TrueLife - Unburdened by Belief - Joshua Pritikin

Episode Date: July 18, 2026

Support the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USOne on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingLadies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. In today's episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Joshua Pritiken, a psychologist, IFS practitioner, and author of the thought-provoking book "Religion Unburdened by Belief." Joshua's work delves into a fundamental question at the crossroads of psychology, religion, mysticism, and philosophy: What if the essence of spiritual life lies not in the accumulation of beliefs, but in cultivating an openness to mystery?  ### The Burden of Belief: An Exploration  In our conversation, we explored the idea that belief might not only be integral to religion but could also be its greatest burden. Joshua's insights challenge conventional wisdom by suggesting that the expectations tied to beliefs often prevent genuine exploration and understanding. For instance, he references the work of James Carse, whose book inspired him to examine the dichotomy between belief and religion more deeply.  ### Understanding Different Types of Beliefs  Joshua categorizes beliefs into two distinct types: content beliefs, which pertain to specific doctrines or outcomes, and process beliefs, which guide practices like meditation. He argues that while process beliefs are essential for spiritual practices, content beliefs often create unnecessary barriers to true spiritual experience. An example he shares is the risk of having preconceived notions about meditation, which can limit the depth of experience and understanding.  ### Embracing Uncertainty  A significant theme in our discussion is the discomfort many feel regarding uncertainty. In today's world, where a false sense of certainty is often constructed, Joshua encourages listeners to embrace uncertainty as a pathway to deeper understanding. He draws parallels between this uncertainty and experiences with psychedelics, suggesting that the lack of certainty can lead to profound insights and connections to the mystery of life.  ### From Belief to Knowledge  We also touched on how beliefs can evolve into knowledge. Joshua explains that the context and type of evidence required to validate beliefs vary greatly. For example, beliefs about the weather can be easily verified, while beliefs in more abstract domains, like art or religion, often lack definitive evidence. This leads to the conclusion that while it's not inherently bad to hold beliefs, we should approach them with a degree of skepticism and openness.  ### Key Takeaways  1. **Challenge the Burden of Belief:** Recognize how beliefs can limit spiritual growth and understanding.  2. **Differentiate Between Beliefs:** Understand the distinction between content and process beliefs and their relevance to spiritual practices.  3. **Embrace Uncertainty:** Learn to find comfort in uncertainty as a pathway to deeper insights.  4. **Evolve Beliefs into Knowledge:** Acknowledge the importance of evidence and context in validating beliefs.  In conclusion, Joshua's perspective offers a refreshing lens through which to view spirituality and the role of belief. By fostering a sense of openness to mystery and uncertainty, we can enrich our spiritual journeys and cultivate a deeper understanding of ourselves and the world around us. If you'd like to explore more about Joshua Pritiken's insights, check out his book "Religion Unburdened by Belief."  For more on this topic, consider listening to the full episode of the True Life Podcast.Buy the book: https://www.amazon.com/Religion-Unburdened-Belief-Open-Inquiry-ebook/dp/B0GT24Z79H One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Legal Disclaimer / Release of Liability for Podcast:This  content  is for educational and informational purposes only. Nothing in this transmission constitutes legal, financial, or professional advice. I am not your lawyer, financial advisor, or telling you what to do.This podcast documents historical events, analyzes publicly available information, and explores hypothetical scenarios. Any actions discussed are presented as educational examples of how systems work—not as instructions or recommendations.You are solely responsible for your own decisions and actions. Any application of information presented here is at your own risk. I assume no liability for consequences of actions you choose to take.By continuing to listen, you acknowledge that this content is educational commentary, that you’re responsible for researching applicable laws in your jurisdiction, and that you’ll consult appropriate professionals before taking any action that could affect your legal, financial, or personal situation.

Turn on. Take the power back. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope you having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back. I have with me today. Today's guest is Joshua Pridikin,

a psychologist, IFS, practitioner, researcher, and author of the provocative new book, religion unburdened by belief. Joshua is exploring a question that sits at the intersection of psychology, religion, mysticism, and philosophy. What if the purpose of spiritual life isn't to accumulate beliefs, but to cultivate the capacity to remain open to mystery? In a culture increasingly divided by certainty,

his work challenges us to rethink transformation itself. Not as a destination, but as an ongoing practice of inquiry. Joshua, welcome to the True Life podcast. How are you? Yeah, good, good. Very happy to be here. I'm grateful you're here. And you have written an incredible new book that seems to be a culmination of life skills and goes in a lot of interesting directions, especially for me and my audience about the idea of mystery, belief, religion. What was it that sort of inspired this book? Yeah, so I just have to. I happened to run into James Carson's book, The Religious Case Against Belief.

Let's see, when was it around 2020 or 2022? I can't remember. And I was just amazed that this book had been around. I hadn't noticed it. Like it had been published 10 years before I found out about it. And I was so excited. I felt like his analysis was very insightful. And so that's kind of where I got the idea that belief and religion, we should explore how they could be separated.

Because that's what, that was kind of the thesis of his book. But then about halfway through his book, I felt like he kind of dropped the ball. Like he didn't really develop the argument to its fullest extent. And that's what I felt I could do with this book. And so that's kind of, I kind of see it as a sequel of James. Carson's book. Nice. Yeah, it's interesting to think about the idea of belief and religion and organized religion

and how the beliefs sort of change our worldview. You know, your title may be one of the most provocative religious titles that, well, it is one of the most provocative religious titles I've heard in a while. Religion unburdened by belief. Most people assume belief is religion. You're suggesting belief may actually be religion's greatest burden. What burden are we carrying? Okay, so, like, Kars kind of set the direction,

but his proposal, like, needs some practical refinement to really, like, understand in more, like, when you actually try to apply his proposal, we need to get more specific about which beliefs we're talking about. So that's what I do in the first chapter is I developed the different categories of beliefs. One kind of belief is a content belief that's like believing something about, you know, how many heavens there are or basically it's the, kind of the results of a religious inquiry.

And then there are also processed beliefs, which are kind of like how you can do a religious practice. And so when Kars says religious without beliefs, he's really, I think what he's really pointing at is the content beliefs because you need process beliefs. Like if you want to practice meditation, then you have to believe you can sit still, you can have some control over your mind.

that you have some volition to do that practice. So those beliefs are necessary to enable the practice. But the content beliefs you don't necessarily need, like the beliefs about what you're going to obtain in your meditation practice. So like the outcomes of these practices, those, if you have expectations about what you're going to achieve or realize, then those are probably content beliefs. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I heard a good quote once that said, high expectations make poor travel companions. And it makes me think about the preconceived notions of what meditation will give you, what psychedelics will give you, or what religion will give you. And we have those sort of ideas of what it's going to give us,

we sort of wall our self-offer. from the mystery or from the real self-discovery. What do you think about that? Yeah, that is a risk. Like the story I like to retell is, you know, when Moses encountered the burning bush, he didn't have preconceived ideas about what it meant. Like if he had felt like, oh, this is a, you know,

he had some superstitions about it. Oh, it's an ill omen, you know, I can't approach a burning bush. Then history might have turned out different. but since he approached that Burning Bush with an open mind and then he developed like a philosophy, a way to live life from that experience. And so that's what I also recommend is that if we can

produce the conviction we have in our expectations and our beliefs about what would happen, then we allow ourselves to be open to whatever is shown us. Yeah. As well said, for me that brings up sort of this idea of uncertainty. You know, a lot of people find the idea of uncertainty very unsettling. In fact, I would imagine myself included to my own experience, but many people, they want to be certain about stuff. And it seems like this idea of belief, especially in the spiritual nature, finds, helps us obtain some certainty and maybe takes away the risk or something like that.

