TrueLife - Tim Oliver - Peace, Purpose, & the Promise of Psychedelics

Episode Date: April 21, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/tim-oliver-817541258Tim is the founder at Modern Mushroom Cultivation. Modern Mushroom Cultivation is committed to growing clean, organic, and dependable psilocybin mushrooms for our community. We aim to corner the new budding market around psilocybin therapy in Central Oregon with gourmet psilocybin chocolates, gummies, and capsules.If you haven’t heard of Tim yet, I guarantee you that you will in the not to distant future. It is guys like Tim that will open the door to the future of what is possible in the works of psychedelics. From radiation cleanup to genetic ties with human beings, Tim has his finger on the razor sharp, cutting edge! One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, Fearist through ruins maze lights my war cry born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope that everybody's having a beautiful day. I hope that some beautiful surprise happens to you and you're blown away by the beauty of life. I hope that happens to everybody today.

And I'm going to try to do that today with my good friend Tim Oliver right here. We are going to be getting into the world of different kinds of mushrooms from cleaning up Chernobyl to the Aztecs to what's happening around him and what's happening in Hawaii. For those of you that don't know, Tim Oliver, tagline, ancient medicine advanced mycology. I love the way that sounds. He's the founder of modern mushroom cultivation, and it's a clean, organic, and dependable community that he's working in for the space. And so, Tim, let me throw it over to you, my friend. Maybe you can first off introduce yourself and then tell us a little bit about founding modern mushroom cultivation. Yes, George.

So, yeah, my name is Tim Oliver. I'm the founder of modern mushroom cultivation. So for the last four years, I've really just been trying to plug away kind of getting ready. for the legalization phase out here in Oregon. Once Measure 109 was officially announced, and we knew it was going to actually go through, just been putting everything together to kind of make this actually a reality out here. There's been a lot of hurdles that we've had to come over

and just a lot of things that have happened in just recent months. So things are really getting exciting out here. It's really moving fast, and we're just wanting to share it with the world, kind of what we're working with out here, and super excited to kind of get everything going finally. We've been doing a fundraising for the last, I think, year now at this point. And, you know, just reaching out to multiple people all over, you know, from the Netherlands to, you know, here in America to Canada, pretty much anywhere that, you know,

willing to talk to us about this. It's my favorite subject. So, you know, just reaching out to the community as much as possible and, you know, just trying to get things going. So hoping that the fundraising ends soon and I can actually get back. to growing mushrooms and providing for the mental health community out here in Oregon. Yeah, that's fascinating. Maybe you can provide a little bit of a foundation for those people who may not know

what 109 is and what's happening out there. Maybe you can give us some of the headlines that have been happening out in your area right there. Yeah, so just at the beginning of this year, Measure 109 was actually officially launched. And for the last, I think, two years, Oregon has been really just putting in all the foundation work for the rules and regulations to put this all kind of together. And basically, at the very beginning of the year, they started receiving applications for manufacturers, workers permits, and facilitators.

So it's not going to be like a dispensary model where you'll be able to walk in and purchase psilocybin mushrooms and take them back to your own home and consume them. In Oregon, it's going to be more of a therapeutic setting where a person will go into a service, Center, they will have an integration session where they'll go through the processes and they'll be made aware of how, you know, the process, how the service center will, you know, take them through their journey and their process with the mushroom. And then they will actually consume on-site

and they'll be required to stay in the facility the entire time that they're under, you know, the hallucinatory effects of the mushrooms. So basically, what we're looking at, is definitely not a dispensary model as of yet that might move to that in the future it's one of the safest drugs that can be consumed we know that you know in the literature that's safer than cannabis consumables as far as you know emergency room visits definitely safer than alcohol considerably you don't want to drive on them but they're definitely a little bit safer and a little bit more tolerable now out here in Oregon one of the things that we're definitely

looking forward to is the therapeutic aspects to this. So we're thinking that the big majority is going to be PTSD. Individuals suffers from ailments such as Alzheimer's could potentially be something that we would look at in the future as well, anxiety, depression. But I also think that there's a great possibility for just helping people better than themselves. You know, like I imagine the person that works a nine to ten job all day long They are stressed out from just everyday life, and it would be beneficial for them to come in and maybe decompress just one time a year, come into a service center and take one of these trips with an individual and be under supervision. It's a safe setting. They know that they can receive some type of therapy if they need it, but it's not purely going to just be for therapeutic.

because it can also be for just, you know, helping individuals, you know, overcome life's, you know, tribulations and issues. But it's also going to be very beneficial for the people that do need the therapeutic side of it. I personally seeing myself overcome anxiety from it. I've had, you know, multiple experiences. We can kind of touch back on how I got into this in a little bit, how I actually kind of started my venture into the psilocybin market. But I do see a mass problem with the way that therapy is taking care of currently. I think that the current model of prescribing pills or medications is just a Band-Aid that is kind of just temporarily overlaying the underlying problem.

It's therapy kind of touches deeper into that, but when combined with psychedelics, I think that there's a potential to go much deeper into the psychology of why this is affecting a person the way that it might be. I think that one of the problems that I see is all of the current pharmacology, they're made in a laboratory, one to be patented for profit, which is the wrong perspective. We're trying to help people. And the thing is they try to keep these patents alive for as long as possible. They'll constantly go in and tweak the chemical just slightly as soon as their patent is about to expire to keep that inside the patent law so that they can continue to make profits off of this chemical. And they're taken in the long term.

These pills, a person will be prescribed them at a dose at the beginning that will gradually increase. over the lifetime and they're required to take this presumably forever. Where with psilocybin, it could be one dose, two doses, maybe three journeys to actually achieve something that actually addresses the underlying cause. It's not just trying to mask the way that it is sort of presenting itself in your life. it's actually going down to where the actual problem started and allowing you to see yourself from an outside perspective kind of like I'm no longer myself, I'm seeing myself from an outside world and I can take account of all the things that make myself up as this individual and say,

okay, those are the stupid things that I need to get rid of. Those are the things that, you know, they're holding me back. They're making me kind of react to the world. this way in a negative way. And with psilocybin, it really allows you to alter your brain chemistry. You're able to literally rewrite the way that the brain neural pathways ignite. So with that, I like to kind of think of the brain as like, whenever you have a bad habit, it becomes easier and easier to cope with your issues such as using drug addiction or

maybe, you know, having an outburst with a loved one or using a coping mechanism that is unhealthy. And it's kind of like it's a path that you walk over every day. And those habits become deeper and deeper entrenched into you every time you use it. Now, whenever you use psilocybin allows you to kind of make a new pathway to jump off that unhealthy path and kind of view it and think, wow, that's a stupid path. I need to kind of go at this differently. I need to stop, you know, doing these unhealthy things that are really controlling my life and just it makes you take account of yourself in a different way. I really do believe. And I think that the, I really do appreciate Oregon for seeing the potential of these therapeutics. It's, it's revolutionary. We're really at the

beginning of all of this. And I just think that, you know, the amount of businesses that are going to come out and the amount of people that are going to see the good that's going to come out of this is just huge. Yeah. That's really well said. I love the idea of the way you presented us with this visual idea of walking down this path. It just becomes deeper and deeper and deeper and you know, it's like, how many times are you going to hit that pothole? You're going to drive over every single day or maybe you should make a little whoop go right around that bad boy you know you're how many times you're going to blow that tire but we do it exactly do it all the time Tim like it's it's it's in some way I'm laughing because I do it like I'm not laughing at anybody's trauma like I get it

man you know how many tires up blowing it in that same damn bottle and finally when you go around it you're like I should have done that 40 years ago what's wrong exactly you know and it's so that's the therapy in a way and I think that by describing what it is, it allows people that haven't yet come down that path to realize there's a pothold. Like, hey, watch out for this pothole over here. It's like in Hawaii, there's all kinds of trails and people leave like a marker. You tie a little ribbon by a tree, and that way you know where the trail ends or you know there's a workaround right there. I want to stay on Oregon for a minute. How is it being accepted in Oregon? I've heard that there's like a couple areas that are kind of

embracing it and then there's some areas that aren't embracing it, which is probably par for the course, but as someone who's there, it does seem like Oregon has a really good model for it. How is it being embraced there? Is it like 50, 50, 20, 30, or how's it being felt there? I would say it would leans more towards the 80, 30 level. I would think that the rural areas really did kind of vote it out. It was a county by county basis. So every county got the option to opt out at the beginning of this year. There was another vote. And, We saw that all of the rural areas really just kind of said no. But the larger metropolitan areas such as Salem, Portland, Eugene, Ashland, all of those areas,

including the town that I live in Bend, they all voted it in hands down. It was stunning how many people really came through and wanted to see this implemented. And we already voted on it twice. So it was really showing us that this is validated and that people want it here in Oregon. And people have been wanting this for years. And these have lived in the dark ages for too long. People have seen these as taboo. You know, mycophobia is as a good term.

