlled media jm like man you sound you sound like it sounds too much like

like 1930s nazi germany that was leading up to the atrocities oh this he would say jm yeah he was branded jm that's right No, it's just the implied, like this memified, uh, prejudice towards a group in the way that's going to lead to hate. And I know you don't mean that. I know, I know you have love in your heart. It's the towards a lot.

Okay, so I'll remove that. So what? Do you think Kanye has got love in his heart? Or is, like, do you think that maybe he's, he's upset about, about everything that's going on in his life and he's acting out of emotion. Does anybody think that he really wants to hurt Jewish people? He's an artist at the end of the day. I don't think he's trying to prop up a next fascism movement. But to Lex's point, to what I was mentioning earlier,

these are the types of tropes. These are the types of words. These are the types of associations that did lead to that, right? if all of a sudden, and back to what Paul was mentioning earlier, if you have a populace that has a sum total of, you know, 50% of them of a sixth grade education, how much information can they digest? How much of this are they going to see? What are they going to take away? They're going to take away the most salient and loud points, which, you know, in Kanye's perspective is Jews are bad, Jewish media, all of this stuff. There's not, there's not a frame of reference to

rationalize these things in. And when you don't have that frame of reference, that's when people begin to get radicalized. And that radicalization leads to pretty pretty shitty outcomes. Yeah, I can see that. What do you think, Jason? I mean, I think, again, it's the the articulation, the way that he's going at it is, um, is, it's not handling the, the full conduct. Earlier in that interview, he talks about history and how, we need to not pay attention to history. And again, I think that's a really stupid way to think about things, right? That we got a, you know, we need history.

But let's look at the other side of the coin. The history that we have told to the masses is a probably curated history at best. And so when we start, when Connie is trying to say, hey, let's not pay attention to history anymore because the history we were told is false. It's not the actual history. But then when you try to apply that to the conspiracy side of things of the Holocaust and some of the more extreme crazy shit to use Paul's word, conspiracy theories of, you know, around the Holocaust, then we get, you know, a really inflated sense of canceling history, right? So again, this is, where's the nuance in some of this stuff? Like the history that we have, right?

Is it the true history? Is it one history? Are there other perspectives? 100%. We have to be able to hold space for that. But at the same time, we have to learn from the things that are, that we at least are able to perceive. I don't know. I'm curious, Ben, what's your thought on that?

Like, we know history is skewed. We know there's other histories. How do we handle this when we're trying to talk about things that are current today? There's no absolute. So how do you apply that method? Seriously, how do you apply that to some of this stuff? Well, you know, the idea is that there is very many perspectives on history, but history did happen. And so the idea then is you have a foundation to build from.

We know that we came from something. So then, you know, then it becomes an effort in research and, you know, the science of history, anthropology, putting together the stories, collaborating those stories, finding other stories that collaborate it from even without being attached to those stories. And then you can start to thread, you know, at least a rough idea where things came from. And, you know, but you're always aware that it's not absolute. Just like, you know, you don't go off and say it's all Jewish media. That's an absolute statement.

You don't say it's all Jews. That's an absolute statement. What's Jews? I guarantee you there's a lot of fucking Jews out there who are like, dude, come on. You got to be fucking kidding me. Like, you know, I've been a, my family's been shoemakers for four generations. you know, you know, there's all these, when you start to use these absolutes and you draw these monoliths in the sand, all of a sudden you end up with people on two sides of a monolith when it's actually just an illusion of mirage in the desert.

And you're both standing on a line in the sand yelling at each other when actually you should be trying to look and get out of the desert. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It seems like the people on the bottom are sacrificed, you know, And I have to agree with the divide and conquer. I think in that same particular interview, Lex had mentioned that it's looking a lot like World War II. And not just with Kanye and Jews is it looking like World War II, but international and national finance. Russia, Britain, like, you know, these little skirmishes about pipelines and energy and resources.

It seems to me that we are, one need only take a cursory glance at the news to see how dire things are, whether you believe in the truth of the media or not. The fact is it is dire. There are people who are really threatened right now. When you look at people's livelihood for the next year when it comes to food security, or you look at the wintertime for energy resources, we're just beginning to go through the incredible difficult. times that are headed our way. And I think that groups fighting each other are a symptom of that

sickness. I think that there's always in-group preference in every single race. And that that becomes stronger and stronger as resources become scarcer and scarcer. So it's unfortunate, but I think you're going to see a lot more of, you know, hate ink coming up between different groups in the future just because there's less resources, just because there's there's, there's, less less in the world right now. Do you see some similarities between World War II and now besides the current conversation we're happening? I do, but I'll let somebody else talk.

Kevin, what do you think? As someone who is living in a different country? I mean, I fully concur with what you said. I think it's a hybrid of world, perhaps a new extranational. thing and then you're going to have these within country things going on simultaneously everywhere and it's just what you said it's the in groups being divided

and fighting over resources so it's I think it's going to be different if it does break out it'll be it's not quite World War II it's a new thing but I think the principles are the same you know I think it's always been happening you think it's always been happening

Paul yeah I mean there's always been turmoil there's always been war you know there's always been famine. There's always been, you know, this since, you know, sensationalized media, you know, since there's been media, you know, because it's what sells. You know, I think, you know, I come from the school of like, I don't believe we're living in the most important times. I think we're living in the most current time. And, you know, and every generation that's come before us, you know, at one point or the other thought that, you know, that their time that they were living in. in was, you know, like, this is it. This is what's happening.

