TrueLife - Tom DiNardo - Mushrooms, Mysticism & Mother Earth

Episode Date: February 18, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/http://linkedin.com/in/tom-dinardo-wines-mycologist-psychedelics-and-mystic-ba2a035http://www.DiNardoandLordAuctioneers.comhttp://www.WineryandWineAppraisals.comhttps://www.gotoauction.com/companies/view/1271/DiNardo-and-Lord-Auctioneers---Charity-Auctions.htmlTom’s Career as a sommelier, wine appraiser & charity auctioneer, his PASSIONS: mysticism, mycology (mushrooms), story teller and writer. He runs a Linkedin mycology group. an in Refi me ever evolving spiritual being. Always in "Service to Others", practicing "Love", and facilitating"healing" is his mantra. One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Fearist through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. We got a special guest for you today. I'm Mr. Tom Donardo. Many of you may know him as the wine zealot. He's a psychologist.

He is part of the International Summers Guild. He's recently started some groups on LinkedIn. He's big into healing. He's got a ton of great information. He's a real pleasure to talk to. Tom, first off, I want to say, happy Valentine's Day. I'm excited that you're here today. And it's a beautiful day.

Did I leave anything out? I probably left some stuff out in that intro. Sometimes I get a little nervous. So is there anything I left out in that intro that you wanted to add? Well, happy Valentine's. stage, George. Thank you. Actually, it's kind of funny.

I say that those are past lives now. I've been an auctioneer, had two companies, an auction company where I was doing charity auctions for nonprofits and so forth, and another company that perform wined spirits appraisals for wineries, distilleries, breweries, expert witness work. That's all past life. That's, there's.

been a number of people that you know I was just getting I don't do any other social media this is it LinkedIn I had the sort well you'll probably hear more of the story but I had some amazing spiritual experiences back in the 1990s and but I described my life as being sort of a war record at that time and you know on one side of the the LPE. I had these amazing awakenings, spiritual experiences, started getting involved in the healing arts, working with people, and really just coming from a place of giving. And I turned my back on all of that. And when I kind of got into the business world at that point, I went from basically being in a place, a very small studio living on, you know, hand me down furniture

and cattered clothes and eat oatmeal for days in a roll to eventually just completely abandoning all that, diving into materialism and self-angrandizement. And, you know, as with all these people, millions of people, billions on the planet, you know, the pandemic had affected us all. And like for so many of us, the last couple of years, it'd probably been the darkest period in my life. But it was a wake-up call. And for me, it was about coming back to the realization that I was not being authentic to myself or to God. And I said, you know, it was a very serious question posed to myself and to God, you know, is this what I want to do? for the rest of my life. So I have been meditating, you know, since I was 14, but really,

I would say probably had my first God experience at three. And then like I say, when I got into my late 20s, I turned my back on all of that. And now I'm at this point where I've decided to more or less live the life of a renunciate. And, to be in-served to others. And, you know, with that being said, before I talk about the groups, I just wanted to say, you know, I believe very strongly today that so many people confuse social media as being an extension of friends.

And it can be. I mean, I've met some of the most wonderful people in my life in the last six months, you know, like you. I mean, you asked me when we had first chatted, you know, why aren't you doing this, Tom? Why aren't you doing podcasts or why aren't you writing a book? And I said, you know, George, because there's people out there that do it so much better. And you're that guy.

And, you know, everyone has a calling. And, you know, for me, you know, it's also come for myself, and this isn't for everyone, but this is for me coming to a further understanding that, you know, leadership, as I now understand it. I used to think I understood it, but I didn't understand it at all. The leadership is, in my opinion, standing into the background and focusing the spotlight on those who shine brighter. And to that end, back to you, you know, this is what you do best. And, you know, that's what I'm trying to do right now through LinkedIn. There's so many people, you know, as you know, as you know, everything's a photo off. Look at me. Look at this. Look at that. You know, look what I'm doing.

Oh, look at this photo with me and this celebrity. And I had lived that life. And I'm so done with it. And so I focus on the people, for example, anyone can copy and paste a URL into LinkedIn, right? And repost an article. And I don't know if swearing's allowed on your podcast, is it? Yeah, feel free. Well, I think about George Carlin's famous comment. He used to say, I don't know if you're a George Carlin fan. I love him. When George Carlin would talk about people that would say something

borderline or moronic, George Carlin used to say, well, wasn't that fucking enlightening? And I find myself saying this all the time. When I read this stuff that's been regurgitated time and time again, about the seventh day's time and the day that you see it on LinkedIn, I come back to who are the people that are saying something original like you, you know, and others. Who are the people that are really doing something that's helping this planet and that's helping people?

And, you know, I think right now my personal feeling is that, you know, everyone, the billions of eight billion people on this planet, we've all gone through struggles, trials, tribulations. And it's all an opportunity for us to be. the best that we can be. And I personally feel that right now, at this time on the planet, there are millions and millions and millions of souls, whether you believe in reincarnation, but if you don't, it doesn't matter. But just that there are souls here that I believe are finding a greater meaning within themselves, a greater calling, whether that's environmentalism,

conservation, rewilding, regenerative agriculture, psychology, spirituality, education, you know, hospice care, hospital work, psychedelics. And to that end, the work that you do, in my opinion, is part of that message. And it's getting people to wake up. And there are other people that, you know, is again, my whole approach today is focusing on other people like my friends, Dr. Randall and Jenny Hanson. They're doing amazing work right now. The book, Triumph Over Trauma, you know, all the proceeds are being donated to veterans groups. I don't know if you've connected with Lynette Grable in our group.

She's phenomenal. She has an organization called Not Our Native Daughters. I've been in contact with her for well over a year. She could actually probably use some support and would probably welcome the exposure. She's absolutely phenomenal. Her organization is about stopping and prohibiting the trafficking of young negative American women and reduce the homicide rate. I mean, just this cause has made the news in the last year or so, or excuse me, I'm sorry, the last several years. But it still isn't getting the attention that it does.

deserves. People like Sandor Iron Rope, you know, he is one of the co-owners of the group, you know, his work with the protection of the indigenous peyote conservation initiative and his work with his people. I mean, that man has spread so thin. You know, and obviously with given the history in the background with Native Americans, you know, right now with the psychedelic renaissance, everybody's approaching them, oh, dude, can we do peyote ceremony? Well, I mean, think about it you know i mean how many times have people been asked asked and have things taken away and now it's like really you're coming to me again um and so you know there's other great people in a group like hannah summer

you know clinical psychologist from berlin germany who just recently had her license threatened now she's back but i think her message is even stronger because she's totally focusing on the inner work and i think that that's great other people like abby lutz i don't know if you've seen her in the group she's a death dula traveling nurse and a shamanic healer. I think, in my opinion, one of the most important roles that a healer and a person can take is when you're in the final moments, helping someone just before they cross. These are the people that capture my attention. The people that you seldom hear about, that you seldom see other people like Kristen Taylor. I'm sure you've seen her in the group.

She's a microdosing, you know, integration practitioner, you know, and she has a very, very powerful story. Her own personal trials and tribulations in her work and how microdosing saved her life and how it's now helping her and her clients. And of course, the work of Nicole Hammond. You know, she has what I feel also in this world today is something you don't see a lot, which is authenticity and a genuine compassion and caring for people. You know, so many people are concerned about, you know, having the letters, the certifications, the education behind their name. But the reality is, is that I think while that's important and obviously in certain circles,

that's everything, you know, when you're in the medical care world or you're in a hospital, but I think when it comes to people, you don't necessarily need that. I think, you know, if your heart's in the right place and you're really doing this without an agenda and your agenda is simply to help other people. then it's amazing how that role of facilitator can indeed, you know, produce a healing effect and how healing can occur. So I've just sort of made my pitch for people that I think are well deserving of attention. But with that, I guess if you're, if you would like me to discuss what the groups are that I've helped to go create, I can tell you a little bit about those and then we can move on. that sounds like a great idea. I just wanted to amplify the message that I think now more than ever,

there's a lot of people who are beginning to awaken to themselves. You know, they've found themselves maybe working five, 10, 15, maybe 30, maybe 40 years, be like, what am I doing? You know, and they've gotten to this point where they've had enough. And it seems that we've found ourselves at what Joseph Campbell would call a threshold guardian. And there's enough of us that are just have had enough and we're seeing almost a rebirth. We're seeing sort of a tearing down of the old and a building up of the new. But I really like the idea of the rebirth a little bit better. And I see it in you and I see it in the group and I see it around so many people going out of their way to redefine who they are. And I really like the idea

that you brought up with doctors and PhDs and all these people were all so important. But you can begin just by making everyone around you better. And if you start doing that, I think you start seeing the world different. But let's get into the groups. Let's talk about it. Which ones did you want to start with? Well, I'm sorry if the son here. I'll try to get out of the way here again.