You know, everybody's kind of afraid of fungi. They can poison you. They can heal you. They can nourish you. You know, they're so powerful. And there is a respect to have for them. They are very, they're very powerful. And we should be careful with this power that we have taken.

And I would like Oregon to be kind of the, you know, looking, looked out from other states that may be legalizing in the future as kind of the route that they should take. I want them to look at us and say, okay, they're doing it right over there. This is, you know, the methodology that we should take leading forward. I want to see responsible and mature pathway taken here. There was kind of a wild, wild west thing that kind of happened with the beginning of cannabis legalization. And, you know, even currently there's tribulations and huge problems in the cannabis industry. And I don't want to see a cannabis 2.0. I want to see, you know, the psilocybin community come together, you know, and really kind of strive for something different.

This is different. And I want to see it treated as such. We should really strive to be the example that leads the rest of the states to kind of go forward and also reach for legalization. I would like to see this spread to everybody that needs access to it. I think that driving down prices out here would be a good start. I'm working with several nonprofits in my local area that will be trying to provide for people that suffer from PTSD and multiple ailments. to be able to provide them with free medicine. So I really think that this is something that is just, you know,

we're at the beginning of it and there's a lot of hope. And I think that we need to treat it, like I said, with respect and really kind of nurture this society, the society that we're trying to build. You know, we're really trying to, you know, be like the fungi, be a micro-rizo community that just, you know, helps each other. We feed nutrients across to each other and we, you know, try to help one another.

So I'm in contact. with almost all of the people that are really getting into this at the beginning, and we're just trying to help each other. We don't want to see that race to the bottom that's currently going on in the cannabis industry. It's a real shame to see these people that have put their whole entire lives into creating a product that is refined and tailor-made for the industry, and really just it's being sold for a drop-bottom price at this point, and there's no room for any type of profit.

And I just really see on motivation for new entrance into the market for cannabis at this point just because of all the problems that they're currently are. And I don't think that fungi should go that way. I think that we should try to strive for something different. We should learn from our mistakes in the past. At least you think we should. And I would like to try to hopefully kind of nurture that. myself. I would like to help anybody that would, you know, reach out to us that's maybe in this

community trying to start something of their own if they are struggling currently. Reach out to me. I would love to have a conversation and just talk more about this. Like I said, it's my favorite subject. So anybody that is out there trying to do something, it's not all competition. We can help each other and we can make this work. So definitely something to work for. Why do you think it is that cannabis is at this race to the bottom? Is it people strictly racing for profit or is it because there's been some big movers and shakers that got involved in it? Or is it some sort of cartels moving up? Like what is it?

Is it because there's just so many dispensaries or like is it the market is flooded? Why is it that it's such a race to the bottom do you think for cannabis? Well, I kind of have a couple of theories for that. I think that one of the main reasons is definitely competition, but I think that it is bad players. I think that it's people that are sitting on a large stockpile of their own product, that they're unable to move. And then it only takes one bad player to decide to, oh, well, let's just drop our price as low as possible to move this backstock of product. And they're not looking at it from another perspective. The other person down the road is able to move this product at that price point.

And why is that? It's most likely because maybe their packaging is better, or they have better community outreach, or they're just a better salesman. And it has nothing to do with the product itself. It has to do more with how they're positioning themselves to the community. If their product is at least as good as the other persons, they should be able to move it at the same price. And once a person, that bad player, decides to lower the price to that drop bottom level, that creates a domino effect and everybody else now has to start to kind of meet that price point. You know, you constantly hear somebody will come to you and say,

hey, well, I can get it down the road from somebody else for a lower price. And they're able to provide it to me. It's almost the same quality product. And then that creates a big problem for me. Now what do I do? I have to either one drop my price to meet them or I lose that customer. So I think that starting with dropping your prices is, probably the last thing you should do. You should probably, if you're sitting on a large stockpile

product, you should probably look at maybe donating it to, you know, one of the nonprofits. If you have a large stockpile and you have the ability to do something like that, it may be a lower price. You could, you know, find some sort of negotiation to where it could go to one of those other communities. Or you could potentially, you know, look at other reasons why your product might not be moving. But I really think that the race to the bottom, it is a shame. And there's probably multiple factors. Like you said, there could be the fact that the cartel and, you know, black market are able to provide at such a low drop bottom price that the industry feels

they have to meet that lower price standard. I think that the service centers are not really going to have to deal with that, though. An interesting thing with us is the price of the product is really going to be kind of the lower end of the bill. Whenever you show up to one of these service centers, since you're going to be locked into staying in the service center for the whole entire trip, you're going to be, you know, paying for the time that you're spending with the, you know, individual who is watching your trip sitter essentially.

So the price of the actual fungi will be almost a non-issue whenever you're actually paying for all the service charges that will be stacked on. top of that for being inside of the actual facility. So I'm not thinking we'll see that being as big of an issue on our end, but I think on the cannabis industry could also most likely is the fact that it's just too many growers right now. There's too many people out there that just have, it's easy to grow cannabis and there is, you know, so many warehouses that even I know of just in bend that are growing as much cannabis as they possibly can. There is no plan for slowing down their operations. They're just

assuming they're going to be able to sell everything that they grow. And there is just no really place for it to go. There's currently plans of potentially trying to see if we can outsource to Washington, maybe do cross-border sales. That's something that is exciting that might potentially happen. But obviously, there's a lot of things that have to change before that would be into effect. Um, yeah, like you said, there's multiple factors. It really comes down to, I think, though, bad players just not really recognizing that dropping their prices is, it's maybe good for them in a short term. But for the whole entire community in the long term, it's a bad play. And it's really going to in the long run effect them as well.

Uh, because once those prices drop, you really can't bring them back up. What, and what, what was a like, what's a good price and what's a low price? Like what was it at and where is it at now? And if you give us some price structures. Well, I think that a fair price for cannabis really at the beginning was around $13, $14 a gram sold to the customer. And that's after tax. Right now you're currently seeing, you know, cannabis go for $4 a gram, $6 a gram in the dispensary. I've seen the prices of edibles drop all the way down to $6 for 100 milligram edible that used to cost 30.

You know, it's really, I really don't see how some of these companies are able to survive at that low price point. They're probably shedding employees and trying to automate as much as possible, which is a shame as well. There's, you know, workers out there that need these jobs and have worked a long time to own their craft. So I just really think that, yeah, it's definitely a problem. The prices, I believe, I think that if you want to support your local dispensary, you shouldn't really fret a price point for really good cannabis. You know, if you're wanting to, you know, buy really good, but you should be paying a good price for it.

You shouldn't, you know, be able to go in there and buy it for cheaper than off the street. Because all that does is really just nurture the ability. for people to think, oh, well, I might as well just go get it off the black market as well, because, well, I can just, you know, go down to my buddy and get it for the same price. You know, so I think that, I think that, yeah, it's, I think a fair price is definitely around the $13 a gram price point and then up from there for better quality bud. $4 a gram is very cheap. If you can go in and buy a whole ounce for 60 bucks, really where is the profit margin for the grower at that point?

Yeah, I think that, you know, it's interesting to get to see what happens in a market like that. And for me, when I see it, you know, I automatically started thinking about parallel industries. And like, if I was growing cannabis, I'd be looking towards the wine industry. Like, you know, why not have a winery type of facility or. people could come tour the gardens a little bit. And you come have a little bit of lunch over here. Here's a special thing you can have. A little chakouterie box of different kind of weed.