Does that kind of make sense? What is your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, uncertainty can be unsettling if you don't know where you are. You don't know where you're going. That can make people very uneasy. So in a, I mean, it's just like a, it's, but what if we, what if you just kind of learn to sit with that? What's it like to feel uncertain? Like, is it really that bad?

I don't think so. But in today's world, it seems like we've built everything around this false sense of certainty. Like, okay, you're going to grow up. You're going to get a job. You're going to have a family. You're going to do this thing. People go to school to get an identity or an education to become certain about how much money they're going to make. But in reality, that's kind of all bullshit.

Like, there is no real certainty. Well, I think you're you're exaggerating the strength of your case a little bit. Good. But like in some ways, I agree with you. Like, for example, the artificial intelligence stuff that has come out in the last few years. I mean, that has definitely created a lot of uncertainty and economic dislocation. so I mean I can relate to you when if we put it in that light

Do you think that uncertainty sort of is the only way to really get close to the mystery? I'll give you an example. Like when it comes to psychedelics, at least in my perspective, like there's nothing, there's nothing to really be certain about. Like you find yourself in these deep states

and maybe the the preconceived notions of what's going to happen fall away. Like there's, but it's that uncertainty that brings you closer to, I don't know, for me it's the uncertainty that I am sort of, that I gravitate towards. Like what is going to happen or what is happening now or how do I make sense of this? That to me is where all, a lot of the meaningfulness comes from those experiences, spiritual, psychedelic, it is the uncertainty on some level. So now you're arguing the other side.

First he said, oh, uncertainty is very uncomfortable. And now you're like, oh, actually uncertainty is what attracts me to these practices. So which is it? Well, for me, it's both. And I think it speaks to where I am in my life. Like, I grew up wanting certainty. And as I gravitate later in life, like I've seen lots of, I've had a lot of recent experiences with death, with like my wife getting cancer.

I had a child that passed away. And all of these experiences have helped me become more comfortable with uncertainty and sort of shown me that there really is not a whole lot of certainty out there. And the things that I grasped onto as certain were not really there. There were just things that I made up in my mind. So I guess I'm oscillating between the two. Well, and another, I'm not sure that this speaks directly to your concern. And I'm sorry to hear that you've had some personal chat.

with people close to you passing away. And is that still, those are feeling still raw? No, I feel like I've been able to integrate them. And quite honestly, I have learned that those were some of the most spiritual and beautiful things that have happened to me. Like I feel like I've gotten to understand and been given lessons about how beautiful life is today. Because I lost those things.

Because I lost the certainty, I'm able to grasp a bigger picture of where I am today and how beautiful life is every single day. Well, kudos that you've been able to use those experiences to grow in your appreciation of life. When kind of the, what I feel like you're pointing out is that there's a section in chapter one where I talk about what it takes to go from. belief to knowledge. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yeah, let's talk about that. Okay. So it's very context dependent. So it depends what kind of beliefs you have, what evidence is needed for people to call it knowledge. Like if you, suppose you believe it's the weather is hot outside

today. Well, that's easy to verify. You can check a thermometer or just go outside and feel for yourself. So then we would say that you know, know what the weather is like. It's not a belief anymore. But in other contexts, like suppose you're pretty sure you have strep throat, but you don't really know until you, you know, get a swab and they do a culture sample and then they can either confirm or disconfirm it. And then there's like another context. Like say it's a, you're doing mathematics, then the kind of evidence you need for mathematics is a proof. If the proof checks out, if experienced mathematicians can follow it, then you can say that your belief in that you've solved some mathematical problem has been substantiated by evidence.

And then there are other contexts like, say, like in the art world, where, there are some, you know, objective things you can say about the paintings, for example, like that it was painted at this time, it has these colors. But ultimately, it's kind of a subjective judgment. So that those beliefs about which paintings are beautiful, those, you know, we don't really, we can't really point to evidence. Like, it's just the best evidence you have as well. that's my opinion.

And so the, you could say the evidence is, is weak, or we shouldn't put too much conviction into beliefs that, where we don't have a way of backing up, backing them up with evidence. And that those are the kinds of beliefs that we find in religion very frequently is beliefs that,

where the, it's not even clear what kind of evidence we'd need to confirm them. And so just based on this structural problem, if we can't find the evidence, that's why we shouldn't put too much conviction in our religious beliefs. Like that's kind of the basis of the argument. It's like since we can't find evidence to confirm or disconfirm them, like that are, it's not bad to have beliefs, but we should hold them with less conviction. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. To my mind, it brings forth the question. Like, what beliefs have changed since you wrote this book or have your beliefs changed when you wrote this book? Or what beliefs did you struggle with when writing this book? Okay, that's an interesting question. Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess it's, it's for me, like, personally, it's always been a question of communication. Like, can I explain myself clearly enough? Like, I kind of, as soon as I had read James Carst's book, I felt like I had a vision of what, what developing his argument could turn into. Like, I had a sense of, you know, this is going to be a, you know, this is going to be a, fruitful direction to develop my argument, to perhaps write a book and address. But, you know, always the challenge for me was like, would anybody be able to understand it?

Like, I'm not a great writer. Like, I'm okay, I guess, but I don't see myself as a great writer. And so I made a lot of use of the large language models, the AI tools that are available for writing. to try to clarify my writing. And, you know, one thing I really struggled with is, like, breaking arguments down at the right pace. Like, what's the right pace to explain something so that people are able to follow it and, you know, to have the right sequence of logical arguments

and not to be redundant, but also not to leave anything out? Like, these were real challenges for me, like, as a not great writer. and I feel like I've improved and I've learned a lot from using these AI tools, but I still feel like I'm not a great writer and I need to lean heavily on beta readers and I hired a professional editor and the AI tools help me a lot too. So just like getting my ideas across seems like a major challenge. I wasn't sure if I could do it. I think you did do it.

And I think there's like 30 pages of footnotes to prove it. Like it's so well documented and sourced. You can find out everything in there, like where you're getting your information from. I like the way the book is broken down and you have like authors field notes. And for me, for me, I'm the type of reader who like I'll read something and then I got to set the book down for a minute to think about it. Like I'm like, oh, he's the referencing panicker. Who's this guy panicked? Or then I've got to go and find out who this guy was

and learn about his journey. But that to me is the hallmark of a good book is that it leads me down these other trails. And I think that from what I have read so far, like that it's done great in there. I found myself skipping back and forth as well too. Like, what is this about Santo Dime here? I know a little bit about that.

Let me go in like research what this part is. I'm like, oh, I never heard that part before. So I would caution you judging yourself against other writers. Because, like, you're uniquely your writer. And I think your writing goes specifically to individuals that resonate with that message. So don't downplay it. I think the writing is awesome in there. Okay.

But, like, it's, I guess I'm trying to be modest in the sense that, like, like, what you're seeing is my writing, but it's like my writing plus, you know, like 19 beta readers. And, like, there's been a lot of people that have contributed to this besides, besides my ideas, like in the AI tools and stuff. So I'm glad it's resonating for you. And I definitely wanted to make a... I wanted to do something that's completely different from these other New Age books

that don't have any citations or just make analogies between, you know, Laoze and Rumi or something like that. It's interesting that you label it new age. Like what is your definition of new age? Like what, is that what you would categorize it as? Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure my book fits that category, but no, there's,

I guess the kind of books I'm thinking of are, you know, books that talk about meditation and psychology and self-improvement, like those kinds of books. Yeah. And some of them are well researched. Like not all of them are, you know, just someone's opinion that they wrote down and tried to sound authoritative. But there are many that are not very well sourced also. Of course.