I can't even figure out how this darn thing works. Let me turn this again here and see if I can do it this way. Sorry. The light is on you. The light is upon you. Well, now I'm totally self-conscious here. Okay, here we go. So the two groups,

I created my, I don't even know the full name here because I was trying to fit it in some keywords, but let's just call it my mushroom mycology and foraging group, which I think you're a member of as well. And that's now about 1,200 members. It's been in existence since 2019. And now we have members from all over the world. There was one other group that existed, but there was really never any content. And so I wanted to create a group that would not only draw. experts but would also draw in novices and be a place where again my my one slam my guest against so many of these LinkedIn groups is that when you see these groups like

some I think that you and I are actually a part of that deal with mental health specialties they went from 76,000 to 120,000 in a week and when you try to read a post if you refresh the screen 10 seconds later, there's 50 posts ahead of that one. All it is is one continuous advertisement. Buy my book. Join my newsletter. You know, buy coaching sessions. And my feeling is, oh, please, you know, I mean, everybody's selling something.

Doesn't anybody have something to offer somebody or to give somebody? I mean, sure, we all need to make a living. But, you know, back to the mushroom group, you know, One of the things that I was adamant about was that this would be a resource, a place for people to share their experiences, videos, photographs, articles, a place for novices to ask questions without judgment. And also for experts to share. And believe me, we have some great experts there like Bill Chiopi with Chemex and plenty, many, many, many others. And so many people from around the world, you name the country. When I created this new group, psychedelics, therapy, and theogens, shaman ritual, and mysticism, I prayed about it.

And I prayed long and hard and meditated. And I got the message real quick. This is going to be a shit storm. And pretty much within the first four days, the group had just really started to take off a lot. faster than the mushroom group. But I pretty much add to tractors right away. I've got people unfriending me left and right. And that's fine.

None of that matters to me. What mattered to me was what I'm seeing in the psychedelics arena right now and in this new what they call psychedelics renaissance is horrific. It scares the hell out of me. There's so much misinformation and profiteering that's occurring. that's occurring, that I wanted to create a group where people, again, just like the same focus with the mushroom group, it wasn't going to be a revolving billboard with ads coming up every single minute, but that it would be a place for the experts to share their information and for people

to come and legitimately ask questions. That being said, believe me, I'm hearing things from people finding out about things that would literally turn your toenails. It's a little scary, actually. And when I had recently changed my profile, I mean, I tell people straight up, you know, am I a psychedelics expert? Not at all. Do I know about psychedelics? Sure. Do I know about mycology?

I've been studying mycology for 16 years and specifically cellosidine for free. But why did I create this group? I've told every one of the admins when they jumped on board. This was going to be a spiritual group first and foremost. It was going to be all about focusing on the inner work. Not that psychedelics can't produce a tremendous breakthrough and be a very, very powerful, powerful medicine and healing. But there again, you know, and maybe this is my own judgment. And if so, I own it.

But I look at the 110 million Americans, one-third of America that's on some type of psychotropic medication, serotonin, re-uptake inhibitors, MSSLRIs, and other such medications. and the question that I have of one-third of America's on these types of medications is, what are you doing to deal with the root cause of the problem? And now they're saying that, you know, psychedelics could replace, you know, psychotropic medications and SSRIs in the next five years. People are talking about microdose. And again, I'm not being judgmental. I think microdosing has its place.

And same thing with psychedelics. But when we talk about going to them continuously, then the question arises is this spiritual bypassing or are we bypassing some other way physical or emotional you know there's a lot of these psychedelic churches that exist out there and I'm not going to name names and that's great you know and if people want as they want to represent that they're taking the sacrament great but I have a question I mean I'm a recovering Catholic and you know when you go to Catholic mass you know you get the little wafer you get a sip of wine They don't give you a damn jug of wine and they don't give you a loaf for bread and say,

on your way, son. You know, wouldn't that be great? Well, there's lunch for today. But, you know, I question a lot of the information that's out and a lot of the motives and a lot of the intentions. And it's not for me to judge again. And I'm certainly saying that, you know, I understand people need to make a living. For myself, I'm going in a different direction. So I tell people right now in all the groups, I'm not selling anything, not selling a book, I'm not selling newsletters, I'm not selling coaching sessions.

I'm always here to listen, to ask, you know, to answer questions, to help if I can. And I get a lot of requests from people about all kinds of things, as you might imagine. I mean, from the mundane to something incredibly complex. But I'm not saying that people need to do what I'm doing to be a renunciate, but for me, it's a path. When I made this decision, I was very clear that there's, I have unwavering faith and there's no doubt in my mind that I will be taken care of. I will be housed. I will be fed. if recognition comes, it's not because I'm seeking it, but because of the work that I'm doing.

And that if money comes, it's going to be because it supports the work that I'm doing. Yeah, that seems to be, it's unfortunate, but that seems to be a difficult strategy for people to take. And I think the elusiveness and the sexiness of profiting off of the holy man's And what I mean by that is that sometimes under the influence of psychedelics, we can become its biggest evangelist. And, you know, it just depends on how you manifest or how you've done the inner work. Like, it seems to me most people that take psychedelics, they want to begin helping other people. But sometimes that particular sort of feeling manifests itself in different ways, and you begin, instead of listening to the other people and allowing them to do their own work, you start trying to force your way on those people.

And it very quickly goes from being someone that wants to help to becoming a potential situation for a Jonestown sort of a following or something like that. And there are a lot of people that are capitalizing on it. And it's, I think it's like anything, you know, because it's a new frontier, because the laws are gray, people are beginning to push the boundaries in ways they haven't done before. What do you think about the tension between the spiritual nature of psychedelics and this business nature of psychedelics? Well, there are people who come to psychedelics for a number of reasons. Psychedelics, as you know, are being used to treat everything now from post-traumatic stress disorder to OCD to other various types of

forms of emotional illness that are found in the DSM manual to chronic pain syndrome, cancer treatment, autism. There are people that turn to psychedelics that have never had a God experience. They're looking for that. Now, again, it's not for me to judge, and nor will I judge why or how, or even how many times someone does it. I have my own opinions, but I let people know. My opinions are my opinion.

And my agenda, or if you will, my own personal agenda is not something that I'm forcing on anybody. I mean, my agenda, again, is in service to others. What I feel back to your question about psychedelics is that there are some people that will turn to that to psychedelics because they want to have that God experience. There are people that turn to it because they truly want to overcome PTSD. There's a lot of discussion now, and to your point about, you know, profiteering and sort of coming back to the point that Sandboro Iron Rope had made, you know, about the Indigenous peyote conservation initiative. There are programs, spas, retreats, et cetera, that, in my opinion, outright infringe on psychedelic medicines that really are not ours to encroach upon. peyote for example being one and if you look at the united nations declaration on the rights of

indigenous people famously known as the undrift document it states in black and white that native americans have the right to protect their uh their indigenous sacred medicinal plants um and and with today today's medical world and big pharma there's no reason why people should be out-coaching peyote when you can buy synthesized, you know, mescaline, or as the article that I put up states, you can go to San Pedro Cactus. Now, there's tribes in southwest Arizona where San Pedro Petro grows wild and in certain parts of the world, Southern California, it almost grows like a weed. But if it's on sacred land, a reservation, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Land, Forest Service land, Bureau of Land Management Land, National Park Service land.