I remember when I was a kid, you know, like, the world's going to come to an end. Then there was the whole 2012 thing. And then there was the, you know, going from 1999 to 2000. And, you know what I mean? And all these things, like, you know, like the society's going to fall apart. And, you know, we're going to be taken over by robots or whatever.

You know, I just think it's just always been that way. There's always been turmoil in the world. And I don't think that, you know, that it's any greater now than, you know, than it has been in the past. I think it's just the way the world works. I think it's much less now. I think if we were to look at people at a whole and say the amount of suffering that's happening worldwide, I think it would be a pretty drastic difference from just even 100, 150 years ago

in terms of the amount of suffering that's occurring. I mean, look, we're sitting here talking about a guy who's been on TV and podcasts and on the internet. you know, how big is the struggle really? Which kind of leads me to a little bit of pushback to you, George, is, you know, you said that there's the scarcity and that, you know, it's, we're just kind of, it almost sounded like we're just, we happen to be, have some scarcity now. Whereas we've technologically advanced ourselves to points, you know, even 20 years ago, the materials that we have access to.

Look at lithium ion batteries. Look at all of these technologies. Look at all of the ability for us to gain more resources, and especially the most important resource of time in our lives. There's no reason to have the scarcity that we have, minus a few bad decisions, supply chains, things like this. But these are things that once they break, they create other opportunities. So there shouldn't be a massive degradation happening unless its intention.

there's a conspiracy Paul I would I would clarify on I guess what I would I if I could I guess if I could re-reify my idea of scarcity I would say that it's almost a

like a scarcity mindset you know there are a lot of opportunities right now and we live in an amazing time however people were just locked in their houses for a year some people think they're going to die from an invisible virus. And sometimes a lot of people think that the cure is worse than the virus. And like these are all things that promote small-mindedness because they,

people are living in a state of fear. And whenever you live in a state of fear, all your options seem to be closed off. Even if that state of fear is something that's contrived, you know, you live in scarcity. Like you don't have, like even though you could get food outside, you know, you're afraid to leave your house. And I guess that that's what I meant by this form of scarcity. You know, I do. I think there's a lot of opportunity.

And sometimes I think this is exactly what freedom looks like. Right now, there's not a whole lot of control out there. And maybe that's why there's this onslaught of division that's being shoved down our throats through every single form of media, be it radio, television, internet, Twitter, Instagram. There's all this hate out there. And regardless of who runs the media, people in media are putting this content out. And we can argue if it's for clicks, if it's for money, but the fact is it's being put out.

And what does that do to people? What does that do to the individual? What does that do to families? What does that do to races? Well, it makes them fight. It makes them feel as if they're in the fight or flight mode. So on some level, Kanye calling out the media in my book is well worth being applauded over. It's a problem.

The media is a problem. It's a huge problem. And people know that. And it seems to me maybe in this case, the Jewish people are being scapego. It's like, oh, you know, over there using the Jews. It shouldn't be about Jewish people or black people or white people. It should be about the people in charge of the media companies putting out this garbage. And I, you know, maybe even if you read MindCom or there's, I'm not going to promote anything that guy says.

But in that book, he talks a lot about the media being a problem. We don't need to talk about who runs the media. But the media is a problem, and it was a problem back then. And maybe that's how old tropes get started is that they are mis- Soundbrile. You know, maybe that's how. I think that- Hitler had a point, unquote, George Monty.

Cancelled. Not a lot of talk anymore. Hey, everybody heard my disclaimer. You're done, dude. You're done. You're off the internet. Yeah, I think that there's, there are things that happen that continue to happen. and it's not so much a group as it is degradation of society.

It's degradation of humanity. And it doesn't have to be applied to one group. But unfortunately, it is. It happens all the time. And I think having conversations like this, having these anti-racist conversations like the one I'm giving right now, this anti-Hittler speech I'm doing right now. I'm sorry, just one quick thing though.

Like, think about this. You're just going there, you're having this conversation. You're talking about this idea that kind of, you know, quote-unquote Hitler had a point. and his understanding of media and its controlling of people, right? Again, that's what we're talking about. How do you control the masses? You do it through the media, right?

And then all of a sudden something like that, Kanye, let's say, gets on that same train of thought and is like, I totally can understand that in the most negative ways possible. We got to start changing this. Somebody leaks to the press. Oh, Kanye praises Hitler, right? And now all of a sudden he's seen as a Hitler sympathize. I mean, it's just the dumbing us down. Like, we cannot handle nuanced conversations.

and that's one of the biggest problems. In part, it's actually due to, I would argue, it's due to the structure as well. When you have, when, you know, our news, for instance, is a for-profit business, what do you think's going to happen? Yeah, and we're the product. Exactly. So the structure of these things is actually,

what I feel is the much more important conversation. If you were to remove the profit structure and shareholders from CNN and Fox News, shit changes real fast. Yes, it does. But you can't do that because then the shareholders aren't making money and then everybody gets stuff. So, you know, that's the conversation you can't have. But that's the one we should be having. We need to change these foundational structures in society to better represent the individuals in society as opposed to just a few people at the top.