You know, one thing that I really like about your book and talking to you is that you bring a whole different world of experience. Like you have experience in altered states of consciousness. You also have experience in IFS. And it seems that when you put all of those together, a lot of the times I talk to individuals that may have a really long-term relationship with psychedelics or they may have a really long history in academics. But it seems like you're bridging that gap.

You've published all these papers on like neuroscience. You've got tons of published papers out there. And I think that all of those things together bring a unique response to like, here's how I'm seeing the ideas of beliefs playing out in religion. and here's what I think is different about it. That's a pretty unique experience to have all those things together. Yeah, that was definitely a goal for the book is to integrate and show connections between fields that had not been very well connected before.

And so the chapter two where I go into internal family systems, I kind of introduce the chapter as like a possible tangent. like that it's not the main thing, but then as the book develops, readers will notice that IFS keeps reappearing and is actually turns out to be like the central or kind of the thread that connects everything. It almost seems like a bridge between like the indigenous practice

with using, say, ayahuasca or psilocybin with like the Western tradition of like these different systems. Do you see that if you were to speculate on the future or maybe in your practice, do you see potentially some of these substances being very useful for Western medicine, like therapy or PTSD or just family dynamics like abuse or the kind of stuff we see a lot in Western medicine people go on to therapists for? Can we integrate some of these substances in there? Are you hopeful for that? Yeah, I'm, I'm, you know, I would be supportive of, you know, greater access to psychedelics and, you know, for in any of the various channels, like either to Western medicine or through religion, through, I just feel like psychedelics are extremely useful tools for understanding the minds. And I wouldn't want anyone to feel like they couldn't access them. Like they're just such valuable tools.

Yeah. Is that to address your question? I'm not sure. Yeah. It totally does. I think a lot of people are skeptical and right and maybe fearful of it a little bit. You know, they're fearful of them because they come with a stigma. they come with possible real transformation.

And I think, let's riff on this for a minute, this idea of transformation. Like that's a pretty big word to throw out there. But it comes with real risks, you know, like safety include. When I say transformation, what do you think about? Yeah, I mean, it is dangerous. You're giving up what you were and you're becoming something new. So, yeah, of course, that could be.

seem threatening to part that are comfortable with how things have been, who are comfortable with more stable lifestyle. But, you know, these are fears that we can talk about, you can talk about with the therapist and where did that fear come from? When, when, you know, where did you learn that fear to fear transformation? When did you first notice that fear coming up? You know, when in your past, like, is there any, are there any memories that are particularly associated with that? So you can just approach it through IFS techniques.

Yeah. You know, there's no, I heard a quote a while back that there's no informed consent for existential risk. You know, we talk about like, this is one thing I think my audience that I've been talking to some people in my audience about, about psychedelics or transformation is that we really worry about what substance you're taking.

And everybody wants the consent form. I want to know what it is. And I understand that 100%. It's an important thing to have informed consent. But I don't think enough people talk about the informed consent for, existential risk. Like you could theoretically take ayahuasca or you could take psilocybin and then decide you want to leave your marriage. You want to leave your job. Just a real risk of becoming a radically new

person. And I don't think enough people really talk about that on that aspect. What are your, what are your thoughts on that? Is that even true? Or what do you think? Um, I mean, uh, I mean, there probably are cases, you know, people making those kinds of big decisions after, you know, gaining a new perspective. Hmm. So what is the, so the concern is like that you could become a completely different person that you don't even recognize. I think that, I mean, I guess it could be a risk, but like, would it help to approach altered states more gradually? Like for people that have that concern,

maybe they should go slower. Maybe they should start with a meditation practice and see how that develops first. Like it's the kind of hypothetical you're posing. It sounds like someone with no experience in altered states is going to, you know, a three-day ayahuasca intensive and like becoming very destabilized. And so, like, I would wonder, like, why is it so urgent

to dive into the deep end? You know, why not go slower? Yeah. It just seems to me on some level, like, when we look at, maybe it's because I'm watching a lot of the sensationalism of a lot of these retreats popping up and people going there and having these experiences and a lot of it could just be sensationalist,

but it seems like people are diving into long three-day journeys with maybe no experience. So that that's, you know, that scenario where my book does have some recommendations. Like I do suggest a progressive challenge so that you should What I recommend is how to do some internal family systems work first, get a talk therapist, and start to explore your inner landscape, and then try practicing meditation, see if you can kind of hold space for your parts without the therapist being present.

And only once you feel comfortable with that, then you might try this cannabis blend that I recommend in the book that is, I feel it's kind of like a more stable blend that doesn't cause the munchies. That is, is, like, it's, my sense is like, it doesn't really demand anything from you. Like in terms of, you know, navigating the psychedelic experience, it's, it's a very simple, like, people can enjoy relaxation. That just gives you that sense of relaxation. It's very easy to enjoy. And it just gets you a little familiarity with psychedelics.

It's probably pretty easy for beginners. And then once you are comfortable with those kinds of experiences, only then should you consider the more transformative and powerful psychedelic. You know, it's a traditional psychedelic, like psilocybin and LSD and ayahuasca. Yeah, that's well said. I think that's a great strategy for people to sort of sneak up on it a little bit. I've learned that so much of this seeking is therapeutic is actually the substance or something.

Like, why do you want to change? What is it about this particular transformational experience that you want to get out of it? And I think that finding whether it's a cannabis blend like you talk about in the book or whether it's seeking a retreat center or looking for a therapist, so much goodness comes out of the seeking, like looking for a place that fits with you, looking for a substance, reading about what that substance can do. You know, it's a lot of the journey, I think. What are your thoughts on the seeking for the substance?

Sure. It's very important to develop like a clarity of intention. Like what do you, yeah, what are you coming to these experiences to get out of them? That, that's, I mean, that's, because these substances are so powerful, like if you, if you don't have a sense of direction, then, you know, that they can reorganize your belief system. And if you don't take any control of that, you can end up drifting, you know, tipping into psychosis because, you know, these drugs are very powerful. So like I think it's important when you're approaching them

to have clear intentions. And one intention that I suggest is the intention of trying to stay with consensus reality. I think that's a very sensible intention to bring into these experiences. I agree. In the book you write that the spiritual path isn't about accumulating answers, but becoming capable of living with deeper questions. Have we mistaken certainty for wisdom?

I mean, it's something you have to be constantly guarding yourself against, I think, It's not, you can never say you're really safe from that error that confusing certainty and wisdom. So, yeah, that's definitely a risk. In your opinion, what is the difference between conviction and captivity? Like, at what point does a belief stop serving us and begin possessing us? I mean, that's what you should be asking yourself all the time, right? That's true. I,

yeah, I mean, the mind is so inventive. Like, I, I couldn't give you, you know, any more specific guidance because, like, we are so, we seem to have such

genius capacity for self-deception. Like, it's so, it's so easy to, you know, you end up believing things that are, you know, irrational or even self-destructive. Yeah. Do you think modern culture suffers less from a crisis of meaning than from a crisis of tolerating mystery? Okay. Interesting question.