You know what I mean? Like if you can begin to market it in a way that is an experience versus, you know, maybe that comes down to customers too. You know, there's a guy that walks into the liquor store that maybe he wants to get an eighth of jack versus someone that wants to go to a winery and have a bottle and have an experience. but I think there's room for that there. And that may be something that could extend, you know,

into the world of psilocybin as well. Because you had mentioned that there's, in Oregon, it's going to be somewhat of a therapy-based place where you go to a laboratory, not a laboratory, but a facility. Yes, a service center. A service center, thank you. And is it going to be, are there cutouts for like a home practitioner, or is it specifically for a, what did you call it again, a service center?

A service center. A service center would have to be a brick and mortar location. It couldn't be done out of your home currently in this legislation. I believe that in the future, they'll probably be the ability for, you know, facilitators to be freelance and maybe even visit people in their own homes and facilitate, you know, through that method. but currently I think that there's there's a lot of different you know potential as far as service centers and a lot of different businesses that could be thrown up around this.

I think you're going to see at the beginning, you know, your simple mom and pops go in, get it done quick shop that, you know, it's a low price. You go in and you're able to do a couple hour trip for a fair price and just, you know, kind of get it done. And then there's also going to be the higher end service centers where you'll go in and pay upwards of $3,000, $4,000 a trip. It might be a multiple day thing where you'll have multiple therapy sessions, multiple microdose classes. You might attend yoga therapy at the beginning of the morning, have breath work. There'll be hot rock therapy on site, massages, stuff like that.

You know, there's really infinite amount of things that could really be thrown into this. You could do overnight stays. There's the ability to do outdoor settings. I think that one of the big business potentials that maybe people are even overlooking is microdose facilities. So they recently changed one of the rule sets. So at the beginning, it was a minimum of an hour. You had to go into the facility. and if you were even to take a microdose, you had to stay in the facility for a full hour.

They've recently changed it to where if you're taking a microdose level of psilocybin, the first class would be an hour because that includes the integration time. And then after that, any other time this customer comes back, a repeat customer for a microdose, they're only have to stay for a half hour, which perfectly fits into, let's say, a yoga class. you know, if you had a class of 30 individuals show up early in the morning and everybody takes a microdose and then they attend a 30 minute yoga session that takes care of the time

that they're required to stay in the facility. And in a microdose level, a facilitator is able to keep track of up to 10 people. A macro dose level, they're only able, it's one person per individual. But microdose is a little different. They can have, 10 person per setting. So if you had a class of 30, you have three facilitators. Each one of them is also a yoga instructor. They administer the psilocybin to the customers. And then they do their class. After that, they leave another group of 30 people come in on a schedule. And the beauty of this is you could even set it up as, let's say, a subscription type thing. Every month, you know, you're set up for three classes out of the week. You show up on those days.

and you take your micro dose, and it would be set up to be kind of like with your microdosing schedule. Whatever days you typically take three days on, three days off, five days on, five days off. However you do it, you could show up for classes on those days. And I just think that, yeah, that's a really great model that I think that nobody's currently doing, at least that I see, that would be one very profitable and I think very popular as well. I think that combining micro doses with any type of breath work, yoga, maybe even float tanks, stuff like that would be very interesting. Any buddy entrepreneurial out there, I heed you to, you know, I would really want you to go out there and kind of, you know, get some thought to it. There's multiple things out there that this could really do benefit to.

I think that even the uptake and creativity, you know, do a micro dose and painting class, you know, have people, come in and take a little micro dose and everybody sits there and learns how to do oil paintings for an hour. I think that would be very fun. Yeah, I agree. I know that here in Hawaii, like Kaiser partners, like if you if you have Kaiser as a as a provider, then they will pay for your gym membership if you go X amount of time. So I could see providers beginning to, you know, maybe pay facilities or give them a little bit of a cut if if the people under their care go and use that. And it seems to me that, you know, the natural progression for psilocybin or psychedelics or entheogens is going to move from medical treatment to medical to optimization. Because I think

that people could go in, have a microdose and it could be a creativity class. It could be an athletic class. But once you begin to move past this idea that you're healed, I think the next progression is, okay, well, how do I become the best I can be? That seems to me what happens to a lot of people that I speak to that are like, I used to have this problem. And now I don't have that problem anymore. But now I'm doing these other five things that I never thought of before. And it's it's almost like you're not only fixing some of the problems with the negative feedback loop, but you're optimizing the way you thinking when you do that, you begin to live a different lifestyle. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on. It sounds to me like one of the reasons Oregon is setting up the rules the way they are is they're

trying to find a good way to tax the business so that they can get some of the revenue back, which is a logical thing to do. And I think that it's going to be a boon for them. I would imagine that not only would you be able to tax it on some level, but you'll also see a huge benefit to mental health, which is health care, longevity. Do you see those same things being a boon for Oregon as far as tax, but mental health and health care and stuff like that? Oh, yes, yes.

I see the in the upcoming years we're going to really kind of see this paid evidence. It probably won't show the results at first. It'll probably maybe be five, six years before we really start to see the fruits of this law change really come into effect. The thing about this is it's not just going to change overnight. People aren't all of a sudden going to be cured of their ailments and the world just all of a sudden become a beautiful place out here in Oregon just because it's law changed.

But over the long run, I think it's going to be massively beneficial to everybody. And then like you said, after, you know, you have gone through the ringer of, you know, the deep dives and you've addressed your deep causes of, you know, what's affecting you, there is a maintenance aspect to this that could be tapped into, you know, come in, you know, once a year, twice a year to just, you know, get that feeling back, you know, help with your serotonin uptake a little bit and kind of tap back into that feeling that assisted you at the beginning. So, you know, I'd really like to see, you know, stories of people after they've gone through the sessions.

I hope that, you know, there's podcasts that come out about this. I'd love to maybe even start something of our own that after people have consumed our product to after six months, do a check-in with them, and then a year later do another check-in with an individual and kind of just, you know, have them tell the story about their trip. And then the second one, have them kind of talk to us about how it changed their lives and the effects that they still see in their everyday life from it. You know, so definitely, definitely some cool things that are going to be happening soon. It's so amazing to me.

You know, I was reading one of your posts about mushrooms in Chernobyl and how, like, the fungus kind of comes in and it cleans everything up and kind of recreates an environment where things can grow. It breaks down and rots the things, you know, or it breaks down the rot a little bit. I know that's not exactly right. But I'm saying that because it seems to me the same way that the fungus can come in and clean up a nuclear disaster that the fungus like psilocybin is coming up and cleaning a human disaster of the mind. Like we have this idea that people are numbers and we have this corporate rule that is just like, get out there, we're 50 hours or 60 or 90 hours a week and you kick all the money up top to us and the government is in bed with the corporations and the corporation. There's all this corruption out there. And me too, I'm corrupted too. I mean, I'm not taking myself out of this.

Like, I make tons of mistakes and I've done a lot of dumb things. But it seems to me that the same way the mushroom is cleaning up our environment, we're seeing the mushroom come in and clean up our mental environment. And you can see it beginning to happen with these testimonials and people that are changing their lives and finding a better path and making a new version of themselves. Isn't it strange? That can't be a coincidence, right? No, it's just the power.

throw the fungi, you know, it really is. It, it unlocked something in your mind that just, it allows you to look at things from a different perspective. It really does. Whenever you're allowed to get yourself out of the picture, you're allowed to get your, your own personal baggage unloaded and just look at things from a completely different angle. It really changes how you see the world. It really does. It's an indescribable feeling. If anybody who's taken mushrooms, everybody knows you can't describe it in words. It's just something that you have to experience. And like you said, it cleans up your mind.