So let's just throw this fun one out there. I don't want to go too far off, but you think Elon's going to do that for Twitter? By privatizing and like getting out the share? Like, do you think he has that kind of vision? or do you think Elon's got to, is he, is he a super villain? I think, well, I would have called him a super villain. I wouldn't call him this, this grand genius of society either, but that's my personal opinion. Yeah.

I think that there is something true to the old tenant that power corrupts an absolute power corrupts, absolutely. There is something to be said about when you can pull all the strings, when you can just fire people for having an opinion on, and you haven't a shitty. day. You didn't get your cup of coffee, whatever. And it doesn't matter to you because it doesn't really affect your bottom line. And so your might equals right eventually. And unless you are super mindful person and you are really working on it and maybe even then, you're probably still fucked. I would argue that he's just going to end up in another echo chamber. You know, maybe that'll be more appealing to a wider audience, but it'll still be influence. You're still going to get, you know, cease and desist letters from the government. You're still going to get, you know,

CIA's and massades and all these other people trying to influence public opinion. You're still going to have all these things. You know, there's not some grand technical solution for all of this stuff. Well, you know, it's like, I think part of the problem is, is you've got a lot of Americans out there that just believe that the freedom of speech is absolute. It's not. You know, there's so many forms of speech that are not protected, and I think that's where, you know, guys like Elon Musk will find themselves in hot water, you know, for allowing certain types of speech to be promoted on his,

on his platform. You know, I mean, that's kind of where a lot of this started, where you got a group of people going, oh, we're being censored. We're being booted off of social media, and we should end its free speech, I should be able to say anything I want. And it's like, no, that's not what the founders intended. You know, that's not, that's not, that's not how it's been interpreted by the Supreme Court. You know, you can't just go and say anything you want. It's crazy to think that you can.

Yeah, but then you got to get into stuff like that guy, Peter, Dr. Peter Hotez, you heard of that guy? No. Well, maybe. He was, uh, I don't know what university is at, but he tried to argue that arguing against science should be considered hate speech because, uh, Dr. Fauci was in whatever, Congress with Republicans, and he was defensive, and then he tried to say, oh, the Republicans are anti-science, criticizing science should be hate speech. Like, that's that kind of stuff, man. It's just loony-tuns world. It's out there.

What? I said there's silliness out there for sure. That's a problem with hate speech. No one can define what it is exactly. Anytime I ask someone to say, what's hate speech? they usually say, oh, you know it when you see it. Because it's relative. But that's not a definition.

That's subjective. Yeah, it's relative at a certain level. Right. You know, I mean, you know, there's these people, you know, in colleges today, they have all these safe spaces in from all these different words that you're not allowed to say. George started out this episode saying, I don't want to dead name the guy. What the fuck is a dead name? I'm sorry.

Like, this is a silly thing. There is no such thing as a dead name. This is a made up thing, but yet in saying that, I could be canceled, I could be taken off, I can be doing all the stuff, because that's hate speech. But that's not hate speech. There's no intent behind it. And so unless you have a magic little device on your phone, on your app that says, ah, your intent is poor. Then fuck off. I think that's a social credit score coming. It is.

I'm going to have a very negative social credit score. It's okay. You know, there's an interesting, I was watching the Grand Theft World podcast, and they brought up that all of this could probably, like, a lot, I think we could agree, or maybe we can't, let me ask you, could we agree that a lot of the reasons why corporations are canceling people, be it media corporations or private corporations, because they're afraid to get sued?

Would you guys agree with that? No, no. No? I don't think it's about being. sued. I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's some motivation for that, like in the United States explicitly, but worldwide, you know, there's no other litigious society like ours. What would you guys describe the reason to large corporations canceling people in? Lots of revenue.

Power. I think we live in, like, I think that these large corporations are so in bed with government and the way that they're funneling in money through lobbyists that they have power. And so they now have to play to the script of like this, this conscripted thing between corporation and government and now what you can and cannot do. And there's too much alignment there. They have to pay attention to because it's, they're making a lot of money because of the, the different ways of loopholes and things are in their favor.

Let's be a little bit more specific. They're making a lot of money because they paid lobbyists to go influence the passings of law so that they could be making a lot of money. Exactly. they yeah and in there is another part of the problem and i think if these things are going to continually come back to structure from my perspective as a systems guy and you have these structures in place um you know you have a lobbying system where all of a sudden i'm a billionaire tech giant and wow you know they don't want to you know they don't want to make allow me to make my chips in china

anymore. Well, that's going to be, you know, $150 million off my bottom line. I'll just go pay $50 million in lobbying. And the next, and when this bill comes out, it's going to get, it's going to get put down. And that, and that becomes the game. And so there's a perpetuation of profit that is the incentive that carried on the stick for these people. But then it's the choices via the structures that they have access to that really kind of just fuel this fire and perpetuating this problem. Would that, would you say that's similar for Adidas dropping Kanye? Jason, didn't you say they're losing like $250 million a year?

Something like that? A quarter. In Q4, they will lose, I think it's like $287 million this quarter by not, by dropping the use this brand. So, you know, I think, but again, we're dealing with global, global companies, right? I mean, this is, Adidas is based in Germany. So it's like really interesting when we start looking at the flow of money and like where all of that's going and who holds the power and like what's behind Adidas, you know, it's all this stuff.

Like on some of us, you just continue to follow the money. And that, again, you begin to tell us the story that you want to see. That's, again, this isn't conspiracy. This stuff's pretty well documented by this point, right? Like, yeah. So we had a comment that came up. I'm going to read it and then get your guys' opinion on it here. This is from Susanna Dominguez.