I wonder if I can take that in a different direction. Whatever direction you want, man. It's just a suggestion. Okay. So, I mean, to me, this gets back to what this opportunity that artificial intelligence has given us with these large language models. Finally, we have AI that is, you know, it's performing as well as doctors or lawyers or, you know, scientists. Like, it does amazing computer programming. like it's really showing remarkable levels of intelligence.

And I think this points to, it gives us a perspective in the sense that intelligence is no longer solely associated with a person. So it used to be that people were intelligent. Like I'm a smart person. I published papers. I got a PhD. Right. But then now that we have these AI tools,

Like that's no longer, my intelligence is no longer so unique and amazing. Like, you know, any teenager can talk to, you know, a chat GPT or something and tap into intelligence bigger than mine, right? Like there, no one can compete with artificial intelligence these days. Right, right. It's so superhuman. And so how should we value people, you know, with this new perspective? Like if you were interviewing Elon Musk, then, you know, would you be nervous about it? Probably.

I would more than likely would. Yeah. And so why is that? So that's because we still have this, we're still stuck in this thinking that's aligned with evolution, like that might makes right, that money is power, that intelligence means success. Like we still have those assumptions that are kind of built into our mindset.

But should we still sustain those? Like should we maybe revisit those assumptions in light of this perspective that now we have these AI agents that are, you know, more intelligent than Elon Musk in some ways? Yeah. So so this makes me wonder, like, should we see people through that evolutionary lens? Like the most intelligent people, you know, are the most intelligent people, you know, are the most. worthwhile or you know like when Elon Musk went through and destroyed USAID right I mean that from a evolutionary perspective yeah sure like these these people weren't worth saving in in Africa they were poor they they were not well educated they

They were in very challenging conditions. So from an evolutionary perspective, why should they continue to exist? Let's just cut off age to them. But maybe we should reconsider in light of artificial intelligence that these poor people in Africa, they could also have intelligence. And maybe just being human. being alive is worthy of some dignity

maybe we could consider that perspective as well I'm all for it I think far too much in this world we see people as it seems to me we've gone really deep down the rabbit hole of seeing people as numbers or people as productionary units

instead of like the true beauty that is human nature Like each individual has a unique lens of experience that we can all learn from. But when we just see them as numbers or productivity units, like we lose all that. Yeah, or it's like resumes. Yeah, totally. See people's resumes, yeah. Or and then, so I think the psychedelic experience helps with that too because, you know,

you can just enjoy being in community with people without thinking about, oh, this person is smarter or more wealthy than me. Like you can just enjoy their presence and, yeah, what they, what their presence brings to the sensitive community. Yeah, on the topic of billionaires, I thought you made a point that I kind of laughed out loud when you were talking about Peter Thiel going for longevity, but also like slashing Medicare for people, you know? It's interesting. There is a sort of parallel between AI and psychedelics. I almost feel like there are two different intelligences, but sort of teaching us the same thing in some ways.

What is your thoughts on the relationship between psychedelics and AI? Or do you have one? Yeah, I agree with you. I see very direct parallels from a psychological perspective in the sense that so that they both are kind of instances of externalization. And externalization is a technique that is frequently used with when you're doing plate therapy with little kids. You give them, like their little kids are not good at talking about what's happening at home

and what they're struggling with. But what you can do is you can put them in front of a sand tray with little characters that they can manipulate. And then you can encourage them to talk about what's happening at home, like through enacting little plays you know like little plays with their telling stories through the the

little characters there in the in the San Trey and so in my mind it's like AI is doing the same thing for us like kind of it's it's a externalization of intelligence so for you know for the first time

in in history like we are able to see intelligence is outside us. It's external, and that helps us recognize that our own intelligence is something we have, not something we are.

It's a small but key distinction. And I think psychedelics are also a way of helping, they're like a controlled chaos that we can introduce into our life. And in this normal ordinary perception, we can realize that, oh, this is, this is not something we are,

but it's just something we happen to have as is, you know, being in an ordinary state of mind. So you have ordinary perception. If you're in a different state of mind, then if you, say, if you've taken cannabis, then you feel much more relaxed than you otherwise should. So it's like it introduces a controlled chaos that lets us see the part of ourselves that are eternal, that are most unchanging. So it gives us more clarity about our true self, the self that is always present and is always unchanging.

Yeah, that's really well said. I know on some of my deeper journeys, like I feel this bigger connection to everything. Like, I exist and all that exists. You know, and you can, you can feel it. It's hard to put into words. But the same thing if I'm using AI, it's like, I'm not consulting some sort of alien intelligence. I am consulting the amalgamation of everybody that came before me. Like, I could, I could talk to Shakespeare or I could talk to Terrence McKenna and I can put them all in a room and we can have a discussion. And it's really getting in touch with like everything before me. I could even

invent people from 2035, I've done it and talk to them. You know, so it's those two things together. I'm like, wow, both of these, both of these things are just being in touch with everything. It's really pretty beautiful, in my opinion. Okay. Well, I feel like you've kind of smashed together two, two things that are, I'm not sure those are related, actually. Okay, tell me why. So in the first instance, you were talking about kind of this awareness of non-duality that you, the people tend to report when this boundary between self and other dissolves. And there's certain drugs like 5MEODMT can dissolve this boundary very reliably. And people report, you know, this non-dual experience. And then, but then, then you were suggesting that similar to artificial intelligence that you can talk to many different people.

Oh, I see what you're saying. So that it feels like there's, there's less of a boundary between you and all these people you could potentially talk to. Is that kind of what you were getting at? Is that the analogy? Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you said boundary dissolving. In the first instance, it's like I can look at myself or look at this lamp. I can look at myself or look at this tree outside.

And I see them because of my language as two existing objects that are not connected. But in the psychedelic experience, I realize that I'm part of that tree. Like I didn't come into this world. I came out of it the same way the tree did. And when I'm using AI, I realize I'm not necessarily talking to like an alien intelligence, but I'm talking to a collection of people that are like me, that are humans, that came from the same place. So I get to feel, at least in my lens or in my experience,

I get to feel as if, oh, I'm actually part of them. Like, I can take what they have learned or I can learn from them, but I feel as if I am part of both of them. And that comes from using both of those things. I guess the same boundary is dissolved. Hmm. Okay. or a me a way to think about it is that just like we can separate,

now we can separate intelligence from a person, like it can be outside of us, but then we can go to that external intelligence and kind of become absorbed in it so that we feel like identical with that super intelligence, with that, what's a collection of, all the, you know, all the people, all the authors who've written all these books. Yeah, that we can feel kind of at one with all those people. Yeah, that, I see where you're going

with that. You know what another part that sort of you had mentioned in the beginning about writing and, and what that experience is like, it brings up this idea of language. And that's something that AI and psychedelics do is it takes us to this place beyond language. Like, there's no words to describe or language seems to fail at times when you're when you're in these deep journeys or be it meditation or something like that like you can't there's a word for that i forgot what that word's called when the ineffable yes thank you but what do you think is the relationship between people's beliefs and the ineffable like maybe people's beliefs are a crude interpretation of the ineffable um sure they they could be i'm not sure there's any

there's any like rule that it has to be that way. Yeah, so yeah, I'm not sure where you're going with this. I'm just riffing. It's awesome to get to talk to people and get their thoughts on them. Someone especially as accomplished as you, so I thought I'd throw out some of these things. Okay. Let me jump over here. I got a few people chiming in some chat in the chat over here.