You don't go in and take that, especially like the San Pedro Cactus, when you can go on Etsy or Amazon or any retail website and you can purchase it. And it has the same derivative and amount of mescaline that peyote does. So even when some people say, well, you know, you can buy peyote from nurseries in Southeast Asia, yes, that's true. But how do you stop what might be referenced as an end? immoral economy, especially one that infringes upon the rights of indigenous people, in this case Native Americans, then why would you support an economy like that? I personally wouldn't

buy peyote cactus, even if it's legal in another part of the world, because I know that it directly infringes upon the rights of indigenous people. But that's me on my soapbox and my morality, and what's good for me may not be good for others. And I'm certainly not saying that I'm more evolved than some I'm just basically stating what my platform is, my own personal platform, my spiritual stance. I'm curious, and I haven't spoken to many indigenous leaders, but I am aware of the problem with peyote. Is there a contention with people that are growing peyote in greenhouses that then give it to people versus, I can understand foraging in the wild? because it's such a limited resource.

But do some of the indigenous tribes have problems with people that are taking it, that it was grown in a greenhouse somewhere? Or what's that relationship like? You know, I can't really comment on that. Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, that's really more the province of Sandor Iron Rope, because he's definitely more an expert in that area than I am. But I think, again, going back to the point that I mentioned earlier,

I mean, peyote is a cactus that can take up to seven years to mature. And even if someone is growing it in a greenhouse, I guess the question that remains is, well, where did you originally source it from? And what potential damage did you create to the environment? And I guess that's me going back to my original career and training right out of college as a park ranger and the naturalist. I mean, and probably why my love for mycology and the outdoors, conservation, and environmentalism still continues to this day. I mean, everything that we do has an impact on Mother Earth. And, you know, again, I think when it comes to the rights of native people, it's not just peyote or even San Pedro cactus in the wild. I mean, you know, ayahuasca.

I mean, that's a whole other topic and agenda that brings up a lot of questions. about people, you know, what's happening right now? Is this becoming back to your point about profiteering or people making the profit, you know, is everybody and their grandmother now running down to South America to become a shaman? And what are we doing to the people? Are we actually hurting the indigenous people? To me, it also brings up a question about these retreats that are held in third world countries, you know? Well, as my friend Robert Rush brought up, opposed, he says, isn't it great when you can spend $8 to $16,000 on a retreat to sit by a pool and have some indigenous person bring a piece of fruit to you on a plate? You know, it's like, are we maybe not doing something morally correct here?

You know, or Iboga or Ibogaine, you know, which everyone's touting now, you know, as being another psychedelic resource. Well, it comes from Africa. Well, who did we rip off there? you know so i think i probably need to move to a different topic before i have been some people and be under moral curios well let's talk about this i you know you had said something recently that i wanted to ask you about and i think we're kind of dancing around the subject but it's this idea that you had brought up about the ego being hardwired into the DNA what did you mean by that exactly that you stated it right to the point in my opinion you know you there's a lot of

discussion and psychedelics today and I just roll my eyes. People talk about ego debt. And I guess if you're looking at it as a term of art, you know, in a lexicon that's common in psychedelics, okay, can psychedelics help us with some breakthroughs and go deep and get in contact with maybe some traumas or even in recovery and healing? Absolutely. I've gone through it myself. But let's come back to ego. Ego is hardwired in our DNA from the standpoint that it goes right back to the reptilian part of our brain, of our brain, fight or flight. I mean, without ego, we would be gelatinous blobs. And once again, there's these people who shall remain nameless that are on LinkedIn and other social media platforms that talk about how just bloody enlightened they are and just how beautiful they all.

and just how beautiful they all as human beings, you know, with this transcendence. And that's great. That's really great why they're selling their retreats. You know, perfect. I don't make any bones about it. We all had ego. I had ego. And I'll share a brief experience that may sort of cast light on my perspective.

In one of my more recent psychedelic experiences, my guides had come forward during this experience. And they said just that. They said exactly what I had mentioned to you earlier, in those very words, they said ego is hardwired in your DNA. You will never, ever lose ego. You will be challenged by ego every day of your life.

You will become better and better at dealing with ego as you progress and as you evolve. But do not fool yourself. yourself in for one moment in believing that you will ever be able to rid yourself of ego. And they said, also, you will never be perfect. So don't even try to get on that soapbox. You will have ego. You will have the challenges.

And then to me, and this, you know, and I have no problem stating this because this is part of my journey. I mean, there was a time in my life where I was. extremely, extremely arrogant and seated looking for that engrantzoned. And one of the things that came through in that message was they said, Tom, you're a very, very smart man. You've often awarded that over other people. And you've been very condescending to people. They said, in your work now, there's going to be people to challenge you. There may even be people. who get angry or upset with you or even want to hurt you.

But when you are standing in front of someone, don't smirk, don't laugh. But look at them. Be completely present. Be compassionate. And be there to try to understand their perspective. And your empathy, your compassion will be disarming. and especially when you're there for them. But they said also that doesn't mean that you subject yourself to abuse or attack.

And that's where I think the line also has to be drawn. You know, as I've said, you know, based on my own past experiences. And again, we all have ego. I'm the last guy in the world that's going to stand by. And maybe that's my training as, you know, former park ranger, volunteer firefighter EMT. If someone's hurt, I'll help. If someone's getting, if someone's in trouble physically or being threatened,

hell yeah, I'll throw myself in between. You know, even if it means that I'm possibly putting myself in the way of harm. If it, it's not that there's some savior or hero complex. It's just sometimes you need to do that. And I think on LinkedIn, especially with cyberbullying and all this stuff that goes on, yeah, sometimes people do need to stand up and take a position. So that's sort of my two cents about ego, unless you have any other questions. But I think it's, again, it's the tight we're up we walk every day.

It's our daily challenge to keep ourselves aware of what we're doing and how we can become better within our own. ourselves and to be facilitators to other people. Yeah, I like that. It's really well said. I once heard it explained in a way that provided me with a nice mental image, and I want to share with everybody, it's like, if you can, think of like an old movie where like the aircraft carrier had that little green radar.

It's like, doop, doop, you know, had a little needle going across it. Like, that's your ego. It's like a radar. And every now and then, like, when you get, when you find yourself being arrogant or when you find yourself being condescending when you find yourself popping yourself up that's that little blip on that screen like doop do do so if you just think of your ego as like a radar detector just being aware of the fact that your ego is talking to you is usually enough to disarm it you know at least in a meaningful way we're like oh okay I'm just being crazy or I'm just being George you know

George gets upset about this kind of silly stuff sometimes but I really like the way you put it out there and I appreciate you sharing the story about that because it's it's not easy to do and I do think that ego is part of us. It's something that we have to integrate into ourselves. And when you become aware of it, I think that you can become a lot more empathetic to other people. It seems that the things you see in other people are just a part of you, whether it's something you like or something you dislike. It's something you recognize, right? Was that fair to say? What do you think? yeah absolutely i mean you know i don't make any bones about it there are people um you know profiles on lincoln that just absolutely make my skin crawl and uh you know and then i realize well you know

like that old phrase jones you know what we love about other people is what we love about ourselves what we dislike and other people is what we dislike about ourselves you're a professional truck driver, you know, you drive the street every day. You probably experience this multiple times a day where you think, I'm going to get out and I'm going to give that person a peace of my mind, wait a minute. You know, but I think that's the power of the breath. You know, if we can start to give ourselves that message every day when something's happening. Yeah. It's it stops us and it gives us the opportunity. Oh, and there's something else I want to share with you.

Yes, please. In a moment. But it's something that allows us to, to, in essence, reset our trajectory and our perspective. And I think one of the things that's really come to my attention, in the last several months about ego has been the realization about how we dive in so deep into it for the sake of being right. And, you know, I'm sure with a lot of, I don't know, I mean, there's times not so much recently.

I think I'm getting better about being able to turn off mind chatter. And I think I'll explain first. I think what I've now come to understand over the last several months, having some kundalini experiences, reawakening, meditating, quite a while during the day, is my mantra has been surrender and also forgiveness and self or loving myself as opposed to the opposite, which is self-love, which is narcissism. But I still struggle with that with self-forgiveness and self-love because that ties in to childhood trauma. And I think we all have had backgrounds. We all have our story. But as I said in the previous post, you know, we are not our stories. We can evolve beyond our stories.

And I think with ego and the choices that we make, what I have come to find out is the decisions that we make, if we're confronted with the situation, The decisions are so simple. We can, and it's literally comes down to a fork in the road. We can go to the right, and if we go to the right, we think we are in the right, and maybe we're absolutely wrong. And what we don't understand at that time with ego is the decision that we make may be so wrong on so many levels that it has a far-reaching detrimental impact into the person's life that we're interacting with and potentially causes harm. Also, the harm, we do not escape our karma.