She says, less suffering now? Sure, unless you are a Native American, Kanye is speaking from his perspective. We all see the same thing in a different way. Kanye is hurt by what he thinks is Jewish entitlement. Was something taken away from him or was he denied something? Tolerance is no longer a virtue. in mass society. Too much hate speech divides us nowadays. We've de-evolved. Everything changes,

but we are on a slippery slope of extreme division. We all need to keep family values. Ben, what do you think about that? That is a very well-thought-out comment, Susan, and many parts to it. I would have to reiterate. I do think there's less suffering now. From the Native American perspective, I can kind of understand where you're coming from from that statement. I've spent some time on the res. So, and they're pretty, it's heartbreaking. There's no other word for it that I could find. And so there is a lot of suffering.

What I was saying is that proportionally suffering across the entire world is less today than before. Now, I could cite some evidence for that or whatnot, But it's going to be a very subjective thing, much to your point. It's going to be, you know, where you are in life and what your perspective is. You know, obviously the person who just got their meal out of a dumpster tonight thinks they're fucking struggling. And I get that. But it's, you know, when we talk about a lot of these things, I think it's very important to understand that, you know, we have to speak about them from a very broad perspective looking in and with as far as vision as we can.

because that's what allows us to, you know, see the forest through the truth. Yeah. Paul, what do you think about the comment? You know, I was just kind of reading it right here. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I thought it was well, well thought of. No, I'm not a Native American, but I am Native Hawaiian. So, you know, I mean, you know, like from a Hawaiian's point of view,

I don't think anything is, you know, I think there's probably as much suffering, if not, maybe more, happening within the Hawaiian community these days. You know, I think, I think, you know, it's relative to, like, you know, let's define suffering. You know, I don't know. The time that we're living in, you know, there's a lot of things that, that are great in the way that we live. There's a lot of things that are terrible in the way that we live.

You know, I think that, I think that, I'm still trying to read her thing here. Well, let me put a perspective on the suffering statement then for today. Like, you know, one thing I would cite as evidence in that case would be, you know, years past, you had to have nine kids because, you know, there was a good chance,

at least half of them we're gonna die. You know, child mortality rate these days is very, very low. The death of a child is, you know, is, you know, what I would say one of the greatest sufferings one could experience. And so I think there's, if we look at pieces of data like that, that's where I would make the case from. Yeah, you know, I mean, in Hawaii,

we have like your first baby luau, like a big party. Has nothing to do with turning one. It has everything to do with like your kids survive to the age of one. That's the history of it, right? So people came together, had a giant party because your child made it to the age of one. It was a big deal. And then I would agree.

Like in that sense, you know, there's less, you know, there's less suffering in the Hawaiian community. But I think too, like Kanye, like, you know, like, is talking about, like, not so much from a, like, a historical standpoint of people's suffering. I think his thing is, to me, what I hear in. what he says, it's comparative to other groups of people that black people continue to suffer at a greater rate. You know, they continue to be taken advantage of, or at least the perception is, is being taking advantage of. Whereas all these other groups, and this is probably why, and this is like an old, you know, thing within, like, society is, you know, at least here in America, is like pitting, you know, Jewish people against black people and black people against Jewish people. And so like in the black community and I don't live in the black community. I did for a little while. But you know, I read a lot of stuff written by black people. And you know, it's always been

that struggle. You know what I mean? Of like as a people, why do we continue to enjoy less success compared to all these other groups? And why is our success rate actually declining against a lot of these other groups. And so, you know, I mean, like, like, it's, it's all relative, really, you know, like, as far as, like, suffering goes. But I think that's, that's one of the points that Kanye was trying to make in one of the interviews that I was listening, you know, he was giving. Which to me, like, I, I get that part, you know, I mean, I, I sympathize, you know.

I look at Hawaiians than Hawaii, you know, it's the same thing. It's like, you know, yeah, we're having children. that survive past the age of one at a higher rate. That's great, but we're being forced out of our, you know, off of our land at a higher rate than ever now. You know, we are living below the poverty rate, you know, in greater numbers than ever. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, that's, you know, I'm sure there's something in there, you know, when I hear Kanye talk about these things that, you know, that's also a concern of his. Yeah.

what do you think about tolerance in that comment she had she had spoken not only about the different communities but tolerance no longer being a virtue do you think that's applicable to this discussion yeah absolutely and and i and i'm sorry i was blown away a little bit by paul like i felt like yeah that is connier's argument again he's not articulating it well but they like we look at the larger thing it's like there is this this pitting against and and it's like we're watching some of this get played out on a grand scale, which is just, again, the nuance of what's going on. This conversation, there's so many layers to it, so many nuances. And I think that's where we don't have a lot of tolerance. We can't sometimes create enough space to actually have a real conversation,

a quote unquote, safe place for a conversation. It's more of like safe place of what you, like where the boundaries are preset for you. That's not a conversation. That's not freedom. That's not being able to actually be a fallible human being and be like, oh, you know what? Like, I want to learn something from you and I'm going to learn something from you because it probably is going to rub me the wrong way, right? Like, and that's the beauty of this. This is the beauty of the debate, right? Like, can I hold enough space in my nervous system as a human being to handle somebody saying something that I don't like? And then can I internalize that and be like, oh, I wonder what Paul's saying, right? Like, I have so much to learn from Paul. I have so much respect for Paul, even though I've never seen Paul's face.