It really, it's kind of like it categorizes everything into your mind. And you see kind of all the things that are hindrances and positives. And you can kind of take account for all of them and, you know, just clear them out of the way. You know, here's the things that I want to keep. And here's the things that I don't. So same thing with the cleanup of Chernobyl. whenever it's a piece of wood that is, you know, infected with radiation and the fungus is able to go in there and cause that piece of wood to disintegrate quicker. And now that piece of what is gone and the fungi, I'd have to do a little bit more research, but I think that even the fungi maybe even be edible after this, even though it has, you know, existed on a radiation infested piece of wood.

So I wouldn't want to be the test guinea pig to eat those, but there definitely have to be some research put into that. But I think that, yeah, there's a lot of potential for fungus to do some really good in the world. Not to mention radiation cleanup, but the cleanup of oil spills and the recycling of plastics and crop management. We waste so much of our crops every year and just the amount of waste that comes out of agricultural farm is staggering. And if we can convert that possibly into edible mushrooms, why not do it? You know, it's a great way to maybe use some of that waste. Yeah, there's so much potential for mushrooms. It's insane.

Yeah. I love that we live in such a technological world in some ways. Like, it's so cool that I can talk to you right now. We can discuss these ideas. And a lot of the times technology uses biomimicry to come up with what they say are new ideas, but they're really just trying to copy nature. And it seems that a lot of our models, whether it's business or a lot of isms are built on this idea of nature. But when I think about mushrooms, I think of, like, the way the Haifa grows.

And I think the way that, like, the mushroom can break down different boundaries or break down different substances. And, you know, it just seems to me, like, it's a better model. Like, we're trying to grow together. And it makes me the same way I look at mushrooms is like a superorganism. And maybe this is because I'm eating too many mushrooms. But, you know, I'm beginning to see that, like, we are like the mushroom. Like, we as a group of people are like a superorganism, the same way that even though there's

one fruiting body of a mushroom, it's part of a super organism. And if you can begin to see that, like, it changed. changes your outlook on life. It does give you this objective observer look at your life and the people around you and you can recognize yourself and other people. And like, this is a big part of therapy that we've been trying to get through to people. And it seems that that aspect of understanding that you are everybody else, that in you resides the same problems as the other people, even though you may not describe them the same way. And like, we just begin going down that road, it really is a therapeutic avenue. Maybe let's jump to, you would be, you had spoke at the

beginning of this conversation. Like we, maybe I can ask you what was it about your initial, you know, foray into the mushroom? Like, what got you to be where you were, where you are now? Okay. So, uh, I'm going to go down that rabbit hole. Yeah, let's do that. Um, well, it all started quite a while back. So let me start with my father started a landscaping business whenever I was young. And we worked together from whenever I was 14 all the way up into my, you know, up into my late 20s. So basically I would go out every summer during the season and we would work hard together and just mollons do the landscaping thing. And one day out of nowhere, he got very angry with me. And I could not explain it. It was just off put with me for some reason.

There's problems. It seemed like he was always giving me the worst work he possibly could and just very shrugged with me. Wouldn't respond to me like he normally was. So at the end of the day, I asked me, what's going on? And I was 17 at the time. He looked at me and said, you know, I know you stole those mushrooms out of my bedroom. And I looked at him with a straight face.

I said, no, sir, I did not steal any mushrooms from you. I've never tried mushrooms. And it was the truth. I hadn't. And, you know, he blamed me for that whole year. You know, it was a big piece of content in the household. You know, every time he would see a mushroom or something, or we'd be cooking something with mushrooms, it would remind him of that.

And, you know, it would be a problem. So, lo and behold, you know, about four years later, we're out on a backpacking trip, and he'd forgotten all about it, so did I. And we're hiking out there in the middle of beautiful day. And we're hiking through Glacier National Park out in Montana. And he reaches in his pocket of the... these old pants that he hadn't worn in forever. And out comes this bag of mushrooms that he had blamed me for three years for stealing.

So he looks at me and he apologizes and, you know, he says, well, you're 20 years old. You're close enough. Let's go ahead and let's split this bag while we're up here. You know, they're pretty old. So let's go and let's take them all. You know, they're probably not as strong as they were. So it was a pretty good size bag. There was probably 15 grams of mushrooms in there.

So we ate the whole thing. You know, think of they're not going to be that strong. wrong and we're walking along and they start kicking in halfway up and I'd never tried mushrooms. Like I said, I didn't steal them from them and I'd never tried them personally myself. So, you know, it's just an amazing experience. I bonded with my father and, man, I went fishing at one point on the come up and just that fish was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen, I swear. And I felt terrible, so I let it go, of course, you know, and just started realizing, you know,

the power of these things, man, they make you feel connected to the world. and, you know, to my father and just like, he apologized for blaming me for stealing those from me. And he felt so bad. And there's like a big moment where he, you know, just, you know, he brought up all the times that he, you know, was mad at me or, you know, blame me for doing something that I'd never done, you know, so it was a great experience. And then later on, I tried them more. And I through later experiences, I go over my own anxieties. I was the shyest person in high school. I would not talk to girls. I would, you know, shy away from social events and I was not the guy that would go out to parties and, you know, yucked it up with friends and all that. You know, I'd go home

and play video games or, you know, be kind of a hermit. But through those mushrooms, man, I have these thoughts of, man, maybe this is the only time I'm going to have these experience. Maybe this is the only life I'm going to live. And maybe there is something after this. But in case there's not, man, I better live this life to the most I can here and really just. just, you know, meet all those people and take those risks and just have as much fun as I can with this. And, man, since then, I've met so many great people and I've just had so many amazing experiences that I would have not had the chance to have if I didn't get away from myself. You know, it was really, I was my own worst enemy. I didn't want to get out of my shell. And it

really did. It took away all those feelings of anxiety that people weren't going to accept me or that I wasn't going to be, you know, loved by my group for my peers. So after that, man, I've just really butted and I probably wouldn't be here today talking you on this podcast if it weren't for that. That's such a beautiful story. I love the fact that you and your dad just tear into like a quarter each on your first time. Yeah. They definitely were probably a little bit weaker.

If I were to take a quarter of fresh mushrooms today, I'd probably be over the moon. We probably wouldn't have even found our camping trip, our camping location if they had been full strength. But yeah, it was an amazing experience. And we took them in the middle of the day. So we got to see the sun go down. Nice. We're able to be sober enough to be able to find all of our wood just in time to be able to light the campfire that night. And yeah, it was just an amazing experience.

We ended up coming down around midnight. And just the next day, I woke up and I was like, wow, I don't feel any come down from this. It's not like alcohol. It's not like that stupid feeling that you feel after, you know, being sedated. It's, it's, I feel clean and I feel like I'm happier today for some reason, which was, you know, a rarity, you know, for me back then. So definitely, uh, the power of these things are untold. And I think that, uh, I don't want to make people think that these are a panacea or that they can cure everything, you know, because a lot of people, I don't want to be the snake oil salesman on the side of the road selling you some, a bad bag of gifts here, you know, uh, but I do think that what they can, do is address the root cause of a multitude of things. I think that depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction to drugs, you know, bad coping mechanisms, they're all related to something in the mind that's all

tied to one thing. And it's, it's probably trauma, something that you've experienced in your life that, you know, has affected you in a certain way that has caused you to create these coping mechanisms that are not healthy. And personally myself, I believe that it was the fact that my parents had broken up at a young age and I was ferried back and forth between Montana and Oregon. I never really created strong bonds with friends or girlfriends. So it was like everything was temporary. So that made me not really go out and seek long-term relationships with my peer members. And through mushrooms, I kind of realized that. And now I think that, you know, seeking out those relationships is very important in my life.

I really think that that's kind of a key to life is having good people around you and making sure that everybody around you is happy and that you're happy as well. So I think that mushrooms can help you facilitate that in a positive way. It's not a chemical that's going down your throat every single day that, like I said, as a band-aid just covering up the problem, you can actually have the realization of what the problem was and address it. Yeah, you know, hearing that story and hearing your analysis of all these different things that are happening to people and the long-term consequences they cause, whether it's PTSD,

anxiety, depression. And when I take that in conjunction with the story of you bonding with your father and him apologizing to you for thinking these things about you. And you probably saying, you probably having a lot of relief for him doing that. And just thinking about that bond, you know, it makes me begin to think that part of the problem we're having in society is this prolonged adolescence. And we're not learning how to fully use our mind in a way that is beneficial for a child becoming an adult.