Let's bring some of these people on this stage and see what they have to say. say. Lucas says, you've spoken about open inquiry. Is there anything that should never be questioned? Huh. I don't know. I'm drawing a blank here. Maybe, you know, I don't want to say, you know, never say never. I mean, there's certain, like it depends on the context, I guess. Like, I guess, I guess, You know, if you're doing a podcast for 12-year-olds, then, you know, you probably want to tailor it to their interests. That's the only thing I could think of. But what do you think, George? I think that, I think it depends on the group setting you're in.

And I have problems with this too sometimes. Like, how do you, how, if you're like in a group chat or something or amongst a group of strangers, how do you navigate the emotional boundaries of overlapping social circles? I don't know. I guess you have to be confident with the people you're around, but I'm a big fan of just asking the questions you want. And I don't think anything should be off the table. I think you should be able to ask whatever you want to ask.

And if people get mad at you, then maybe find out why they're mad at you. Maybe that opens the door to a better discussion. But Luca, that's that's that's. what I think. Joshua, can you give us a breakdown of what open inquiry is for people that may not understand what it is? Yeah. So the way of open inquiry is like a religion, like a hypothetical religion that I

develop in the book is like an example that's not like a fully serious proposal, but to kind of if we were going to reinvent religion from scratch, you know, starting from a blank slate, what could it look like? And so it's kind of a thought experiment. And I develop it in like three or four steps in different places in the book. Does that make sense? Yeah, it totally does. Who else do I got over here? Ahmed, thanks for being here. He says,

can mystery unite religions where beliefs divide them? Yeah, I mean, that sounds plausible to me. Yeah. I don't know. I could think of,

and it seems like there's lots of examples we could think of. Like if you're open to questioning, then that would be something that is, you know, easy for people to agree on. If you, if they're, suppose, the way you understand the Bible is like through memorization or the Koran is through, you know, memorization and kind of the approach that a lawyer would take, then I'm sure you can find ways to disagree about what those books say. So, yeah, it seems like that that's a,

You can find lots of examples of how that could be true. Yeah. I think I would add, Ahmed, I think that there's something unique to the individual about the mystery, where a belief, like you said, might be something people memorize or something people drill into other people, like the belief. But each individual has a relationship with the mystery that is, like, unique to them.

That might be their own interpretation of it. That's where I would say that's where it unites. but Ahmad thanks for being here. Eva coming all the way from Stockholm, she says if uncertainty is psychologically uncomfortable, why might it also be spiritually necessary? Well, okay, so I think uncertainty is psychologically uncomfortable until you get used to it.

Like I think you can get used to it. It's an acquired taste. It's not as like immediately appealing is the feeling of confidence. Like everyone appreciates the feeling of confidence. People are like, yeah, we love confidence. But uncertainty is something you can get used to. And you can, if you spend a little time splashing in the pool,

then you can begin to find some comfort in uncertainty as well. And I think part of being comfortable with uncertainty is what helps with that is understanding your process beliefs better. Like if you can study the process beliefs and if you have, it can develop confidence in the process beliefs, then the uncertainty associated with the content beliefs becomes more tolerable.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Thank you, Eva. Eva, I'm saying that right, Eva? Thank you for that. another one coming in from this one comes from Mateo Mateo says can a society

organized around certainty ever remain genuinely free I mean that's a like I'm trying to picture what that hypothetical even looks like what does a society organized around certainty look like I think laws and like

sort of a it almost seems to me Mateo that it's sort of almost around the idea of like authority. You know what I mean? Like certainty kind of comes from authority. So are you really free if you're under like certain laws? Or maybe look at like a cult or like even some sort of really spin-offs of religion.

Like they have this sort of certainty about you must ask for permission for this. You must have this. So I guess the person going there, are they really free? Okay. And then I guess the other part of the question is like what? What does freedom mean to this person? Like how do they define freedom? So it just feels like the question is under-constrained.

Like we don't really know what a society-organized certainty looks like. And then what do they mean by freedom? So again, and I have kind of a way of addressing the freedom question in my book. It's about whether you're unblended, your part. Is that something that I should talk about, George? Yeah, of course it is. That's exactly what we should talk about. Okay. Right. So, so this is a concept from internal family systems where, let me just give an example. Suppose I had a part of myself that was terrified with public speaking. So if I'm,

if I became blended with that part, then, then I might freeze up. I wouldn't know what to say. I wouldn't perform well in such interview situations. But if I can stay unblended from that part that's terrified, well, I'll still feel its fear, but it won't take over my behavior. That's a difference. So I'll still be feeling this part and listening to its concerns and trying to address them,

but from a little emotional distance. And that's a key difference, and that's so that, so if I can do that, then I would be unblended from that part. So like, so it wouldn't be controlling my behavior. And when, when you,

when you talk about the word freedom, so what comes to my mind is freedom means to be, self-led, which means that you are infrequently taken over by your parts. You're infrequently blended with them. And the way to move towards a more self-led mindset or psychology, the way to do that is to get to know your parts better and to build a trusting relationship. with all the parts of yourself. Does that make sense, George?

Yeah, totally. I think, know thyself, right? Like you got to know all your parts and understand where this maybe irrational fear is coming from or where the certainty is coming from or how it got installed there. It almost sounds like disassociation in some ways.

Like you want to disassociate the fear from the person speaking. Yes, yes. So in internal, family systems is very similar to, like, dissociation. It's the same kind of idea. But the internal family system's perspective is that this way we're splitting our personality into parts, that's like normal.

It's not a reflection of dysfunction. Whereas with people who are suffering from dissociation, they, you know, due to to maybe a challenging history growing up. Or their parts are really, they're like more split than they'd like. They're, you know, they may have parts that are walled off by amnesiac barriers. And they can work with psychologists to help or talk therapists to help to reduce those barriers and have more natural boundaries between their parts. But we don't really see, in internal family systems,

we don't see the personality is unified, but is a collaboration of all our parts kind of working together. For me, it brings up a favorite question of mine, talking to authors and interesting people. What was, in this, in the, this book when you were writing it during the whole phase of it like what area was your favorite part like was it researching it was there a certain chapter was there something certain something about this book that was like the favorite part to write about yeah for sure i mean um like uh kind of the core

argument was important to me but what i really um went went all out is for the humor like the the last chapter and I have a lot of silly footnotes in there and I really enjoyed doing that part of the book. The funny stuff and yeah, somehow I managed to read it for the audiobook, but when I was writing it, like I would just become overcome by laughter, many occasions and have to have to take a break because I was just cracking myself up so much. It reminds me of the old Reader's Digest where it says laughter is the best medicine. You know, it's some of my favorite things. You know what, even in tragedy sometimes, too, you find yourself just die and laughing

because that's all that's left is to laugh. Yeah. What? That's an awesome segue to. how do you feel about laughter in overcoming difficult situations or in trauma or in the work that you do? Is that a tool that you use when you're working with people? Is that something that you encounter in deeper the states of consciousness? Or what is your relationship to humor?

I'm not sure I'd use it like therapeutically in the sense of like a kind of like a gratitude practice or a laughter practice. I'm not sure I'd recommend that because to me, like it's, it's more of the, it's not so much a cause, but like an effect of something funny. So, like, we don't want to get cause and effect reversed here. That's what I'm worried about. But does that address your question? I can't remember what you're asking. Yeah, I was just talking about our relationship to humor, which it sort of drives this another point too. I have lots of friends in the psychedelic community,

and often we'll talk about the difference between the medical container and the recreational container. And the thought is, the thread is, like recreational use can be almost as therapeutic as medicinal use. At least that's what me and my friends started to think about. What are your thoughts? Yeah.