But I just love listening to like Paul articulate because there's so much to learn there. But there might be times where it appears that it's a rub. But that's the point. Like the rub is where we learn. And I think our ability, our mental cognitions, our nervous systems have been so dumbed down that we can't handle something that feels uncomfortable. We don't have enough resistance built up in ourselves to handle an uncomfortable conversation. And so that's to me another exercise of Kanye is, can I handle this uncomfortable stuff that he's saying that I don't agree with at all, but look a little bit deeper to try to understand and some sense of what's really going on here. How is Kanye hurt?

How what's going on behind that and not let myself just react and say, you know, this is all just bullshit, right? And that's the nuance. That's what we need to have. and we need more of these conversations. These are the conversations that need to be had with ourselves and with the people that we live life with, our communities. These are loaded conversations that carry massive amounts of stigma. You know, like when you start talking about these things,

like people get traumatized that the mere mention, you know, of like, you know, the Jewish media or the Jewish banking system, you know. Like staying in those things have always been, you know, have been met like fiercely by, you know, like, choose themselves. I think some of us, the power structure keeping us dumb down to not have those conversations. To not, to your point, the structures that are that are in place are going to fall, right? I think, like you were talking about the suffering and where we're at,

somebody that's interesting that kind of came to me, Ben, was, you know, this structure's going to fall. We just, like, come on, history, like, we know America's not going to be the greatest power forever, whether it happens in our lifetime or not. This shit's going to end. It was a good run, but it'll stop at some point. The question is, will we devolve past previous suffering, like degrees of suffering, or are we going to evolve and is it going to get uncomfortable?

Might we not be able to get access to freaking avocados for six months? Probably. But like, can we also understand that the technology and what we, the infrastructure is almost like, it's like the structure is going to fall because the infrastructure behind it is actually forcing it to fall. It's almost more of like a pushing out than a collapsing in. And so is it going to get uncomfortable? All people are going to die? A hundred percent. That's going to happen. Right. And I don't say that as an insensitive way, but it's just, again, history. There's going to be suffering. But will, will there be this balloon that's actually going to push it out?

And we're going to evolve forward in a really significant way with new structures. And yet maybe not. History will repeat itself. Right. So it's an interesting. conundrum. Are we evolving? Are we devolving? I don't know. What do you think on that from? I think we're evolving, but not everybody all at the same time. It's, you know, and I think more and more we're seeing that chasm of division rise from multiple perspectives. One's just the socioeconomic. You know, the people at the top are being more and more at the top every single day. You know, we just witnessed the single greatest transfer wealth in recorded history. And in that, you know, those people are taking that money and they're trying to live forever.

You know, so you have this, you have this divide of, you know, where the epa echelons, where the money, where the motivation behind that, that structure is pushing leaves everybody else out. But at the same time, in pushing down those paths, everybody else says, Well, screw you guys. If you're going to go that way, we're going to go this way. We're going to try it our own way. You know, there's a couple smart people over here who have some good ideas. And so what I think we're going to see is the erosion of nation states.

And I've talked a little bit about this before. But, you know, the idea of a nation state is pretty archaic in times where we can talk, you know, a whole world apart in real time to one another. We can actually hash out ideas. Now, the infrastructure that's currently in place, your point is pushing us to a breaking point because it's not geared for that. That infrastructure was put in place to, you know, elevate the nation states, right? And so then you have the other side of that. You have this globalist movements, you know, people who realize this is happening. It's like, oh, we should all, we all live on a safe planet. We should all just, you know,

fall under one banner. And then there and again, why is the problem? It's, you know, well, who's going to decide that structure? And it's, you know, the people that they, elect and they're not electing. They're, you know, the people that they say is going to decide the structure are people with all the money. Well, that doesn't historically or, you know, even in our lifetimes work out for the common individual well. And so I think we'll see different iterations, parallel economies.

We're already seeing it with crypto. We're going to see parallel societies develop, parallel communities. And, you know, burning mans are kind of an effect of this. We're going to see a lot more stuff kind of congeal into not just like, oh, a random, you know, or even an annual thing. But, you know, we're going to invest some time and some money and try a new idea, a new experiment, if you know. Because, you know, this experiment is coming to an end. Yeah. It makes me one, I mean, it makes me curious.

Could there be a retraction to the nation's, like, I mean, it seems to me with populism will rise extraordinarily before before it fractures all of this. Because you have to figure a lot of the people who make a lot of the money are very, you know, like we were talking about, the lobbyists, all this stuff, this is all ingrained, this is all a system for them. It's all, it's all part of a thing. So, you know, just like Morpheus is quote in The Matrix, you know, these people are so helplessly a nerd and so part of the system that, they will fight to defend it. Yeah. In some ways, you could say that that was part of World War II was international versus national. They were national socialists.

They wanted their entire country to be getting a paycheck from the labor of that country. Isn't it weird how, you know, on the right people, the left often claims the right are nationalist. The right often claims the left is socialist. you know, it seems as if the power structures have decided you could be a nationalist or you could be a socialist, but you could never, ever be a national socialist. Well, the last time that happened, there was a problem, you see. And I mean, that's populism in a nutshell. Like, every country wants the money made in that country to stay in that country. That's the argument the world is having.