And if we do something knowing, and believe me, we all do know somewhere in the back of our head or in our heart and our soul, what we're doing is not right. We don't come away from that unscathed. I have really firmly started to understand, and I now believe everything that's happened in my life, good, bad, accidents, injuries. There's a reason for that. Native American believes everything happens for a reason, and we are accountable for all our actions. So on the opposite side of that Y, or working road, if we go to the left, again, a decision

that we have, if we can fight the ego urge, we can literally find liberation. Does it mean we're becoming enlightened? No, but I think we're getting on our way towards that. And if we make a decision that goes opposite of what we would normally do, just the opposite occurs. And what we find is that the actions that occur with the other people don't hold them back. They don't hurt them. But they catapult that person forward and propel them forward into their greater being. And what it does for us is it liberates us and also it equally heals us. You know, and I have a story that, you know, some people know a little bit of my background. They say, you know, you're a storyteller.

I had a very traumatic, traumatic childhood, horrific father. And basically about 25 years ago or so, I was living with the lady at a young child. You know, she was going through a divorce. So as you can imagine, the child at first absolutely hated me. I was the wedge between her father. But eventually she grew to love me. I'd, you know, beat her, you know, made her, take her to school, you know. And one day, you know, it's morning and mom went to work and, you know, the daughter's there.

and I'm giving her breakfast and she's having a bowl of apple jacks and she's just happy as I'll get out. I'm thinking, oh, that's a lot of sugar. And then she goes to the bridge and pulls out of bottles, sunny delight. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, there's a sugar bomb.

And she starts to pour her glass and I said, hey, honey, you can't have that, you know. And she says, well, mom lets me. I said, but I'm not your mom. And she starts pitching a fit. And she's really getting upset. and I'm saying no at first and eventually she's screaming and crying so loud that you

know that's my weaknesses I can take just about anything you can throw up me pain wise physically but I'm not good with emotional pain so she says let me take a breath she says I call her mom her mom says you know Tom I let her have it. She's, you know, she has that every morning. And I said, okay, she says, no, no, I need to come home. I said, no, I got this. Trust me. I'm going to do you the right thing. And I get off the phone. And as I hang up the phone, there's a little voice kind of comes from within. The voice says, Tom, who's talking now? You or your father? And it paralyzed me. And it was that moment that I was at the fork in the road.

And I realized if I go to the right, I will do a lot of damage to this little girl because I've been coming from ego and telling her that she can't have it. Or I can go to the left. If I go to the left, I will honor her because she was in her space of truth. And I will not be doing something that comes out of my ego. So she was still crying. I said, hey, come on over here, honey, and she did. And I got on my knees, but I got before. And I said, I'm so sorry.

I was wrong. You can have the juice. And I said, I am so sorry. And one thing I realized, and a therapist once stole me, you never asked somebody for forgiveness. Believe me, I've been in therapy for a lot of years. Never ask someone for forgiveness because it's not about them. at that point. It becomes about you. Now, it's okay for you to forgive because that is divine, but don't ask somebody forgiveness because then you take away their experience and their pain.

But you can always offer to make amends, and you can let that person arrive at that decision on their own. So back to the daughter. I'm standing in front of her, and I wasn't going to ask for forgiveness because I knew that would be wrong, but I had, I admitted, my being wrong. I said, you were right. And I didn't believe you. And that was so wrong, so, so wrong. And I said, you know, you can have, you know, the juice. And I said, and I start to cry. And she leads over. He gives me this big hug. And I start to sob. And she says, there, there, there. It's okay. There's going to be just by. And I really start. sobbing. And I said, you know, you're such a great teacher. You've been one of my best teachers.

Because children are. They really are so wise beyond the years. And so we're both wiping away our tears. And I said, let's go wash our faces. You know, let's clean up. And let's have you finished breakfast. I said, you're ready to go to school and take on the world? She says, yeah, let's go do that. So that's what I knew also, which was a massive lesson for me, that I'm not my father. And I think that also came, and I'm sorry, the story gets a little bit longer, but it reminds me of tradition, you know, in the Bible, and I'm not a religious dad per se, but I welcome and embrace all religion, and I believe God is known by many names, but in the Bible, I believe it's Exodus 34, two and there's a phrase the sons of the father visited unto the son and unto the seven generation

and if you think about it um a generation is 20 years seven generations is 140 years and i think back then they understood the sacred wisdom about um that the mistakes that our parents make and their parents before them and their parents before them keep getting perpetuated until eventually a generation wakes up and becomes aware that we don't need to do this anymore. The Irish also have a tradition. The seventh son of a seventh son is gifted as healer. And I believe that ties in, you know, because Irish are very Bible-focused as well. But I found those phrases fascinating.

And it reminds me of a lot of the work that's come out in the last three years with people talking about breaking the ties that mine. Would you mind, George, if we took just a brief break? Is that okay, sir? Yeah, please, please. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, fantastic.

Yeah. Yeah, I think what Tom is talking about, this idea of generational pain, and this idea of generational awakening is something that, you know, it's a powerful thing. And I think everybody comes to their own ways. Let me go ahead and go to some of these comments right here. Here's one that Dr. Randall Hansen says. He says, the ego work is an interesting topic.

Yes, during any change in consciousness, if we truly surrender to the moment, medicine, we can see how small we really are in this gigantic world. and our ego can temporarily dissolve. But as Tom mentions, we need the ego. Thus, after we return to ourselves, the ego returns. But the goal is enough self and shadow work with the ego, that when we come back, the ego is more contained, more in line with the universe,

and that we are not the center of. So, yeah, I was just going over a few comments right in here. Dr. Randall Hansen had one about the ego. Here's another one for you that comes from our friend, Random Rick Reviews. He says you still need to explain why you don't want her to have sugar and slowly change it out. So this guy was just, he was thinking it's a little, still a little bit too much sugar. But I think it's going to go ahead. You know what?

I guess that comes back down to personal perspective, you know, and the way I look at it is there was a greater. opportunity here spiritually for me and i think for her and again focusing on the fact that it came down to a very very simple decision and one that could have potentially cost four more damage than an excess of sugar that would have had an impact on her for the rest of her life and sure someone could say oh well this that the other thing about physiology but you know what the mind-body connection is an amazing thing. And I'm a firm believer in healing. And I'm going through a lot of that myself right now.

And I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can transform or change. What is it? The old phrase, the greatest gift that we have to give the world is the gift of our own transformation. And to that end, I think again, back to the point that I was making, that what we do to other people can have far greater impacts. God knows there's been many, many stories out there and movies made about this where they show one person doing something that then impacts two, that then impacts four, eight, 16, you know, 32. and by the end of the day,

there's thousands of people that have been impacted by this one single action that began with one person. So does it come down to a little too much sugar? I don't fucking think so. Yeah, I always think of Mary Poppins, like a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. And that spoonful of sugar can be a hug. You know, that can be a transformable moment with someone.

And, you know, at that point in time, I think it's a beautiful story. And I think that what you're seeing is a memory being created for the generations. One for you, one for her, a turning point, a point in which you got to see yourself make a left turn instead of a right turn. I think it's a beautiful story. Thank you. Yeah. And I think it almost, I think it brings us to the next idea of overcoming trauma and adversity.

Because that was, you know, that's generational trauma that you're overcoming. That is adversity overcoming. But what do you have to say on the idea? of overcoming adversity and trauma? Well, boy, again, I'm certainly not an expert, and I'm certainly not trying to sell anything. But I think, again, it goes back to the phrase I just said, the greatest gift that we have to give to the world is our own personal transformation.