I mean, these categories, I think, are largely a function of how the drugs are currently legally, regulated. So it doesn't necessarily, you know, make sense as a user. But yeah, if you're, if you're working for the psilocybin service in Oregon or Colorado, then you want to frame what you're doing as is, I guess, in Oregon, it's not, it's specifically not a medical thing. But just like within the, however the, the, however, the, it's legally prescribed to do. Like you want to meet the,

check off the boxes. Like me describe what you're doing is what the law prescribes, the kind of practice that the law prescribes. Yeah, I agree. It's interesting to see where we are now with some of these measures on ballots to legalize or at least deschedule, some of these substances.

It's interesting. You have any thoughts on how it might roll out for people or anything you're hopeful for? I mean, I have hopes. Like the DEA will be dissolved and like that will step beyond that chapter of our country's history, but I don't know when that's going to happen.

Yeah. Sometimes I worry that. And I realize worrying is a fruitless thing to do. But, you know, it seems that because they are so destabilizing, they cause a real threat to the natural order. You know, at least in my own experience, when I began my relationship with psychedelics and even today, like it just to me sort of makes me think, like, man,

all these just confined spaces. Like it makes me see through the bullshit. Maybe I see more corruption or maybe I'm just skeptical or maybe I'm cynical. But I think that psychedelics on some level remove the boundaries and make you go, this is dumb. Like, why are we doing this? And I think that that could be a catalyst for not letting these things out into the mainstream. Is that too conspiratorial? Or what are your thoughts?

Well, I mean, I think that's what happened in the 60s. I think so too. But, you know, hopefully we've moved beyond that. And, you know, the toothpaste is out of the tube and you can't put it back anymore. So we have to move to legalize, you know, regulate and educate people. Like, yeah, these substances are destabilizing, and people need to know about that. And they shouldn't be using them, you know, without respecting the power and the risks. Like just like with alcohol.

Yeah. Right? So like you should, you should know that, you know, drunk driving is very dangerous and and don't do it. Like that's also like that's, you know, alcohol is dangerous and these drugs are also dangerous. So we need to educate. So the question earlier was what was your favorite part to write about this book? Was there some part of this book that was like really challenging or like you thought twice

about writing about? or that you were like, oh, man, I got to write about this. Well, chapter five was probably the most difficult chapter, just because I didn't know how to organize it. And I really felt like the AI agents where the chat GPT quad was incredibly helpful in just like the large-scale organization of the chapter. I probably reorganized it two or three times. and like the material is so confusing

and like seeing how to order it in the way that is going to be easier for readers to absorb like that was I'm you know I it was

um you know I think the the chatbots were actually you know made made some novel or you know made a real contributions there in terms of organizing the material. Like, I don't know if I could have done it as well without their help.

Yeah, I agree. I got in some hot water in the Writers Guild I'm in because we were talking about the use of AI and writing. And a lot of people were, you know, there was a lot of tropes like, oh, if you use AI, then your own cognitive ability is going to atrophy and it doesn't get across the actual points. but I made the case of like, or what if it's the greatest possible tool

we've ever had at our disposal and you're not using it? Like when I use... You're not writing an ambitious enough book. That's the issue. Well said. Well said. It's interesting to think about that dichotomy right now

about people using AI in different ways. Obviously, if you... Here to me is the difference. Like if you just put in like a write this, that's pretty much slop. But if you're using it as an incredible, you have a great analogy. Like in the back of the book, you speak about a chef using the necessary tools in order to put together their kitchen and put together a meal.

If AI is used in that same way, like you just explained a moment ago, about organizing certain ways coming up on using Hemingway and these types of wordsmithing out there that really help bring across. the best possible visual analogy of something. Like, why wouldn't you use that? Yeah. Yeah, and like another way that it was, yeah, I was super helpful is like I would say,

you know, go through this chapter and list all the weaknesses and then I'd go through and address all of them really carefully. Right. And then I'd do it again. And again and again, like keep looking for weaknesses until like the writing was strong. Yeah. I think it's an amazing tool.

and I hope more people become comfortable sharing that they use it because I would imagine everybody's on some level using it and you're sort of hamstring in yourself if you're not. Yeah, but the, I mean, you can't underestimate the economic dislocation that people are suffering from. It must be, you know, awful for people that have, you know, put in, you know, four, six, eight years at a university and suddenly, you know, their skills are,

can be largely duplicated by a 12-year-old now. It's like it must be devastating. So like something has to change with our economic system to accommodate this. Yeah, isn't it interesting how the large AI corporations can use all copyrighted material and have no consequences, but an individual, you know, that's a whole other ball game over there. I don't know how you change that. I don't know how you make it more fair or I don't. I'm eager to see what happens, but I don't know.

Yeah, I would hesitate to make any predictions, but something needs to change. Yeah, I agree. We got some more people chime in and over. Let's bring them back on the stage over here. Here's who I got. Aisha, Aisha from Detroit says, can belief reduction make someone kinder or only more uncertain? Oh, interesting. Well, in my mind, the kindness or the compassion,

the most likely place for that to come to develop is when people have this experience of becoming one with the greater being, like when the boundary between self and other is dissolved, and then you may develop the sense that we're all, you know, part of a greater being. And I think that experience has a potential to develop the compassion in people. But yeah, it's not, like, hesitating to say that with confidence, because we have to see how that plays out. But that's kind of my, that's where I've located the potential source of compassion in the book.

Yeah. Thank you for that, Aisha. James coming from Nashville, Tennessee, he says, if I lose enough beliefs, what remains? Well, that's a good question. Are you curious to find out? Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah. That's where courage comes in, I think.

Yes. Yes. It does take some courage. And it's not like you, you don't have, like, I don't, my head is not completely absent of beliefs. That's not what happens. But maybe you have much more conviction in process beliefs than in content beliefs. And you can still have content beliefs.

Maybe you just consider them. as low conviction. Like, yeah, I'm not sure if there's something like reincarnation, but I'm, you know, kind of would tend to believe it, but I don't have a strong conviction about it. That's kind of a low conviction metaphysical belief. There's no problem having that as long as it, you know, as long as he keeps it in, you know,

given that we don't have any evidence for or against, like acknowledging that part of it. I think it's fine to keep some beliefs like that. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. If I lose enough beliefs, what exactly remains? You know what James? I would say to that.

Like, I would say that that sort of makes me think of the process of becoming. You know what I mean by that? Like, the process of becoming, like, that's losing or actively getting rid of some beliefs that don't serve you. And I don't think you have room for more growth unless you get rid of things. Maybe that's the process of transformation, but actively,

transformation to me, James, and I know it's kind of a maybe a little tangent, James, but I think what you're talking about is transformations. If I lose enough beliefs, and that's scary. Like what happens when you actively let go of these beliefs? You're sort of letting part of yourself die, But that's the only way to move forward. That's the only way to become a better version of yourself

is to let go or even kill off some of these ideas that you're holding that aren't even yours. So I would say what remains is the becoming of a better version of yourself. What do you think, Joshua? Yeah, I mean, you know, wherever you go, there you are. It's important to remember that. So no matter how many beliefs you lose, like that's just going to bring you closer to yourself.