Like, that's the people in countries around the world agree, hey, this is ours. But it seems as if there's a handful of people are like, no, no, no, no. you guys are too dumb. Did you get it? We got to take yours and give it to these. We got to take the money from rich countries and give it to rich people in poor countries. Don't you guys understand that? Like, that seems to be what's happening.

And on some level, you know, all the horrible anti-Semitism that happened to World War II, like if you took that part out of it, you know, there are some things Germany was trying to do. that could have worked. Germany almost won that war against, it took the United States jumping in for them to lose that war. And I think that some of the ideas like what's wrong with national social and what's wrong with the people in that country getting the wealth of that country, as long as they're not oppressing other countries. Like what's wrong with that? Well, I think if you were to extrapolate it out onto a big level is that what's wrong with it is that we're only, there's only one rock. There's only so much room.

for things to be spread around. There's only so much resources. These things are finite, even though they are massive in comparison to human endeavor. But they are final. And so eventually you will end up with, well, why do they get to do that

when we can't do this? Or why do they get the wealth? You know, we work just as hard. And so it becomes in us and them. It becomes a divide and conquer. And whenever that rhetoric starts happening, there's always somebody making a whole, whole shit ton of cash. And it's not the people fighting each other. You know, there's an

we're talking about World War II, but prior to World War II, you know, Germany was one of the leading founders of Israel. They founded the city of Haifa. There's pictures of the Nazi flag in Israel because they helped build the first few towns down there, right? You know, and so then you go, well, what the hell happened? And then, you know, if you pull on the strings a little bit, the answer is, you know, to Jason's born earlier, you follow the money. And when you follow the money,

that's where you end up into the rub against the national socialist and the infrastructure, the global infrastructure, the emerging, you know, money, monetary system of the world at the time. And Germany, in the second that Germany told them to go fly a kite, that's when World War II really kicked off. Yeah, it makes you wonder what would happen if the U.S. stopped giving billions of dollars to Ukraine. Well, it would be over really freaking fast. I mean, that's just a matter of, you know, technology and people.

I mean, if nothing else, people. They got like six, seven times the population in Russia. In a weird way, like, you know, if you, when you look at NATO and the contracts that are signed there, with America and all the countries having to come together. In a weird way, that's kind of what Kanye's talking about with contract law. Like it's just a microcosm of it. You know, it's like, as above so below. Yeah, we're not escaping this anytime soon.

You know, that's just kind of how it works. But it's then identifying the structures in that as above so below and not repeating the same mistakes. And so this is more to the articulation of what Kanye could talk about, right? Yeah. You can use this platform for change. Right, because then now you're getting people to think, oh, well, okay, I really haven't thought about the world in that perspective. And once you could do that, you know, now you have the change, not that you will, but you have the chance to avoid all the bloodshed in the evolution of these things. If you just go off and start spouting like he does, eventually people end up getting shot or stabbed or in and then it gets worse from there.

on these, you know, turns into, that dumpster fire turns into a conflagration real quick. Yeah. Gentlemen, I'm... What was that, Paul? Nothing. Go ahead. I was just saying, I think that this conversation has exceeded my hopes. I really felt like I got to learn a lot, and I really am thankful for every one of your guys' opinions and your insights and your ability to articulate how you feel about things. So thank you to all of that.

And as we're getting ready to land this plane, I just wanted to give everybody a few minutes to maybe sum up what they thought about the conversation or if there's anything they have to add. And I thought I'd start with you first, Benjamin. Oh, boy, sum up something to add. Oh, geez. I'll skip that because I think I've talked enough during this conversation. But, yeah, find me on No Absolutes podcasts. I'm sure I'll have all these guys here as guests in the next week or so. nice jason you had a unique take on and i really admired your your question of why why is coney

acting that way like what is this mean i was wondering maybe in summation if you could maybe pull on that thread a little bit more i mean i think the question for me will that will be the thing that continues to keep me engaged into watching this performance uh continue to unfold is why? What's going on? You know, not not jumping into ever try to defend, not trying to take one side or another and continue to just be a student of some levels of what's going on and how is this stuff kind of playing out. And I feel like whenever we're on the edge of structures breaking down, artists are sometimes the people that are out there saying things, doing things that we don't always understand or we don't like. And that's the stuff that gets me excited because it's worth paying attention to. What's happening on the fringes of culture and society?

And when you see these bigger people like a Kanye start to shift to areas that's unacceptable based off of what the narrative is saying, and it's important to pay attention to. And so I think it's something that we got to hold it in the place that it is. Can he do better? Absolutely. I feel like everybody's made a lot of great points. And by no means, do I ever try to defend Kanye? It's more of just being almost a student of like, okay, what's going on?

And not to say, like, I'm going to emulate, but I want to learn. I want to pay attention to. And I think sometimes that's what great artists are, whether we want to say they're great or not, they will make an impact. And so that's what I love paying attention to is the impact. Yeah, as well said, Paul, I always value your opinion. Like I love the approach and I love the the the scalpel, the intellectual scalpel. Yeah, yeah.