And I think that so many of us go through life, basically like the sleepwalking, were zombies, you know, and I think, unfortunately, and I have some strong opinions on this, but this is my own journey coming to my own realizations. Look at the world that we live in, how artificial it is. I mean, and we're going more and more into it. You know, we went from, they were officially retired the 3G network a year and a half ago. When they went to 4G, it was 1,500 or excuse me, 1 100% I believe more radiation

than the previous network. Now they're going to 5G, which they basically said, you know, and the advent of AI, which is 1,500% increase in radiation. We are increasingly living in a world

where we are becoming as the Hopi nation would say, you know, Koyana Scotsi, life out of balance. And we are out of balance. We don't listen to Mother Earth anymore. We don't live in harmony with the planet. We live by a timeline that has been set up by our employers or by other expectations. We, you know, we want everything so fast, the food we eat. a microwave, you know, enlightenment, take this class, you know, the pressure that we put on

ourselves, you know, Hannah Summer put up this beautiful post in our group, you know, and I love this transition that she's, that she's moving to about the inner work, you know, and all these expectations that we, we place on ourselves. And the more, I was just thinking about this the other day when I was on a walk, you know, In the Jewish faith, they don't believe in hell. But in Christian faith, they believe in hell. I personally don't really believe in that. I take the philosophy that they do talk about in Christianity and other faiths, such as Buddhism,

that the separation between here and what you want to call heaven is a gospel of then biver. And I believe that hell really is what we make of it. And it is what we live in or not. And I guess when I'm finding, you know, when people ask, I tell them truthfully, people say, Tom, are you happy? Well, if they knew my history, the closest that I probably ever came to, It was back in the 1990s when I was having these awakenings, but I had not dealt with childhood trauma or any of that that held me back. I think I'm becoming happier and happier every day because I'm finding out what is real for me and what matters.

And I think what I'm finding is that I'm living my life very young, very young. very much as a contrarian to the way I had lived my life for the previous quarter century. I am no longer, what I used to think is real I now understand is not. What I thought mattered did not. Now what matters to me is completely opposite. It's not money. It's not fame. I've had that.

It's helping other people. It's bringing a smile to the face of another person. It's listening to their story. And it's helping them to find their way. Now, again, you know, I also had a very bad habit of being a caregiver. I mean, not a caregiver, the unhealthy aspect of it, being, you know, someone who, a rescuer. And that never got me anywhere. And I think what I'm starting to understand more and more in this world, as the old phrase goes, is there's going to be people

in this world who accept you and love you for who you are. And there's going to be people in this world that don't. And this is by no means meant to sound arrogant. But if someone needs help, certainly I will help them in any way I can. But if they're not there to help themselves, I move on. It's not that I'm giving up on them. It's if they're giving up on them on themselves, then I can't, I'm not able to help them. And I think what this is really also brought me to a space in my life with self-forgiveness and attempting to love myself more is also understanding that I had in the past been involved in a number of toxic relationships and now I'm looking at good relationships. Again, the number of people that I've met in the last six months,

have been amazing like you and others that are on the same path. And so I'm choosing to surround myself with positive people that are helping other people. You know, again, I'm not closing people out, but I've walked away from probably a good 10 or so friendships and relationships in this past six months. And even people on LinkedIn, I'm just at the point now where if they're too much into the negativity, it's like, you know what? I just, I don't want that. You know, and so I'll disconnect. And by all means, if people feel that same way, you know, towards me, fine. You know, because I'm going to resonate with people. And there's going to be people that I don't.

And I believe that that's where that old phrase, water finds its own level, really comes into play. I'm not looking to rescue everybody. I'm not looking to be an answer to everyone. I'm looking to help others to find the answers within themselves. That's what I'm about. And like I say on my profile, I think when people say, well, what's your agenda? It's in my profile and service to others. No, no expectations, not selling anything, happy to help.

But also to that end, you know, because of the things that I've been through, you also have to have your own healthy boundaries too. I mean, I have to take time for myself and to care for myself because that's part of how I have my best to help others as that old saying goes, you know, heal or heal thyself first, you know, and if you're going to be involved in facilitation work with others, you don't have to be perfect, but you do have to be continuously working on yourself and better yourself because that's how you help other people with better themselves. Yeah, so that brings up a point I wanted to get to,

to get your opinion on. When you talk about self-love and forgiveness and giving up on people or people giving up on themselves. So you've been through a big change and I know that a lot of us have too. Do you feel that in order to change, you have to give up on your old self? And how does that, what's the relationship between giving up? Maybe we're talking about surrender here. Is surrender the same as giving up on yourself? Maybe we could talk about that relationship. That's a really, really great question George. Thank you. Well, you ask a lot of great questions, but I really love that question because I have really

been spending not days or weeks, but a good half year on the word and the question is surrender. And a lot of people, to your point and your question, I think they look at surrender as giving up, throwing in a towel defeat. it's just the opposite. Surrender is truly, and this is my opinion, and people are going to resonate with it or not, and that's fine.

But in my opinion, surrender is surrendering to something more powerful, to something to a higher, to your higher power, to God, to something that empowers you, you know. and surrender is basically going with the flow. It's falling into that stream of consciousness that really is truly in balance. You know, I know Dr. Hansen had left a comment earlier, and Fran and I are really good friends that we talk quite often. And we were talking about a month and a half ago,

And we had, we're talking about kind of comparing the idea of Hindu yogis and Buddhist monks and also what Native Americans call Hayoka or Holy Men. And when people in the world see these wise sages perform what would appear to be miracles defying the law of physics, people, they get stopped. they get stuck with this. And as Ram Dass once said, you know, there's a famous Sanskrit text called Patanjali Sutras, which talks about the 1,200 cities or mystical powers that man can develop. But as Ram Dass said, it's not about the pursuit of powers. It's about, you know, staying on the path and finding enlightenment. And so when people see these women and men perform these miracles,

they're in on, they think, oh, I'd like to do that. But it's not about that they're making a demonstration for the sake and making a demonstration. And I think what I've ultimately come to realize is that what these people are doing, is they're in exact harmony with spirit and with earth. So they're actually not forcing anything. Like when we think of force of will, that's often associated with rich. as opposed to like miracles, which are basically inspired by God. But I think more importantly, you know, a miracle is really a soul being in complete alignment

with God and in balance with nature. And so you're not forcing anything to happen. You're working in harmony with it. And nature can't help but to respond to an individual whose consciousness and vibration is in harmony with it. Whether that's doing healing work, whether it's stopping a bus from killing people, you know, potentially running through an intersection. Consciousness is an amazing thing. Yeah, it's mind blowing me.

It is mind blowing to me to see the perspective or see your own perspective change when you are in a state of, an altered state of, consciousness or you're in alignment or you know we have a lot of different words to explain what god is you know however i think all not all of us but a lot of us have been in in altered states where we've seen ourselves from a different perspective and we've had this moment of clarity sometimes you'll hear the alcoholic talk about their moment of clarity where they were able to change their life or you hear about someone who has just lost a child and in this great pain or a loved one and they all of a sudden something hits them and they see the world different. And it's almost like something in you has to die in order for something else to grow in its

place, whether that's the suppression of the ego or maybe that's part of you, your soul growing. It's, I'm still working on the whole idea of surrender and what that means. But I can, I'm kind of fleshing it out here. It may not make perfect sense, but I'm just kind of working with it right now. What do you think? I think, you know, you mentioned you kind of referenced, you reference the points about possibly the ego dying. And it's not dying at all. I think of it more if there's an analogy, if you think of it as sort of being the seed that gets put into the fertile ground, you know, you have a hard husk.

The husk eventually cracks. And from that, the germ within germinates and grow. or if you think of the analogy of the caterpillar, when it literally goes into the chrysalis, a lot of people are unaware, but its body becomes completely liquefied. And when it emerges from the chrysalis, you have this beautiful, still not quite a butterfly. It's literally like a fetus coming out of the chrysalis.

But as it opens its wings, it takes this new form. And when we surrender, we are not losing our identity. We are not becoming someone different. We will still have ego challenges. We will still, and that'll bring me to another point in a minute, that back to our society, it's just that I think we become more in touch and more in harmony with our creator

and with nature and with the world. And when I think you are in that harmony, you will find, you can't help but find that your life will change. In yoga, there's often references to kundalini yoga. Sad Guru talks about that quite a bit, or the awakening of Shakti. and he talks about how kundalini yoga is the most dangerous because he says it will either enlighten you or it will drive you absolutely mad and when you embrace or for example start to have these awakenings they really are mind-blowing and for people who are not prepared you literally feel like you're going nuts when i had my first experience at uh

24, I thought I was flipping out. I mean, there's actually a term for it. It's, uh, the medical term is physio-cundalini syndrome. And oftentimes people will check into the ER and the doctors end up putting them on adadin or, um, or lauazepam, you know, or check them in for 72-hour hold, but they're actually having a kudalini experience. It's something that's very well known in other parts of the world, but not in the U.S. But as you start to have these experiences more and more, or even like with psychedelics, back to psychedelics, Alan Watts talks about the transformation that he went through and how, again, he shed the desire for materialism and for self-endgrandizement and started seeking, you know, leading the life of renunciate.