Yeah. So I think that could be a reassuring way to look at it, reassuring perspective. Yeah. You know, that brings up another question for me is how do you protect yourself against the contagious charisma of other people's beliefs? Yeah, I'm not sure I have an answer for that.

Like it's, you know, everyone has to, confront that challenge on a on a case-by-case basis. I discuss, I have like a corruption toolkit in the appendix of my book. Yes, you do. I try to kind of boil it down to the tools that have been used by Colts in the past. Yes. And so at least readers are hopefully familiar with how they can get trapped in these belief systems, but

you know, really that's something that everyone that's a challenge. Everyone has to confront on their own. So I'll try to give you the tools to recognize what's happening, but it's really up to you.

Yeah. Is it safe territory for you and I to talk about Colt a little bit? I don't want to, I don't want to, okay. So the reason I ask is because I was recently in a group where I brought up We were talking about safety and psychedelics, and I brought up the word cult. People were like, look, there's people dying and have historically died in like psychedelic

cults. And my argument was like, it's not so much the substance they're taking, but like why is the person going to that cult? Like, that's a bigger issue, I think. And if you want to stop people from dying and cults, like you should try to figure out why they're going there. But immediately upon bringing that up, I had someone reach out or in the middle of the conversation, be like, I can't talk about this.

And then the whole conversation stopped. So just that type of bringing something up like that, the word cult can offend people. That's why I brought it up and wanted to ask. But yeah, that corruption toolkit that you have, I think lays out an incredible way of which ideas become weaponized, man. Yeah. And, like I have a figure, a figure. or 23 at the beginning of that appendix, which tries to show the relationship between all the tools.

And the main, like if you just see which are the most central things, like the main thing is autonomy erosion. So like becoming dependent on people, that's like a red flag. And also shame weaponization. those are the two kind of corruption tools that are most frequently applied I think. So like in shame like an example of shame weaponization would be that

you're not getting the results you want because you're not doing the practice correctly or something like that and just like making it the own person's fault, like locating the fault at the aspirant, the student, the student is at fault for being an inadequate student. That's kind of the archetype of shame weaponization. Yeah. What are some other ones

you have on that chart? I wish I had the visual because I would put it up on stage for people, but maybe you can just go through some of the other ones on there so people can be aware of them. Okay, well, like there's graduated secrecy. So some techniques are secret. Like the example is transcendental meditation, that group. They give out secret mantras. I don't know why they, why they're secret. Like it doesn't make any sense to me.

It's just a mantra. So, and I'm not saying that transcendental meditation is like a totally corrupt group. Like all these corruption tools, like they may be present to a greater or lesser extent. And, you know, some of, you know, people can benefit from transcendental meditation. So I'm not saying it's like a very black and white issue.

Like it's, that's one of the reasons I don't like the word cult is it makes it sound like a black and white. white issue, but it's really not. It's, there's lots of shades of gray. Like, people can be, you know, just like corporations. They can be doing good work in some ways and doing bad work in other ways. So, let's see. What are some other ones?

Like reality distortion, gas lighting. So, like, telling people how they are feeling instead of encouraging. encouraging them to look inside and find out. Like, George, you're, you've just been suffering through this whole podcast. It's been so hard for you. All my shame weaponization coming right at me. Yeah. Okay, another one is infalliability.

Like if I, you know, my opinions are infalliable and can't be, questions. That's some leaders will use that approach. And I don't know, should I keep going? I like them. I think that I think people should be aware of the techniques that are used, not only for nefarious reasons, but like you said earlier, they're also used in corporations or in families or in other sort of gatherings. You know, the word cult doesn't have to necessarily have a negative connotation to it as much of a behavioral system. You know, you see it everywhere. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And another one is crisis manufacturing. Love it. We, we, I don't know if it's, this is like the, my perceptions are accurate, but it seems like Donald Trump is like a pro at crisis manufacturing. Totally. Totally. Totally. And let's see, information restriction was another good one.

So like if you're only presented information that puts the group that you're following in a positive light. And let's see. What else we got here? claims of special access. So, like, you know, I have connections with the spirit world. Like, I can talk to angels and make things happen for you. That would be an example of special access. Yeah.

Or I can buy you a spirit animal. If you give me enough money, I can assign a spirit animal to you that will help guide you through the other. part of the world. Yeah. Yep, good example. In the tribalism, you know, like having strong in-group and out-group dynamics, you know, everyone in the group has a particular style of dress and, you know, maybe

hairstyle and stuff like that. I mean, you see, you know, monks that are practicing. I guess Western or, you know, Eastern monks. They often have a particular uniform that they wear. So I keep going here. Let's see. Like assets or surrender. So give me all your money.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or even buying the next tier. You know, sometimes I feel like, and I have felt this myself, like, oh, if I just could buy this course or if I could just buy access to this thing, then I would have this success. But more often than not, I'm not saying there's not courses or there's not things out there we're paying for. But a lot of the times you are sort of being sold this idea of what buying this thing will get you rather than what that thing will actually provide for you.

Yeah. And I've actually tried to address this concern in my book by trying to make it comprehensive and like revealing, like there's no like secrets or I haven't like tried to set up a sequel or anything. I just tried to lay it all out and say, you know, that,

that, that, the book is all you need. Yeah. Yeah. I've learned. I heard a good, psychedelics,

this is one thing that I have, I have learned. I don't know if it's true for anybody else, but it's been true for me on the topic of secrets is that, the secret is there is no secret. The secret's everywhere. It's everywhere for everybody to see at all times. And if you're willing to look, you can find it.

Anybody trying to sell you a secret, I would be cautious of that person. Yeah. That's a red flag. Totally. Totally. What about, let me ask you this on the topic of, we're all vulnerable because we all want different things.

But are there certain characteristics that you have noticed that maybe individuals, maybe individuals drawn into a cult have certain characteristics about them, like maybe low self-esteem. And I think we all suffer from all of these things and maybe we're all susceptible. But are there certain characteristics that you have noticed about people that really get involved in certain things? I mean, I think the fundamental dynamic is like the kind of parent-child dynamic that, or, you know, a student teacher in when, like, usually that's a healthy dynamic,

but when these corruption techniques get involved, then it can, you know, cause both the teacher to run into problems by becoming so grandiose and self-serving and also, you know, lock students into, a subservient dependent role. I think that's the, you know, the place where it starts. You know, it has to be a sort of intoxicating feeling to have people see you as the leader of something, you know, be it like a CEO, like a high-powered CEO, whether you're a

religious leader, because your reality is reality, even though it's not reality in actuality. And when you have people all around you telling, oh, you're so amazing or you're so great or you have the spiritual connection, at some point, I don't know how you stay out of that character. Like you're almost committed to that area. And you would probably gravitate towards these ideas of like, well, this is okay for me because I'm the leader. Yeah, it's very seductive. And, you know, it's seductive for the followers, too. Yep. So it's, it really fulfills important psychological needs that sometimes

don't find healthy expression. I guess that's the Robert Green's 48 laws of power coming into play right there. Have you read that book? It's pretty awesome. It's worthwhile for all my listeners out there. It's a cool book to check out.

I think it's called the 48 laws of power, but people should check it out. It's kind of a maybe a shield against some of these things over there. Who else? I got Linda. Linda coming from Seattle. Thanks Linda for being here. She says, is humility simply the willingness to be transformed by reality? I like that. I like how you put it. Thanks, Linda. Let's see, the willingness to be transformed by reality. I'm trying to think, like, is there more to humility than that? Is that sufficient?