And when you can't use your tools effectively, you lash out, you're angry. And the more that I think about this, you know, I think in the future what we're going to see is a, I always quote this book, The Island by Aldous Huxley, because in that book,

there's a rite of passage for a child when they become an adult, the same way there's a kintiniara, the same way there's a bar mitzvah. You know, these particular rights of passage mark a point in a child's life where they have a transition into adult And I think that that is what's happening on psilocybin is that you're beginning to see the way you are.

And when you do that, you can change yourself. And maybe this is, you know, maybe we're having these rights of passage in our 20s and our 30s and our 40s. Maybe that we should have been having these in when we're turned 13 or something like that. And society might be looking different because you can definitely make the case that there has been an absence of ritual. There has been an absence of spirituality. There has been an absence of connection and rights of passage for, you know, maybe since, maybe the erosion came when we started moving into the, you know, the industrial revolution. Like that's when things kind of stopped happening.

So maybe we're getting back to that. The more than I think about it, the more I think that that's probably the case. What's your take on that? Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting take for sure. I think that if you look back at ancient societies, one of the interesting things is these were reserved for the leaders and the thought provokers, you know, at least the leader was at least advised by someone who had taken these spiritual journeys. Right. At one point. So, and we see the exact opposite to today and today's culture.

It would be insane to an individual if you heard, oh, the president is out, you know, on these long ayahuasca journeys or, taking magic mushrooms at length to try to come up with ideas for how to run the country. But, you know, it's not that crazy of a thought whenever you really think about it. I think that the way that society deems these things as taboo is a real problem, because I don't want to say that everybody should take these, but I imagine what culture would be like if more leaders did have at least one spiritual, psychedelic journey in their past. I wonder if some of them would even maybe not go towards becoming a politician after having some of these journeys, if they would change their mind on the

whole perspective as a whole. I'd be curious to see what, you know, a leader that has had some of these journeys would, the decision-making processes would be compared to somebody who hadn't, especially whenever it comes to matters of, you know, war. and you know atrocities and how to you know deal with foreign politics and just relationship matters between countries like it would be stunning to see you know a world that was altered by these chemicals and it be more accepted as a whole in society I think that it would be it would be very beneficial if more people did take this out of the dark realm and kind of integrate this into you know

something that, you know, everybody should maybe experience at least once if you have the mental faculties to handle it. I don't think that anybody that has any type of, you know, history of mental breakdowns or possibility of schizophrenia should maybe, you know, maybe look at not doing something like this. There's other options that you can potentially take if that, if you are that type of individual. It's definitely not for everyone. But I think that the benefits outweigh the negatives massively, especially on a society level. I think that, yeah, the world would be a much different place if everybody had tried these at least a couple of times. Yeah, I can imagine someone who's deep in debt sitting down with the manager of the bank on a couple, you know, on a large dose of MDMA and trying to come to a, you know what I mean?

You have two world leaders that come together. Yeah, Putin and Biden sit down. all right you guys both going to take each this giant dose of MDMA we're going to solve the problems see you guys tomorrow you know i'm sure yeah you come out they come out hugging each other like oh we got all figured out you know we're being a bunch of dummies man yeah there's there's two there's two options either one they lose their ego and it's a great option or they go deeper into their egos and they think they're gods you know there's always uh the people that do that I've witnessed both in my, I've seen people that have done both.

You know, you can get the positive benefits where you have the ego loss and you become a better person, but then there's also the select few that I've seen that they take it and they think that, oh man, I'm the best and I'm a God. And, you know, there are those people. Yeah, yeah, that does happen. I, you know, if you look back to the 60s. And I think that that is on some level what people are afraid of is a new Jones town. or some sort of new Manson family or something like that.

The truth is it's probably inevitable. There probably will be something like that at some point in time. But it doesn't mean that it's wrong to continue to move down that path. You know, I think people are right to at least be, there I say, leery of that. But, you know, it's a fascinating thing to think about. You know, I was just thinking we were talking about rights of passage, and we were talking about, you know, ancient use of it. Can you tell people a little bit of the article that you recently put out about the Aztecs and the ancient mycology?

Maybe you could just drop that on some people. Yeah. So in Aztec culture, it's very common to find these statues in Mesoamerica. It's a figurine of a man that has a mushroom helmet. It's either a helmet or his head is in the shape of a mushroom. And these are all deity figures. And like I kind of touched on earlier, these chemicals were reserved for the leaders or the shaman of the society. It wasn't usually the commoner who would have access to these, at least not maybe during ritualistic ceremonies, maybe once or twice a year.

But the leaders and the shaman would have access to these at all times. and they would usually go on very deep journeys to become closer to their god figures. And I think that there's good evidence of being a positive benefit in their society. The way that they would nurture their culture, you know, it was very, you know, it was more connected to nature. There was no, you know, waste of certain products. I think that also a connection to, you know, just nature as a whole is can always just be a good thing. I think that they had definitely something figured out as far as doing it is a ritualistic thing. And cultures have been doing this forever.

As far back as we can look, there has been records of people taking psychedelic drugs, not only mushrooms, but other, you know, chemicals to alter their state of. perception. And it's through these altered state of perception that they were able to come up with some amazing revolutionary ideas of their times. So who's to know what some of those ideas may have been? But, you know, maybe the aqueducts came out of those trip sessions or, you know, some of the ideas that they had about time and their religious beliefs. Obviously, you know, sacrificing people was one of the offshoots that probably was needed to be avoided. But, you know, they definitely had some things figured out that we don't even understand today. And I think that, you know, like I said, their leaders being, having access to these was probably a benefit in their culture.

Having a leader that was empathetic to the people and could look at things from an outside perspective that probably you wouldn't come across not under the influence of these drugs. I think that just for creativity and the ability to solve a complex problem, there would be massive benefits from having these introduced to your leaders. So I think that there's a reason that every society, you know, as far back as we could look has used these. And it's only till recent time that we have, you know, classified these and made these things illegal, which I think that it's a mistake.

And it's obviously not had any benefit. It's only put millions and millions of dollars into the pockets of people who were able to benefit from it illegally and, you know, shied away from any benefit that could possibly be gained from it, any research that could have potentially been done. and like I said, the evidence of, you know, Mesoamericans doing this, ancient Egyptian cultures, you know, it goes all the way back to some of the first beings that we've ever found on this planet. The ice man that was discovered back in the early 2000, he had, you know, psychedelic chemicals on him, you know, in a place of significance. It was in his, you know, pocket, basically, you know, or. his form of a loincloth pocket. So it was something that, you know, he was probably using at the time in a ritualistic form, you know, I think that in these, these share close ties to the human brain.

There's whenever psilocybin is absorbed into the brain, there's a serotonin receptor that actually accepts this molecule perfectly. It's like a key into a lock. And why would that exist if it wasn't meant for it to happen? You know, there's, you know, we've evolved with these chemicals. I think that it goes beyond, you know, even our evolutionary past. It was something that was probably, you know, consumed as far back as history can go. So the benefits are untold. I think that we need to kind of get back to the old ways and maybe, you know, kind of start to look at the benefits that were taken from the ancients

and start to implement those into our modern-day society. Yeah, I'm reminded of a Terence McKenna wrote a book called The Archaic Revival. And he talks about when, you know, when societies or cultures get into trouble, they look back to a time where things were at a point and working. You know, and he talks about how, excuse me, you know, the idea of us taking mushrooms, the idea of us being in tune with nature was when things seemed to work pretty. well. We've gotten so far away. Just look at the idea of specialization. Like if you look at doctors or surgeons, everyone's like a specialist or even in the world of business or a lawyer. Like these people are all specialists. And we're so specialized that it's like a world of abstraction. We don't even know, like I don't even know the language that some of these specialists use. And it's, it's just,

it's so strange to me to live in a world where people are not. not only in relationship to each other, but exactly the same, only 100% different, if that kind of makes sense. We're not even speaking the same language, even though we're using the same words half the time. We're barely able to communicate. We're so deep in this world of abstraction. But I do think that if psilocybin is creating, or these entheogens and these different types of psychedelics are bringing back. this idea of spirituality. And it's it's almost like we're rediscovering ourselves. Sometimes I think this whole idea about the alien is just us recognizing ourselves for the first

time. Like we haven't noticed ourselves so we feel like we're like this alien. But when you do take a large dose of psilocybin or, you know, any sort of in theogen, you find yourself almost in communion with the earth. It's almost like the earth is talking to you in a way. It's almost like you realize, oh, I'm part of that. this thing. And that gets us back to the idea of a superorganism. And I do think we're moving back in a way to where we're trying to figure out where we're going. Like we've gotten off the trail. We've gotten off the path and we've got to backtrack a little bit and go back and find our way. I'm hopeful for the future. I really see it, even though there's so much turmoil and there's so

much talk about war and there's so much talk about, you know, whether it's Trump or Biden or politics or all this stuff. You know, I think that they're all just distrable. I think people are beginning to kind of drop out of the narrative. And that's a big problem for people who are in charge. And they're resorting to scare tactics. Like, oh, we're all going to die. There's a nuclear war coming. This person's gay.