And I'm not saying that that's everyone's choice, you know, as Sad Guru says, you know, business owners, et cetera, could still potentially practice kundalini yoga. or have experiences, but it just is that much harder because you feel more of a compulsion, I think, spiritually to want to know more. And so with surrender, you're not sacrificing. I think that's the big thing that people don't understand. You're not sacrificing yourself, your identity. You're not sacrificing really anything about you.

you're really becoming softer. You're becoming more valuable. You're becoming who you really are. And again, I think that goes back to the phrase, you know, the greatest gift that we have to give is our own spiritual transformation. Again, we're not perfect. I mean, you know, like we were talking about,

you drive down the road, I drive down the road. Maybe it's you and I at the intersection and we make the wrong move. And it's both you and me, and we know each other. like thinking, oh, who is this asshole, you know? Oh, that's tough. Oh, that's George.

Hey, wait a minute. You know, what am I thinking? That was wrong. You know, but it's funny because sometimes we even have those experiences with friends, you know. And I find that in my life today, like that experience with, you know, my former's daughter, it comes down to the choices that we make. And we're still going to make wrong choices. But I think when we do, the other thing that came to me out of this one particular psychedelic experience,

and I'm trying not to focus too much on that because it's going to lead me to the next point about the inner work, which is what they also said is when you make a mistake, and they said, and your ego will be challenged, that you will make mistakes every day. They said, try to be more forgiving of yourself. and of the other person or if you set up the other person and of yourself and try to be more loving

you don't get anywhere by beating yourself up and you know there's the phrase in psychology also about shame versus guilt do you know what the difference is I don't I always think of it like

the purpose of guilt is not to play it over in your head a thousand times the purpose of guilt is not to do it again But I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't I'm curious to how you would hold shame and guilt and explain them. Uh, a therapist of mine once said, and again, I believe therapy is a great thing, but you have to be willing to do the work.

And if you're not willing to be to work, it doesn't get you anymore. But a great therapist once told me, um, guilt is knowing you've done something wrong. Shame is believing you're a bad person. Mm-hmm. And all of us know. shame. And many of us, unfortunately, that's the cross that we bear on our backs every day is shame and the effects, the detrimental effects of what shame can do. And so to your point about surrender, I think, and even where psychedelics came, coming back to that, you know, all these retreats

and these people that are out there doing it, whether it's, you know, evoga, ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin, LSD, whatever. I'm not myself personally I'm not a big fan of the pharmaceuticals but it can help people to have these breakthroughs to come to these understandings and there again I think they can be powerful medicines to help us come to a point where we're ready to do the work but I think again sort of like that fork in the road there's two choices do we go do we go off to the right and do we keep coming back to the medicine but then the East Indians have a term for that. They call it a false samadhi. Samadhi is the breathless state that you can achieve during meditation. And a false samadhi is that which is induced by something outside of spirit or or meditation, yoga, breathwork, pramayama. So when you talk about, you know, psychedelics, so many people again, rather than going down the other path, which is once you've had the breakthrough over here with psychedelics, then you're at this place where you're at the fork and the road.

And you say, okay, do I keep going to psychedelics or do I go down the other path now and start to do the inner work? And that inner work, you know, and again, I'm not here to pontificate, but that for many will be therapy, mindfulness practices such as meditation, diet, exercise, yoga, breathwork, Hanayama. And it's not going to happen quick. It's not putting the microwave dinner into the microwave, I'm pressing a minute and a half. And then, you know, wow, hey, that was great. I'm good to go. But see, then that's where people again,

they want to keep coming back to psychedelics. Well, gosh, you know, it's been about a week. I think I need to go back to church and get the sacrament again. Or I need to, you know, get, you know, take another journey. And they keep taking journeys and they keep having these mystical experiences, but they're false samadis. The real work ultimately happens right here. 12-inch journey, head to heart, 12 inches, 12 inches between here and here.

That's where the journey is. That's where the medicine is. That's where the real strength is. That's where Native Americans will tell you even with sacraments and indigenous people, that ceremony and ritual is the far greater aspect rather than the psychedelic that's involved. The psychedelic, sure, is important because it does help as a bridge from conscious mind to super-continental. mind. But, you know, to Ram Dass's point, you know, Ram Dass when he was with Timothy Leary in 1961, and many might know that Ram Dass was a teacher of mine and a man that I had

met several times today, even to this day, even though he's passed, he's still allowed and he's still accessible. If you follow Buddhist tradition, they talk about that as a bardo, you know, souls, they're never gone. They're still here. And they communicate with us and we can communicate with them. And as Ram Dass said, you know, he had been taking on one continuous psychedelic high from 1961 to 1968 until he met his guru, Neme Baba Karoli. And there's a famous story where he dosed up his guru on seven microdads of LSD because his guru said, I'd like to try your medicine. And Ram Dass gives it to him. And all of a sudden he starts out, you know, his guru starts acting a little crazy. And he's thinking, oh, my God, what did I do? I

just I'm going to put this man in a state of psychosis. And about five minutes later, being Bob and cruelly shrugged his shoulder and said, it didn't really do anything for me. And now Ram Dass is blown away. And he says, what do you mean? I gave you enough for a horse. And he said, when you're already in the state of consciousness,

I don't need the medicine to get me there. And that's been something that before I even had my first psychedelic experience, I've been doing trans and dental meditation since I was 16 years old. You know, I mean, you can achieve the state of consciousness. And even after psychedelics, you can achieve that. But also, be kind to yourself. Don't expect results immediately. Be kind to yourself.

Be gentle. It's like the Buddha say, chop wood, carry water. Keep up your spiritual and your mindfulness practices. It will come. But it's not going to happen fast. And that's the delusion or what the East Indians call Maya, the illusion of our society. We want everything so, so, so fast. And that which is worthwhile, an art, you know, a concerto and masterpiece and artwork, it takes time.

You know, it's not a chia. Yeah. It makes me wonder, it seems that we have. We find ourselves in a time where the sacrament is available, but we simultaneously find ourselves in a place without. I'm sorry. I always get stuck on that one. That's my own bias. Sorry, but not even interrupt.

It seems that like the medicine or the potential to have a psychedelic trip is readily available these days. But what seems missing is the ritual and the ceremony. And maybe that means the spiritual nature, too. It seems like that is absent. Like so many people are getting up and going to work and living a life that is without fulfillment. And if you look back just a few generations, like in the Mexican culture, the Spanish culture, they have the kinsignera for the girls when they become a woman. And some of the Native American tribes would, you know, they would go on the hunt for the boy to become a man.

But it seems in the Western culture, you know, there's really no right of passage. There's no ceremony. There's no ritual. And so if you have, you know, love without marriage or if you have this without that, you only have one part of the trivium. Instead of having the three parts or instead of having things come together, you're just holding on to one. And it's very difficult to get a good view of what's happening if you only have one perspective.

Would you agree or do you think that's a problem? Yeah, I agree completely with what you're saying. And I also agree, yes. I think it's a problem with the world that we live in today. You know, again, psychedelics, when they, when psychedelics in their original organic form came into being, it was the relationship that people had that were actually in balance with nature. That's how they discovered these medicines.

And then modern man takes these medicines and thinks, ah, I think I can perfect what God's created. And I think I can do this a little bit better. So I'll take psilocybin and then I'll make silicin. Or I'll take Iboga and I'll make Ibogaine. Or I'll create something that never existed before like LSD. And, you know, these medicines, again, have a time and a place. You know, but again, in my perspective, when you talk about experience and people

transcending, you can have that experience walking in a forest. You can have that experience on a beach. You know, I have a friend of mine, Ken Kosentino, and he and I have been recently talking quite a bit about Native American tradition. He's been involved in Sundance, and we were talking about Hayoka, which is a Native American holy man, and, you know, part of Hayoka is, you know, part of The Eoka is that it's a calling. And one of the key aspects of the calling, which is only a part of a very, very long process, it's not something, again, that's a microwave situation. But it is about being touched by Wauquignan, which is thunderbeams or thunderlightening.

And, you know, we can have these transcendental experiences, these life-changing experiences virtually anywhere. There have been people that have talked about having these experiences with a near-death experience, which doesn't involve psychedelics at all. You know, some people have had all of the above. I've had two near-death experiences in my life. I've been struck by lightning. I mean, people say, dude, you're full of crap.