This is the kind of questions that, like, AI tools are brilliant at. Like they can, you know, immediately do these compare and contrast comparisons, which are, like, I feel a bit stumped by this one. Like, it sounds like a good equivalence, but there's probably exceptions I can't think of off the top of my head. Hmm, humility. simply the willingness to be transformed by reality. That is, that's deep. When I think of humility, I think of the ability to, or the willingness to understand that you don't know.

You don't know. And does that mean you're transformed by reality? I don't know what reality would mean in that one. But it's a deep question. I guess if I was just coming off the cuff, I would agree with it. I would say that humility is the willingness to be transformed by a reality. It's the willingness to accept new information coming in that you didn't previously hold

and allowing it to sort of change the lens through which you see the world. Linda, you and I should talk. That's a pretty awesome question to think about right there. Thanks for being here. Linda, what about Tom? Tom coming from NYC. He says, does every belief eventually become an eye? if we stop questioning it.

I think we spoke to this a little bit, but what is your thoughts on that? Yeah, well, it depends on the taxonomy. We have to go back to the belief taxonomy. So different beliefs have different uses. So some beliefs are process beliefs, some are content beliefs, and we can have confidence in process beliefs.

That doesn't prevent us from, being open minded, like that, you know, being open minded could be considered a process belief. So does that kind of address the question, George? Yeah, I think so. I think it's a great one. Thanks, Tom, for saying that. What else do I got over here? I think I have maybe one or two more coming in.

And I also have something written down that I wanted. Well, here's a good one. Do psychedelics reduce belief or simply make us more vulnerable? to replacing one belief with another? Well, I think it depends on the psychedelic, first of all. But if we're talking about the classical psychedelics like psilocybin, LSD, and ayahuasca, DMT and ayahuasca, these are activate the serotonergic system, the 2A receptor,

but those psychedelics seem to increase conviction kind of across the board. So if you have beliefs that you are unaware of, they can help you notice them because they'll feel more salient. But then on the other extreme, like if you come into an experience having strong convictions, then those convictions might be reinforced and entrenched. if you're not work actively to prevent that from happening. So I think that that's how I, that's what I've seen in the research is that they, these particular kind of psychedelics, a increased conviction kind of across the board. So if you, wherever your beliefs start out, you'll have more conviction in them unless you are, you know,

careful to be mindful of the effects of the psychedelic and don't allow it to shift your conviction so much. If you are attentive to that effect, then it doesn't necessarily have to cause your convictions to shift in that way. But is that kind of tally with your experience, George? Yeah, I would throw it back to Carlos Castaneda in his series of awesome books back in the day on mysticism. And he talks about plants being allies. And I think each individual finds the right ally for themselves.

For me, it's been psilocybin, LSD, ayahuasca a little bit. Like, I don't, this is just my own relationship with ayahuasca, but I've done it a few times. But I've never sat with a ceremony. In fact, I'll just share people with how I've done it. I don't think I'm ready to do ayahuasca until I can make it. And so I grew banisterous copay black vine and I grew psychotropia varitis. Here's a tip for everybody. I'm not advocating drug use or anything, but if you want to grow psychotropa veritas, don't ever buy it from a seed. It'll never grow. You've got to buy a cutling. And so when I grew them, I grew them together and I brewed it multiple times. and the first time I brewed it, there was nothing there.

Maybe I got the recipe wrong with all my research. It was when the black wine was very young. So after further research, I realized it's not going to mature and there's not enough of the active ingredient in there to produce the psychoactive results that I wanted. A year later, I tried it again, and I definitely got the purging, right? That part was there.

But the after effects were not the, the classical effects that I read about from so many people are talked about. Like, I didn't have radical visions or anything. So, again, I probably got the recipe wrong on some level. But there definitely was some effects, maybe the harming. But there was definitely some psychoactive effects, but nothing in the visuals. And the third time was a little bit heavier on the, I never really got the long, intense visuals. The third time, much more purging and much more of a surreal.

Intuitive understanding of who I am and stuff like that, but I never got the visuals right. But for me, I don't feel I'm ready to do ayahuasca until I can brew it myself with the plants that I grew out there. But that's what I mean about allies. Everybody has a different relationship with allies. Sillocybin has been incredible for me through tragic experiences and moving through grief and anger and the whole Kubler-Ross pathway, the non-linear back and forth. and those have been allies for me. But I would, and again, set and setting everybody, I'm not a doctor, I'm not an academic, I'm not an expert,

I'm not telling you to do these things, but I'm just speaking to my relationship with them in that aspect. So I would say each individual will find what's right for them and what problem or what idea or what it is they're trying to solve if you seek guidance and professionalism, set and setting and figure all that out. But anything you would add to that? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Well, when you mentioned ayahuasca, like what comes up for me is, are you aware of THH? So there's, ayahuasca has a couple different psychedelics in it. I think the two main ones are DMT. Everyone knows about DMT. But THH is also very interesting. And it's not legally restricted in the U.S. You can just buy it.

You can buy it online. It's easy to get. And the full name is tetrahydroharmin. And it's so fascinating because maybe it has like antidepressant effects. It makes you feel largely sober. Like I think it could be. used, you know, daily without, without any, like, no one would even be able to know that you're on it, like, because it just makes you feel, you know, slightly optimistic, slightly more attentive.

It's a very interesting substance. Yeah. It's amazing to think about all of the naturally occurring substances that are out there that fundamentally change the lens to which we see the world, you know, just freely available right there. Joshua, this is, first off, I'm so grateful to get to talk to you. I'm so grateful for the papers you've published, for the book you've written, and getting to talk to you as really excited me for future conversations

and more collaborations and stuff. But I want to pose this last one to you. So someone, they're going to go down to the QR code that they can see right now online and they can scan that QR code and it'll take you right to the book or they can go to your website. But if someone reads your book, what is one or two or three of the takeaways you really want them to get from reading this? Well, if, you know, many people, they don't know how to reach religious experiences in a predictable, reliable way. like it's these experiences of beauty and awe and feeling connected to something larger than yourself.

Like, I want people to know that that's easily available now. Like that's kind of one of the takeaways of the book is that it's, you know, I've mapped out a path you can walk that where it's very predictable and reliable, like that you will get results, you will have a religious experience, you know, you can schedule it for next weekend and it will happen. That's right.

So to give people the autonomy to be able to access those important experiences. Yep. Fantastic. And where can people find you online? They got the QR code, but can you give us a website address or where they can buy the book

or where they can reach out to you personally? Yeah, the book has a website at unburdened.biz. It's unburdened.biz. And I would encourage you to look around the website. I put a lot of work into putting lots of goofy things on there. There's one thing that may be useful is like a book reading planner. So, like, you can plan your read, like, you decide which features of the book you want to read or skip over. And so there's a webpage that can help you make that choice.

So I encourage everyone who's interested, like, you can buy the book on the website or get it on, you know, wherever you buy books. And, yeah, and I've tried to make the website entertaining. And my contact information is also there. Ladies and gentlemen, everybody that hung out with us today, Mateo, Linda, everybody that chimed in over here, Mario, thank you all so much, Carlos, Rachel, Mike, and James. Thank you all so much for hanging. Tom from New York City, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. Joshua, please hang on briefly afterwards, but to everybody within the sound of my voice, go check out the book. What are you waiting for? Have a beautiful day, ladies and gentlemen. Aloha.