Don't you get this person gay? They're just trying to scare everybody. Like, who cares? We're not going to war. There's not going to be a nuclear war. Who cares if that person's gay? Let them be on a can. Who cares?

Like, none of that matters. But the only way the people in positions of authority can get our attention is to just wave this big mask and put on that scary mask and try to scare you. People aren't buying it anymore. I love it. I'm really helpful for that. What is your take on the forward progression of culture in this time of false scarcity? Yeah. So I definitely think that it's going to be beneficial in that regards as well.

I think that, you know, everybody is kind of all in their own, you know, ecosystem right now. We're all afraid of this, that, the other. We're all kind of just, you know, focused on one thing, you know, and we're all focused on our own little lives and we don't, you know, we don't, I think that we've lost kind of our ability to be like a, you know, like, I don't know, we've lost our communal ways. We've lost the ability to, you know, like, when was the last time you really talked to your neighbor? You know, when was the last time that you, you know, went out and met someone new?

You know, or, you know, why do we let all these problems that are disagreements get in our way? Why can't we just talk about the things that we do agree upon? I think that with mushrooms, especially if you've done them in the past, not under the influence currently, but whenever you look back at your previous experiences with him, you will have the tools to be able to, you know, maybe approach things differently. You know, I feel myself every day whenever I meet someone new or, you know, something happens in my life that is, you know,

maybe difficult. I can approach it from a slightly different mindset, you know, and I think that any individual who takes these in the future, you know, as far as society goes, It's going to help, you know, with all these problems that we're currently seeing. I would like to see some case studies as far as like, just like, does this really, you know, make you more empathetic to your neighbor or to a person that is not connected to you? You know, one of the big things is we're known for being a war in culture.

Everything is about, you know, scarcity. we're trying to compete over, you know, anything that might be needed for to run our society, any type of, you know, elements or whatever, you know, space, what have you. And I think that with looking at it from a different mindset, if you've ever tripped on mushrooms, you might be able to look at the other person's perspective and think that there is no need for competition. Maybe a better route to take would be, you know, helping these people and coming to an agreement to where there's a fair trade or you know there is no competition maybe if like i would i'd like to see a world where you know there is no scarcity maybe we all

realize that we're all hoarding all of these elements and all of these resources and uh you know we're we're making it to where the lower end of society can't have access and you know the upper end can but there's no real reason to do that. It's all selfishness and a bad mindset. It's the wrong neural pathway, and maybe we should write a different one. Yeah, I agree. And maybe that's what's happening.

I often try to look at the macro to understand the micro or vice versa. And I think that if we look at what's happening, just reading the literature, whether it's neurofeedback imaging when people are tripping or whether it's anecdotal stories or whether it's a personal experience. You know, we see a pattern of rethinking the way we have lived our lives. And I think the more people that take mushrooms, society begins to rethink the way they're living their life. And when enough people do it, you know, there seems to be, at some, point in time, there's a critical mass. The same way the grasshopper becomes the locust, so too do we as individuals become the wisdom of the crowd. When there's enough of us coming together,

we almost change the way we think. And when we do that, we begin to see new possibilities become active in the world. And a lot of times those can manifest as a communism or a socialism or a capitalism, but maybe we're on the cusp of a new loveism or some sort of new isome. Something different. Yes, something different. I think that if you would ask a lot of people in this space, how they think about the future, they would say, I think we're getting ready for something different. And it's very difficult to describe something different because you don't have a neural

pathway to do it yet until it happens. But I see it. Like, I feel it. And I've heard other people use language that explains a. future that is undescribable. And that excites me. I think with, and all you need to do is look at the world of chat GPT or, you know, this AI coming out. And, you know, there's all these people like, where we're going to stop this thing, man? It's changing. Like, yeah, that's awesome. Right. It's changing everything. It's so cool. And people are afraid to change. And rightfully so, if you have a lot to lose,

you're afraid of change. But everybody's got a lot to lose. Everybody has a lot. But I think more than what people have to lose is what people have to gain. And I think that that is something that we can be focused on is not what we're about to lose, but look what we're about to gain. And I think that everybody could just turn that corner. We're really in for a world that is not only more beautiful than you imagine, but more beautiful than you can imagine. Is that too optimistic? Yeah. I think that it is a very optimistic outlook, but it's a good, it's a good outlook. And I feel the same way. I think that one of the reasons that, you know, it's so hard for people to change these things is because we get comfortable. You know, the way that we do things, it's, it's becomes so easy to just keep doing the same thing

every single day. And why change it because it's, it's not broke. But in reality, it is. You know, if your life could benefit in so many ways, if you changed certain aspects of it to, you know, get away from, you know, certain things that are not benefiting you in any way, man, in any form. And I think one of the big things is, you know, at least for me personally, is, you know, probably, you know, admittedly not doing, you know, the things that I should when I should, you know, being, you know, maybe a little bit lackadaisical on certain things or certain subjects. But whenever I look back on it, you know, I realize that that's just a big stressor for me. You know, I'm creating more stress than it's worth. And if I just get that thing done, it's done and over. with and now I don't have to think about it anymore. And it's it's about getting out of that comfort

and just you know, the uncomfortable things are the things that you just need to finish and just get done with. So and I think that, you know, a lot of people avoid those things because they're afraid of that change, especially whenever it comes to the big things in life. So. Yeah. I think fear is a big one. I know that for me, for a long time, well, for the last probably 10 years. I've been struggling with this idea of fear and overcoming it. And, you know, I've learned that the things that you see in the world that bother you are things about yourself that you need to work on. And for me, fear was a big one. Like I kept seeing like, oh, this is, this person's weak or it just made me realize like, I'm weak. I'm the person that needs to work on fear. And I think the world is

telling everybody, whatever the world is saying to you and the way it says it to you is whatever you're afraid of, like, that's the thing you got to work on. So if you're afraid of quitting your job, if you're afraid of leaving a relationship, if you're afraid of not being yourself, whatever it is you're afraid of, face it, and your life will get better, right? And it's really hard to do. Even if I may be afraid of leaving something that you think is silly, but that's irrelevant. It doesn't matter what someone else thinks, and that's part of getting over it.

Don't worry about what the other people think. If something's bothering you, if you're afraid of something, start little, start walking closer to it, and eventually you'll get the courage to face it and you'll beat it. And I know it sounds crazy. People think they have these giant dragons in their life, and maybe they are giant. But I promise you, the more you begin to face that demon,

the more you face that dragon, whether it's just one step out of time, whether it's looking at it out in the eye, or whether it's finally severing the ties, you'll get bigger, you'll get better and you'll get stronger, and you'll become the better version of yourself. And I think that's how we make a better world, is every individual starts facing their fears on some level,

even if it's a small step. If everyone begins to do that, the world becomes a lot less scary. And the first step to that is identifying what the thing is that you're afraid of. And I think that therapy, it does get you towards that. But you could take the strongest individual you ever met and introducing to these chemicals in a therapeutic session, and they will crumble.