Fine, fine. I'm not looking for believers. I'm not looking, you know, my story is my story. You know, there's people that I know that have made a living. I'm talking about one near-death experience, you know, and that's great, you know. You know, I marvel when I look at what a life is and what I feel our obligations are spiritually. There's people that have been through it all, literally. I mean, thrown into the wood chipper and come out the other end and have gone through amazing.

transformations and there's been people that have had hardly any trials or tribulations in their life and fall apart. I mean, there's another story about the NASA Biosphere. Do you know this story? No, please, share it if you can. When the biosphere was created in the late 80s, it was created down in Arizona as being a self-contained environment that was going to be utilized to study the terms of the aspects of long-term space travel. So they took seven astronauts, scientists, doctors, and put them into the space and said, okay, once you're in, you're in for six months. And we don't let you out. So you guys have to figure it out because this is basically simulating long-term space travel. And the first thing they came to understand was that they

didn't have enough food. And they did have an arboretum. What they found out with these individuals is their day extended from 24 hours to 27 hours. And these individuals also lost an average of about 27 pounds apiece. But one of the beautiful aspects that I think also reminds us of the world today is they lead tours through this and they have the arboretum. And they tell people when they go through the arboretum, don't touch the plants. And of course, the first question that people ask is, why can't we touch the plants? Because now they want to touch the plants.

And they say, well, these plants have never experienced any kind of physiological stress. They're so weak that if you touch them, their stem spray. So NASA said, aha, we have an aha moment here. I think we realized that in order for this to be successful, we have to create something that's going to strengthen these plants. Got it. We're going to create an agitated. We're going to create something that brushes over these plants why they're growing. and as they grow, the agitator raises and keeps rushing over them.

So this is also a wonderful example of our lives. Our lives are a microcosm in a world that's filled with stress. So as that old saying goes, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. Now, there are people in this world that will curl up in a ball and die, and there are people in this world that will continue to live. Now, how those people live beyond that becomes a choice. do we get bitter? Do we become angry?

Do we get filled with rage? Blame the world for our consequences? Yep, I was one. Oh, I was one most of my life. I was a raging asshole for a long, long, long time. Own it, got the T-shirt. Have the T-shirt factory. And then there are people that learn the lesson very quickly and they evolve.

And like Lynette Grable, people that at a very, very young age went through, you know, being on a street at 13 and having everything that you can imagine happened to a young Native American woman happened. And she evolved and said, I'm going to take my experiences and I'm going to put my experiences to good to benefit other people. Now we can change anytime we choose, but how we change can sometimes come by again, hitting rock bottom. Sometimes when we hear rock bottom, we climb out of the hole. We get up to the top. We're like, great, we're up. We're out of the hole. And God says, I think you better take another look and pushes us back out into the hole.

Oh, we fall back in the hole. We climb back up. Sometimes God says, no, better go have another look. Into the hole, we go again. But eventually, again, we can come to that. understanding that we are going to change because we choose to change. And then when we change, again, it's not that we become, we make a sacrifice, we throw in the towel, we give up, we just surrender and we evolve. And it's not easy. It can be very painful because you

have to come to the understanding of what and who you've been. And you've been. And you've been. And have to own it. But I think the quicker we're willing to go through those doors, the faster we change. Again, psychedelics, what I found, and again, I don't mean to keep going to this, but like, in my experience is what I found, which is very interesting, and I don't know if this is a common denominator with people across the board, but with psychedelics, I found a very strong biblical referential point, which is the aspect of free will. that when you're in the experience, when people talk about having a bad trip, you know, there are people out there that have two schools of thought. One is there is no such thing as a bad trip.

It's your resistance to the experience. Or some people say, no, you're indeed having a bad trip. I tend to look at it as I think of it myself, and this is just my paradigm, that it's more resistance. but what I found when I was going through my experiences, every one of my psychedelic experiences would be what people would call a bad trip. But the difference was I absolutely surrendered. So where that biblical aspect of free will comes in is, for me, it was represented almost a Native American tradition of the door.

I would go through a door. I would have the experience. When the experience would end, I would come back to another door. and the guides would say, are you ready to go through the next door? So it was a choice. I could have stopped right then and there and then gone off into some, you know, psychedelic trips and seeing colors, hearing auditory hallucinations, so I could do more work on myself.

So I went through door after door after door, and they kept saying you're overthinking this time. You get too much into the analytical stuff. Don't try to think it. Just understand that this will come to you over months and over the years. You were going through a process of physiological, emotional, and spiritual healing, and you will continue to evolve. So, I mean, I went through every single door. They threw at me, and it was horrific.

I mean, it was like Jake Plummer talks about, you know, the NFL football player about his experience with ayahuaski. He said it was horrific. He went through every conceivable death that he could imagine. I had some very similar type experiences, but also experiences that were very much on a psychological level that I would say can be even more excruciating sometimes than they're physiological. But again, everyone's experience is different. And just like everyone's evolution is different. Same thing with healing.

Some people heal very rapidly. Some don't. It is all personal and subjective to our own desire, our own path. Yeah, that's well said. I think that everybody has their own. path to walk and they can learn from other people and they can have mentors along the way and they can hopefully become a better version of themselves. And I do, I want to ask you this question. Do you think that like all of us have these tragedies in our life and some of them take us to the precipice of

self-destruction? But I think that all those tragedies are necessary for you to become the person you're supposed to become, for you to become the best version of yourself, these are the things that are in front of you, these obstacles, whether it's a loved one dying or maybe you doing something horrific. In some weird way, all these things that are happening to you are forcing you to change in a way that will allow you to become the best version of yourself. What do you think? I absolutely agree. I don't know if you know Mark Guckle. He's a lot of, he's, brilliant writer if you've read any of his post on LinkedIn he has a profound story as well we all do his is really amazing I mean in essence we become I think if you believe in reincarnation or

not you know or spiritual development even in a particular life you know you can be everything from murderer and I don't when I say Messiah I do not mean price complex or anything is good with that. But in other words, we can be our own jailer and we can be our own liberator. And we can be our own teacher. And we can, even with a guru or a teacher, an honest guru or a teacher will tell you

that they are not the answer. Right. And it is up to you to basically find your path and to find your way. Excuse me. Regarding your question about, I believe you said, how do we overcome tragedy or trauma or what happens when we face that, I personally think it's an obligation that we have. The people, honestly, that I gravitate more to in my life these days are the people that have been through it all. I mean, I would be more likely to sit down and have a cup of soup with someone who's on the street because there isn't going to be any bullshit.

It's going to be authenticity. It's going to be genuine presence. Someone who has, you know, been involved in a crime, committed their crime, done their time, but is making an attempt to change their life. Some people judge them. and they still hold them accountable to their past. And that's fine. But the bigger difference, because that's the person who's judging as the old saying goes,

judge not this you be judged. But that's that person's own trap. Now, the person who's come out of that situation, who's indeed trying to change their life and go forward, that person, I think, is the person who deserves recognition and honor, because they're doing what the other who stands in judgment is not. And we all judge. I still judge.

And like I said, I see stuff in this psychedelics community that just makes me roll my eyes and want to vomit at times. And that is my own judgment and I own it. And I don't comment on it because I also understand karma. And I also understand that these souls will have their own karma. And if I get involved in their karma, then I'm taking that on. But I am more in tune, I think, these days with people that really are wanting to make changes in their life. And I've acknowledged that they've screwed up, that they've made mistakes. You know, those are what I call my people.

Those are people that I resonate with. You know, I don't know if I coined this because I've never really seen it anywhere else and it's not a big deal. but I've used the phrase, I guess, for a quarter century or more now, show me a perfect person and I'll show you a perfect liar. You know, and that's really the truth. Some people say, oh, well, you know, Jesus Christ. Well, you know, I think I take maybe a different view on that too. I tend to look at it more as a man with empathy too.

I mean, I look at, you know, even the Christ's consciousness as being a state of consciousness that he occupied a vast majority amount of the time. And when you're in that consciousness, that's what allows you to, in essence, perform miracles to vibrate in harmony with the planet. But he was a man, too. He had anguish. He had fear.