I really admire it. And I feel like I learn a lot from not only our conversations, but the group dynamics that we all put together. So Paul, what would you want to, what do you want to add to the conversation or is anything you want to sum up with? Well, thanks, George. No, I mean, I think what I would get out of this conversation is, is like there's a guy who said a lot of crazy things. But how do we, you know, back to what Jason was saying? You know, how can we take the stigma out of these conversations

so that they, you know, so that we could actually have a productive conversation that revolve around some of these, you know, more sensitive topics. And, you know, and then I think, you know, I think that's when when you get real growth or you can really start to affect change, you know, in a positive way, more than just telling people, you know, hey, man, you know, go the fuck away, you know, you, you're an ass, and nothing productive comes from it. So, I mean, for me, that's kind of, you know, what I got out of this is how can, you know, how can, you know, I can four or five people who enjoy psychedelics, you know, that's our commonality, by the way.

you know, have, you know, have conversations that, that, you know, aren't so loaded, you know, where we can actually, you know, without fear, you know, talk about things that are sensitive. And I think we, and I think we began to, you know, at least kind of build some framework around how that could be possible. So I'm excited. Yeah. That's a good conversation. I, um, what do you guys?

Do you think Kanye would benefit from a large dose of psychedelics? Oh, I would love to take him. Right, that would be fun. I don't know. He might not. I think at some level, if, you know, he was prepared in the set and setting and the right, you know, all of that stuff was correct, then sure. I just don't think you're going to get the proper preparation, the proper, you know, the nuance, the intention, the set and setting. But I could be wrong.

another guy personally yeah interesting i can speak from experience man is like you know this kind of put myself out there you know i was a dumb man once that wasn't very you know man that's just a lot of things that were wrong back then but um you know i uh i began using psychedelics you know like the eight of seven eight and um began reading a lot of stuff that i that i suspect that conier you know has either been reading himself or people are speaking about these things. And I was like, you know, began to go down, you know, some of the same paths that Kanye is currently on when it comes to, like, conspiracy about groups of people and not just Jewish people, but all kinds of people, you know, self-victimization, you know, a lot of these things.

And I think that it's, you know, a lot of it was like, you know, I was able to unlock, you know, pieces of my brain. But what I was feeding it was really not useful. I mean, looking back, there's a lot of, and it's kind of the reason why I push back so hard on some of this stuff, and I make reference to like Kanye, you know,

like, hey, where the fuck are you been? You know, these are things that, you know, that people, like in the early, in the late 80s and the early 90s, this was also, you know, kind of hot topics of discussion here, you know? You know, some of the things that he's saying, and it was more, you know, like,

out in the open, you know, because it was the 80s, right? And less people were, you know, really conscious about the things that they said. And so, I think for him, you know, I think it would just maybe compound the issues for him. You know, I think you can use psychedelics in a number of ways, you know, to either, like, open your mind or narrow your focus. Yeah, or you can move to South America and start, like, your own little country, drink Kool-Aid. George, what if all this is the result of a psychedelic trip, right?

Like, what if we are, to Paul's point, seeing unintegrated or unhealthy use? Because from what I've seen and understand, he hasn't said anything publicly, but there was, when he was spending some time in Wyoming and before he came out with the album, he came out with Yee, and then after Yee was the Kid Seed Ghost, which was his collaboration with Kid Cuddy, those are pretty conceptual albums. And there was a lot of conversation whether or not he was using Deals. or some other type of stuff to kind of further the work that he was doing. And at that season of Ye, he was in Wyoming and he had this grandeur of creating all of the

clothing on his land. And, you know, the dude has some serious, serious ideas of grandeur. So that's, you know, we can't. But yeah, I think on some levels, you know, what if some of this is the downfall or the, you know, the unhealthy side of too much of that stuff? Well, I look at it. When you say it like that, you know, I, I happen to think that bad trips, you can learn a lot from bad trips, you know, and that's, that's where the idea there's no such thing as a bad trip comes from.

Even though there are bad trips, you can learn a lot from a bad trip. And, you know, Paul was just speaking earlier saying when he was younger, he went down all these crazy roads. And I think you have to go down, I think you, if I can steal a line from Ozzy Osbourne, I think you have to get on the crazy train. You have to figure some, like you have to go down the wrong road to realize that. the wrong road. You know, you have to go into some, some, some wrong places to figure out, oh, shit, I don't belong here. Or, you know, you have to go down. You have to take some weird thoughts. Like, you have to, you have to ride that thought out, you know? I remember, I remember going to a party one time where everybody was doing a lot of blow. And this guy did a lot of

blow. And I didn't know him, but he was freaking out. And he's like, dude, I got to call the cops, man. I got to call the doctor. He's like, I can do you. I'm just losing my And the only part is like, you have to write it out, bro. We ain't calling the cops, man. Just to write it out. The guy wrote it out, man. You know what I mean? Like, don't call the, don't go hitting the panic button.

You know, but how do you do that when you're a billionaire? Like, if you're a billionaire, you have the ability to hit the panic button. You have the ability to go on all the platforms and say all the crazy things that you would normally say to a group of friends that would smack you. Like, dude, shut up, man. You know what you're talking about. Like, if I said something dumb, you guys would all come down on me. You know, or if, if I, when I was just, when I was just, you know, younger, I was lucky enough to have people in my life that would grab me and be like, dude,

you are an arrogant dummy right now. You don't know what you're talking about. You get it? Just shut your mouth. Like, you don't, you have no concept what you're talking about. You look dumb. Like, people tell me that. And like, I think Kanye doesn't have anybody around them and tell them that. You know, I think that when you're a billionaire, you're surrounded by people that tell you how great you are. And you start believing that. You know, like that's, and that gets us back to the idea of being a product. Like, yeah, oh, that's great, Kanye. Yeah, you're so right. Yeah. Oh, did you get my check, by the way? Oh, can I get a raise?