They will break down their walls, and they will say things that they might not have admitted and not let their personal hangups get in the way. I think that it's really kind of a fast forward on therapy. It really is. It unleashes things and uncovers things at a much quicker rate. I think that, you know, I'm really curious to see the amount of methodologies and things that people develop for these

therapy sessions like, you know, what works, what doesn't, you know, what's the best thing for somebody who's, you know, maybe a violent alcoholic. What are the best, you know, tactics to take with that type of individual as opposed to, you know, what's the best therapy session for somebody who's suffering from severe depression? You know, how do we undoing? cover that underlying thing that's causing that depression in their life. You know, there's, it's, it's really going to be interesting to see all the things that, you know, all the stories and things that just really come out here in the next couple of probably months.

We're probably looking at, you know, the first people to consume will probably later on this summer we're hoping. So that makes me think of this. Like I want to, as you were saying that, and we're talking about plant medicines. I want to tie that to what we were talking about with the cannabis industry. and then that's going to lead to the psilocybin industry. What if the plant medicine is teaching us, hey, this isn't for sale.

I'm going to drive this price down to zero. Yeah, people should grow it and just give it away. Like, you know, maybe that's what the, maybe that's what the plants are saying. Like, yeah, you can, here, I'm going to, I'm going to tease you guys. You can make millions of dollars. Just kidding. You got to give it away.

You know, same thing for mushrooms. Like, you know, people are desperately trying to find ways to patent. Hey, I'm going to put this little chemical over here. I'm going to have this crazy retreat over here. And I'm not knocking retreats or making money or I'm not knocking any of that. I think people should do all of it. Do all of it. I'm for all of it.

But maybe that's the message is like, but it's also free. You know what I mean? Maybe that's what we as a culture need to understand is that, hey, this whole idea of money, this whole idea of making a profit on something is the problem. Maybe we should be trying to move that bound. of money out of the way and let's just judge people on each other. Like let's just get back. And maybe that talks to what you were saying about getting back to a community.

And more than I think about it, like, yeah, like weed is being driven down to zero. And like, but that's not, it doesn't have to be a bad thing unless you're measuring profit. If we're using mushrooms to measure mental wellness, then I don't know if a financial component goes with mental wellness. Because I think of the finance is causing the mental illness. You know what I mean? Maybe that's the message. What do you think?

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think a large reason of why some of these chemicals were made illegal in the first place was for profit, you know, seeking. And obviously from the pharmaceuticals, they don't want pharmaceuticals. They don't want them to become legalized. Right. And I think that, you know, there's just, I think that, yeah. The reason that it, I think that profit is definitely the wrong metric to look at. Right, right.

Whenever we're trying to think of how to weigh this, because if you really want to see how well this is doing for our community, you really want to weigh this on how many people is it helping. Yeah, totally. How many people come out the other end of this as actual patients who have been affected in a positive manner? So the financial component of it, it's a byproduct, potentially, but it shouldn't be the end goal. Right. I think that what should be focused on is making sure this is accessible to people. It shouldn't be only reserved for the people who can afford a $3,000, a night trip, or, you know, be able to go for multiple nights to, you know, just simply take a single dose.

I think that you should be able to go in and this should be either one covered by your medical plan or somehow it be free. So like I said, we're working with a couple of nonprofits. One of our plans in the future is we're going to sell all of the mushrooms that look perfectly in our product and our packaging, you know, all the tops, you know, any broken pieces, any pieces that are, you know, stems and just like small pieces of caps and all that, Those can be separated out for donations to these nonprofits. You know, ways to drive down prices for people who actually need the medicine, I think, should be implemented. The person who's just coming in to take a trip or has no medical diagnosis, sure, those people, they can be charged. But I think that the person who really, really needs it, the person who's been struggling for maybe most of their life with this issue, taking medication, that are poisoning their system and having no positive effect,

that have nothing but a terrible outcome for if they try to get off of them, they have these terrible withdrawal symptoms and this, that, and the other. I think that these people should have a better access to it. And I think that profits should not be the main thing for those people. I don't think that we should be trying to make as much money out of them. And the thing with these chemicals is it's not like a patent, pill that somebody takes every single day and they come in and now they're they're on a drip line for me they have to come in and they have to buy this product all the time they're they can

achieve the same level of you know benefit through one two trips so yeah that's probably a big reason why you don't see the pharmaceutical culture really trying to jump into this because they don't see a vehicle for large scale profits they don't really see a way to to one, they can't patent an organism. You know, they'd have to go in and they'd have to synthesize synthetically manufacture psilocybin and alter it in some way to be able to make it patentable. And then if you're only taking one pill or three pills a year, where really is the profit margins for them?

So, you know, that's probably why they're not jumping into it full steam. But I think my main motivation is I want to help people the way that it's helped me and the way I've seen it help other people. You know, I've seen this have a massive effect on people's lives. It's completely changed people. Like you see them, you know, addicted, and they are near drop bottom. They're the worst point of their lives. And they start microdosing.

And then a year goes by and you see them again. And they're, you know, have a new job and they're clean cut. And they look happy and healthy. And they've gained weight back from, you know, the addiction problem. that they had and it's like wow this is it changed their whole entire life and you talk to them about it and they tell like oh i wake up every morning and i just feel more motivated and i i looked i had a couple of big doses and i saw the mistakes that i made and i don't make those mistakes anymore you know and it's it's it's really motivating to see a positive change and actually see that this

helps it's not like uh you know it's not at this point is definitely not just uh a couple of people These really do have an effect on a lot of people. Almost everybody that I've seen take them benefits in one way or another. And the people who have, let's say, a bad trip, it only extends through the bad trip. They don't have negative consequences after. It's not like they go and they have a bad trip. And then for the rest of their life, they're negatively affected by this experience. But the people who have the good experiences are positively affected throughout their entire lives in some cases.

Some people will describe it as the most beneficial experience of their life. You know, it would be akin to a spiritual journey or a religious experience in our past. You know, it's something like that. People would describe it as like, you know, after my kid was born, I felt like a different person. You know, it not, it didn't, I didn't physically change, but I felt changed. After I took mushrooms, I felt changed. something in me was different than before. There's the old me and then there's a little bit of a different me.

And I don't mean like it altered you and like it turned you into a different person. It just helped you kind of, you know, like I've said a couple of times, take account for the things that you don't like about yourself and the things that you do and feel it kind of allows you to get rid of those things that you don't like. Yeah. That's really well said. Yeah. I really think that helping the people that need it and getting a price point for them is something that's doable.

And maybe I'm just kind of spitballing here, but maybe there could be a two-tier model. Maybe there's a model for medicinal in therapy and there's a model for optimization because I could see optimization coming with incredible neural feedback technology, you know, long-term, you know, athletics. And, you know, people would pay a lot of money. for high-tech optimization and the merger of psychedelics. But people, the first step is getting healthy. The first step is therapy. And those people, you know, you could be giving, hey, here's all these broken stems and caps.