He had sadness. And he experienced moments of rage. And people say, no, no, no, no. Well, why did you light the big tree? Why did you cast the money changers out at the temple? You know, sure, he got pissed off. we all do and that just goes to show you that even the most perfect person on the planet when you're in a physical body you know in a bone sack you have ego you know did he handle it better than most yeah

now a lot of people would say you're a blasphemy man okay then i'll i'll have my penance and when i appear before st peter although i don't really believe in that i've had my near-death experiences I'm pretty convinced what happens and where I'll be going after this. And I kind of think that God's not been in me saying what I just said. And I certainly like that Jesus won't. I know that I'm forgiven. Yeah, it's well said. It's a beautiful journey.

And I'm excited for our future, Tom. I really am stoked to talk to you and get to know you more after these few conversations that we've had. And I think that we share a lot of common ideas. I'm, before we begin to, as we begin to land the plane here, like, where can people find you? What do you got coming up? And what are you excited about? Where can they find me? I'm someone who's going to be continuing to move further and further into the background.

I use the example of you, you're aware of the Buddhist Mandala, right? I am. They create this beautiful work of art, and then they destroy. spread the sand. I don't necessarily follow that tradition about art, but I believe if you create something, you do have an ego attachment, but I also believe, as the old saying goes, when you really love something, let it go. And if it comes back to you, great. So when I also created both these groups, I've already turned over co-ownership in the mushroom group to Jeremy Williams, really great guy, a natural reader, really, really love what he does. And the other admins in the group,

I put in 10 admins. The admins in our psychedelic group. I mean, the truth is, you know, when I said in my profile psychedelic ethicist, that was because no one was using the term ethics and integrity. And that's what I wanted to bring to this. But my goal is the year and a half, you know, people say, will you be in psychedelics? We ever leave retreats? never no I'm a spiritual guy that's what I say you know my my goal is my own journey and I'm thinking that it may not be maybe in the next 18 months I may just disappear off within altogether because I think a lot of it is just too much AI too artificial love this like that and I believe it's what we

do. It's the real work that we do out in the world. I mean, this isn't, don't get me wrong. This platform has this little space that you occupy that I'm in, that others are in, that is a place where people can come that may not be able to have access to the outer world. And in that respect, we provide a great service and we provide opportunity. We provide an educational space. but again, I leave it to the people like you and the others that I mentioned that are going to carry that further forward. What am I going to be doing in the future?

Well, I hope in the next several months I'll be doing Sundance. And I'm not talking to film festival. Do you know what Sundance is? I don't know. It's Native American. tradition, you might want to Google it. Yeah, check it out.

It's not a process of pain endurance or tolerance. People so misunderstand that. They really think of it almost as something completely opposite of what it is. It's about transcendence and it's about, again, complete surrender, turning yourself over to a higher calling in and leading a life of service. And it's a process also where when I say my people, there's people there that come from all walks of life. Mostly Native American tradition, but not always. Or Native American background.

And, you know, there's been people that have killed people that, you know, are there. And it's a very, it's a very, very, very physiologically and emotionally and spiritually stressful situation. I mean, there's people who die there because of heat exhaustion. But it is something that I had an opportunity to do it in 1994. It was too young. I was too arrogant, too conceited and filled with self. But I think I'm ready. And I'm ready to continue the journey in being in service to others.

And to that end, as I always say to my friends, George, if there's ever anything that I can do for you, I'm a connect the dots kind of guy. I connect people to people is what I do best. And, you know, I'm always here to help, you know, and that's really what I plan on continuing to do. You know, I'm blessed to have the people in my life like you and the others that I mentioned. And to that end, you know, I also have to thank my greatest teacher. People say, oh, Ram Dass, and I say, no, it's my 83-year-old godfile.

Dave. You know, when you talked earlier, just really brief transcript, you know, transition, you talked about being on the precipice of potentially taking your life. We've all been there. I mean, God knows, I've sat on the edge of my bed with a handgun in my lap, more times probably than a lot of people. But it was also with the spiritual understanding and knowing that I, based on my beliefs about reincarnation, I knew if I did this, I'll be right back. Lickety-split. And I'll be all the lessons to go through again. And I think also that I'm reminded of the poet Santiana who says, quote, the thought of suicide sustains many a man through a dark night. And I think, again, that becomes whether you call it a challenge of ego, whether you call it a spiritual wake-up call, it's our resilience.

can we take that extra breath? Can we live that extra minute, which becomes an hour, which becomes a day, which becomes two days? And then, again, thinking about, like the Buddhist thought, about dropping good pebbles into the pond, you know, they say make sure that the pebbles you drop into the pond are good, because the rings travel out to the edge of the pond

and they always return back to center. So I think when we think, about doing harm to ourselves or even to others, ultimately, we hurt ourselves the most. But if we take ourselves out of a lifetime, who knows, it's speculative, but what our greater gift is that we could have been. And I think there again, that's where I think this process of the greatest gift that we have to give is our own personal transformation. That's, I think, also symbolic of what's involved, you know, with Sundance and the medicine, the powerful medicine involved with it.

I guess what I would ask you, George, if I could take the forward is what we're doing here in the future. I want to know. I want to see you in a podcast. What are you going to be doing in the future? Well, I appreciate it. For me, it's been a journey, this whole podcasting and beginning to. tell myself a different story about who I am. And I have really, in the last three years since I've been podcasting, it's been such an

amazing experience for me. It's gone from me learning about myself to me becoming someone that I'm so thankful that people will share their stories with me. And it's allowed me to see myself and other people. And it's allowed me, much like you, to begin connecting other people together. It's such a rewarding experience to be able to see someone tell a story. And I get to go, oh my gosh, I know someone who's telling a similar story. It would be beautiful if their stories would be able to be intertwined. And so for me, I see myself growing as a podcaster, potentially taking the show on the road and just beginning to, I'm trying to see myself as medicine, trying to see myself as

something that people can take in and begin to heal themselves with. And I don't mean that to be in an arrogant way, but I want to be the medicine that helps people open their eyes. I want to be the medicine that helps people get through another day. I want to be the medicine that makes people laugh and smile and feel good about themselves, man. So that's kind of what I got going on. Is that too crazy to think about or what? Oh, I love that, man.

It's jokingly up about taking it on the road. I think, you know, that is so beautiful because it's really the truth, you know, taking it, taking our message. You know, again, it's sort of like the proverbial blueberry muffin, right? Or you're you're psychedelics, right? You know, you can have these great blueberry muffins, but you know, there's so much better when someone can smell the aroma, and then they come to the table and say, may I have one? But if you shove it down someone's throat,

kind of like the psychedelics Renaissance right now, what do people do? They vomit. They want to get it. But you know what? What you offer is this wonderful gift, you know, And it is very, very selfless. And I think that idea of taking it on the road, I think that's amazing. I mean, there's thoughts going through my mind that we'll talk about later about some things that I think, you know, we could get you involved in that with some bigger events that are happening right now.

I'm working with a number of people in the background, which is where I like to be today, putting together things that help. people. And I think, you know, having someone like you present or being able to do a podcast tell a story would be amazing. Yeah, I think we share some similar ideas and backgrounds and the ultimate goal of trying to make everyone around us better by transforming ourselves, becoming the best we can be is something that's inspiring. And ultimately, that's what we want to do. We want to inspire people to become the best version of themselves. And sometimes it's hard to share stories that sharpened us or, you know, but those are the stories that people find themselves attracted to because who knows, we were these young knuckleheads at one point in time.

And sometimes we still are these knuckleheads and we need people to learn from. So that's, I really appreciate Tom. I could talk to you for another hour and I'm sure we'll be back on and we'll be doing more together. So thank you very much for your time today. I'm going to put all your, all your connections to the groups in there and where they can reach out to you if they want to learn more. And is there anything else you want to say before we go?

I just really appreciate the opportunity. And, you know, this experience, you've actually been a teacher to me. And I think it's what you said at the very last about the gift that you're offering, the world, you know, and wanting to take this on the road. I think you found your calling. Well, thank you. It makes me feel good. And what a great Valentine's gift we get from people that, there's people that are listening

and want to learn more. And happy Valentine's Day to everybody. I hope everybody has a beautiful day. I hope you have something to do, someone to love and something to look forward to. Happy Valentine's Day. Tom, I love you, buddy. Thanks for coming on the show today.

And we'll talk again soon. Thanks. Of course. Let me just cut this part here.