You know, like, you are surrounded by people that don't care about you as a person or what you say. They just agree with you because they want some of that status. They want some of that Kanye dandruff that can flake off on them. And that all, I'll just say that happened. The death of his mother was a significant point of when anyone that was like just like, I think at that point you see this shift where it was like he was on his own and everybody around him. everything about his life became performance. Kim, the kids, all that kind of stuff became this thing of trying to find that love because it wasn't his mom. And when she passed, it shifted everything for him.

So I think on some levels, we can look at that pain. And I think what you're calling out is spot on. There is no. And to what you were saying, Paul earlier in some ways, you know, he is hurting. This is a pain, the guy that is experiencing a lot of hurt. And, you know, the inarticulation is such an example of that. because I don't think he has, you know, the loss of his mom really did, did a number. And think about that. Like if he, like, Paul made reference to a scared man. It sounds like he was a scared kid. You know, what, like, if you were just to break it down even further, like, you know, he seems a lot to me. I think some similarities between him and Kim Kardashian is there was no dad in the household.

Like, here's a guy with no dad. His mom told him everything. Hey, you're the best son. You're the greatest, man. You're going to be the greatest in the world. Like the feminine, Jay, you know this. The feminine is a beautiful thing. And it's there to raise you up and hold you and care for you.

But if you don't have some dad balls that are over there pushing you around, guess what? You're going to be more feminine. And look at Kim Kardashian. And like, where's her dad? Where's all those girls' dad? Like, how about the Kardashian had to break her face like 15 times before she decided she was pretty? Can you imagine? Like, that makes me so sad to think that this girl's going to be.

to bust her face like 10 times. I don't know how many reconstruction surgeries had, but I know it was a lot. Like how many times you're going to let someone break your face because you don't think you're pretty? Where's the feminine there? Where's the mom there? But they're a mirror image of each other. Kim Kardashian is the, on the opposite side of that coin is Kanye West.

That's the, dude, they're a perfect couple. Like, that's the exact imagery of what they are. You know, but unfortunately, look at their kids. No dad in the household. You got some crazy guy Pete calling Kanye saying, I'm doing this to your wife. Like kids are going to hear that, man. Absolutely.

You know, and their kids are going to be just a fur, like, that's what's sad to me. Like, that's the worst thing about this. And in some ways, it just invalidates everything Kanye is trying to say about people taking advantage of him and him wanting these things. Like, dude, be a father, man. Quit all this. Go quit all that, man.

Like, stop trying to be the, greatest designer and start trying to be there for your kids, man. Stop worrying about Kim and stop worrying about her boyfriend and stop worrying about what you can do to be a dad. Maybe that's not fair for me to say, but that's how I see it, man. Well, I think it's interesting. And I know, I know we're trying to land the plane, so I don't want to go too far down. Yeah. But it's really interesting because I pulled up Kanye's human design, which I brought up a couple times, like how, you know, we're wired and whatnot. And Kanye is a production. And Kanye is a production. And Kanye is a projector. So there's four types that are out there. And projectors are, they send this really

unique place in the world. I have two projectors in my house. My son and my daughter are projectors as well. So I've spent a lot of time looking and trying to understand what this is. And what's interesting about projectors is that their core strategy is waiting for recognition and then an invitation. So they want a recognition and then an invitation. And when they feel like they don't have that, they then begin to live out of bitterness and just this over-articulation. So my daughter's in kindergarten. One of the first things that her teacher said in her parent-teacher conferences was she talks a little much. And she just does. She loves to talk. And she just is always, but this is part of her design. This is part of how, because if you don't

invite her in, she will over-talk to try to be recognized. And frankly, right now, I wish someone to freaking slap Kanye beside the head and be like, look, dude, you're not living in your strategy. Because on some levels, Kanye's entire struggle in life has been waiting for recognition because he found magic as a producer. He came in and did something that no one had ever seen by the beats that he could produce. And then from that moment, he has been fighting for recognition in the rap industry and the fashion industry. And as a father, like, all he's doing is fighting for recognition. And he needs to see that honestly, at the end of the day, he needs to be recognized. He has to wait for that and be invited invited in. And if he'd figure that out,

he could be a great voice for change. But he's not playing that game. He doesn't understand that about himself right now. And so he's just fucking it all up. So that's my human design breakdown of like what I see going on in Kanye. And projectors are going to be leading the world. Like that's the shift. Like right now manifesters and generators, they've been in control of this last like 400 years and projectors are getting ready to come on the scene and they're going to be the ones to start running shit. And so it's something people need to pay attention to. It's an interesting piece of what you see on that side. I don't go too far down the human design rabbit hole because I know it's a little weird, but it's interesting to pay

attention to. Yeah, I think it's a great analysis. And yeah, that's what I got for today, ladies and gentlemen, I'm super, like again, I'm super thankful to everybody. I really value your opinion. And I feel like this might have been one of our best podcasts so far. So thank you to everybody. To everybody watching, thanks for the comments. That's what we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for participating. And we will see you next Sunday on the psychedelic roundtable. Everybody hang on for a minute because I want to talk to you for a moment after I land this plane.