Who cares if they're broken? You know what I mean? Like the people that want the optimization. Yeah, the people that want the optimization are probably doing pretty well. And those are the people that would like, hell, yeah, I'll pay more here. And on top of that, you're going to get. three days with this coach that is badass and they're at the top of their game and they read 400 books a year and you're going to hang out that guy for three days and you're going to

do three different sessions with three different people like him like now you're talking about taking someone to the next level and people would pay tons of money for that and that's a fair deal because they want to do it they're getting value for it but the person at the bottom that's broken we got to fix them so that they can go to the optimization. camp. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a who is an essential, who need it. Like I said, the people that have been struggling with this

have been struggling in their entire lives. I personally know somebody who is, they've taken anti-anxiety pills their entire life. You know, from whenever they were first diagnosed, whenever they were young, all the way up until now they've been on these pills. And I personally saw him acquire mushrooms through another source, and he was able to

start microdosing. And he says that it's, it's night and day difference for him. He was able to taper off of these anti-anxiety medications and really just, you know, it's kind of a similar story to mine. You know, realize that there's nothing to be scared of out there. You know, the world is a scary place, but you can't control it. Worry about the things you can control, not the things you can't. So I really think that, you know, it makes you have a different outlook and a different way of looking at things. It really does. And that's so helpful for everything in life. If you can get rid of yourself

and take yourself outside of the picture slightly and really look at things for what they are, it's a game changer. It really is. And here's another thing, too, that people may not talk a whole lot about mushrooms with, but I see it in people I talk to all the time, is that the person that was at rock bottom that started taking mushrooms and got better, that's the perfect person to be a coach or that's the perfect person it's going to be in the optimization camp later and that person is going to want to help the other people it's that's almost what we've gotten away from is that we've just kicked these people to the corner but like that guy lives under a bridge he's a dummy maybe yeah but maybe that guy's been through things that

no one should ever have to go through in his life maybe we bring that guy back into the into the village and that guy becomes the teacher you know maybe not all of them can do that but there are people that can and those people have like this ultimate sort of you know uh character arc that's like i mean that's what a hero is right like someone that went to the depths of hell and then came back like yes if we can find those people that came back those are the ones that have the empathy those are the ones that thoroughly understand what it's like to lose your mind and those are the ones that end up coming up with the therapies that can help others like them Maybe that's all of our stories.

Maybe that's something we should all be trying to do. And that's why we should all become the best versions of ourselves so that we can help out the weaker versions of ourselves. And that's that's everybody. Everybody's a version of you at a different level, right? Exactly. If I was living your life and had all of your experiences in this body, I would be you. I would have, I would know everything you know and I would live my life exactly the way you live. And if I was also, if I had all the experiences of that hobo living under the bridge, I would probably.

be that hobo living under the bridge just in this body. You know, and it's a shame that we really put all these stigmatism on people and all these. We don't allow people any form of forgiveness. You know, we view them for what they are now and not what they potentially could be. You know, there's a road to fixing yourself and becoming more mentally healthy. and I think that it's a shame that we outcast these people and we don't allow them to you know we don't even help them you know people step over these people and they're deemed as they're never going to change but like you said they have probably suffered some things that you would

not imagine or that you could not even you know picture if I would I would be amazed to see somebody go through some of the things that I've heard of and not come unscathed on the other end. You would have to have a very hard will to come out of this life without some sort of scarring. And I've heard before, like, the worst thing that's ever happened to you is still the worst thing that's ever happened to you, whatever that may be. You know, it could be that you didn't get that Christmas present every year from your grandparents and you've held on to that your whole entire life and now Christmas pisses you off every year.

or it could be the fact that you were terribly abused whenever you were a child and that affects every aspect of your life and you cannot get past that something about that just it inhibits everything in your life every every decision you make and everything that you you try to strive for is hindered by this and being able to look out it like I said from the outside and be able to take atonement for it and just see yourself as is the victim. You know, you're, you're, you can, whenever you can take compassion to yourself and see like, oh, this is, you're, you're a suffering person as well. And these are things that have happened to you, uh, that, you know, you had no control over. Uh, and it's, it's, these are things that you can let go of. You know, we're all walking in this life forward and we just need to let the past be in the past and, you know, kind of strive to be better. You know, keep walking on this path and just look towards the brighter. future. And I think that, you know, through these medicines and through proper therapeutic techniques, I think that that's achievable. I really do. And I think that we can take,

like you said, these people that are outcast and who have experienced these terrible things, they could become our teachers, like you said, because they've, they've done the hero's journey. They've really, they've, they've, they've, they have all the stories, you know, have all the, the pitfalls and the things to tell us to avoid. And, you know, I would love to see, you know, the effects that this could have on society. You know, it could help addiction. It could help with homelessness. It could help with politics.

It could help with, you know, shoot, man. Let's let's shoot for the moon here. It could help stop war. You know, like you'd be a little bit more compassionate to your neighbor. You know, think about like the people that have nothing to do with the decisions that, you know, you're making as a politician in that country and how it's going to affect their lives. And if maybe you had that outside perspective and that thought, you might not make some of the decisions that you're making. You know, so this really could change the world.

I really do believe that. And I think that it's a shame that ever since the 70s and late 60s that, you know, these have been, you know, just thrown into the shadows. And I think that it's time that it, you know, it changes. And that's what I really commend you for bringing awareness to all of this. You know, what you're doing here is really important, you know, bring this out of the out of the shadows. and out into the light is really, it's really important. I appreciate it, man. It's, it's really fun.

Much like you, I really enjoy talking about it, and I enjoy learning from people. And everybody that comes on, you know, I feel like one of the things I want to do whenever somebody comes on is I, like, I want to give people the Tim Oliver experience, or I want to give people the Benjamin and George experience. So when people come on, like, I read all your stuff, man. I listen to what you say.

I'm like, dude, this guy's awesome. I want him to tell his, his story on a bigger platform and amplify his ideas. I appreciate the kind of words. And I love talking to people. And I think all of us in a way are playing a very important part. You know, there's one of my favorite songs has a quote that says, did you trade a walk on part in the war for a lead role in the cage?

Pink Floyd, my friend. Yeah. And I feel like for a long time, I had a lead role in a cage. And I'm like, you know what? I'm done with this. I'll just take a walk on part on the war over here. man it's it's so much more liberating and it's so much better and i feel so much better about myself but i first song i learned how to play on the guitar was that wish you were here such a great song

such a great song man everybody i talk to is at some point in my conversation tim with everybody i end up getting goosebumps and it's always this weird thing we connect with like i was just thinking that man so it's awesome it's awesome i love the conversation man and i'm really excited to see how you're moving forward to see how the modern mushroom cultivation moves forward. I would hope that at any point in time you got anything you want to get out, you would reach out to me and I hope that you'll come back on. But before I let you go, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about?

Yeah. So we are actually going to be at the Saigon conference here in Portland, Oregon, here on the 19th of May. We're going to be there as a guest speaker. We'll have a two-hour-long panel. We'll have a questionnaire at the end. Anybody who's going to be there, feel free to come by our booth. We'll have our cards there and we'll have multiple things. And you can talk to us and we'll answer any questions that you have.

Like I said, we love to talk about it. Our website is modern mushroom cultivation.com. We don't have much up there right now because we are not currently cultivating or delivering product. But as soon as we are, there will be a launch of information on that website. website and if you subscribe to our newsletter, that'll keep you all up to date on there. And you can also follow us on our LinkedIn profile, on our Facebook profile. We're very, you know, we try to keep a constant flow of information coming up onto there. We post every morning at 9 a.m.

We do a lot of research on all the stuff that we're trying to put up out to the community. So we definitely try to be a good follow. So if you want to follow us on those profiles, definitely we invite you. And on our website, there is a contact me page. It has my contact information as well as the business contact info. Like I said, if there's anybody out there who's starting their own business, working in this industry, or anybody out there at all that just wants to talk about this or learn more about our company, feel free to drop us a line or give us a call.

We'd love to have anybody reach out to us at any point. Yeah, I would recommend everybody take advantage of that. Kim and his team over there, they put out articles that it's not just about. the psychedelic space. It's the history of the mushroom. It's different kinds of mushrooms. And it's, it's a really, you know, 20,000 foot view of this whole world that's changing around us. And it's, it's really well done. So I'd recommend everybody go check it out. And I'm super stoked to have you, Tim. I'm sure you'll be back at some point in time. And I really love the conversation today, man. Thank you for your time. Yeah, definitely. I look forward to speaking with you more in the future.

We literally just touched the proverbial iceberg here. I got like three of my 25 topics that I had set up. So, you know, next time you want to have us come on board, you know, if you're ever looking to fill some air, let's go ahead and let's have another conversation. We can talk about more stuff about my genetics and how we're working in the laboratory and all that type of stuff. So we definitely have a lot more that we can talk about. Yeah, absolutely. I know that there's some interesting cultivation techniques and things that you have been. researching. So I'm excited to hear about all that. And I definitely want the audience to hear about it.

So we'll be in touch soon. And hang on for one second. I'm going to close it down, but I still want to talk to you for one. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for hanging out with us today. Aloha.